People call detective Vannatter.

Mr. Uelmen, exhibits G-1, -2 and -3 are on the witness stand. Would you mind collecting those, please.

Certainly.

Detective, you were sworn yesterday in connection with these proceedings; so you may retake the witness stand. I remind you are still under oath.

Yes, your Honor. phillip vannatter, recalled as a witness by and on behalf of the People, having been previously duly sworn, resumed the stand, was examined and testified further as follows:

State your name, for the record.

Phillip Vannatter.

Spell your last name, please.

V, as in Victor, -a-n-n-a-t-t-e-r.

Miss Clark.

Thank you, your Honor.

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MS. CLARK:

Detective Vannatter, tell us what you do for a living.

Yes. I am a police detective, Los Angeles police department, assigned to robbery-homicide division, homicide special section.

And how long have you been assigned to homicide special section of the robbery-homicide division?

I have been assigned to robbery-homicide division for 15 years and homicide special section for about 8 years.

How long have you been on the force altogether?

25-1/2 years this month.

And how many homicides have you investigated in those 25-1/2 years?

Well, I have been assigned actually working homicides starting 1973 and have probably been personally involved in over 200 and have probably been to or assisted in 5- to 600 crime scenes.

Can you tell us what the robbery-homicide division does?

I can tell you what the homicide special section does, yes.

OKAY.

We are a section set up to handle high profile or very involved or serial-type murder investigations.

And in that regard, sir, with respect to the case now before the court, what is your role in this case?

What is my role?

Yes.

I was assigned this case at -- I got the original phone call on the 13th of June at 3 o'clock in the morning. I responded to the scene and took charge of the investigation.

So you are one of the investigating officers in charge of this case?

That's correct, yes.

And how many others are there?

Well, there's my partner, detective Tom Lange.

And is he also assigned to the robbery-homicide, homicide special?

Yes.

You got the call, you tell us, at 3 o'clock in the morning?

I got the original phone call at my home at 3 o'clock in the morning. That's correct.

And where did you go pursuant to that call?

I was instructed to go to 875 south Bundy. I prepared myself and responded to that location.

What time did you arrive?

At 4:05 in the morning.

What did you see when you got there?

I was met by detective phillips and detective Mark Fuhrman. Detective phillips is the homicide coordinator for west Los Angeles division. I was told that there was a double homicide at that location and that one of the victims had been identified as nicole simpson. Detective phillips further told me that two minor children, two small children, had been taken from the residence and were presently in custody at West L.A. division.

Now, did someone walk you through the crime scene so that you could see what you had there?

Yes.

Who was that?

Detective phillips gave me a walk-through of the crime scene.

Now, when you say "a walk-through," did you step through the evidence?

No. We approached the actual scene of the two victims through a planter area that would have been south of the actual location of the two victims; and then after viewing that location, he gave me a walk through the walkway that headed west, to the back of the apartment building, that led to the alley.

So you stood from a position where you would not disturb anything in terms of the crime scene or the evidence in it?

Definitely. I was standing in the foliage in a planter.

Can you please describe for us the condition in which you found the victims in this case?

Yes. Nicole Simpson was lying at the entrance gate, on the walkway right in front of the front step that stepped up to go up toward the residence. The gate was open. And ron Goldman was lying directly north of her location, in a planter area that would have been on the north side of the walkway.

Now, were you able to tell what the cause of death was at that point?

No. I could not. It appeared to be massive injuries. There was a lot of blood. Blood had actually drained and run down the walkway towards the sidewalk. There was a lot of blood there. I couldn't tell other than there was some type of massive injury.

Now, were you able to see any evidence near either one of the victims?

Yes.

What did you see?

Did you go into any other areas of the crime scene to examine them other than that front area where you saw the victims?

Yes.

Where did you go?

Detective phillips took me west on the walkway that would be on the north side of the residence to show Me -- and I observed -- bloody footprints leading -- that appeared to be leading from the actual crime scene, the location of the two victims, to the rear of the building, along the walkway. I also observed as he was showing me, as we are going through, blood droplets that appeared to be not associated with the two victims, as if the person leaving the bloody footprints was dripping blood from something, as they appeared to be straight-down drops on the ground.

Did they appear to you -- those blood drops -- to be alongside the bloody footprints?

Yes, definitely.

When you say "footprints," were those barefoot prints?

No. They were shoe prints.

Could you see a heel in those prints?

There was a pattern, yes. I could see a pattern.

I'm sorry. Did you say to what side of the footprints you were seeing the blood drops?

to the left side.

Thank you. Now, having made the observations you did at the crime scene, sir, did you continue to confer with the West L.A. detectives, detective Fuhrman and detective phillips?

