Direct examination of Ms. Fischman by Daniel Petrocelli

📄 Direct examination of Ms. Fischman by Daniel Petrocelli — Wednesday, March 20, 1996

Address:

C:\DEPT103\DEPOSITION\1996\MAR\20\DIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-MS-FISCH.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 19 of 31

◀ Direct examination of Ms. Fischman by Daniel Petrocelli Cross-examination of Ms. Fischman by Robert Baker ▶

Witness: Ms. Fischman
Examiner: Daniel Petrocelli
Called by: Plaintiff • Date: Wednesday, March 20, 1996 • Utterances: 2602

Petrocelli conducts a wide-ranging examination of Cora Fischman, Nicole Simpson's closest friend, covering Nicole's relationships after leaving OJ (Alessandro, Keith, Marcus Allen, and several others), the 1993 reconciliation and its ground rules, OJ's persistent jealousy and his conversations with Cora about Nicole. The session also reveals that Nicole called Cora's boyfriend [Name Deleted] at 2 a.m. on June 12 — the morning of her murder — telling him to stop seeing Cora, and that Nicole and [Name Deleted] then spoke for an hour the following morning just hours before her death.

# 1 MR. PETROCELLI:

Daniel Petrocelli for Fredric Goldman.

# 2 MR. BREWER:

Michael Brewer for Plaintiff Sharon Rufo.

# 3 MS. ROIT:

Natasha Roit for Plaintiff Brown.

# 4 MR. KELLY:

John Kelly for Plaintiff Brown.

# 5 MR. BAKER:

Phil Baker for OJ. Simpson.

# 6 MR. KRAMER:

Philip Kramer for witness Cora Fischman.

# 7

CORA A. FISCHMAN, having been previously sworn, was examined and testified further as follows:

# 8

EXAMINATION

# 9

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 10 Q:

Morning, Miss Fischman.

# 11 A:

Good morning.

# 12 Q:

Have you done anything to prepare for today's session of the deposition?

# 13 A:

Not really. I just looked for the photos.

# 14 MR. KELLY:

Can you speak up a little, Miss Fischman? I can't hear you.

# 15 MS. FISCHMAN:

Have I done anything?

# 16

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 17 Q:

Yes. Have you read anything, have you talked to anyone, have you done anything since you left here yesterday-

# 18 A:

No.

# 19 Q:

-other than to give a press conference to say that you were not sleeping with OJ. Simpson?

# 20 A:

That's pretty much, yes, what I did.

# 21 Q:

Okay. You haven't read anything at all?

# 22 A:

No.

# 23 Q:

Did you talk to anybody other than Mr. Kramer?

# 24 A:

I spoke to him, yeah, this morning.

# 25 Q:

Is that the only person?

# 26 A:

Yes.

# 27 Q:

Now, before yesterday's deposition session did you do anything at all to get ready for or prepare for the deposition?

# 28 A:

I spoke to Mr. Kramer.

# 29 Q:

Did you speak to anyone else?

# 30 A:

That's pretty much...That's pretty much who I spoke to.

# 31 Q:

"Pretty much"? What does that mean?

# 32 A:

Well, I spoke to my lawyer-not my lawyer-Mr. Williams in-did I speak-

# 33 Q:

John Taylor Williams?

# 34 A:

Yes. Yes. Oh, no, I didn't speak to him yesterday.

# 35 Q:

I don't mean conversations yesterday. I mean any conversation about the deposition, about getting ready for the deposition, to prepare for the deposition.

# 36 A:

No, I didn't speak. Only Mr. Kramer.

# 37 Q:

And did you review or read any materials-

# 38 A:

No.

# 39 Q:

-for that purpose? No?

# 40 A:

No.

# 41 Q:

Now, yesterday you had said to us that you paid no attention to the subpoena. Now, I asked you to go back and review all of your files, records and documents and anything else that you might have in response to the subpoena. Have you done so?

# 42 A:

Yes.

# 43 Q:

What did you search?

# 44 A:

I looked-I tried to look for the Brooke Skulski book notes, and I couldn't find that, so - and the picture that you told me, I couldn't- you know, see, the picture that you told me about OJ., I gave that to Shapiro and to Marcia Clark, so I couldn't find it.

# 45 Q:

Well, did you look through all of your possessions and belongings for anything relating to Simpson, Mr. Simpson.

# 46 A:

Yes.

# 47 Q:

-or Nicole?

# 48 A:

Yes.

# 49 Q:

You found nothing?

# 50 A:

# 51 Q:

No other photographs?

# 52 A:

No more.

# 53 Q:

You don't have a single other picture that you took in the many year of your relationship with Nicole?

# 54 A:

You're talking about pictures of Nicole and my kids? There are a lot of pictures of my kids with Sydney and Justin.

# 55 Q:

Yeah.

# 56 A:

But I don't have pictures, you know- Nicole and I, our picture together was just my birthday party. I mean, we didn't take a lot of pictures of ourselves, so...

# 57 Q:

Do you have pictures of Nicole and you at a birthday party?

# 58 A:

My birthday party, 1993.

# 59 Q:

1993.

# 60 A:

Right.

# 61 Q:

Do you have any pictures of Nicole other than that picture?

# 62 A:

No, that's it.

# 63 Q:

Do you have any pictures of OJ. Simpson other than what you produced yesterday?

# 64 A:

That's pretty much it.

# 65 MR. KRAMER:

Well, she also testified that she had a picture that she gave to Mr. Shapiro-

# 66 MR. PETROCELLI:

Yes.

# 67 MR. KRAMER:

-and Miss Clark.

# 68

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 69 Q:

Other than the Shapiro picture and the one that you produced yesterday?

# 70 A:

That's pretty much the pictures that we have.

# 71 Q:

Do you have any videotapes?

# 72 A:

No, no video.

# 73 Q:

Does Ron Fischman have any, to your knowledge, photographs and/or videotapes of OJ. Simpson?

# 74 A:

We don't have video. We never took videotapes.

# 75 Q:

Does Mr. Simpson have photographs of- does Mr. Fischman have photographs of OJ. Simpson?

# 76 A:

I don't know.

# 77 Q:

Okay. What is [Name Deleted]'s last name?

# 78 MR. KRAMER:

Hold it. Wait a second. Is there-I-let me first explore whether there is some other way to do this rather than having this put in the transcript.

# 79 MR. PETROCELLI:

Well, I intend to take [Name Deleted]'s deposition, and I need to know his name and I need to know where he lives so that I can subpoena him.

# 80 MR. BAKER:

Object to all this as irrelevant.

# 81 MR. PETROCELLI:

You can object, but, you know, I am still entitled to the information. It's a discovery process, and he may have relevant information concerning these murders, and I intend to ask him.

# 82 MR. KRAMER:

I understand your desire to know and that this may be reasonably calculated to lead to the discovery of admissible evidence.

# 83 MR. PETROCELLI:

Yeah.

# 84 MR. KRAMER:

I've got to balance, and the court may have to balance, certain privacy interests-

# 85 MR. PETROCELLI:

Excuse me [Name Deleted]'s last name and address are not, you k now, highly sensitive information. He is an ordinary person, like the rest of us, whose name and address may appear in hundreds of different materials and documents. I don't understand why this is so sensitive.

# 86 MR. BAKER:

Well, the sensitivity is the concern that this deposition will be disseminated again and the press is going to harass [Name Deleted]. When we took the deposition of Kim Goldman, you were sensitive about her friends, and we wrote down addresses and their names. I don't understand the difference.

# 87 MR. PETROCELLI:

I don't believe that this is necessary at all. Will you let the witness answer the question?

# 88 MR. KRAMER:

Before I decide whether or not to instruct her one way or another, and I will make that determination, I wanted to see whether there was a different way to go about it that might accomplish-might satisfy my needs.

# 89 MR. PETROCELLI:

What do you have in mind, sir?

# 90 MR. KRAMER:

If there is some way that she can give you this information without it being part of the transcript, and if that is-and I'm not privy to whatever accommodations or measures you've taken in the past to ensure that security measure, that privacy measure, but I would like to see if we could explore that.

# 91 MR. PETROCELLI:

Okay. Well, what we'll do, without waiving any right whatsoever known to mankind concerning this, is agree to let her write it on a piece of paper, name and address and telephone number.

# 92 MR. KRAMER:

All right. To the best of her knowledge.

# 93 MR. PETROCELLI:

It will become an exhibit. It will be the next exhibit in order, but it will say omitted in the transcript, and I Will keep possession of it. Okay?

# 94 MR. KRAMER:

That's acceptable. Fine. Okay.

# 95 MR. PETROCELLI:

Thank you. It's Exhibit 160.

# 96 MR. KELLY:

Dan, is this from the beginning of time also?

# 97

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 98 Q:

Do you have a phone number, please?

# 99 MR. KRAMER:

Want to write down the phone number?

# 100 MS. FISCHMAN:

Okay.

# 101

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 102 Q:

Home and work.

# 103 A:

I don't know his work number at all.

# 104 Q:

Okay. MR. BREWER: Did you get the employer and employer's address also?

# 105

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 106 Q:

Yeah, why don't you write that down also, the employer's name and address and telephone number.

# 107 A:

The employer's?

# 108 Q:

Yeah, [Name Deleted]'s employer.

# 109 A:

I don't know the employer, but he works for UCLA.

# 110 MR. KRAMER:

Okay. All right. That's fine.

# 111

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 112 Q:

What department? Do you know?

# 113 A:

No.

# 114 Q:

What is-We are on the record. What does [Name Deleted] do for a living?

# 115 A:

He's a technologist.

# 116 MR. PETROCELLI:

Mr. Reporter, you will put an omitted from the transcript on No. 160.

# 117 (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 160 was marked for identification by the reporter and was retained by Mr. Petrocelli.)

# 118

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 119 Q:

Okay. When you were with-withdrawn. Are you still seeing [Name Deleted]?

# 120 A:

As a friend, yeah.

# 121 Q:

When did your romantic relationship with [Name Deleted] end?

# 122 MR. BAKER:

Irrelevant.

# 123 MS. FISCHMAN:

Do I have to answer that?

# 124 (Nods head.)

# 125 MS. FISCHMAN:

I would say last year.

# 126

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 127 Q:

1995?

# 128 A:

'95

# 129 Q:

Okay. Now, when you were at the home of [Name Deleted] on the evening of June 11-

# 130 A:

Yes.

# 131 Q:

- you indicated you spent the night there.

# 132 A:

Yes.

# 133 Q:

Okay. Did [Name Deleted] receive a phone call from Nicole?

# 134 A:

Yes.

# 135 Q:

You didn't mention that to us yesterday, did you?

# 136 A:

No. You didn't ask me.

# 137 Q:

Okay. Fair enough. I did ask you if you heard from Nicole, and you said no, but [Name Deleted]-

# 138 A:

I didn't talk to Nicole. I thought you meant yesterday if I talked to Nicole.

# 139 Q:

But [Name Deleted] talked to Nicole. Right?

# 140 A:

Yes.

# 141 Q:

And [Name Deleted] got a phone call from Nicole while you were laying in bed right next to him. Right?

# 142 A:

I was not in bed. I was in the living room. We were talking.

# 143 Q:

And then while you were talking in the living room, the phone rings, it's 2:00 o'clock in the morning, and it's Nicole. Right?

# 144 A:

Yeah. He went to his room and he picked up the phone.

# 145 Q:

And he was on the phone with Nicole for a bit.

# 146 A:

Yes.

# 147 Q:

Andy on over heard him talking to Nicole. Right?

# 148 A:

Right.

# 149 Q:

And then he got off the phone, and then you and [Name Deleted] discussed Nicole's call. Right?

# 150 A:

Yes.

# 151 Q:

And tell us as best as you can recall everything that [Name Deleted] told you about that phone call with Nicole on June 12, wee hours of the morning.

# 152 A:

She apparently wanted to know if I was there, and I told [Name Deleted], "Tell her I'm not here, because I don't want to go home." And so Nicole apparently said, "Tell her to go home because her kids are looking for her and Ron is angry. Ron's been calling." So that's pretty much the conversation.

KEY QUOTE

# 153 Q:

And knowing that Nicole was looking for you and knowing that you had instructed [Name Deleted] to lie on your behalf to Nicole-

# 154 MR. BAKER:

Argumentative.

# 155

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 156 Q:

-did you not feel any need to talk to Nicole the next morning to explain your whereabouts and to maybe quell any anxieties on her part as to where you were?

# 157 A:

You know what? We were so busy with the recital, I figured we'd talk when we go for our run that Monday, because usually Monday we do our run, and I figured that would be the best time for us to talk.

# 158 Q:

So the answer is no -

# 159 A:

No.

# 160 Q:

-you didn't feel the need to say anything to her on Sunday-

# 161 A:

No, I thought-

# 162 Q:

-correct?

# 163 A:

Yes, correct.

# 164 Q:

Thank you.

# 165 MR. BAKER:

You guys are talking on top of each other again.

# 166

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 167 Q:

Please try to answer the question.

# 168 A:

Okay.

# 169 Q:

Thank you.

# 170 MR. KRAMER:

And wait till he finishes his question, and then think about your response and make your response.

