Re-redirect examination of Werner Spitz

📄 Re-redirect examination of Werner Spitz — Tuesday, November 12, 1996

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CIVIL\1996\NOV\12\RE-REDIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-WER.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 13 of 57

◀ Cross-examination of Werner Spitz (part 2) Cross-examination of Werner Spitz (part 3) ▶

Witness: Dr. Werner Spitz
Examiner: Robert Baker
Called by: Defense • Date: Tuesday, November 12, 1996 • Utterances: 129

Robert Baker recrosses plaintiff's forensic expert Dr. Werner Spitz, pressing him on the semantics of 'fingernail marks' vs. 'cuts,' the position of Nicole Brown Simpson's assailant, and the sequencing of Ron Goldman's wounds. Baker presents an elaborate hypothetical reconstruction of Goldman's murder — a prolonged, all-out fight ending with Goldman stabbed in the left flank as he lay down — which Spitz flatly rejects as 'totally impossible in so many places.'

# 1 Q:

Now, Doctor --

# 2 MR. BAKER:

Flip that back on, whatever number that is.

MR. P. BAKER: The finger?

# 3 MR. BAKER:

The finger.

# 4 Q:

(BY MR. BAKER) Now, Doctor, just a couple quick questions.

You've testified in your deposition, there was no typical fingernail marks, right?

# 5 A:

Yes.

# 6 Q:

All right. In every mark on that hand, some of us believe that we have had on our hands at some time without any fingernail coming anywhere near our hands.

# 7 A:

I'm sorry; say that again.

# 8 MR. MEDVENE:

Objection it's an argumentative statement.

# 9 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 10 Q:

(BY MR. BAKER) You know, when you get a cut on your hand and you don't -- get out of the shower or something and you see there's a couple scabs there and they look like the scabs that you say are fingernail cuts, here, and these are fingernail cuts there, and --

Have you ever had the experience of seeing scabs like that and you don't have any idea where they came from?

# 11 A:

Mr. Baker --

# 12 Q:

Have you ever had those types of scabs and have no idea -- on your hands and have no idea where they came from? Yes or no?

# 13 A:

Yes, I did.

# 14 Q:

Thank you.

Now, in terms, Doctor, of curves --

# 15 MR. BAKER:

Move that back a little bit.

# 16 Q:

(Continuing) -- these curves, cuts with curves, you say that's caused with the fingernails, that's caused by grabbing, right?

That's your view of how those cuts are incurred, correct?

# 17 A:

No, Mr. Baker. I never used, and never will use the word "cut" for a fingernail mark, because a fingernail mark is not a cut.

KEY QUOTE

# 18 Q:

Okay.

And I thought that you testified earlier that the Ron Goldman ones, the aorta was punctured, would lose consciousness very, very quickly?

# 19 A:

Yes, I did. But he wouldn't lose all of the consciousness all at one time.

# 20 Q:

Well, let me talk about the -- just the concept of consciousness okay?

# 21 MR. MEDVENE:

Objection, Your Honor. Outside the scope of redirect.

# 22 MR. BAKER:

I don't think so, sir.

# 23 THE COURT:

The question on redirect was time of death, as opposed to time of consciousness.

Sustained.

# 24 MR. BAKER:

May I be heard on that, Your Honor?

# 25 THE COURT:

No. We've been through this once already. Let's not belabor the same issues over --

# 26 MR. BAKER:

Okay.

# 27 Q:

(BY MR. BAKER) Okay. Let's put this other board up we had over here.

# 28 THE COURT:

You might turn it around the other way.

# 29 (Counsel displays exhibit)

# 30 Q:

(BY MR. BAKER) As I understand, sir, you are of the opinion, in the lower left-hand corner of Ms. Nicole Brown Simpson's mouth, she was punched, right?

# 31 A:

Yes.

# 32 Q:

And that punch, in your analysis of the situation, took place with the assailant in front of her, correct?

# 33 (No verbal response.)

# 34 Q:

They're going to get tougher, these questions.

# 35 A:

No, that's not a tough question. It's just that I'm thinking, would they necessarily have to be standing in front of her, because she is turning her face that way (indicating), then she is still, with her body facing forward, and with her face turned like (indicating) in my case, now turned to the left. And if the assailant is on her left, he could punch her and create the same injury.

# 36 Q:

Doctor, do you have an opinion, not if he was turned this way and she was turned that way and whatever -- you have testified in this court of law, that the assailant was in front of her for a period of time when she got the defensive wounds on her hand.

# 37 A:

Yes.