Yes, that's correct.

Why did you do that if this was your case?

I was awaiting the arrival of my partner, who was approximately 20 to 25 minutes behind me. I instructed the two West L.A. detectives we would take charge of the scene; and I waited for my partner to arrive to acclimate him with the scene, also.

At some point did you leave the scene of 875 south Bundy?

Yes.

Why did you do that?

Well, a number of reasons. Knowing that one of the victims had been identified as nicole Simpson, knowing that her husband -- or ex-husband at that point was a very well-known person; that we had two children in custody, two minor children that had been taken from this very traumatic scene, we made a determination to go to Mr. Simpson's residence and attempt to notify him of the death before the media got word of it and to also make arrangements for the disposition of the two children that were his children.

So who went with you to the location of Mr. Simpson's residence?

There were three others besides myself. Myself and my partner and detective Fuhrman and detective phillips.

Why did detective phillips and detective Fuhrman go with you?

They had been originally involved in the investigation. They were assisting us. And we went up there for a number of reasons. Again, I say -- also, knowing the close proximity of the crime scene to where Mr. Simpson lived, it was also my feeling, my belief, that we needed to check the welfare up there, also. This was a very traumatic, bloody scene.

Tell me, sir -- so you drove actually that night from 875 south Bundy to 360 Rockingham avenue?

That's correct.

Can you estimate for us about how long it took you to get from 875 south Bundy to 360 Rockingham avenue?

Probably not more than five minutes.

So what happened after you got to the Rockingham avenue address?

We drove up Rockingham north from sunset boulevard to Ashford street. We turned right, east, and parked at the curb and walked to the gate. And as I drove in, I noticed a white ford bronco parked at the -- this would be the east curb of Rockingham -- parked on the Ashford south curb and got out and attempted to utilize the intercom to raise someone in the home.

And the intercom you are talking about, where was that located?

That intercom is located on the east side of the Ashford street gate. And looking at this diagram, it would have been right in this area right here.

For the record, the witness has pointed To -- it is hard to describe -- the area where what appears to be a wall indicated up by Ashford street meets the edge of the driveway that is to the right, the right edge of the driveway.

All right.

BY MS. CLARK:

Was that a button you pressed?

Yes, that's correct.

When you pressed the button, could you hear anything?

Yes. I could hear the phone ringing inside the residence.

Did you get any response?

No.

When you drove to the Ashford street side, did you come up Rockingham first?

Yes, that's correct.

As you drove up Rockingham, did you notice whether there were any cars parked outside the Rockingham gate in front of the residence?

Yes, I did.

What did you notice?

I noticed a white ford bronco parked at the east curb of Rockingham just north of the Rockingham gate to the residence.

Showing you the exhibits that have been previously marked collectively People's 8, can you tell me if you recognize what you see there in photograph -a, -b and -c?

Yes. I do.

What is that?

That is the ford bronco that was parked at the curb.

So you rang the first time and you received no answer. What did you do next?

well, we rang the bell for a period of time, probably 10 to 15 minutes, attempting to raise someone in the residence. There was a light on on the bottom floor. It appeared to be toward the south side of the house. There was also a light on in the upstairs portion of the home. We rang the bell for a period of time, trying to get some response; and we didn't.

Could you estimate how long you rang the bell for, without getting a response?

Oh, I believe it was in the area of 10 to 15 minutes, probably. During this time I noticed a westec security sign, which is a private security company that works in that area; And I requested detective phillips to contact them to see if we could get a telephone phone number for the residence.

And did he do so?

Yes.

Did you have a phone with you, a mobile phone?

He did. I didn't.

Did he use that to make a phone call to westec?

Yes.

And after making that phone call, what happened next?

We continued to ring the bell. In the meantime I walked back around -- while the other detectives were there, I walked back around and looked at the ford bronco and noticed the bronco was parked like it had been hastily parked at the curb, with the front end a little closer to the curb than the rear end. And detective Fuhrman was with me -- or there when I got there, and he directed me to look in the rear of the vehicle. In the rear there was a package that was addressed, I believe, to Orenthal productions. There was a shovel and a piece of plastic wrapped up in it.

I'm sorry, sir; But the package you said was addressed to Orenthal productions, did that mean something to you?

Yeah. It indicated to me it was most likely Mr. Simpson's vehicle because I knew his name was Orenthal.

OKAY.

I asked detective Fuhrman to run a department of motor vehicle registration check on the vehicle.

Did he give you the results of that check?

Yes.

And what was the result?

That the vehicle was registered to Hertz Corp.

And what, if any, significance did that information have to you?