# 171 MS. FISCHMAN:

Okay.

# 172 MR. BAKER:

And let her answer.

# 173

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 174 Q:

Is that the only time that [Name Deleted] to your knowledge ever spoke to Nicole?

# 175 A:

To my knowledge?

# 176 (Nods head.)

# 177 A:

They spoke the following morning.

# 178 Q:

They did.

# 179 A:

Yes.

# 180 Q:

How do you know?

# 181 A:

Because [Name Deleted] told me that they spoke for an hour, Nicole and-Nicole called [Name Deleted] the following morning.

# 182 Q:

What time?

# 183 A:

I don't know.

# 184 Q:

Were you there?

# 185 A:

No, I wasn't there.

# 186 Q:

And when did you find out about [Name Deleted]'s phone call with Nicole?

# 187 A:

I spoke to him that day. He called me.

# 188 Q:

Before the recital?

# 189 A:

Yes.

# 190 Q:

Where were you when you spoke to [Name Deleted]?

# 191 A:

I don't know. Maybe at home on Rockingham. I don't know.

# 192 Q:

You were at Rockingham.'

# 193 A:

Probably.

# 194 Q:

And how long was your phone call with [Name Deleted]?

# 195 A:

I don't remember.

# 196 Q:

And tell me what was said.

# 197 A:

What was said?

# 198 Q:

Yes.

# 199 A:

Pretty much what they talked about the night before: That-that I should-that [Name Deleted] should leave me alone for a while, that Cora's marriage-let Cora take care of what she has to take care of, and pretty much she asked questions on how often I go to his house, and mainly they talked about the kids, and that's it.

# 200 Q:

Was the evening before or the wee hours of Sunday morning on June 12 the first time that [Name Deleted] and Nicole ever spoke?

# 201 MR. BAKER:

Speculation.

# 202

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 203 Q:

To your knowledge.

# 204 A:

To my knowledge?

# 205 Q:

Yeah.

# 206 A:

Yes.

# 207 Q:

Have they ever met before?

# 208 A:

Oh, they have met before, yes.

# 209 Q:

They had met.

# 210 A:

Oh, you mean before-what do you mean, "before"? I mean, they've known each other for years.

# 211 Q:

Oh, [Name Deleted] and Nicole?

# 212 A:

Yes.

# 213 Q:

I see. Was [Name Deleted]'s conversation with Nicole on the afternoon of June-on the morning of June 12 the last time they spoke?

# 214 A:

Yes. As far as I know.

# 215 Q:

Okay.

# 216 MR. KRAMER:

You said, "As far as I know?"

# 217 MS. FISCHMAN:

As far as I know.

# 218

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 219 Q:

Okay. Do you know whether [Name Deleted] has ever been interviewed by the police department?

# 220 A:

No.

# 221 Q:

By the D A?

# 222 A:

No.

# 223 Q:

Or by Mr. Simpson's lawyers-

# 224 A:

No.

# 225 Q:

-in the criminal or civil case?

# 226 A:

No.

# 227 Q:

Do you if he has or hasn't, or do you not know one way or the other?

# 228 A:

He hasn't been interviewed.

# 229 Q:

Have you ever supplied his name to anyone before?

# 230 A:

No.

# 231 Q:

So when you went to the recital, you knew of [Name Deleted]'s one-hour phone call with Nicole and what was discussed in that call.

# 232 A:

Yes.

# 233 Q:

And Nicole was making-was expressing her views to [Name Deleted] that he should stop seeing you for a while. Correct?

# 234 A:

Yes. Because Nicole felt guilty about- that's why she called [Name Deleted].

# 235 Q:

Why did Nicole feel guilty?

# 236 A:

Because she felt guilty because she's the one who kinda instigated me being-having a relationship with [Name Deleted].

# 237 Q:

You mean Nicole felt it was her fault-

# 238 A:

Yes.

# 239 Q:

-that you were abandoning your family and-

# 240 A:

No.

# 241 Q:

-children and carrying on with [Name Deleted]?

# 242 A:

No, that's not why. She felt guilty, because she said to [Name Deleted], "I feel guilty. I feel I'm the one who pushed Cora into having a relationship with you."

# 243 Q:

Did Nicole ever express that view to you?

# 244 A:

Yes.

# 245 Q:

Was that true?

# 246 A:

In a way, yes.

# 247 Q:

How did Nicole instigate you to have a relationship with [Name Deleted]?

# 248 A:

This is very-this has nothing to do with Mr. Simpson's-

# 249 Q:

In my view it's highly relevant, and I would ask that you answer the questions.

# 250 MR. BAKER:

It's totally irrelevant. BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 251 Q:

I know Mr. Simpson and his lawyers would like you to withhold from us this information-

# 252 A:

I-

# 253 MR. BAKER:

Let me just put my objection on the record. BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 254 Q:

-but I am going to press you to answer the question-

# 255 MR. BAKER:

That is-

# 256

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 257 Q:

-and if you decline to answer the question, I will go to the judge.

# 258 MR. BAKER:

That is beautiful, but the point is you are invading this woman's privacy rights in an attempt to harass her. She has constitutional privacy rights which you are treading over in your diatribe to bring out as much rumor and gossip as you possibly can.

# 259 MR. PETROCELLI:

You are getting very good, Mr. Baker.

# 260 MR. BAKER:

Thank you.

# 261

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 262 Q:

You may answer the question.

# 263 MR. KRAMER:

Do you want to talk to me for a moment?

# 264 MS. FISCHMAN:

Yes.

# 265 MR. KRAMER:

We are going to want to take a break.

# 266 MR. PETROCELLI:

I will be delving into this area in detail. It directly involves Nicole, and it's highly relevant to understanding this witness' relationship with Nicole and her bias. Thank you.

# 267 MS. FISCHMAN:

Bias?

# 268 MR. PETROCELLI:

Yes.

THEVIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 10:09.

# 269 (Discussion held between the witness and counsel outside the hearing of the reporter.)

# 270

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 271 Q:

The question I believe I asked before your break was: How did Nicole instigate you to have a relationship with [Name Deleted]?

# 272 A:

She told me to loosen up. She says, you know, "Cora, you have such a bad marriage. Why don't you just relax, and probably this will help your marriage in the long run."

KEY QUOTE

# 273 Q:

What was the time frame?

# 274 A:

That was around February of '95 -no-94-

# 275 Q:

'94?

# 276 A:

Yes.

# 277 Q:

And you said that Nicole had known [Name Deleted] before you met [Name Deleted]?

# 278 A:

Well, in the neighborhood, because [Name Deleted] used to play basketball at the park, and they've seen-not-they don't know, but [Name Deleted] knew her as being OJ.'s wife. Not personally. They didn't know each other personally.

# 279 Q:

Did they ever go out together Nicole and [Name Deleted]?

# 280 A:

Did they ever go out?

# 281 Q:

Yes.

# 282 A:

The three-not together, no.

# 283 Q:

The two alone, to your knowledge?

# 284 A:

To my knowledge?

# 285 Q:

Yes.

# 286 A:

They didn't go out. They didn't go out.

# 287 Q:

Are you unsure? You seem like you're hesitating a bit.

# 288 A:

Well, I don't know. I can say I don't know. But as far as I know, they never went out, the two of them.

# 289 Q:

Did they have any relationship between them before you met and started to go OUt with [Name Deleted]?

# 290 A:

No, they didn't have a relationship.

# 291 Q:

How old is [Name Deleted]?

# 292 A:

He's 32 years old.

# 293 Q:

Okay. What is your age?

# 294 A:

I'm 41.

# 295 Q:

The-when did you start to go out with [Name Deleted]?

# 296 A:

When did I start?

# 297 (Nods head.)

# 298 A:

In February of '94.

# 299 Q:

And when did to your knowledge your husband find out about your affair with [Name Deleted]?

# 300 MR. BAKER:

Irrelevant.

# 301 MS. FISCHMAN:

When?

# 302

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 303 Q:

Yes.

# 304 A:

Around that time, in June.

# 305 Q:

Before the recital. Correct?

# 306 A:

Before the recital? Yes, yes, before the recital.

# 307 Q:

And do you know how your husband found out?

# 308 A:

The two of them talked to each other. [Name Deleted] and Ron talked to each other.

# 309 Q:

Do you know how that conversation came about?

# 310 A:

Do I know?

# 311 (Nods head.)

# 312 A:

Ron found out where [Name Deleted] was working, and that's pretty much how they did.

# 313 Q:

Where was [Name Deleted] working?

# 314 A:

He used to work at the store.

# 315 Q:

What store?

# 316 A:

Vicente Foods.

# 317 Q:

San Vicente Foods?

# 318 A:

Uh-huh.

# 319 Q:

And what did he do there?

# 320 A:

He's a-he works at the store. I don't know. I guess Faye said grocery clerk.

# 321 Q:

Grocery clerk. Do you know whether OJ. Simpson told Ron about your affair with [Name Deleted]?

# 322 A:

If OJ. Simpson?

# 323 Q:

Yes.

# 324 A:

I don't know.

# 325 Q:

Do you know whether Ron and Mr. Simpson ever talked about the affair that you were having and Ron's problems?

# 326 A:

I don't know.

# 327 Q:

You have no-

# 328 A:

I don't know.

# 329 Q:

-knowledge about that?

# 330 A:

Yeah, I don't know.

# 331 Q:

Have you and Mr. Simpson ever talked about his conversations with Ron concerning your marriage?

# 332 A:

No.

# 333 Q:

Never?

# 334 A:

We talked about why our marriage was falling apart, but that's-

# 335 Q:

You and Mr. Simpson did?

# 336 A:

Yeah.

# 337 Q:

When did you talk about that?

# 338 A:

When he was in jail. He said, you know, "I wish you two could work your problems out."

# 339 Q:

Before June 12 did you ever talk with Mr. Simpson about your marital problems?

# 340 A:

No.

# 341 Q:

Or your affair with [Name Deleted]?

# 342 A:

No.

# 343 Q:

Okay. And you don't know whether Ron did?

# 344 A:

I don't know.

# 345 Q:

Okay. Do you know whether Ron was at Mr. Simpson's home on June 12 on June 11?

# 346 A:

I know?

# 347 Q:

Yes.

# 348 A:

I don't know.

# 349 Q:

Did you ever discuss that with Ron?

# 350 A:

No.

# 351 Q:

Okay. Now, did you and [Name Deleted] and Nicole ever go out together?

# 352 A:

Yes.

# 353 Q:

On how many occasions?

# 354 A:

Must be like two or three occasion.

# 355 Q:

Was there anyone else in the group besides the three of you on those occasions?

# 356 A:

No. It was just the three of us.

# 357 Q:

And have you ever been out with Nicole, [Name Deleted], you and someone else?

# 358 A:

There was one time when the- Nicole, [Name Deleted] and I went out, and then [Name Deleted] was at the place, too, and so the four of us, yeah.

# 359 Q:

Okay. Where was that?

# 360 A:

Renaissance.

# 361 Q:

Is that a nightclub?

# 362 A:

That's a club, yes.

# 363 Q:

And when was that?

# 364 A:

When?

# 365 Q:

Yes.

# 366 A:

It's got to be around February of '94.

# 367 Q:

Do you know whether OJ. Simpson at this time knew about your affair with [Name Deleted]?

# 368 MR. BAKER:

Speculation.

# 369 MS. FISCHMAN:

In February?

# 370

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 371 Q:

Yes.

# 372 A:

I didn't have-

# 373 Q:

Well, whenever it began, do you know whether Mr. Simpson knew about it?

# 374 A:

No, I don't think he -

# 375 Q:

Did you tell Nicole not to tell him,

# 376 A:

We didn't talk about it. I mean, it was like-we didn't talk about it.

# 377 Q:

Okay. Did you understand that Nicole would not tell him about the affair?

# 378 A:

Did I understand?

# 379 (Nods head.)

# 380 A:

Yes.

# 381 Q:

Okay. Where else did you and [Name Deleted] and Nicole go out together besides the Renaissance?

# 382 A:

I think that's pretty much it.

# 383 Q:

Prior to Nicole's going to Cabo, she had expressed to you doubts about whether her relationship with OJ. Simpson was going to work out. Correct?

# 384 A:

Before Cabo?

# 385 Q:

Yes.

# 386 A:

She always had doubts about her relationship with OJ.

# 387 Q:

Well, there was a time the prior year, in April of 1993, when she was very confident and optimistic that things would work out again and that she-

# 388 A:

Yes.

# 389 Q:

-went back with Mr. Simpson. Right?

# 390 A:

Yes.

# 391 Q:

And you encouraged her to do that.

# 392 A:

Yes.

# 393 Q:

For the sake of putting her family back together. Right?

# 394 A:

Yes, because that's what she wanted.

# 395 Q:

And Nicole had been going to some therapy sessions and had experienced some self-growth and felt that there was a better chance of her relationship working. True?

# 396 A:

True.

# 397 Q:

By the way, do you know who the therapist was?

# 398 A:

No. You know what? It was-it was a group therapy thing.

# 399 Q:

Did you participate at all?

# 400 A:

No.

# 401 Q:

A guy named [Name Deleted]?

# 402 A:

Yes.

