Kato Kaelin Deposition — Day 1

📄 Kato Kaelin Deposition — Day 1

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◀ Kim Goldman Day 1 Kato Kaelin Day 2 ▶

Deposition of Kato Kaelin

Day: 1 • Date: Wednesday, February 14, 1996 • Examinations: 1 • Utterances: 3,904

1 Direct examination of Brian "Kato" Kaelin by Daniel Petrocelli

Examiner: Daniel Petrocelli • Type: direct • 3904 utterances

🛡️ Phillip Baker 📜 Daniel Petrocelli 👤 Michael Plotkin 🛡️ Robert Baker

Daniel Petrocelli examines Kato Kaelin (Brian Kaelin) about his life at the Rockingham guesthouse and his interactions with O.J. Simpson on June 11-12, 1994. Kaelin describes OJ as lonely and frustrated, recounting conversations about Nicole's IRS address use, a returned bracelet given to Paula Barbieri, and OJ's agitation after the dance recital over Nicole's miniskirt attire and her 'playing hardball' with the kids. The examination is frequently interrupted by defense attorney Baker objecting to Petrocelli cutting off the witness, creating a contentious procedural dynamic throughout.

# 1 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Daniel Petrocelli of Mitchell, Silberberg & Knupp for plaintiff Fredric Goldman.

# 2 MICHAEL BREWER:

Michael Brewer for plaintiff Sharon Rufo.

# 3 PHILLIP BAKER:

Phil Baker for defendant.

# 4 MICHAEL PLOTKIN:

Michael Plotkin for the witness, Brian Kaelin.

# 5 ROBERT GROMAN:

Arthur Groman. Mitchell, Silberberg & Knupp, for plaintiff Goldman.

# 6

BRIAN KAELIN, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

# 7 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

And also present is defendant Orenthal James Simpson.

# 8

EXAMINATION

# 9

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 10 Q:

Good morning, Mr. Kaelin. My name is Daniel Petrocelli. I represent the plaintiff Fred Goldman.

# 11 A:

Morning.

# 12 Q:

You see Mr. Simpson down at the table there. Right?

# 13 A:

Yes.

# 14 Q:

When is the last time you spoke to Mr. Simpson?

# 15 A:

I believe it was Monday. June 13th.

# 16 Q:

And you haven't seen him since?

# 17 A:

I saw him in court.

# 18 Q:

You haven't talked to him since?

# 19 A:

No.

# 20 Q:

You haven't spoken alone with him since. Is that right?

# 21 A:

Yes.

# 22 Q:

Okay. You lived at Mr. Simpson's home on Rockingham in 1994?

# 23 A:

Yes.

# 24 Q:

And you lived in a guest house?

# 25 A:

Yes. I did.

# 26 Q:

Did you have a key.

# 27 A:

Yes.

# 28 Q:

Did that key work on any other doors at the house?

# 29 A:

Just to the--my guest house.

# 30 Q:

Did you have access to the security code?

# 31 A:

No.

# 32 Q:

Did you have a security system with respect to the door to your guest house?

# 33 A:

No.

# 34 Q:

Did you have any remote controls to operate either the gates-

# 35 A:

No.

# 36 Q:

--to the property

# 37 A:

No, I didn't.

# 38 Q:

And by "the gates" I mean the Rockingham or Ashford gates.

# 39 A:

I had a key to Rockingham, to the Rockingham gate. I could turn a key, and it would open up the gate.

# 40 Q:

Did you have any other keys besides the Rockingham key and your door key?

# 41 A:

I did not.

# 42 Q:

Prior to June 12, 1994 had you ever set the alarm at the Simpson house?

# 43 A:

Never.

# 44 Q:

Had you ever been asked to?

# 45 A:

No.

# 46 Q:

Had you ever been told the code?

# 47 A:

No.

# 48 Q:

You moved in when?

# 49 PHILLIP BAKER:

To Rockingham?

# 50 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Yeah.

# 51 KATO KAELIN:

To Rockingham?

BY MR. PETROCELLI

# 52 Q:

Yeah. You moved into Rockingham when?

# 53 A:

The exact date. I think it was in January of '94. I think it might have been the 7th.

# 54 Q:

Were you best friends with O.J. Simpson?

# 55 A:

No.

# 56 PHILLIP BAKER:

Object as vague.

BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Did you move in there to be best pals with him?

# 57 A:

No.

# 58 Q:

Did you spend large amounts of time with him?

# 59 A:

No.

# 60 Q:

Did the two of you hang out together quite a bit?

# 61 A:

No.

# 62 PHILLIP BAKER:

I will object again as to vague as to the term "quite a bit."

# 63

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 64 Q:

Did you go out to dinner a lot?

# 65 A:

No.

# 66 Q:

Did you go out on double dates or anything like that?

# 67 A:

No.

# 68 Q:

You were basically a house guest. Is that right?

# 69 A:

Yes.

# 70 Q:

You were living on the property. Right?

# 71 A:

Yeah.

# 72 Q:

And you weren't in there because you were a close friend of his. Right?

# 73 A:

Right. I was just there.

# 74 Q:

Was there a dog on the property?

# 75 A:

Yes, there was Chachi, the dog.

# 76 Q:

What was the name of the dog?

# 77 A:

Chachi.

# 78 Q:

What was the color of Chachi?

# 79 A:

Black.

# 80 Q:

Did Chachi live there on June 12, 1994?

# 81 A:

Yes. he did.

# 82 Q:

Chachi a young dog or old dog?

# 83 A:

Old dog.

# 84 Q:

Chachi have any physical impediments?

# 85 A:

I thought Chachi had arthritis. I don't know. He had a limp.

# 86 Q:

Limp?

# 87 A:

Yeah.

# 88 Q:

In his leg?

# 89 A:

In his leg. He didn't like walking. I think he didn't like walking. He was older.

# 90 Q:

Pretty obedient dog?

# 91 A:

Yes.

# 92 Q:

How many times--Withdrawn. You see the dog around while you were living there?

# 93 A:

Yes.

# 94 Q:

Play with the dog at all?

# 95 A:

Yes. I did.

# 96 Q:

How many times during the entire time you were living at Rockingham did you see the dog dart outside the gates when the gates opened?

# 97 PHILLIP BAKER:

Object to the term "dart. "

# 98

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 99 Q:

You may answer. Let me clarify. How many times did you see the dog Chachi run outside the gates when the gates opened?

# 100 A:

I didn't see Chachi run out of the gate. Kate, the dog, sometimes -- okay. I'm sorry.

# 101 Q:

Talking about Chachi.

# 102 A:

Chachi. no, I never saw Chachi run out of the gate.

# 103 Q:

Never. Is that right?

# 104 A:

Yes. I never saw Chachi run out of the gate

# 105 Q:

When the gates opened, what would Chachi do if he were in the driveway?

# 106 A:

Chachi usually was laying down.

# 107 Q:

Okay. Now, Chachi was present on the premises on June 12, 1994. Is that right?

# 108 A:

Yes.

# 109 Q:

Now, you just mentioned in your answer another dog named Kato. That dog was not present on June 12. Is that right?

# 110 A:

Was not present.

# 111 Q:

And no other dog was present on June 12, 1994. Is that right?

# 112 A:

Correct.

# 113 Q:

Now, you had a car. I take it. in June of 1994?

# 114 A:

I did.

# 115 Q:

What kind of car was that?

# 116 A:

It was a black 300 ZX.

# 117 Q:

Where did you park that car?

# 118 A:

I usually parked on Ashford, the street Ashford.

# 119 Q:

Did you park inside the property at all?

# 120 A:

# 121 Q:

Mr. Simpson parked his Bronco on Ashford. Is that right?

# 122 A:

Normally it would be on Ashford.

# 123 Q:

Right before the mailbox?

# 124 A:

In the front. You could be on that side closest to the gate.

# 125 Q:

And you would park on the other side of the driveway?

# 126 A:

I'd park--if the Bronco was there. I'd park in his spot -- you know. either in front of it, but that -- in front of it or whatever spot was actually open on Ashford.

# 127 Q:

Okay. I am going to show you a document that I believe has previously been marked as a plaintiffs' exhibit, which depicts the Rockingham property. Why don't you rake a look at that first. It's been previously marked as Exhibit 27 to this deposition. Pointing to Exhibit 27, does this appear to be a sketch of the Rockingham property?

# 128 A:

Yes.

# 129 Q:

And you see Ashford Street right here (Indicating)--

# 130 A:

Uh-huh

# 131 Q:

--where I am pointing? And then there is the gate. Correct?

# 132 A:

Correct.

# 133 Q:

And then the rest of the street up above the gate. Right?

# 134 A:

Yes.

# 135 Q:

And .Mr. Simpson would normally park here (Indicating) where the mailbox is right before the Ashford gate. Right?

# 136 A:

Well, he parked there, but the car could be also here (Indicating). It could be on Ashford--

# 137 Q:

I am not asking where it could be. Normally.

# 138 A:

Normally right there (Indicating).

# 139 Q:

Where it would be parked normally is right where I am pointing, and I am going to have--I am going to put--

Right before the driveway starts on Ashford. Correct?

# 140 A:

Correct.

# 141 Q:

There is a mailbox there. Right?

# 142 A:

There was a mailbox.

# 143 Q:

And you would park on the other side of that driveway or across the street. Right?

# 144 A:

Yes, I would.

# 145 Q:

Okay. We will probably refer to this. I will just leave this out. Let me ask you a question: If--You see the entranceway to the property? And again I am referring to Exhibit 27. Do you see the entrance there?

# 146 A:

Yes. I do.

# 147 Q:

That's the front door. Right?

# 148 A:

Yes.

# 149 Q:

There are some benches out there and there are some coach lights. Is that right?

# 150 A:

Yes.

# 151 Q:

If those coach lights are on they can be seen from the Ashford gate entrance. Correct?

# 152 A:

Yes.

# 153 Q:

Even if you're standing outside the gate. Right?

# 154 A:

Yes.

# 155 Q:

That's a wrought iron gate you can see right through. Right?

# 156 A:

Correct.

# 157 Q:

And if those lights are on, you can see from Ashford.

# 158 PHILLIP BAKER:

I will object as leading.

# 159

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 160 Q:

You can see from Ashford if those lights are on. Right?

# 161 A:

Correct.

# 162 Q:

You spent some time on June 11 with Mr. Simpson. I am referring to 1994, of course.

# 163 A:

Yes.

# 164 Q:

What did you do that morning when you got up on June 11?

# 165 A:

June 11th was Saturday?

# 166 Q:

Yeah.

# 167 A:

I probably went running. I usually went running, and I probably after a run came home, and then I believe O.J. called me in, "Kato," and I heard him, and I went into the living room/den area where the TVs are.

# 168 Q:

Now, what time was that?

# 169 A:

I'm thinking it was--that's about 3:00 o'clock, 3:30.

# 170 Q:

So we have a Little clarity here, referring to Exhibit 27, when you would enter the property, you would typically enter the Ashford Street gate?

# 171 A:

Yes, I would.

# 172 Q:

Then you would walk down the driveway to this path. Correct?

# 173 A:

Yes.

# 174 Q:

And then you would follow that path around to the side of the house and into the back area, and then you would go down this set of steps into your room?

# 175 A:

Correct.

# 176 Q:

Now, you did that on this occasion when you returned from basketball. Right?

# 177 PHILLIP BAKER:

On which day?

# 178 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

June 11.

# 179 Q:

Or running, I should say.

# 180 A:

Running on June--

# 181 Q:

Running. Was it running, you said?

# 182 A:

Well, are you talking about the Saturday?

# 183 Q:

Yeah, I am only talking about Saturday now.

# 184 A:

Saturday it was running.

# 185 Q:

And you came back from running, and you went on this path to go to your room. Did you get into your room.?

# 186 A:

I don't think so. I think it was right about here (Indicating) where he called, and there is a door here (Indicating), that I said "Hey" and I walked in that way (Indicating).

# 187 Q:

You are referring to an area just opposite the pool--

# 188 A:

Correct.

# 189 Q:

--right, on the east side of the house?

# 190 A:

Correct.

# 191 Q:

And Mr. Simpson is sitting inside?

# 192 A:

Yes.

# 193 Q:

Where?

# 194 A:

On the couch in the den with the TV.

# 195 Q:

And he yells out "Kato"?

# 196 A:

Yes.

# 197 Q:

And you can hear him?

# 198 A:

Yeah.

# 199 Q:

And what do you then do?

# 200 A:

"Hey," so I thought that was like come on in, so I went to the door--

# 201 Q:

And then you came in?

# 202 A:

Came in.

# 203 Q:

Let me ask you a couple of questions about your rules for conducting yourself on that property. Did you without invitation enter the Rockingham residence?

# 204 A:

No.

# 205 Q:

You never did. Correct?

# 206 A:

Correct.

# 207 Q:

Did you without invitation go and eat Mr. Simpson's food?

# 208 A:

Unless it was given to me, I wouldn't eat it.

# 209 Q:

Right. Without invitation.

# 210 A:

Without invitation.

# 211 Q:

Would you open the doors to his house?

# 212 A:

No.

# 213 Q:

Would you walk inside without invitation if you saw Mr. Simpson sitting in there?

# 214 A:

No.

# 215 Q:

Would you go inside to use his kitchen?

# 216 A:

# 217 Q:

Or his bathrooms?

# 218 A:

No.

# 219 Q:

Or his pool table?

# 220 A:

No.

# 221 Q:

His bar?

# 222 A:

No.

# 223 Q:

Any of his possessions?

# 224 A:

No, I would not.

# 225 Q:

Had you ever even used his Jacuzzi as of June 11th?

# 226 A:

I had swam in the pool--

# 227 Q:

No. Jacuzzi.

# 228 A:

But it's connected.

# 229 PHILLIP BAKER:

You are cutting him off.

# 230 KATO KAELIN:

It's connected, so I actually swam into it, but I never put it on.

# 231

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 232 Q:

By the way, just so you understand why I interjected, just to make the deposition go in a more orderly fashion, I just want you to focus on answering my questions specifically as you can, but if you need to elaborate, please feel free to do so, but I thought it might speed things up --

# 233 A:

Okay.

# 234 Q:

--if you stick with the questions at hand.

# 235 PHILLIP BAKER:

Well, let him answer the question.

# 236 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

That's exactly what I just said.

# 237 PHILLIP BAKER:

Let him answer the question.

# 238

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 239 Q:

Getting back to where I was, before June 12 had you ever used the jacuzzi?

# 240 A:

No.

# 241 Q:

And would you have not done so without asking him for permission, "him" being Mr. Simpson?

# 242 A:

No.

# 243 Q:

Did you ever use his cars?

# 244 A:

No.

# 245 Q:

Did you have keys to his cars?

# 246 A:

No.

# 247 Q:

Did you have keys to any of his locks in the property?

# 248 A:

Nothing, no .

# 249 Q:

For you to enter the house, you would have to be invited.

# 250 A:

Yes.

# 251 Q:

And this time on June 11 you were invited.

# 252 A:

Yes. I was.

# 253 Q:

Okay. And you came inside, and what did you do?

# 254 A:

I said, "Hey, hi, O.J., how you doing?" And so I sat down on the--by the TV set and we started talking.

# 255 Q:

About what?

# 256 A:

There's TV on, and he was mentioning things that were on the TV and people that he knew from other TV shows, and he was mentioning that he's going to an event, to some dinner event--

# 257 Q:

That evening?

# 258 A:

An Israeli dinner or something of some sort that evening, on the Saturday. And also there was--one of the shows that had come on was THE WORLD ACCORDING TO GARP, and when that was on--it's a Robin Williams movie--he was watching it, and there was a part that came on where Robin Williams' character is coming home, and he does a thing where he'd go into the driveway and turn off the lights and would coast in with the kids, and he'd get it right before the garage. And the part came up, though, the wife was in the car, in the other car that was in the driveway that shouldn't have been there, and going down on a guy in the film.

# 259 Q:

Meaning giving the guy oral sex?

# 260 A:

Oral sex.

# 261 Q:

Okay. Continue.

# 262 A:

So that part was coming up. It was on U.S.A. network, so there's commercials, and it was the edited-for-TV version, and O.J. had said. "Watch this part here," and the part had come up, and that segued into--

# 263 Q:

What was the part that O.J. said watch?

# 264 A:

The part was going to come up when he coasts into the car, and the car hits the other car. Williams' car, Robin Williams' car hits the car in front--

# 265 Q:

Right.

# 266 A:

--and the woman doing oral sex bites off the guy's penis.

# 267 Q:

And that's--

# 268 A:

And that's the segue that when--

# 269 Q:

I am sorry. Continue.

# 270 A:

That was the segue that went into an event that happened at the Gretna Green house.

# 271 Q:

In other words. Mr. Simpson says, "Hey. watch this part," and then you watch it, and then you see the part where the man's penis gets bitten by the woman, and he then starts talking about a Gretna Green incident.

# 272 A:

Correct.

# 273 Q:

And what incident did he start to talk about?

# 274 PHILLIP BAKER:

Leading.

# 275

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 276 Q:

You can answer. What did he tell you then?

# 277 A:

Oh, it was an incident that Nicole was performing that act on someone else in the house, in the Gretna Green house, and O.J. had saw it outside.

# 278 Q:

That's what he told you?

# 279 A:

Yes.

# 280 Q:

Is that the first time O.J. Simpson had told you that he had seen Nicole perform oral sex on another man from outside the house?

# 281 A:

Yes.

# 282 Q:

Did he identify the other man?

# 283 A:

At the time I think he just said [Name Deleted].

# 284 Q:

And did you know who he was referring to?

# 285 A:

I don't think I did. I think it was--didn't know [Name Deleted].

# 286 Q:

You did not know at that time [Name Deleted]. Is that what you're saying?

# 287 A:

Yeah.

# 288 Q:

But you did have a sense who he was referring to?

# 289 A:

Yes.

# 290 Q:

And how did you have that sense?

# 291 A:

Because I Lived at Gretna Green, and that guy [Deleted] had come by a few times.

# 292 Q:

While you lived there?

# 293 A:

Yes.

# 294 Q:

And you had seen him?

# 295 A:

Yes.

# 296 Q:

Had you ever spoken to him?

# 297 A:

"Hi. How you doing?"

# 298 Q:

Had you ever seen Nicole perform oral sex on him?

# 299 A:

No.

# 300 Q:

Had you ever seen Nicole engaged in sex with [Name Deleted]?

# 301 A:

No.

# 302 Q:

Or with any other man?

# 303 A:

No.

# 304 Q:

Did you ever stand outside the window and look inside and see Nicole sharing intimate moments?

# 305 PHILLIP BAKER:

Objection.

# 306

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 307 Q:

Did you ever see that?

# 308 A:

No.

# 309 Q:

What did Mr. Simpson say--Withdrawn. What did you say to Mr. Simpson after he told you what he had seen at Gretna Green from outside the window?

# 310 A:

I--wow. I didn't--I never really had any comment. It was kind of Like "Oh"--

# 311 Q:

A little uneasy?

# 312 A:

Yeah. I don't want to hear it. I mean, it was (sound).

# 313 Q:

You were a little taken aback by it?

# 314 A:

Yeah, I was. I guess I was--pictured a girlfriend or my wife would have done that, I wouldn't want to see that.

# 315 Q:

Did you say anything to him about it?

# 316 A:

No.

# 317 Q:

What did he then say to you?

# 318 PHILLIP BAKER:

Hearsay.

# 319

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 320 Q:

You may answer. Everything Mr. Simpson said is an admission, which is not hearsay. But continue.

# 321 PHILLIP BAKER:

It is hearsay. The last time I checked, you don't have a black robe on, Dan.

# 322 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

It'll be a long time before I wear a black robe, Mr. Baker.

# 323 Q:

Go ahead.

# 324 A:

What was it?

# 325 Q:

I am sorry. You did a good job of interrupting my train of thought. What did Mr. Simpson say to you after you reacted in that kind of uneasy manner that you described?

# 326 PHILLIP BAKER:

Same.

# 327 KATO KAELIN:

I don't remember exactly. I think that it was--I think that was the comment that was made about it, and it was--I don't think I brought up anything else with that. I was coming up with --I might have switched to what was going to go on, what time he had to go to the dinner.

# 328

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 329 Q:

You knew he was going out with someone that night?

# 330 A:

Yes.

# 331 Q:

With whom?

# 332 A:

Paula Barbieri.

# 333 Q:

Did you and he talk about Paula Barbieri on that occasion?

# 334 A:

That he was going to go to that dinner with Paula, and I don't know if he was looking forward to going to the dinner or not. He said he was tired, but he was gonna go to this--that dinner, whatever the cause was.

# 335 Q:

For--fancy dinner?

# 336 A:

Yeah, black tie dinner.

# 337 Q:

Now, did he say anything to you about his relationship with Paula Barbieri, on that Saturday?

# 338 A:

I don't know if it was on that Saturday or not. It was a comment about the relationship. Could have been on Sunday, though.

# 339 Q:

You mean on June 12?

# 340 A:

Yes.

# 341 Q:

What was the--what did he say about Paula Barbieri on Saturday or Sunday?

# 342 A:

It was not sure if Paula is exactly the one, you know. She wanted kids, and O.J. had said that he already had kids and he was--you know, he doesn't want more kids. So is it was kind of like Paula's probably not the one.

# 343 Q:

Did he say anything about his sexual appetite for Paula?

# 344 PHILLIP BAKER:

Leading.

# 345

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 346 Q:

Did he say anything about that subject?

# 347 A:

[Deleted]

# 348 Q:

But not the one to marry?

# 349 A:

Not the one to marry.

# 350 Q:

And you think this conversation occurred what day, now?

# 351 A:

Saturday. the--

# 352 Q:

The one about Paula

# 353 A:

In bed, was Saturday.

# 354 Q:

You sure it wasn't Sunday?

# 355 A:

I'm pretty sure, yeah, it was Saturday. The other one I believe was Sunday, about not being the one. Paula not being the one I thought was on Sunday.

# 356 Q:

I see. So you had two conversations. Right?

# 357 A:

Yes.

# 358 Q:

[Deleted].

# 359 A:

Yes.

# 360 Q:

And one on Sunday about Paula not being the one.

# 361 A:

Correct.

# 362 Q:

Okay. And the one on Sunday was also about Paula wanting kids and Mr. Simpson not wanting to have more kids.

# 363 A:

Correct.

# 364 Q:

Did he say anything to you on the Saturday conversation about Nicole?

# 365 A:

I know there was a comment made about the taxes, and I can't recollect Saturday or Sunday. It was a thing with taxes that Nicole was using the address of the--the Rockingham address and that O.J. didn't want her to use it. He was going to see that she couldn't use that anymore.

# 366 Q:

O.J. was going to take action to prevent Nicole from--

# 367 A:

From using that address for getting mail. I think it was because of a break in the school price or with the IRS, tax reasons. I'm not positive on how it worked, but it had something to do with IRS and moneys.

# 368 Q:

And O.J. was upset at Nicole?

# 369 A:

Yes.

# 370 Q:

And do you think this conversation occurred on a Saturday or a Sunday, June 11 or June 12?

# 371 A:

I thought part of it was on Saturday and some of it on Sunday.

# 372 Q:

Why don't you relate again the part that occurred on Saturday, if you can, and then we will talk about Sunday.

# 373 A:

Okay. I thought that on--part of it was just--there's a phone that constantly rings at the house, so it could have been said about, "Nicole's not going to be using this address to get her mail, and I'm gonna see that she can't use that address." I think it was on both Saturday and Sunday, brought up again on Sunday.

# 374 Q:

And in that vein, did he also mention anything about the IRS?

# 375 A:

I believe so.

# 376 Q:

What did he say in that regard

# 377 PHILLIP BAKER:

Hearsay.

# 378 KATO KAELIN:

That --the exact words, I don't know. It's like, "I'll see that there will be some kind of trouble with the IRS. She'll get in trouble with the IRS."

# 379

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 380 Q:

Did he tell you why he was upset at Nicole?

# 381 PHILLIP BAKER:

Object as leading.

# 382

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 383 Q:

You said he was upset at Nicole.

# 384 A:

Yeah.

# 385 Q:

And he expressed that to you. Right?

# 386 A:

Well, it was a thing--they were in fights off and on--

# 387 Q:

I-

# 388 PHILLIP BAKER:

Let him answer the question.

# 389

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 390 Q:

I just want you to stay with me now.

# 391 PHILLIP BAKER:

You are cutting him off. When you ask him a question, he has the opportunity to respond.

# 392 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

But he is not answering the question.

# 393 PHILLIP BAKER:

So you are going to cut him off every time?

# 394 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

I am going to move to strike, and I want to reframe the question. I withdraw--

# 395 PHILLIP BAKER:

Mr. Kaelin has the opportunity to respond to your questions the way--

# 396 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

I withdraw the question.

# 397 PHILLIP BAKER:

You can t withdraw it in the middle of his answer if you don't like the answer.

BY MR. PETROCELLI: Are you finished?

# 398 PHILLIP BAKER:

Let him answer.

# 399

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 400 Q:

I am going to ask you another question. I want you to stay with me now. We are talking about the conversations on Saturday or Sunday, June 11 or June 12, and you had told me in these conversations Mr. Simpson expressed the feeling to you that he was upset at Nicole. Correct?

# 401 A:

Correct.

# 402 Q:

And I want--I am now asking you whether he said anything to you on Saturday or Sunday as to why he was upset at Nicole. Answer as fully as you want.

# 403 A:

I'm trying in my--I believe that it was something with jewelry, and I believe Nicole got back some sort of -- gave back some kind of jewelry to O.J.

Sometimes conversations--could I go on with this? Sometimes conversations would take place with other people in the house that I could hear maybe something in the background. I would try to not listen in, and I would catch certain things. So I'd try not to listen in on--

# 404 Q:

Why?

# 405 PHILLIP BAKER:

You cut him off again.

# 406 KATO KAELIN:

Because I didn't think it would be right for me.

# 407

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 408 Q:

Your sense of what's right and wrong?

# 409 A:

Yes.

# 410 Q:

And you don't want to listen to what people are talking about when you are in the same room?

# 411 A:

Right. It would be like--call it an eavesdropper or something, so I didn't want to, but certain words I would hear, and conversations.

# 412 Q:

Please continue.

# 413 A:

Well, I believe it was on Saturday that--I don't know exact time, but I think Ron Fishman came over, who was a neighbor, and there was a conversation that did take place in the kitchen nook area--

# 414 Q:

Of the residence?

# 415 A:

Of the residence. I think he just popped over. And part of the conversation was with Ron and O.J. where it was O.J. had raised his hands and said, "These women, I just don t understand them."

And I think Ron might have been going through some trouble at that time, and so there was a conversation that I knew, when I had saw who was in the kitchen, that I shouldn't be there.

# 416 Q:

And O.J. was talking in a loud, angry voice?

# 417 PHILLIP BAKER:

Leading.

# 418

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 419 Q:

Describe his voice for us.

# 420 A:

"These women. I just don't understand them." That was the comment that I heard.

KEY QUOTE

# 421 Q:

Was he laughing?

# 422 A:

# 423 Q:

Was he upset?

# 424 A:

Yes.

# 425 Q:

And you --were you in the kitchen with Ron and O.J.?

# 426 A:

I was--walked into the kitchen.

# 427 Q:

Yeah.

# 428 A:

They were in the breakfast area. So it would be where I am right now and maybe two chairs past you, past Mr. Brewer.

# 429 Q:

Okay. And when you heard O.J. say, you know, "These women, what's wrong with them," what did you then do?

# 430 A:

Well, I kind of got the feeling from the look that--from both of them that I shouldn't be -- it was a private conversation.

# 431 Q:

Did you then leave?

# 432 A:

Yes.

# 433 Q:

Was it your sense that Mr. Simpson was referring to Nicole?

# 434 A:

Yes.

# 435 Q:

And on what do you base that?

# 436 A:

Just a feeling I had. I imagined it had to be Nicole.

# 437 Q:

Tell me about the bracelet. You said he was upset because Nicole had returned some jewelry or something. Why don't you describe that to me.

# 438 A:

I don't know the exact--what kind of bracelet it was. I think it was some kind of tennis bracelet, and I believe Nicole gave it back to O.J., and I think O.J. gave it to Paula.

# 439 Q:

How do you know all that?

# 440 A:

Part of it I think from Cora Fishman, and that's it. And stuff that like I had heard.

# 441 Q:

Did you hear any of that from O.J. Simpson?

# 442 A:

I think I heard some of that yes.

# 443 Q:

Tell me what O.J. Simpson told you.

# 444 A:

I think O.J. said, "Nicole gave me back this bracelet, and I'm going to give it to Paula."

# 445 (Fred Goldman enters the deposition.)

# 446

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 447 Q:

Did he say this on that Saturday.

# 448 A:

I believe so.

# 449 Q:

This is your best recollection--

# 450 A:

Right.

# 451 Q:

--of when you believe you also saw Ron Fishman?

# 452 A:

My best recollection, yes.

# 453 Q:

Okay. Now, did you have any knowledge as of June 11, 1994, of whether O.J. and Nicole were split apart or were together?

# 454 A:

On June 11th?

# 455 Q:

Yeah.

# 456 A:

They were apart.

# 457 Q:

How did you know that?

# 458 A:

I had heard conversations before that they were over with, from a few weeks before. "Oh, it's over, " that the relationship was over.

# 459 Q:

Who told you, "Yes, it's over. The relationship, it's over"?

# 460 A:

O.J. had said that.

# 461 Q:

To you?

# 462 A:

Yes.

# 463 Q:

When is your best recollection as to when O.J. Simpson said that to you?

# 464 A:

I believe it was towards the end of May.

# 465 Q:

Was there any discussion on Saturday with O.J. Simpson about his children?

# 466 A:

I believe Saturday and Sunday that---

# 467 Q:

Why don't you relate the decision that occurred on Saturday and Sunday about Mr. Simpson's children.

# 468 A:

That O.J. liked, you know, with the kids, hearing voices of the kids around. He just liked hearing the voices of the kids. He didn't have to be seeing them, but if he heard the voices, he liked that. He liked the idea of having a family there and white picket fence and to have the voice of the kids, Sydney and Justin, to hear them.

# 469 Q:

What was the context in which that discussion came up?

# 470 A:

That there was no one there, and he'd like to have someone there because there was--it was kinda empty there.

# 471 Q:

Did O.J. Simpson to you appear lonely on June 11 and June 12, 1994?

# 472 PHILLIP BAKER:

Object as vague.

# 473 KATO KAELIN:

Somewhat.

# 474

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 475 Q:

Yes?

# 476 A:

Yes, somewhat.

# 477 Q:

He appeared lonely to you?

# 478 A:

Yes. I figured--

# 479 Q:

He was lamenting about not having his children around?

# 480 PHILLIP BAKER:

Objection. You cut him off. Leading.

# 481

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 482 Q:

Was he lamenting about not having his children around?

# 483 A:

Somewhat, yes

# 484 Q:

And you base that on the things he said to you

# 485 A:

Well, that and also inviting me in. I thought that was part of it, too

# 486 Q:

And how was that part of it?

# 487 A:

Maybe that I was like a last resort or something.

# 488 Q:

Wasn't very common for you to be invited in. Right?

# 489 A:

No. It was nice to be in, to say--you know, talk to.

# 490 Q:

No. My question was--

# 491 A:

But--

# 492 Q:

--it wasn't very common for you to be invited in by him. Right?

# 493 PHILLIP BAKER:

You're cutting him off again.

# 494 KATO KAELIN:

It wasn't common to be invited in. Sometimes, yes--

# 495

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 496 Q:

And you were invited in--

# 497 PHILLIP BAKER:

Wait. wait. Will you read back his answer so he can continue answering the question?

# 498

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 499 Q:

Were you finished with your answer?

# 500 A:

There was a thing that it wasn't common, but sometimes when I was called in, it was kinda cool to be in, but--

# 501 Q:

You felt kind of cool?

# 502 PHILLIP BAKER:

You cut him off again.

# 503 KATO KAELIN:

Yeah, I felt kinda cool that I was invited in, yes.

# 504 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

For the record, Mr. Kaelin has kind of a halting speech pattern, and he pauses and I think you're finished, and then you go on, and I apologize if I am cutting you off, but in my defense that's one of the contributing factors.

# 505 KATO KAELIN:

That's true. I do.

# 506

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 507 Q:

Okay. On the weekend of June 11 and June 12, you were invited in at least two times. Is that right?

# 508 A:

Correct.

# 509 Q:

That was pretty unusual. Right?

# 510 A:

Yes.

# 511 Q:

What did you say to O.J. Simpson when he was lamenting about his children?

# 512 PHILLIP BAKER:

Objection. Vague as to "lamenting."

# 513 KATO KAELIN:

Part of it was, I said. "Oh, I don't know why you guys try to get back together sometimes. You want to get back together and you don't. You guys are always--you should be apart maybe for like six months and see where it goes from there, but you shouldn't be together."

# 514

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 515 Q:

And what did Mr. Simpson then say to you?

# 516 A:

That it was over.

# 517 Q:

The discussion that you just related, did it occur on both Saturday and Sunday, to the best of your recollection?

# 518 A:

Yes.

# 519 Q:

Had O.J. Simpson ever asked you whether Nicole had sex with any men?

# 520 PHILLIP BAKER:

Objection. Hearsay.

# 521 KATO KAELIN:

He asked me about one buddy of mine.

# 522

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 523 Q:

What did O.J. Simpson ask you?

# 524 A:

He said if I had a buddy named Grant. I said yes. And there was a relationship when they were divorced, in Aspen when I first met Nicole, and Grant Cramer had a relationship with Nicole, and that was in '92 when I met, and that conversation with O.J. happened in '94.

# 525 Q:

When in '94?

# 526 A:

I think around May.

# 527 Q:

And what did O.J. Simpson say to you in 1994 on this subject?

# 528 A:

That--he asked if I had a friend by that name and I said "Yeah," and did they have a relationship, and I believe I said, "Yeah. I think they did back in Aspen."

# 529 Q:

Did you ask him why he was asking you?

# 530 A:

No.

# 531 Q:

Why did you tell him?

# 532 A:

Because I'm telling him the truth.

# 533 Q:

You didn't feel you were breaking any confidences?

# 534 A:

I don't know if I said they slept together. I said there was a relationship.

# 535 Q:

Do you know why he asked you?

# 536 A:

No.

# 537 Q:

What did you do on Saturday after you saw Ron Fishman and left the house? Did you have any further interaction with Mr. Simpson on that day?

# 538 A:

Well, I think still in the living room area.

# 539 Q:

Yeah.

# 540 A:

I have a friend; her name is [Name Deleted], and at certain times I would think of people that I think O.J. might get along with. Not that I need to set him up on dates or anything, but then I had a friend Tracy who was doing a movie, and I said, "This is a really cute girl. You should meet her," because I figured they weren't together, with Nicole anymore, and it was fine for him to date, and he already mentioned about Paula, how she wasn't the one, so I figured here's a girl that might go out. So it was my friend. It was a phone call that was made. I believe I made it first in my room but gave O.J.'s number, and she returned the call to O.J. or--at one point, and then we called there, to North Carolina, that Saturday to her.