Well, I knew that Mr. Simpson was a spokesperson for Hertz Corp. I believed it was his vehicle.

So you made the observations of the ford bronco?

Yes.

Then what?

Walked back around. By this time westec had sent a unit to our location.

Did you speak to them?

Detective phillips did.

In your presence?

Yeah. I was standing back. I didn't hear the total context of the conversation, but detective phillips told me that he was having a hard time securing a phone number for the location and they were sending a supervisor to the scene.

Did you or detective phillips find out whether westec had been given advance notice that the defendant was going to be out of town?

Yes.

And what was that information?

The information was that westec had no prior knowledge of any travel plans for the occupants of that residence. And they also informed us there was supposed to be a live-in maid at the location.

Did you wait for a supervisor from westec to come out and give you the home phone number?

Yes.

And what did you do in the meantime?

We still attempted to ring the bell to raise someone in the residence. At that point I was becoming a little worried. It seemed like there were lights on. We knew there was supposed to be a maid there. And we were getting no response. During this period of time, detective Fuhrman came to me and directed me back to the ford bronco and --

What did he tell you?

Pardon?

What did he tell you?

He told me he saw what he thought -- what he believed to be blood on the car, and he directed me back to the vehicle and pointed out an area along the driver's side door handle of the car. I looked at it; and it appeared to be blood to me, also. At that point I told detective Fuhrman that I was really worried based on the fact we had a very violent murder scene within five minutes of Mr. Simpson's residence; we had no knowledge of any travel plans that he had; the security company was not notified; there was supposed to be a live-in maid there; there were lights on in the residence; and there appeared to be blood on the outside. I become very concerned at that point.

Now, at some point did the westec supervisor arrive?

Yeah. He was there. He came. He gave a phone number to detective phillips.

And did you dial that phone number?

Detective phillips did with his mobile phone, yes.

What was the result of that?

We got an answerphone from inside the residence, indicating -- the voice on the answerphone -- something to the extent, "this is O.J. I am not here. Leave a Message" -- Something like that.

So there was no response using the phone number?

No. There was an answerphone.

So at this point, having received no response through phone calls to the house or ringing at the gate, with lights on in the house and all that you learned from westec, you saw the blood on the bronco?

That's correct.

What did you decide to do?

Your Honor, I am going to object to the form of the question.

Mr. Shapiro, Mr. Uelmen is apparently handling this part of the motion.

I am going to do this witness.

You are going to do it?

Yes. So I would make an objection at this point in time that the question -- 90 percent of it is restating his testimony. The question was what did you do next. Motion to strike the question.

The question is not evidence.

I understand that, but we object to the form of the question.

Miss Clark, I really am paying attention. You don't have to repeat everything.

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to indicate you weren't. I was just making a foundational showing with the officer to bring him along.

So based on all you knew, what did you decide to do?

I conferred with my partner very briefly, told him my concerns and made a decision we should go in there to check and see if everything was okay.

What were your concerns, sir?

Well, my concern was, again, we were within five minutes of a very, very brutal murder scene. I knew the scene was connected with Mr. Simpson because it was -- his ex-wife and children were there. After arriving there and learning that no one had any knowledge of any prior travel plans, seeing lights on in the residence, being told that there should be a live-in maid, I was concerned that something had occurred there, whether I had a second murder scene, whether I had someone injured, whether I had someone that was stalking Mr. Simpson and his wife, whatever. I became concerned someone could be hurt or injured in that location.

At that point, how long had you been outside the residence at 360 Rockingham, attempting to reach someone inside?

I would have to estimate that. I would say in the vicinity of 40 minutes.

Did you make any attempt to verify whether the blood, what you thought was blood on the Bronco, was indeed blood?

Yes. After I was shown the area and come to the conclusion that it looked like blood to me, I requested a criminalist to respond to my location, knowing that regardless of what I had there, whether I had another scene, someone injured or whatever, there was going to have to be collection of evidence. So I requested a criminalist respond to my location.

And to confirm or refute what you thought was blood?

Exactly, yes.

So at that point, what did you decide to do?

Go over the wall.

Did you go over the wall?

No. No. I asked detective Fuhrman to. He's younger and I believe probably a little more athletic than me, so I asked him to go over the wall.

And he did?

Yes.

What happened next?

He opened the gate by releasing a hinge, and we walked to the front door of the residence, knocked on the door several times, got no response.

After knocking several times and getting no response, what did you do next?

Again, I still had the concern that there could be -- that this could be a second crime scene, a second murder scene. So we began checking the property to insure that no one was hurt, injured or not a second scene there. So we moved from the front door area around the north side of the residence to check the area to make sure no one was down or whatever, and moved to the back of the residence.