# 403 Q:

[Name Deleted] also attended?

# 404 A:

[Name Deleted] actually was the one who recommended this one.

# 405 Q:

Faye Resnick also attended some sessions?

# 406 A:

Well, she asked me to go, but there was no way I could do it, and so she asked Faye, and so they went a couple times to this session group.

# 407 Q:

Well, let's focus a little bit then on that time frame. You had many discussions with Nicole about her decision to go back to Mr. Simpson in April '93 and before. Correct?

# 408 A:

Right.

# 409 Q:

And what did she say to you in the final analysis as to why she was going to go back with him?

# 410 A:

Because she still loved OJ. At the time she was afraid that OJ. will be completely out of her life. She-and I told her, I said, "You make sure that if this is what you want this is what you want," because at the time OJ. was going out with Paula already, and she wanted her family back.

# 411 Q:

Did she tell you-

# 412 A:

She didn't think all these guys were-matched up with OJ.

# 413 Q:

In other words, she had had an opportunity to date other men-

# 414 A:

Yes. Yes.

# 415 Q:

-for the first time in her adult life?

# 416 A:

I would say yes, yeah.

# 417 Q:

She had become involved with Mr. Simpson at a very young age. Right?

# 418 A:

Yes.

# 419 Q:

And after a year or so of dating other men, she decided that OJ. was the best person for her?

# 420 A:

Yes.

# 421 Q:

And she told you all these things and you talked about them?

# 422 A:

Yes.

# 423 Q:

Okay. Did you and she discuss the problems that they had in the marriage and whether they would resurface if she got back together with

OJ. Simpson?

# 424 A:

Yes.

# 425 Q:

And relate to me what Nicole said to you about that.

# 426 A:

The problem?

# 427 (Nods head.)

# 428 A:

One was if only OJ. could be around the kids. He travels too much. He-he traveled, he works too much. If only they could have a simple life as opposed to all this, you know-

# 429 Q:

Hollywood lifestyle?

# 430 A:

Yes.

# 431 Q:

Nicole didn't like that?

# 432 A:

She was not into that. She wanted -she just wanted to raise her kids.

# 433 Q:

What about the womanizing issue, did she discuss that with you?

# 434 MR. BAKER:

Leading.

# 435 MS. FISCHMAN:

Well, when they went back-when they got back together, they both kinda talked to each other, saying that that will be over. Whatever happened the last seven years of their marriage, they're gonna work on that. That's why she was gonna clean up her act, and OJ., whatever he was doing, it was just going to be the two of them. They were going to make a commitment and it's just going to be the two of them. No more of these other men or other women.

# 436

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 437 Q:

So Nicole told you that she had reason to believe that OJ.'s womanizing would not be a problem anymore?

# 438 A:

That's pretty much what-yeah.

# 439 Q:

What about OJ.'s violent temper? Did Nicole discuss with you whether that would be a problem -

# 440 MR. BAKER:

Leading.

# 441

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 442 Q:

-if she got back together?

# 443 A:

Well, you know what? We didn't talk about that. We talked about how husbands get angry, you know, and we talked about how we said sometimes we'd push each other's button, because knowing-you know, that's pretty much our conversation.

# 444 Q:

But did Nicole discuss with you her concerns about whether she would run into problems with physical abuse or violence if she got back with OJ. Simpson?

# 445 A:

She never-she never talked to me about that.

# 446 Q:

Not once?

# 447 A:

Not once.

# 448 Q:

But you knew her way as far back as May of 1989, correct?

# 449 A:

Yes.

# 450 Q:

-Nicole? And you knew that she was unhappy in her marriage-

# 451 A:

Not '89. I knew her then, yeah, but the time that I really knew her was when she got separated from OJ. So it was in the later part of '91.

# 452 Q:

And Nicole told you that one of the things that caused her to end her relationship or her marriage with OJ. Simpson was the beating she received in 1989. Correct?

# 453 A:

No, she didn't tell me that.

# 454 MR. BAKER:

Leading.

# 455

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 456 Q:

She told you that from that point on, she wanted out of the relationship. Correct?

# 457 MR. BAKER:

Leading.

# 458 MS. FISCHMAN:

No. She was just tired of everything already, the womanizing, the-pretty much everything. That's what she said. And also she already was having an affair with [Name Deleted]. She found this guy, and they had been going out.

# 459

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 460 Q:

She was having that affair while she was still married and living at Rockingham. Correct?

# 461 A:

Yes, Yes.

# 462 Q:

Before she moved out of Rockingham, had Nicole told you about the New Year's Eve beating in 1989?

# 463 A:

No.

# 464 Q:

You only learned about it after she moved out?

# 465 A:

Yes. Yes, she told me.

# 466 Q:

After she moved out?

# 467 A:

After she moved out, yeah.

# 468 Q:

Okay. So when she decided to end her marriage and move out, she discussed that with you. Right?

# 469 A:

When she-yes.

# 470 Q:

And she discussed the fact that she was having an affair with Alessandro, with you. Right?

# 471 A:

Yes.

# 472 Q:

When did that affair begin to your knowledge?

# 473 A:

To my knowledge? I don't know. When I-when we got really close, she already said it's been going on and she's thinking of moving in with this guy, so I'm not sure as to the time frame. It could be six months.

# 474 Q:

Six months before she actually moved out?

# 475 A:

Yeah.

# 476 Q:

Okay. And during that six-month period you and she would have- started to have many conversations together. Right?

# 477 A:

Uh-huh.

# 478 Q:

And that's when you started to develop a close bond with her. Right?

# 479 A:

Uh-huh.

# 480 Q:

You have to answer audibly.

# 481 A:

Yes, yes.

# 482 Q:

In those conversations did she tell you about the physical abuse in her marriage?

# 483 A:

No.

# 484 Q:

But she told you about womanizing, right, by OJ. Simpson?

# 485 MR. BAKER:

Leading.

# 486 MS. FISCHMAN:

Yes.

# 487

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 488 Q:

And his not being around home and around the kids, issues like that. Correct?

# 489 A:

Right, because of his traveling. And she always wished that his work could be here in California so they could be together. That's the intention.

# 490 Q:

Now, did she tell you that she was afraid of talking to OJ. Simpson and telling him about her decision to leave the marriage?

# 491 MR. KRAMER:

At what time?

# 492 MR. PETROCELLI:

Before she made the decision-before she told him.

# 493 Q:

Did she discuss with you the anticipation of telling Mr. Simpson and what that was going to be like?

# 494 A:

The anticipation? You know, I don't remember, because all I know is I told her, you know, "You can't go on with your affair if you're gonna live there. You have to move out and try to"-that's pretty much-I don't know the-I mean, because when we started talking, she already-when OJ. got back from New York, she spoke to OJ., and they-you know, she said, "I wanted out."

# 495 Q:

Did she relate to you what OJ.'s reaction was?

# 496 A:

No.

# 497 Q:

Okay. Did you understand that OJ. was opposed to the marriage ending?

# 498 A:

Of course, yeah.

# 499 Q:

And Nicole told you that?

# 500 A:

Uh-huh. Yes.

# 501 Q:

And OJ. told you that also?

# 502 A:

Yes.

# 503 Q:

Did you discuss Nicole's affair with OJ. before Nicole left the house?

# 504 A:

No.

# 505 Q:

And what about afterwards?

# 506 A:

Afterwards?

# 507 Q:

Yes.

# 508 A:

No.

# 509 Q:

Didn't OJ. ask you about the affair?

# 510 A:

Yes, but I denied it.

# 511 Q:

When did he ask you?

# 512 A:

Even during the time - the whole time that they were trying to reconcile-I mean, they tried to reconcile, and even the time when he was trying to understand why she wanted to get out of the marriage.

# 513 Q:

Throughout that time period he would ask you-

# 514 A:

Yeah.

# 515 Q:

-whether Nicole had an affair?

# 516 A:

Why did she want to move out, what was the reason, and, you know, he said, "Is she having an affair?" I said no.

# 517 Q:

Didn't he make some comment to you about Alessandro to the effect that he's drinking his champagne and eating his caviar?

# 518 A:

Yes. See, he suspected that-he suspected that she was having an affair with [Name Deleted], and he asked me, he says, "Are they having an affair?"

I said, "No. They're just friends." And he says, "Well, someone's eating the caviar and champagne every time I leave." So he made that comment, yes.

# 519 Q:

I see. But you didn't tell him about the affair.

# 520 A:

I denied the affair. I said they were just friends.

# 521 Q:

Now, how often in the beginning

# 522 A:

Because Nicole made-because Nicole told me, "Don't ever, whatever happens, don't ever tell OJ. that I had an affair before I left Rockingham," and I-I made a promise to her.

# 523 Q:

After Nicole moved out of the house, she continued to see Alessandro?

# 524 A:

I'm sorry. What?

# 525 Q:

After Nicole moved out of Rockingham, did she continue to see Allessandro?

# 526 A:

Yes.

# 527 Q:

And how long did that relationship last?

# 528 A:

Oh, God. Well, it kinda fell apart when-started to fell-fall apart when Nicole moved out of Rockingham pretty much.

# 529 Q:

And do you know the reason?

# 530 A:

Well, as Nicole said, "It kinda fade away," you know.

# 531 Q:

Did she tell you that Alessandro was concerned about Mr. Simpson being jealous and vindictive?

# 532 MR. BAKER:

Leading.

# 533 MS. FISCHMAN:

Yeah, and also Nicole kinda wanted-yes.

# 534

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 535 Q:

Okay. Who was Nicole's next relationship after Alessandro?

# 536 A:

Relationship?

# 537 MR. KRAMER:

Are you talking about

# 538 MR. PETROCELLI:

Men she dated.

# 539 MS. FISCHMAN:

Men she dated?

# 540 MR. KRAMER:

A relationship in terms of substance or-I'm not sure

# 541 MR. PETROCELLI:

Man-woman relationship, dating, whatever-however you want to characterize it.

# 542 MS. FISCHMAN:

Okay. Well, in passing was Keith, because Keith moved in.

# 543

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 544 Q:

Keith moved in the Gretna Green?

# 545 A:

Well, not moved in. As a guest, as a house guest, because at the time he was fix--he was trying to open up Mezzaluna in Brentwood, and he needed, you know, he needed a place and Nicole offered her guest house.

# 546 Q:

And while-Nicole dated Keith for a while. Right?

# 547 A:

They didn't date, but Keith was very attracted to Nicole, and Nicole being lonely, they had a-they had sex.

# 548 Q:

More than once?

# 549 A:

That I don't know, but I got mad at her about that.

# 550 Q:

Why?

# 551 A:

Because-because I told her that she was vulnerable and that she shouldn't do it just for sex, you know, at that time.

# 552 Q:

Nicole told you, you told us yesterday, how OJ. confronted Keith and her the next day after he observed them having sex together. Do you recall that?

# 553 A:

If-yes. Yes.

# 554 Q:

And did she tell you that Mr. Simpson was yelling and screaming when he confronted Nicole and OJ.-and Keith?

# 555 A:

You know, because the following day when we went out for our run, Nicole said, "Oh, OJ. saw us."

I said, "What do you mean?" She says, "OJ. saw us, and he heard everything."

I said, "Oh, really" And that's pretty much the conversation. I said, "Was he mad?" I said.

"Yeah." And then so I said, "Was he mad" And she said, "Yes."

# 556 Q:

So this was after OJ. had confronted Keith and Nicole the following morning that you had this conversation-

# 557 A:

Yes.

# 558 Q:

-with Nicole?

# 559 A:

Yes, the following morning, that

# 560 Q:

Now, you told Barbara Walters the following: "She," referring to Nicole, "told me the following day that OJ." -Withdrawn.

# 561 Q:

Did Nicole tell you that OJ. screamed and yelled when he confronted Keith and Nicole the next day?

# 562 MR. BAKER:

Leading.

# 563 MS. FISCHMAN:

Screamed and yelled?

# 564

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 565 Q:

Yeah, at them for what they were doing.

# 566 A:

Nicole said to me, "OJ. was mad. "

# 567 Q:

Did she tell you why OJ. was mad?

# 568 A:

Because OJ. saw them doing the act.

# 569 Q:

Did she tell you why OJ. was there watching the two of them do the act?

# 570 A:

No.

# 571 Q:

Did you ask OJ. why she-he was outside looking at them?

# 572 A:

I don't remember.

# 573 Q:

Have you ever asked OJ. Simpson about this?

# 574 A:

I don't think so.

# 575 Q:

Okay. After Keith, who did Nicole date?

# 576 A:

Refresh my memory, yeah. Okay. After Keith was [Name Deleted]. She was attracted to this guy, and so she asked Kris Jenner, she says, "I want to meet this guy," so that's how this whole thing was set up.

While Keith was still a house guest at Gretna Green, Nicole went to Cabo with Kris and [Name Deleted] and Faye, and Kris invited Nicole. She said, "[Name Deleted]'s gonna be there," and that's where they all went.

# 577 Q:

What was [Name Deleted]'s occupation?

# 578 A:

He was a shoe salesman for Neiman-Marcus at the time.

# 579 Q:

What was Alessandro's occupation, by the way?

# 580 A:

He used to be the maitre d' of Toscana, and then he-at the same, a hairdresser.

