You know, I don't know what it was in the back, if it was cement or -- I don't know what it's called.

(BY MR. BAKER) Did you ever take your fist and hit that wall behind that bed at all, sir?

No.

Did you ever -- let me ask you: In terms of your ingress and egress -- and let's go to June 11, 1994, now, by June 11, 1994, you say you were watching television with O.J. Simpson, correct?

Correct.

And you mentioned something about "The World Of Garp?"

Correct.

Now, you first mentioned that in an interview that you did with Mark Elliott on December 27, 1994, some six or so months after the killings, true?

I guess.

You had never mentioned that in any conversations you had with Mr. Shapiro, with any of the D.A.'s at the grand jury or at the preliminary hearing; isn't that true?

I guess so. I was never asked anything.

Well, when you were having this interview with Mark Elliott, this is when you were contemplating putting out a book and making a few bucks relative to your involvement in the O.J. Simpson matter; isn't that true?

And in fact, you'd even signed a contract before you came up with this "World of Garp" story; that had never surfaced in any of the prior interviews; isn't that correct, sir?

No, I didn't sign any contract.

You had negotiated a contract but didn't sign it?

With Mark Elliott.

And this was really you, in an attempt testimony of that particular testimony about the World of Garp, attempting to cash in on your 15 minutes of fame, so to speak, wasn't it, sir?

No.

Let me ask you: You had heard about this incident with this gentleman named Keith before you ever moved into O.J. Simpson's house, had you not?

I don't believe so. I -- it was part of the 911 call, and I didn't make sense of it at that time.

You had never heard about that from either the October 25 incident or anything else; that went on at 325 South Gretna Green, correct?

What I can remember, no.

And you heard O.J. Simpson -- and you were standing next to him with the police there, when they were talking about that incident on October 25, 1993; isn't that true, sir?

Question is vague as to what incident.

(BY MR. BAKER) The incident of oral sex in the living room of 325 South Gretna Green, with Ms. Simpson and this gentleman named Keith, correct?

The police did come by. And when they came to my room, I sort of excused myself, and I don't remember that happening.

I mean, it was dialogue with the police, but I --

You tuned out of it?

It was -- I don't remember completely the incident. But I know they came to my room and they asked who I was. And he said, he's okay, and let them talk. And I went out towards the pool area.

Now, on June 11, you related some conversations you had with Mr. Simpson, correct?

Correct.

And you talked about this incident in the movie, "The World According To Garp," correct?

Yes.

And you have a clear recollection of that, right?

Of him telling me that story, yes.

And that was kind of sensational, if you were going to do a book, to put that in a book, something about oral sex. You thought that when you gave the interview to Mark Elliott, didn't you?

No, sir.

Now, by the time you gave the interview to Mark Elliott, how many TV shows had you been on?

How many television shows?

I don't know.

You mean news shows?

Anything where you agreed to go on the show.

What was the date you're talking about?

It was December 27, 1994.

I don't think many. I don't know. If you can tell me . . .

You have no recollection, right?

If you can show me, I would definitely have a recollection.

You have no recollection in your own mind as to how many television shows you had appeared on between the time of the murders and the time you gave this interview to Mark Elliott, in preparation of selling a book?

No.

How many television shows have you been on to date, from the time of the murders to the present time?

I don't know the exact number.

Now, in terms of the conversation you say you had with Mr. Simpson on the 11th --

Um-hum.

-- what you can remember now is that one about "The World According To Garp" and the related incident, and a conversation about Paula Barbieri; and that's all, correct?

At that time on that Saturday?

Yeah.

I think so.

Isn't it true -- isn't it true, Mr. Kaelin, that when Mr. Simpson was talking about a white picket fence, he was talking about what Ms. Barbieri wanted, as contrasted to him?

No; that's what he wanted.

Isn't it true she wanted a white picket fence and kids, and Mr. Simpson had said he had two families and he didn't desire anymore kids, and that's why he thought maybe Paula wasn't the one for him?

Isn't that the conversation you had?

He said he wanted the white picket fence, and he also mentioned a conversation that, yes, he didn't want anymore kids.