# 541 Q:

And [Name Deleted] was a friend of yours?

# 542 A:

Yes.

# 543 Q:

And O.J. had never met her before?

# 544 A:

No.

# 545 Q:

Did you ask--did O.J. ask you what she looked like?

# 546 A:

Yes.

# 547 Q:

What did you say?

# 548 A:

I said. "She's in Playboy right now. I can get an issue." So he said. "Get an issue." I went down and got an issue, and he looked at the pictures and--

# 549 Q:

Where did you get the issue'

# 550 A:

There's a market on San Vicente. I don't know what it's called. It's an outdoor market where they sell magazines. I believe that's where I got it.

# 551 Q:

And then you came back to the house?

# 552 A:

Yes.

# 553 Q:

And when you got to the property, how did you get in the house?

# 554 A:

By--I think I came in through the nook area.

# 555 Q:

Did you know?

# 556 A:

I think I did.

# 557 Q:

And he let you in?

# 558 A:

I don't know if I came through the front I and went back around again and said "Hey." One of the two. I'm not positive.

# 559 Q:

Was there a housekeeper there that weekend on the 11th and the 12th of June?

# 560 A:

No.

# 561 Q:

Who was his housekeeper at that time?

# 562 A:

Gigi.

# 563 Q:

Now, when you got there, did you show Mr. Simpson the Playboy issue?

# 564 A:

Yes.

# 565 Q:

Did you point out Tracy Adell?

# 566 A:

Yes.

# 567 Q:

And what did Mr. Simpson say?

# 568 PHILLIP BAKER:

Hearsay.

# 569 KATO KAELIN:

It was--she's a great looking girl, but it wasn't his type. He liked the blondes.

# 570

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 571 Q:

That's what he said?

# 572 A:

Yes. But she was good-looking.

# 573 Q:

That's what he said?

# 574 A:

Yeah. It was the centerfold. I mean, "It was a great body," that sort of thing, "but not my look. She's not a blond. I like blondes."

# 575 Q:

What did you then say?

# 576 A:

"I like her," or something. I said, "I think she's beautiful," but...

# 577 Q:

And what did you do with the Playboy issue?

# 578 A:

I think I kept it there.

# 579 Q:

Now, in your presence, at least, did you see Mr. Simpson make telephonic contact with Tracy Adell on that Saturday?

# 580 A:

Yes.

# 581 Q:

Are you sure about that?

# 582 A:

I'm pretty sure we called there. I thought we called there that day to that --I don't know if it was a message machine or not, but I thought there was a call that was made, because there was a call that came in on Sunday, but I thought it was because there was a message left. That's what I recollect.

# 583 Q:

In your presence on Saturday did you witness an extended conversation between Tracy and O.J.?

# 584 A:

No.

# 585 Q:

Were you there on Sunday when that occurred?

# 586 A:

Yes.

# 587 Q:

So you do recall Mr. Simpson talking to Tracy Adell on Sunday on the telephone in your presence, but not on Saturday.

# 588 A:

Yes.

# 589 Q:

Okay. After you--Let me back up for a second. Do you know what led to this split-up, this final split-up between Nicole and O.J.?

# 590 PHILLIP BAKER:

Objection. Speculation.

# 591 KATO KAELIN:

I don't know what the final--think it might have been a few of the things: The bracelet, the IRS. I think it was a bunch of things.

# 592

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 593 Q:

And who told you those things?

# 594 A:

That I heard from O.J. and from Cora also, and I--it was one of the things where it was over, together, back, not back. It was a constant--of the time that I knew both of them, it was a constant--

# 595 Q:

What I am asking you is, on this weekend--

# 596 PHILLIP BAKER:

You cut him off again.

# 597

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 598 Q:

-- of the 11th and 12th, Mr. Kaelin --

# 599 A:

Yes.

# 600 Q:

--did you know what had led to the breakup of O.J. and Nicole? You mentioned the IRS letter. You mentioned something about the bracelet, which O.J. Simpson told you about. Correct?

# 601 A:

Part of it, yes.

# 602 Q:

And now I am asking you whether you knew anything else.

# 603 PHILLIP BAKER:

Leading.

# 604 KATO KAELIN:

Well, I believe part of it also was from the dance recital on Sunday.

# 605

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 606 Q:

Okay. Which you didn't know on Saturday, of course.

# 607 A:

I did not know.

# 608 Q:

Okay. So tell me what you learned on Sunday after the dance recital about the breakup of O.J. and Nicole.

# 609 A:

Well, just that Sunday was--part of the day was when I was talking to O.J. about the recital. He had come back, and I believe I was coming back from basketball and he --I asked how the recital was, how Sydney was, and he said "Oh, it was great," and all that and that Nicole wasn't giving O.J. time with the kids and all that, and she was playing hardball with him with the kids and she can't do that.

# 610 Q:

And what did you say?

# 611 A:

There was also a comment about --I don't know my exact dialogue, but a comment about--that was brought up about what they were wearing.

# 612 Q:

Who made the comment?

# 613 A:

O.J.

# 614 Q:

What did he say?

# 615 A:

It was a comment like, "I don't know what she's gonna do when she's gonna be a grandma, I mean, she can't wear those kind of outfits when she's a grandma." I said, "What kind?" "It was a miniskirt." Then it was a comment about --after that, it was about, "Those girls" --

# 616 PHILLIP BAKER:

Wait. You are stopping him. You just stopped him.

BY MR. PETROCELI: Q: Excuse me. When you say there was a "comment." I need to know who the speaker is.

# 617 A:

O.J. made a comment.

# 618 PHILLIP BAKER:

You can follow up with questions after he finishes his answer.

# 619 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Please, Mr. Baker, I am conducting my examination.

# 620 PHILLIP BAKER:

You are conducting your deposition by interrupting the answer --

# 621 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

The answer is not clear as to who the speaker is. We want a clear record here.

# 622 PHILLIP BAKER:

Then ask him when he finishes his answer.

# 623

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 624 Q:

Please continue. You said there was a comment about "those girls." Now, tell me who made the comment and then continue with what the person said.

# 625 A:

O.J. made a comment about the outfit Nicole was wearing and the person she was with. So it was a comment about Nicole and that person saying, "How can they wear those outfits?" And "What outfits?" "They're wearing"--I said, "What outfits?" "Those miniskirts. What are they gonna do when they're grandmothers? They're gonna have to learn how to dress." It was--exact words, I don't know, but it was a comment about their outfits being miniskirts, kind of a club-wear for a recital. It was the wrong--it wasn't the appropriate thing to wear to a recital.

# 626 Q:

And when he was telling you about Nicole playing hardball with the kids and he was telling you about Nicole wearing these tight miniskirts, what did you say to him?

# 627 A:

I probably went, "Oh, yeah, those outfits." It wasn't--I mean, there was nothing--it wasn't something for me to comment on. It was kind of like me listening and, "Oh, okay."

# 628 Q:

And when he made these comments to you about Nicole playing hardball with him with the kids and wearing tight miniskirts, what was his -- did he appear angry to you?

# 629 A:

Well, not real angry, just--

# 630 Q:

Did he appear upset?

# 631 A:

Well, it was like -- can I do it? It was kind of like (sound) "What are they gonna do when they're wearing these outfits when they're grandmas? I mean, it's a recital. Look what they're wearing."

# 632 Q:

Did he appear frustrated to you?

# 633 A:

That's good. Frustrated.

# 634 Q:

Would you say he was upset?

# 635 PHILLIP BAKER:

Objection. Leading.

# 636 KATO KAELIN:

I think more frustrated, actually. I think it was part of upset, but frustrated.

# 637

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 638 Q:

Did he appear to you to be upset about Nicole not letting him see the kids?

# 639 A:

Yes.

# 640 MR. SIMPSON:

Kids?

# 641 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

We need to have Mr. Simpson not make comments on the record that are audible. That's very important, and it's not fair to the witness.

# 642 PHILLIP BAKER:

Continue with the deposition.

# 643 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Excuse me?

# 644 PHILLIP BAKER:

Continue with the deposition.

# 645 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

I don't want any comments or any histrionics by any one at the table. It's not appropriate.

# 646 KATO KAELIN:

Could I have 30 seconds real quick?

# 647 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Yes.

# 648 PHILLIP BAKER:

Sure.

# 649 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Why don't you just take a short break rather than--

# 650 KATO KAELIN:

It's just a second. If you want to take a break--I don't need to--

# 651 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Okay.

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 10:31.

# 652 (Recess.)

# 653

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 654 Q:

Now, we were talking about a conversation that you had with Mr. Simpson on June 12 after Mr. Simpson came back from the recital, and in this conversation that you just related to us, was there any mention of this issue of the bracelet being returned as well?

# 655 A:

I don't believe on that Sunday, there was not.

# 656 Q:

What about on the IRS situation?

# 657 A:

Yes, it came up with the IRS about --I believe it was during the dress conversation, that he was going to, I don't know, call the IRS, do something with the IRS where she'd get in trouble. What exactly, I don't know, but some kind of trouble.

# 658 Q:

And that's what O.J. Simpson said to you?

# 659 A:

That it was something with the IRS, yes.

# 660 Q:

What you just related to us about the IRS is what O.J. Simpson said to you?

# 661 A:

Yes.

# 662 Q:

Just so you understand why I keep repeating that question at times, when you give your testimony, it's not clear who's doing the speaking, so I am trying to find out who the speaker is. Okay?

# 663 A:

Correct.

# 664 Q:

Thanks.

# 665 A:

Yes.

# 666 Q:

Now, when O.J. Simpson was talking to you about these topics after the recital, you said he was--you got the feeling that he was frustrated and upset insofar as the kids were concerned?

# 667 PHILLIP BAKER:

Objection. Mischaracterizes his testimony.

# 668

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 669 Q:

Did you do anything to relieve yourself of being around him while he was upset?

# 670 A:

Could you say the question again I'm not following.

# 671 Q:

In other words, you were talking to him, and he's upset.

# 672 A:

Yes.

# 673 Q:

And did you do anything to get out of that situation, to leave the room or to stop the topic of conversation, to change the subject, to go someplace else? Did you do anything?

# 674 PHILLIP BAKER:

Leading.

# 675 KATO KAELIN:

I probably picked up the sports page or something, started reading the paper. I believe that Sunday also, that girl called back, [Name Deleted].

# 676

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 677 Q:

This is after the recital now?

# 678 A:

Oh, this is after the recital?

# 679 Q:

Right.

# 680 A:

This was before the recital. After the recital I went to ask him if I could take a jacuzzi, because I had played basketball--I ran and I played basketball, and I said "God, I'm sore," and all that. "Is it okay if I use the jacuzzi?"

# 681 Q:

Was one of your purposes asking to go to the jacuzzi because you didn't want to continue to be in an upsetting conversation with him?

# 682 PHILLIP BAKER:

Leading and mischaracterizes his testimony.

# 683 KATO KAELIN:

I guess somewhat, and that I was sore and was going to use the jacuzzi and just go on.

# 684

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 685 Q:

Let me read something to you. These are from the tapes of our interviews with Eliot.

# 686 PHILLIP BAKER:

Are you going to mark those?

# 687 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

No.

# 688 Q:

"You know, when you're in one of those situations where you can feel this tension going on. I had mentioned jacuzzi because I didn't want to hear, you know, how--the upset."

# 689 PHILLIP BAKER:

What page is that?

# 690 Q:

Do you recall making statements to that effect?

# 691 A:

Yes. It would be where I've heard the arguments before about that, so I wanted to go out, get out of it.

# 692 PHILLIP BAKER:

What page is that?

# 693 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

I don't have a page. Just a statement that appeared on the tape.

# 694 Q:

In any event, does that refresh your recollection?

# 695 A:

Yes. Yes, and I took off then.

# 696 Q:

So you felt some tension?

# 697 A:

Yes.

# 698 Q:

And one of the reasons you wanted to go do a jacuzzi was to get rid of that tense situation?

# 699 Q:

Yes. You know the situation sometimes when someone tells you something and you've heard it before, and you just want to, "Okay," and then you want to get out of it. So part of it was to release tension, to go in to take a jacuzzi.

# 700 Q:

And that's what you did.

# 701 A:

Yes, I did.

# 702 Q:

Okay. And you asked for permission. Correct?

# 703 A:

I did, yes. I also asked how to use the jets because I didn't know how to use the jacuzzi itself.

# 704 Q:

You asked Mr. Simpson?

# 705 A:

Yes. I said. "How do you actually make the jets come out?" So I asked him. and he said there were some buttons, some buttons on the side, because I never had actually taken a jacuzzi.

# 706 Q:

Let's go back to June 11. We are going to come back to this conversation again. When you were in the house with Mr. Simpson on June 11, you've described the incident involving getting the Playboy magazine for [Name Deleted]. Is that the last thing you can recall happening after he looked at the magazine: You had the discussion that you related and called Adell? Anything else that you can recall?

# 707 A:

I knew it was getting late at that time and he had to get ready for the reception. I think I took off. I got the magazine, I believe a call was made, and I think someone else had called. It's one of the things where the phone rings all the time, and it's a lot--so your mind goes--you forget your last thought. You go to the phone call. I believe a friend of his called, and I might have done something funny with the friend on the phone. I may have been talking to him and disguising my voice in a manner where I do this joking voice, like a guy who worked in the hair salon, very effeminate and make the guy laugh, and the guy thinks it's really someone calling up. I think I might have done that.

# 708 Q:

And then what?

# 709 A:

I think I took off. I think I was out of the--I was done. I took off, and he went out to the event, and that was it.

# 710 Q:

You didn't see him the rest of that evening?

# 711 A:

No, I don't believe so. I didn't see Paula come over or anything. I think that was it, and they were off. He was off to the event.

# 712 Q:

By the way, when you were relating Mr. Simpson's conversation to you about the events of the recital and he was telling you about the black miniskirts--do you recall that?

# 713 A:

Yes.

# 714 Q:

Did you see Nicole dressed that evening at the recital?

# 715 A:

No.

# 716 Q:

Did you see her at all that day?

# 717 A:

No.

# 718 Q:

So you never saw any dress that she wore on the evening of June 12. Right?

# 719 A:

Correct.

# 720 Q:

Or any clothing. Correct?

# 721 A:

Correct.

# 722 Q:

So the only knowledge that you have about what she wore that evening came from whom?

# 723 A:

O.J.

# 724 Q:

Because O.J. Simpson told you.

# 725 A:

Yes.

# 726 Q:

When O.J. Simpson would arrive at his house at night and you were in your guesthouse, would you always hear him enter?

# 727 A:

No.

# 728 Q:

So if he came back that evening with Paula Barbieri, the evening of Saturday, would you know?

# 729 A:

No.

# 730 Q:

Did O.J. Simpson come to your room that day on the 11th?

# 731 A:

No.

# 732 Q:

Did he ask you for change?

# 733 A:

On the 11th?

# 734 Q:

Yes.

# 735 A:

Was it Saturday?

# 736 Q:

Yes.

# 737 A:

No, he didn't.

# 738 Q:

Did he ask you to set the alarm?

# 739 A:

No.

# 740 Q:

Did he ask you out to dinner?

# 741 A:

No.

# 742 Q:

Did he ask you to get a burger?

# 743 A:

No.

# 744 Q:

Did he ask you to take a ride with him?

# 745 A:

No.

# 746 Q:

Did he tell you he was going to dinner?

# 747 A:

No.

# 748 Q:

Now, the next day on the 12th.. .

# 749 MICHAEL PLOTKIN:

Can you do me favor?

# 750 PHILLIP BAKER:

Sure.

# 751 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Speak up, Mr. Plotkin.

# 752 MICHAEL PLOTKIN:

Comments during the course of this are going to be difficult because they are going to interrupt everybody's train of thought.

# 753 PHILLIP BAKER:

Comments?

# 754 MICHAEL PLOTKIN:

Comments. Your initial reaction is to react to some of the questions and answers, and I understand that, but audible comments are going to be...

# 755 PHILLIP BAKER:

Now is the time you decide to speak, Mr. Plotkin?

# 756 MICHAEL PLOTKIN:

Yes, now is the time I decide to speak.

# 757 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Both visible and audible reactions to testimony have to be avoided.

# 758 MICHAEL PLOTKIN:

And by the way to the extent you want to treat this as a battleground, I'm not on either side of this battle, but I'll be happy to play by any rules you want.

# 759 PHILLIP BAKER:

I understand that, Mr. Plotkin, but I think you should defend your client's interests and allow him to answer questions.

# 760 MICHAEL PLOTKIN:

Let me address that for a minute. That's fair enough. The fact of the matter is that I've lived with the pattern of speech for a year, so perhaps I've grown more accustomed to it than you have. I have a sense of when he starts and stops. Neither you nor Mr. Petrocelli do. He was right about half the time. He was wrong about half the time and you were right. I just have a sense that it's better to let that pattern take its--

# 761 PHILLIP BAKER:

If that's the case then, if you believe he is being interrupted, if you are so knowledgeable about it, then put it on the record so we can get his full answer.

# 762 MICHAEL PLOTKIN:

I thought you were doing a wonderful job yourself.

# 763 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

No. He was only doing a wonderful job half the time.

# 764 PHILLIP BAKER:

If I'm wrong half the time, please help.

# 765 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

In any event, let's continue I think your initial comment was that we should avoid facial reactions to the testimony.

# 766 MICHAEL PLOTKIN:

It isn't facial reactions. You can't help people's reactions. But audible reactions.

# 767 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

You are not supposed to react facially in a visible way in a deposition.

# 768 Q:

Okay. Now we're Saturday evening, the 11th. What did you do?

# 769 A:

What did I do that night?

# 770 Q:

Yes.

# 771 A:

I probably went out.

# 772 Q:

Do you remember what you did?

# 773 A:

On Saturday night, the 11th. I don't recollect what I did.

# 774 Q:

Okay.

# 775 A:

I probably went out with buddies.

# 776 Q:

What did you do the next morning, on June 12th?

# 777 A:

Whenever I would get up, I'd probably get up, watch a little TV and start stretching and go on a run, and I would take a pretty long run.

# 778 Q:

You're in good physical shape?

# 779 A:

Pretty good.

# 780 Q:

At the time?

# 781 A:

Well, I'm still in good shape. What are you saying?

# 782 Q:

Were you in good physical shape--

# 783 A:

Yeah, I could run--

# 784 Q:

--on June 12?

# 785 A:

I could run eight miles pretty easy.

# 786 Q:

How many?

# 787 A:

Eight, ten.

# 788 Q:

When you got up that morning, what time was it?

# 789 A:

It was about 11:30 or so, 11:00. In the room. Got up around 10:00, probably just hung out there.

# 790 Q:

When you hung out, you hung out in your room?

# 791 A:

Yes.

# 792 Q:

Did anybody else live on the grounds besides you and Mr. Simpson?

# 793 A:

The housekeeper, Gigi, would stay in the house, and also have a house in Hollywood. Most of the time she'd stay there during the week. And Arnelle.

# 794 Q:

And Arnelle lived where?

# 795 Q:

Arnelle was in the wall-adjoining guesthouse next to mine.

# 796 Q:

Okay. So the first--Did you see Mr. Simpson on the morning of June 12th?

# 797 A:

I believe so. Morning-afternoon. Noonish.

# 798 Q:

Morning before noon?

# 799 A:

I don't think so.

# 800 Q:

You went and did your run.

# 801 A:

Yes.

# 802 Q:

And when you came back, what did you do?

# 803 A:

When I came back from my run, I believe I saw O.J. then, and I talked to him for a while.

# 804 Q:

What time was it?

# 805 A:

It was after noon, I'd say 1:30, 2:00 o'clockish.

# 806 Q:

How did you encounter O.J. Simpson?

# 807 A:

He shouted my name.

# 808 Q:

Where were you when he shouted your name?

# 809 A:

I believe I was coming in from the Ashford gate from my run, pushed the gate open and came in, and he called me in. I think I went to the breakfast nook area, and the breakfast nook area is--I took a seat, and we talked.

# 810 Q:

When you came in through the Ashford gate, Mr. Simpson was inside the residence?

# 811 A:

Yes.

# 812 Q:

In the kitchen nook area?

# 813 A:

Yes.

# 814 Q:

And he could see you through the window?

# 815 A:

Yes.

# 816 Q:

And he called you.

# 817 A:

Yes.

# 818 Q:

And you then went to the door that's right outside that kitchen nook area?

# 819 A:

Yes.

# 820 Q:

And you went inside.

# 821 A:

Yes.

# 822 Q:

And what happened next?

# 823 A:

We had a conversation that day, had a few conversations with O.J. and I don't know time-wise exactly because I also played basketball that day, and I'm trying to tell you in the exact order of everything I did. So I had different conversations in the breakfast area, and one of the conversations, I believe he had said something about the night of that ball, that he got in earlier or he didn't spend the night with Paula. I think that was part of it.

# 824 Q:

You mean the night before?

# 825 A:

Of that--right. So I'm pretty sure I would have said. "Hey, how did that go?" And he said. "It's all right." I think I was expecting maybe to see Paula there. She wasn't there. She didn't spend the night. I don't know if he had spent the night there or not at her place. Another conversation was he had a golf--he golfed that morning, that I think I said, "How did you do in the golf," and all that. I think he said he won, and he played cards. There was a lot about the things about what he had done already in the morning of the golf game and the playing cards.

# 826 Q:

Let me stop you right there.

# 827 A:

Okay.

# 828 Q:

When he was telling you--Withdrawn. This conversation that you're now relating with O.J. Simpson occurred before Mr. Simpson went to the dance recital for his daughter Sidney. Is that right?

# 829 A:

That is right.

# 830 Q:

And when he discussed his having played golf, did he tell you that he was unable to play golf because of any physical condition?

# 831 A:

No.

# 832 Q:

In fact he said he won. Is that what you said?

# 833 A:

I'm pretty sure.

# 834 Q:

Did he say that he was unable to shuffle cards or play cards because of any physical condition?

# 835 A:

No.

# 836 Q:

Did he complain to you about arthritis on that occasion?

# 837 A:

No.

# 838 PHILLIP BAKER:

"On that occasion" meaning that conversation?

# 839 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Yeah, the conversation in the afternoon of June 12 before the dance recital.

# 840 KATO KAELIN:

He did not, no.

# 841

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 842 Q:

Did you see any cuts on his fingers?

# 843 A:

No.

# 844 Q:

See any bleeding?

# 845 A:

No.

# 846 Q:

Did he indicate whether anything unusual had occurred playing golf?

# 847 A:

I don't think so, no.

# 848 Q:

Did he talk --tell you about a dispute he had with a golf partner?

# 849 A:

I don't think he told me that.

# 850 Q:

That he had a fight or an argument?

# 851 PHILLIP BAKER:

Leading.

# 852 KATO KAELIN:

I don't think so.

# 853

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 854 Q:

Did he tell you that?

# 855 A:

I don't know if he told me that or if I heard that. It's--I thought it was like in one of those news stories, that someone said he had an argument. So I can't tie it into myself. So I might have, but I don't want to confuse it where it's one of those news items, where I know that there was an argument with a guy named Craig, but I can't--

# 856 Q:

You can't recall as you sit here now whether Mr. Simpson told you about an argument with Craig or whether you heard about it after the fact?

# 857 A:

Yes. that's correct.

# 858 PHILLIP BAKER:

Asked and answered.

# 859

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 860 Q:

Is that correct?

# 861 A:

That is correct.

# 862 Q:

Now, about Paula, Paula was not there during this conversation. Right?

# 863 A:

Not there, no.

# 864 Q:

And to your knowledge was not in the house. Right?

# 865 A:

Yes, to my knowledge.

# 866 Q:

And what did he tell you about Paula?

# 867 A:

There was a conversation about Paula that he thought that Paula wasn't the one, that she was a bit upset about not going to this recital that was coming up. O.J. said it was kind of like this family thing and he didn't want her to go, and so he was talking about that. She took it hard, and that's what I know of that.

# 868 Q:

When he told you that Paula took it hard because O.J. would not let her go to the dance recital, what, if anything, did you say?

# 869 A:

I think I probably said. "She's probably in love with you and"--that's the impression I got, that Paula was in love with him and I think wanted to have kids with him.

# 870 Q:

And what, if anything, did O.J. Simpson say?

# 871 A:

That he already had his kids and all that; not sure if she was the one for that. You know, he didn't want kids, and he didn't think he was going to marry her.

# 872 Q:

Where were you and Mr. Simpson when you had this discussion?

# 873 A:

In the breakfast nook area. It's not the front door. There's also a door to the side of the front door. It would be here in this picture (Indicating).

# 874 Q:

Can you tell me any other conversation that you had again in that afternoon before the dance recital?

# 875 A:

I think there was talk about the playoff games. There was the Knicks-Houston game. I think something came up about the score of the game or who won the game--

# 876 Q:

What about--I'm sorry.

# 877 A:

That was prompting me I think to play basketball that day for myself.

Q; Do you like to play basketball?

# 878 A:

Very much.

# 879 Q:

Did Mr. Simpson and you discuss Tracy Adell?

# 880 A:

Oh, yes. That I believe that there was a message that she had called back and that--to give her a call. So I think he called her back and that--that day, and there was a--talked for a while. I know that I was on for just like a second, saying "hi" and all that. So when they were on the phone, I didn't want to eavesdrop in, so I started reading the sports page and let them talk on the phone.

# 881 Q:

Did you listen to their conversation?

# 882 A:

I tried not to, so I think it was just about asking each other out or to see each other at some point when she came back. I think it was film talk and what she was working on.

# 883 Q:

Let me--

# 884 A:

And there was something also with that he had--he was saying that, "Trace, I've got pretty much everything. I've got a huge house, and I would want the white picket fence and the family," and he was mentioning that sort of thing of--saying, "I'm a single guy, single successful guy" and all that.

# 885 Q:

Who did he say that to?

# 886 A:

Tracy.

# 887 Q:

In your presence?

# 888 A:

Yes.

# 889 Q:

Let me go back to golf for a minute. Let me read something from your interviews with Eliot.

# 890 PHILLIP BAKER:

Object. Lack of foundation.

# 891

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 892 Q:

"So I had seen O.J. back from the golf game and went into the main house. He was sitting on the--he had a foursome. I know one of the guys was a Craig Baumgarten that he had mentioned they had got into a little verbal fight. I think it was bad shooting or O.J. had a bad shot, or I don't know the exact reason for the fight." Does that refresh your recollection as to whether Mr. Simpson told you about a fight with Craig on the golf course?

# 893 A:

Like I--I don't know if that was from a news item or that he had said that, but something with that sticks out in my mind. What I remember is what I had said, if it's TV or if O.J. said it, but I knew there was some story about that.

# 894 Q:

Did O.J. tell you when he was going to the dance recital?

# 895 A:

Yes

# 896 Q:

What did he say?

# 897 A:

That he was going to see Sydney in some dance recital at some school and that it was, I believe, at 5:30, and then I think took off for basketball.

# 898 Q:

Did he tell you what his plans were later that evening?

# 899 A:

No.

# 900 Q:

Did he tell you that he was leaving town?

# 901 A:

I think it came up that he had to do packing and was taking a red eye flight.

# 902 Q:

He told you in this early afternoon conversation that he had to take a red eye flight?

# 903 A:

Yes.

# 904 Q:

That evening?

# 905 A:

Yes.

# 906 Q:

And he had packing to do?

# 907 A:

He had packing to do. He was talking-- some Hertz thing was coming up.

# 908 Q:

That's what he told you.

# 909 A:

Yes. he did.

# 910 Q:

Did he tell you what his plans were between the recital and the red eye?

# 911 A:

No.

# 912 Q:

Did you ask?

# 913 A:

No.

# 914 Q:

Was it your habit to ask Mr. Simpson what his plans were?

# 915 A:

# 916 Q:

What his activities were?

# 917 A:

No.

# 918 Q:

What his whereabouts were?

# 919 A:

No.

# 920 Q:

And you didn't do so on that occasion. Right?

# 921 A:

Did not.

# 922 Q:

What was O.J. Simpson wearing when you had that conversation with him in the afternoon of June 12?

# 923 A:

I believe it was white shorts and a sport top and tennis shoes. That's what I recollect in my mind.

# 924 Q:

What did you do after you had this discussion with him about --that you just related to us? What was the next thing you did?

# 925 A:

That I was--I went to play basketball.

# 926 Q:

You were going to go play basketball?

# 927 A:

That I was going to go to the basketball courts.

# 928 Q:

Did you go directly to the basketball courts?

# 929 A:

From--

# 930 Q:

From this afternoon conversation.

# 931 A:

Yes. Before the recital I went to basketball.

# 932 Q:

What time did you leave Simpson's house to go play basketball?

# 933 A:

I imagine it was about 3:30.

# 934 Q:

And had Mr. Simpson left for the recital?

# 935 A:

I don't think so. I think I was gone. I didn't know his whereabouts. Then I just took off.

# 936 Q:

How long did you spend with him that day before you left to play basketball, in this conversation? How long was it?

# 937 A:

I guess about an hour.

# 938 Q:

How long had spent with him the day before?

# 939 A:

About an hour, hour and a half.

# 940 Q:

All told?

# 941 A:

Yeah.

# 942 Q:

On Saturday?

# 943 A:

Yeah. Maybe a half hour either way.

# 944 A:

But at least an hour.

# 945 Q:

Now, where did you go play basketball?

# 946 A:

I don't know the name of the place, but these courts are sort of like at a school on I think 14th Street in Santa Monica, and it's just--you've got to park and climb like a fence and you go, and I don't know the name of the school, but it's near a Vons store.

# 947 Q:

A Vons?

# 948 A:

A Vons.

# 949 Q:

You drove there?

# 950 A:

I drove to basketball.

# 951 Q:

And you played with a group of guys?

# 952 A:

Just pickup games, just pick up each other and...

# 953 Q:

When you finished playing basketball, was it light out or dark out?

# 954 A:

It was still light.

# 955 Q:

Had you eaten yet?

# 956 A:

No, not all day.

# 957 Q:

You were hungry?

# 958 A:

Yes.

# 959 Q:

Did you get any food after you left the basketball game?

# 960 A:

I did. I drove to Vons and I picked up--they have those sushi dishes that are pre-made. So I got a California roll, like six pieces, because I was starving.

# 961 Q:

Where did you eat them?

# 962 A:

In the car in the parking lot.

# 963 Q:

Were you satisfied at that point?

# 964 PHILLIP BAKER:

Object.

# 965 KATO KAELIN:

Six pieces of sushi? No. I mean, it's--it put a partial dent in my lung that's about it, but I was still hungry, but it put me over for--from basketball and running, I needed something.

# 966

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 967 Q:

When you came back --when you left Vons, where did you go?

# 968 A:

I went back home.

# 969 Q:

And where did you park?

# 970 A:

I parked at the--right on Ashford Street, right here (Indicating).

# 971 Q:

Now, you are pointing east of the Ashford gate. Right?

# 972 A:

Yes. I am.

# 973 Q:

And you parked your Z there Is that right?

# 974 A:

Yes. I did.

# 975 Q:

And that's the last time you used the car that evening. Right?

# 976 A:

Correct.

# 977 Q:

Now, when you went in, you went in the Ashford gate?

# 978 A:

Yes, I did.

# 979 Q:

And what did you do after that?

# 980 A:

Okay. So I went in the Ashford gate and saw O.J. was there in the nook area again, and he called, and I saw him again.

# 981 Q:

He called you again. Second time this day?

# 982 A:

Yes.

# 983 Q:

And you then went into the nook area through that kitchen door?

# 984 Q:

Yes, I did.

# 985 Q:

And what happened next?

# 986 A:

So I--it was after, I know, he had said he was going to the recital and asked him how it was, and then that conversation came up about the dresses that Nicole was wearing and that there was--he wanted to see Sydney after the recital and Nicole didn't let him and he said, "Oh, she's playing hardball with me," and...

# 987 Q:

That's what he said to you?

# 988 A:

Yes. And I know--

# 989 Q:

What else did he say to you?

# 990 A:

I think it was on the lines of playing hardball, that she has no right, you know, to take his kids. They're his kids, too, that he has the right to see the kids, and she can't just run off with them, and he was upset that she did.

# 991 Q:

That's what he told you?

# 992 A:

Yeah. But it was that thing of playing hardball with him.

# 993 Q:

Excuse me?

# 994 A:

The term "hardball," "playing hardball with me," and, you know. "They're my children, too. I wanted to see Sidney after the recital," and I believe from the conversation Nicole didn't let O.J. see Sydney.

# 995 Q:

That's what he told you?

# 996 A:

Yes.

# 997 Q:

Did he say anything about going to dinner with the family after the recital?

# 998 PHILLIP BAKER:

Object, leading.

# 999 KATO KAELIN:

He may have said that, that they all went to dinner.

# 1000

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1001 Q:

Did he say whether or not he went with them?

# 1002 A:

That he did not go.

# 1003 Q:

Did he say why?

# 1004 A:

I believe because he wasn't invited.

# 1005 Q:

Is it around this time that you then, sensing the tension and uneasiness, decided to take your jacuzzi?

# 1006 PHILLIP BAKER:

Leading.

# 1007 KATO KAELIN:

Yes. I did. I was --there was the tension and also very soreness. It was both and--

# 1008

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1009 Q:

Tension--

# 1010 A:

--I wanted to get out of the house .

# 1011 Q:

You wanted to get out of the house.

# 1012 A:

Get out and get into the jacuzzi.

# 1013 Q:

Well, let me be real clear on this. Okay? You felt tension?

# 1014 A:

: Yeah, there was some--I believe O.J. was frustrated from that event.

# 1015 Q:

And you wanted--

# 1016 A:

I could sense it.

# 1017 Q:

--to leave?

# 1018 A:

Yeah, I wanted to get out and--

# 1019 Q:

You also wanted to take a jacuzzi because you were sore?

# 1020 A:

Right. So I asked permission, and I took a jacuzzi, and that was it

# 1021 Q:

Okay. Did you console Mr. Simpson at all?

# 1022 A:

I don't know if it's consoling, but I think sometime--I don't know what part of the conversation--I said, "I don't know why you'd be upset. You've got everything." O.J.'s got a--

# 1023 Q:

What did he say?

# 1024 A:

I don't think there was any answer.

# 1025 Q:

What was he wearing?

# 1026 A:

I remember it being a dark sweat outfit, kind of a sharp sweat--you know, dress kinda sweats.

# 1027 Q:

Okay. And--

# 1028 A:

I think I remember a white zipper. I think, in my head, it was a dark suit with a white zipper.

# 1029 Q:

And where were you and Mr. Simpson when you saw him in these dark sweats having this conversation?