# 581 Q:

Okay. How long did Nicole date Keith-

# 582 A:

Keith?

# 583 MR. BAKER:

[Name Deleted].

# 584

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 585 Q:

-[Name Deleted]?

# 586 A:

I would say not that long, because [Name Deleted]-

# 587 MR. KRAMER:

You've answered the question. If he wants to know why, then that's fine.

# 588 MS. FISCHMAN:

Oh, okay.

# 589 MR. KRAMER:

But just answer the question. It will speed things up.

# 590

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 591 Q:

And what was the reason?

# 592 A:

What?

# 593 Q:

You were just about to explain why.

# 594 A:

It just didn't work out.

# 595 Q:

Okay. Do you know whether Mr. Simpson ever confronted [Name Deleted] during that relationship?

# 596 A:

Confronted?

# 597 Q:

Yes.

# 598 A:

If I know, no.

# 599 Q:

And did Nicole ever tell you such a thing?

# 600 A:

# 601 Q:

Okay. This is all in the year 1992. Correct?

# 602 A:

Yes.

# 603 Q:

Now, what was Nicole's next relationship after [Name Deleted]?

# 604 A:

[Name Deleted]? Well, she was getting a divorce, so she met [Name Deleted].

# 605 Q:

Okay. And how long did that relationship last?

# 606 A:

About four months. Yeah, four to six months, something like that.

# 607 Q:

And do you know whether Mr. Simpson ever confronted [Name Deleted]?

# 608 A:

If Mr. Simpson confronted?

# 609 (Nods head.)

# 610 A:

I don't think he confronted [Name Deleted].

# 611 Q:

Okay. Did Mr. Simpson know that Nicole was dating [Name Deleted] when she was dating him?

# 612 A:

If I knew-

# 613 Q:

Whether he was aware of that relationship when it was going on.

# 614 A:

Of [Name Deleted]?

# 615 Q:

Yes.

# 616 A:

Yes.

# 617 Q:

And how do you know that?

# 618 A:

If Mr. Simpson knew about-

# 619 (Nods head.)

# 620 A:

Because Nicole told OJ. on Mother's Day-I remember that Mother's Day, and she actually told OJ., "I'm in love, and I want to be with this person"-

# 621 Q:

And-

# 622 A:

-"So don't mess it up, " or something like that. She says, "Don't mess it up. I love this man."

# 623 Q:

This is May of 1992?

# 624 A:

Yes.

# 625 Q:

And as of this point in time OJ. Simpson had not yet to your knowledge had a relationship with Paula Barbieri. Correct?

# 626 A:

At that time they were going out. I knew that they were going-that OJ. was going out with Paula. They were dating.

# 627 Q:

And to your knowledge OJ. Simpson at this point in time was still interested in getting Nicole back, as of the time Nicole sat down with him on Mother's Day?

# 628 MR. BAKER:

Speculation.

# 629 MS. FISCHMAN:

At that time?

# 630

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 631 (Nods head.)

# 632 A:

See, at the time they were working on their divorce already, you know, and so that's pretty much what their conversations-

# 633 Q:

But you understood form your conversations with Nicole that Mr. Simpson was still interested in putting the marriage back together for a period of time. Correct?

# 634 A:

Yes. Yes.

# 635 Q:

And that period of time to your knowledge lasted the spring of 1992. Correct?

# 636 A:

Spring of 1992, which is March April? Yes.

# 637 Q:

And Mr. Simpson called you and would talk to you from time to time about Nicole. Correct?

# 638 A:

Yes.

# 639 Q:

And asked what she's up to?

# 640 A:

Uh-huh.

# 641 Q:

Correct?

# 642 A:

Yes, correct.

# 643 Q:

And he would express to you his desire to want to work things out with Nicole. Correct?

# 644 A:

Correct.

# 645 Q:

Even though they were in the middle of divorce proceedings. Correct?

# 646 A:

Yes.

# 647 Q:

And what would you say to him and what would he say to you in these conversations?

# 648 A:

Well, he's trying to understand Nicole. He was trying to understand Nicole and what was- what does she really want, and I told-you know, I told him, "Just leave her alone. She needs some time to be alone. She needs to reassess her life," and pretty much, you know, said that, "She loves you. She loves you. She still wants the kids," words like that.

# 649 Q:

And what would he say to you?

# 650 A:

Well, he says you know "I love that woman." You know, "We had such a great marriage. What happened?"

# 651 Q:

Did you ask him about the incident when he beat her, in these conversations?

# 652 A:

Did I ask who?

# 653 Q:

Mr. Simpson.

# 654 A:

No, I never asked Mr. Simpson.

# 655 Q:

Did you mention to him the incident involving Keith Zlomsowitzh after it occurred and after Nicole told you about it?

# 656 MR. BAKER:

Asked and answered.

# 657 MS. FISCHMAN:

Keith? Yeah, I asked. I asked him about that, and he said he saw them, and he said that-he says, you know, "I don't like what Nicole does because the kids are there." He says, "If she wants to do something like that, she should do it someplace, but not with the kids around."

# 658

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 659 Q:

Did you question Mr. Simpson as to why he was looking in the window?

# 660 A:

No.

# 661 Q:

You didn't?

# 662 A:

Well, he just told me, but that's about-I didn't even know he was at the window. He told me that he saw, so I don't know-you know, to me probably you're right.

# 663 Q:

Did he describe what he saw?

# 664 A:

No.

# 665 Q:

Okay. You had already heard about this from Nicole. Right?

# 666 A:

Yes.

# 667 Q:

Okay. Did there come a time in 1992 when to your knowledge Mr. Simpson stopped pursuing Nicole in trying to get the marriage back together?

# 668 A:

You know, after when they got divorced,

# 669 Q:

That was October of '92.

# 670 A:

Yes.

# 671 Q:

So all the way through October of '92, your understanding was that Mr. Simpson was still interested in putting things back together with Nicole?

# 672 A:

I mean, they were still talking, yes, about that, yes.

# 673 Q:

And you know this based on your conversations with Mr. Simpson and Nicole?

# 674 A:

About what?

# 675 Q:

That he was skill interested in putting the relationship back together.

# 676 A:

Yes, they were both interested in trying to work things out. See, Nicole didn't want a divorce. She just wanted a separation. OJ. wanted a divorce, and so-

# 677 Q:

Why did OJ. want a divorce on the one hand and on the other hand put his marriage back together?

# 678 MR. BAKER:

Speculation.

# 679 MS. FISCHMAN:

Well, because, see, to him, if she wants to continue having men in her life, OJ. said, "Well, if that's what she wants, that's what she wants, and we get divorced." But, see, Nicole just wanted a separation because she just wanted to know what was going on in her life.

# 680

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 681 Q:

So OJ. told you that if Nicole wanted to date men, then he wanted a divorce?

# 682 A:

Oh, no, no, no, no. He says, you know, - "you want a separation, then we get divorced. That's it. It's over."

# 683 Q:

So OJ. told you that if Nicole wanted a separation, then he wanted a divorce, but he did not want to have a separation.

# 684 A:

Yes.

# 685 Q:

Is that what you're saying?

# 686 A:

Yes. Yes.

# 687 Q:

But he told you that he was prepared to go back in the marriage, but no legal separation, get back together

# 688 A:

Yes.

# 689 Q:

-live in the same house.

# 690 A:

Right.

# 691 Q:

And Nicole told you that that was not acceptable to her. Correct? She wanted a separation.

# 692 A:

She wanted a separation, yes.

# 693 Q:

Okay. And after [Name Deleted], who did Nicole next have a relationship with?

# 694 A:

[Name Deleted].

# 695 Q:

And after [Name Deleted]?

# 696 A:

[Name Deleted]-I mean [Name Deleted].

# 697 Q:

And after [Name Deleted]?

# 698 A:

[Name Deleted]? [Name Deleted].

# 699 Q:

[Name Deleted]?

# 700 A:

[Name Deleted], you know, the guy, the Cabo.

# 701 Q:

That's the next year, though. Right?

# 702 A:

Uh-huh.

# 703 Q:

Correct? She had a relationship with [Name Deleted] in 1992-

# 704 A:

Yeah.

# 705 Q:

-and into 1993. Right?

# 706 A:

Uh-huh.

# 707 MR. KRAMER:

Is that a yes?

# 708 MS. FISCHMAN:

Yes. Wait. Could you repeat the question? I want to make sure-

# 709

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 710 Q:

I think you jumped a year on me.

# 711 A:

Yeah, I'm getting confused now.

# 712 Q:

Okay. After [Name Deleted] she then dated [Name Deleted], and that was the Christmas of '92 into January of '93. Correct?

# 713 A:

'93, correct, yes.

# 714 Q:

And after [Name Deleted] she went back with Mr. Simpson. Correct?

# 715 A:

Yes, around March, yes.

# 716 Q:

Around March. And in between there, there's Marcus Allen somewhere. Right?

# 717 A:

Yes.

# 718 Q:

The first time.

# 719 A:

Yeah.

# 720 Q:

And when was-

# 721 A:

In between also, when she left- when she went to move to Gretna Green, that's when the relationship with Marcus Allen started. You know, whenever Marcus Allen was in town, she saw Marcus.

# 722 Q:

She saw Marcus Allen almost immediately when she moved into the Gretna Green-

# 723 A:

Not right away, no.

# 724 Q:

She moved in January of '93 or- excuse me-January of 1992 or thereabouts.

# 725 A:

Uh-huh. Yes.

# 726 Q:

That was the first place she moved into out of Rockingham. Correct?

# 727 A:

Right, Uh-huh.

# 728 Q:

And you are saying not too long thereafter she began to see Marcus Allen?

# 729 A:

Right.

# 730 Q:

Okay. Did she see him continuously through the year of 1992?

# 731 A:

Not continuously. Whenever he was around, whenever he was in town.

# 732 Q:

And did there come a time when she stopped seeing Marcus Allen?

# 733 A:

Yes.

# 734 Q:

And when was that?

# 735 A:

When she went back to OJ.

# 736 Q:

In around March or April of 1993. Correct?

# 737 A:

Right.

# 738 Q:

Okay. Do you know whether Mr. Simpson ever confronted [Name Deleted] or [Name Deleted] while Nicole was dating them?

# 739 A:

No, OJ. didn't confront them.

# 740 Q:

And do you know whether he ever confronted Marcus Allen about Nicole's dating him.'

# 741 A:

I-yes, I think the two of them talked.

# 742 Q:

And how do you know that?

# 743 A:

Because Nicole told me and OJ. told me.

# 744 Q:

Tell me what OJ. told you about that talk.

# 745 A:

That they talked and that Marcus Allen apologized. That's pretty much, you know-

# 746 Q:

When did OJ. tell you that?

# 747 A:

Around-it was around that tune when Nicole told-when Nicole told OJ. about the affair, so say April, May, June, because they were already playing golf already, and then Marcus' wedding took place at Rockingham.

# 748 Q:

Did OJ. tell you he was unhappy when he learned about that affair?

# 749 A:

Of course, yeah. He was shocked, yeah.

He was shocked?

# 750 A:

Yeah.

# 751 Q:

Do you know what prompted Nicole to tell Mr. Simpson about her affair with Marcus Allen?

# 752 A:

Because she felt that if they were gonna start a life together, that they were gonna come clean both ways. No more womanizing, and she's not going to have any secrets or any men. If it's the two of them, it's just the two of them.

# 753 Q:

And at that point she told Mr. Simpson the various men-

# 754 A:

Yes.

# 755 Q:

-she had been dating?

# 756 A:

Right.

# 757 Q:

Including Marcus Allen?

# 758 A:

Yes.

# 759 Q:

Now, wasn't that Mr. Simpson's idea, that she disclose to him all of her relationships?

# 760 MR. BAKER:

Speculation.

# 761 MS. FISCHMAN:

It was not his idea. It was also Nicole's idea, because she felt like if they gonna start something, they gonna start fresh with no secrets.

# 762

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 763 Q:

Did she tell you, Nicole, that

Mr. Simpson had asked her to disclose all those relationships?

# 764 MR. BAKER:

Leading.

# 765

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 766 Q:

Did she tell you that?

# 767 A:

I think the two of them volunteered it, talked about their relationship.

# 768 Q:

How do you know they both volunteered?

# 769 A:

Because she told me.

# 770 Q:

That's what she said?

# 771 A:

Yes.

# 772 Q:

Did you ever ask Mr. Simpson about that?

# 773 A:

Well, he told me-

# 774 MR. KRAMER:

Did you ask?

# 775 MS. FISCHMAN:

Yes.

# 776

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 777 Q:

And what did he tell you?

# 778 A:

That Nicole told-see, but-

# 779 Q:

What did he tell you? That's my question.

# 780 A:

Oh, that Nicole told him everything.

# 781 Q:

Did he tell you that he had asked Nicole to tell him.'

# 782 A:

No.

# 783 Q:

Okay. Did he tell Nicole everything?

# 784 MR. BAKER:

Speculation.

BY MR. PETROCELLI: Did he tell you that he then told Nicole everything?

# 785 A:

Yeah, I think so, yes.

# 786 Q:

What did he tell you that he told Nicole? MR. BAKER: I think that's triple hearsay.

