Redirect examination of Kato Kaelin (part 1)

📄 Redirect examination of Kato Kaelin (part 1) — Tuesday, November 19, 1996

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CIVIL\1996\NOV\19\REDIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-KATO-K.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 18 of 57

◀ Exhibit admission and housekeeping Cross-examination of Kato Kaelin (part 2) ▶

Witness: Brian "Kato" Kaelin
Examiner: Robert Baker
Called by: Defense • Date: Tuesday, November 19, 1996 • Utterances: 456

Robert Baker cross-examines Brian 'Kato' Kaelin in the civil trial, focusing primarily on impeaching his criminal trial testimony about OJ's demeanor regarding Nicole's tight dress at Sydney's recital — showing Kaelin told the grand jury OJ was 'joking and laughing,' not upset. Baker also establishes that Kaelin 'forsook' Nicole Brown Simpson for free rent at OJ's house, and elicits Kaelin's prior sworn testimony that OJ was not jealous of Nicole dating Marcus Allen or anyone else.

# 1 Q:

Good morning, sir.

# 2 A:

Morning.

# 3 Q:

Now, Mr. Kaelin, you are an actor, right?

# 4 A:

Correct.

# 5 Q:

Kind of a want-to-be actor, would that be fair?

# 6 A:

I studied. I don't know.

# 7 Q:

Okay. And you have your attorney here in the courtroom?

# 8 A:

Yes.

# 9 Q:

Is your agent here?

# 10 A:

No.

# 11 Q:

Okay. Now, in terms of -- in terms of your involvement in the O.J. Simpson case, you were interviewed on June 13, 1994 by a couple police officers, correct?

# 12 A:

Correct.

# 13 Q:

You were interviewed by Mr. Shapiro and Skip Taft on the 14th, correct?

# 14 A:

Correct.

# 15 Q:

You testified at the preliminary hearing under penalty of perjury in June of 1994, correct?

# 16 A:

Correct.

# 17 Q:

You testified at the preliminary hearing under penalty of perjury in July of 1994, correct?

# 18 A:

Correct.

# 19 Q:

And you testified at the criminal trial under penalty of perjury in -- was it February of 1994?

# 20 MR. LEONARD:

'95.

# 21 Q:

(BY MR. BAKER) '95, I'm sorry.

You testified in 1995 in the criminal trial, true?

# 22 A:

Correct.

# 23 Q:

All right. Now, you had -- before your deposition was given in this case, also under penalty of perjury, you spent what, eight, nine hours with Mr. Petrocelli?

# 24 A:

Correct.

# 25 Q:

And after that deposition was taken and before you got on the witness stand today, you spent how many more hours, about, with Mr. Petrocelli?

# 26 A:

I spent three and a half hours on Sunday, and an hour, probably, today.

# 27 Q:

And you went over and had breakfast with Mr. Medvene this morning across the street?

# 28 A:

I had to.

# 29 Q:

I hope they paid.

# 30 A:

I think so.

# 31 Q:

In terms of your testimony, you testified -- and I want to get to one area, then we'll go back and try to go through it chronologically.

You testified about Mr. Simpson, after he got back from the recital, talking about Nicole wearing tight fitting dresses. Remember that?

# 32 A:

Yes, I do.

# 33 Q:

And you told the grand jury in June, within two weeks of the murders occurring, that Mr. Simpson was joking, correct, when he was talking about the dresses?

# 34 A:

If I could see it. I said that.

# 35 Q:

Well, do you have a recollection of that, sir?

# 36 A:

I don't right now, no.

# 37 MR. BAKER:

Bring up, please, page 59, line 24 through page 60, line -- see right there.

# 38 (Transcript page displayed on TV screen.)

# 39 MR. BAKER:

Keep going. I'm sorry. Page 60, lines 1 through 15. Maybe that's --

# 40 MR. PETROCELLI:

Now, Your Honor, I don't mind this for ease of convenience, he ought to go to a specific place rather than scrolling through this transcript. It's not proper.

# 41 THE COURT:

If you could direct your operator to go to a particular location without scrolling.

# 42 MR. BAKER:

My technical operator hasn't followed my directions for the last 28 years.

KEY QUOTE

# 43 (Laughter)

# 44 MR. BAKER:

Did you go to page 60? Just bring it down. Yeah. Line 1.

# 45 (Transcript displayed on TV screen.)

# 46 Q:

(BY MR. BAKER) You just testified --

# 47 MR. BAKER:

It'd be there, when he was talking about "good-naturedly." Is that 59? Yeah, I'm sorry. Okay.

# 48 Q:

(BY MR. BAKER) Now, when she's going to be older, joking, like wearing tight fitting clothes, good-naturedly, like a grandma; that's what you were talking about Mr. Simpson in his conversation with you on the -- on June 12 after he had been to the recital, correct?

# 49 A:

That he said that, yes.

# 50 Q:

And then when you say good-naturedly, that's what he was acting like --

"A. Yes.

"Was he laughing?

"Yeah, joking and laughing."

# 51 Q:

Okay. Now, that was your testimony in June of 1994, about that tight dress incident, correct?

# 52 A:

Correct.

# 53 MR. BAKER:

Now, bring up the preliminary hearing, page 88, lines 23 to 28.

You can put it on the Elmo if you want.

# 54 (Transcript displayed on Elmo.)

# 55 MR. BAKER:

It starts, I think, at 13, 14 and 15, they were wearing tight outfits.