# 1030 A:

It was in the nook area.

# 1031 Q:

In the kitchen?

# 1032 A:

Kitchen.

# 1033 Q:

When you went off to do the jacuzzi, was it light out or dark out?

# 1034 A:

When I went in the jacuzzi, I remember going into the jacuzzi that it was becoming dusk. So I remember that feeling of watching it become dark while I was sitting there. And it was June, so it was about 8:00 o'clock or so, 8:30, whenever it got dark, but I remember it going to darkness.

# 1035 Q:

And did you go change your clothes or just jump on in?

# 1036 A:

I had my basketball stuff on. I took off my tennis shoes by the jacuzzi and my socks, and I hopped in. I think I got a towel, too.

# 1037 Q:

Excuse me?

# 1038 A:

I think I got a towel out of my room, though. I believe I took a towel in.

# 1039 Q:

Let 's look at Exhibit 27. You see the area marked "Kaelin's room"?

# 1040 A:

Uh-huh.

# 1041 Q:

Is that your room.

# 1042 A:

Yes. it is.

# 1043 Q:

And where is the jacuzzi on Exhibit 27?

# 1044 A:

See the pool?

# 1045 Q:

Yes.

# 1046 A:

The very end of that pool is a jacuzzi. It would actually be like a little bridge here (Indicating). It's not drawn in. And it would be that part, would be the jacuzzi.

# 1047 Q:

You are referring to the north end of the pool?

# 1048 A:

Yes, the north end.

# 1049 Q:

While you were taking that jacuzzi, could you see Mr. Simpson?

# 1050 A:

No.

# 1051 Q:

Did you see what he was doing?

# 1052 A:

No.

# 1053 Q:

Did you know where he was?

# 1054 A:

No.

# 1055 Q:

Could you hear him talking to anyone?

# 1056 A:

No.

# 1057 Q:

Do you have any idea what he was doing while you were taking the jacuzzi?

# 1058 A:

No.

# 1059 Q:

When you walked into the Ashford gate and to the kitchen nook after playing basketball when Mr. Simpson called you, you had to walk by the front entranceway. Is that right?

# 1060 A:

After basketball?

# 1061 Q:

Yeah.

# 1062 A:

Walked through the front here (Indicating). yes.

# 1063 Q:

And then you had to walk past the front entranceway to get to the kitchen door. Right?

# 1064 A:

Yes, I did.

# 1065 Q:

Now, when you walked past that front entranceway, did you see golf bags lying there?

# 1066 A:

Did not.

# 1067 Q:

Did you see anything lying there?

# 1068 A:

No.

# 1069 Q:

How long were you in the jacuzzi?

# 1070 A:

I think I was in the jacuzzi 20 minutes or so.

# 1071 Q:

Then what did you do?

# 1072 A:

Okay. After the jacuzzi I went back to my room, and I think I dried off. I might have rinsed off in the shower. I don't know. But I had dried, and I changed out of my shorts, and I got on the phone.

# 1073 Q:

Now, when you took the walk from the jacuzzi to your room, did you see O.J. Simpson?

# 1074 A:

No.

# 1075 Q:

Did you hear him?

# 1076 A:

No.

# 1077 Q:

Did you know where he was?

# 1078 A:

No.

# 1079 Q:

Did you know what he was doing?

# 1080 A:

No.

# 1081 Q:

So you went in your room?

# 1082 A:

Yes.

# 1083 Q:

And what did you do?

# 1084 A:

Well, I probably dried off and probably did rinse off in the shower from the jacuzzi, and then I got on the phone.

# 1085 Q:

Who did you call?

# 1086 A:

I think --on Sundays I call my house a lot, my family in [City Deleted], and I called I believe a Susan Wilkinsen and I called my buddy, Tom O'Brian, and I believe it was--I think it was during the Tom call that O.J. came by the door and told me that I forgot to turn the jacuzzi jets off and--

# 1087 Q:

Hold on a second. Tom O'Brian lived where at the time of this call?

# 1088 A:

San Diego.

# 1089 Q:

It's a long-distance call?

# 1090 A:

Yes.

# 1091 Q:

And Susan Wilkinsen lived where?

# 1092 A:

Susan lived in Brentwood.

# 1093 Q:

Local call.

# 1094 A:

Yes.

# 1095 Q:

And your parents lived where?

# 1096 A:

[Deleted]. My mom.

# 1097 Q:

Your mom, in [Deleted].

# 1098 A:

Yes.

# 1099 Q:

That's where you're from?

# 1100 A:

Yes.

# 1101 Q:

Call your mom a lot?

# 1102 A:

I call the family a lot, yeah. Everybody lives in [Deleted], but usually my mom, everybody goes there on Sundays.

# 1103 Q:

Why did you call Susan Wilkinsen?

# 1104 A:

It was a girl that--I wasn't dating Susan. I spent a lot of time on the phone, and she would be just one of the--I joke with people a lot, so I call up and just have jokes during the phone and kind of the passing of time: "What are you doing tonight," just--it was just casual conversation.

# 1105 Q:

You spend a lot of time on the phone in your room. Right?

# 1106 A:

Yes.

# 1107 Q:

Not a lot else to do in your room. Right?

# 1108 A:

No. I watch TV or that, but I talk on the phone a lot.

# 1109 Q:

You have call waiting. Right?

# 1110 A:

Yes.

# 1111 PHILLIP BAKER:

At that time?

# 1112 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Yeah.

# 1113 Q:

We are talking about June 12, 1994.

# 1114 A:

Yes. I had call waiting at that time.

# 1115 Q:

Now, what did you and Susan Wilkinsen discuss?

# 1116 A:

I said, "Susan, what are you doing tonight? What's happening? What's going on for you this week?" You know, no real plan. I think we were possibly going to see each other that night or not. I had already--Susan had played tennis with O.J. earlier in the week or a week before or just hit tennis balls.

# 1117 Q:

When you walked into the Ashford gate, getting out of your car after basketball, and you walked through the kitchen door-- Are you with me?

# 1118 A:

Yes.

# 1119 Q:

--did you run into the Bronco in the driveway?

# 1120 A:

I do not remember seeing the Bronco. I do not remember seeing it.

# 1121 Q:

In the driveway.

# 1122 A:

In the driveway

# 1123 Q:

Okay. So you are talking to Susan Wilkinsen, and what's the next thing that you can recall?

# 1124 A:

If I remember, I think I might have called my buddy Tom, and during that conversation with Tom, I think it was O.J. came by and said, "Kato?" I said, "Yeah." He said, "You forgot to turn the jacuzzi off," and he was at the door of my front room. And I came to the door, I went, "Oh, God." So I was almost getting ready to do it, and he had said he had shut them off already.

# 1125 Q:

Were you on the phone when Mr. Simpson came to your door?

# 1126 A:

I believe so. I believe I was on the phone to Tom.

# 1127 Q:

And he came to your door, and he said what to you? Mr. Simpson said what to you?

# 1128 A:

"Hey, Kato, you done taking a jacuzzi?" And I said "Yeah." And he said, "Oh, you left the jets on," and so I--

# 1129 Q:

Let me stop you there.

# 1130 PHILLIP BAKER:

You interrupted him again.

# 1131 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

I want to take this in pieces. Okay?

# 1132 PHILLIP BAKER:

Well, I think you've got to give him an opportunity to answer your questions the I way he wants to answer them. You're taking the deposition, but it's his deposition .

# 1133 KATO KAELIN:

So he came to the door, and he had said, "Kato, you forgot to turn the jacuzzi jets off." So I was about to go out and go, "Oh, I'll turn them off." Then he goes. "No. I did it already."

# 1134

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1135 Q:

Did you feel bad that you hadn't turned the jacuzzi jets off?

# 1136 A:

Well. I felt bad because I had asked permission to do it, and I screwed up --I felt like I screwed up because I left the jets on. It was like a privilege I screwed up on.

# 1137 Q:

Did he appear, in telling you this, to be a little annoyed?

# 1138 A:

Not annoyed. It was kind of tired.

# 1139 Q:

Tired.

# 1140 A:

He seemed tired at the time. "Hey, you left the jacuzzi jets on."

# 1141 Q:

How many times had Mr. Simpson ever come to your room before to tell you about the jacuzzi jets?

# 1142 A:

Never.

# 1143 Q:

How many times had he ever come to your room before at all?

# 1144 A:

I don't think ever.

# 1145 Q:

So this is the first time Mr. Simpson ever came to your room while you were in it: On the evening of June 12. Correct?

# 1146 A:

Correct.

# 1147 Q:

Just so I rephrase that, because it was a little awkward, June 12, 1994 in the evening, after you took a jacuzzi and while you were in your room was the first time Mr. Simpson ever came to your room. Correct?

# 1148 A:

Correct.

# 1149 Q:

Let me show you--

# 1150 A:

Can I ask a question, Dan?

# 1151 Q:

Sure.

# 1152 A:

There was a time when Sydney and Justin came by where they were in my room, and he had come through the office area to my room.

# 1153 Q:

That's an internal door?

# 1154 A:

Yeah. But he was in my room that time. I don't want to--

# 1155 Q:

So the only other time he had ever been near your room is when he came through the interior office door to get the kids.

# 1156 A:

Yeah. The kids were with--you know, hanging out with me, and he came by the room.

# 1157 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

We can't have any of these audible comments.

# 1158 MICHAEL PLOTKIN:

You guys want to speak for a minute?

# 1159 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

No, they can't speak for a minute. Okay?

# 1160 MICHAEL PLOTKIN:

We will take a break if they want to speak for a minute.

# 1161 PHILLIP BAKER:

Okay, let's take a break.

# 1162 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

I don't think it's appropriate. We are in the middle of the examination of the witness.

# 1163 PHILLIP BAKER:

We just took a break.

# 1164 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Look, we have taken two breaks already now. It's only 11:15. Is there a reason for this break?

# 1165 PHILLIP BAKER:

I thought he said. "Do you want to take a break?"

BY MR. PETROCELLI: I don't think Mr.--I think he was--

# 1166 MICHAEL PLOTKIN:

I thought you guys--

# 1167 PHILLIP BAKER:

Fine, let's keep going.

# 1168 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Thank you. I just don't want comments that are audible that can distract the witness or anyone else here.

# 1169 Q:

Let me talk a little bit about this interior door. Your room connects to the Simpson residence?

# 1170 A:

Yes, it does.

# 1171 Q:

And there is an interior door that connects your room to the Simpson residence. Right?

# 1172 A:

Yes.

# 1173 Q:

Now, that door is typically locked or unlocked?

# 1174 A:

It normally is always locked.

# 1175 Q:

And it's locked from your side or the other side?

# 1176 A:

It's locked from the other side.

# 1177 Q:

So if you wanted to go from your room into the Simpson residence through that interior door, you can't do so. Is that right?

# 1178 A:

Correct. Unless it would be opened.

# 1179 Q:

And you had no key to it. Right?

# 1180 A:

No key.

# 1181 Q:

Do you know whether that door was on an alarm?

# 1182 A:

I believe I knew it was on an alarm. The house had an alarm. So it was part of the house, so. yes, it was on an alarm.

# 1183 Q:

Was there a key pad on your side of that door?

# 1184 A:

No.

# 1185 Q:

As of this point in time, did you have any familiarity with the security system at the house?

# 1186 PHILLIP BAKER:

On June 12?

# 1187 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

As of the time Mr. Simpson came to see him in his room on June 12, 1994.

# 1188 KATO KAELIN:

Yeah, I knew the house had an alarm. I knew--I think it was protected--I believe I knew it was Westec.

# 1189

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1190 Q:

Did you know anything about how it functioned?

# 1191 A:

No.

# 1192 Q:

No one had ever given you any instructions. Right?

# 1193 A:

No.

# 1194 Q:

Including Mr. Simpson. Correct?

# 1195 A:

Correct.

# 1196 Q:

And you've already testified you had no knowledge of the security code. Correct?

# 1197 A:

Correct.

# 1198 Q:

How many digits the code was. Right?

# 1199 PHILLIP BAKER:

Asked and answered.

# 1200 KATO KAELIN:

Did not know anything about the security code.

# 1201

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1202 Q:

Zero.

# 1203 A:

Zero.

# 1204 Q:

When you had lived there the prior six months, was Mr. Simpson out of town from time to time?

# 1205 A:

Yes.

# 1206 Q:

And during the times that he was out of town while you lived there at Rockingham, he never once asked you to set the alarm. Is that right?

# 1207 A:

Correct.

# 1208 PHILLIP BAKER:

Asked and answered.

# 1209

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1210 Q:

Tell me what you did when Mr. Simpson told you about the jacuzzi.

# 1211 A:

When he told me about the jacuzzi, I was going to--I was already up and I was almost attempting --I stayed in my room, but I was attempting to go out and turn it off, but he said he already had turned it off, the jacuzzi.

# 1212 Q:

So he came to tell you that you had not turned it off, but he had already turned it off.

# 1213 A:

Correct.

# 1214 Q:

What was he wearing?

# 1215 A:

In my mind, it was the same suit, that black sweat with the white zipper and--the sharp sweat suit.

# 1216 Q:

Black sweats?

# 1217 A:

Black, dark colored, yeah, black.

# 1218 Q:

After he told you about the jacuzzi jets, what did he do?

# 1219 A:

It looked like he was walking back into the house area.

# 1220 Q:

Did you follow him?

# 1221 A:

No. I think I was still on the phone or I returned my call. I think I was still on the phone.

# 1222 Q:

Did you go out to talk to him?

# 1223 A:

No. He had already said he had turned that off and all that, so I thought --kind of being reprimanded, so I wasn't going to go out of my way to talk to him. I think I just apologized, and that was it.

# 1224 Q:

Okay. And what did you then do.

# 1225 A:

There was a thing--I think it was coming up at this part--where O.J. had mentioned on the walk going back to the house my friend Susan. He said "Let's get them back together for like another cookout," for a cookout and--when he comes back.

# 1226 Q:

O.J. Simpson asked you to invite your friend Susan Wilkinsen over to the house?

# 1227 A:

Correct.

# 1228 Q:

At a time when he would be there. Right?

# 1229 A:

Right.

# 1230 Q:

Now, when did he say this to you?

# 1231 A:

It was I think that jacuzzi trip when he came to the door, and it was kind of like when he was doing his walk back towards the house, and I had my head by the door and he said it. I didn't go outside my room.

# 1232 Q:

So after he tells you about the jacuzzi, Mr. Simpson then heads back towards his--

# 1233 A:

It was during the walk. It was during that walk. He wasn't in the house, and he said "Oh, let's"--

# 1234 Q:

Let me ask my question. Okay? Because--

# 1235 PHILLIP BAKER:

You're cutting him off again.

# 1236 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

I didn't finish my question.

# 1237 Q:

That time you cut me off, Mr. Kaelin.

# 1238 A:

Okay.

# 1239 Q:

Mr. Simpson came to the outside of the door to your room, made the comment about the jacuzzi, and then did he start to walk back towards the house when he made the comment about Susan Wilkinsen?

# 1240 A:

Yes.

# 1241 Q:

With his back towards you?

# 1242 A:

Back towards me but turned. Then he turned and said it.

# 1243 Q:

And you could see him walking back?

# 1244 A:

Well, I was out the door, looking out, so my door was kind of open and me looking in that direction. I said. "Okay, I'll call."

# 1245 Q:

Now, when he came to make this comment about the jacuzzi, he never stepped inside the house. Is that right?

# 1246 A:

In my room?

# 1247 Q:

I'm sorry. Inside your room. Right?

# 1248 A:

Correct.

# 1249 Q:

So how did you see him?

# 1250 A:

It was through the door, the screen--my room has a door.

# 1251 Q:

Can you see through that door?

# 1252 A:

You can see through the door, but it's-- I think it was one of those things--

# 1253 Q:

Slats?

# 1254 A:

No. Slats in the wooden part, but it was a screen also that has wiring. A screen door.

# 1255 Q:

So you clearly saw him.

# 1256 A:

Yeah .

# 1257 Q:

Okay. And you saw him as he headed back to the house. He turned his head.

# 1258 A:

Yes.

# 1259 Q:

Now, you then stayed on your telephone call. Right?

# 1260 A:

Yes.

# 1261 Q:

And how long were you on that call?

# 1262 A:

I think it was still the same call to Tom. It was a short one. Or I might have just said "Oh, I'll be right back," call them--"I'll call you back," but it was during the call that O.J. came back again. It seemed like within a few minutes.

# 1263 Q:

Okay. How long was it between the time that Mr. Simpson left your room, the outside of your room, when he made the comment about the jacuzzi and Susan Wilkinsen and then returned?

# 1264 A:

Say it again, the question. I'm sorry.

# 1265 Q:

Yeah. I'm trying to ask you, what was the interval of time --Withdrawn. You were telling us that Mr. Simpson returned to your room area. Is that right?

# 1266 A:

After the first jacuzzi--when he came by the jacuzzi, he left, and then he did come back, yes.

# 1267 Q:

So he came back a second time to your room.

# 1268 A:

Correct.

# 1269 Q:

Pretty unusual. Right?

# 1270 A:

Correct.

# 1271 Q:

Okay. And what was the interval of time between his two visits to your room.?

# 1272 A:

I think it was within 5 or 10 minutes. It seemed--

# 1273 Q:

When he came back the second time, where were you?

# 1274 A:

On the phone again.

# 1275 Q:

And you could see through your door again.

# 1276 A:

Yes.

# 1277 Q:

Did he come in or stay out?

# 1278 A:

Stayed out.

# 1279 Q:

Could you see him?

# 1280 A:

Yes.

# 1281 Q:

What was he wearing?

# 1282 A:

Same outfit: The black sweats.

# 1283 Q:

What did he say to you?

# 1284 A:

That--he asked me if I had any money on him--on me. He needed five bucks for the skycap.

# 1285 Q:

What did you say?

# 1286 A:

I said, "Yeah, let me check." So I checked the drawer I keep my money in, and I said "Yeah," and I gave him 20.

# 1287 Q:

Now, did he say he wanted--that he needed money or he needed change?

# 1288 A:

I think he said he needed $5 for the skycap.

# 1289 Q:

Did you understand he had no money on him at all?

# 1290 A:

I think in the conversation he said he had hundreds.

# 1291 Q:

Okay. So he had hundreds.

# 1292 A:

He had hundreds, and he needed a five for the skycap.

# 1293 Q:

What did you do?

# 1294 A:

I gave him a 20.

# 1295 Q:

Why?

# 1296 A:

I said that's all I had. I didn't have a five.

# 1297 Q:

Handed him a 20?

# 1298 A:

Yes.

# 1299 Q:

Okay. Now, how many times before this occasion had Mr. Simpson come to your room and asked you for change?

# 1300 A:

Never.

# 1301 Q:

So this was the very first time. Is that right?

# 1302 A:

Correct.

# 1303 Q:

You handed him the S20 bill. Correct?

# 1304 A:

Yes, I did.

# 1305 Q:

How many times before had you handed him a S20 bill?

# 1306 A:

Never.

# 1307 Q:

This was the first time.

# 1308 A:

Yes.

# 1309 Q:

This was also the first time that he came to your room two times in one night. Right?

# 1310 A:

Correct.

# 1311 Q:

And so you gave him the 20, and then what happened?

# 1312 A:

Before I gave him the 20, I believe I was talking to Tom. I said "Tom, I'll call you back."

# 1313 Q:

Tom O'Brian?

# 1314 A:

Tom O'Brian. So I hung up the phone with Tom, I gave O.J. the money, and I believe that's when I invited myself. He said he was going to get a hamburger, and I invited myself to go with him.

# 1315 Q:

Let me stop you right there.

# 1316 A:

Okay.

# 1317 Q:

When he asked for the change or the money for the skycap, at that point in time did he say anything about food or going to dinner?

# 1318 A:

He didn't.

# 1319 Q:

You then went inside--or you were already inside. Right?

# 1320 A:

I was inside. It was--where I gave him--I think when he came to the door, I believe I said to Tom, "I'll call you back," then gave him the money-

# 1321 Q:

Stop. You hung up the phone.

# 1322 A:

Yes.

# 1323 PHILLIP BAKER:

I am going to object that you are stopping him in the middle of his answers.

# 1324

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1325 Q:

Where did you go to get the money?

# 1326 A:

My drawer. I had a dresser drawer that I kept the money in. If I didn't have it in my pants, I had it in my dresser drawer.

# 1327 Q:

And then you took the money, and you went and handed it to Mr. Simpson?

# 1328 A:

Yes.

# 1329 Q:

Now, he is still standing outside?

# 1330 A:

Yes.

# 1331 Q:

And you opened the door?

# 1332 A:

Yes.

# 1333 Q:

Did you then go outside?

# 1334 A:

Yes.

# 1335 Q:

Now the two of you are outside standing face to face?

# 1336 A:

Yes.

# 1337 Q:

How much distance is between you?

# 1338 A:

Right here (Indicating). The same as maybe--closer.

# 1339 Q:

Two or three feet?

# 1340 A:

Yes

# 1341 Q:

And he's got black sweats on.

# 1342 A:

Yes.

# 1343 Q:

You handed him the 20. Right?

# 1344 A:

Yes.

# 1345 Q:

And what did he then say to you?

# 1346 A:

That he was going to get a hamburger.

# 1347 Q:

Did he say he was going to get a hamburger, or did he say he was going to eat, or did he say he was going to dinner? What's your best recollection?

# 1348 PHILLIP BAKER:

Asked and answered.

# 1349 KATO KAELIN:

I believe it was to get a hamburger, I think it was that. "I'm gonna get something to eat." I'm going to get a ham"--I think it was a hamburger. I can't remember the exact words.

# 1350 Q:

Now, as he said to you "I'm going to get a hamburger," did he sort of turn to walk away back to the house?

# 1351 A:

Yeah, somewhat.

# 1352 Q:

And did you then go back inside?

# 1353 A:

No. I think when he said that, I asked if I could go.

# 1354 Q:

And how did you ask it?

# 1355 A:

"Hey, can I come along?"

# 1356 Q:

Had you ever done that before?

# 1357 A:

No.

# 1358 Q:

Why did you do it on this occasion?

# 1359 A:

You know, I just did. I was--I had that sushi, and that was it, and I was hungry, and think I just said, "Hey, can I go? Mind if I go along?" Then he kind of went, "Yeah, sure."

# 1360 Q:

That's what his reaction was?

# 1361 A:

(Nods head.) And so I thought it was like I shouldn't go, and it was revolving maybe around the jacuzzi or whatever, but I sort of like invited myself.

# 1362 Q:

Could you do that again in terms of what his reaction was to your invitation to have yourself go to dinner with him?

# 1363 A:

When he said he was going to get the hamburger, I said, "Hey, do you mind if I come along," and in my head I thought it was like a pause and, "Sure."

# 1364 Q:

So there was a hesitation before he responded. Right?

# 1365 A:

Yeah.

# 1366 Q:

And then he goes sort of in a shrugging manner?

# 1367 Q:

"Sure." "Sure." It was sort of like--

# 1368 Q:

In other words--

# 1369 Q:

I felt I invited myself. I shouldn't have.

# 1370 Q:

At that point you felt you shouldn't have. Right?

# 1371 A:

Yeah. I didn't know, maybe he wanted to be alone or something. Because, you know, I thought maybe he was feeling lonely or something, and he wanted me not to be around.

# 1372 Q:

Now, at that point in time did he then walk toward the residence?

# 1373 A:

Yes.

# 1374 Q:

And did he wait for you?

# 1375 A:

He was in front, but I followed behind him.

# 1376 Q:

Did he say, "Kato, come with me now"? Did he turn to you and say that?

# 1377 A:

No.

# 1378 Q:

Did he wait until you caught up with him?

# 1379 A:

No.

# 1380 Q:

So he just walks towards the residence, and you're sort of behind him, following. Right?

# 1381 A:

Yes.

# 1382 Q:

Did he say where you guys were going to go to eat?

# 1383 A:

No.

# 1384 Q:

Did he say, "Where would you like to go, Kato?"

# 1385 A:

No.

# 1386 Q:

Did he say, you know, "You should put something else on. We're going to go to Dray's"?

# 1387 A:

No.

# 1388 Q:

Did he say, "We're going to McDonald's. You can dress the way you are"?

# 1389 Q:

No.

# 1390 Q:

Did he say a single thing to you about your arrangements for going to dinner now?

# 1391 A:

No.

# 1392 Q:

Did he say. "You drive, Kato"?

# 1393 A:

No.

# 1394 Q:

Feeling awkward, feeling that you had invited yourself, why didn't you just change your mind at that point and say, "O.J. I'll just stay home"?

# 1395 PHILLIP BAKER:

Objection. Leading. Mischaracterizes his testimony.

# 1396

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1397 Q:

You may answer. Why didn't you just change your mind at that point?

# 1398 A:

I almost thought about changing it. No, but I didn't, because I was already invited and I was already walking and I thought that might make it even more uncomfortable, so I just went with it.

# 1399 Q:

In your dealings with Mr. Simpson, are you typically very conscious of your behavior with him?

# 1400 A:

Yes.

# 1401 Q:

Are you conscious about not overstepping your bounds with him?

# 1402 A:

Yes.

# 1403 Q:

You're conscious about respecting his privacy?

# 1404 A:

Yes.

# 1405 Q:

Is that one of the reasons why these feelings stick out in your mind?

# 1406 A:

Yes.

# 1407 Q:

Now, when Mr. Simpson went ahead without you, where did he go?

# 1408 PHILLIP BAKER:

Objection, Mischaracterizes the testimony.

# 1409

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1410 Q:

When he walked ahead of you--

# 1411 A:

It was the back door, the back door of the house. It's a back door. We went through the bar area, through the kitchen nook area to the car. So I walked in, got in the passenger side and he got in the car, the Bentley --Rolls-Royce--

# 1412 Q:

Now, slow down.

# 1413 A:

Okay.

# 1414 Q:

I am trying to go step by step. Mr. Kaelin.

# 1415 A:

Okay.

# 1416 Q:

When he went into the house, you then entered the back way? You followed behind him?

# 1417 A:

Yes, I did.

# 1418 Q:

Did he then come out of the other side of the house?

# 1419 A:

Yes.

# 1420 Q:

And which entrance did he come out? Or exit, I should say.

# 1421 A:

The exit was the nook door, kitchen nook door.

# 1422 Q:

Then he went out onto the driveway. Is that right?

# 1423 A:

Correct

# 1424 Q:

Did he set the alarm.

# 1425 A:

No.

# 1426 Q:

Did he ask you to set the alarm?

# 1427 A:

# 1428 Q:

Now, did he tell you what car you were going to be driving in?

# 1429 A:

# 1430 Q:

Did you see a Bronco there?

# 1431 A:

No.

# 1432 Q:

What cars were in the driveway, or car?

# 1433 A:

Just the Rolls-Royce, what I saw.

# 1434 Q:

And looking at Exhibit 27, can you tell me where the Rolls-Royce was parked?

# 1435 A:

Here's the driveway (Indicating), and the Rolls-Royce would be parked right in this area (Indicating) where normally it would be parked in that --it's an open area, and it would be--if it wasn't in that entire area, most of it would be in that jetty there (Indicating).

# 1436 Q:

Is it a Bentley?

# 1437 A:

Yes.

# 1438 Q:

Okay, let's call it a Bentley then. There is a Bentley parked where this indentation occurs on Exhibit 27 on the driveway that leads to the Rockingham gate. Is that right?

# 1439 A:

That is correct.

# 1440 Q:

And you then got in what side of the Bentley?

# 1441 A:

I got in the passenger door. So I sat in the passenger side, the right side.

# 1442 Q:

And did he have to unlock the door for you?

# 1443 A:

I think it was open. I think I got in.

# 1444 Q:

How did you know that you were going to be going to eat in a Bentley?

# 1445 A:

I didn't know.

# 1446 Q:

You didn't know.

# 1447 A:

I just saw that he walked to that car, and I followed.

# 1448 Q:

So you assumed, because he was heading towards the Bentley, that you ought to also head towards the Bentley. Right?

# 1449 A:

Yes.

# 1450 Q:

And by this time had he told you where you were going to eat?

# 1451 A:

No.

# 1452 Q:

Had he asked you what your pleasure was?

# 1453 A:

No.

# 1454 Q:

You get in the car and he gets in the car?

# 1455 A:

Correct.

# 1456 Q:

Before you drive off now, was there any conversation en route to that car?

# 1457 A:

No.

# 1458 Q:

No conversation from the moment that you asked him if you could go along until--all the way through this point in time, there is no conversation. Is that right?

# 1459 A:

Up till I got into the car, no, we didn't talk.

# 1460 Q:

Up to this point in time there is no conversation.

# 1461 A:

Correct.

# 1462 Q:

Now he starts the car up?

# 1463 A:

Yes.

# 1464 Q:

And then what does he do?

# 1465 A:

I believe the gate--he pushed a button and the gate opened. In the car I think he had a remote, and opened the gate, and we took off.

# 1466 Q:

Let me stop you there now. Which way did the gate open, the Rockingham gate, inward or outward?

# 1467 A:

It opened up inward.

# 1468 Q:

Did it open to the south side of the property or to the north side?

# 1469 A:

South side.

# 1470 Q:

Meaning this way (Indicating)?

# 1471 A:

Correct.

# 1472 Q:

Or this way (Indicating)?

# 1473 PHILLIP BAKER:

I'm not sure it's--

# 1474 KATO KAELIN:

My recollection is that it does open south.

# 1475

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1476 Q:

Now, when he pulled out of that driveway and he pulled the Bentley past the point of the gate-- Are you with me?

# 1477 A:

Yes.

# 1478 Q:

--did he stop and wait until the gate was completely closed before he left?

# 1479 A:

I don't believe so, no.

# 1480 Q:

Did he say, "Kato, let's make sure Chachi doesn't run out of the gate"? Yes or no.

# 1481 A:

No.

# 1482 Q:

Was there any discussion about the dog Chachi at this point in time?

# 1483 A:

No.

# 1484 Q:

Your recollection is that he pulls out onto the driveway--I mean out of the gate and then begins to turn and take off. Right?

# 1485 A:

Correct.

# 1486 Q:

And there is no hesitation or waiting other than to look for traffic?

# 1487 A:

Correct.

# 1488 Q:

Now, is it your--You've ridden in the passenger seats of cars before. Right?

# 1489 A:

Yes.

# 1490 Q:

When people are driving you around?

# 1491 (Nods head.)

# 1492 Q:

Is that right?

# 1493 A:

I have.

# 1494 Q:

Are you fairly conscious of the traffic around you?

# 1495 A:

Yes.

# 1496 Q:

When you are in the passenger seat, you sort of look both ways for oncoming traffic?

# 1497 Q:

Yes.

# 1498 Q:

Kind of a habit of yours?

# 1499 A:

Uh-huh.

# 1500 Q:

You have to answer audibly.

# 1501 A:

Yes.

# 1502 Q:

When you came out of this driveway, which --the Rockingham driveway now--Withdrawn. What time of the evening is it, to the best of your recollection, when you got in that Bentley and headed towards that Rockingham gate?

# 1503 A:

It's about 9:10.

# 1504 Q:

P.M.?

# 1505 A:

9:10 p.m.

# 1506 Q:

Dark out?

# 1507 A:

Yes.

# 1508 Q:

When you pulled out of the Rockingham gate, which way did Mr. Simpson turn?

# 1509 A:

Out of the Rockingham gate, we made a left.

# 1510 Q:

Onto Rockingham.

# 1511 A:

Correct.

# 1512 Q:

Now, when you pulled out of that Rockingham gate, you were sitting in the passenger seat, and you had a window to your right. Correct?

# 1513 A:

Correct.

# 1514 Q:

And there wasn't anything covering that window, was there?

# 1515 A:

No.

# 1516 Q:

Did you look out the window to see if cars were coming?

# 1517 A:

I believe I did.

# 1518 Q:

Now, right to the right--Withdrawn. Did you see the Bronco parked right on the other side of the Rockingham gate?

# 1519 A:

Best of my recollection. I did not.

# 1520 Q:

Now let me show you a photograph of the Bronco where it was found. We will have to mark this as the next exhibit in order. There is another one that's a close-up. Let me see it. Let me show you an exhibit--a photograph of the Bronco, which we will mark as the next exhibit in order, which is Plaintiffs' Exhibit 81, I believe, Michael, 78,-9 and 80?

# 1521 MICHAEL BREWER:

78, 79, 80 and 81.

# 1522 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

This will be Plaintiffs' 81, and I will have copies made.

# 1523 PHILLIP BAKER:

Okay. (Plaintiffs' Exhibit was marked for identification by the reporter and is attached hereto.)

# 1524

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1525 Q:

I have placed in front of you Plaintiffs' 81. Do you recognize the automobile depicted in that photograph?

# 1526 A:

Yes.

# 1527 Q:

What is it?

# 1528 A:

It's a Ford Bronco, O.J.'s Ford Bronco .

# 1529 Q:

You see where it's parked on the Rockingham Street there?

# 1530 A:

Yes.

# 1531 Q:

And it's right next to what gate?

# 1532 A:

Next to the Rockingham gate.

# 1533 Q:

Okay. Now, when you came out with the Bentley at approximately 9:10 p.m. on June 12 and when you looked to the right to see if there was any oncoming traffic before Mr. Simpson turned left, did you see the Bronco there where it is currently parked and positioned in this photograph?

# 1534 A:

I don't believe I did. I probably would have seen it if it was parked so close, because I would have looked. I would have noticed that.

# 1535 Q:

And you didn't notice it.

# 1536 A:

I did not.

# 1537 Q:

Now, as of this point in time, had Mr. Simpson told you where you were going?

# 1538 A:

No.

# 1539 Q:

So when he made that left on Rockingham, you had no idea where you were going. Is that right?

# 1540 A:

That is correct.

# 1541 Q:

Did there come a time in the ride that ensued when he told you where you were going?

# 1542 A:

No.

# 1543 Q:

Did you ask where you were going?

# 1544 A:

No.

# 1545 Q:

Did you make a suggestion as to where to go?

# 1546 A:

No.

# 1547 Q:

And is one of the reasons because you felt awkward enough being there already?

# 1548 A:

Yes.

# 1549 Q:

Felt maybe you had overstepped your bounds?

# 1550 A:

Well, I felt as if it wasn't up to me to say, "Hey, let's go here." It wasn't my call to make. I invited myself, so I wasn't going to say, "Oh, O.J. let 's go to this restaurant." It was his call. So wherever the car was taking us, I was there for the ride.

# 1551 Q:

When did you discover where you were going to eat?

# 1552 A:

When we pulled into McDonald's.

# 1553 Q:

So Mr. Simpson at no time asked you what you would like to eat. Right?

# 1554 A:

Right.

# 1555 Q:

Did he even ask you whether you even liked the food at McDonald's?

# 1556 A:

No.

# 1557 Q:

Had you ever been to McDonald's with Mr. Simpson before?