# 787 MS. FISCHMAN:

What did-

# 788

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 789 Q:

What did he tell you that he told Nicole?

# 790 A:

Well, they talked about Paula.

# 791 Q:

Anyone else?

# 792 A:

That was it.

# 793 Q:

Okay. And this conversation occurred when they reconciled?

# 794 A:

They were trying-yes.

# 795 Q:

And so when they reconciled, the understanding was neither would date anyone else. Right?

# 796 A:

Excuse me?

# 797 Q:

Neither would date anyone else.

# 798 A:

Right.

# 799 Q:

Now, did either Nicole or OJ. Simpson tell you of any ground rules that they set for their reconciliation period?

# 800 A:

Ground rules?

# 801 Q:

Yeah.

# 802 A:

That they were to be committed to each other.

# 803 Q:

And that Nicole would move in?

# 804 A:

Oh, no, they didn't talk about that right away, no. No.

# 805 Q:

Did OJ. Simpson ever talk to you during this year in which they were trying to reconcile about letting Nicole move back in?

# 806 A:

They weren't even thinking of that, moving back in, no.

# 807 Q:

How do you know that?

# 808 A:

Because Nicole at the time said they really have to work themselves first before the two of them move back.

# 809 Q:

Did Mr. Simpson say to you that he wanted Nicole to move back in at anytime since they began to reconcile?

# 810 A:

If Mr. Simpson asked?

# 811 Q:

Yes.

# 812 A:

No.

# 813 Q:

Did he ever have a conversation with you when he said, "I want Nicole to move in now. I think it's time that she move in"?

# 814 A:

Well, if they move in, they said they have to be ready for each other.

# 815 Q:

What did OJ. Simpson say to you about that? That's what I'm trying to find out.

# 816 A:

What did OJ. Simpson say?

# 817 Q:

About Nicole moving in. Tell me what he said to you.

# 818 A:

You know, the moving in, it's kinda -what they-the two of them talk about moving back together, and they say, "No. We love each other, but we cannot live together. I think it's better to have each other place," you know. So I don't know what kind of answer you want me to-

# 819 Q:

I am just trying to get from you what Mr. Simpson told you about the subject of Nicole moving into his house, what he told you.

# 820 A:

I don't remember. They both wanted to be together, but they could not find the time or-they seemed not ready to live in one house because they said that they don't want any more fighting, you know, because they said, you know, "You can't put the kids back and forth from one house and then separate." So they were just more concerned about the kids. Especially Nicole was concerned also about the kids, you know.

# 821 Q:

Did-

# 822 A:

So I cannot answer. It's hard for me to answer that question.

# 823 Q:

Did OJ. Simpson tell you that he had given Nicole any rules or requirements or stipulations for this reconciliation?

# 824 A:

Yes.

# 825 Q:

Mr. Simpson told you that?

# 826 A:

Well, yeah, he mentioned to me.

# 827 Q:

What did he tell you?

# 828 A:

He said that, you know, "If we move back together, I will not"-"I will not allow this going out with the girls and going out dancing." That was one. And, you know, he says, "If we were committed to each other, that's it; we're committed to each other, but I will not tolerate the going out and going out with girls and coming back at 3:00, 4:00 o'clock in the morning?" That's what he said.

# 829 Q:

Did he tell you that there were any friends of Nicole that he would not allow her to see?

# 830 A:

Yes.

# 831 Q:

Who?

# 832 A:

Like [Name Deleted].

# 833 Q:

What did he say to you about [Name Deleted] and not wanting Nicole to see her?

# 834 A:

Because [Name Deleted] is a cocaine addict.

# 835 Q:

Is that what Mr. Simpson told you?

# 836 A:

Well, Nicole told me that, too, that OJ. doesn't like [Name Deleted] because, you know, they're bad influence.

# 837 Q:

And Mr. Simpson told you that also?

# 838 A:

At some point, yeah, he mentioned to me.

# 839 Q:

Any other friends that he said he didn't want Nicole to see?

# 840 A:

That's pretty much who.

# 841 Q:

Did he tell you that there was a period of time, a deadline, for which he was going to participate in this reconciliation process with Nicole?

# 842 A:

A deadline?

# 843 Q:

Yeah.

# 844 A:

There was never a deadline on this two, anyway.

# 845 Q:

He never told you of any such deadline. Correct?

# 846 A:

No.

# 847 Q:

He never said, "I'm only going to give it one year and that's it." Correct? Correct?

# 848 A:

I don't remember that. I don't want to say yes and then, you know-I don't remember that.

# 849 Q:

Okay. And Nicole never told you of a one-year deadline either. Correct?

# 850 A:

Correct, yeah.

# 851 Q:

Do you know if they then began to see a therapist together at any time during this period?

# 852 A:

Yeah, they tried-they saw a therapist.

# 853 Q:

And who was the therapist?

# 854 A:

[Name Deleted].

# 855 Q:

[Name Deleted]?

# 856 A:

Yes.

# 857 Q:

Do you know how often they went together to [Name Deleted]?

# 858 A:

I don't know. I don't remember.

# 859 Q:

Did Nicole tell you about her visits with Mr. Michaels from time to time?

# 860 A:

Yeah, she told me, yes.

# 861 Q:

And did she tell you how OJ. was responding to going to see [Name Deleted]?

# 862 A:

Yeah, the two of them, yes.

# 863 Q:

And what did she tell you about that?

# 864 A:

She says that they're going to try to make a commitment and that they're working on their relationship and that they're gonna try and-that's pretty much that's what it is. They're gonna try and work it out, see what happens.

# 865 Q:

And after the visits to [Name Deleted], would Nicole tell you how they went?

# 866 A:

How they went?

# 867 Q:

Yeah, how the visits went and how OJ. was responding to the visits.

# 868 A:

No, not really.

# 869 Q:

Did you ever talk to OJ. Simpson about his visits with [Name Deleted]?

# 870 A:

No.

# 871 Q:

No. Okay. Now, was there a period of time aftern they began to see one another in April of '93 that things were going well, based on your observations?

# 872 A:

Right, yeah.

# 873 Q:

And how long was that?

# 874 A:

'93 was when they went to Cabo. They had a great time in Cabo, so- and then when he left, it started- Nicole started changing her mind, and she didn't want-

# 875 Q:

When Mr. Simpson left to go to New York for the football season. Is that what you mean?

# 876 A:

Football season?

# 877 Q:

You said "when he left."

# 878 A:

You're talking about April? You're talking about April of '93?

# 879 Q:

Yes.

# 880 MR. KRAMER:

I think you're talking about '94.

# 881 MS. FISCHMAN:

Oh, '94. You talking about April of '94?

# 882

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 883 Q:

No. I am talking about now the two of them are planning to get back together, and they start their reconciliation.

# 884 A:

Right.

# 885 Q:

-April of '93-

# 886 A:

I'm sorry.

# 887 Q:

-and I asked you if there was period of time during which things appeared to you to be going well between them, and you said yes.

# 888 A:

Yes. Yes. Right.

# 889 Q:

Okay. And I asked you how long a period of time was that.

# 890 A:

Pretty much that whole year, from April to the time that they went to Cabo.

# 891 Q:

When did they go to Cabo?

# 892 A:

In March, late March of '93-'94.

# 893 Q:

So for that entire year, based on your observations-

# 894 A:

Uh-huh.

# 895 Q:

-the relationship was progressing very well?

# 896 A:

It was off and on yeah, because-

# 897 Q:

"Off and on," I'm confused by that. What does "off and on" mean ?

# 898 A:

Well, they would plan on getting married the following year, and then they said no, they're really not ready to live together, but they could be together but not living together, so that's what I mean by off and on? But if they had a good relationship, I would say yes, they did.

# 899 Q:

During that year.

# 900 A:

Yes.

# 901 Q:

There were no breaks in that relationship during that year?

# 902 A:

I don't think so, no.

# 903 Q:

Did Nicole ever tell you during that year that it was not going to work out and she was changing her mind and . . .

# 904 A:

April...You know what? She must have said it at one time, yeah.

# 905 Q:

When did she say it?

# 906 A:

I don't remember. You know, it's hard when you're running and you're just talking, it's-I don't remember but, yeah, we talked about that. Like sometimes she feels like it was too early for her to go back to OJ., like she's not really ready. She felt like she just wanted like another year. She said, "I came back to OJ. too early," but she was willing to work it out, you know.

# 907 Q:

Well, yeah. What I am trying to find out is, you're talking about when they would get back together as a husband and wife and live in the same home again. Right?

# 908 A:

Yeah, right.

# 909 Q:

But during this period of time you understood that what they were doing was not seeing other people, but just concentrating-

# 910 A:

Right.

# 911 Q:

-on their relationship, right, to try to make it work. Right?

# 912 A:

Right.

# 913 Q:

But was there a time in that year when Nicole told you or OJ. Simpson told you that they don't want to try it make it work anymore, that they want to stop it?

# 914 A:

Oh, no, no, they-

# 915 Q:

That never happened?

# 916 A:

No, it didn't happen.

# 917 Q:

And Nicole never said to you, "You know, I want to start seeing other men again," or, "I want to start dating again"?

# 918 A:

No.

# 919 Q:

At no time?

# 920 A:

No. No time, no.

# 921 Q:

Did you talk to Mr. Simpson from time to time during that year about this relationship and his feelings about it?

# 922 A:

Uh-huh, yes.

# 923 Q:

And what did he tell you, as that year progressed, about the relationship?

# 924 A:

Well, you know, they both were

# 925 Q:

I am asking you what he did, not -what he told you.

# 926 A:

Oh, what he told me? He just wants to make sure that what Nicole is doing is-whatever she was doing is what she wants to do. That's pretty much it. He says, "Do you think she really is serious about that?"

I said, "Yeah," you know, "look what we're doing," you know, "we even taking" _ "playing"-you know, she never liked to play golf. We started taking golf lessons. You know, we did a lot of things. And at the time she was gonna move to wherever OJ. wanted her to move. That time they talked about Cabo San Lucas. You know, they found a place.

# 927 Q:

Tell me about that. They found a place in Cabo?

# 928 A:

Yes, they found-no. OJ. said they had a lot in Cabo and-

# 929 Q:

A lot?

# 930 A:

A- MR. BAKER: A space, lot.

# 931 MS. FISCHMAN:

A lot. A lot. Space.

# 932

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 933 Q:

Right. They had-

# 934 A:

Property.

# 935 Q:

-purchased it?

# 936 A:

Yeah.

# 937 Q:

Who purchased it?

# 938 A:

I don't know. But-so Nicole was excited about that because she said, "Oh, that's great. I'll just be in Cabo and sunbathe the whole"-you know, and Nicole wanted to move to wherever OJ. wanted to move, so...

# 939 Q:

Did Nicole tell you that she would have to sell her-or use her savings to help pay for that place in Cabo, to build it out?

# 940 A:

To use her savings?

# 941 Q:

Yeah, to use the money she had gotten from her divorce settlement.

# 942 A:

She never-

# 943 Q:

Never discussed that with you?

# 944 A:

No, she didn't talk to me. We didn't even, you know, didn't talk about that.

# 945 Q:

Did either person, Nicole or OJ. Simpson, ever tell you of any fights or arguments that they had during that year from April of '93 to April of '94?

# 946 A:

I'm sorry. What?

# 947 Q:

Did either one ever tell you about I any fights or arguments that they had during that year?

# 948 A:

Huge fight, no, but I'm sure arguments, they had arguments.

# 949 Q:

you don't recall any major-

# 950 A:

A major-

Q -battles between them,

# 951 A:

No, no major battles.

# 952 Q:

In October of '93 there was an incident when Nicole called 911. Correct?

# 953 A:

Oh, yes. Right, yeah.

# 954 Q:

Did she tell you about that incident?

# 955 A:

She told me that incident the day after our run, and she said, you know, "OJ. got mad at me."

And I said, "Why?"

"Oh, about those pictures I have in the house."

I says, "You mean all the guys' pictures."

She says, "Yeah."

# 956 Q:

Whose pictures?

# 957 A:

All the guys. Nicole has all these pictures of all the different men in her family room, and, see-

# 958 Q:

In a photo album?

# 959 A:

No. It's just like in, what do you call this, frames.

# 960 Q:

And they were laid out on tables

# 961 A:

Laid out in the living room and the family room, you know.

# 962 Q:

You are saying that when she and Mr. Simpson decided to work things out in April of '93, she kept those pictures out?

# 963 A:

Some of them out, yes, but then she put away most of the solo pictures of the different men.

# 964 Q:

Put them away?

# 965 A:

Put them away.

# 966 Q:

Okay.

# 967 A:

But what made OJ. mad was when they were in-see, what Nicole told me and also what OJ. also told me was Nicole went to Rockingham and noticed the picture of Paula in the family room, and Nicole got mad at OJ. She said, "You said there won't be any more pictures. Why is there a picture of Paula here?. And Nicole got mad because the frame that was used was the frame of their wedding picture, and so Nicole was upset with that.