Okay. Pull it up a little further so we go down to the end.

# 56 Q:

(BY MR. BAKER) Now, he was kind of -- his tone was not angry, he was kind of matter of fact.

That's what you told the jury under penalty of perjury when you had your preliminary hearing testimony, correct?

# 57 THE COURT:

I don't think there was any jury.

# 58 MR. BAKER:

I apologize. Preliminary hearing.

# 59 Q:

(BY MR. BAKER) That's what you told at the preliminary hearing?

# 60 A:

Yes.

# 61 MR. BAKER:

Okay. Now, pull up, please, his depo transcript or trial transcript in the criminal trial, page 20337 or just 2000 is fine.

# 62 MR. PETROCELLI:

Can I have a page and line reference, Mr. Baker, please.

# 63 MR. BAKER:

I don't have a line reference.

# 64 MR. PETROCELLI:

Well, give me a chance -- what's the page.

# 65 MR. BAKER:

2,000 -- 20,000, I'm sorry.

Could you pull it up a little farther.

Got a little technical glitch.

Put that one on.

# 66 (Indicating to Elmo.)

# 67 THE COURT:

What page is that?

MR. P. BAKER: 20337.

# 68 MR. BAKER:

Lines 15 through 28.

# 69 MR. PETROCELLI:

What page is that?

# 70 MR. BAKER:

This is 20,337.

# 71 Q:

(BY MR. BAKER) And now, you testified that he was upset, he made a point to say tight dresses. That, I mentioned before, that was your testimony at the criminal trial, correct?

# 72 A:

Yeah. I don't know what's before that, if it's about the comment about Sydney or not. I think he was more upset about --

# 73 Q:

Well, as a matter of fact, you never mentioned the hardball comment about Sydney in the preliminary hearing or when your testimony was before the grand jury, did you, sir?

# 74 MR. PETROCELLI:

Object, Your Honor. If he has a prior inconsistent statement, he can show it to him, but we don't know what was asked, and I don't think --

# 75 MR. BAKER:

I object --

# 76 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 77 Q:

(BY MR. BAKER) You never mentioned one thing about Mr. Simpson and any purported comments from Nicole Brown Simpson about playing hardball with Sydney in the grand jury hearing or in the preliminary hearing, did you, sir?

# 78 A:

No.

# 79 Q:

And you had -- when you were talking about going in the front door, remember that, on the night of the 12th when O.J. Simpson was coming back with you from getting a hamburger -- do you remember that?

# 80 A:

Going into the -- towards the nook area?

# 81 Q:

Yeah.

# 82 A:

Yeah.

# 83 Q:

And you recall that on the 13th of June about 1:30 you had your statement taken by Officers Carr and Tippin, remember that?

# 84 A:

I remember those guys, yeah.

# 85 Q:

And that was within a couple hours of this incident of coming back from -- I mean it was within 15 hours or so of this incident of coming back from McDonald's, right?

# 86 A:

Yes.

# 87 Q:

And did you say the following?

# 88 MR. BAKER:

And I need a new number on this.

# 89 THE CLERK:

2198.

# 90 MR. LEONARD:

2198.

# 91 MR. BAKER:

Thank you.

# 92 (The instrument herein described as Copy of Brian Kaelin's statement of 6/13/94 was marked for identification as Defendants' Exhibit No. 2198.)

# 93 Q:

(BY MR. BAKER) You did give your statement to Tippin and Carr June 13, 1994 at 1330 hours, that is 1:30 in the afternoon, correct?

# 94 A:

Correct.

# 95 Q:

And you were born on March 9, 1959 correct?

# 96 A:

Correct.

# 97 Q:

All right.

And you were born in Milwaukee, Wisconsin?

# 98 A:

Yes.

# 99 Q:

Okay. And you told the officers at that time, that you drove to McDonald's and O.J. ate in the car, they ordered through the drive-through, ordered from -- it says MA male Hispanic, female Hispanic gave them the food; is that correct? Male Hispanic and female Hispanic?

# 100 A:

Pretty sure.

# 101 MR. PETROCELLI:

I object to the reading of this report. This is a hearsay document. It's not his report. He can show it to him to refresh his recollection, but he can't read a report to him prepared by somebody else.

# 102 MR. BAKER:

This is a report made in the ordinary course of business.

# 103 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 104 Q:

(BY MR. BAKER) O.J. ordered double meat hamburger, fries, no drink, witness ordered chicken sandwich meal, witness paid for food, O.J. ate while driving, they returned to O.J.'s house, witness entered through side of the house into his room, O.J. entered through front.

Did you tell them that about 15 hours after you had gone to McDonald's, Mr. Kaelin?

# 105 A:

Best of my recollection, no. I think they're assuming that.

# 106 Q:

The rest of it you told them that's the only thing in the paragraph I read to you you didn't tell them, right.

# 107 MR. PETROCELLI:

Objection, argumentative.

# 108 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 109 Q:

(BY MR. BAKER) Is there anything else that I read to you, sir, that you say you didn't tell the police?

# 110 A:

I don't know.

# 111 Q:

All right. Now, let's go back -- you, in 1992, I guess were in Aspen, Colorado where you first met Nicole Brown Simpson; is that correct?

# 112 A:

Correct.

# 113 Q:

And you met her with a friend of yours, and what's his name?

# 114 A:

Grant Cramer.

# 115 Q:

And Mr. Cramer and you went to a party and met her there, correct?

# 116 A:

Correct.