# 1558 A:

No.

# 1559 Q:

By the way, do you like McDonald's' food?

# 1560 A:

Not really. I don't go very--very rare.

# 1561 Q:

Okay. When you saw him pulling into a McDonald's, did you say to him, "You know, I'd prefer to go someplace else?

# 1562 A:

No, I didn't. I didn't, but that's what I was thinking.

# 1563 Q:

You were thinking that you wanted to go someplace else--

# 1564 A:

Yeah.

# 1565 Q:

--but you didn't tell him.

# 1566 A:

Right.

# 1567 Q:

Now, what McDonald's did you go to?

# 1568 A:

It was on Santa Monica, and I remember it being across from a Carl's Jr. The address, I don't know, but I remember seeing a Carl's Jr.

# 1569 Q:

Did you go inside the restaurant?

# 1570 A:

No.

# 1571 Q:

What did you do?

# 1572 A:

It was the drive-through. We ordered and went to the drive-through, and then we had to pick up the food.

# 1573 Q:

Was there a line there?

# 1574 A:

No.

# 1575 Q:

How long did it take to get there?

# 1576 A:

I remember looking at the clock on the car. At 26th and San Vicente there was a stoplight, and I remember it being 9:15 to 9:18. It was one of those analog, and I thought it was like 9:15 or 9:18. So I imagine from there to get to McDonald's was probably 9:20 or--

# 1577 Q:

Thereabouts.

# 1578 A:

Yeah.

# 1579 Q:

When Mr. Simpson pulled in--pulled up to the drive-up window, did he ask you what you wanted, or did you just say what you wanted?

# 1580 Q:

I think I shouted what it was that I wanted to the intercom. I think I said what I wanted.

# 1581 Q:

In other words, he didn't say. "Kato, what do you want?" and then related to the person. You just said yourself what you wanted.

# 1582 A:

I think I did.

# 1583 Q:

What did you say?

# 1584 A:

I had the chicken. Chicken, fries and large orange soda.

# 1585 Q:

And what did Mr. Simpson order?

# 1586 A:

I think it was the Big Mac. It was the big hamburger sandwich.

# 1587 Q:

The Big Mac.

# 1588 A:

Yeah. I thought maybe fries, and I think that was it. It could have been maybe just a Big Mac.

# 1589 Q:

Just the Big Mac.

# 1590 PHILLIP BAKER:

If you recall.

# 1591 KATO KAELIN:

If I recall. But I remember him eating it.

# 1592

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1593 Q:

Huh?

# 1594 A:

I just remember the sandwich being eaten fast.

# 1595 Q:

By whom

# 1596 A:

O.J. After--

# 1597 MICHAEL PLOTKIN:

I think the question that's on the table is: What was the sandwich?

# 1598 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

He said it was a Big Mac.

# 1599 MICHAEL PLOTKIN:

Are you sure?

# 1600 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

No, that's not where we got off. We got off on whether it was just the Big Mac or Big Mac and fries, and I think that's where he was a little unsure

# 1601 KATO KAELIN:

Yeah. For sure I know it was the large hamburger sandwich.

# 1602

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1603 Q:

Okay. Large hamburger that McDonald's sells.

# 1604 A:

Yes.

# 1605 Q:

Are you familiar with their menu?

# 1606 A:

I know they have like Quarter Pounder and a Big Mac. I don't know if it was the Quarter Pounder or the Big Mac.

# 1607 Q:

And then you--who paid?

# 1608 A:

I paid.

# 1609 Q:

Why?

# 1610 A:

I felt like I owed him, you know, for staying there. I should pay for the dinner.

# 1611 Q:

For staying where?

# 1612 A:

For staying at the house. You know, the least I could do was like, "Let me at least pay for the dinner." It was one of those gestures. So I gave him another 20.

# 1613 Q:

How many times before this evening had you ever paid for dinner before?

# 1614 A:

Never.

# 1615 Q:

How many times had you ever gone to McDonald's with Mr. Simpson before?

# 1616 Q:

Never.

# 1617 Q:

How many times before this evening on June 12 had you ever gone to dinner alone with Mr. Simpson?

# 1618 A:

Never.

# 1619 Q:

What money did you give Mr. Simpson?

# 1620 Q:

I had another 20, and I gave him a 20.

# 1621 Q:

You handed it to him?

# 1622 A:

Yes.

# 1623 Q:

And he handed it to the person?

# 1624 A:

Yes, he did.

# 1625 Q:

Did you get the change back?

# 1626 A:

He got the change and gave me the change.

# 1627 Q:

Now, did the food come in one bag or two bags?

# 1628 A:

One bag.

# 1629 Q:

And who kept the bag.

# 1630 A:

I believe O.J. did.

# 1631 Q:

And what did he do with your food?

# 1632 A:

He had tossed it at me, sort of like saying in a joking way, "Sorry about this," and he tossed the food at me.

# 1633 Q:

Sorry about this" and tossed you--

# 1634 A:

"Sorry about doing this to you," and it was like fries, soda and chicken in my lap.

# 1635 Q:

With no bag.

# 1636 A:

No bag.

# 1637 Q:

And no tray.

# 1638 Q:

No tray.

# 1639 Q:

All in your lap.

# 1640 A:

Yes. And then he drove off.

# 1641 Q:

Yes.

# 1642 Q:

Now, between the house, when you left the house in the Bentley, and McDonald's, did you guys go anywhere else, or did you go directly to McDonald's?

# 1643 A:

Directly to McDonald's.

# 1644 Q:

When he left McDonald's. Did he come directly back to Rockingham.

# 1645 A:

To the house, yes.

# 1646 Q:

Both trips, no stops.

# 1647 A:

No stops.

# 1648 PHILLIP BAKER:

Stops at locations, not obvious stop signs?.

# 1649 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Yeah.

# 1650 Q:

In other words, you didn't stop to go anyplace else--

# 1651 A:

No.

# 1652 Q:

--or talk to anyone?

# 1653 A:

No. Right back home.

# 1654 Q:

Okay. Now, did you eat your food in the car on the way back?

# 1655 A:

No. I think I had like one or two French fries that I took.

# 1656 Q:

Any reason why you didn't eat there in the car?

# 1657 A:

That it was I shouldn't eat in the car, anyways. It was his Bentley, and I wasn't going to eat in the car.

# 1658 Q:

You didn't want to spill anything. Right?

# 1659 A:

Yeah. No, I didn't want to spill. I just didn't want to eat in the car. I thought I'd make crumbs and that sort of thing, and I didn't want to.

# 1660 Q:

And did Mr. Simpson eat his hamburger?

# 1661 A:

Yes.

# 1662 Q:

Did he eat it slowly or quickly?

# 1663 Q:

I think he ate it before we left McDonald's. It was like immediate.

# 1664 Q:

Like 10 seconds, it was down?

# 1665 A:

10--yeah, it was right out of the parking lot and it was gone.

# 1666 Q:

Okay. When he ate that hamburger within a matter of seconds--

# 1667 MR. SIMPSON:

Oh, Jesus.

# 1668 PHILLIP BAKER:

Wait.

# 1669 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Excuse me, please--

# 1670 PHILLIP BAKER:

Why don't we take a quick break, a five-minute break.

# 1671 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

I don't want to take a break. I just--Okay, we have to take a break. The tape--

# 1672 MICHAEL PLOTKIN:

We have to take a break anyway.

# 1673

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the end of tape No. 1. The time is approximately 11:49, and we are off the record. (Recess.)

# 1674

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1675 Q:

We had to switch videotapes. Mr. Kaelin. When--on the way home, you were telling me Mr. Simpson had eaten his hamburger very quickly, almost before he even left the parking lot. Is that right?

# 1676 A:

Yes.

# 1677 Q:

And you didn't eat during the ride home. Right?

# 1678 A:

No.

# 1679 Q:

Did Mr. Simpson tell you that the reason he was eating his hamburger in the car was because he had to get someplace or was in a hurry?

# 1680 A:

No.

# 1681 Q:

Did he give you any reason why he was eating in the car and not at home?

# 1682 A:

No.

# 1683 Q:

Did he say anything to you about that?

# 1684 A:

No.

# 1685 Q:

What did he do with the bag?

# 1686 A:

I remember having my orange drink, and I am pretty positive I said --I asked him if I could have a straw. So I thought the bag was in his lap and I think I got the straw from him.

# 1687 Q:

You mean he didn't use the straw.

# 1688 A:

Right.

# 1689 Q:

And he had kept the straw in the bag?

# 1690 A:

I imagined the straw was in the bag, and I think I was asking, "Can I have a straw?"

# 1691 Q:

Did you feel a little uncomfortable asking for the straw?

# 1692 A:

Well, it was one of those things that the food was in my lap, and I thought--we weren't really talking in the car, so I thought that would break it, and I just said, "Hey, can I have a straw?"

# 1693 Q:

And what did he do?

# 1694 A:

I think he gave me the straw I think he gave me a straw.

# 1695 Q:

What did you do with the straw?

# 1696 A:

Just put it--I put it--I don't think I put it in the drink yet. I think I waited, because it was going to puncture. The juice might come out, the orange soda.

# 1697 Q:

The orange soda might come out and would spill?

# 1698 A:

Yeah.

# 1699 Q:

And you wanted to avoid that?

# 1700 A:

Yeah . So I waited to pop it. Pretty sure.

# 1701 Q:

Can you tell the route you took from Rockingham to McDonald's?

# 1702 A:

It was a left out of McDonald's, I think, and then straight up that road, whatever that--I think it's--,

# 1703 Q:

Left on what?

# 1704 A:

Out of the parking lot of McDonald's.

# 1705 Q:

No. From Rockingham to McDonald's.

# 1706 A:

Oh, okay. It was a left out of Rockingham, and Rockingham takes you to San Vicente, and then all the way to Santa Monica to McDonald's.

# 1707 Q:

Left or right on Santa Monica?

# 1708 A:

I believe it's a left.

# 1709 Q:

Did you go back home in the exact same way?

# 1710 A:

Yes.

# 1711 Q:

And when you came back home to Rockingham, you were then coming north on Rockingham?

# 1712 A:

Correct.

# 1713 Q:

And which gate did Mr. Simpson use to enter the property?

# 1714 A:

I'm pretty positive it was Ashford.

# 1715 Q:

And he pulled in, and what did he do with the Bronco?

# 1716 A:

It was--

# 1717 Q:

Or the Bentley, I mean. I'm sorry.

# 1718 A:

The Bentley. We parked it back in that spot--

# 1719 Q:

What spot?

# 1720 A:

--that it's normally parked in.

# 1721 Q:

What is your best recollection of how much time transpired in this whole journey to and from McDonald's?

# 1722 A:

Getting home at about 9:35, 9:40.

# 1723 Q:

Let me show you some phone records, see if that will refresh your recollection. Now, your phone records indicate a call at 9:37 p.m. on June 12 to a number [Telephone number deleted]. Is that your friend Tom O'Brian?

# 1724 A:

That's Tom's number.

# 1725 Q:

And did you call Tom O'Brian after you got back home from McDonald's?

# 1726 A:

Yes, I did.

# 1727 Q:

So you were obviously home before 9:37 p.m. Right?

# 1728 A:

Correct.

# 1729 Q:

What time do you think you pulled into the Rockingham property after McDonald's?

# 1730 A:

I would say it would be about 9:33.

# 1731 Q:

About four or five minutes before?

# 1732 A:

Yeah.

# 1733 Q:

Now, so you were gone a total of about 15-20 minutes. Correct?

# 1734 Q:

Correct.

# 1735 Q:

Now. during that 15-, 20-minute period was there a lot of discussion between Mr. Simpson and you?

# 1736 A:

No.

# 1737 Q:

Would you say there was very little?

# 1738 A:

Yes. There was conversation about, "So you got a flight. So you're going to Chicago. What airline," and I think that's sort of it.

# 1739 Q:

So you asked some questions. Right?

# 1740 A:

Yes.

# 1741 Q:

"You got a flight?" Is that what you asked?

# 1742 A:

Yeah. Oh, and also. "You look tired," and all that. "You should get a nap."

# 1743 Q:

"You got a flight. You're going to Chicago. You should take a nap." Anything else did you say?

# 1744 A:

I don't think so.

# 1745 Q:

Now, did Mr. Simpson ask you a single question during this trip to and from McDonald's?

# 1746 A:

Not that I remember, no.

# 1747 Q:

At any point during this trip to and from McDonald's, did he initiate conversation on any topic?

# 1748 A:

Not that I remember, no, nothing.

# 1749 Q:

Did he respond to your questions?

# 1750 A:

Yes.

# 1751 Q:

Did he respond with short or long answers?

# 1752 PHILLIP BAKER:

Object as vague.

# 1753 KATO KAELIN:

Short.

# 1754

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1755 Q:

Very short?

# 1756 A:

Short answers.

# 1757 Q:

Did you feel that he pretty much didn't want to talk?

# 1758 A:

Yes.

# 1759 Q:

And at some point did you stop talking?

# 1760 A:

Yes,

# 1761 PHILLIP BAKER:

Object. Leading.

# 1762

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1763 Q:

Did you?

# 1764 Q:

I wasn't trying to force any more conversation, so--

# 1765 Q:

Why did you stop trying to force conversation?

# 1766 A:

Because I felt --I've talked to people before and I think I'm a fair judge of when someone doesn't want to talk, through other communicating skills with people, that maybe I was talking too much and I would just shut up, would be the best thing to do.

# 1767 Q:

And so that's what you decided to do.

# 1768 A:

Not to talk, right.

# 1769 Q:

Did Mr. Simpson say to you. "Look, we'll go inside and eat when we get home"?

# 1770 A:

No.

# 1771 Q:

Or, "Go listen to some music"?

# 1772 A:

No.

# 1773 Q:

Or, "Let's go someplace else after this"?

# 1774 A:

No.

# 1775 Q:

Did he make any plans to spend time with you for the rest of that evening?

# 1776 A:

No.

# 1777 Q:

Did he ask you to do anything with him?

# 1778 A:

No.

# 1779 Q:

Did he ask you to go anyplace with him?

# 1780 A:

No.

# 1781 Q:

Did he ask whether you were available to do anything?

# 1782 A:

No.

# 1783 Q:

Did you have any sense of why he wasn't talking?

# 1784 PHILLIP BAKER:

Objection. Speculation.

# 1785 KATO KAELIN:

I don't think I had a sense. It was just one of those--I could see that it was--I called it kind of in thought. So it was just a drive, and so he was thinking about something. He was just in thought and--

# 1786

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1787 Q:

Quiet?

# 1788 A:

Quiet. So I didn't want to disrupt it. If there was thought going on, it was like okay, and knew not to be talking anymore, but it was definitely my feeling that he was in deep thought.

# 1789 Q:

Now, when you came back from McDonald's and you pull in and he parks the Bentley in the same place where it was before and you're sitting in the passenger seat, you still have the drink, the chicken sandwich and the French fries in your lap without a bag and with a straw. Is that right?

# 1790 A:

Yes.

# 1791 Q:

Did he offer--And he had finished his hamburger. Right?

# 1792 A:

Yes.

# 1793 Q:

Now, did he offer to help you with the food?

# 1794 A:

No.

# 1795 Q:

Did he say "Here, let me help you take that food inside"?

# 1796 A:

No.

# 1797 Q:

Did he get the door for you so that you could get out without fumbling the food?

# 1798 A:

No.

# 1799 Q:

Did you open the door yourself?

# 1800 A:

Yes.

# 1801 Q:

When you opened the door--it was the passenger door. Right?

# 1802 A:

Yes, it was.

# 1803 Q:

And you got up, and you had this food. Right?

# 1804 A:

Correct.

# 1805 Q:

And then you closed the door?

# 1806 A:

Yes.

# 1807 Q:

Was it awkward trying to carry these items without a bag?

# 1808 A:

Yeah. I had a full load of items. I think I probably pushed the door shut with my hip.

# 1809 Q:

What did you then do?

# 1810 A:

I walked to the kitchen nook.

# 1811 Q:

Now, did you walk at a brisk pace?

# 1812 A:

Yes.

# 1813 Q:

And you walked directly to the kitchen door to his home. Right?

# 1814 A:

Yes.

# 1815 Q:

Now, you didn't have a key.

# 1816 A:

No.

# 1817 Q:

And the only way you could have opened that door is if he opened it. Right?

# 1818 A:

Yes.

# 1819 Q:

Now, when you walked to that kitchen door, how many feet from the Bentley was that door?

# 1820 A:

The Bentley would be--

# 1821 Q:

Referring to Exhibit 7, the Bentley is in this little alcove (Indicating). Right?

# 1822 A:

Right.

# 1823 Q:

Where is the door to the kitchen?

# 1824 A:

The door to the kitchen is right here (Indicating).

# 1825 Q:

Between the entrance door and the garage. Right?

# 1826 A:

Correct.

# 1827 Q:

How many feet is that, approximately?

# 1828 A:

It's about 15 feet.

# 1829 Q:

Could it be more than 15?

# 1830 A:

15 to 20.

# 1831 Q:

Okay. When you got to the door, was it your expectation that you were going to be going inside the door into the house?

# 1832 A:

Yes.

# 1833 Q:

And it was your expectation that he would be with you to let you in. Right?

# 1834 A:

Yes.

# 1835 Q:

And was it your expectation when you got to the door that he would be right behind you?

# 1836 A:

Yes.

# 1837 Q:

And was he right behind you when you got to the door?

# 1838 A:

No.

# 1839 Q:

And how do you know?

# 1840 A:

Because I was at the door at the nook, and I thought he was behind me, so I looked and I saw him at the door of the car.

# 1841 Q:

So were you surprised when you didn't see him behind you?

# 1842 A:

Yes.

# 1843 Q:

And were you surprised when you saw him at the door of the Bentley?

# 1844 A:

Yes.

# 1845 Q:

Was he inside the Bentley or outside the Bentley?

# 1846 A:

Outside.

# 1847 Q:

Was he standing up?

# 1848 A:

Yes.

# 1849 Q:

Was he scooping lettuce into a bag?

# 1850 A:

No.

# 1851 Q:

Was he cleaning the floor of his Bentley?

# 1852 A:

No.

# 1853 Q:

Was he cleaning anything?

# 1854 A:

No.

# 1855 Q:

He was just standing up.

# 1856 A:

Standing up.

# 1857 Q:

What did he wear on this trip to McDonald's?

# 1858 A:

I remember it being the same black suit from the trip from the jacuzzi door and the second time, that same outfit.

# 1859 Q:

Do you know for a fact what he was wearing on his feet?

# 1860 A:

I do not.

# 1861 Q:

Do you know what he was wearing?

# 1862 A:

No, I don't.

# 1863 Q:

No recollection of the shoes at this time.

# 1864 A:

No.

# 1865 Q:

Now, when you walked into--when you walked to the door of the kitchen and surprised that he wasn't behind you and surprised to see him at the Bentley door--

# 1866 PHILLIP BAKER:

Objection. Mischaracterizes his testimony.

# 1867

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1868 Q:

--what did you then do?

# 1869 A:

Well, I figured that he was going to be behind me at the door because I knew there was a flight coming up, and I looked--I thought we were going into the house together, so I looked and I saw that he wasn't there and I went, "Okay." I was like, "I shouldn't be here. I should go to my room." So I just turned around and went "Going to my room."

# 1870 Q:

You made a motion to him, "I am going to my room"?

# 1871 A:

Well, I had my food. I went, "Going to the room. I'm going to the room."

# 1872 Q:

You were holding the food with two hands?

# 1873 A:

Yeah.

# 1874 Q:

And you turned to him and said, "I'm"--

# 1875 A:

I looked at him, and he was still at the door of the car, and I said "Okay," like I wasn't supposed to be going to that door, so I went, "I'll go to my room."

# 1876 Q:

Did he say anything to you?

# 1877 A:

No.

# 1878 Q:

Did he say. "Good-bye, Kato"?

# 1879 A:

No.

# 1880 Q:

"Good night, Kato"?

# 1881 A:

No.

# 1882 Q:

"Glad you could join me for dinner"?

# 1883 A:

No.

# 1884 Q:

"Thanks for coming with me"?

# 1885 A:

No.

# 1886 Q:

Did he say anything else?

# 1887 A:

No .

# 1888 Q:

Did he say anything to you?

# 1889 A:

That was it.

# 1890 Q:

Nothing. Was he just standing there?

# 1891 A:

Yes

# 1892 Q:

What was he doing?

# 1893 A:

He was just standing there.

# 1894 Q:

Was he looking at you?

# 1895 A:

Looking at me when I was at the door of the nook and then I--when I said "Bye," that was-- "I'm going to my room," that was it, so--

# 1896 Q:

So when you last saw Mr. Simpson--

# 1897 PHILLIP BAKER:

You cut him off.

# 1898

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1899 Q:

Excuse me. Had you finished your answer?

# 1900 A:

Yes.

# 1901 Q:

When you last saw Mr. Simpson as you headed on towards your room, he was standing near the Bentley. Is that right?

# 1902 A:

At the door of the Bentley.

# 1903 Q:

And you did not see him take a walk in the direction of the house. Is that right?

# 1904 A:

Correct.

# 1905 Q:

You did not even see him take a step in that direction. Is that right?

# 1906 A:

Correct.

# 1907 Q:

Nor did he say anything to you to indicate he was going in the house. Right?

# 1908 A:

Correct.

# 1909 Q:

One reason that stands out in your mind is that you were surprised he wasn't right behind you when you went to the door of his house. Is that right?

# 1910 A:

Yes.

# 1911 PHILLIP BAKER:

Objection. Leading.

# 1912 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Excuse me.

# 1913 KATO KAELIN:

Yes, I was figuring he was going in the house, I thought he was behind me, because I was walking fast and I didn't even realize it, so that's when I looked and I was surprised that he was at the door of the car.

# 1914

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1915 Q:

Okay, Now--

# 1916 A:

That's when I went to my room.

# 1917 Q:

When you went to your room, you then went by the entrance to the kitchen--excuse me.

# 1918 A:

Kitchen there (Indicating).

# 1919 Q:

Yeah, right here (Indicating). And you walked on the driveway past the entranceway of the house. Right?

# 1920 A:

Yes.

# 1921 Q:

And then onto that path. Right?

# 1922 A:

Yes.

# 1923 Q:

Now, when you walked past this entranceway, did you see any golf clubs there?

# 1924 A:

I don't remember seeing any golf clubs.

# 1925 Q:

Did you see anything there?

# 1926 A:

No.

# 1927 Q:

And then you walked down the path and into--around the house and into your room. Right?

# 1928 A:

Correct.

# 1929 Q:

And then you put your stuff down? What did you do?

# 1930 A:

I think the first thing I did, I did put my stuff, I started eating, but I think I called Tom back and was eating and just said. "Hey, just went to McDonald's and"--

# 1931 Q:

That call is at 9:37 p.m.

# 1932 A:

Yes.

# 1933 Q:

And it took you maybe four or five minutes to get out of the Bentley and do the walk to your house.

# 1934 A:

Yeah.

# 1935 PHILLIP BAKER:

Objection. Leading.

# 1936 KATO KAELIN:

It was around that time, yeah.

# 1937

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1938 Q:

About how long?

# 1939 A:

From the time we got back, in that three to four minutes, and I went right to my room, so I imagine I called Tom immediately.

# 1940 Q:

When you went into your room, did you see any lights go on in the Rockingham residence?

# 1941 A:

No.

# 1942 Q:

Did you hear any sounds in the Rockingham residence?

# 1943 Q:

No.

# 1944 Q:

Did you have any indication or notion that Mr. Simpson was in the residence?

# 1945 A:

No.

# 1946 Q:

Did he yell "Kato" again to you for the rest of that evening?

# 1947 Q:

No.

# 1948 Q:

Did he come to your room again?

# 1949 A:

No.

# 1950 Q:

Did he come to your room and give you change?

# 1951 A:

No.

# 1952 Q:

Pay back the $5 or the S20?

# 1953 A:

No.

# 1954 Q:

When he went to McDonald's, did he break change for the hundred dollar bills that he had?

# 1955 A:

No.

# 1956 Q:

Did he offer to repay you the 20 at that point?

# 1957 A:

No.

# 1958 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Okay, we can break now.

# 1959 PHILLIP BAKER:

Okay.

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 12:14. (At the hour of 12:14 p.m., a luncheon recess was taken, the deposition to resume at 1:14 p.m.) (At the hour of 1:22 p.m., the deposition of BRIAN KAELIN was resumed at the same place, the same persons being present, with the exception of Arthur Groman and Fredric Goldman.)

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the record now, and the time is approximately 1:22.

# 1960

EXAMINATION (Resumed)

# 1961

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1962 Q:

Okay, we are back from lunch now, Mr. Kaelin. I think I asked you this before, but let me just go back to it for a minute; make sure I understand your answer. What was the amount of time between the visit Mr. Simpson made to your room about the jacuzzi and then the subsequent visit about skycap change?

# 1963 PHILLIP BAKER:

Asked and answered.

# 1964

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1965 Q:

You may answer.

# 1966 A:

I had thought that it was happening within a one-to-five-minute period, so it happened in between that time. It seemed pretty quick that he came back.

# 1967 Q:

I see. And the first time that he came, you never got off the phone to talk to him. Right?

# 1968 A:

I think I might have put the phone on the bed, but I did talk to him. There was communication with him. But it was about the jacuzzi. So it could have been, you know, putting the phone on the bed and then going towards the door to talk.

# 1969 Q:

Extremely brief communication?

# 1970 A:

It was--the dialogue was about the jacuzzi jets and that he said he had turned them--I thought I turned them off, but he said he had turned them off, and then walking back to the room and saying about the cookout, "Get" --"Call Susan back for the cookout."

# 1971 Q:

Did you believe that you had turned the jacuzzi jets off?

# 1972 A:

I thought I did.

# 1973 Q:

Okay. When you went back to your room, what did you do? You called Tom O'Brian, and then what did you do after that?

# 1974 A:

Are we going from when I went back to my room from McDonald's?

# 1975 Q:

Yes.

# 1976 A:

I went to call Tom back.

# 1977 Q:

Right.

# 1978 A:

And I called him, and I think I was eating my food while I was on the phone with him.

# 1979 Q:

Yeah.

# 1980 A:

And we were just having casual conversation. Said, "Hey, I just went to McDonald's with O.J.," and we kinda laughed.

# 1981 Q:

And then what did you do?

# 1982 A:

I think I hung up with Tom, and I was gonna do this typing. One of the things that just comes to my mind now, part of the conversation also in McDonald's was that I mentioned about using a typewriter that was in the office; that now it just came back to my memory, so that's why I'm bringing it back up. I had said in the car drive, "Is it okay to use the typewriter?" And that typewriter is the one that after I talked to Tom, I was going to type up resumes. So there was an IBM electric typewriter in that office area, and I tried to make it work, and it wasn't working.

# 1983 Q:

You told Mr. Simpson that after McDonald's, that you would be typing resumes in your room, in that office area off your room?

# 1984 A:

I told him on the drive, the McDonald's drive.

# 1985 Q:

That?

# 1986 A:

If it would be okay to use that typewriter. And he had said, "It was Nicole's typewriter. Go ahead."

# 1987 Q:

Did you tell him when you were going to use the typewriter?

# 1988 A:

I didn't give a time, no, but if it was okay to use it. I knew it was in the office, because I thought I would type up resumes.

# 1989 Q:

Okay. Go back to your room then. You were saying?

# 1990 A:

I hung up with Tom, and I think, by trying to make the typewriter work, I figured out that it wasn't working, so I said, "Okay, might as well call Rachel." It was just a friend that I called.

# 1991 Q:

What is her last name?

# 1992 A:

Rachel Ferrara.

# 1993 Q:

Was she your girlfriend at the time?

# 1994 A:

It wasn't my girlfriend, but we had gone out a few times, but it wasn't a set girlfriend at all.

# 1995 Q:

You called Rachel?

# 1996 A:

I called Rachel and said, "Oh, you know, I was trying to type these resumes" and I was explaining to her, you know, how this typewriter wasn't working, and I was putting into the outlets: and while she was on the phone I said, "Watch." I was explaining to her, shouting to her, going, "See, I'm trying it here and it's not working, and it's not working here." And there were a few outlets I was trying, and I'd make I joke about it and go back on the phone with her.

# 1997 Q:

You had laid the phone down--

# 1998 A:

Yeah.

# 1999 Q:

--as far as it could go?

# 2000 A:

I was kind of pulling it, and it couldn't go any further, and when I saw it couldn't go any further, I kinda put it down.

# 2001 Q:

It wasn't a cordless phone.

# 2002 A:

No.

# 2003 Q:

And then you were sort of yelling into the phone?

# 2004 A:

Right.

# 2005 Q:

From wherever you were. Right?

# 2006 A:

Right.

# 2007 Q:

Trying to find an outlet?

# 2008 A:

Yeah. And, you know--

# 2009 Q:

Acting kind of goofy. Right?

# 2010 A:

Yes.

# 2011 Q:

Okay. And then--

# 2012 A:

You said that too convincing.

# 2013 PHILLIP BAKER:

I'd object on leading grounds, but I've never heard that question before.

# 2014

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2015 Q:

Now, had you seen Rachel Ferrara previous that day?

# 2016 A:

No.

# 2017 Q:

Had you seen her the night before?

# 2018 A:

No.

# 2019 Q:

What were you doing the night before, on Saturday?

# 2020 A:

I believe the night before, on Saturday night, I think I was probably at a bar/restaurant called Rebecca's, and I probably went with a buddy of mine. Dan, and just hung out there.

# 2021 Q:

And not with Rachel, though. Right?

# 2022 A:

No, no. It was just buddies and--

# 2023 Q:

Who is Dan?

# 2024 A:

Dan would be a friend of mine. Dan Frisch, who was a buddy of mine, who I think I went---we used to go there together. We used to hang out there.

# 2025 Q:

Now getting back to this evening of June 12 in your room with Rachel on the line, was that a long telephone call?

# 2026 A:

Yes. There was--there was quite a few phone calls to Rachel that night, but the one that was towards the 10:00 o'clock hour, which I think it was, was the conversation that ended up going pretty much throughout the entire night with the interruptions.

# 2027 Q:

Now, Rachel--where did Rachel live?

# 2028 A:

She lived in Palms.

# 2029 Q:

So that was a local call. Right?

# 2030 A:

Yeah. it was a (310) call.

# 2031 Q:

Did you at any time while you were talking to Rachel on the phone hear Mr. Simpson?

# 2032 A:

# 2033 Q:

Did you see him?

# 2034 A:

No.

# 2035 Q:

Did he call you?

# 2036 A:

# 2037 Q:

On the phone. This is before you went outside.

# 2038 A:

Okay. No.

# 2039 Q:

Did you see anyone?

# 2040 A:

No.

# 2041 Q:

Did you know whether he was home?

# 2042 A:

No.

# 2043 Q:

Did you know where he had gone when you had last seen him standing at the Bentley?

# 2044 A:

No. That's the last I saw: At the Bentley

# 2045 Q:

Did you know--Could you see if any lights were on in the house from where your room was?

# 2046 A:

I could probably tell. I thought the bedroom light was on--

# 2047 Q:

Upstairs?

# 2048 A:

In the upstairs.

# 2049 Q:

So you're on this pretty long phone call with Rachel.

# 2050 A:

Correct

# 2051 Q:

And then did anything happen?

# 2052 A:

Yeah. Somewhere in the phone call, I was up against my bed, my back to it--

# 2053 Q:

Your back against the wall?

# 2054 A:

Towards the wall of my--of the bed, talking to her--

# 2055 Q:

Right.

# 2056 A:

--and that there was a noise, and the noise was a noise that moved the picture, and I said, "Did we have an earthquake?" And the noise was as if a body hit the back of a wall, and the picture moved, and it was like a thickness--a thick noise that moved it, and it was --I don't know if I can stand up or not. but--

# 2057 MICHAEL PLOTKIN:

Stand up.

# 2058 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Can the video follow Mr. Kaelin?

# 2059 Q:

Go ahead. Keep your voice up.

# 2060 A:

So I thought it was something like a (Sound), like in that order, a (Sound), and it moved the picture on my wall. And the picture on the wall--I said to Rachel immediately, "Did we just have an earthquake?" And she goes, "No." I said, "This noise I just heard, my picture moved next to the bed." I said. "It's so weird that this thing"--you know, I was trying to convince myself earthquake, but I started thinking there was something back there or someone back there, and that was--because it moved the picture, and then I got scared.

# 2061 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Rod, did you get that? Did you get the sound?

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: (Nods head.)

# 2062 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Okay.

# 2063 Q:

When you demonstrated the noise against the wall, you had to keep your microphone on the table and it didn't reach, so I just was curious if the sound got picked up.

# 2064 A:

Now, this sound, this noise that you heard as though a body was falling against the outside of the wall, did this frighten you?

# 2065 A:

Yes.

# 2066 PHILLIP BAKER:

Mischaracterizes.

# 2067

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2068 Q:

Was it kind of a violent shaking?

# 2069 A:

It was in a shaky--the picture moved, so it was a noise that it definitely got my attention, and I felt there was something back--someone back there. It was powerful enough to move the picture. That's what caused me to say about the earthquake. In my head I think I was realizing it wasn't an earthquake, but the belief that Rachel might say, "Yeah, we just had," kind of thing, but she didn't and...

# 2070 Q:

You intellectually concluded it was not an earthquake at that point. Right?

# 2071 A:

Yes.

# 2072 Q:

Amond--And you also saw that there was nothing else in the room on the other side of that wall that moved. Right?

# 2073 A:

Correct.

# 2074 Q:

And the ground wasn't moving underneath you. Right?

# 2075 A:

No. My back was against that. That's where I felt the vibrating, so I didn't--that's what caused it more me asking the question about the earthquake to her.

# 2076 Q:

I see. But after you quickly ruled out earthquake, you then believed there was someone on the other side of that wall. Is that right?

# 2077 A:

Yes.

# 2078 Q:

And you decided that for your own safety, you'd better go check?

# 2079 A:

Yes.

# 2080 Q:

Now let's take a look at some photographs of your room. I am going to mark as the next exhibit in order, Exhibit 82, a picture of your room with the door leading to the bathroom, I believe, and then a picture of the other side of your room. Well, actually I'm not sure.

# 2081 A:

This would be the office, not the bathroom (Indicating).

# 2082 Q:

Let me start all over again, okay, because I messed that up. Exhibit 82 will be a picture of your room that shows the door leading to the office, and Exhibit 83 will be a picture of your room that shows the other side of the room with the door leading to the bathroom. Okay? 82 and 83. (Plaintiffs' Exhibits 82 and 83 were marked for identification by the reporter and are attached hereto.)

# 2083 MICHAEL PLOTKIN:

We have a copy of what I believe is 82. Can we have 83?

# 2084 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Let Mr. Kaelin work off the originals.

# 2085 Q:

Looking at Exhibit 82, does that show your room at the time?