So she-they started fighting over that, and she went home, and OJ. went to her house, and they were already saying-you know, they were fighting. He says, "What's going on? You're telling me not to have pictures, and here you have pictures." And he says, "Look at you, look at all these pictures you have." You know, "Who's Keith?" And Marcus Allen, whatever. That's the time-and he was yelling. She went upstairs and called 911.

# 968 Q:

She told you that-

# 969 A:

Yes.

# 970 Q:

-the next day?

# 971 A:

Yeah, she called me-no, she didn't tell me about that. I just realized that the 911 tape was when I was watching the video, you know, whatever the testifying.

# 972 Q:

I see. So Nicole never told you after this incident on October 25, 1993 that it had occurred to the extent that it did. Right?

# 973 A:

Uh-huh, yeah.

# 974 Q:

Correct?

# 975 A:

She didn't tell me about the 911, no. She just told me that they had a fight.

# 976 Q:

She didn't tell you about the police coming out. Right?

# 977 A:

No, she didn't tell me.

# 978 Q:

Did she tell you that OJ. had broken a door down?

# 979 A:

She didn't tell me that.

# 980 Q:

So based on what she told you, you didn't regard it as a big fight, just an argument. Right?

# 981 A:

Yeah, well, because the way she told me.

# 982 Q:

So were you surprised when you heard the tape?

# 983 A:

Very surprised, yeah.

# 984 Q:

Do you have any reason-do you know of any reason why Nicole didn't tell you the truth about what happened?

# 985 MR. BAKER:

Speculation.

# 986 MS. FISCHMAN:

The reason why?

# 987

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 988 Q:

Yes.

# 989 A:

When I found out, I was shocked.

# 990 Q:

You know, what I am asking you is: Given your close relationship with Nicole-

# 991 A:

Yeah.

# 992 Q:

- do you have any reason or belief why she didn't tell you about it?

# 993 A:

I don't know why she didn't tell me.

# 994 Q:

Did she tend to guard things like that and keep them private?

# 995 A:

Probably, yes, yes.

# 996 Q:

Was she embarrassed by incidents like that?

# 997 MR. BAKER:

Speculation.

# 998 MS. FISCHMAN:

I don't know. Probably.

# 999

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1000 Q:

Now, did you speak to OJ. Simpson about that incident shortly after it occurred?

# 1001 A:

Yeah, she told-he told me about the pictures, you know, they fought about pictures. He says, you know "I'm looking at the pictures. She's mad at the pictures, and I go to her house; they've got pictures"-"she's got pictures of all the men in her life, though." That's pretty much-

# 1002 Q:

Did he tell you that she had called 911?

# 1003 A:

Did he tell me?

# 1004 Q:

Yes.

# 1005 A:

He didn't tell me.

# 1006 Q:

Did he tell you that he had broken a door?

# 1007 A:

He didn't tell me.

# 1008 Q:

Did he tell you that the police had come out?

# 1009 A:

I didn't know that. He didn't tell me.

# 1010 Q:

Did Nicole during her divorce proceedings with OJ. Simpson tell you that the divorce was-that she was going to settle the case rather than go to court? Did she discuss that with you?

# 1011 A:

No, she didn't discuss that with me.

# 1012 Q:

Do you know that her-a trial in her divorce case actually began? Did you know that?

# 1013 A:

No, I did not.

# 1014 Q:

Did you attend the trial?

# 1015 A:

No.

# 1016 Q:

Did she tell you when she had settled with OJ. Simpson that she had done so?

# 1017 A:

Yes.

# 1018 Q:

And did she tell you why she had done so?

# 1019 A:

Pretty much, yes.

# 1020 Q:

And what did she tell you?

# 1021 Q:

She told me that she just wanted to end and that she wanted to have a life with [Name Deleted], and

[Name Deleted]has kinda told her that, you know, "Why don't you just settle, so that way we can buy a house." You know, because she was planning on living together with [Name Deleted] at that time.

# 1022 Q:

Did she tell you that Mr. Simpson pressured her into not testifying in court about their relationship?

# 1023 A:

Pressured?

# 1024 (Nods head.)

# 1025 A:

No, she didn't tell me about that.

# 1026 Q:

Did she tell you that Mr. Simpson had discussed with her that it would not be wise financially for the whole family if she testified in court?

# 1027 A:

She didn't tell me that.

# 1028 Q:

Never discussed any of that with you?

# 1029 A:

No.

# 1030 Q:

Did she tell you that she was seeing a therapist named [Name Deleted]?

# 1031 A:

Yes, she told me that.

# 1032 Q:

Did-she tell you that she was seeing [Name Deleted] at the time that she was seeing her, or was it much later that she told you?

# 1033 A:

No, she told me those-she had two sessions with that lady-

# 1034 Q:

[Name Deleted]?

# 1035 A:

[Name Deleted].

# 1036 Q:

When did she tell you about [Name Deleted]?

# 1037 A:

During the time that she was seeing-

# 1038 Q:

Okay. And what-

# 1039 A:

It was of the early part of '92.

# 1040 Q:

Correct. And what did she tell you about [Name Deleted]?

# 1041 A:

She said it was too expensive and she wasn't getting anything from it.

# 1042 Q:

Did she tell you why she was seeing [Name Deleted]?

# 1043 A:

Because she read this book about obsessive love and she thought it was interesting, and that she said, "Oh, my God, look at this," and so that's why she went and contacted the author.

# 1044 Q:

[Name Deleted]?

# 1045 A:

[Name Deleted].

# 1046 Q:

And when she read "Obsessive Love," she told you that it reminded her of things that had happened in her relationship with OJ. Simpson. Right?

# 1047 A:

Yes.

# 1048 Q:

Did you-in all the years you knew Nicole, did you believe her to be a dishonest person?

# 1049 A:

Did I who?

# 1050 Q:

Believe her to be a dishonest person.

# 1051 A:

No. I believed, no.

# 1052 Q:

Do you believe that she was a person who would deceive other people or try to deceive other people?

# 1053 A:

No.

# 1054 Q:

Okay. You answered no.

# 1055 MR. KELLY:

I'm sorry. I didn't hear the answer.

# 1056 MS. FISCHMAN:

No.

# 1057

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1058 Q:

Did Nicole tell you that she was going to try to deceive OJ. Simpson in order to get money from him?

# 1059 A:

No.

# 1060 Q:

Did Nicole tell you that she was involved in a scheme, a fraud that would be perpetrated on OJ. Simpson in order to get money from him-

# 1061 A:

No.

# 1062 Q:

-in order to get out of a prenuptial agreement?

# 1063 A:

No.

# 1064 Q:

Did she ever tell you that she was doing such things?

# 1065 A:

She never told me.

# 1066 Q:

Okay. Did she tell you that she was going to invent stories of abuse about OJ. Simpson in order to assist her ease in the divorce proceedings?

# 1067 A:

No.

# 1068 Q:

Has anyone ever asked you whether Nicole made up stories of abuse against OJ. Simpson?

# 1069 A:

No.

# 1070 Q:

Did Mr. Simpson ever ask you that at any time?

# 1071 A:

No.

# 1072 Q:

Did he ever discuss that subject with you?

# 1073 A:

No.

# 1074 Q:

Have you ever heard Mr. Simpson's claim that Nicole invented stories of abuse in order to deceive him in the divorce case?

# 1075 A:

No.

# 1076 Q:

Are you aware that he has testified to that in his deposition?

# 1077 A:

No, I'm not aware of it.

# 1078 Q:

Okay. Have you read his deposition?

# 1079 A:

No.

# 1080 MR. BAKER:

That would take a week.

# 1081 MS. FISCHMAN:

I don't follow these things, so...

# 1082

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1083 Q:

Okay. Do you believe that Nicole was the kind of person who would do such a thing?

# 1084 A:

Do what?

# 1085 Q:

Invent stories-

# 1086 A:

No.

# 1087 Q:

-of abuse?

# 1088 MR. KRAMER:

Let him finish his question-

# 1089 MS. FISCHMAN:

Sorry.

# 1090 MR. KRAMER:

- and then think about the answer and then answer the question.

# 1091 MS. FISCHMAN:

If I know the answer. MR. PETROCELLI: She said no, she was not that kind of person.

# 1092 Q:

Is that your testimony?

# 1093 A:

Yes.

# 1094 Q:

Okay. Based on your knowledge and experience and your relationship with Nicole, if Nicole wrote down incidents of abuse, do you believe that they occurred?

# 1095 A:

If I believe?

# 1096 Q:

If she wrote them down and described them, would you say that she was telling the truth?

# 1097 A:

If it was her writing, yes.

# 1098 Q:

Did she ever tell you about any incident of abuse other than the New Year's Eve incident?

# 1099 A:

No. That was the only one.

# 1100 Q:

Did you ever ask her?

# 1101 A:

No.

# 1102 Q:

Did you ever ask her, "How many times did OJ. beat you?"

# 1103 A:

No, we never talked about it.

# 1104 Q:

Did she ever ask you whether your husband beat you?

# 1105 MR. BAKER:

Irrelevant.

# 1106 MS. FISCHMAN:

That one? Yes, I said

# 1107

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1108 Q:

Excuse me?

# 1109 A:

I'm sorry. What-

# 1110 Q:

Did she ever ask you whether your husband beat you or hit you-

# 1111 A:

Oh, me?

# 1112 Q:

Yeah. -or abused you?

# 1113 A:

She did ask me.

# 1114 Q:

And what did you tell her?

# 1115 A:

I said, "No, never."

# 1116 Q:

When did she ask you?

# 1117 A:

I don't know. When we go for our runs and stuff like that.

# 1118 Q:

Okay. What did she tell you about [Name Deleted], about their sessions?

# 1119 A:

That her sessions were boring and that her sessions were-she really didn't help her at all understand and that she couldn't afford it. That's pretty much what she told me.

# 1120 Q:

Now, you told Barbara Walters that there was a period of time when OJ. was following Nicole and you around. Do you remember that?

# 1121 A:

Yes.

# 1122 Q:

Now, was that during the period when OJ. and Nicole were going through their divorce?

# 1123 A:

Yeah. '92.

# 1124 Q:

In 1992. Correct?

# 1125 A:

Uh-huh.

# 1126 Q:

And could you tell us where OJ. was following Nicole and you around and how he was doing so?

# 1127 MR. KRAMER:

Is this different from the questions of yesterday-

# 1128 MR. PETROCELLI:

Well, yesterday focused I think on the '94 time period in particular.

# 1129 MR. KRAMER:

The two restaurants?

# 1130 MS. FISCHMAN:

But I told you the two. There were two-twice that we-that OJ. was there when we got there: One was Mezzaluna. I remember that was a Tuesday, and we were there, and OJ. walked in with a friend, and at that time Nicole-there were like a lot of guys sitting, and there was one guy sitting on her lap, and when OJ. walked in, he said to Nicole, "Is this what you wanted?" and all of a sudden, all the guys just left and-

# 1131

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1132 Q:

Who was the guy sitting on Nicole's lap?

# 1133 A:

Oh, God, I don't remember. The bartender-at the time Keith was there.

# 1134 Q:

This is 1992?

# 1135 A:

Yeah.

# 1136 Q:

And OJ. was upset when he said that?

# 1137 A:

Well, kinda like he was shocked. He goes, "This is what you wanted."

# 1138 Q:

What does that mean, "This is what you wanted?"

# 1139 MR. BAKER:

Speculation.

# 1140 MS. FISCHMAN:

Well, all the men all over-

# 1141

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1142 Q:

All over Nicole?

# 1143 A:

Yeah.

# 1144 Q:

And was it just Nicole surrounded by a bunch of men?

# 1145 A:

Yeah. Yeah.

# 1146 Q:

Were you there?

# 1147 A:

Well, I was there. What I was doing, I went to the bathroom, and I was there. I saw all of a sudden all the guys started disappearing.

# 1148 Q:

Where did they go?

# 1149 A:

They all went into different directions.

# 1150 Q:

When all the men scattered, was Nicole left alone at the table then?

# 1151 A:

Yes.

# 1152 Q:

And what did OJ. say to her at that time?

# 1153 A:

OJ. just-OJ. was away. OJ. went to the bar, to the other side.

# 1154 Q:

He only made that one comment, "Is that what you want, all of this?"

# 1155 A:

"This is all what you want."-"Is this all what you wanted?"

# 1156 Q:

Okay. Now, is that the only incident where you think he followed her in 1992?

# 1157 A:

That one end then when we went to Tryst.

# 1158 Q:

Again in 1992?

# 1159 A:

In 1992, yeah.

# 1160 Q:

Describe that one for us again.

# 1161 A:

Oh, God. We were waiting for our table. That was the opening night of that restaurant. We were waiting at the table-for our table, and it was crowded, and all of a sudden, you know, a few minuses after OJ. was there, and so Nicole goes, "Guess what? He's around."

# 1162 Q:

Who were you with?

# 1163 A:

At that time I was with [Name Deleted]; [Name Deleted] was there; Keith was there. I think that was it.

# 1164 Q:

And then OJ. entered?

# 1165 A:

OJ. walked in with another friend

# 1166 Q:

Who was it?

# 1167 A:

I don't remember. I don't know the names. And then he left.

# 1168 Q:

Did he say anything to Nicole?

# 1169 A:

No.

# 1170 Q:

Nothing?