# 117 Q:

And subsequently, when you returned to Los Angeles, she invited you and Mr. Grant Cramer to a party at her house on Gretna Green, true?

# 118 A:

True.

# 119 Q:

And when you were at that house on Gretna Green you noticed the back house, did you not?

# 120 A:

Yes, I did.

# 121 Q:

And then you invited yourself to be a tenant in the back house to Ms. Nicole Brown Simpson, did you not?

# 122 A:

No. There was talk about it -- the guest house.

# 123 Q:

And in any event, sir, you -- you moved in almost immediately after that party into the back house at Gretna Green, correct?

# 124 A:

I think two weeks or so.

# 125 Q:

Okay. And you lived at that house from January of 1993 to January of 1994, correct?

# 126 A:

Correct.

# 127 Q:

And during that period of time, you met O.J. Simpson, did you not?

# 128 A:

Yes, I did.

# 129 Q:

And you became kind of a confidante of Nicole Brown Simpson, didn't you?

# 130 MR. PETROCELLI:

Beyond the scope, Your Honor.

# 131 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 132 A:

She told me things, yes.

# 133 Q:

And she told you things, for example, in February or March of 1993, you would have these little conversations with her, would you not?

# 134 A:

Yeah. I don't know the exact dates but we had conversations.

# 135 Q:

And she indicated to you by March of 1993 that she wanted to get back and remarry O.J. Simpson, didn't she?

# 136 MR. PETROCELLI:

I'm going to object as beyond the scope and can I have a continuing objection, Your Honor.

# 137 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 138 A:

It was back and forth.

# 139 Q:

She told you she wanted to remarry O.J. Simpson and the best times of her life was when she was with O.J., isn't that true?

# 140 A:

I think it was that good time and bad times.

# 141 Q:

Did she not tell you that the best times of her life were with O.J. Simpson; yes or no, sir?

# 142 A:

I mean the conversations -- there were times she said that, yes, sir.

# 143 Q:

Okay. Thank you.

Now, in terms of Mr. Simpson, he would come over in his Bronco and pick up the kids, would he not?

# 144 A:

At Gretna Green?

# 145 Q:

Yes.

# 146 A:

Yeah. Yes.

# 147 Q:

And you saw him do that, correct?

# 148 A:

Correct.

# 149 Q:

And you saw him go over to Gretna Green and pick up -- by the way, did it ever -- were you -- do you have any thoughts why they named the dog after you?

# 150 A:

No, I was confused.

# 151 Q:

Okay. Mr. Simpson would come over and --

# 152 A:

What do you mean by that? No --

# 153 Q:

Did you think that was a compliment -- well, never mind.

Did Mr. Simpson come over and pick up the dog and take the dog and the kids at times?

# 154 A:

I don't remember offhand.

# 155 Q:

Well --

# 156 A:

The kids for sure.

# 157 Q:

Pardon?

# 158 A:

The kids for sure.

# 159 Q:

And he would -- while you lived at Rockingham, you saw Chachi over at Rockingham on occasion as well as Kato, the dog, at Rockingham?

# 160 A:

I seen Kato there maybe once or twice the entire time.

# 161 THE COURT:

Mr. Baker, come back at 1:30.

Ladies and gentlemen, don't talk about the case, don't form or express any opinions.

Media in the audience, you're ordered not to approach this witness until this witness has completed his testimony.

This witness is ordered not to speak to the media until this case -- testimony is completed.

Mr. Baker, Mr. Petrocelli.

# 162 THE BAILIFF:

Judge is still on the bench. Quiet, please.

# 163 THE COURT:

Rest of you leave.

# 164 (A bench conference was held which was not reported.)

# 165 (At 11:57 A.M. a recess was taken until 1:30 P.M. of the same day.)

# 166 (REGINA D. CHAVEZ, OFFICIAL REPORTER)

# 167 (Jurors resume their respective seats.)

# 168 THE COURT:

You may resume.

# 169 MR. BAKER:

Thank you.

BRIAN KAELIN, the witness on the stand at the time of the luncheon recess, having been previously duly sworn, was examined and testified further as follows:

CROSS-EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. BAKER:

# 170 Q:

Now, Mr. Kaelin, when we broke for lunch, we were talking about the time period when you still lived at Gretna Green, correct?

# 171 A:

Correct.

# 172 Q:

And when you -- when you were living there, you wanted Nicole and O.J. Simpson to reconcile, to get back together, did you not?

# 173 A:

Yes.

# 174 Q:

And you expressed that opinion to Mr. Simpson, did you not?

# 175 A:

Yes.

# 176 Q:

And that was your feeling the whole time that you lived at Gretna Green; that Mr. Simpson and Nicole Brown Simpson should reconcile and remarry, right?

# 177 A:

I said off and on that -- that if they couldn't get together, they should possibly separate for six months. I mentioned that a few times. If it doesn't work after that, divorce, but if it does work, get back together.

# 178 Q:

Now, you were present at the dispute that took place on October 25, 1993, at least for part of it, correct?

# 179 A:

Correct.

# 180 Q:

And you had Mr. Simpson with you in the back house where you resided, true?

# 181 A:

For part of it, right.

# 182 Q:

And he never, obviously, threatened you or anyone else during that period of time, did he?

# 183 A:

No. There was myself back there and the police, I guess, in the guest house back there.

# 184 Q:

For part of the time before -- before the police got there, you were with him by yourself, correct?

# 185 A:

Never in the guest house, but outside.