# 38 Q:

Did you form an opinion, yes or no, that these bruise marks, including the swelling, was made with the assailant in front of her?

# 39 A:

What swelling are you talking about?

# 40 Q:

You came up here and pointed out swelling on Ms. Nicole Brown Simpson's lip?

# 41 A:

Yes. This is -- I don't know if he's in front of her or if he's sideways.

# 42 Q:

And if the assailant is in front of her, that's consistent with being on the left side of her face, with someone attempting to make physical contact with the right fist, correct?

# 43 A:

I never said the right fist, did I?

# 44 Q:

I didn't ask you what you said; I asked you a question, sir: Is it not consistent with an assailant being in the front of Ms. Nicole Brown Simpson and making contact with her face with his right fist?

# 45 A:

Yes, it is consistent. However --

# 46 Q:

You've answered the question, sir.

It is also consistent that it had to happen early because there's swelling; and you testified on Friday, you wouldn't get a bruise and swelling after death, true?

# 47 A:

Yes.

# 48 Q:

Also, true that, if on your Exhibit 2167, the assailant is behind the victim, the knife has to be torqued around and come down; and then as you demonstrated right where I'm standing, then go sideways, left to right; isn't that true?

# 49 A:

No. Absolutely not.

# 50 Q:

Isn't it true, sir --

# 51 MR. BAKER:

Put up the picture with the, you know, Levi's.

# 52 Q:

(BY MR. BAKER) On this particular picture, you testified a few moments ago that you believe somebody moved Mr. Goldman's shirt to take that picture. Is that what you testified?

# 53 A:

I don't know if they did. All I said was that was a possibility. If you tell me that's not a possibility, so be it.

# 54 Q:

That would be evidence tampering, would it not, sir?

# 55 MR. MEDVENE:

Objection.

# 56 THE COURT:

Sustained. Jury to disregard that question.

# 57 Q:

(BY MR. BAKER) This indicates there is blood from that wound that is going from the left side of Mr. Goldman, down into the area of the dirt below him; is that not true. Sir?

# 58 A:

This indicates that there is a small amount of blood running downward, yes.

# 59 Q:

And there isn't any -- strike that.

# 60 MR. BAKER:

Put on the other photo. Yeah.

# 61 Q:

(BY MR. BAKER) Did you look at this photo, sir?

# 62 A:

Yes.

# 63 Q:

And that photo was represented to you to depict Mr. Goldman as he was discovered at the crime scene?

# 64 A:

Yes.

# 65 Q:

With his shirt up?

# 66 A:

This is out of focus.

# 67 Q:

I didn't ask you if it was in focus.

# 68 A:

Well, I can't see what you are talking about.

I'd like to see what you're talking about, too.

MR. P. BAKER: It's 38.

# 69 THE COURT:

Is that the best focus you can do?

# 70 (Referring to Exhibit 38.)

# 71 Q:

That was represented to you to be Mr. Goldman as he was found at the crime scene, with the shirt in the position that is depicted on Exhibit No. 38 on the monitor, true?

# 72 A:

Yes.

# 73 Q:

And that doesn't indicate to you that anybody has moved a shirt from one of those photos to the other, true?

# 74 A:

Possibly not.

# 75 Q:

And now, relative to your view that there would be great force, very high blood pressure from the puncture of the aorta, that would have taken place, in your opinion, as you indicated, first, one of the first wounds, true?

You're not following me?

# 76 A:

No.

# 77 Q:

You indicated when Mr. Medvene was asking you some questions about the great force, the great pressure of the aorta when it is perforated by this knife -- that is a knife five and a half inches long and at least a half an inch wide -- when it enters the aorta, right?

# 78 A:

I indicated that the pressure in the arterial system of the body is increased during an altercation, and that it is anyhow very -- quite high and much higher than in the venous system.

# 79 Q:

You have testified before, sir, that if in fact there is an aneurysm -- the lining between the aorta and the peritoneum -- the peritoneal cavity, the -- namely, the peritoneum is so thin and the blood pressure is so great, it will burst through the peritoneum and bleed into the peritoneal cavity, right?

# 80 MR. MEDVENE:

Objection. Assumes facts not in evidence. I believe it misstates his testimony.

# 81 DR. WERNER SPITZ:

I don't think I said that.

# 82 MR. BAKER:

Have you never --

# 83 MR. MEDVENE:

I thought he was talking about here, Your Honor.

# 84 Q:

(BY MR. BAKER) You have never said that in any of your testimony, correct?