# 2086 A:

Yes.

# 2087 Q:

Is that the way it looked that evening of June 12?

# 2088 A:

Yeah.

# 2089 Q:

And that door leads to where?

# 2090 A:

That door would lead into the office, and these stairs at the office (Indicating) would lead into the house, the main house.

# 2091 Q:

And is there another door on the other side of that office that leads to the main house?

# 2092 A:

Yes.

# 2093 Q:

And that's the door that remains locked. Right?

# 2094 A:

Yes.

# 2095 Q:

Now, there is a picture--there is a bed against the wall. Right?

# 2096 A:

Correct.

# 2097 Q:

And it has like a white headboard?

# 2098 A:

Yes.

# 2099 Q:

Is that what that color is?

# 2100 A:

Yeah, it's like egg white.

# 2101 Q:

Egg white. Okay. And you were laying on that bed. Right?

# 2102 A:

Yes.

# 2103 Q:

And the phone is on the left side. Correct?

# 2104 A:

Yes. Yes, it is.

# 2105 Q:

On the side closest to the picture. Right?

# 2106 A:

Yes.

# 2107 Q:

And that's where it was that night.

# 2108 A:

Yes. That--

# 2109 Q:

And were you lying closer to the left side of the room?

# 2110 PHILLIP BAKER:

Did you want to finish your answer on the phone?

# 2111 KATO KAELIN:

Yeah. My phone was on the left, but it might have been--that's not my phone in that picture. I believe. My phone was a different phone. But I was on the left talking. The phone would normally be propped up on that table.

# 2112

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2113 Q:

What I am trying to find out is: Because, the phone was normally propped up on that table, would you have been more situated on the left side of the bed than the right side?

# 2114 A:

Yes. Yes, I would.

# 2115 Q:

And your back was against the headboard?

# 2116 A:

Correct.

# 2117 Q:

On the left side of the bed with your feet propped up?

# 2118 A:

Yeah. My feet I think were somewhat hanging off this side (Indicating)--

# 2119 Q:

The left side?

# 2120 A:

--propped up. Yeah. I wasn't putting my feet so much on the quilt.

# 2121 Q:

And was your head against the headboard or against the wall above the headboard?

# 2122 A:

On the headboard.

# 2123 Q:

Okay. Now, is this a pretty thick exterior wall?

# 2124 A:

Yes.

# 2125 Q:

Do you know what it's made out of?

# 2126 A:

The wall right here (Indicating)?

# 2127 Q:

Yeah.

# 2128 A:

That's wood.

# 2129 Q:

Do you know if there is any concrete on the other side?

# 2130 A:

I believe it's concrete on the other side.

# 2131 Q:

Okay. And then there is a picture right above the night stand where the telephone is. Right?

# 2132 A:

Yes, there is.

# 2133 Q:

And the picture depicted in Exhibit 82 is of what? Can you tell?

# 2134 A:

You mean what is it a picture of?

# 2135 Q:

Yeah.

# 2136 A:

I can't tell from that shot what it is. It's a picture in a frame.

# 2137 Q:

Same picture?

# 2138 A:

Yeah, it looks like the exact same picture.

# 2139 Q:

Now, to the right of the bed is a lamp, right, and you can see that in Exhibit 83. Correct?

# 2140 A:

Correct.

# 2141 Q:

And to the right of the lamp is an air conditioner. Right?

# 2142 A:

Yes.

# 2143 Q:

So the air conditioner is actually located on the opposite side of the bed from where the picture is. Right?

# 2144 A:

Yes.

# 2145 Q:

And it's about how many feet between the air conditioner and the picture? What's your best estimate?

# 2146 A:

Looks like about eight feet.

# 2147 Q:

And the air conditioner is what, at eye level?

# 2148 A:

Yeah.

# 2149 Q:

And can you describe to us, by looking at exhibits 82 and 83, where that loud sound was that you heard on the wall?

# 2150 A:

The loud sound I heard on the wall would be more right here (Indicating). It happened right about there--

# 2151 Q:

The center of the bed?

# 2152 A:

Towards the center, the beginning of it, and it kinda finished up maybe a foot and a half more there (Indicating) then.

# 2153 Q:

Hold on. Let me just--let's try this again. I want to be real precise here.

# 2154 A:

Okay.

# 2155 Q:

You think that you first heard this noise around the center of the headboard?

# 2156 A:

Right.

# 2157 Q:

And then it kind of migrated towards the left?

# 2158 A:

On the third one . The noises were boom, boom, boom, like that, and the third one was probably a foot off from the original. It seemed like it was hitting a patter, like a boom, boom, boom.

# 2159 Q:

With the noise going in what direction? Air conditioner to phone? Air conditioner to the picture?

# 2160 A:

Yeah, air conditioner to the picture.

# 2161 Q:

And did the noise--could you tell where on the wall the noise appeared to sound?

# 2162 A:

Yeah. It was probably right where that arrow would be pointing behind there. It would be--

# 2163 Q:

What height?

# 2164 A:

Oh, okay. It would be right--it's about five feet.

# 2165 Q:

You tell me.

# 2166 A:

It would be--So if my back is up against the headboard, I can just point to you where I heard the noise.

# 2167 Q:

Yeah.

# 2168 A:

It would be right about there (Indicating).

# 2169 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

The witness is pointing to near the top of the headboard in sort of the center, a little to the left of center.

# 2170 Q:

Is that right?

# 2171 A:

Yeah. Yes, it is.

# 2172 Q:

On the air conditioning side.

# 2173 (Nods head.)

# 2174 Q:

Now, you said the picture moved. Okay?

# 2175 A:

Yes.

# 2176 Q:

How many--how much did the picture move?

# 2177 A:

It moved at least six inches. It tilted completely.

# 2178 Q:

Tilted completely.

# 2179 A:

Yes, the picture tilted.

# 2180 Q:

In what direction did it tilt?

# 2181 A:

It tilted--the picture would have gone that way (Indicating).

# 2182 Q:

So the bottom part of the picture, did it go towards the bed or away from the bed?

# 2183 A:

My recollection it was away from the bed. That part went towards the bed (Indicating).

# 2184 Q:

The top went towards and the bottom went away. After you asked Rachel about the earthquake and she said no, what did you then do?

# 2185 A:

I remember part of my dialogue was telling her that I was going to investigate it, and I knew that there was a pen flashlight in my drawer next to the bed.

# 2186 Q:

Yeah.

# 2187 A:

And in talking to her, I had said. "I'm going to go and check on that noise. And she was going, "No. Come over. Come over." I said, "No. I'm going to check on this noise," and then I said, "But if I don't call you back in 10 minutes, start to worry. Call the police." It was some joke--in a joking manner I said It.

# 2188 Q:

Now, you were joking with her. Right?

# 2189 A:

I was joking, but it was a nervous joke, and then she said, "Oh, no, I'm going to start to worry now."

# 2190 Q:

But you were genuinely frightened?

# 2191 PHILLIP BAKER:

Objection, leading.

# 2192 KATO KAELIN:

Yeah, I was afraid to go back, but I was gonna do it.

# 2193 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Q: Were you or were you not afraid?

# 2194 A:

I was afraid but playing the role that I wasn't afraid, but it--the real feeling inside was I was afraid.

# 2195 Q:

Okay. And where did you get a flashlight?

# 2196 A:

In the drawer right here (Indicating).

# 2197 Q:

What kind of flashlight was it?

# 2198 A:

It was a small pen light.

# 2199 Q:

For the record, you pointed to that night stand where the telephone is.

# 2200 A:

In the top drawer.

# 2201 Q:

You got a little pen light?

# 2202 A:

Yes.

# 2203 Q:

Pretty dim light?

# 2204 A:

Yes.

# 2205 Q:

Okay. What did you then do?

# 2206 A:

Got off--I hung up the phone--

# 2207 Q:

Yeah.

# 2208 A:

--and then I took the pen light and headed back up out the door--

# 2209 Q:

Out the door.

# 2210 A:

--to the pathway, past Ashford. I was going to go behind the garage and head down there.

# 2211 Q:

Now, when you came up to--when you got out of your door and you went up the stairs, you were intending to go to the location behind your room. Is that right?

# 2212 A:

Correct.

# 2213 Q:

That's where you heard the noise, and that's where you were going to investigate. Right?

# 2214 A:

Correct.

# 2215 Q:

Now, was there another way of getting there instead of going around the house, out to the Ashford side and coming back around?

# 2216 A:

I could have gone--Yes, there is.

# 2217 Q:

How could you have done that?

# 2218 A:

I could have gone--instead of going up the pathway, I could have gone right.

# 2219 Q:

Past Arnelle's room?

# 2220 A:

Past Arnelle's room.

# 2221 Q:

And then what?

# 2222 A:

And then gone though--past the maid's other room.

# 2223 Q:

Right.

# 2224 A:

And then there is a gate or--wrought iron gate, but there is no door to it.

# 2225 Q:

Right.

# 2226 A:

And you could kinda squeeze in through there, but there was like a lot of trees, a lot of mud. It was a thing that you wouldn't do normally. You would never go--it wasn't a path.

# 2227 Q:

Had you ever gone in that area at nighttime, when it was dark?

# 2228 A:

No, never.

# 2229 Q:

And had you ever gone back in that area during daytime?

# 2230 A:

Yes.

# 2231 Q:

How many times?

# 2232 A:

I did it twice in the same day for Arnelle.

# 2233 Q:

Why?

# 2234 A:

It was I think a Memorial Day party, and she had locked her keys twice in her room during the party and said, "Kato, will you do this for me?" And I didn't even know about it, and she told me about a path that would go back there back behind her room and get into her room.

# 2235 Q:

And you didn't even know about that path.

# 2236 A:

Then I didn't, no.

# 2237 Q:

But she told you about it.

# 2238 A:

Yeah. It wasn't a path. It was just the dirt. It wasn't like a cement path.

# 2239 Q:

She told you could get behind her room--

# 2240 A:

Yeah.

# 2241 Q:

--by going in that way.

# 2242 A:

Correct.

# 2243 Q:

Now, what would it do to get you behind Arnelle's room? How would you then get in her room.

# 2244 A:

You could go through her window, the bathroom window.

# 2245 Q:

I see. And you were able to do that?

# 2246 A:

Uh-huh.

# 2247 Q:

You climbed into the bathroom window?

# 2248 A:

Yes, on the Memorial Day party.

# 2249 Q:

Was the window open?

# 2250 A:

Yeah, it was somewhat open. Her window was a different window with I think no screen on it.

# 2251 Q:

Now, is there --are there any other windows from that window in Arnelle's bathroom?

# 2252 A:

Bathroom.

# 2253 Q:

To the point right behind your bed?

# 2254 A:

There's my bathroom window.

# 2255 Q:

Have you ever gone in that bathroom window?

# 2256 A:

No, never.

# 2257 Q:

Could you physically get in it and out of it?

# 2258 A:

I don't think so. It opens up that way (Indicating), like a slant. I don't think you could get in there.

# 2259 Q:

Okay. So you decided not to go around Arnelle's room because it was dark.

# 2260 A:

Correct.

# 2261 Q:

Were you frightened to go that way?

# 2262 A:

Yeah. A person would never go there like at nighttime. It was like muddy and spider webs, and it was a thing where you kinda--I scraped--

# 2263 Q:

Do you know if it was muddy that night?

# 2264 A:

Not --Well, there's like a --there's a garden but not really a garden. It's just like a patch of mud that's --where a garden should be, but I imagine, yeah, there would be mud there.

# 2265 Q:

Did you see mud that night there?

# 2266 A:

No, I didn't.

# 2267 Q:

Well, let's look at Exhibit 27 again, and right around Arnelle's room you see some trees and shrubs. Right?

# 2268 A:

Yes.

# 2269 Q:

That's the area you're talking about.

# 2270 A:

Yes.

# 2271 Q:

But you went up --down the steps, past the pool, around this path. Right?

# 2272 A:

Correct.

# 2273 Q:

And then you came around this path that heads on near Ashford Street. Right?

# 2274 A:

Yes.

# 2275 Q:

And your intention was to do what?

# 2276 A:

Take the flashlight, go here, back there and (Indicating)--

# 2277 Q:

You are pointing onto the driveway?

# 2278 A:

Back to the driveway.

# 2279 Q:

Go past the entrance to the house?

# 2280 A:

Go past the entrance and go over here to the side of the garage (Indicating)

# 2281 Q:

Go to the garage, and then go--

# 2282 A:

Down the path.

# 2283 Q:

Make a left where the garage is and head in a southerly --in an easterly direction. Right?

# 2284 A:

Correct.

# 2285 Q:

And that would start to take you behind the house.

# 2286 A:

Yes.

# 2287 Q:

And your intention was to walk from that point all the way in an easterly direction until you get behind your room. Right?

# 2288 A:

Yes.

# 2289 Q:

Had you ever done that before?

# 2290 A:

No. There was a guy from the cable company once, I believe, phone company or cable company, that I went back there with a long time ago, and the kids had been back there once or twice before in the daytime, and that was it.

# 2291 Q:

Had you ever gone back there as far as your room?

# 2292 A:

With the kids, yes.

# 2293 Q:

And the kids had gotten back there?

# 2294 A:

Yeah. They can go back there.

# 2295 Q:

And you were going to get them?

# 2296 A:

Yeah. I think it was hide-and-go-seek or something.

# 2297 Q:

Okay. And you went back there once with the cable man.

# 2298 A:

Yes.

# 2299 Q:

Had you ever gone back there--

# 2300 A:

It might have been the phone man or cable man. There's...

# 2301 Q:

When you went back there with the phone man/cable man and the kids, was it in daytime?

# 2302 A:

Yes.

# 2303 Q:

Had you ever gone back there at nighttime?

# 2304 A:

No.

# 2305 Q:

When you walked out of your room past the--Mr. Simpson's residence, as you walked by the pool, did you see him inside?

# 2306 A:

No.

# 2307 Q:

Did you see anything inside?

# 2308 A:

No.

# 2309 Q:

Was it dark? Bottom floor.

# 2310 Q:

Pretty sure it was dark. Best of my recollection, it was dark.

# 2311 Q:

Were you walking briskly?

# 2312 A:

Yes.

# 2313 Q:

And what happened next?

# 2314 A:

So I had gone through my room door up the stairs to the pathway, and when I got to the pathway looked to my right, and I noticed that there was a limo parked out in front at the gates. The gates were not opened. So I looked and I thought, okay, there's a limo there. I thought it was all attended to, and I walked back to the garage, the first gate. There's a--first gate here is broken. You can pick it up manually and lean it against the tree. There's a tree there. So I picked it up, placed it there, and I walked down about five feet and--

# 2315 Q:

Five feet from where?

# 2316 A:

Five feet from that gate, and--

# 2317 Q:

That gate is at the beginning of--

# 2318 A:

At the very beginning, right here (Indicating) at that garage lip.

# 2319 Q:

Okay.

# 2320 A:

And then I walked down just about--and I started going, no, I'll turn back around.

# 2321 Q:

Let me stop you right there: When you went down about five feet, did you go beyond the length of the garage?

# 2322 A:

No.

# 2323 Q:

You went about halfway down the length of the garage.

# 2324 A:

Yes.

# 2325 PHILLIP BAKER:

Objection. Leading.

# 2326

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2327 Q:

Is that about how far you said you went?

# 2328 A:

That's about how far I went.

# 2329 Q:

And then you stopped.

# 2330 A:

Yes.

# 2331 Q:

And why did you stop?

# 2332 A:

I think I was looking with the flashlight kind of like this (Indicating) and going, oh, it's dark. I shouldn't be back here, and turned around, and I just turned around.

# 2333 Q:

Were you frightened?

# 2334 A:

Yes.

# 2335 Q:

And you believed somebody had been back there and might still be back there?

# 2336 A:

Yes. I just had an eerie feeling that night, so it was just adding up.

# 2337 Q:

And you turned around.

# 2338 A:

I turned around.

# 2339 Q:

And did what?

# 2340 A:

So I turned around. put the gate up, and I walked and I noticed the limo guy was still out there. And so when I saw the limo guy still out there, I went, huh, I probably should let him in. So I went to this gate control box (Indicating), and it's a button--

# 2341 Q:

You are pointing to the gate control box inside the Ashford gate?

# 2342 A:

Correct.

# 2343 Q:

What did do you?

# 2344 Q:

So I pressed the box--the button, and the doors opened up on the gate. And Chachi was right there, the dog, and the guy started the car, pulled up, and I saw Chachi crossing. Chachi went in front of the limo and laid down in this one spot that he lays.

# 2345 Q:

Now, the spot where Chachi lays is on the east side of the driveway north of the entranceway. Right?

# 2346 A:

Correct.

# 2347 Q:

On the grass?

# 2348 A:

Yes, it's on the grass.

# 2349 Q:

Okay. And then the limo driver pulled in after Chachi walked by, and he stopped where?

# 2350 A:

He went up to the driveway right here (Indicating) where the two park benches are.

# 2351 Q:

And stopped there?

# 2352 A:

And stopped there.

# 2353 Q:

With his--with the doors on the driver's side of the car facing the entranceway?

# 2354 PHILLIP BAKER:

Objection. Leading.

# 2355

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2356 Q:

Is that what you are pointing to?

# 2357 A:

Yes, right in the front, yes.

# 2358 Q:

Okay. Now go back to the point in time when you came out initially, and you were coming around the pathway to go investigate, and you saw the limousine for the first time. Okay?

# 2359 A:

Okay.

# 2360 Q:

Did you see who was in the limousine?

# 2361 A:

I didn't see.

# 2362 Q:

Did you see that it was a limousine as opposed to a different kind of car?

# 2363 A:

No. I knew it was a limousine.

# 2364 Q:

You could tell?

# 2365 A:

Yes.

# 2366 Q:

Could you tell what color it was?

# 2367 A:

Yes. White.

# 2368 Q:

White.

# 2369 A:

White limousine.

# 2370 Q:

And was the limousine facing--Which direction was the limousine facing?

# 2371 A:

The headlights were facing south, and it was right up against the gate,

# 2372 Q:

Do you know if the parking lights were on or the headlights were on or neither?

# 2373 A:

I think it was dark. It didn't have lights on.

# 2374 Q:

But you saw it was facing in the direction of the house. Right?

# 2375 A:

Yes, it was facing in the direction of the house.

# 2376 Q:

Now, when you saw that car there, having just heard the sounds, were you concerned about what that car was doing there?

# 2377 A:

No. I figured the car was for the airport, and I figured--kind of in my head thought it was kinda late, car's still there, that O.J. must be there. So I thought-that everything was under control, because I never--my phone doesn't let people in and doesn't ring to my room, so I thought everything was kind of under control. And then when I came back from the garage, I went, huh, why is the car still out there, so I went out and I opened the thing.

# 2378 Q:

Now, when you saw that limousine, did you stop and pause for a minute?

# 2379 A:

I don't think so. I think I continued --I think I might have looked at it and just continued on my walk.

# 2380 Q:

Is there any reason why you didn't simply go and let the limousine driver in then and there?

# 2381 A:

Yeah. In my head I was thinking that everything was taken care of because there is a box there that someone can call, and it's all handled from the house, so I thought everything was under control.

# 2382 Q:

Does that limousine --Excuse me. Does that box ring in your room?

# 2383 A:

No.

# 2384 Q:

You know what I'm saying. Does the phone in that box ring in your room?

# 2385 A:

Right, for me to let in cars or people. No.

# 2386 Q:

About how long did it take from the time you first saw that limousine and then went behind the garage and then came back and let the limousine driver in? How long was that interval of time?

# 2387 A:

The interval from when I first came out to the back to letting him in?

# 2388 Q:

When you first came out the path and saw the limousine driver. Starting from that moment in time and continuing walking down the driveway, going around, opening the gate, going down, coming back, coming around and going to the control box.

# 2389 A:

Minute to two minutes.

# 2390 Q:

Couple of minutes?

# 2391 A:

Yeah.

# 2392 Q:

During that period of time you walked by the entrance to the front door twice. Right?

# 2393 A:

Yes.

# 2394 Q:

And did you see golf clubs there?

# 2395 A:

I did.

# 2396 Q:

Which time?

# 2397 A:

I think it was when I came back the second time. Golf clubs. I don't --they could have been there when I first walked, but I can't recollect, and now I think that when I came back, I think there's golf clubs there. So--

# 2398 Q:

You remembered seeing the golf clubs for the first time on the way back from the garage.

# 2399 A:

Yes.

# 2400 Q:

And were the outside coach lights on?

# 2401 A:

Yeah, the little lights that were out there, yes.

# 2402 Q:

You saw those coach lights on when you came back from the garage. Right?

# 2403 A:

Yeah. They light up around the house.

# 2404 Q:

No. I mean right where the doorway is, the entranceway.

# 2405 A:

Yes, I believe so.

# 2406 Q:

Are there lights outside that light up this entranceway?

# 2407 A:

Yes.

# 2408 Q:

And when you came back from the garage from investigating the first time, you believe you saw the golf clubs. Where were the golf clubs?

# 2409 A:

Golf clubs were laid down right in front before the --it's on the pavement, but not on the driveway. It would be right here (Indicating), right by the Y of the driveway.

# 2410 Q:

In the area between the two benches?

# 2411 A:

Yes.

# 2412 Q:

And you think you saw the lights on then?

# 2413 A:

Yes.

# 2414 Q:

And then you went and saw the limo was still there, and you go to the control box and press the box, and he comes in?

# 2415 A:

Correct.

# 2416 Q:

Now, is that the first time that you had ever let the limousine in?

# 2417 A:

Yes.

# 2418 Q:

At the times you had lived there, you had never once buzzed the limousine driver in. Is that right?

# 2419 Q:

Correct.

# 2420 Q:

Is that the first time at night that you had ever gone back to investigate noises?

# 2421 A:

Yes. First time I'd ever been back there at night, ever.

# 2422 Q:

First time ever that you had gone to investigate noises on the property at night?

# 2423 A:

Yes.

# 2424 Q:

First time ever that you had taken a flashlight at night to go someplace?

# 2425 A:

Yes.

# 2426 Q:

On the property, I mean.

# 2427 A:

Yes.

# 2428 Q:

When you came out this path and saw the limousine, did you see Mr. Simpson at that point?

# 2429 A:

I don't believe so.

# 2430 Q:

By the time --Withdrawn. When you went to check behind the garage for the first time, did you see Mr. Simpson at that point in time?

# 2431 A:

No.

# 2432 Q:

When you went back to let in the limousine driver, had you seen--did you see Mr. Simpson as of that point in time?

# 2433 A:

No.

# 2434 Q:

When the limousine came in and parked and got out--when the limousine came and parked, the limousine driver got out. Right?

# 2435 A:

Yes.

# 2436 Q:

What did you then do?

# 2437 A:

The driver got out of the car--

# 2438 Q:

Yeah.

# 2439 A:

--and I believe I mentioned to him a few things, and the order I'll try to do the best I can: I asked if we had this earthquake. I heard this noise, and I asked him, and he said no, that he was coming up from Redondo Beach and he wasn't aware of it. And then I said, "Did O.J. oversleep?" And I think he had said no, that he just talked to him. Sleep came up, but I think the driver said also that O.J. said he overslept. But I told him about the noise, and I said, "I'm going to investigate this noise," and when I was saying that to him, I start walking back towards the garage area. And I said to Chachi, the dog, I said, "Chachi, come with me." and he just laid there, and I commented to the driver, I said, "Isn't that a great watchdog?" And--

# 2440 Q:

Jokingly.

# 2441 A:

Jokingly, right. So then I went back there, and I went and picked up the gate again, went back. There is a second gate. I made it up to that second gate, but I didn't open the gate. I stayed right there and kinda went like this (Indicating).

# 2442 Q:

Did you go beyond the length of the garage this time?

# 2443 A:

I believe no. I believe the gate ends right around here (Indicating). There is a second gate at the house that doesn't go very far.

# 2444 Q:

Right around near the end of the garage?

# 2445 A:

Yes.

# 2446 Q:

So you were still quite a ways from where you heard the sound.

# 2447 A:

Yes.

# 2448 Q:

And you knew you were still quite a ways. Right?

# 2449 A:

Yes.

# 2450 PHILLIP BAKER:

Objection. Leading.

# 2451

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2452 Q:

But you did not go back. Why?

# 2453 A:

Well, I figured there is a limo driver there. I was more nervy to go down a little bit further down the gate. I had more nerve, and I figured, okay, this is far enough. This flashlight's not really working. I'm not gonna chance it anymore, so I came back.

# 2454 Q:

Did seeing the limo driver and having that little human contact give you some more courage?

# 2455 A:

Yes.

# 2456 Q:

And for that reason you went down a little farther.

# 2457 A:

Yes.

# 2458 Q:

But still could not go down the rest of the way.

# 2459 A:

Correct.

# 2460 Q:

Because you were?

# 2461 A:

Scared.

# 2462 Q:

Scared. And when you came back to the limousine--Let me back up for a second. When the limo driver got out of the car did you introduce yourself?

# 2463 A:

Yes.

# 2464 Q:

And--

# 2465 A:

I said, "I'm Kato," and I believe he said his name, because I think I shook his hand.

# 2466 Q:

Why did you say something about an earthquake if you had intellectually ruled out earthquake?

# 2467 A:

You know. I just said it to him to reassure myself. I don't know. It was just the part of the thing I just said to him. I said, "Hey, did we have this earthquake? Because I felt this thing." I even went to explain about this picture moving. "It's the weirdest thing. You know, hey, this picture in my room moving around. Well, whatever, I'm going to go back to this here." So I explained to him where I was going. I guess in case something ever happened to me, I was going back there, tell him. So I went back and...

# 2468 Q:

Did you ask him for a flashlight?

# 2469 A:

At one point I did, yes.

# 2470 Q:

Did--The reason--Did you put any luggage in the car before you went back there?

# 2471 A:

Yes.

# 2472 Q:

What did you do in that regard?

# 2473 A:

I saw that the golf clubs were in an area where they normally would be like the luggage--

# 2474 Q:

Yeah.

# 2475 A:

--for a trip, so I thought I'll pick it up. I said, "I'll put these in the trunk," and he popped the trunk, and I put them in the trunk.

# 2476 Q:

Now, where the golf clubs were located was where you said you believed you had seen the clubs: In between the two benches on the ground.

# 2477 A:

Right.

# 2478 Q:

And you picked up the golf club bag?

# 2479 A:

The golf club bag.

# 2480 Q:

Now, was it a bag with clubs sticking out, or was it all in a--

# 2481 A:

It was, you know, like an airline--

# 2482 Q:

Cover bag?

# 2483 A:

Cover bag.

# 2484 Q:

You picked up the whole thing, and you put it in the trunk.

# 2485 A:

Yes.

# 2486 Q:

Now, when you picked up that golf cover bag, did you see any other luggage there at that time?

# 2487 A:

No. That was it. Just the golf bag.

# 2488 Q:

And if there had been other luggage there, would you have also picked that up?

# 2489 A:

Yeah. I would have assumed that that's what it was there for; put it in there. I thought the limo driver was going to do it, so I just put it in myself.

# 2490 Q:

Now, after you put that golf bag into the limousine, what did you then do?

# 2491 A:

Okay. Now, I put the golf bag in there, and I asked him if we had--if he had a flashlight, and I was going to do it again to look for--even further down there with a better flashlight. So he had looked in his glove box, and he said, "No, I don't have a flashlight."

# 2492 Q:

And so what did you do?

# 2493 A:

Well, at some point O.J. was outside .

# 2494 Q:

Now, was O.J.--And then you saw him. Right?

# 2495 A:

And then I saw him.

# 2496 Q:

Did you see O.J. before you went to make the second trip around the garage, or after?

# 2497 A:

I saw it--I saw it the first trip, and then I think it was the--in my head, it was a trip--I've already made two trips, but I thought there was a part where I had seen him. And then I noticed a bag by the Bentley, a knapsack bag. But I had the dialogue of telling O.J., "I heard this noise, and the driver doesn't have a flashlight and my flashlight is just terrible. Do we have a better a flashlight?" And--Go on?

# 2498 Q:

Well, let me stop you there. Is it your recollection that you first saw O.J. Simpson that evening during this period of time after you made the second trip behind the garage?

# 2499 A:

The best of my recollection is the second time--after the second time.

# 2500 Q:

Now, when you came back from your aborted attempt to investigate a second time and returned to the limousine, is that when you first saw Mr. Simpson?

# 2501 A:

Say it again.

# 2502 Q:

When you came back from investigating the second time and returned directly--

# 2503 A:

Yes.

# 2504 Q:

--to the limousine, is that when you first saw Mr. Simpson?

# 2505 A:

Best of my recollection, it is.

# 2506 Q:

And what was he doing at that moment in time when you saw him?

# 2507 A:

I thought I saw him going, into the house, and that was it, and then I had questioned him about the noise.

# 2508 Q:

Now, if he was going into the house, how did you question him?

# 2509 A:

I just got him outside before he went in the house and said to him--

# 2510 Q:

He was about to go into the house.

# 2511 A:

Yeah. I don't know if he was putting luggage into the car or what. It was just there, and I started talking to him.

# 2512 Q:

What did you say to him?

# 2513 A:

"Hey, O.J., I heard this noise back there. It was really weird. It moved my picture," and all that. And was like, you know, "I think maybe somebody's back there."

# 2514 Q:

What did he say?

# 2515 A:

He said. "Oh, we'd better check on it." And I said, "I've got this a flashlight. This is like the only thing I have. Do we have a better flashlight?" He said, "Well, I better check if we have a better flashlight," and then he went into the house.

# 2516 Q:

Now, before he went into the house, did he say anything like, "You go this way and I'll go that way"?

# 2517 A:

Yes. Yeah, that was part of it. He goes, "Well, I'll go that way and you go that way."

# 2518 Q:

Now, when did he say that?

# 2519 A:

Before checking for--that made me say, "Well, we need a better flashlight."

# 2520 Q:

Okay. So give me the conversation again.

# 2521 A:

Okay. So it was. "O.J., I heard this noise back there. It was like it moved my picture, and I think someone's back there." "We better investigate. You go"-- "I'll go that way. You go that way" (Indicating).

# 2522 Q:

Now, you are pointing right now.

# 2523 A:

He--okay.

# 2524 Q:

Which direction did O.J. indicate that you should go?

# 2525 A:

Back by the garage area.

# 2526 Q:

Where you had checked.

# 2527 A:

Yes.

# 2528 Q:

And which direction did he point indicating he should go?

# 2529 A:

He was pointing that way (Indicating).

# 2530 Q:

Meaning go back towards around the other side.

# 2531 A:

Yes.

# 2532 PHILLIP BAKER:

Towards Ashford.

# 2533 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Yeah, up towards that path where Ashford is.

# 2534 Q:

Now, did that seem--How did that comment strike you, "You go that way, I'll go that way"?

# 2535 A:

I was--it was a--I didn't expect him to say that, with the flight and that, I was going, "Oh," I was like, he's going to help me check, so--

# 2536 Q:

And--

# 2537 A:

And then I thought, okay, and then that made me go, "Well, we need a better flashlight," but I didn't--I was like...

# 2538 Q:

"We need a better flashlight."

# 2539 A:

Yes.

# 2540 Q:

What did he then say?

# 2541 A:

"I'll go inside and check."

# 2542 Q:

Then what happened?

# 2543 A:

So he ran into the house, and I followed behind him--

# 2544 Q:

Right.

# 2545 A:

--and he went into the kitchen area.

# 2546 Q:

Right.

# 2547 A:

So he is in the kitchen area. I didn't go into the kitchen. I kind of waited by--there is an entranceway by the kitchen.

# 2548 Q:

Right.

# 2549 A:

So I didn't go into the kitchen, but I saw him go into the kitchen, and he got in there and looked and went, "Whoa, it's that time."

# 2550 Q:

He looked where?

# 2551 A:

There is a clock.

# 2552 Q:

Up on the wall.

# 2553 A:

On the wall.

# 2554 Q:

And he said what when he saw that clock?

# 2555 A:

"Is that the right time?" or "My God, is it that late?" or--it was in reference to being late. He goes, "I've got to catch my flight." I said, "Oh, don't miss your flight." And then he walked back out, and I was there and walked out, and then he had mentioned about setting the alarm.

# 2556 Q:

Now, did you actually go in the kitchen with him?

# 2557 A:

No.

# 2558 Q:

Did you go into the kitchen and go to a cupboard and start looking for a flashlight?

# 2559 A:

No, I never made it into the kitchen myself.

# 2560 Q:

You never made it into the kitchen?

# 2561 A:

No, I never walked into the kitchen.

# 2562 Q:

So you were never in the kitchen with him looking for a flashlight.

# 2563 A:

Right. Never.

# 2564 Q:

Did you see him on the counter dabbing blood off his finger?

# 2565 A:

No.

# 2566 Q:

Did you see him bleed at all at that time--

# 2567 A:

No.

# 2568 Q:

--in the kitchen?

# 2569 A:

No.

# 2570 Q:

How long was he in the kitchen from the moment he went in the door that leads to the kitchen until he came back out?

# 2571 A:

15 seconds.

# 2572 Q:

So he was out of your sight for 15 seconds?

# 2573 A:

No, he wasn't out of my sight at all. I was at the doorway of--

# 2574 Q:

What was he doing in the kitchen for 15 seconds?

# 2575 A:

It was kind of--I'm saying from the walk in, looking up, going like this (Indicating) and saying, "Oh, boy it's that time."

# 2576 Q:

So it was a continuous motion?

# 2577 A:

Yeah. There was no looking for the flashlight.

# 2578 Q:

So he didn't stop to do anything in the kitchen?

# 2579 A:

No. We never looked.

# 2580 Q:

Could you see the clock from your vantage point?

# 2581 A:

I think I glanced up at it and I thought it was 11:15, so I could see it if I looked up. I think I did look at the clock.

# 2582 Q:

Now, he then walked past you to go outside?

# 2583 A:

Yeah, walked back out.

# 2584 Q:

So he was rushing?

# 2585 A:

Yeah.

# 2586 Q:

And so he walked right by you and went out the house, out the front door?

# 2587 A:

Yes.

# 2588 Q:

And what did you do?

# 2589 A:

I followed.

# 2590 Q:

Why?

# 2591 A:

I was--he was leaving. I was getting out of the house.

# 2592 Q:

And then what did you do when you followed him out of the house?

# 2593 A:

There was a dialogue of--at the doorway by the foyer to the doorway about, "Kato, set the alarm to the house." And I said, "I don't know the alarm. I don't want to set the alarm code." So he said he would do it

# 2594 Q:

Okay.

# 2595 A:

And then I walked up and I saw that knapsack there, so I started walking toward the knapsack because I thought that was supposed to be packed up, and I started walking to it and O.J. said "No. I'll get it."

# 2596 Q:

Continue.

# 2597 A:

So I just turned back around.