# 186 Q:

All right.

And he never threatened anyone, did he, with phys -- anything physical, did he, sir?

# 187 A:

There was no physical harm.

# 188 Q:

Now, towards the end of December of 1993, you were told by Nicole that you would have to move out and find your own place, correct?

# 189 A:

Say it again.

# 190 Q:

In December of 1993, you were told by Nicole, or you were -- you had conversations and you knew you had to move out of the back house of Gretna Green, correct?

# 191 A:

On and off. It was one week yes, one week no.

# 192 Q:

And you had first thought you were going to be able to move into Bundy, true?

# 193 A:

Yes.

# 194 Q:

And you had a conversation with O.J. Simpson about whether or not you should move into Bundy, did you not?

# 195 A:

Yes.

# 196 Q:

And that conversation went to the issue of whether or not he felt it would be good for the kids to have a young man of your age living with his ex-wife and his children, true?

# 197 A:

Inside the same house, correct.

# 198 Q:

And before January of 1994, in the year that you lived at 325 South Gretna Green, you paid some rent to Nicole; at other times, you took kind of credit for babysitting and that sort of thing, didn't you?

# 199 A:

For babysitting, yes.

# 200 Q:

And your basic rent was basically in the neighborhood of four, five hundred a month, correct?

# 201 A:

Correct.

# 202 Q:

And O.J. Simpson indicated to you that since he didn't want you to be living in the house with his ex-wife and his children, that you could live in the guest house at Rockingham, correct?

# 203 A:

Correct.

# 204 Q:

And he wouldn't charge you any rent, true?

# 205 A:

True.

# 206 Q:

And so you were aware, before you ever moved into the house at -- the guest house at 360 North Rockingham, that Nicole Brown Simpson did not want you to live there; isn't that true?

# 207 A:

She told me to -- she had a conversation with O.J. about it.

# 208 Q:

You were aware before you ever moved into 360 North Rockingham, that Nicole Brown Simpson did not want you to move into the guest house at O.J.'s house, true?

# 209 A:

I don't think it's true.

# 210 Q:

All right.

Let me go back and ask you a couple of things.

# 211 A:

Okay.

# 212 Q:

In your -- from December of 1992, when you first met Nicole, she had introduced you, obviously, to O.J. Simpson, correct?

# 213 A:

At one point, yes.

# 214 Q:

She had introduced you to Marcus Allen, correct?

# 215 A:

Correct.

# 216 Q:

You had gone on a date with Nicole, Marcus and a friend of yours, had you not?

# 217 A:

Correct.

# 218 Q:

You had actually -- I think you indicated in examination by Mr. Petrocelli, you never socialized with O.J.

You and your kids -- you and your son actually went out with O.J. and his kids, did you not?

# 219 A:

My daughter.

# 220 Q:

Daughter. I'm sorry.

# 221 A:

With Sydney and Justin, yes.

# 222 Q:

So you did at least socialize at some time with him before June 12, 1994?

# 223 A:

At one time, yes.

# 224 Q:

Relative to the issue, sir, of you moving into 360 North Rockingham, you --

# 225 MR. BAKER:

Would you pull that up on the Elmo.

# 226 Q:

(BY MR. BAKER) You were certainly aware that Nicole had requested you not to move into the guest house; yes or no?

# 227 A:

Yes and no. Yes and no. It was mixed.

I think -- can I explain?

# 228 Q:

Sure. Go ahead.

# 229 A:

There was a point where she said, he's -- he manipulated you. He got you to go to his house.

# 230 Q:

That was before -- that was after you moved in, was it not?

# 231 A:

That was during that January when I moved in.

# 232 Q:

But you were aware that if you moved in, the relationship that Nicole Brown Simpson and you had would certainly decline, correct?

# 233 A:

I didn't know it would decline, but it did decline, yes.

# 234 Q:

As a matter of fact, you knew it was going to decline, and you forsook Nicole Brown Simpson for $500 a month rent?

# 235 A:

No.

# 236 MR. BAKER:

Pull that up.

# 237 MR. PETROCELLI:

I would like page references before he starts.

# 238 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 239 MR. BAKER:

496, lines 7 through 9.

No. Wait till he's had a chance to look at it.

# 240 MR. PETROCELLI:

Okay. Thanks.

# 241 Q:

(BY MR. BAKER) And you testified:

Question: "And when you went to Mr. Simpson's house, you didn't have to pay rent at all, true?

"A. Yes."

"So it was a better deal and you forsook Ms. Simpson for $500 a month, right?"

And your answer was yes; isn't that true sir?

# 242 A:

That's what I say there, yes.

# 243 Q:

That is true; you forsook Nicole Brown Simpson for $500 a month, after she had met you in Aspen and given you a place to live for basically one year, true?

# 244 A:

I guess I didn't interpret the "forsook" for that -- the negative connotation; but yes, I lived at O.J.'s for free.

# 245 Q:

And Nicole wouldn't come over if you were at O.J.'s correct?

# 246 A:

No, she came by.

# 247 Q:

And asked you to leave, for example, if in fact the kids were going to swim; isn't that true?

# 248 A:

Sometimes, yes.

# 249 Q:

Sometimes? Every time; isn't that correct?

# 250 A:

Not if my daughter was there.

# 251 Q:

Now, you and Nicole never were friends after you moved into O.J.'s house on January -- first week of January of 1994, correct?

# 252 A:

I think --

# 253 Q:

Correct?