For the record, the witness was pointing to the path indicated by two parallel lines curved through what appears to be an indication of foliage on the illustration, on the Ashford side of the residence.

BY MS. CLARK:

And did you go -- where did you go when you went up through that Ashford side of the residence?

I was actually behind, my partner and detective Phillips were in front, and as I walked through, I noticed a pool area, a tennis court area behind, and I was looking -- actually, I was looking to see if I could see anything on the grounds as I'm going back.

What do you mean by "anything"?

Any persons down, anybody hurt, anything. I didn't really know at that point what I had or what I was looking for.

Did you -- so you were just walking back there and scanning the area?

Yes. As I walked back on the walkway.

Was it lit back there?

No.

What was the lighting like?

No, no, it was dark.

Where did you go?

I followed detective Phillips and my partner, Detective Lange, to a guest house area which is at the rear location on the south side of the property.

Do you see that indicated on the defendant's exhibit?

Yes, I do.

Can you point it out for us.

Yes. I crossed along the back of the residence, between the pool and the home, into this area.

Shall I hold it up, Your Honor, so you can see?

That's all right. If I stand up, I can see.

BY MS. CLARK:

Can you point that out for the court, please?

Yes. We came down the walkway, around the back of the residence, observed this area and walked over here and started to knock on the doorway.

And is that the area on the diagram marked "Kato's room"?

That's correct, yes.

Were you standing at the door of Kato's room when someone knocked?

I was standing back. I was up -- there's, I believe, three steps that go down to a walkway to the door. I was standing up at the top of the steps when detective Phillips knocked on the door.

What happened next?

The door was answered fairly quickly by -- it turned out to be Brian Kaelin. Detective Phillips asked him if there was anybody else on the property, and he said yes, Arnelle Simpson was in the room next door, which would be the room which would be directly south of where he was at.

On the defense diagram?

Yes.

And is that marked as "Arnelle's room" on the diagram?

That's correct.

Prior to doing so, did he or you or anyone in your presence inform Kato that -- what was going on, what had transpired?

No one did in my presence, no.

Do you know what, if anything, they gave him as a reason for needing to contact someone who could gain access to the main house?

You know, I didn't talk to him at that time. I don't really know.

You don't know what the conversation was with him.

No.

After he -- after this Kato directed you to Arnelle's room, what did you do?

I followed my partner. My partner knocked on the door, and it was fairly quickly opened by Arnelle Simpson.

So you did not remain with Kato.

No.

Did anyone?

Detective Fuhrman, I believe, remained with Kato at that point.

When you went to Arnelle's room, what happened?

She answered the door, and I believe detective Phillips had come up. And detective Phillips told her that we needed to get in touch with her father, did she know where he was at, and she responded -- she answered the question with another question. She pointed toward the house and said, "isn't he here?"

Indicating the house when she said "here."

Yes. And I asked her, "well, is he? I don't know. Is he here?" And she looked sort of quizzical and she says at that point -- either -- I believe myself, I asked her, "do you have a key? Can we check to see if your father is here? We need to get in touch with him." And she said, "yes, I have a key," and she took us into the house.

Did you or anyone in your presence inform her of why you were there in these early morning hours asking about her father?

I believe she was informed as we walked toward the house by my partner that we were investigating a double homicide that involved Nicole Brown.

Was there any indication given to her at her door, at her door of the guest unit, that there was something going on, an emergency?

Yeah. That it was an emergency, that we needed to contact her father.

So she opened the door with a key?

Yes.

And invited you in?

Yes.

Once you got in the house, what did you do?

I immediately asked her -- knowing that there was supposed to be a maid there, I asked her, "where is the maid's quarters? Isn't there supposed to be a maid here?" And she took me through the back of the house into the kitchen to an area off the utility room that would be on the south side of the kitchen.

Why did you ask her to do that, take you to see the maid?

Because I was worried. I didn't know what was going on. I didn't know whether the maid was there, whether she was injured, whether she'd been murdered or what. I needed to find out.

So she took -- Arnelle took you to the maid's bedroom?

She took me to the room, opened the door and you could look in and see that there was no one there.

Did you see any -- did you look to see whether there was any signs of struggle or violence that occurred in there?

There didn't appear to be in that area of the house, no.

Now, why was it that you asked to go into the house to check on the whereabouts of the defendant?

To try and find out if he was in the house or if the maid was in the house or if anybody was in the house.

But you received no response when you called the phone and rang the bell on the intercom. Didn't that tell you that he certainly was not at home and the maid was not at home?