# 2598 Q:

Now, let's talk a little bit about that knapsack. The knapsack was located where?

# 2599 A:

Right here (Indicating) on the--

# 2600 Q:

You are pointing to where the Bentley is parked?

# 2601 A:

Right.

# 2602 Q:

Behind the Bentley?

# 2603 A:

It was at the taillights of the Bentley.

# 2604 Q:

On the ground.

# 2605 A:

On the ground.

# 2606 Q:

About how many feet from the entranceway to the front door is that?

# 2607 A:

25 feet.

# 2608 Q:

Now, when you came outside with Mr. Simpson after he left the kitchen, what made you go to the knapsack?

# 2609 A:

I just thought it was another item that had to be packed.

# 2610 Q:

When did you first see that knapsack?

# 2611 A:

On my second trip.

# 2612 Q:

You noticed it at that time?

# 2613 A:

Yeah.

# 2614 Q:

Did you stop to pick it up at that time?

# 2615 A:

No.

# 2616 Q:

Why not?

# 2617 A:

I just didn't. I was kinda wondering. I saw a knapsack there. That's a weird place. It wasn't there before, I was thinking, and I was going--

# 2618 Q:

What color was the knapsack?

# 2619 A:

I remember it being dark, maybe black, and I thought it had a brown patch of leather.

# 2620 Q:

Small or large?

# 2621 A:

The patch of leather?

# 2622 Q:

Yeah.

# 2623 Q:

Big as this coffee cup (Indicating).

# 2624 A:

That's about it?

# 2625 (Nods head.)

# 2626 Q:

That's the only leather on it?

# 2627 A:

That's the only leather I saw.

# 2628 PHILLIP BAKER:

What is that, about two inches?

# 2629 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Yeah, about two inches.

# 2630 Q:

Two-inch leather patch. Right? Two or three inches.

# 2631 A:

A square. I think a square.

# 2632 Q:

Now, when you came out of the house after Mr. Simpson had gone past you, you--where did he go as you decided to go get the knapsack?

# 2633 A:

Well, when I started walking, I thought he was setting the alarm. I didn't know.

# 2634 Q:

How close had you gotten to the knapsack before you heard Mr. Simpson say, "No, I'll get it"?

# 2635 A:

I was about 75 feet from it.

# 2636 Q:

Where was Mr. Simpson when he said, "No, I'll get it"?

# 2637 A:

Back here by the Y of the driveway where it says the "Y" (Indicating).

# 2638 Q:

So you were about seven feet from reaching the knapsack, and he was about another ten or so feet behind you?

# 2639 A:

Yeah.

# 2640 PHILLIP BAKER:

Leading.

# 2641

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2642 Q:

Farther from the knapsack. Is that right?

# 2643 A:

Yeah, it was at least --it was about here (Indicating).

# 2644 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Let the record reflect that the witness is pointing to the area where the entranceway intersects the driveway.

# 2645 Q:

Is that right?

# 2646 A:

Yes.

# 2647 Q:

So he was farther from you.

# 2648 Q:

Yes.

# 2649 Q:

Excuse me. He was considerably farther than the knapsack.

# 2650 A:

Right. I was in a walking mode.

# 2651 Q:

What exactly did he say?

# 2652 A:

"No, I'll get it." I said I was gonna get it. I said, "Oh, I'll get this," and I was in that walking mode.

He says, "No, no, no. I'll get it."

# 2653 Q:

When he said, "No, no, no. I'll get it," did you stop?

# 2654 A:

Yeah. I was going, huh. I was closest, but okay. So I stopped--

# 2655 Q:

Were you a little surprised by that?

# 2656 PHILLIP BAKER:

You cut him off.

# 2657

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2658 Q:

Did I cut you off?

# 2659 MICHAEL PLOTKIN:

Yeah.

# 2660 KATO KAELIN:

I was surprised, but I was like going, huh, I was so close, maybe it's not supposed to go, or whatever. So I just turned around, I went "huh," and went back towards the limo driver, and my back was there, and I never saw it again.

# 2661

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2662 Q:

Now, when he said "No, no, no. I'll get it," and you stopped--

# 2663 A:

Right.

# 2664 Q:

--did he then start walking quickly to get the knapsack?

# 2665 A:

Yes.

# 2666 Q:

And did he overtake you?

# 2667 A:

Yeah. It was--he passed me up, right.

# 2668 Q:

So he passed you up, and you started heading back--

# 2669 A:

Right.

# 2670 Q:

--and he went to get that knapsack.

# 2671 A:

Yes.

# 2672 Q:

So you never did touch it, did you?

# 2673 A:

No.

# 2674 Q:

Let me show you some photographs. This has been previously marked as Exhibit 23, and do you recognize what is depicted in that photograph?

# 2675 Q:

Golf bag.

# 2676 Q:

Yeah. And is that the golf coverbag that you put in the trunk?

# 2677 A:

Yes.

# 2678 Q:

That wasn't the knapsack you saw near the Bentley.

# 2679 A:

No.

# 2680 Q:

Let me show you what has been previously marked as Exhibit 24. You see that garment bag?

# 2681 A:

Yes.

# 2682 Q:

Was that what you saw near the Bentley?

# 2683 A:

No.

# 2684 Q:

Let me show you what's previously been marked as Exhibit 27. This is what Mr. Simpson described as a suit bag. 25. Excuse me. Is that the knapsack you saw?

# 2685 A:

No.

# 2686 Q:

This is Exhibit 27, what Mr. Simpson described as a grip. Is that the knapsack you saw?

# 2687 A:

No .

# 2688 Q:

This is Exhibit 26, which is a bag that Mr. Simpson said he got from his Bentley. Is that it?

# 2689 A:

No.

# 2690 Q:

Exhibit 26 is not the knapsack you saw near the Bentley. Is that right?

# 2691 A:

No. It's a knapsack look to it.

# 2692 Q:

This is not it?

# 2693 A:

No.

# 2694 Q:

Describe what you mean by "knapsack."

# 2695 Q:

I think in my head it was like at college, you know, you put those things on your back, like that kind of a knapsack. I meant it was--

# 2696 Q:

Like a backpack?

# 2697 A:

Backpack, knapsack, yeah.

# 2698 Q:

But with one string at the end that closes?

# 2699 A:

Well, it had that shape to it, but I didn't see a string.

# 2700 Q:

Was it closed?

# 2701 A:

Yeah, it looked like it was closed. It was on the edge. It was that kind of shape (Indicating).

# 2702 Q:

Now, for the camera, could you do that again?

# 2703 A:

That kind of shape (Indicating), like a knapsack shape, where it was wider, and you would put your school books in.

# 2704 Q:

Soft cloth to it?

# 2705 A:

I thought it would have been.

# 2706 Q:

Any straps or cords on it?

# 2707 A:

I thought that--like I saw that the--where the patch would be. The patch would have been facing the top of the knapsack, and if you--right there on the knapsack. It would be--possibly the logo part would have been right there (Indicating), and that's it. That's the only patch I saw. That's the only different color to it I saw, from my memory.

# 2708 Q:

This black grip that I showed you apparently is not Exhibit 27, but Exhibit 4, but for the record that's not it, is it?

# 2709 A:

No.

# 2710 Q:

I will show you--that's all right. It's the same picture. Did you see what Mr. Simpson did when he--with that black knapsack?

# 2711 A:

Never. I never saw anything.

# 2712 Q:

Did he bring it in the car with him?

# 2713 A:

I didn't see it.

# 2714 Q:

When he left, did you see it behind?

# 2715 A:

No.

# 2716 Q:

Did you see it on the ground?

# 2717 A:

No.

# 2718 Q:

The Bronco was not in the driveway during this time, was it?

# 2719 A:

No.

# 2720 Q:

When Mr. Simpson asked you to set the code, was that the first time he had ever asked you to do so?

# 2721 A:

Yes.

# 2722 PHILLIP BAKER:

Are we talking in his foyer?

# 2723 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Yeah.

# 2724 Q:

Did he ask you to set the code in the foyer or as you were coming outside, or do you remember?

# 2725 A:

We were, I believe, right at the doorway, so we were still in the house and maybe a foot from beyond the house, if I remember correctly.

# 2726 Q:

What exactly did he say?

# 2727 A:

I think it was, "Kato, I'm running late. Set the alarm to the house."

# 2728 Q:

What did you say?

# 2729 A:

I said, "No. I don't know the alarm code, I'd rather not"

# 2730 Q:

What did he say?

# 2731 A:

I think he said he was gonna do it.

# 2732 Q:

He would do it?

# 2733 A:

Yeah. And so that made me go to that motion to the bag.

# 2734 Q:

And so far as you thought, he was setting the alarm?

# 2735 A:

Yes.

# 2736 Q:

You didn't put any other luggage in the car besides the golf bag?

# 2737 A:

Just the golf bag.

# 2738 Q:

Now, when you were talking to Mr. Simpson about the sounds and he said, "Oh, you go that way, I'll go that way" or "Let's check," did he seem genuinely concerned to you?

# 2739 PHILLIP BAKER:

Objection. Leading.

# 2740 KATO KAELIN:

It was this feeling that it was not genuine. To me, my feeling was that. And I couldn't figure out why he wanted to check, because the flight and that. So it was kind of, huh. So it just left me--just gave me a strange feeling.

# 2741

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2742 Q:

Did he tell you to call the cops?

# 2743 A:

No.

# 2744 Q:

Call Westec?

# 2745 A:

No.

# 2746 Q:

Did he tell you to look our for Arnelle when she came home?

# 2747 A:

No.

# 2748 Q:

Or to try to get in touch with her and see that everything was okay so that nothing jeopardized her safety?

# 2749 A:

No.

# 2750 Q:

He said nothing more than what you just testified to?

# 2751 A:

That was it.

# 2752 Q:

Was he wet?

# 2753 A:

I didn't notice being wet--I did not notice him being wet.

# 2754 Q:

To the best of your recollection, did he appear wet to you?

# 2755 A:

Did not.

# 2756 Q:

Did he appear that he had just gotten out of the shower?

# 2757 A:

Did not appear that way to me.

# 2758 Q:

Did he tell you that he had just gotten out of the shower?

# 2759 Q:

No.

# 2760 Q:

Did you ever notice if Mr. Simpson wore a watch?

# 2761 A:

Yeah.

# 2762 Q:

What kind of watch?

# 2763 A:

Usually a Swiss Army. He had a company--

# 2764 Q:

Normally when you saw him, he had a Swiss Army watch on?

# 2765 A:

Yeah.

# 2766 Q:

And did you ever notice if he had any jewelry on his fingers?

# 2767 A:

Usually a ring. I thought a big ring.

# 2768 Q:

A big ring.

# 2769 A:

How big his fingers were, I always noticed that ring.

# 2770 Q:

A pretty big ring?

# 2771 A:

Yeah.

# 2772 Q:

Do you have any reason to believe that he was not wearing the watch this evening?

# 2773 A:

I didn't see his hands, but, no. I would assume that it was on.

# 2774 Q:

The watch?

# 2775 A:

Watch and ring.

# 2776 Q:

My question to you is: Do you have any reason to believe he was not wearing the watch or the ring that evening?

# 2777 A:

No.

# 2778 PHILLIP BAKER:

He doesn't want you to assume anything.

# 2779

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2780 Q:

Let me make sure you understand my question. Do you have any reason to believe he was not wearing the watch that night?

# 2781 A:

No.

# 2782 Q:

Do you have any reason to believe he was not wearing the ring that night?

# 2783 A:

No.

# 2784 Q:

During this part of the evening when you saw him, you had the brief exchange about the noises and going in the house, were you ever like standing next to him for a sustained period of time?

# 2785 A:

There was never--it might have been for a few seconds, but it was always movement.

# 2786 Q:

Always movement.

# 2787 A:

Yeah.

# 2788 Q:

Did you get a clean, sustained look at his hands?

# 2789 A:

No.

# 2790 Q:

His fingers?

# 2791 A:

No.

# 2792 Q:

Now, Mr. Simpson got in the car, and then what happened next?

# 2793 A:

I think I shut the door possibly, but he was in the limo, and then I opened the gate at Rockingham for the limo driver. So when I pressed the button for the limo to get through--

# 2794 Q:

Pressed the button where?

# 2795 A:

The button would be right --gate control box on the--

# 2796 Q:

On Exhibit 27?

# 2797 A:

Yes.

# 2798 Q:

On the Rockingham gate.

# 2799 A:

Correct.

# 2800 Q:

On the inside. Right?

# 2801 A:

Right.

# 2802 Q:

And then what did you see?

# 2803 A:

Pressed the button, and they drove off--

# 2804 Q:

Right.

# 2805 A:

--and I waited for the gate to close--

# 2806 Q:

Right.

# 2807 A:

--and then I started running--I wanted to get back in my room, because I kept thinking, I have got to call Rachel, da, da, da. And so I ran and I went--I saw that the green light was still on, and I went, oh, the alarm's not set; great, and then I went back to my room.

# 2808 Q:

Now, you said you waited for the gate to close. Why did you do that?

# 2809 A:

I usually always wait for the gate to close for when I would just use it any time. Just one of my idiosyncrasies, that I would just watch a gate closed.

# 2810 Q:

Just to make sure it closed?

# 2811 A:

Just to make sure it closed.

# 2812 Q:

Do you know whether the limousine waited on the other side of the gate until the gate closed before it took off?

# 2813 A:

# 2814 Q:

Did it?

# 2815 A:

No. It took off. It didn't stop--you mean after the gate?

# 2816 Q:

Yes.

# 2817 A:

No. It took off.

# 2818 Q:

Did the dog run out?

# 2819 A:

No.

# 2820 Q:

When you went to McDonald's and you exited through the Rockingham gate, did the dog run out?

# 2821 A:

No.

# 2822 Q:

You told me before that you usually would park on the Ashford Street side and then get into the Ashford gate. Right?

# 2823 A:

Correct.

# 2824 Q:

But you didn't have a remote control for that gate. Right?

# 2825 A:

Correct

# 2826 Q:

How would you get in through that gate?

# 2827 A:

Michelle was the maid that used to work there.

# 2828 Q:

Yeah

# 2829 A:

She showed me a thing on the gate where you can--it's like--I don't know if it's a nut. There is a certain thing on the bottom of the gate you can manually push a little bit, and you can push the gate open and get in and then close the gate back and then go back and reset it.

# 2830 Q:

Is it something that you do at the bottom of the gate?

# 2831 A:

Bottom of the gate.

# 2832 Q:

At the center or at one of the hinges?

# 2833 A:

It's at a hinge. That's the word I'm looking for.

# 2834 Q:

On the left hinge?

# 2835 A:

I'd use the left hinge of the gate

# 2836 Q:

Is it something that was obvious to you?

# 2837 A:

No.

# 2838 Q:

Would it be obvious to anybody, you think?

# 2839 A:

No, No. She had to point it out. I never knew it existed.

# 2840 PHILLIP BAKER:

Speculation. Belatedly.

# 2841

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2842 Q:

Mr. -- Excuse me. Michelle pointed it out to you?

# 2843 A:

Yes. She said. "You know, there's a thing you can do here if you ever want to get in. It's right here. You just move it and get the gate and then get out that way."

# 2844 Q:

And that's how you were told to get in?

# 2845 A:

Yeah. As long as I just locked it back up.

# 2846 Q:

Did you ever tell that to anyone?

# 2847 A:

No.

# 2848 Q:

Did you ever tell anyone to get in that way?

# 2849 A:

No.

# 2850 Q:

Now you went back to your room. Right?

# 2851 A:

Yes.

# 2852 Q:

Now, before you got back to the room, I would like you to focus on this entire time that you were out on the property. Okay? Going out to the Bentley to go to McDonald's, coming back from the Bentley, going around to your property, coming back out to investigate once, going back to the limo, going back to investigate a second time, going back to the limo, going inside, coming out, going to the Bentley, stopping in your tracks. The whole description. Okay? During any of that time on the property, did you see any golf balls?

# 2853 A:

No.

# 2854 Q:

At any time during that evening did you see Mr. Simpson practicing golf?

# 2855 A:

No.

# 2856 Q:

Chipping golf balls?

# 2857 A:

No.

# 2858 Q:

Swinging a golf club?

# 2859 A:

No.

# 2860 Q:

Had you ever seen him swing a golf club on the property during the evenings?

# 2861 A:

No.

# 2862 Q:

Had you ever seen golf balls on the property?

# 2863 A:

Yeah. There was a time when there was a video being shot there, a Playboy video, and I don't know if golfing was part of the video or not, but he was golfing and hitting--chipping a ball into a tree, hitting a tree. That's the only time I saw it.

# 2864 Q:

With a camera crew there?

# 2865 A:

Yeah, there's a crew there. A bunch of people were there.

# 2866 Q:

That was in the daytime?

# 2867 A:

Daytime.

# 2868 Q:

Did you ever see golf balls there on any other occasion on the property?

# 2869 A:

No.

# 2870 Q:

And you never saw him playing golf at night.

# 2871 A:

No.

# 2872 Q:

Did you see Mr. Simpson walking his dog that evening on the outside of the property?

# 2873 A:

No.

# 2874 Q:

Did you see him normally walk his dog?

# 2875 Q:

No.

# 2876 Q:

Chachi.

# 2877 A:

Chachi, no. Chachi was--didn't walk, I mean, Chachi was like arthritic, turned-in leg.

# 2878 Q:

And Chachi would go to the bathroom on the Rockingham property?

# 2879 PHILLIP BAKER:

Objection. Speculation.

# 2880 KATO KAELIN:

Yeah. Yeah, I imagine it was Chachi went to the bathroom right there, always on the grass somewhere.

# 2881

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2882 Q:

Were you ever asked to walk the dog?

# 2883 A:

No.

# 2884 Q:

And you never saw Mr. Simpson walking the dog. Is that right?

# 2885 A:

No.

# 2886 Q:

Is that right?

# 2887 A:

No. I never saw the dog being walked.

# 2888 Q:

Okay.

# 2889 A:

You know what? One time I did take Kato and Chachi on a walk. A long time ago.

# 2890 Q:

I am just asking about Chachi.

# 2891 A:

Yeah

# 2892 MICHAEL PLOTKIN:

Can I just ask a question? Do you know whether he went to the bathroom on the premises, or are you speculating?

# 2893 KATO KAELIN:

Yeah, I'm pretty sure there was like dog dung on spots on the property.

# 2894

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2895 Q:

Now, when you went back to your room, were you still concerned that--about the noises?

# 2896 A:

Yes. I was concerned about the noises, and I was concerned that the alarm wasn't set. And I started--I was just very weird on that night, and I explained it to her on the phone--

# 2897 Q:

To whom?

# 2898 A:

To Rachel on the phone.

# 2899 Q:

When?

# 2900 A:

As soon as I got back in the room, I called her.

# 2901 Q:

So when you got back to your room that evening, you called Rachel Ferrara.

# 2902 A:

Yes.

# 2903 Q:

And what did you say to her?

# 2904 A:

I said. "Rachel, this is weird, all these things that are going on here right now." I said--I explained to her about the noises I heard. She asked me about checking it out. I go, "I didn't see anything." I had said about O.J. coming by--asking to help out behind the house, and I thought that was kind of weird. And then I said, "We never got the flashlight," and then I just went, "And now this alarm isn't set." So without the alarm being set, I was like--now I said, "Now the house is kinda like open." And she was going, "Sleep over here. Come over here." I said. "No. Now I better not come over there." So she was convincing me to come in to sleep the night, to come to her place, and then the phone clicked in. At some point the phone clicked in.

# 2905 Q:

How long after you got back to your room did the phone click in?

# 2906 A:

In my mind, I'm thinking like 10 or 15 minutes into the conversation.

# 2907 Q:

Might it have been longer?

# 2908 A:

It could have been.

# 2909 PHILLIP BAKER:

Can we take a quick break--

# 2910 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Yes.

# 2911 PHILLIP BAKER:

--a bathroom break?

# 2912 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Yes.

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 2:27.

# 2913 (Recess.)

# 2914 (Robert C. Baker enters the deposition.)

# 2915

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2916 Q:

When you were on the phone with Rachel Ferrara, at some point you said you heard the call waiting signal?

# 2917 A:

Yes.

# 2918 Q:

What did you do?

# 2919 A:

I told her, I said, "Ah, Rachel, hold on. The other line is ringing. Let me check it." So I checked it, and it was O.J., and he said that he had forgot to set the alarm and that I should set the alarm. And I said, "I don't know the alarm code." And so he gave it to me over the phone, and he told me the procedure, what happens when you set it. You wait a few seconds, and it will turn red. That means it's set. So I said, "Okay, I'll do it." And I didn't really hear any noise. I don't know if it was the airport or not. I didn't know where the phone call was coming from. In my mind I think I was registering that it wasn't the airport because I didn't hear any real noise, but I didn't know. I just got back on the line with Rachel and said, "You won't believe this. I'll call you back again," because I've done this all night to her. I said, "I'll call you back again. I'm going to go set the alarm now." So...

# 2920 Q:

Did you write down the alarm code?

# 2921 A:

Yeah, I put it on like a little pad next to my bed I had. And so I took it out there with the code, and hung up with her and ran out to set the alarm code.

# 2922 Q:

What key pad?

# 2923 A:

By the--the key pad at the front entrance. There is a keypad right there (Indicating).

# 2924 Q:

Is that the one he told you to use?

# 2925 A:

Yes.

# 2926 Q:

When you set the alarm, did you see a light go on?

# 2927 A:

Yeah. It went from green to red, so I knew I had done it right. And so when I'm punching it in. I was outside going, please, hurry up. Go, go, go," and as soon as it did, I ran right back to the room.

# 2928 Q:

Why did you run?

# 2929 A:

I didn't want to go back outside. I was scared.

# 2930 Q:

Still.

# 2931 A:

Still scared.

# 2932 Q:

Was that the first time Mr. Simpson had ever buzzed in while you were on a call?

# 2933 A:

I think so, yes.

# 2934 Q:

In other words, the first time you were on a call, you hear the call waiting sound and you check who it is, and it's O.J. Simpson?

# 2935 A:

Yeah. I think it could have happened maybe once, but I don't remember. It never happened any more than once.

# 2936 Q:

Was that the first time he ever called you at night in your room?

# 2937 A:

Yes.

# 2938 PHILLIP BAKER:

Did you finish again?

# 2939 KATO KAELIN:

I was finished with that statement. What was--.

# 2940

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2941 Q:

Had you finished your answer?

# 2942 A:

Yes.

# 2943 Q:

Okay. Was that the first time O.J. Simpson had ever called you at your room at night?

# 2944 A:

I think so.

# 2945 Q:

You could not tell where he was calling you from. Is that what you said?

# 2946 A:

Correct.

# 2947 Q:

How long did the conversation occur?

# 2948 A:

How long did it last--

# 2949 Q:

Yeah.

# 2950 A:

--the conversation? I think, max, about a minute, two minutes.

# 2951 Q:

And once again, tell me everything you can recall that he said.

# 2952 A:

I think it was, "Kato, you won't believe this, but I forgot to set the alarm, and you're gonna have to set it." I said, "I don't have the code. I don't know it." He goes, "I'm going to give you the code, and I'll tell you what you have to do. And what happens is it goes from green to red, and when you punch in the code, you have to wait a few seconds and then it will go to red. That means the house is set. That means the alarm is on." I said, "Okay, I'll do it."

# 2953 Q:

Did he say anything in that conversation about the noises you heard?

# 2954 A:

No.

# 2955 Q:

Did you tell him anything about the noises?

# 2956 Q:

No.

# 2957 Q:

He asked you no questions?

# 2958 A:

No questions, no.

# 2959 Q:

About the noises.

# 2960 A:

Correct.

# 2961 Q:

Is that right?

# 2962 A:

Correct.

# 2963 Q:

Did you then call Rachel back after you came back from setting the alarm?

# 2964 Q:

Yes. As soon as I did that, I called Rachel right back.

# 2965 Q:

What did you tell Rachel?

# 2966 A:

I said, "That was weird. I had to set the alarm." I said, "It's a weird night, Rachel. I don't know why. It's just a weird night." So I'd gone over the whole night of what happened, and that was pretty much it, and we just talked, and she was continually trying to convince me to come over. I didn't ask her to come over to my place. I don't think I did. And, you know, then I just mentioned everything from the typewriter, to the noise, just the weird events of the night, explaining to her. So I think I was freaking her out, scaring her, and that's why she kept telling me, "Come over."

# 2967 Q:

In this telephone call did Mr. Simpson say anything about his daughter Arnelle?

# 2968 A:

No.

# 2969 Q:

Tell you to call the police or anything?

# 2970 A:

No.

# 2971 Q:

Or--

# 2972 A:

Very quick conversation.

# 2973 Q:

Very quick?

# 2974 A:

Very quick. Alarm, get it done, and that was about it.

# 2975 Q:

Did you get to sleep that evening?

# 2976 A:

After I talked to Rachel. I believe it was about 1:00 a.m., I hung up with her.

# 2977 Q:

You were on that long?

# 2978 A:

Yeah. I was on for quite a long time with her. And I had the Calendar section of the Times because I wasn't tired. So I started to read that Calendar section, and it was about 1:30 when I heard high heels, the clicking of heels. It sounded like a woman's heels going --coming from it seemed like the house down the pathway, and I assumed in my head it was Arnelle.

# 2979 Q:

Did the clicking stop at some point?

# 2980 A:

Yeah. That's why I assumed. I probably heard her door open. I'm not positive, but I'm assuming that that all happened. But, yes, definitely heels. And when I heard the heels walking and all that, I just turned my light off, and I felt she's there, and I felt a little safer that there was someone else on the grounds.

# 2981 Q:

Let me ask you a question back about the limousine: When you saw that limousine out there on the outside of the Ashford gate when you came out the first time to investigate--

# 2982 A:

Yes.

# 2983 Q:

--was that the first time you had ever seen a limousine parked out there waiting to get in?

# 2984 A:

Yes.

# 2985 Q:

Now, you were awakened at some point in the morning or next day?

# 2986 A:

Right.

# 2987 Q:

When was that?

# 2988 A:

I was having--I wasn't sleeping good at all, and it was one--like I said, it was still--Arnelle was home. I felt better that someone's on the grounds but still shaky, and I wasn't--I was not in a real deep sleep. And during part of the night I thought I was dreaming, but I kept hearing the continuing--continual ringing of a phone. And the phone from the house rings different than my phone, and it was kind of like a phaser on stun, that kind of noise from STAR TREK, that (sound), that kind of noise. So that noise kept going on and on and on, and I thought it was in my dream. I kept going, what is going--because it seemed like it was for hours. But I was just turning and turning, and then there was a pounding at my door.

# 2989 Q:

And--

# 2990 A:

In that--I mean, I don't know how much time had passed because I was tossing and turning, but there was that phone ringing noise. It was pretty continual.

# 2991 Q:

What happened when you heard the pounding?

# 2992 A:

At my door?

# 2993 Q:

Yeah.

# 2994 A:

I woke up. You know, I was--

# 2995 Q:

What did you do?

# 2996 A:

"Who's there?" And they said, "The police." And I went. "Oh, God," and I got--I looked through that little latch. I have those wooden panels, and I couldn't really tell if they were police. They were in suits. And I started thinking about the whole night and I go, "Oh, my God, are they really cops," and all that, and then I kind of saw a badge on the belt, and I opened the door.

# 2997 Q:

What happened when the police came in?

# 2998 A:

They asked who I was. You know, I don't know the exact order of everything. They asked who I was, and I told them who I was, whose house it was, who else was here. One of the detectives came in then, into my room, asked me what I wore that night, checked the things that I wore from jeans to boots, and I started going, "What happened? Did O.J.'s plane crash? What's going on?" They wouldn't answer me. They wouldn't answer anything I was asking them. I'm going--and so I was just getting very uptight. And at some point they said, "Is someone else here?" I pointed to Arnelle's room, and I think Mark Fuhrman stayed with me and did a test with the light or--one of the two, to see if I did drugs or something.

# 2999 Q:

Did he ask you if you had done drugs?

# 3000 A:

Yeah.

# 3001 Q:

And--

# 3002 A:

He said, "Did you"--

# 3003 Q:

What did you tell him?

# 3004 A:

I said, "No." I said, "I don't do drugs."

# 3005 Q:

And then he shown a light in your eyes?

# 3006 A:

I think it was follow a pen. It was one of the two. It was definitely one of those tests, though.

# 3007 Q:

To see if you were on drugs?

# 3008 A:

Right. My eyes were red. My eyes were red. And he asked me then if I smoked pot that night. I said, "No."

# 3009 Q:

Why were your eyes red?

# 3010 A:

Because I have this infection here (Indicating). It's still kind of red. I have these things on my eyes, and they always are pretty much red, and if I read, they get real red.

# 3011 Q:

You said one of the officers was looking at your clothing and your boots?

# 3012 A:

Yes.

# 3013 Q:

Who was that?

# 3014 A:

I believe Fuhrman.

# 3015 Q:

And what did he do when he looked at your clothing? This is clothing that you had taken off?

# 3016 A:

No, no. I was in my pajamas, so this was there on the chair.

# 3017 Q:

You were in your pajamas?

# 3018 Q:

Yeah. I was in shorts and a shirt.

# 3019 Q:

He asked you what clothing you wore the night before?

# 3020 A:

Yeah. And I still was--I couldn't figure out what he was talking about, so--but I was showing him everything, and I was kind of talking very high energy and going, "I don't know if it means anything"; I told him about this noise I heard. I said, "I heard this noise back there, and this picture moved. I thought we had an earthquake again." I mentioned that thing and--

# 3021 Q:

This is Fuhrman?

# 3022 A:

To Fuhrman. I think I said it to everybody, but I think Fuhrman first.

# 3023 Q:

And then--Well, let me get back to looking at your clothes. What did he say to you about your clothing?

# 3024 A:

He wasn't really talking to me.

# 3025 Q:

Did he look at your clothing?

# 3026 A:

He was doing all the talking. If he had something to say, he would tell me, but everything I was saying, he wasn't really paying attention--he was paying attention, but he wouldn't really comment on anything I was saying.

# 3027 Q:

He wouldn't respond. He looked at your clothing?

# 3028 A:

Yes.

# 3029 Q:

And he checked it all out?

# 3030 A:

Yeah.

# 3031 Q:

And what about your shoes? What did he do with your shoes?

# 3032 A:

He looked at the bottom of my shoes.

# 3033 Q:

What shoes did he look at?

# 3034 A:

They were these like the boots, they're like Doc Martens.

# 3035 Q:

Why did he look at those boot? Do you know?

# 3036 PHILLIP BAKER:

Speculation.

# 3037 KATO KAELIN:

I have no idea.

# 3038

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 3039 Q:

Did you tell him these are what you had worn the night before?

# 3040 Q:

Right.

# 3041 Q:

Okay. Where did he look on the boots?

# 3042 A:

To turn them over.

# 3043 Q:

Did he tell you what he was looking for?

# 3044 A:

No.

# 3045 ROBERT BAKER:

You mean the sole? I couldn't understand.

# 3046 KATO KAELIN:

The sole, the sole of my shoes.

# 3047 ROBERT BAKER:

Thank you.

# 3048

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 3049 Q:

He looked at the sole of your shoes--

# 3050 A:

Yes.

# 3051 Q:

--and examined--

# 3052 A:

The sole of my shoes. He might have looked around the room. There was a point where I was out of my room, too. He was still there, and I came in. It was very confusing. I was just very flustered. And so much was going on, I was trying to remember in the right order, but Detective Vannatter--Detective Vannatter took notes at one point, and I was at the bar, and I told him the events of the night.

# 3053 Q:

So you first told Fuhrman about the events of the night and then Vannatter?

# 3054 A:

Well, Fuhrman I was telling kind of everything to. It wasn't--it was just kind of, "Yeah, well, did his plane crash? Did this happen?" "Did you smoke pot?" "No, I don't smoke pot." "And who else lives here?" "Arnelle." I go, "I heard this noise. It was here. It moved my picture." And then he'd go on. And I was talking very fast.

# 3055 Q:

When he finished--when Fuhrman finished talking to you in your room, what did the police then do with you?

# 3056 A:

Oh, I was--they never left. There was always someone with me. I pointed out where Arnelle's room was, so two of them went there. They were pounding on her door for quite a while, like pounding on her door and pounding on her door, and she wasn't answering.

# 3057 Q:

Were you watching?

# 3058 A:

Yeah. I was starting to think, "I know I thought I heard"--you know, from the footsteps, I think I said, "I think she's in there. And there was pounding and pounding and pounding, and it seemed like three or four minutes she then came out. They said "Police" again.

# 3059 Q:

Now, did you say anything to the police about the alarm being on or that you had set the alarm?

# 3060 A:

They might have asked me that. I might have said something about that--probably when I was sitting at the bar with Vannatter, I said about the call coming from O.J., that he asked me to set the alarm. I don't think I had set it until then. I think he asked if there was an alarm to the house, and I think I said, "Yeah, there's an alarm." If I had keys. I said "No."

# 3061 Q:

Did you deactivate the alarm for them?

# 3062 A:

No.

# 3063 Q:

Do you know--

# 3064 A:

I don't know how to.

# 3065 Q:

--if Arnelle did?

# 3066 A:

She might have. I don't know. I wasn't aware of that. I don't think so.

# 3067 PHILLIP BAKER:

He doesn't want you to guess at anything. Just answer what you know.

# 3068

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 3069 Q:

When you went--I'm sorry. Are you finished?

# 3070 A:

I don't know if Arnelle did then.

# 3071 Q:

At some point after they banged on Arnelle's door, they took you inside the residence?

# 3072 A:

Yes.

# 3073 Q:

How did they get inside?

# 3074 A:

Arnelle had keys.

# 3075 Q:

Did you follow them while they were going in?

# 3076 A:

All of us walked in, right. I followed them.

# 3077 Q:

Which door did Arnelle open?

# 3078 A:

The back door, the back door here (Indicating).

# 3079 Q:

You are referring to Exhibit 27?

# 3080 A:

Yes. The black dot here, the black square.

# 3081 Q:

There is a little black mark next to the office.

# 3082 ROBERT BAKER:

The patio door, is that where we're looking?

# 3083 KATO KAELIN:

No. There is patio doors here (Indicating), but this is the door that would kind of walk into the bar.

# 3084

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 3085 Q:

From the outside yard area?

# 3086 A:

Yes.

# 3087 Q:

Do you know whether there is a keypad there from which the alarm can be deactivated?

# 3088 A:

I don't think there is. I'm not aware of it if there is.

# 3089 Q:

Do you think that's the door that they went through?

# 3090 A:

Pretty positive that was the door they went through, yes.

# 3091 Q:

That's the door that you believe Arnelle opened with a key?

# 3092 A:

Yes.

# 3093 Q:

And then all of you filed into the room?

# 3094 A:

Yes.

# 3095 Q:

And they talked to you some more?