# 254 A:

-- I was still a friend.

# 255 Q:

And she wouldn't talk to you, true?

# 256 A:

Off and on, yes.

# 257 Q:

Now, after you got to Mr. Simpson's house and lived in his guest house (indicating to Exhibit 116 with overlay), you weren't great pals with O.J. Simpson, were you?

# 258 A:

Correct.

# 259 Q:

But you shared some conversation -- some conversations and some social discourse with him, did you not?

# 260 A:

Yes.

# 261 Q:

Now, in terms of where your room was over in the guest wing of the home --

# 262 A:

Can I go down there? (Pointing to Exhibit 116 with overlay.)

# 263 Q:

Now, in the area where your place is -- your room was, that's about what, three feet below the pool decking area right adjacent to it, and these are steps that lead up to it, correct?

# 264 A:

Right. Cement here and steps.

# 265 Q:

All right.

And then there is a -- an office that is right adjacent to the room that you used, correct?

# 266 A:

Correct.

# 267 Q:

And then this is a little hallway with steps, and there's a pool table in there, correct?

# 268 A:

Right, into the house.

# 269 Q:

Okay.

Now, that -- that's a pretty substantial home in terms of construction, is it not, sir?

# 270 A:

Yes.

# 271 Q:

That house is --

Well, let me ask you this question.

Mr. Petrocelli asked you a few questions concerning noise.

Now, you couldn't hear what went on in O.J. Simpson's house when you were in your room, normally, could you?

# 272 A:

No. I -- It was -- I could hear a phone ring if it kept ringing and ringing, but I couldn't hear any verbal --

# 273 Q:

The phone rang in the bar area?

# 274 A:

Correct.

# 275 Q:

In the bar area.

And Mr. Simpson's home is in an area right in here where I've drawn this little -- it should be a semicircle, but it's not.

MR. P. BAKER: The overlay will be 2199.

# 276 (The instrument herein referred to as Overlay to Plaintiffs' Exhibit 116, diagram entitled 360 N. Rockingham Avenue, was marked for identification as Defendants' Exhibit No. 2199.)

# 277 Q:

(BY MR. BAKER) Were you in his house enough to remember where the bar area was?

# 278 A:

Um-hum. It was --

# 279 Q:

And Mr. Simpson didn't ask your permission to go out and hit golf balls on his front lawn, did he?

# 280 A:

No.

# 281 Q:

And you normally, when you were there, stayed back in your room, did you not, sir?

# 282 A:

True.

# 283 Q:

And he didn't check with you if he was going to have people in or if he wasn't going to have people in, correct?

# 284 A:

Correct.

# 285 Q:

In other words, you had a separate life from Mr. Simpson when he was actually in residence at 360 North Rockingham; you would agree with that?

# 286 A:

Yes.

# 287 Q:

And Mr. Simpson, when you moved in, was basically not in that house, almost virtually never, until in May of 1996; isn't that true?

# 288 A:

Pretty much so, yeah.

# 289 Q:

So, I mean, when Mr. Petrocelli asked you the first time he ever -- second time he ever came to your house -- he was in New York the first couple of months, and then he was in Puerto Rico, shooting a film, all the month of April; isn't that true?

# 290 MR. PETROCELLI:

Object, Your Honor, because it misstates the record. No evidence of that.

# 291 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 292 Q:

(BY MR. BAKER) Isn't it true he was in Puerto Rico virtually the whole month of April, shooting a film.

# 293 A:

He was filming. I don't know -- I don't remember the exact dates.

# 294 Q:

You were aware he wasn't around that house when you first moved in; he was back in New York, working for NBC for the pro football season, correct?

# 295 A:

Correct.

# 296 Q:

So you didn't have many chances for any social intercourse with O.J. Simpson until May of 1996; isn't that true?

# 297 MR. BLASIER:

'94.

# 298 MR. BAKER:

I'm sorry. '94.

# 299 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

For some of it, yes.

# 300 Q:

(BY MR. BAKER) Now, in terms of your going in and out of the Rockingham address, you used to park over on Ashford Street, then you would come in -- the one gate was rigged so you could push it open, correct?

# 301 A:

Right. You got to move it yourself.

# 302 Q:

And that was the left gate as you faced the gate from Ashford?

# 303 A:

Right, the Ashford side.

# 304 Q:

Left gate as you face the gate from Ashford?

# 305 A:

Right.

# 306 Q:

Correct. Right? Left?

# 307 A:

You know, the gate on Ashford.

# 308 Q:

At any rate.

# 309 (Laughter.)

# 310 Q:

(BY MR. BAKER) You would normally park your car in the area where my pen is, walk in, push the gate open, walk down the path, walk around, and not disturb anybody in the house, true?

# 311 A:

True.

# 312 Q:

Okay.

Now, in terms of your relationship with Mr. Simpson, at times you'd come in and he's in the area where the bar is; that's a den area, is it not, family-room area?

# 313 A:

Where the bar area is?

# 314 Q:

Yeah.

# 315 A:

Well, where the TV is.

# 316 Q:

Okay.

Now, on this wall where I'm putting an X, there is a television built into the wall, is there not?

# 317 A:

Yes.

Then there's sofas over in here.

# 318 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

I need a different marker.

# 319 MR. PETROCELLI:

I assume you're referring to the first floor, Mr. Baker.

# 320 MR. BAKER:

I'm sorry.

# 321 MR. PETROCELLI:

First floor, right.

# 322 MR. BAKER:

I am. I am. Thank you.