No, no, not at all. Going back, again, we had knowledge that Westec had no prior knowledge that there was any travel plans. We had knowledge that there was supposed to be a live-in maid. We had just come from a very violent murder scene. We see what we believe to be blood. We could have had a second murder scene there or we could have had someone injured there. We needed to check that.

So you were inside the house with Arnelle after seeing the maid's room. What did you do next?

She came back into the kitchen area where my partner and detective Phillips was and there was -- this is all happening very quickly. She -- I believe she told detective Phillips that she could find out her father's location by calling his office. They would always know where he was at. And she placed a phone call.

Now, while she was placing that phone call, where were you?

I had moved back toward the back of the house. I was intending on going out to look around the grounds.

What for?

To see if there was anybody hurt or injured there.

Where were the other detectives?

Detective Lange was with detective Phillips, and detective Fuhrman was -- I still -- I believe still in the back with Brian Kato.

Now, you say Detective Lange and detective Phillips. Where were they?

They were in the kitchen area with Arnelle Simpson.

With Arnelle. Did you search the house?

I briefly looked as I moved back toward the back. I didn't see anything unusual in that portion of the house. And shortly thereafter, detective Fuhrman came to me and says, "hey, you've got to talk to" -- he was calling him Kato, Brian Kaelin. "Listen to what he has to say."

When I say did you search the house, did you go upstairs, look around?

No, no.

Did you go into the den area or the living room areas or the dining room areas?

I could see the majority of the downstairs of the house from where I was at.

Did you go look under cushions or in cabinets or --

No.

-- Linen closets?

No.

As you -- so the nature of your search -- quote, unquote -- was that you walked to the back of the house and looked around to make sure you saw no one.

Exactly. I was looking for people, not other things.

People, not evidence.

Yeah.

Were you present in the house while Arnelle made the phone call to try and locate her father?

I believe at that point when she was making the phone call is when I started walking toward the back and was shortly thereafter approached by detective Fuhrman who directed me to sit down at the bar area and talk to Kato.

And did you do that?

Yes, I did.

What did Kato tell you?

Well, prior to that, detective Fuhrman had told me that Kato had told him that he'd heard a very loud noise on the south side of his room, and that he was going to go back there and check and see if everything was okay. And he told me, "ask him, or have him tell you about this noise that he heard." And I sat down there and talked with him, and he told me that evening he had heard a very loud thumping noise outside, that he had thought it was an earthquake, and it had actually moved a picture on the wall of his room.

Having heard that, what did you think?

Well, again, I had the same suspicion. It's very unusual to hear loud thumping noises outside your bedroom. I thought possibly somebody was hurt or somebody was down out there, and that's why detective Fuhrman was going to that location to check.

At that point when you sat down and talked to Kato, had contact, to your knowledge, yet been made with the defendant?

I believe it was being made at that point.

Were you privy to that conversation?

No, I was not.

And when I say "that conversation," I mean between the detectives and the defendant.

No, I was not.

At the point that you spoke to Kato, what were your concerns?

My concerns that -- again, knowing all the information I knew, my concern was that someone was hurt, someone had been killed, someone had been injured at that location.

After receiving that information from Kato, what happened next?

Well, while I talked with Kato in the bar area, which is to the rear of the house -- there was a bar area set up -- within probably 10 to 15 minutes, detective Fuhrman came to me and said, "you've got to come with me and see this," and he led me to the south side of the house.

Detective Fuhrman did that?

Yes.

Do you know whether before he took you outside you saw him leave the house with anyone else?

Detective Fuhrman?

Yes.

The last time I saw detective Fuhrman he was by himself.

Then you were not privy to his movements, I take it?

No.

Okay. Where did he take you?

Do you want me to show you with the pointer?

Sure. On the defense diagram?

Yes. He took me from the back area of the house, around the north side, crossed the front and into a small walkway on the south side of the residence, which would be the common wall that connects the main residence with the guest house residence on the south side -- on the south side here.

He didn't take you out the front door?

You know, I believe you're right. I believe he did take me through the house and out the front door, now that I think about it. There was a lot of movement going on, but I think you're right. I think we walked from the back through the front door and then came around.

Your Honor, I'm going to object to the form of the question. It clearly obviously was leading and suggestive. The officer now is saying, "yes, you're right." He's referring to the leading and suggestive nature. It's totally improper, should not have been asked, and the answer should be stricken.

Overruled.

Your Honor, I think a simple --

Overruled, Ms. Clark.

All right.

We are going to take the morning break at this time -- it is a little after 10:15 -- for 15 minutes. I remind you, please do not discuss your testimony with anyone. And we'll continue in 15 minutes.