Now, do you have any other memories of any conversation with him on June 11, 1994?

There was -- he was going to some Israeli dinner. I remember that being part of the conversation.

What did he tell you about that?

It was a black-tie event.

What did he tell you about that?

That he didn't really want to go to it.

That's all he said about it?

It was a charity event.

You watched a playoff game on -- the playoff of the NBA basketball, did you not?

Yes, in my room.

You watched part of it with him, didn't you?

I don't remember if I did.

You had a conversation about basketball, didn't you?

Yes. I think I told him what the score of the game -- what it was.

And then you didn't see him after you left his place until 2 o'clock the next morning -- the next afternoon, correct?

Approximately.

And that wasn't unusual, was it?

I mean, he didn't communicate with him -- you didn't communicate with him?

Correct.

And so the next morning at 2:00 -- or afternoon, rather, at approximately 2 o'clock in the afternoon, you were invited into his kitchen nook, correct?

Correct.

Now, did you seek an invitation into his kitchen nook?

No.

Mr. Simpson was sitting in his kitchen nook when you were invited in?

Yes.

Now, his kitchen nook is in the area -- well, let's just put a "K" and an "N" where I put the "K" and the "N" -- correct?

Yes.

And there's a television set on the south wall, is there not?

Yes.

And Mr. Simpson was watching television when he invited you in?

I think it was on. I'm not 100 percent positive. I think the TV was on.

And you came in your usual method, through the driveway and out the pathway, correct?

Correct.

And there's no way Mr. Simpson could have seen you; isn't that true?

No. I think he did see me, because when you come in, if I saw the TV on in that area, I could have walked by and seen who it was. He would have said "Kato," and invited me in.

And so you had no business going up to the kitchen nook, otherwise, to try to get a kitchen -- to get into Mr. Simpson's house, to try to have a chat with him; isn't that true?

To say hi.

Now, after you got in the kitchen nook at approximately 2 o'clock in the afternoon, was there another white picket fence conversation?

I believe so, yes.

Right.

The other white picket fence was to Traci Adell.

Now, you had -- by the time that you had your deposition taken in 1996, you had testified at the preliminary hearing, you'd given an interview to the D.A., you testified at the grand jury, you'd been on Larry King Live, you'd been on innumerable television shows, correct?

Correct.

I don't know if I said it before that or not.

And isn't it true that you never mentioned one thing about this alleged hardball with Sydney until you spent eight and a half hours with Mr. Petrocelli?

I don't believe so. I think I said it before that.

And isn't it also true that you never mentioned one thing about the thumping at 10:50?

You spent at least eight and a half hours with Mr. Petrocelli?

No. I said that in my first interview.

You said that in your first interview, when you -- when you thought you got back from McDonald's at 10 o'clock, not 9:37; isn't that true?

I think in all my interviews, I've always had an approximate of time.

Isn't it true when you said -- the only time you ever said 10:50, other than in this courtroom, is when you were being interviewed by Mr. Shapiro, and you said 10:50, and you believed that you got back from McDonald's at 10 o'clock? True?

I don't think so. I think, Mr. Baker, what it was, I always had -- I had no time on me; I didn't have a watch; I wasn't keeping time. So it was always approximate when I said that.

We'll get back to that.

Okay.

In terms of your conversation on the afternoon of the 12th with Mr. Simpson, how long did you talk to him?

My first conversation?

Maybe a half-hour. I can't give you an approximate amount of time again.

And the only thing you remember is this purported IRS and Sydney hardball, or Sydney hardball was afterwards?

I remember the calendar section I was reading; that he was making phone calls.

The only thing that you remember from the afternoon conversation with O.J. Simpson was this issue about the IRS that you have now come to testify to, correct?

Objection to -- now it's argumentative, Your Honor.

Sustained.

(BY MR. BAKER) The only thing you can recall is mentioning something about the IRS that Mr. Simpson had allegedly mentioned to you on June 12, 1994, that you have not mentioned before your deposition, correct?

I said it during that -- he said it during that afternoon, correct.

And by the way, I take it, sir, that from all of the time that you've testified, and from all of the media reports relative to this, the facts surrounding the murders and your involvement therein, that you have a clear recollection of everything you did on June 12 as it relates to these cases, true?