# 323 (Mr. Baker marks on overlay, Defendants' Exhibit 2199.)

# 324 Q:

Would it be accurate to say there are sofas that go like this, or cocktail table or some table in the middle?

# 325 A:

Right.

# 326 Q:

Then there are chairs that go around the bar area, true?

# 327 A:

True.

# 328 Q:

And then as you go, there's a dining room behind here, and then a kitchen goes all the way here, and -- well, I can't draw it very well.

# 329 A:

Somewhat, right.

# 330 Q:

Okay.

I'm not very good at this.

In any event, sir, you would, at times, come in and he'd be sitting there on the sofa, watching television, correct?

# 331 A:

Yes.

# 332 Q:

And you had some interchange with him during the times that he was doing that, true?

# 333 A:

If he called me in, yes.

# 334 Q:

And now, you had met Marcus Allen, in fact, gone out on a social engagement with him?

# 335 A:

Once, right.

# 336 Q:

And O.J. Simpson was not jealous of Marcus Allen, was he.

# 337 MR. PETROCELLI:

Objection. Lack of foundation; no personal knowledge.

# 338 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 339 Q:

(BY MR. BAKER) You had a conversation with O.J. Simpson about Marcus Allen, and he indicated to you he didn't mind Nicole doing whatever Nicole did with Marcus Allen; isn't that true?

# 340 MR. PETROCELLI:

Objection. Hearsay.

# 341 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 342 MR. BAKER:

Relative to my client saying that to him?

# 343 THE COURT:

Yeah, self-serving hearsay.

# 344 MR. BAKER:

It's a leading question, Your Honor but it's an admission.

# 345 THE COURT:

It's an admission if it's offered by an adverse party.

It's a self-serving admission when offered by your own side.

# 346 Q:

(BY MR. BAKER) In any event, you never heard Mr. Simpson indicate that he was jealous of anything Nicole did; isn't that true.

# 347 MR. PETROCELLI:

Same objection, Your Honor.

# 348 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 349 Q:

(BY MR. BAKER) Now, in May of 1994, you became aware -- well, strike that.

Did you ever become aware that Mr. Simpson and Nicole Brown Simpson had ceased their reconciliation period?

# 350 A:

At some point, yes.

# 351 Q:

That was in May of 1994, was it not?

# 352 A:

I think -- I think so.

# 353 Q:

You learned that from conversations you had with O.J. Simpson, true?

# 354 A:

I think it was O.J. Simpson and Cora Fischman.

# 355 Q:

And Mr. Simpson was not mad, upset, or distraught about that when he told you, was he?

# 356 MR. PETROCELLI:

Objection. Hearsay.

# 357 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 358 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

I -- I don't know. I can't answer that.

# 359 Q:

(BY MR. BAKER) Well, have you ever testified before that Mr. Simpson was not jealous about Nicole Brown Simpson?

# 360 A:

If you'd show me --

# 361 Q:

Do you have a recollection of ever testifying before that he was not jealous, sir?

# 362 A:

I think I said possibly.

It was off and on. They were together and not together.

# 363 Q:

Now, in terms of May of 1994, you were aware that O.J. Simpson, after they had broken up, went over and took care of Nicole, correct, when she was ill?

# 364 A:

Correct.

# 365 Q:

And he didn't -- through any conversations you had with him, he didn't voice any animosity towards Nicole Brown Simpson, did he, sir?

# 366 MR. PETROCELLI:

Objection. Self-serving hearsay.

# 367 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 368 MR. BAKER:

Can you pull up 515, lines 2 --

# 369 MR. PETROCELLI:

Excuse me, Mr. Baker?

# 370 MR. BAKER:

515 of his depo.

# 371 MR. PETROCELLI:

Deposition, okay.

What line, Mr. Baker?

# 372 MR. BAKER:

It's going to start on 512.

# 373 (Deposition transcript displayed on TV screen.)

# 374 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

This is from?

# 375 MR. BAKER:

Your deposition.

# 376 MR. PETROCELLI:

I'm going to object on hearsay grounds, Your Honor, for this testimony.

# 377 MR. BAKER:

512, lines 24 through 13 of 513, Phil.

# 378 MR. PETROCELLI:

It's also irrelevant.

# 379 THE COURT:

What line?

# 380 MR. BAKER:

512 through line 16 -- through 513, line 13.

# 381 THE COURT:

16 starts in the middle of a sentence. So if he's --

# 382 MR. PETROCELLI:

That's what I have, too.

What's the question, the first question, Mr. Baker?

# 383 Q:

(BY MR. BAKER) Did you testify in the grand jury?

# 384 MR. PETROCELLI:

That's a different reference. That's 512, line 16, Your Honor.

# 385 THE COURT:

Line 16 starts with that.

# 386 MR. BAKER:

Let me read from the deposition.

# 387 MR. PETROCELLI:

Object to this; he can't just read from the depositions. It's got to be a foundation for it, Your Honor. There has to be a prior inconsistent statement; otherwise, it's hearsay.

# 388 THE COURT:

What's the question preceding this?

Okay. Objection sustained.

There's no question that was asked that is being refreshed or impeached.

# 389 Q:

(BY MR. BAKER) Mr. Kaelin?

# 390 A:

Yes?

# 391 Q:

Your state of mind, when you testified before the grand jury in June of 1994, was that O.J. Simpson was not jealous of Nicole Brown Simpson dating --

# 392 MR. PETROCELLI:

Object.