# 1171 A:

See, we were there. I was-we were kinda like trying to avoid him, you know, because we felt uncomfortable, and said, "Oh, God, he's here.."

# 1172 Q:

Did he see Nicole?

# 1173 A:

He must have seen Nicole.

# 1174 Q:

Did he say anything to her?

# 1175 A:

No.

# 1176 Q:

Did he appear upset?

# 1177 A:

Well, we sort of like - they walked in and then he walked out.

# 1178 Q:

Is that all you can remember?

# 1179 A:

That's-yeah.

# 1180 A:

Yes.

# 1181 Q:

Now, there was an incident at Toscana's when he threatened Alessandro. Correct?

# 1182 MR. BAKER:

Leading.

# 1183 MS. FISCHMAN:

See, I wasn't there.

# 1184

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1185 Q:

Did you see him threaten Alessandro?

# 1186 A:

No.

# 1187 Q:

Were you told that he had done so?

# 1188 A:

Who told me?

# 1189 Q:

Anyone.

# 1190 A:

No.

# 1191 Q:

Nobody told you?

# 1192 A:

No. All I know is she told me that

# 1193 MR. KRAMER:

"She" is who?

# 1194 MS. FISCHMAN:

Nicole said, Guess what? [Name Deleted] was here."

I said, "Oh, really?" "Yeah." That was it.

BY MR. PETROCELLI: That's it. Nothing else.

# 1195 A:

Nothing else.

# 1196 Q:

So you don't know of any threat by OJ. against Alessandro?

# 1197 A:

No, I don't know anything about that.

# 1198 Q:

Okay. Now, you gave a statement that Nicole was being followed by OJ. in late 1994 or-that is, in May or June of 1994 while she was doing her errands. Do you recall that?

# 1199 A:

Uh-huh, she told me that.

# 1200 Q:

Okay. Tell me what she said in that regard.

# 1201 A:

She said, "Oh, God, I think I saw OJ.'s car behind me when I was doing all my errands."

I said, "Oh, really?" That was it. That was the conversation I had.

# 1202 Q:

That's it?

# 1203 A:

Yeah.

# 1204 Q:

Let me get back to your Alessandro incident. He was a hairdresser?

# 1205 A:

Uh-huh, yes.

# 1206 Q:

Okay. Let me read your statement that you gave to [Name Deleted]

"We were at Toscana"- "this hairdresser . . . . at some point when we were. . . at Toscana the guy was there.. And he went crazy . . . " Does that refresh your recollection as to what you saw that evening at Toscana?

# 1207 MR. BAKER:

What page are you on?

# 1208 MR. PETROCELLI:

6-5 and 6.

"And he went crazy . . . "

# 1209 A:

See, I wasn't there. See, at that time-

# 1210 Q:

That's what you said.

# 1211 A:

Well, see, I wasn't there-

# 1212 MR. KRAMER:

Cora, the question was, does that-the reading of that statement refresh your recollection of what happened that night and what you saw? Either it does or it doesn't. THE WITNESS: It doesn't.

# 1213

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1214 Q:

Why did you tell Michael Viner that OJ. went crazy?

# 1215 MR. BAKER:

Argumentative.

# 1216

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1217 Q:

Were you lying to him.'

# 1218 MR. BAKER:

Argumentative

# 1219 MS. FISCHMAN:

See, I don't remember that incident. See, when we left there, it must have been Faye and Christian were there, and-

# 1220

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1221 Q:

Let me ask you a question: Is everything-when you were talking to Michael Viner and the gentlemen there from the media, was everything that you told them true to the best of your knowledge at that time?

# 1222 A:

At the time, yes.

# 1223 Q:

Did you knowingly fabricate anything?

# 1224 A:

Fabricate?

# 1225 Q:

Yes.

# 1226 A:

No.

# 1227 Q:

Make it up. Invent.

# 1228 A:

No. I've always-

# 1229 Q:

Lie.

# 1230 A:

I've never lied, no.

# 1231 Q:

So everything you told them was truthful. Correct?

# 1232 A:

As far as-yes.

# 1233 Q:

And if you were under oath that day, you would have said the same thing. Correct?

# 1234 A:

Correct, yes.

# 1235 Q:

And while we are on that topic, we have pre-marked exhibits 156, 157 and 158 and 159, which are all statements by you. Okay?

Exhibit 156 is an interview-is a summary of a statement that you gave to Detectives LeFall and A.J. Luper on June 14, 1994, and Exhibit 157 is a summary of a statement you gave to Detective Payne on June 24. The first statement, by the way, is June 14th.

# 1236 A:

Uh-huh.

# 1237 Q:

Exhibit 156 is June 14. Exhibit 157 is June 24. The third statement you gave is on September 15th, 1994, and that was to a Detective Vannatter.

# 1238 A:

Uh-huh.

# 1239 Q:

Exhibit 158 is a summary of that statement. And Exhibit 159 is the Star article that you were paid-

# 1240 A:

Right.

# 1241 Q:

-for giving an interview.

# 1242 A:

Uh-huh.

# 1243 Q:

Okay? That's Exhibit 159. Now, were all the statements that you gave to the officers and to the Star people truthful?

# 1244 MR. KRAMER:

Hold on just a second. That-I am going to make a distinction in the question, because I want to make sure the witness is clear. You're asking whether what she said at the time to the people was truthful-

# 1245 MR. PETROCELLI:

Correct.

# 1246 MR. KRAMER:

-you are not asking her whether everything contained in those exhibits is what she said. Right?

# 1247

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1248 Q:

I am asking, whatever you said, was it not truthful? Whatever you told the officers and told the Star Magazine-

# 1249 A:

As far as I can remember?

# 1250 Q:

As far as you knew at the time-

# 1251 A:

Yes.

# 1252 Q:

-was it honest and truthful?

# 1253 A:

Yes.

# 1254 Q:

And you didn't say anything that was untrue to your knowledge. Correct?

# 1255 A:

To my knowledge, yes.

# 1256 Q:

And if you were under oath in all those interviews and statements to the police and to the Star Magazine you would have said the same thing. Correct?

# 1257 A:

Okay. But the Star Magazine is not my words, though. They-I told them the story-

# 1258 MR. KRAMER:

Cora, that's not the question.

# 1259 MS. FISCHMAN:

Okay. BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1260 Q:

If you were under oath, you would have told them the same things that you told them. Correct?

# 1261 A:

Correct.

# 1262 Q:

The fact that you were not under oath didn't cause you to lie or make things up.

# 1263 A:

Yes.

# 1264 Q:

Or with-okay?

# 1265 A:

Yes.

# 1266 MR. PETROCELLI:

I will get back to the statements. I will have her read them at a break, and then she can confirm that they're accurate things that she said. Okay?

# 1267 MR. KRAMER:

Fine.

# 1268 MR. BAKER:

Why don't we take a quick break right now.

# 1269 MR. PETROCELLI:

Okay. That's fine.

THEVIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 11:20.

# 1270 (Recess.)

# 1271

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1272 Q:

Did Nicole ever tell you that OJ. would spy on her from the bushes outside her apartment at Gretna Green?

# 1273 A:

Bushes?

# 1274 Q:

Or outside on the property?

# 1275 A:

I remember one time, yes.

# 1276 Q:

What did she say to you in that regard?

# 1277 A:

She said, "Oh, you know, what, Cora? There was a black man by my kitchen door and"-

# 1278 Q:

At Gretna Green?

# 1279 A:

Yes. And she got scared, and at that time she said, "It looks like it's" -"it looks like Jason."

# 1280 Q:

And it's also true that she told you that she believed that OJ. put Jason up to-

# 1281 A:

That's what she said.

# 1282 Q:

-going there. Correct?

# 1283 A:

Correct. Yes.

# 1284 Q:

You're cutting me off-

# 1285 A:

Correct.

# 1286 Q:

-So my questions are mishmash.

# 1287 A:

Okay. I'm sorry.

# 1288 Q:

But she told you that she thought OJ. Simpson had sent his son Jason there to frighten her. Correct?

# 1289 A:

Correct.

# 1290 Q:

Okay. That was when she was living at Gretna Green?

# 1291 A:

Correct.

# 1292 Q:

What's the time frame of that?

# 1293 A:

That's nighttime.

# 1294 Q:

That's a good answer. That's a good answer.

# 1295 A:

Time frame? When she just-

# 1296 Q:

Nighttime.

# 1297 A:

When she just moved to Gretna Green, so early part.

# 1298 Q:

Of 1992?

# 1299 A:

Right.

# 1300 Q:

Did she relate to you any other incidents during her time at Gretna Green when she thought OJ. Simpson was looking at her or spying on her or hiding in the bushes or anything like that other than the Keith Zlomsowitzh incident?

# 1301 A:

That was the one, the Keith.

# 1302 Q:

What about at Bundy? When she moved to Bundy, did she tell you about-

# 1303 A:

Bundy, no.

# 1304 Q:

- any incidents where OJ. would come and look at her, look in the windows or hide in the bushes?

# 1305 A:

No.

# 1306 Q:

You don't know anything about that?

# 1307 A:

No.

# 1308 Q:

Did you ever talk to any of her friends about that?

# 1309 A:

Of her friends?

# 1310 Q:

Yeah, like Faye Resnick or [Name Deleted].

# 1311 A:

No.

# 1312 Q:

No?

# 1313 A:

No.

# 1314 Q:

Never heard of any of that?

# 1315 A:

No. At that time, no.

# 1316 Q:

Do you recall the chapter in Faye Resnick's book called "The Bush Syndrome"? Did you read that chapter?

# 1317 A:

I didn't read the book. That's why. I glanced-

# 1318 Q:

You're not familiar with that chapter?

# 1319 A:

What's it about?

# 1320 Q:

About OJ. Simpson hiding in the bushes.

# 1321 A:

Of where?

# 1322 Q:

At Bundy.

# 1323 A:

See, I don't know that.

# 1324 Q:

You don't know anything about that?

# 1325 A:

No.

# 1326 Q:

Okay. When you used to run with Nicole, did Nicole carry a key with her?

# 1327 A:

Yes. No, we don't, no. We had-

# 1328 Q:

Let me clarify my question.

# 1329 A:

Right.

# 1330 Q:

When Nicole was living at Bundy

# 1331 A:

Uh-huh. Yes.

# 1332 Q:

- you and she would run together. Would she carry a key on her person, either like on a ring finger- a ring with a key attached to it?

# 1333 A:

She never carried a key.

# 1334 Q:

Never?

# 1335 A:

Never.

# 1336 Q:

How did she get in the house?

# 1337 A:

What we do is, when we run, she has a spare key that we-that she throws it by the plant by her gate, and we put it there and then we run.

# 1338 Q:

Was that key a single key or a key on a key chain?

# 1339 A:

It's a key on a key chain.

# 1340 Q:

And can you describe the key chain?

# 1341 A:

God, I don't remember now.

# 1342 Q:

Did she have a little Smoky the Bear key chain?

# 1343 A:

Smokey the Bear.

# 1344 Q:

Little Smoky the Bear ring with a key attached to it?

# 1345 A:

It was just a round key.

# 1346 Q:

How many keys were on that?

# 1347 A:

I think two.

# 1348 Q:

Two?

# 1349 A:

Yeah.

# 1350 Q:

And what did the keys operate? The front gate?

# 1351 A:

Just the front gate and the door.

# 1352 Q:

Front door?

# 1353 A:

Yes.

# 1354 Q:

And also the back gate?

# 1355 A:

See, the front and the door is one key, I think, for all-

# 1356 Q:

One key?

# 1357 A:

Yeah.

# 1358 Q:

And the back gate was a separate key?

# 1359 A:

See, I don't know the back door because we never went through that back door, so...

# 1360 Q:

The back gate?

# 1361 A:

The back gate. I assume that that one key is for the three gates.

# 1362 Q:

There was one key or two keys on this key chain that she would hide under the planter? How many keys?

# 1363 A:

You know what? I think not from my own-I think it's just one, because we just throw it in the bushes.

# 1364 Q:

When you would arrive at Nicole's condo at Bundy during the period January through June of 1994, would you buzz the gate in front?

# 1365 A:

Sometimes I do or sometimes- then when she gave me a key, I just opened it with my key.

# 1366 Q:

Well, when you used to buzz the gate, could you describe how that worked?

# 1367 A:

How it works?

# 1368 Q:

Yes. In other words, there was a doorbell. Right?

# 1369 A:

Yeah.

# 1370 Q:

You would press the button, press the doorbell?

# 1371 A:

Right.

# 1372 Q:

And then she could talk to you; there was a little speaker box?

# 1373 A:

Yes. Yes.

# 1374 Q:

And you said, "This is Cora?

# 1375 A:

Right.

# 1376 Q:

And if she wanted to let you in, how could she let you in? Did she buzz it, or did she have to come and open the gate manually?

# 1377 A:

Sometimes she buzz it. Sometimes -see, that thing works off and on. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't work.

# 1378 Q:

Okay. When it's working, how can she let you in from inside the condo?

# 1379 A:

She will buzz it and the door will open. It would buzz, and then you open-

# 1380 Q:

You open it.

# 1381 A:

Yes.