No, not everything.

And, in fact, your memory is somewhat confused as to what you know and what you lived and what you saw on television; isn't that true?

In terms of your then next encounter with Mr. Simpson, it was after Mr. Simpson had returned from the recital, correct?

Correct.

And by the way, Mr. Simpson's demeanor that whole day is related to -- as near as you could tell, was nothing unusual at all; isn't that true?

I --

You mean a day, time?

(BY MR. BAKER) At any time on June 12, 1994, Mr. Simpson's demeanor was not unusual, other than the fact that he was tired; isn't that true?

He was tired, yes.

He was not angry; he was not frustrated; he was not, in any way that you could see, anything other than a little tired and normal, correct?

Well, you mean during conversations --

Correct.

Certain parts he'd be upset, but mostly he was tired because he was talking about his red eye.

And he told you on June 12, 1994, when you were in his house, that he was going to catch a red eye and go to Chicago, didn't he?

He was going to Chicago on a red eye, yes.

He told you that before he ever went to the recital, didn't he?

I don't know what part of the day it was, but he did tell me that, yes.

In fact, he told you that he had flown back from New York specifically to go to Sydney's recital on Sunday evening and then had to catch a red eye because he had to be in Chicago the next morning; isn't that true, sir?

I don't remember the first part of him telling me that, of coming back from New York.

Now, he indicated to you that he was going to catch a red eye and it was going to be a limousine that was going to pick him up. And you knew that before 6 o'clock on June 12, 1994, true, sir?

I knew of the red eye.

You knew he had a limo picking him up to take him to the airport when he flew?

I knew there was a limo; I didn't know anything about the time coming.

Earlier in your testimony today, you didn't mean to imply to this jury that you didn't have any idea that a limo was going to be at the gate at some time on the evening of June 12, 1994, did you?

Well, what it was, when I say a limo before --

Did you mean to imply when this jury --

Excuse me.

Excuse me.

He was in the middle of an answer.

I wish he'd answer the question.

You may answer.

The answer would be normally, the limo driver would be inside the gate. That was the first time I'd seen the limo driver outside the gate.

Had you seen the limos there at all between the months of May and June, when Mr. Simpson was actually in residence at 360 North Rockingham?

Yes, I think I've seen it maybe twice.

And you didn't mean to imply to these ladies and gentlemen of the jury, when you testified earlier today, that you didn't have any idea a limo was going to come and pick up Mr. Simpson on June -- the evening of June 12, 1994?

I assumed there would be a limo picking him up.

Now, on the 12, after Mr. Simpson returned from the recital, it's your testimony that you then were with him again for a period of time before you went out and got in the jacuzzi, true?

That was the time of the recital. After the recital was -- I was in the nook area before I entered the jacuzzi, correct.

And then you chatted with him about the recital and he was very happy about Sydney's performance, correct?

Right.

And he indicated to you that he was going to pack, correct?

I believe so.

And you went out and got into the jacuzzi, correct?

Correct.

And you don't know where Mr. Simpson was?

When I was in the jacuzzi?

Correct.

No.

In fact, you didn't know where Mr. Simpson was about 99 percent of the time you were on the grounds of 360 North Rockingham; that would be true, correct?

Correct.

And you didn't believe that you were Mr. Simpson's watch-keeper in any way, shape, or form, did you?

No.

And you didn't believe that he was your watch-keeper in any way, shape, or form, did you?

No.

Now, when you went out to the jacuzzi, after you got out of the jacuzzi, about what time was that, sir?

I knew it was becoming dark. I was guessing it was about 8 o'clock at that time of the year, 8:00 to 8:30.

And we're in basically mid-June, right?

Right.

All right.

And so after you got out of the jacuzzi, you went into your room, and the next time you saw O.J. Simpson was when he was standing on the deck area, looking down into your room, and yelled at you?

Correct.

And at that time, he was asking you for some money because all he had was $100 bills and needed change for the sky cap, true?

No. That's when he told me I left the jacuzzi jets on.

He told you that he had just shut them off, did he not?

He did.