# 393 MR. BAKER:

-- correct?

# 394 MR. PETROCELLI:

Object. His state of mind is irrelevant. There's no basis to read in prior testimony. It's hearsay. It's irrelevant.

# 395 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 396 MR. BAKER:

On what ground, Your Honor?

# 397 THE COURT:

What does this witness's state of mind have to do with anything? Doesn't have anything . . .

# 398 MR. BAKER:

Has to do with this purported motive --

# 399 THE COURT:

Mr. Kaelin has no motive --

# 400 MR. BAKER:

-- purported motive of my client, Your Honor. And this man was around him and testified to it.

# 401 MR. PETROCELLI:

I don't think it has anything to do with Mr. Simpson's conduct, his state of mind, Your Honor.

Mr. Baker objected in my examination --

# 402 MR. BAKER:

I'd like to be heard.

# 403 THE COURT:

I'm going to overrule it. You offered evidence as to his state of mind, and I'll permit examination at this point.

# 404 Q:

(BY MR. BAKER) Now, you had communication with Nicole Brown Simpson throughout the year of 1993, correct?

# 405 A:

Correct.

# 406 Q:

And you had some communication with O.J. Simpson in 1994, correct?

# 407 A:

Correct.

# 408 Q:

And your state of mind -- and you testified to the grand jury in June of 1994, within two weeks of these murders, that O.J. Simpson was not jealous of Nicole Brown Simpson dating Marcus Allen or anybody else; isn't that true?

# 409 MR. PETROCELLI:

I'm going to object on relevance grounds, Your Honor.

# 410 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 411 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

I didn't know anything that was going on between the two.

# 412 Q:

(BY MR. BAKER) I didn't ask you what you knew, sir; I asked you what you testified to.

# 413 A:

I -- I -- if I could see it -- I don't remember.

# 414 Q:

All right.

# 415 MR. BAKER:

May I now read the --

# 416 THE COURT:

You may.

# 417 Q:

(BY MR. BAKER) (Reading:)

"Q. Did you testify at the grand jury proceeding that O.J. Simpson didn't care whether or not Nicole Brown Simpson was dating or not?

"A. Yes.

"Q. And did you think that was a sign of jealousy or lack of jealousy?

"A. I don't know. I didn't know in someone's mind.

"Q. Did you testify at the preliminary hearing that O.J. Simpson didn't care whether Nicole Brown Simpson dated anybody, including Marcus Allen?

"A. Yes. That was going on. I mean, they were dating at both ends, and it seemed like it was okay for them to date.

"Q. And it certainly didn't bother O.J., did it? "

# 418 MR. PETROCELLI:

Object.

# 419 MR. BAKER:

"Objection."

"Q. As far as you are aware, Mr. Kaelin?

"A. Yes.

# 420 MR. PETROCELLI:

Same objection.

BY MR. BAKER: (Reading:)

"Q. It did or did not bother O.J. Simpson?

"A. It didn't."

Now, that's what you testified to in your deposition, is it not, sir?

# 421 A:

Yes.

# 422 Q:

And I take it you were under penalty of perjury in that testimony as to your truthful opinion at that time, correct?

# 423 A:

My opinion, yes.

# 424 Q:

And I take it that was your opinion when you testified at the grand jury, in the preliminary hearing, true?

# 425 A:

True.

# 426 Q:

All right.

Now, in terms of your living at the house, and in terms of your access to that house, now, you didn't have a key to that house, did you?

# 427 A:

No.

# 428 Q:

You didn't have the alarm code, did you?

# 429 A:

No.

# 430 Q:

You didn't have access to the interior of that house unless you were invited in, correct?

# 431 A:

Correct.

# 432 Q:

Now, you were not invited into that house in 1994 except for how many times?

# 433 A:

In 1994?

# 434 Q:

Yeah.

# 435 A:

When I was living there?

# 436 Q:

Yes, sir.

# 437 A:

I don't know.

# 438 Q:

Less than five?

# 439 A:

Five to seven. I can't give you an exact number.

# 440 Q:

And during the time that you were living there, did Mr. Simpson ever invite you to go upstairs?

# 441 A:

I think once.

# 442 Q:

Look around to see what was up there?

# 443 A:

I think once.

# 444 Q:

And other than that, you weren't in that house; isn't that true, sir?

# 445 A:

Other than those -- those times?

# 446 Q:

Yes.

# 447 A:

Correct.

# 448 Q:

Now, in terms of Mr. Simpson's home, you had become aware from just having the kids over and playing hide and seek with your daughter and Mr. Simpson's kids, that there was really no way out around the east side of the guest quarters, correct?

# 449 A:

Correct. I mean, you could get by.

# 450 Q:

You'd have to jump?

# 451 A:

Yeah, or -- jump or crawl; I don't know which one.

# 452 Q:

And this air conditioner that is -- that's -- that stuck out in your room, that was through the wall and stuck out about chest height, did it not?

# 453 A:

I think that's about right.

# 454 Q:

And if it -- that was the lower portion. And the upper portion would be about where my nose is, correct?

# 455 A:

Approximately, yeah.

# 456 Q:

And the walls to that house were -- of the guest quarters were, in your opinion, very sturdily built, true?

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (5)

Robert Baker

So it was a better deal and you forsook Ms. Simpson for $500 a month, right?