# 3096 A:

Yes. There was always someone with me and her at all times, and then they--someone pointed out that I should just have a seat here, and that was a seat at the bar. But I don't know exactly when because I know I was in the kitchen at one point, out of the kitchen, and that's when they asked me if I knew about the Bronco keys were, if there were a set of Bronco keys. I said "Yeah. I think there's another set around here somewhere," and I helped look through like a drawer or two but never found them.

# 3097 Q:

Do you remember anything else they asked you?

# 3098 A:

If it was--I think stuff about O.J.'s flight, what time it left. I said he was in Chicago. Yeah, I mean there's a lot --I mean, if you know something, I mean--

# 3099 Q:

That's what you can recall right now?

# 3100 A:

There's that. There's looking for the keys. Then at some point they told us the news of what happened.

# 3101 Q:

What did they say?

# 3102 A:

That Nicole was murdered.

# 3103 Q:

Who said that?

# 3104 A:

I think it was on the phone I heard Arnelle scream, and that's when I knew something, and then they--came in.

# 3105 Q:

Who told you Nicole had been murdered?

# 3106 A:

I don't know if it was Fuhrman or Vannatter.

# 3107 Q:

Did they ask you if you knew anything about it?

# 3108 A:

They asked if I knew her. I said "Yes, I know her," and they asked me some questions about her, and I think I explained to them how I knew her, and then I told them--

# 3109 PHILLIP BAKER:

We are still in the bar area. Right?

# 3110 KATO KAELIN:

Yes, in the bar area. See, part of this--where I'm at the bar area where I'm at a bar stool with Vannatter taking notes, and I can't distinguish exactly the scream, when they came in, when I started looking for Bronco keys. Everything is just so --happening all at that same time, it seemed like, so I can't tell you exactly. It seemed like I was--sat down right away, though.

# 3111

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 3112 Q:

Okay. Did they at any time ask you to show them around the house at all?

# 3113 Q:

No.

# 3114 Q:

Did they take you through the foyer at all?

# 3115 A:

At one time, yes.

# 3116 Q:

For what purpose, if you know?

# 3117 A:

That's when they said I was going to the police station, and then they led me out. And when they were leading me out, they said, "Watch out for the blood," and I went--and I saw blood on the ground.

# 3118 Q:

Where did you see blood?

# 3119 A:

It was in the foyer. Drops of blood.

# 3120 Q:

How many drops did you see?

# 3121 A:

Quite a few. It's one of those floors that has--they're the round circles to the floor, the wood, and they're like that pegs--

# 3122 Q:

Right.

# 3123 A:

--and they're circles, and they were mixed in with the pegs.

# 3124 Q:

Right.

# 3125 A:

And it seemed like there were quite a few. I can't give you a number, but it seemed like with those dots and everything, there was quite a few drops of blood.

# 3126 Q:

Some of the dots were the peg-like markings that are part of the flooring. Right?

# 3127 A:

Correct.

# 3128 Q:

But some were blood.

# 3129 A:

Yes.

# 3130 Q:

About what time was it when you saw the blood in the foyer?

# 3131 A:

I'm guessing about 6:45, 7:00 a.m. I'm thinking--I know I was waiting on the street for a while for the police to take me down.

# 3132 Q:

Was that blood in the foyer--did you notice if it was near the door to the kitchen?

# 3133 A:

Yes.

# 3134 Q:

And what happened after you saw the blood?

# 3135 A:

I watched my foot, my steps, because I looked down and I went, there's blood.

# 3136 Q:

Had you gotten dressed yet?

# 3137 A:

I think at one point they let me put on jeans and a shirt. I don't know exactly when, but definitely when I was waiting in the street, they let me go and get some clothes on.

# 3138 Q:

Then they took you down to the station?

# 3139 A:

No, they didn't. They said they had a squad coming. And the squad never showed up, but there were squad cars there already, and then they just said "You guys take him." So the squad they called to take me never did show, and there were two other cops in uniforms outside, that were outside on the street. They were the ones that eventually took me down there, because the people that were supposed to, whoever they were, didn't--weren't --didn't show up.

# 3140 Q:

So about what time did you leave to go to the police station?

# 3141 A:

It seemed like it was about 7:30 a.m.

# 3142 Q:

And you only made one trip back to your room to get dressed?

# 3143 A:

Yeah. I believe so.

# 3144 Q:

You had an answering machine?

# 3145 A:

Yes.

# 3146 Q:

Did you check your messages?

# 3147 A:

At that time, no.

# 3148 Q:

You did not check.

# 3149 A:

No. I didn't check my machine or anything at that--there was--

# 3150 Q:

You don't know whether you had any messages at that time. Is that right?

# 3151 A:

Correct. I usually don't have any before that time, anyway, so I would assume there--don't assume, but...

# 3152 Q:

When was the next time after you left your room after changing that you next were in your room?

# 3153 A:

After changing?

# 3154 Q:

Yeah. You went to the police station. When did you next go to your room?

# 3155 A:

Oh, I don't think I went back in my room until like Monday at 10:00 at night or 11:00 at night.

# 3156 Q:

On the 13th.

# 3157 A:

Correct.

# 3158 Q:

Did you check your messages then?

# 3159 A:

I checked messages from the police station.

# 3160 Q:

Ah, from a remote?

# 3161 A:

Yes.

# 3162 Q:

And did you have any?

# 3163 A:

I had--the entire tape was filled up. And I was with the police there, and it was so long. I just heard my mom was crying. And I wasn't aware that it was a big media event yet, so I didn't figure out through my mom's message she thought I was dead. So someone had told her that the person that was dead was me, and so she was leaving this message, and like I couldn't figure out exactly what was going on. So that--I hung up the phone on the thing because it was so long, and the police then called me back into this room, so I never finished it.

# 3164 Q:

You didn't listen to all your messages?

# 3165 A:

No.

# 3166 Q:

Did it tell you how many messages you had?

# 3167 A:

No. But it's a beep that I could tell that it was like full. I think it's a 15-minute tape.

# 3168 Q:

How many messages did you listen to?

# 3169 A:

Maybe two or three.

# 3170 Q:

Were there any hang-ups?

# 3171 Q:

Boy, there could have been.

# 3172 Q:

You don't know?

# 3173 A:

It doesn't say "hang up." It just might make a click or--

# 3174 Q:

Did you hear any of those when you were listening to your messages?

# 3175 A:

I can't remember. I can't remember but my mom's.

# 3176 Q:

Okay. When you were at the police station, did you give a statement to the officers?

# 3177 A:

Yes.

# 3178 Q:

And do you remember who took your statement?

# 3179 Q:

I believe it was Brian Carr and Paul Tippin.

# 3180 Q:

And you told them about the events of the night before?

# 3181 A:

Yes.

# 3182 Q:

Did they eventually take you home?

# 3183 A:

Yeah.

# 3184 PHILLIP BAKER:

Leading.

# 3185 KATO KAELIN:

Yeah. I was there for a long time. Eventually--

# 3186

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 3187 Q:

What time did they take you home?

# 3188 Q:

I think it was 4:00 or 4:30. It was late afternoon.

# 3189 Q:

Did they take you to Mr. Simpson's residence?

# 3190 A:

No.

# 3191 Q:

Where did they take you?

# 3192 A:

They said to me it's not good for me to go back right now. It's a big huge media thing. They said, "Where do you want to go?" I said. "Take me to my buddy's house, Grant's," so they dropped me off there. Grant Cramer.

# 3193 Q:

How long were you at Grant Cramer's?

# 3194 A:

I think I was at Grant's house probably from, estimating, 5:00 until maybe 9:00, 8:30, 9:00.

# 3195 Q:

Did you get any phone calls from Mr. Simpson during that time?

# 3196 A:

I don't think so.

# 3197 Q:

Or Cathy Randa?

# 3198 A:

I got a phone call I think maybe the next day there or was--it could have been the same day there at Grant's house, and I think it was Cathy Randa. It could have been that same day.

# 3199 Q:

What did Cathy Randa say?

# 3200 A:

That Howard Weitzman wanted to talk to me. And I don't know if she gave me the number or I gave her that number where I was at; I don't remember, but I remember talking to him at his house, at Grant's house. Weitzman on the phone, and it was a three-way call. O.J. was on one line, too.

# 3201 Q:

Now, did that call with Weitzman occur before you went back to Rockingham on the 13th or after?

# 3202 A:

I think it occurred before I went to Rockingham. I think. I...

# 3203 Q:

On the 13th?

# 3204 A:

I believe so.

# 3205 Q:

And you said you got back to Rockingham finally on the 13th around what time?

# 3206 A:

I think it was 9:00 or 10:00. It was later.

# 3207 Q:

Why did you go back to Rockingham?

# 3208 A:

I didn't have any clothes. I thought everybody was wondering, where's Kato? Why isn't Kato here, and I didn't want it to seem like, God, Kato's not here. I wonder what he thinks. One of those things where everybody was going to gang up on me. So I felt like it was my--I should go back to the house.

# 3209 Q:

How did you get there?

# 3210 A:

I believe Grant took me.

# 3211 Q:

And you believe as of this time you had spoken to Mr. Weitzman and Mr. Simpson on a three-way call?

# 3212 A:

I think so.

# 3213 Q:

Tell me about that call.

# 3214 A:

It was a call where he was asking me about the events again. Howard Weitzman asked me what went on and...

# 3215 Q:

Let me stop you right there.

# 3216 PHILLIP BAKER:

Let him finish.

# 3217 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

I just want to make sure we have our timing right.

# 3218 KATO KAELIN:

Yeah, because this is --I want to think here, because I remember talking and, boy, I can't give you the exact time in my mind--

# 3219

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 3220 Q:

Is this the first time that you had spoken to Mr. Simpson since learning about Nicole's murder, was on the telephone in the three-way call?

# 3221 A:

Yes. I believe so.

# 3222 Q:

Do you remember that, or do you remember seeing Mr. Simpson in person for the first time?

# 3223 PHILLIP BAKER:

Leading.

# 3224 KATO KAELIN:

What my mind says is I thought I saw him in person that night first. I thought that's what it was.

# 3225

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 3226 Q:

Okay. Well, then why don't you tell us about going back to Rockingham that evening.

# 3227 A:

Okay. So I got dropped off at Rockingham, and I think they let me in the gate. They saw it was me, and they let me in the house--

# 3228 Q:

Who is "they"?

# 3229 Q:

There was people there that I didn't know, and some group was all family, and other people that I just did not recognize at all.

# 3230 Q:

Keep going.

# 3231 A:

People were continually coming in. I couldn't tell you from day to day when I saw one person, if it was the Monday or a Tuesday, because it was like a continual flow of people coming in, into the house. So I walked into the house, and everybody was in the living room, and there were --all three TVs were on. There was a big screen and two TVs above the big screen. And O.J. was sitting in a chair. It was kind of like--this one is kind of a leather chair, but a big one. And I was to the side, and they were all watching the--I think it was KNBC and shouting things to the TV.

# 3232 Q:

Shouting things?

# 3233 A:

Well, like "Oh, no, that's not true," or that--I don't know the exact things, but, "What are they saying"--

# 3234 Q:

What were they watching? Coverage of the--

# 3235 A:

Coverage of the whole case going

# 3236 Q:

Okay. Continue.

# 3237 A:

So I was back behind--

# 3238 ROBERT BAKER:

Object. Narrative.

# 3239

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 3240 Q:

You can keep going.

# 3241 A:

So I was behind the chair where O.J. was, and I just remember him with a tissue with blood on a finger, and I just was like in my head thinking, oh, I didn't want to be right there at that time. And I remember O.J. saying something like, "Well, Kato knows where I was." It was a thing about the McDonald's, I think, on TV. And someone said, "Kato's right there," and then O.J. looked, and I said, "I'm sorry about what happened and about Nicole," and it was me saying that. And I think I went into the kitchen then and--

# 3242 Q:

Before you went in the kitchen, when O.J. said. "Kato knows where I was," did you say anything back to him about that comment?

# 3243 A:

No. I think I was quiet. I was pretty much quiet the entire time. I wasn't feeling good, and I was shook up from everything.

# 3244 Q:

Did you see blood on his finger?

# 3245 A:

Yes.

# 3246 Q:

Where?

# 3247 A:

If I remember, I thought he had a tissue on this finger (Indicating).

# 3248 Q:

Like a paper tissue?

# 3249 A:

I think it was paper towel.

# 3250 PHILLIP BAKER:

What finger are you pointing to?

# 3251 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Middle one.

# 3252 KATO KAELIN:

This one, middle (Indicating).

# 3253 ROBERT BAKER:

Middle finger--

# 3254

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 3255 Q:

Middle finger, left hand? So you saw blood on his finger.

# 3256 A:

I saw the blood coming through the tissue.

# 3257 Q:

Okay. Did you ask him how he--

# 3258 A:

No.

# 3259 Q:

--how he got cut?

# 3260 A:

No. I didn't. I didn't bring it up.

# 3261 Q:

Why not?

# 3262 A:

Just didn't. Scared.

# 3263 Q:

You were scared.

# 3264 A:

Yeah. I just didn't want to think bad thoughts.

# 3265 Q:

You were thinking bad thoughts

# 3266 A:

Yeah.

# 3267 Q:

What bad thoughts were you thinking when you saw the blood on O.J. Simpson's finger?

# 3268 A:

I thought it was possibly that something --O.J. could have done something.

# 3269 Q:

You mean like murdered his wife?

# 3270 A:

Possible. I mean it crossed my mind.

# 3271 Q:

You then--By the way, at that point did you associate back to the noises that you heard the night before?

# 3272 A:

Everything--

# 3273 PHILLIP BAKER:

Leading.

# 3274 KATO KAELIN:

I thought of everything possible, and I was getting sick to my stomach with everything. I just was thinking about the events of everything and going, why did I hear that, why did I do this, and the setting the alarm--everything, I was just trying to figure out. I was going, no, it can't be, and just all that stuff was adding up.

# 3275

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 3276 Q:

How did you feel in that roomful of people?

# 3277 A:

I wanted to go away, just myself. It was nothing against any of the people. I just wanted to get out. I didn't feel good about being there.

# 3278 Q:

Did you feel pressure?

# 3279 ROBERT BAKER:

Leading.

# 3280 KATO KAELIN:

It was just an uneasy feeling, that I wanted to go and get out of the house.

# 3281

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 3282 Q:

Okay. But you didn't go out of the house, you said.

# 3283 A:

No. Well, I left many times. I was there. I never--I--slept in the room again. I kind of gave my room up. I slept--when I stayed there. Other times I slept at Grant's house or a friend's house during that time, and I didn't go really back into my room. I gave it up to the family, O.J.'s family members.

# 3284 Q:

You said you went into the kitchen.

# 3285 A:

Yes.

# 3286 Q:

What did you do in the kitchen?

# 3287 A:

Either I was in the kitchen first or O.J. was in the kitchen, but we both ended up in the kitchen.

# 3288 Q:

Alone?

# 3289 A:

Yes. I mean, there's people in the house. In the kitchen alone.

# 3290 Q:

You and O.J. Simpson were in the kitchen alone.

# 3291 A:

Right. I think it was condolences I started giving again, and then I propped myself up on the kitchen sink. I kind of hung over. And I believe O.J. just said, "You know I went into the house from McDonald's." And I--

# 3292 Q:

Excuse me. What did he say?

# 3293 A:

"You know I went into the house after McDonald's."

# 3294 Q:

Okay.

# 3295 A:

And I said--I believe I said, "No, I didn't see you go in," and that was it.

# 3296 Q:

What did he do?

# 3297 A:

I don't think I--I think that was the end of the conversation. Maybe he went back into that room or I took off. And I think I just said, "O.J., I didn't see you go in there. I didn't see you go in the house. I didn't"

# 3298 Q:

Did he say anything back to you?

# 3299 PHILLIP BAKER:

Asked and answered.

# 3300 KATO KAELIN:

I don't remember right now.

# 3301

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 3302 Q:

And what happened after that? Did you or he leave the kitchen?

# 3303 PHILLIP BAKER:

Leading.

# 3304 KATO KAELIN:

Something came up. Either someone came in or there was a disruption. I went to my room. I don't remember right now.

# 3305 PHILLIP BAKER:

Remember, he doesn't want you to--anything you don't recall, he doesn't want you to testify to.

# 3306 KATO KAELIN:

Right. Okay. I just don't remember right now.

# 3307

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 3308 Q:

Okay. But you spent the evening there. Is that right?

# 3309 A:

I think I did. I think I did. I think I slept on the floor next to Gigi.

# 3310 Q:

Now, the next day did you go anywhere?

# 3311 A:

Yes. That next day I went to Robert --to O.J.'s business, where Skip Taft and Robert Shapiro were.

# 3312 Q:

Who took you there?

# 3313 Q:

Arnelle and a guy named Jonah, a friend of hers.

# 3314 Q:

Okay. What time did you go?

# 3315 A:

It was nighttime. I think it was about 7:00

# 3316 Q:

Before you went there, had you already spoken to Mr. Simpson and Mr. Weitzman on the three-way call?

# 3317 A:

I think so. I think there was a call about the meeting. I don't remember if it was Cathy Randa set it up or--there was a conversation, though. At the time, I just don't know.

# 3318 Q:

Do you remember where you were during that conversation?

# 3319 A:

I thought I was at Grant Cramer's house.

# 3320 Q:

Okay. Well, tell us as best you can recall what was said in that conversation with Mr. Simpson and Mr. Weitzman and yourself.

# 3321 A:

I believe that he was saying that I was gonna be at a meeting, if I had a problem going to-- talking to Skip Taft I think at that time to talk about the events of the night and about O.J. and Nicole, their relationship. I said. "No. I don't have a problem. I'll go." And I--the part of it was O.J. saying to me. "Just tell the truth." And some of the other dialogue. I just can't remember. I don't remember it being very long. And then I remember going back to the house for some--at some point to the Rockingham house and more people being there, and one comment of--that a person made just sticks out in my mind.

# 3322 Q:

What comment was that?

# 3323 A:

A guy named Mark Slotnik?

# 3324 Q:

Slotkin or Slotnik?

# 3325 A:

Mark Slotkin. If I saw the face, I'd know it, but I think it's Slotkin. Said --there were many people in the room, and I was going to meet with Shapiro and Skip Taft, and I had met him before, Mark Slotnik--

# 3326 Q:

Slotkin?

# 3327 A:

Slotkin. I had met him before, seen him before, and I met him--I didn't know him well enough--you know. I never had hung out with the guy and all that, but he knew my name and he just said. "It's O.J., man. Get your story straight. It's O.J. Get your story straight." And I got so scared from--I couldn't figure out why he was saying that to me, because he didn't know me.

# 3328 Q:

Did you say anything back to him?

# 3329 A:

"Oh, okay. And the whole time this was going on, I was just sick to my stomach. Went down to the office to meet those guys. I went down to the office to meet those guys, and they did an interview with me.

# 3330 Q:

Who interviewed you?

# 3331 A:

Robert Shapiro and Skip Taft.

# 3332 Q:

And you?

# 3333 A:

And myself.

# 3334 Q:

Anyone else in the room?

# 3335 A:

No. A call came in from O.J., but they asked me to leave the room.

# 3336 Q:

And did you?

# 3337 A:

Yes.

# 3338 Q:

Did you overhear the call?

# 3339 A:

I thought I heard something going on.

# 3340 Q:

What did you hear?

# 3341 A:

About how Kato was doing. And I think that during a part of it, part of the interview, a call came in. I think at that time they were getting Henry Lee. I think already they were getting specialists. That's all I can remember right now.

# 3342 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Well, we will have to stop here for the tape change. Okay? We will take a short break.

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the end of tape No. 2. The time is approximately 3:18, and we are off the record.

# 3343 (Recess.)

# 3344

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 3345 Q:

Mr. Kaelin, tell us as best as you can recall everything that was said in the discussion with Shapiro and Taft.

# 3346 A:

Okay. It started with a kind of a history of how I met Nicole; it went into the move from Nicole's to O.J.'s; it went into that night of events; it went into history, I think, of fighting of O.J. and Nicole; and then it ended with--I have that--the questions they asked me. I'm trying to think--

# 3347 Q:

What do you mean, you have the questions they asked you?

# 3348 A:

The DA's office gave me a thing--

# 3349 Q:

Transcription?

# 3350 A:

A transcript of it. And basically all the events of that night, they went into and talked to me about that.

# 3351 Q:

And then you left?

# 3352 A:

Yeah, then I took off. I called back at the house and said I was done, and Arnelle and Jonah picked me up again.

# 3353 Q:

You went back to Rockingham?

# 3354 A:

Went back to Rockingham.

# 3355 Q:

And did you stay there?

# 3356 A:

I don't know if I stayed or not. I stayed one of the nights, maybe two of the nights. I can't distinguish exactly what nights I stayed there. I could have stayed that night at the Rockingham house, but then again I could have headed over to Grant Cramer's that night.

# 3357 Q:

Why did you leave Rockingham.

# 3358 A:

I didn't want to be there.

# 3359 Q:

Why not?

# 3360 A:

I just had an uneasy feeling and--

# 3361 Q:

About what?

# 3362 A:

Of being in the house.

# 3363 Q:

Why?

# 3364 A:

Well, it was a few things: It was seeing so many people that I didn't know and everybody that knew me. It was seeing people make comments to me, from Mark Slotkin to just other people that were all, "Come on, Kato." Just statements. I mean, that one with Slotkin sticks out, but it was kind of a bunch of people I didn't know making comments to me about what went on when no one knew exactly what went on because I didn't tell anybody about all these events. So no one knew anything but me.

# 3365 Q:

What kind of comments were people making to you at Rockingham?

# 3366 A:

There was a lot of shouting at TV reporters, just, "How can you say that?" It was just a lot of--there was a lot of people in the house, and I, thought it would be better if I wasn't there, to giving them more room to people.

# 3367 ROBERT BAKER:

This is on the 14th, we're talking about?

# 3368 KATO KAELIN:

I believe it was the 14th.

# 3369

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 3370 Q:

14th. Right? After Shapiro and Taft?

# 3371 A:

There were people all week for quite a while.

# 3372 Q:

This was after the Shapiro-Taft interview?

# 3373 A:

Yeah. Well, it happened after the Shapiro--the next day, and even before the Shapiro-Taft interview there were always people there.

# 3374 Q:

And you were not feeling comfortable?

# 3375 A:

No.

# 3376 Q:

And then you moved out?

# 3377 A:

I--yeah, I pretty much--my stuff was still there for a bit, but two of my friends picked it all up when I got a place.

# 3378 Q:

Let's go back in time now to when you first--no. Let me back up for a second. Had you ever in all the time that you knew O.J. Simpson --which was what length of time did you know O.J. Simpson?

# 3379 A:

About a year, a year and three months .

# 3380 Q:

Prior to what?

# 3381 A:

When I met Nicole. I met O.J. probably in February of '93.

# 3382 Q:

So from the time you met O.J. Simpson in February of '93 until Nicole's death in June of '94 is about a year and three months. Right?

# 3383 A:

Yeah.

# 3384 Q:

And during that year and three months, you lived at Gretna Green in the year 1993. Correct?

# 3385 A:

Correct.

# 3386 Q:

And you moved to Rockingham when?

# 3387 A:

In January of '94.

# 3388 Q:

So during this entire time that you knew O.J. Simpson and during the time that you lived at Rockingham, how many times did you and Mr. Simpson go out together alone?

# 3389 A:

From the time even on Gretna Green to that time of Nicole s death, maybe once, twice. Just us two?

# 3390 Q:

Yeah, just the two of you alone.

# 3391 A:

Right now I can't think of any at all, so I'm assuming maybe once.

# 3392 Q:

Don't assume anything.

# 3393 A:

Maybe never.

# 3394 Q:

Except for the McDonald's trip?

# 3395 A:

Yes.

# 3396 Q:

That's the only time?

# 3397 A:

Alone, yes.

# 3398 Q:

Okay. So the two of you never did anything as friends alone together, like go to the ball game or--

# 3399 A:

No.

# 3400 Q:

--anything like that?

# 3401 A:

No.

# 3402 Q:

And did the two of you ever--did he ever invite you for dinner in the house together?

# 3403 A:

Yeah. I had a dinner when Michelle would cook up like a special chicken. It would be--I could come in for that, and O.J. would be at the table. So I got an invite for that.

# 3404 Q:

How many times did that happen, where you and he ate alone in the Rockingham house?

# 3405 A:

Just he and I alone?

# 3406 Q:

Yeah.

# 3407 A:

Two times, two or three times maybe.

# 3408 Q:

During the time you were living there?

# 3409 A:

Yeah.

# 3410 Q:

And all told, do you have any estimation of how many hours you've ever spent with O.J. Simpson alone or with others?

# 3411 ROBERT BAKER:

Just so that I'm clear, are we talking about the time before he moved into the--

# 3412 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Yeah, starting from February of '93 all the way until Nicole's death.

# 3413 Q:

What are we talking about?

# 3414 A:

Total time of spending time together-- I want to distinguish from spending time to actually seeing him. If you could just maybe be more specific.

# 3415 Q:

Seeing him--well, spending time together.

# 3416 A:

Because seeing him would be different, right. If he saw if I just waved and he drove off, that would be different.

# 3417 Q:

No. I mean spending time together in his company.

# 3418 A:

You know, like 48 hours, 72 hours, around there.

# 3419 Q:

Total?

# 3420 A:

Total.

# 3421 Q:

Most of that with other people?

# 3422 Q:

Yes.

# 3423 Q:

Now, you first met Nicole in Aspen?

# 3424 A:

Yes.

# 3425 Q:

In December of what?

# 3426 A:

Of '92.

# 3427 Q:

And you spent some time with her and her friends and your friends. Right?

# 3428 A:

I didn't spend too much time with her really. My buddy did.

# 3429 Q:

And how did it come to be that you came to live in her house in Gretna Green?

# 3430 A:

My friend at that time was seeing her, you know, somewhat, and he said that she's throwing a party--

# 3431 Q:

Who is this friend?

# 3432 A:

Grant Cramer. He said. "She's throwing a party, so why don't we go to it." I said. "Oh, okay, Nicole from Aspen." I wasn't--you know, I wasn't really keeping in touch.

# 3433 Q:

When you met Nicole in Aspen, did you know that she was the former wife of O.J. Simpson?

# 3434 A:

I didn't know it until Grant Cramer told me.

# 3435 Q:

In Aspen?

# 3436 A:

Yeah. I didn't know it for quite a few hours. Then he said, "Do you know who that is and who I've [sic] been talking to?"

# 3437 Q:

I went. "No."

# 3438 Q:

How many days did you spend with Nicole and Grant in Aspen in '92, December?

# 3439 A:

I didn't spend too much time with them at all. They were together almost the entire time with Faye Resnick.

# 3440 Q:

Did Nicole talk to you about O.J. Simpson at all during that trip?

# 3441 A:

No. I mean, they were divorced. I think, but there wasn't too much talk about that. She was talking about some other guy.

# 3442 Q:

Do you know his name?

# 3443 A:

His name was Brett.

# 3444 Q:

Brett Shaves?

# 3445 A:

I think that's his name.

# 3446 Q:

And you came back to L.A. and sometime got an invite to a party?

# 3447 A:

Yes. When I saw Nicole in Aspen, the times I did see her I was always kinda goofing off and making her laugh and just being the third wheel. You know, if they were together. I was just the comic relief.

# 3448 Q:

Were you attracted to her sexually?

# 3449 A:

No.

# 3450 Q:

You came back to Los Angeles, and you went to her party. Is that what you said?

# 3451 A:

Yes.

# 3452 Q:

And when did that happen?

# 3453 A:

I think that happened two weeks after Aspen, so I'm thinking sometime in January.

# 3454 Q:

Where was the party?

# 3455 A:

At the Gretna Green house.

# 3456 Q:

And did you talk to her that evening?

# 3457 A:

Yeah. I talked to her a lot that evening. I mean, there was a lot of people there, but it was like kind of a reunion, so we got--I think I got more attention.

# 3458 Q:

Did you spend any private time with her that evening?

# 3459 A:

I think the private time, if it ever came up, was when I saw the guesthouse.

# 3460 Q:

That night?

# 3461 A:

That night.

# 3462 Q:

Tell me about that conversation when you saw the guesthouse.

# 3463 A:

So we got to the party, and it was pretty much packed, and there was a bartender and there was food everywhere. It was like, oh, my God, I can't believe this. I was expecting a quarter barrel, and you know, that kind of party, but it was like a classy party. I'm going, "Oh, my God, there's salmon and all." I go, "I'm not used to this kind of party." So we ate, and then just jokes throughout the whole night, and then I saw the house back there, and I said, "Who lives back there?" I go. "What a great pad." She goes. "No one lives there." I said, "Oh, could I?" And I was kind of joking. And she goes. "Yeah." And I said. "No, no. I'm serious. Can I live there?" And she says. "Yeah, I'm serious, too. You can have that place, and we'll work out some deal." I went--I kept going, "I'm really serious. I'm gonna do this." And I was living in Hermosa at the time. And that was pretty much it. Because I called like the next day or two. I said, "I hope you still remember," da, da, da. And she goes, "Yeah. Come check it out." I checked it out again there, and she goes, "You have to move out all the furniture, though." They had all this furniture and a treadmill and I think a Stairmaster. It was packed with stuff. She said, "If you move it all out, you can have the place."

# 3464 Q:

Okay. And you moved in shortly thereafter?

# 3465 A:

Yes.

# 3466 Q:

And you lived there for the rest of '93?

# 3467 A:

Yes.

# 3468 Q:

And during that period of time did you get--did you become close friends with Nicole?

# 3469 A:

Yes.

# 3470 Q:

What kind--How much time did you spend with Nicole alone?

# 3471 A:

There was times when I--the kids would always be around when I spent most of my time with Nicole. We never really had--it would be if Nicole went out, I'd watch the kids. But sometimes she would come by and talk to me about the night or just have times when the kids went to bed and I could come in. There was total access to the house if I wanted it. So if she was around to talk. she'd come downstairs and just talk to me.

# 3472 Q:

Did you have a key to get in the main house?

# 3473 A:

Yes.

# 3474 Q:

And did you and she eat dinners together?

# 3475 A:

Yeah, I ate dinners with their family and--

# 3476 Q:

You baby-sit the kids?

# 3477 Q:

Many times, yes

# 3478 Q:

Did she discuss with you personal matters?

# 3479 A:

Sometimes. yes.

# 3480 Q:

Did she share with you stories about men she was dating?

# 3481 A:

Yes.

# 3482 Q:

Who did she talk to you about as the year progressed?

# 3483 A:

About guys?

# 3484 Q:

Yeah.

# 3485 A:

One of the guys was obviously Grant at that time, and he was seeing someone else at the time, and one of the conversations was that he wasn't gonna see her anymore and that she told me he's never allowed in this house, and I went--"He can never come over, and if he comes over, you have to leave." She told me that. So I went, "Okay." So I told Grant that, and he went "Fine," so he never came by. The stuff about Brett Shaves, she had said that when she was in Aspen, he was starting to bug her, so she wanted to get rid of him, and I guess did by starting to see Grant. I didn't know too much about a guy named Joseph. She had mentioned a guy Joseph, that they were friends. I didn't know where it was in the relationship, but they seemed to be more friends than like daters, dating, and they kept in touch, I think, and...

# 3486 Q:

Did she tell you about a guy named [Name Deleted}?

# 3487 A:

I didn't know too much about dating a guy named [Name Deleted] .

# 3488 Q:

She never discussed [Name Deleted] with you?

# 3489 A:

Because I think she had mentioned something that she had seen him or not, but I looked and I thought, no way that guy was her type. So I didn't--until she told me--I think she told me, but it wasn't a thing that I had thought, this guy that she used to date. I think she brought it up once or twice.

# 3490 Q:

What about Marcus Allen? Did she discuss him with you?

# 3491 A:

She said certain things about Marcus at different parts of the relationship: That Marcus was--liked her more than she liked Marcus, and that I think it might have changed at one point, but at that time when I was there, it was kind of Marcus liking her more.

# 3492 Q:

You re talking about when you were living at Gretna Green in '93?

# 3493 A:

Gretna Green.

# 3494 Q:

She told you that she was seeing Marcus Allen and that he liked her more than she liked him.

# 3495 A:

Yeah, at certain parts. At certain times of weeks and months that he came by sometimes.

# 3496 Q:

Do you know when it was that she was dating him?

# 3497 A:

No. I can't give you--I don't want to take a guess. but I thought April.

# 3498 Q:

Did she say anything to you about whether Mr. Simpson should or should not know about her relationship with Marcus Allen?

# 3499 A:

I--yeah, that she shouldn't know --O.J. should not know about Marcus ever coming by, and if he ever came by, he would park somewhere different.

# 3500 Q:

Who would?

# 3501 A:

Marcus.

# 3502 Q:

Did she ever tell you not to tell Mr. Simpson about people who were there, like Marcus Allen?

# 3503 A:

Well. I tried not to--I mean, I knew kind of what was going on, but I wasn't going to say anything. I mean, I don't know what they were doing behind the closed doors and that, so I didn't--

# 3504 Q:

But she didn't tell you not to say anything to O.J.?

# 3505 A:

She didn't like say. "Don't say a thing." I think she was more like, "Boy, O.J. would go crazy or something he knew Marcus was here."

# 3506 Q:

In time did Nicole start to talk to you about her relationship with O.J. Simpson?

# 3507 A:

Yes.

# 3508 Q:

And did those conversations progress through the year?

# 3509 A:

Yes.

# 3510 Q:

Was there a time when they intensified?

# 3511 A:

There were points when the conversations would--she would say some intense things certain days and then say it again maybe three days later and say certain things, and I'd go "Really," things that I--like, "Kato you're being videotaped." And I go, "What?" And my phones were tapped. And she had said that O.J. would kill her one day. She said this.

# 3512 Q:

She told you those things.

# 3513 A:

She said this.

# 3514 Q:

Nicole Simpson told you that you were being videotaped by whom?

# 3515 A:

By O.J.

# 3516 Q:

And what else did you say? Somebody was spying on you?

# 3517 A:

She said --yeah, that "Your phone's tapped"--

# 3518 Q:

Who?

# 3519 A:

She was talking about O.J.

# 3520 Q:

That O.J. was spying on you, tapping your phones?

# 3521 A:

Spying or that my phones were probably tapped. And I would say. "Why?"

# 3522 Q:

What did she say?

# 3523 A:

"Because he's jealous." I said "Of me?"

# 3524 Q:

What did she say?

# 3525 A:

"Probably." I mean, it was--

# 3526 Q:

Did you and she ever have a romantic relationship?

# 3527 A:

Never.

# 3528 Q:

At any time?

# 3529 Q:

Never.

# 3530 Q:

Did you ever kiss her affectionately--

# 3531 A:

No.

# 3532 Q:

--romantically?

# 3533 A:

No.