Then he asked you for some money for a sky cap?

On a second trip, yes.

And now, after he asked you for that, he told you he was going to go get something to eat, correct?

Yes.

And you testified this morning that he paused when you asked whether or not you could go with him to get something to eat?

Yeah. It was -- when I asked, it wasn't -- it was a hesitation, and it made me feel as if I'm inviting myself, I shouldn't be coming along.

Now, you never mentioned anything -- well, strike that.

When you were interviewed by the LA Police Department, that was because -- and you were aware of that they felt Mr. Simpson was a suspect in the murders of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman, correct?

Say the question again.

When you were interviewed on June 13, 1994, at 1:30 in the afternoon by officers Tippin and Carr, you knew at that point in time that they felt O.J. Simpson was a suspect in the murders of Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman, true?

They didn't say anything to me about that, but I assumed that's what they were doing at the house.

And you certainly knew by the time that you testified before the grand jury, that O.J. Simpson had been arrested and was the suspect for the double murders, correct?

Correct.

And you certainly knew that when you testified before the preliminary hearing, correct?

Correct.

Now, in terms of either of -- strike that.

In any three of those interviews, you never mentioned one time about any alleged pausing of Mr. Simpson in your inability or ability to think that maybe you were intruding on him, did you?

Objection. There's no foundation that he was asked any of these kind of questions, Your Honor. I object. If he's got a specific question and answer, he should present it.

Overruled.

(BY MR. BAKER) Isn't that true, sir?

You never mentioned purported pausing when you knew Mr. Simpson was a suspect in any of those occasions, did you, sir?

I don't know if I did or not.

It's what happened, though.

So you have -- was your recollection refreshed after you had the interview with Mark Elliott to try to sell your book?

No foundation, recollection needed refreshing Your Honor. I object.

Sustained.

(BY MR. BAKER) Well, would there be any reason that you wouldn't want to give the Los Angeles District Attorney's office and the ladies and gentlemen of the grand jury and the judge in the preliminary hearing, the full evidence relative to, for example, a pause or something to that effect?

Object. There's no foundation.

Sustained.

(BY MR. BAKER) Now, in terms, sir -- in terms, sir, of your discussions that night, after you say there was this pause, and then Mr. Simpson actually told you, sir, come along, didn't he?

He -- he did, after that pause, invite me along.

And you went out through the house, got in his car, and drove down to McDonald's, right?

Correct.

And he got his hamburger and you got your grilled chicken or whatever it was, and you headed back up towards Rockingham, correct?

Correct.

And he ate his hamburger in the car and had it consumed by the time you got into the -- into the property at 360 North Rockingham, right?

It was gone by then, yes.

And he didn't have any food left, did he?

I thought he had French fries.

He had no food, and you knew that he'd already eaten his food before you ever said you were going to go back into the nook and eat with him; isn't that true, sir?

Objection. It's compound.

Overruled.

I knew he had finished the burger, but I don't remember everything else he ordered.

(BY MR. BAKER) Now, in terms of coming in -- coming back from McDonald's, do you remember if you came up San Vicente and then or -- strike that -- came up 26th Street?

I'm pretty positive we came up 26th to Rockingham.

And you don't recall, as you sit here now, and haven't recalled every time it was asked, specifically which gate you came in, true?

I think I've always thought it had to be Ashford because the way we parked the car.

You don't have a recollection in your mind's eye of even coming in the Ashford gate, do you, sir?

You don't have a recollection in your own mind of coming in from there; you're making an assumption because of where the car was parked, correct?

Correct.

All right. All right.

Now, the area where the car was parked, this little inlet area in the driveway of Mr. Simpson's property, that is an area that holds one, two, three cars? How many?

I think there can be a car -- I think there can be a car that will go --

We're back here.

-- here and here.

This car was more right here, where I could see the taillights.

And in your view, his car was -- that would be the back of it, wherever it went?

It was more out here, a little bit in there.

Like that.

I know I could see the back of it, though.

All right.

I don't remember this part actually sticking out this much.

There is a photograph.

Let's pull it up. I'll get it.

Take a ten-minute recess, ladies and gentlemen.