Baker gets Kaelin to confirm on the record that he chose OJ's free rent over loyalty to Nicole, undermining Kaelin's credibility as a sympathetic witness and suggesting pro-plaintiff bias

Brian Kaelin

I guess I didn't interpret the 'forsook' for that -- the negative connotation; but yes, I lived at O.J.'s for free.

Kaelin's hedged admission after being cornered on his prior deposition testimony, illustrating his evasive witness style

Brian Kaelin

joking and laughing

Kaelin's grand jury testimony (June 1994, within two weeks of the murders) describing OJ's tone during the tight-dress comment — directly contradicting his more damaging criminal trial characterization of OJ as 'upset'

Robert Baker

It did or did not bother O.J. Simpson? [Kaelin depo:] It didn't.

Baker reads Kaelin's own deposition into the record showing Kaelin previously testified OJ was not jealous of Nicole dating Marcus Allen — undercutting the plaintiffs' jealousy-as-motive theory

Robert Baker

My technical operator hasn't followed my directions for the last 28 years.

Comic relief during the fumbled transcript-display, lightening a tense courtroom moment

Evidence (7)

Defendants' 2198

Copy of Brian Kaelin's police statement given June 13, 1994 at 1:30 PM to Officers Carr and Tippin

introduced and read from to establish how Kaelin described the McDonald's trip and entry into the house

Plaintiffs' 116

Diagram of 360 N. Rockingham Avenue floor plan

used with overlay to walk through layout of guest quarters, bar/TV area, and pool area

Defendants' 2199

Overlay to Plaintiffs' Exhibit 116 with Baker's hand-drawn markings

introduced; Baker drew on it to show entry paths, room locations, and furniture arrangement

Informal

Grand jury transcript (June 1994) — Kaelin's testimony that OJ was 'joking and laughing' about the tight dress

displayed on screen, used to impeach criminal trial testimony

Informal

Preliminary hearing transcript, page 88 — Kaelin's testimony that OJ's tone 'was not angry, he was kind of matter of fact'

displayed on Elmo to impeach

Informal

Criminal trial transcript, page 20337 — Kaelin's testimony that OJ 'was upset' about tight dresses

displayed to show escalation from prior sworn statements

+ 1 more

Notable Exchanges (4)

Robert Baker•Brian Kaelin

Baker methodically layers Kaelin's grand jury, preliminary hearing, and criminal trial testimony about OJ's tone during the tight-dress comment, showing escalating characterization from 'joking and laughing' to 'matter of fact' to 'upset' — with no mention of the 'hardball about Sydney' comment until the criminal trial

strategic

Robert Baker•Daniel Petrocelli•Hiroshi Fujisaki

Extended legal battle over whether Baker could read Kaelin's prior deposition testimony about OJ's lack of jealousy. Petrocelli objected as hearsay and self-serving; Fujisaki initially sustained but then reversed, ruling that since Petrocelli had offered Kaelin's state of mind on direct, Baker could examine it

procedural

Robert Baker•Brian Kaelin

Baker establishes Kaelin's move from Gretna Green to Rockingham: Nicole may not have wanted him there, Kaelin's friendship with Nicole deteriorated, and Nicole would ask him to leave when her kids swam. Baker gets Kaelin to confirm he 'forsook' Nicole for free rent

revealing

Robert Baker•Brian Kaelin

Baker establishes Kaelin had very limited interior access to OJ's house — no key, no alarm code, invited in only 5-7 times in 1994, almost never upstairs — suggesting Kaelin's knowledge of OJ's movements and habits was far more limited than implied on direct

strategic

Light Moments (4)

Robert Baker

Baker asks if Kaelin knows why Nicole named her dog 'Kato,' then immediately abandons the line when Kaelin seems confused: 'Did you think that was a compliment -- well, never mind.'

Robert Baker

Baker jokes about his AV operator: 'My technical operator hasn't followed my directions for the last 28 years.' Transcript notes laughter.

Robert Baker

Baker gets tangled trying to establish which gate Kaelin used — 'Left gate as you face the gate from Ashford?' / 'Right.' / 'Correct. Right? Left?' — drawing laughter from the courtroom.

Robert Baker

Baker quips about Kaelin's pre-testimony breakfast with Medvene: 'I hope they paid.' Kaelin: 'I think so.'

Credibility Attacks (3)

⚔ Brian Kaelin

prior inconsistent statements

Baker shows three escalating versions of Kaelin's tight-dress testimony: grand jury (joking/laughing), preliminary hearing (matter of fact, not angry), criminal trial (upset) — and that the 'hardball about Sydney' context was never mentioned until the criminal trial

⚔ Brian Kaelin

bias / self-interest

Baker establishes Kaelin chose free rent at OJ's over his friendship with Nicole, Nicole didn't want him there, and their relationship deteriorated — suggesting Kaelin's loyalty was to OJ and undermining any claim of neutral observation

⚔ Brian Kaelin

limited knowledge

Baker establishes Kaelin had no key, no alarm code, was rarely inside OJ's house, and led a separate life from Simpson — suggesting Kaelin's observations about OJ's moods and behavior were limited

Witness Demeanor

(Laughter) [re: Baker's comment about his technical operator]

(Laughter) [re: left/right gate confusion]

Witness asks to step down to point at exhibit: 'Can I go down there?'

Witness asks clarifying questions repeatedly, often hedging: 'If I could see it,' 'I don't remember offhand,' 'Yes and no'

Objections

22 objections (9 sustained, 7 overruled)

Proceeding 8346 • 456 utterances • Defense witness

Civil Trial

Department 103