# 3534 Q:

Did you ask her why O.J. Simpson would be jealous of you?

# 3535 A:

I'm sure I brought that up, but I would be going things like, "He'd be jealous of me?" Like that, and I think it was kind of just the reply would be, "Yeah," and it would end there.

# 3536 Q:

Now, you said Nicole told you that O.J. Simpson said that she--excuse me. You said that Nicole told you that O.J. Simpson told her that he would kill her.

# 3537 A:

Yes.

# 3538 MICHAEL PLOTKIN:

I don't think that properly characterizes the answer.

# 3539 KATO KAELIN:

Say it--

# 3540

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 3541 Q:

I didn't mean to, so I must have misunderstood you. Why don't you give me that testimony again.

# 3542 MICHAEL PLOTKIN:

You want to read it back?

# 3543 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

No.

# 3544 Q:

You can tell it to me again. What did she say--what did Nicole tell you about O.J. Simpson in that regard?

# 3545 A:

In sometimes talking with her, she said that she thought O.J. would kill her one day.

# 3546 Q:

Oh, she thought O.J. Simpson would kill her.

# 3547 A:

Yeah.

# 3548 Q:

Did she ever say that O.J. Simpson said that to her?

# 3549 A:

No,

# 3550 Q:

Are you sure?

# 3551 A:

I--he--it could have been said that way, I mean, I know that she said that she thought O.J. was going to kill her one day and that O.J. might have --she might have said that O.J. was going to kill her one day. I think. I can't be 100 percent positive, but it could have been part of the dialogue.

# 3552 Q:

Did you ask her why she thought that?

# 3553 A:

Yes.

# 3554 Q:

What did she tell you?

# 3555 A:

That he was jealous, jealous of her.

# 3556 Q:

Dating other men?

# 3557 A:

Partly dating other men.

# 3558 Q:

And partly what else?

# 3559 A:

I think being independent.

# 3560 Q:

That's what she told you?

# 3561 ROBERT BAKER:

When you say you "think," can we go back to your question what she told you?

# 3562

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 3563 Q:

Is that what Nicole told you, that O.J. Simpson was partly--was jealous in part because she was dating other men and in part because she was independent?

# 3564 ROBERT BAKER:

Again, leading.

# 3565 KATO KAELIN:

There is a thing that she thought if she was--at certain times in the relationship, if she could be not needing O.J., she said that would be driving him crazy because...

# 3566

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 3567 Q:

Nicole told you that if she could not be needing O.J., that would drive him crazy. Is that right?

# 3568 A:

Right. Because she would say to me that O.J. likes to manipulate. So he was going to manipulate other people around her and herself. So she would say that he was the king of manipulators, and so he could manipulate people.

# 3569 Q:

And what did Nicole tell you would drive O.J. crazy?

# 3570 A:

I think it was if she didn't need him anymore.

# 3571 Q:

These conversations occurred on an ongoing basis?

# 3572 A:

Not ongoing. It would be --it would happen certain times when she would have hot tea at the end of the night, on certain nights.

# 3573 Q:

Did she tell you why she and O.J. Simpson got divorced?

# 3574 A:

I think because--I think O.J. was seeing Paula at the time or there was another woman.

# 3575 Q:

Another woman?

# 3576 A:

Yes.

# 3577 Q:

Is that all she told you?

# 3578 A:

That I can remember right now, yes.

# 3579 Q:

Did Nicole Simpson ever talk to you about having been beaten by O.J. Simpson?

# 3580 A:

Yes.

# 3581 Q:

What did she say to you about that?

# 3582 A:

She told me about in 19---I think it was in New Year's Eve she talked about a party that O.J. beat her up. I believe it was the '89--I don't know if that's the '89 911 call, but it was an incident in '89, and I think I remember it being a New Year's Eve party, where she talked about getting beat up by O.J., and that's the one that I remember.

# 3583 Q:

Where were you and Nicole when she told you about this beating?

# 3584 A:

I believe right at the kitchen table at Gretna Green.

# 3585 Q:

When did that conversation occur?

# 3586 A:

Like just at night, like 10:00 o'clock or so. It was--

# 3587 Q:

What date?

# 3588 A:

Oh, when I was in Gretna Green. During the time I heard it more than once; that, you know, if I we had tea one night, she would bring it up again about possibly getting back, and she didn't want to get beat again, and so it was that story would come back. I heard it probably in March and in April.

# 3589 Q:

She would talk to you about whether or not to go back with O.J. Simpson?

# 3590 Q:

Yes.

# 3591 Q:

And in that--excuse me. In conversing about that, she would bring up that she didn't want to get beat up again?

# 3592 A:

Yes. It was that, and she had told me that sometimes O.J. had other women, and she didn't like--she had told me that in all the time she was with O.J. that she never cheated once and that she said she was totally faithful to O.J. during the relationship, and she couldn't understand why he didn't stay faithful, and caught him with other women.

# 3593 Q:

Nicole told you that she caught O.J. with other women during their marriage?

# 3594 A:

Well, one that I know.

# 3595 Q:

Who?

# 3596 A:

I don't know who the girl was, but it was at the--his house on Rockingham one time when they were married.

# 3597 Q:

Did Nicole ever talk to you about O.J. Simpson's treatment of her while she was pregnant?

# 3598 A:

Yes.

# 3599 Q:

What did she say to you about that subject?

# 3600 A:

At certain points when she was pregnant, O.J. said, "You re fat," and I think, "You're looking like a pig" or "You're getting fat."

# 3601 Q:

When Nicole told you these things, did you ever tell them to O.J. Simpson?

# 3602 A:

No.

# 3603 Q:

You were Nicole's friend then?

# 3604 A:

Yes.

# 3605 Q:

During the times of these conversations, did you know O.J. Simpson?

# 3606 A:

Did I--I met him.

# 3607 Q:

Did you know O.J. Simpson?

# 3608 A:

I--yeah, I knew--yeah. I met him like in February.

# 3609 Q:

Yeah.

# 3610 A:

But I didn't really hang out.

# 3611 Q:

No, but what I am asking you is: When she was talking to you about these stories about O.J. Simpson that you're relating, did you know who she was talking about?

# 3612 A:

Oh, yes.

# 3613 Q:

Had you met the man?

# 3614 A:

Yes.

# 3615 Q:

What did --Strike that. Did Nicole tell you how she had been beaten New Year's Eve, 1989?

# 3616 A:

Yeah. I think she said she got pushed around and got hit.

# 3617 Q:

Hit where?

# 3618 A:

In the face.

# 3619 Q:

She told you that?

# 3620 A:

Yeah, I'm pretty sure

# 3621 Q:

Did she say how O.J. Simpson hit her in the face?

# 3622 A:

With his hand.

# 3623 Q:

Did she say what happened to her as a result of being beaten?

# 3624 A:

Yeah. That she got bruised up, and she had--something was fractured. I think she fractured part of her head.

# 3625 Q:

Okay. And did she--I'm sorry. Had you completed your answer?

# 3626 A:

Yes. That she had fractured her head. I think it was from a fall or from a hit.

# 3627 Q:

Did she tell you whether the police had come out that evening?

# 3628 A:

Yes.

# 3629 Q:

What did she say about that?

# 3630 A:

That the police came out there, and I think she said she was in her underwear and bra, and the police came by. I think the cop gave her a coat or something like that. And said "O.J.'s beating me," or something like that. And they said something like "Don't let him off," or--don't know the exact words. Like, "He did it, so take him in," or something like that.

# 3631 Q:

Did she tell you whether or not the police took him in?

# 3632 A:

I think they did not. So--

# 3633 Q:

What did she tell you?

# 3634 A:

I think she said, "The cops didn't take him in. They said it was O.J. Simpson, so they didn't want to take him in."

# 3635 Q:

That's what she told you?

# 3636 A:

I'm pretty positive . It was in reference to him being O.J. Simpson.

# 3637 Q:

And getting special treatment?

# 3638 A:

Yes.

# 3639 ROBERT BAKER:

That's leading.

# 3640

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 3641 Q:

Did she tell you whether or not the police pressed charges?

# 3642 A:

That they didn't

# 3643 Q:

They did not?

# 3644 A:

That--I don't know how it works, but thought that she didn't press the charges. I don't know if the person has to press the charges, but there was no charges pressed.

# 3645 Q:

Did she tell you why she did not press charges?

# 3646 Q:

I think because O.J. came outside, and I think there was like a--they reconciled it. I don't know if the police had talked--I don't know the exact--

# 3647 Q:

What I am asking you, Mr. Kaelin, is what she said to you. Okay? Just--

# 3648 A:

The dialogue, I can't remember.

# 3649 Q:

Okay. But the substance of it, did she say anything to you about why she had not pursued legal action against him?

# 3650 A:

I don't remember the answer.

# 3651 Q:

Did she tell you about any other beatings?

# 3652 A:

Specifically I think there was another beating, but I can't remember the beating offhand. I remember there might have been something where mentioned about --or she found a woman in the guesthouse one time, and I don't know if there was a beating or not, but it was I think when she was pregnant, but I don't know if there was a beating involved.

# 3653 Q:

And you are relating to me what Nicole told you?

# 3654 A:

What Nicole had said.

# 3655 Q:

To you?

# 3656 A:

Yes, to me.

# 3657 Q:

During these conversations that you have been relating, was there anyone else present?

# 3658 A:

No.

# 3659 Q:

Did Nicole ever discuss with you the effect of the beatings on her children?

# 3660 A:

Yeah. She said that she thought Sydney --I used to say, "God, Sydney's like six or so or seven," and she has this thing called a "nuck" or whatever. It was a blanket, and she'd suck these fingers at all times, and she said she--Nicole would say that she's doing that, she was like desensitized from all the shouting that went on, and she could sleep through all the fighting, and that's amazing.

# 3661 Q:

That's what Nicole told you?

# 3662 A:

That's what Nicole told me.

# 3663 Q:

Did she ever tell you whether either Sydney or Justin had ever witnessed a beating?

# 3664 ROBERT BAKER:

There was one--

# 3665 MR. SIMPSON:

He said one beating.

# 3666 ROBERT BAKER:

There is one beating that he's talked about. When you say "beating" and "beatings"-- You've got to be quiet, O.J.

# 3667 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

I just said "witnessed a beating."

# 3668 ROBERT BAKER:

Well. you talked about beatings when you were talking about this.

# 3669 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

MR. Simpson needs to not talk, because it could have an effect on the witness.

# 3670 Q:

But in any event, what my question was, is--

# 3671 ROBERT BAKER:

If I could control Mr. Simpson...

(Pending question read as follows:

# 3672 Q:

Did she ever tell you whether either Sydney or Justin had ever witnessed a beating?"

# 3673

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 3674 Q:

You may answer.

# 3675 A:

I believe Nicole said Sydney had seen a beating or a very big argument at one time and went right to bed and was--she was relating that she was used to it, the arguments, and Sydney would go to bed and sleep through it.

# 3676 Q:

Did Nicole ever tell you whether or not she ever received medical treatment for a beating by O.J. Simpson?

# 3677 A:

I believe that was when she got a fractured skull, and she went to the hospital, and it was from--I don't know if it was a fall or it was from the hit, but it was related to the beating, to the fight they had, that she injured something, that I believe it was a fractured skull.

# 3678 Q:

Did Nicole tell you what she informed the doctor when she went to seek medical treatment?

# 3679 A:

What she informed the doctor.

# 3680 Q:

Yes.

# 3681 A:

I believe it was a fractured skull.

# 3682 Q:

Did she tell you whether she told the doctor that she had suffered it as a result of a beating?

# 3683 A:

I don't think she did.

# 3684 Q:

What did she tell you in that regard?

# 3685 A:

I believe it was that she got it from a fall, and she didn't admit to the beating.

# 3686 Q:

That's what I'm trying to find out, whether or not she told the doctor about the meeting--excuse me--about the beating.

# 3687 A:

She didn't tell the doctor about the beating. It was from something else. What it was, I don't remember.

# 3688 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

I'm really having trouble concentrating with Mr. Simpson's talking.

# 3689 Q:

You're telling me that Nicole told you that she told the doctor that the injuries occurred from something else.

# 3690 A:

Yes.

# 3691 Q:

Not the beating.

# 3692 A:

To the doctor. She was telling--she was basically lying to the doctor of what really happened.

# 3693 Q:

Did she tell you why she had done so?

# 3694 A:

I think she was embarrassed.

# 3695 Q:

Are these conversations that Nicole had with you after a time that you and she got close?

# 3696 A:

Yeah. I believe in our relationship we got close pretty fast, though. I mean, it was the thing that she trusted me with her children, so I thought it was--that's what the basis was, that she saw that I was trusting with the kids, and I think that made her open up to tell me things. So I think, you know, she opened up --she trusted me in telling me things.

# 3697 Q:

How do you know she trusted you?

# 3698 A:

I think anybody that's a mother that would give their kids to me while she went out would have to be pretty trusting of me.

# 3699 Q:

Mothers leave their children with baby-sitters they've never met before.

# 3700 A:

I think that. I think having the key to the house. I think she felt comfortable, if there was money laying around, she knew I would never take anything. I just think the little things just made her trust me.

# 3701 Q:

Did you and she spend many hours talking together?

# 3702 A:

Yeah.

# 3703 Q:

Did Nicole ever express her feelings for you?

# 3704 A:

Yes.

# 3705 Q:

What did she say to you?

# 3706 A:

She had told me one day that--one night that--she goes, "I think I'm falling in love with you." And I said, "No, no, no, you're not. We're friends and that's"--at one point she had said that, but I knew--I thought it was just--it couldn't be. I thought it was just she had said because I was good with the kids. And I was on a date when it happened, and she said I was so polite opening the door and all that stuff, and I went--and I had the date in the room, so I said "No."

# 3707 Q:

When Nicole told you that she thought she was falling in love with you, did you think she was kidding around?

# 3708 A:

I thought it was somewhat--I knew it wasn't--she wasn't falling in love like "Let's get married" love, so--

# 3709 Q:

You thought it was a joke?

# 3710 ROBERT BAKER:

Can I just have the last of the last answer because you answered--your question came out on the heels.

# 3711 (Answer read from Page 284, Line 24 to Page 282, Line 9.)

# 3712 KATO KAELIN:

That's enough. That sounded too much like me.

# 3713 MICHAEL PLOTKIN:

That sounds like a hit rap song.

# 3714 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Okay, let's go back.

# 3715 Q:

What I am trying to find out is when Nicole told you that she thought she was falling in love with you, do you think she was expressing real feelings to you, or was she joking with you? How did you take and understand her statements?

# 3716 A:

Okay. Now, I took it as not a joke, but it wasn't plausible for it to ever happen because I wasn't attracted to her in a romantic way, and I think that's pretty much where it stopped.

# 3717 Q:

You were not attracted to her.

# 3718 A:

Was not attracted to her romantically. And the period after that, it was like no talking for a week because I had said that.

# 3719 Q:

What did you say to Nicole when she said she thought she was falling in love with you?

# 3720 A:

That it couldn't happen. "I could not be romantic with you, and I think at this moment you're just saying that," because it was a night that we had gone out and had drinks.

# 3721 Q:

You and Nicole?

# 3722 A:

I wasn't really drinking. Nicole had some drinks.

# 3723 Q:

Where did you and Nicole go that evening?

# 3724 A:

It was four people.

# 3725 Q:

Who went?

# 3726 A:

It was my friend Kelly, and Nicole was with Marcus Allen and myself.

# 3727 Q:

Is Kelly a woman?

# 3728 A:

Kelly's a woman.

# 3729 Q:

What's Kelly's last name?

# 3730 A:

No idea.

# 3731 Q:

Did Nicole make this comment to you about falling in love before or after you had drinks?

# 3732 A:

After.

# 3733 Q:

When was this?

# 3734 A:

This happened when I was living at Gretna Green. I would say it happened maybe in April, May.

# 3735 Q:

1993?

# 3736 A:

1993.

# 3737 Q:

Do you believe, based on living with Nicole, that she felt comfortable being with you?

# 3738 A:

Yes.

# 3739 Q:

Did she ever undress in front or you?

# 3740 A:

Not undress in front of me, but she was at the pool topless.

# 3741 Q:

Knowing you were around?

# 3742 A:

Well, I mean, I think she just did it anyways. I think she knew I was around. But like when I had my daughter there and she would do it, my daughter would just go, "Why is she doing that?" I said, "It's okay. We'll walk out," and we'd walk out, head down. It wasn't --she just did it.

# 3743 Q:

Did there come a time when--Well, first of all, have you told me everything that you can remember about Nicole being beaten by O.J. Simpson that Nicole told you?

# 3744 A:

From this moment right now, from what I can think of, I can't--that s it, but...

# 3745 Q:

Did there come a time when Nicole told you that she was attempting a reconciliation with O.J. Simpson?

# 3746 A:

Yes.

# 3747 Q:

Do you remember when that was?

# 3748 A:

It could have been in May, but I think I mentioned before that it was a constant kind of reconciliation in the time I was at Gretna Green.

# 3749 Q:

The first time, I'm talking about.

# 3750 A:

The first time was probably in March, reconciliation in March.

# 3751 Q:

When you moved into Gretna Green--

# 3752 A:

Correct.

# 3753 Q:

--was there a time where Nicole was not seeing Mr. Simpson?

# 3754 A:

Yeah. It was January, February he would come by and get the kids. I believe--

# 3755 Q:

I meant, you know trying to reconcile with him. Was there a few months where there wasn't any effort to reconcile?

# 3756 A:

I thought maybe the first three months, although he came by and got the kids and that. but there was no contact that I remember seeing, and then it maybe happened possibly in May.

# 3757 Q:

Now, when it happened, did Nicole tell you. "I'm going to try to get back with O.J."?

# 3758 A:

I believe so.

# 3759 Q:

When she told you, do you know whether you had already heard from her about her prior beating or beatings?

# 3760 Q:

I had heard from her already, yes, before that.

# 3761 Q:

About the jealousy and so forth. Right?

# 3762 A:

Yes.

# 3763 Q:

Now, did you say anything to her to the effect of, "Why are you going back with O.J. Simpson?"

# 3764 A:

I believe so.

# 3765 Q:

And what did she say?

# 3766 A:

That she was in love and she wanted to make it work again.

# 3767 Q:

And did she tell you anything about whether O.J. had changed?

# 3768 A:

I think so.

# 3769 Q:

What did she say?

# 3770 A:

That he was going to be committed to her, that I believe that he was done seeing Paula, I think it was all over, and I think they were going to try to make it work, just those two together again.

# 3771 Q:

Monogamous?

# 3772 A:

Yes.

# 3773 Q:

Did she tell you about whether she was satisfied there would be no beating in the future, no physical abuse?

# 3774 A:

I believe so.

# 3775 Q:

What did she say on that?

# 3776 A:

I think she just said that there was they're gonna make the relationship work. I think if there was going to be a beating, she'd never see him again, that if there was--that O.J. said there would be like no fighting. I think they were just trying to make it work and--

# 3777 Q:

I am not asking what they were trying to do. What she told you when she first told you about her getting, back together with O.J.?

# 3778 A:

I think that was it.

# 3779 Q:

And did you then observe that she and Mr. Simpson began seeing each other again?

# 3780 A:

Yes.

# 3781 Q:

And from that point on, do you know whether--

# 3782 ROBERT BAKER:

You say "again." Had he ever observed it before? Because I don't--

# 3783 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

That's true. He had never observed it before.

# 3784 ROBERT BAKER:

I don't think he had, from the testimony.

# 3785

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 3786 Q:

This was the first time when O.J. began to see Nicole that you had ever seen them as a couple. Right?

# 3787 A:

Yeah, --like I said, O.J. had come by a few times, though, to Gretna Green, but this was--this was when they were dating. But, you know, sometimes he came by with the kids--or he would see the kids. Sydney and Justin, and she'd be there, and--but it was a thing where there was some talking going on, but I don't think the dating process had started yet.

# 3788 Q:

When did it start?

# 3789 A:

I thought the dating process started I think in May.

# 3790 Q:

May? And when the dating process started, did Nicole continue to confide in you?

# 3791 A:

I believe so.

# 3792 Q:

About her relationship with Mr. Simpson?

# 3793 A:

Yes.

# 3794 Q:

And do you know whether, starting in May when you believe they began to date again, whether Nicole saw other men in addition to O.J.?

# 3795 A:

Well, there was a period where they--that O.J. and Nicole went on a vacation that I thought that was in my mind their reconciliation trip was going to take place, where she went--I don't know, think it might have been Cabo. But there was a trip they took together, and I think it was after the Marcus incident, and they were going to try to make it work, their relationship.

# 3796 Q:

That's what she told you?

# 3797 A:

Yes. And the first--the trip--I asked her how the trip was, and I believe she said the first two days were just terrible, and then it got better after that.

# 3798 Q:

During this period of time in 1993, do you know who Nicole's best friends were?

# 3799 A:

Yes. I would say her best friend was Cora Fishman. She hung out with Faye Resnick. She hung with Chris Jenner, a girl named Cici. Don't know her last name. I think that was it. It was kinda like that it was Cora and Cici. and mostly Cora would go running every day. They'd go on runs. But I thought Cora was the closest one she said was a friend, and sometimes she said different things about Faye Resnick.

# 3800 Q:

When Nicole and O.J. started to date again, did Nicole tell you about any ground rules that the two of them had established for their reconciliation?

# 3801 A:

There was something about I believe not seeing anybody else, and that was it. If they were going to do it, it had to be just those two.

# 3802 Q:

Do you know whether Nicole abided by that?

# 3803 A:

I believe she did.

# 3804 Q:

When she started to date O.J. Simpson, did you begin to develop a friendship of your own with Mr. Simpson?

# 3805 A:

Yeah. When they were together, I thought it was--when those two were together and all that, I was supportive of them making it work.

# 3806 Q:

You began to talk to him--

# 3807 A:

Yes.

# 3808 Q:

--O.J. Simpson--

# 3809 A:

Yes.

# 3810 Q:

--when he would come over to the house?

# 3811 A:

Yes.

# 3812 Q:

As the year progressed, did you ever see them get into any arguments?

# 3813 A:

Yes.

# 3814 Q:

On how many occasions?

# 3815 A:

Maybe two or three.

# 3816 Q:

In your presence?

# 3817 A:

There were like not so much an argument, it was like a quiet time where you could tell there was something going on. There was no talking going on. So it would be a situation where, if there was no talking going on, I knew something was wrong.

# 3818 Q:

Did you ever in your presence witness a very loud argument between them?

# 3819 A:

Oh, yes. There was --I came home--

# 3820 Q:

On how many occasions?

# 3821 A:

One that I know for sure.

# 3822 Q:

Can you remember more than one?

# 3823 A:

Yes. There was another one at a Christmas party, and there was one also of a 911 call.

# 3824 Q:

So how many in all do you remember?

# 3825 A:

That I remember, two for sure.

# 3826 Q:

What's the earlier of the two?

# 3827 A:

The earlier one would be the one at the 911 call, and I think it was October.

# 3828 Q:

1993?

# 3829 A:

Yes.

# 3830 Q:

Tell me what you remember about October of 1993.

# 3831 A:

I know that I saw that the Bronco was parked kind of in front of Gretna Green with the flashers on. I went, "Oh. O.J.'s here." So I was coming back from I don't know where, but I was coming back from somewhere, and I started going in the back of the house in Gretna Green, and I heard shouting going on, and in the process--there was a fight already in progress when I got there. So I went right to the guest house because I knew there was shouting going on, and it was loud shouting. So I saw that the French doors to the Greta Green house were open already, and O.J. was yelling at Nicole, and I saw that she was on the phone in the kitchen, and they were about 10 feet apart. And I saw it was escalating, that the voices were getting higher and he was screaming louder. and I put my head out of the guesthouse, and then I finally said, I'm going to go out there and find out what's going on. I said, "What are you guys fighting about?" And then he turned to me and started kind of directing the energy to me of the yelling, and it was a lot of shouting about the National Enquirer, that there was some kind of article printed in the National Enquirer. "They're always picking on me." And then at some point he went to a door. In the bottom level there's a door that was locked in the Gretna Green house, and it was locked, and he was going--trying to open it and said, "Who's in there?" And I kinda looked at Nicole and went, "Is someone in there?" I thought there was a guy in there, in the house. And I was going, "Oh my God, I hope he knows there's like a back door. I don't want something to happen here." And then there was a picture--there was a lot of shouting about some picture that Nicole had up in the house of an ex-boyfriend, and then I just remember Nicole on the phone crying and calling 911, and then the police came.

# 3832 Q:

When O.J.--when you heard O.J. yelling and screaming, was it intense?

# 3833 ROBERT BAKER:

He didn't say O.J. He said he heard yelling and screaming.

# 3834

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 3835 Q:

Oh, did you hear O.J. Simpson yell and scream?

# 3836 A:

Yes, I heard O.J.

# 3837 Q:

Was it intense?

# 3838 A:

Yes.

# 3839 Q:

Now, you said at one point he turned and directed his statements to you.

# 3840 ROBERT BAKER:

He said they turned and directed the statements to him--

# 3841

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 3842 Q:

Who turned?

# 3843 ROBERT BAKER:

--not O.J.

BY MR. PETROCELLI: Q: Who turned?

# 3844 A:

Well, it was--when I came there, it was O.J. that was telling me the events that were happening, so I made sure that it was going towards me while Nicole was on the phone.

# 3845 Q:

So you had sort of engaged him one on one?

# 3846 A:

Yes.

# 3847 Q:

And Nicole is on the phone?

# 3848 A:

Yes.

# 3849 Q:

What is O.J. telling you at that point?

# 3850 A:

He was telling me--I didn't--I wasn't making sense of all the things that he was talking about because I don't know what was going on. I kept thinking, there's someone in that room. In my head I'm going, there's someone in that room. I'm going, oh, boy. And then he was just talking about some picture she had up, that he doesn't have pictures at his house up. The National Enquirer had put some bad article about him, and I believe it was about [Name Deleted]. I didn't understand that whole dialogue going on about having oral sex in the living room. I didn't understand that until later, what that was all about, because I didn't know what he was talking I about.

# 3851 Q:

But you--what you're saving is that Mr. Simpson was talking about at that time [Name Deleted] and Nicole having oral sex?

# 3852 A:

Correct.

# 3853 Q:

But you didn't know who [Name Deleted] was. Right?

# 3854 A:

I knew--I think I had met the guy. I didn't associate it as that guy.

# 3855 Q:

I see. And was there any property damage?

# 3856 A:

Yes. The French doors were broken, were kicked in, I guess, and I fixed them when the cops left.

# 3857 Q:

Were they broken before this day to your knowledge?

# 3858 A:

No. No.

# 3859 Q:

Had you ever fixed those doors before?

# 3860 A:

No. No, I--they had to have a guy come out, actually.

# 3861 Q:

You fixed them temporarily?

# 3862 A:

Yeah, just had them closed, so it was like putting nails in them so they would stay locked, you know, temporarily, until the guy would come out.

# 3863 Q:

At some point the cops came?

# 3864 A:

Yes.

# 3865 Q:

Was Nicole on the phone that entire time until the cops came?

# 3866 A:

I only saw her on the phone the time that was there.

# 3867 Q:

The whole time you were there, you only saw her on the phone.

# 3868 A:

Correct.

# 3869 Q:

So initially when you got there, you went into the guesthouse.

# 3870 A:

Yes. I didn't want to make it my business, that I had nothing to do with it, so I let them, you know, deal with whatever was going on themselves, and then I--

# 3871 Q:

And then you heard the yelling and screaming from the guesthouse?

# 3872 A:

Then I put my head out, and then I walked out.

# 3873 Q:

Is that the first time you heard Mr. Simpson yell and scream?

# 3874 A:

Yes.

# 3875 Q:

After the police came did Mr. Simpson at some time leave?

# 3876 A:

Yes.

# 3877 Q:

And then you were there with Nicole?

# 3878 A:

Yes.

# 3879 Q:

Did Nicole leave?

# 3880 A:

No.

# 3881 Q:

Did you and she then talk about what had transpired?

# 3882 A:

Yes.

# 3883 Q:

And tell me what you and she discussed.

# 3884 A:

She was talking about what the yelling was all about, about some picture. That's what I thought it was, some picture of a guy she had up there, just a friend that she used to date or--and that O.J. she said had blown up over that. And so I fixed the door, and I don't know if she talked about the police report, if there was a police report filled out. I don't remember if there was. The cops just gave cards out to them, cards to her to call if anything ever happened again, and --but when the cops came, they all went to my room with O.J. to talk to him, in that same story.

# 3885 Q:

In your presence?

# 3886 A:

Yes. Well, they said, "Who's this guy? And he said, "Oh, He's okay," but they all talked in my room. They had two with O.J., two with her. And then I said, "I'll go," so I just waited outside while they talked.

# 3887 Q:

Did you hear what O.J. said to the police?

# 3888 A:

Part of it, I heard.

# 3889 Q:

What did he say?

# 3890 A:

Was, "We're just having an argument." And then I exited, I think, out of there. I was--it was their thing, so went off by the pool area.

# 3891 Q:

Now, where was the Bronco when you drove up to Gretna Green?

# 3892 A:

The Bronco was kind of parked in front of the driveway, blocking Gretna Green's driveway. The flashers I believe were on. And I think at some point I moved it, I think.

# 3893 Q:

To park it normally?

# 3894 A:

Yeah.

# 3895 Q:

Did Nicole tell you how she felt later on that evening about this incident?

# 3896 A:

I think so. I don't remember the words.

# 3897 Q:

Okay. Now, when is the next time that you remember witnessing an argument between the two of them?

# 3898 (Peter Gelblum enters the deposition.)

# 3899 ROBERT BAKER:

Does Peter know what happened at 3:15? Peter, do you know--Can we just go off the record?

# 3900 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

They stipulated that earlier today. Was there a hearing Peter?

# 3901 PETER GELBLUM:

Yeah.

# 3902 DANIEL PETROCELLI:

Let's go off the record.

THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 4:31.

# 3903 (Discussion held off the record.)

# 3904 (ENDING TIME: 4:34 P.M.)

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (5)

Brian Kaelin

These women. I just don't understand them.

Kaelin recounts OJ saying this to neighbor Ron Fishman on June 11, revealing OJ's agitated emotional state toward Nicole the day before the murders.

Brian Kaelin

I'll see that there will be some kind of trouble with the IRS. She'll get in trouble with the IRS.

Kaelin attributes this threat to OJ Simpson, demonstrating hostility and intent to harm Nicole financially in the days before the murders.

Brian Kaelin

O.J. had said that he already had kids and he was--you know, he doesn't want more kids. So it was kind of like Paula's probably not the one.

Establishes OJ's ambivalence toward Paula Barbieri, his stated girlfriend, just before the murders — relevant to motive and emotional state.

Brian Kaelin

I had mentioned jacuzzi because I didn't want to hear, you know, how--the upset.

Kaelin confirms he felt genuine tension emanating from OJ after the recital — corroborating OJ's agitated emotional state on the evening of June 12.

Brian Kaelin

O.J. had said, 'Nicole gave me back this bracelet, and I'm going to give it to Paula.'

Reveals OJ symbolically transferring Nicole's returned jewelry to Paula, suggesting a deliberate severing of the Nicole relationship.

Evidence (3)

Exhibit 27

Sketch/diagram of the Rockingham property showing Ashford Street, gates, driveway, mailbox, pool, guesthouse path, and front entrance

Used extensively to establish Kaelin's daily movements, parking locations, gate access, and sightlines to the front entrance

Informal

Tape recordings of prior Kaelin interviews with 'Eliot' (investigator), used to refresh Kaelin's recollection about feeling tension and using the jacuzzi as an escape

Petrocelli reads from tape transcript to impeach/refresh; Baker asks for page reference

Informal

Playboy magazine featuring Tracy Adell, retrieved by Kaelin from a San Vicente market on June 11 at OJ's request

Discussed as part of OJ's attempt to meet new women after Nicole breakup; OJ's reaction ('not his type, liked blondes') recorded

Notable Exchanges (4)

Daniel Petrocelli•Phillip Baker

Recurring battle over Petrocelli interrupting Kaelin mid-answer. Baker repeatedly objects; Petrocelli argues Kaelin's halting speech pattern makes it impossible to know when he is finished. Kaelin himself acknowledges he has a halting speech pattern.

heated

Daniel Petrocelli•Phillip Baker

Petrocelli states OJ's statements are admissions and thus not hearsay; Baker retorts: 'It is hearsay. The last time I checked, you don't have a black robe on, Dan.' Petrocelli replies: 'It'll be a long time before I wear a black robe, Mr. Baker.'

sharp and sardonic

O.J. Simpson•Daniel Petrocelli

While Kaelin testifies about OJ being upset over not seeing his kids, OJ audibly interjects 'Kids?' from the table. Petrocelli immediately puts on the record that Simpson must not make audible comments. Baker tells him to just continue.

charged

Michael Plotkin•Phillip Baker

Kaelin's own attorney Plotkin intervenes to suggest audible reactions should stop and that he knows Kaelin's speech pattern better than either attorney. Baker snaps at him; Plotkin deflects with light sarcasm.

strategic with dark humor

Light Moments (3)

Daniel Petrocelli / Brian Kaelin

Petrocelli formally acknowledges Kaelin's halting speech pattern on the record and apologizes, and Kaelin agrees: 'That's true. I do.'

Brian Kaelin

Kaelin recounts doing a prank phone call at OJ's house on June 11 — disguising his voice as a 'very effeminate' hair salon worker to trick OJ's friend on the phone.

Michael Plotkin

Plotkin, after Baker challenges him to speak up for his client, responds: 'I thought you were doing a wonderful job yourself.'

Credibility Attacks (2)

⚔ Brian Kaelin

Prior inconsistent statement / refreshing recollection

Petrocelli reads from tape recordings of prior Kaelin interviews with investigator 'Eliot,' quoting Kaelin saying he mentioned the jacuzzi 'because I didn't want to hear the upset.' Used to pin down Kaelin's recollection about feeling tension with OJ after the recital.

⚔ Brian Kaelin

Contradiction by omission

Petrocelli establishes through repeated closed questions (Did he ask for change? Did he ask you out? Did he ask you to dinner?) that June 11 interactions differed from June 12 — laying groundwork to highlight what was unusual about the June 12 burger request that Kaelin's prior testimony described.

Witness Demeanor

Halting, non-linear speech pattern acknowledged on record by both Kaelin and Petrocelli

Frequently hedges recollection with 'I think,' 'I believe,' 'I'm not positive'

Requests 30-second break mid-testimony ('Could I have 30 seconds real quick?')

At times mimics OJ's voice and manner to illustrate conversations (indicated by stage direction '(sound)')

Appears cooperative but wanders in answers, prompting constant redirection

Objections

28 objections (0 sustained, 0 overruled)

Kato Kaelin Deposition • Day 1 • 1 examination • 3,904 utterances

Civil Case Deposition

1996