I'm not talking about this case; I'm talking about any case ever -- never testified under penalty of perjury, or written in any book, that if in fact you have an aneurysm of the aorta, where you have it in the location below the rib cage, that it will cause enough pressure to perforate the peritoneum and bleed into the peritoneal cavity?

# 85 MR. MEDVENE:

Objection. Outside the scope of redirect.

# 86 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 87 DR. WERNER SPITZ:

No. I don't see how there will be 100 ml or 100 cc's of blood entering the peritoneal cavity, other than the perforation by the tip of the knife as it goes through the aorta, perforation of the peritoneum, which covers the aorta and the tip of the knife, makes a hole in the peritoneum, and small amount of blood enters the peritoneal cavity.

# 88 Q:

And I think we've discussed at some length that blood, like other fluid, takes the path of least resistance, whether under pressure or not, correct?

# 89 A:

I, to this -- I know you have brought that up, but I don't know what you mean by that.

# 90 Q:

Well, does not fluid, such as blood, take the path of least resistance; that is, it will flow to the area of least resistance, doesn't flow uphill; it flows downhill, doesn't flow into solid space, flows into where there's a space for adequate volume for the fluid to flow to; isn't that what path of least resistance means?

# 91 A:

Well, that my be true when blood from the top of the mountain flows into the valley. I don't know if that's applicable to what happened here.

# 92 Q:

Let me give you a hypothetical.

You have determined, based on your analysis of the case, that the wounds to the chest occurred late because there is a lack of blood in the right chest cavity, true?

# 93 MR. MEDVENE:

Objection, Your Honor. Outside the scope of redirect.

# 94 MR. BAKER:

He talked about that.

# 95 THE COURT:

He did. Overruled.

# 96 DR. WERNER SPITZ:

Can you ask me again?

# 97 Q:

(BY MR. BAKER) Well, in terms, sir, of your analysis and the timing of the wounds, it was your conclusion, was it not, that the wounds to the chest that perforated into the thoracic or lung cavity, and perforated the lungs themselves, occurred late in the struggle, because there was a small amount of blood accumulated in the right pleural cavity?

# 98 A:

Yes.

# 99 Q:

All right.

Now, I want you to assume the following facts to be true. I want you to assume that, as this altercation takes place, the first wound is the internal jugular vein. And I want you to assume that Mr. Goldman continues to fight after the initial injury to the internal jugular vein.

And I want you to assume that there is an all-out war in the area, six feet by four feet.

And I want you to further assume that after Mr. Goldman has fought, bruised Mr. Simpson, or the assailant in multiple places, because there is a huge fight in that area and he is fighting for his life.

I want you to further assume that after all of this occurs, there is stab wounds to his hands, to his neck, to his head. That then there is a wound. He -- strike that -- then he goes down on his right side.

And as he is down on his right side, the last wound is the wound with his left flank sticking in the air, and the assailants or assailant puts a knife into that area.

That would be consistent with 100 cc's of blood going into the peritoneal cavity; that would be consistent with the wounds and the chest wounds taking place just before he goes down; and that could be -- would be consistent with him fighting for a period of time. And all of the hole being dug. There's an envelope, pager being spread throughout the area: Blood at the front pole, blood on the north gate, blood on the east side, blood pools on the north side. You would agree or disagree?

# 100 MR. MEDVENE:

Objection, your honor. Improper hypothetical.

# 101 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 102 MR. MEDVENE:

Also compound.

# 103 DR. WERNER SPITZ:

This scenario that you have indicated is a different case. That is totally impossible in so many places. I'd have to go through them and tell you.

KEY QUOTE

# 104 Q:

Thank you.

Now, doctor, one area -- and I'm going to put up this hand. You talked about abrasions and this hand being consistent with --

MR. P. BAKER: 878.

# 105 (Exhibit 878 displayed.)

# 106 Q:

(Continuing) -- Consistent with scraping himself on the ground, correct?

# 107 A:

Yes, sir.

# 108 Q:

There's no scrapings in the area over the knuckle, is there, sir?

# 109 A:

No, there's no scraping. That's the only place where there's no scrape.

# 110 Q:

There's no scraping there, is there?

# 111 A:

I'm not so sure about that, because there is a scraping here; there is a scraping here. (Indicating.)

# 112 Q:

Was that a finger?

# 113 A:

Excuse me. You asked me the question. I'd like to answer it.

There's a scraping here, here, here, here, there, there, and there and over these and here and here and there. (Indicating.)

# 114 MR. MEDVENE:

If the record could show that Dr. Spitz has pointed out scrapings on each of the four fingers shown in various locations on each finger.

# 115 THE COURT:

So indicated.

# 116 Q:

(BY MR. BAKER) Are those fingernail cuts?

# 117 A:

No.

# 118 Q:

They're not typical of fingernail cuts, are they?

# 119 A:

They are not, not typical. A fingernail cut does not have a bruise around it.

# 120 Q:

Doctor, are they typical of fingernail cuts?

# 121 A:

No; they're not fingernail cuts.

# 122 Q:

Thank you.

# 123 MR. BAKER:

Your Honor --

# 124 A:

They're not fingernail marks. There is no such thing as a fingernail cut.

# 125 Q:

A fingernail quasi cut?

# 126 A:

0h, yeah.

# 127 Q:

That's what you called them, fingernail quasi cuts.

# 128 THE COURT:

Let's not go through that again.

KEY QUOTE

# 129 MR. BAKER:

I don't have anything further.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (4)

Witness

I never used, and never will use the word 'cut' for a fingernail mark, because a fingernail mark is not a cut.

Spitz refuses to yield on precise forensic terminology, undermining Baker's attempt to conflate the two and minimize the significance of the wounds.

Witness

This scenario that you have indicated is a different case. That is totally impossible in so many places. I'd have to go through them and tell you.

Spitz's blunt rejection of Baker's carefully constructed hypothetical fight sequence — the centerpiece of the defense's alternative theory — is a key moment of the cross.

Witness

Well, that may be true when blood from the top of the mountain flows into the valley. I don't know if that's applicable to what happened here.

Spitz deflects Baker's 'path of least resistance' blood-flow argument with a slightly wry non-answer, refusing to concede the analogy.

Hiroshi Fujisaki

Let's not go through that again.

The judge cuts off Baker's renewed attempt to relitigate the fingernail-mark terminology dispute at the very end of the examination.

Evidence (3)

Exhibit 2167

Diagram or image referenced in Baker's question about assailant position behind victim requiring knife to be 'torqued'

discussed

Exhibit 38

Photo of Ron Goldman as discovered at crime scene, showing shirt position

discussed — Baker used it to challenge Spitz's suggestion that the shirt may have been moved

Exhibit 878

Close-up photo of hand showing abrasions/scrapings across fingers

displayed — Spitz pointed to multiple scrape locations on each finger; Baker confirmed none were fingernail marks

Notable Exchanges (3)

Robert Baker•Witness

Baker builds a long, multi-part hypothetical about Goldman's murder sequence — jugular first, prolonged fight, Goldman going down on his right side, final stab to left flank — and asks if this scenario is consistent with the evidence. Spitz says it is 'totally impossible in so many places.'

strategic/confrontational

Robert Baker•Witness

Repeated sparring over whether the marks on Nicole's hand are 'fingernail cuts.' Spitz insists there is 'no such thing as a fingernail cut,' only fingernail marks. Baker sarcastically offers 'fingernail quasi cut' before Fujisaki shuts it down.

combative/semantic

Robert Baker•Witness

Baker asks if someone moving Goldman's shirt for a photo would constitute evidence tampering. Medvene objects and is sustained; the jury is told to disregard the question.

provocative

Light Moments (2)

Robert Baker

Baker tells Spitz 'They're going to get tougher, these questions' when the witness pauses — a dry aside that drew no response.

Robert Baker

Baker offers the term 'fingernail quasi cut' to tease Spitz after the doctor insists 'there is no such thing as a fingernail cut.' Fujisaki immediately: 'Let's not go through that again.'

Credibility Attacks (3)

⚔ Dr. Spitz

prior inconsistent statement / scope limitation

Baker challenges whether Spitz ever testified or wrote that aortic pressure could perforate the peritoneum — framing it as an overreach of his prior opinion. Spitz clarifies his actual position.

⚔ Dr. Spitz

hypothetical reframing

Baker constructs an elaborate alternative fight sequence and asks Spitz to validate it, hoping to show the physical evidence is consistent with a scenario other than Spitz's. Spitz rejects it wholesale.

⚔ Crime scene investigators (unnamed)

evidence tampering implication

Baker asks Spitz whether moving Goldman's shirt between photos would constitute evidence tampering — an objection was sustained and the jury instructed to disregard.

Witness Demeanor

(No verbal response.) — Spitz pauses to think when asked if assailant had to be in front of Nicole

(Indicating.) — Spitz physically points to multiple scraping locations on fingers in Exhibit 878

Spitz corrects Baker mid-answer: 'Excuse me. You asked me the question. I'd like to answer it.'

Objections

7 objections (3 sustained, 3 overruled)

Proceeding 8229 • 129 utterances • Defense witness

Civil Trial

Department 103