# 1382 Q:

But there were times when it wasn't working.

# 1383 A:

Right.

# 1384 Q:

And when it wasn't working and you didn't use your key, how would she let you in?

# 1385 A:

She would get out and then open the-

# 1386 Q:

Go out the front door, walk down to the gate and then have to manually open it?

# 1387 A:

Yes.

# 1388 Q:

And do you remember whether the buzzer on the gate was working in dune of 1994?

# 1389 A:

If it was working?

# 1390 Q:

Or whether it was not working.

# 1391 A:

I don't remember, but it was working off and on. I already told you that.

# 1392 Q:

But do you know if it was working or not working around the time of her death?

# 1393 A:

I don't know that.

# 1394 Q:

When did you get the key?

# 1395 A:

When did I get the key?

# 1396 Q:

Yes.

# 1397 A:

Well, she moved in January of '94, so any time after that.

# 1398 Q:

Sometime after January of '94?

# 1399 A:

Yeah.

# 1400 Q:

And under what circumstances would you use the key?

# 1401 A:

Because every morning I go there, so it was easier for me to just walk in and out. Plus-

# 1402 Q:

So when you got the key, you would just use the key?

# 1403 A:

Right, yes.

# 1404 Q:

And then go to her front door and knock on the door or let yourself in?

# 1405 A:

Sometimes I knock at the door. Sometimes-the door is always unlocked, anyway. She leaves it unlocked, and I would just walk in or I use my key, so...

# 1406 Q:

During the time she was at Bundy, did Nicole ever tell you that she thought OJ. was spying on her at Bundy?

# 1407 A:

She never told me that, no.

# 1408 Q:

Never?

# 1409 A:

No.

# 1410 Q:

Did you ever let anybody use the key that Nicole gave you to her condo?

# 1411 A:

No. It was always on my key chain.

# 1412 Q:

Did OJ. Simpson know that you had a key to that condo?

# 1413 A:

He didn't know.

# 1414 Q:

Did there come a time before Nicole's death when one of her house keys was lost?

# 1415 A:

Yes.

# 1416 Q:

When did that occur?

# 1417 A:

Around June.

# 1418 Q:

And tell me what you know about that incident.

# 1419 A:

Well, we were gonna go for a run, and then she noticed that her key was missing. She said "Oh, my key is missing. I can't find it." So I said, "Okay, fine, we'll run," So- but that was the conversation that we had.

# 1420 Q:

Was it the same key that she had been using to put under the planter?

# 1421 A:

The one that we would throw in the bushes, yes.

# 1422 Q:

So what did she then do to get back to the house that day?

# 1423 A:

Well, it was either my key or we leave it unlocked or-[Name Deleted] was there, so-

# 1424 Q:

It was not a problem.

# 1425 A:

No.

# 1426 Q:

And do you know whether she ever found that key before she died?

# 1427 A:

I didn't know that.

# 1428 Q:

How long before her death did this incident occur?

# 1429 A:

What do you mean, "incident"? The key missing?

# 1430 Q:

Yes.

# 1431 A:

I would say early part of June.

# 1432 Q:

Did she tell you that she thought OJ. might have taken it?

# 1433 A:

At that time she thought that either OJ. or Faye, because at that time she said "Probably OJ. has it or and then she said, "probably Faye has it."

# 1434 Q:

Why did she-do you know why she thought that OJ. might have taken the key?

# 1435 A:

Well, because at the time OJ. was in and out of the house, too, because, see, OJ. was feeding-was helping -at that time OJ. was helping the kids, too, because he was there most of the time. They were trying to reconcile, too, at the time, so he was there.

# 1436 Q:

Wait a second. You're trying to tell me that they were trying to reconcile in June of 1994?

# 1437 A:

Well, now, he was-see, he was -she had pneumonia at that week of-

# 1438 Q:

That's middle of May.

# 1439 A:

-May.

# 1440 Q:

You told the police officers that their final breakup occurred a week and a half before her death.

# 1441 MR. BAKER:

Is that a question? A statement?

# 1442 MS. FISCHMAN:

A week and a half?

# 1443

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1444 Q:

Yes. You're not suggesting now that they were trying to reconcile that week and a half, are you?

# 1445 A:

No. No, they were not.

# 1446 Q:

So during that week and a half OJ. wouldn't have permission to your knowledge to go onto Bundy with a key to her house. Right?

# 1447 A:

See, she didn't know that OJ. had a key to the house.

# 1448 Q:

Is that right?

# 1449 A:

I'm sorry. What?

# 1450 Q:

It's not your understanding that OJ. had permission to have a key to Nicole's house during the last week and a half?

# 1451 A:

Yes.

# 1452 Q:

That's -

# 1453 A:

Yes, that's-

# 1454 Q:

That's true. Right?

# 1455 A:

That's true, yes.

# 1456 Q:

Did she tell you that she was concerned that OJ. might have a key to her house-

# 1457 A:

Yes, she did mention that, yes.

# 1458 Q:

-and that she wafted to get it back?

# 1459 A:

She didn't specify that.

# 1460 Q:

Okay. Do you know whether she did anything to get her key back?

# 1461 A:

She didn't-she didn't tell me that.

# 1462 Q:

Okay. Now, during the break you had a chance to review exhibits 156, 157, 158, which are all statements that you gave to police officers- actually, their reports of your statements.

# 1463 A:

Uh-huh.

# 1464 Q:

And 159 is the Star Magazine article for which you were paid money. Let's talk about Exhibit 156, June 14 interview with Detectives LeFall and A. J. Luper. Are all the statements reported in Exhibit 156 accurate?

# 1465 A:

Yes.

# 1466 Q:

Thank you. Exhibit 157 is a report of your interview with Detective Payne. Are all the statements in Exhibit 157 accurate?

# 1467 A:

Yes.

# 1468 Q:

Exhibit 158-

# 1469 MR. KRAMER:

I am pointing something-I am calling to the attention something to the witness.

# 1470 MR. PETROCELLI:

Why? She can testify for herself.

# 1471 MR. KRAMER:

That's right.

# 1472 MR. PETROCELLI:

Okay.

# 1473 MS. FISCHMAN:

Yeah.

# 1474

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1475 Q:

Thank you. Exhibit 158 is a report of your third interview with the police, this one with Detective Vannatter. That's on September 15th, 1994. Are the statements on Exhibit 158 accurate?

# 1476 A:

This-

# 1477 Q:

Are the statements accurate?

# 1478 A:

The statements are accurate, right.

# 1479 Q:

Thank you. And Exhibit 159, the article with the Star, are the statements attributed to you in this exhibit accurate?

# 1480 A:

Attributed to me?

# 1481 Q:

Yes.

# 1482 A:

Yes.

# 1483 Q:

Is there anything in Exhibit 159 that you believe is inaccurate?

# 1484 A:

Inaccurate? This part here (Indicating), because I was not there, so

# 1485 Q:

The witness is referring to the page 27 of the Star Magazine article, the description of the Kris and Bruce Jenner Christmas party in December of 1993?

# 1486 (Nods head.)

# 1487 Q:

And you are indicating that you were not present?

# 1488 A:

Yes.

# 1489 Q:

So the statements about that party attributed to you are not correct?

# 1490 A:

Right.

# 1491 Q:

Or the observations attributed to you are not correct?

# 1492 A:

Correct.

# 1493 Q:

Okay. Now, what is the reason that you broke off your agreement with Brooke Skulski?

# 1494 A:

First, she wanted a sensationalized book, and I said, "I don't want a sensationalized book."

She says, "Cora, you have to expose yourself. You've got to talk. Nobody knows you."

That's why I ended up doing that, because she said, "You've got to do something or else nobody"-no publisher will want your book because nobody knows who Cora Fischman is."

And I said no, and that's why I kept on refusing to-I hold onto that one-year contract with her, but I told her, "I'll just put the book on hold," because I didn't want a sensational book. She wanted a sensational book, and I said I wanted to humanize Nicole; I wanted people to know who Nicole was. That's all I was-that was my intention if I wanted to ever write a book.

# 1495 Q:

Okay. And that was unacceptable to her?

# 1496 A:

She believes that if you do something like this in the tabloid, you would-people will know who I am, and this is exactly what she wanted me to do.

# 1497 Q:

She wanted you to do the Star Magazine article, and you did so. Right?

# 1498 A:

I did so, yeah, but I insisted only if it's a good article. I will not do anything that would harm.

# 1499 Q:

And after you did this article, what then caused you to stop working with Brooke Skulski on the book?

# 1500 A:

One was because I was subpoenaed, so when you're subpoenaed in the criminal, you can't do anything; you can't talk about the case or anything like that. So that one. Number two, she was very opinionated, and the voice that was coming from her, I didn't like the tone of her voice. It was just too-she-it was more a tabloid, and I didn't want a sensationalized book. I wanted a book that would memorialize my friend. That's all I wanted.

# 1501 Q:

Is-your lawsuit against the National Enquirer, does that have anything to do with Brooke Skulski?

# 1502 A:

Yes.

# 1503 Q:

What does that have to do with Brooke?

# 1504 A:

Because of that picture. She is the one, you know, she said, you know, "We need pictures."

I said, "Well, what kind of pictures? I don't want"-and I said, "Okay, we'll take this picture. It's been in the National Enquirer, I said, "Yeah, my housekeeper stole that picture," and that's when the lawsuit came.

# 1505 Q:

But you authorized the Star to print that picture. Right?

Was that picture included in the Star Magazine article?

# 1506 A:

Yeah. But they didn't put it on the first page, but they put it on the inside page, see, because they couldn't do that because at that time National Enquirer put it on the front page.

# 1507 Q:

Before this article came out, the National Enquirer printed-

# 1508 A:

No. The same week they had the same article. One was the Christmas story but with my picture on the National Enquirer. Whatever that family picture, National Enquirer put it on the front page and Star put it on the middle page.

# 1509 Q:

Did you agree to do an article for National Enquirer also?

# 1510 A:

No.

# 1511 Q:

And so what article did National Enquirer do the same week about you?

# 1512 A:

I don't remember.

# 1513 Q:

But you had nothing to do with that article?

# 1514 A:

No.

# 1515 Q:

Did Brooke provide information for that article?

# 1516 A:

I don't know. I don't think so.

# 1517 Q:

Did you copyright that photograph? Did you apply for a copyright on that photograph?

# 1518 MR. BAKER:

Irrelevant.

# 1519 MS. FISCHMAN:

When? At that time?

# 1520

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1521 Q:

No. At any time

# 1522 A:

Yes.

# 1523 Q:

How many photographs-

# 1524 A:

How many photographs?

# 1525 Q:

-did you seek to copyright?

# 1526 A:

I don't know. How many photos?

# 1527 MR. KRAMER:

He is asking your knowledge. It's attached to exhibits to the deposition transcript.

# 1528

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1529 Q:

Why did you seek a copyright on a photograph?

# 1530 MR. KRAMER:

Don't say anything that your lawyers may have told you.

# 1531

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1532 Q:

You can't answer because of lawyers?

# 1533 A:

Yes.

# 1534 Q:

Let's get beck to the chronology of events in 1993 to 1994. Okay? And I was asking you about whether Nicole and OJ. Simpson had ever had any big fights, and you told me you didn't know of any at the time; later on found out about the 911 call. Okay?

# 1535 A:

Okay.

# 1536 Q:

Now, was there any time at all going into early '94 leading up to Nicole's trip to Cabo that she told you that she did not think things were going to work out after all?

# 1537 A:

As far as I can remember, she said that I think around February of '94.

# 1538 Q:

What did she say to you then?

# 1539 A:

She said that-I don't know. It's -I think it was also-I think it was after Cabo. That was after the- that's when she decided that it's not gonna work out.

# 1540 Q:

Did she tell you what caused her to feel that way, that it was not going to work out after all?

# 1541 A:

Because she said, "It's really not fair. OJ. and I, when we see each other, we get into each other and then he leaves," and then she said she gets lonely again, and she doesn't like that feeling. So she says, "I crave for him. I crave for him."

# 1542 Q:

So you are saying that she wanted to break off the relationship because she didn't want to be alone so much of the time?

# 1543 A:

Yes. Yes.

# 1544 Q:

Did she tell you about anything that happened at Cabo that disturbed her or upset her?

# 1545 A:

This was one incident where she said, "Oh, what happened? There were"-she said at some point she felt bored.

I said, "Why?"

"Because," she says, "it's so typical, you know. Everybody talks to OJ., and I'm just sitting there."

And I said, "What do you mean," you know? "It's like you're like a second- class citizen?"

And she said, "Yeah."

I said, "Well," you know, "that's what"-"gee, you're married to OJ."

# 1546 Q:

Did she tell you that OJ. and she had had an argument or fight in Cabo?

# 1547 A:

No. Actually, she said they had a great time. They had a great-that was-she said that was their best sex. They had a great time.

# 1548 Q:

Did she tell you that OJ. had upset her about making comments concerning frogs?

# 1549 MR. BAKER:

Leading.

# 1550 MS. FISCHMAN:

Frogs?

# 1551

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1552 Q:

Frogs.

# 1553 A:

No.

# 1554 Q:

Did you know that Nicole had a frog phobia?

# 1555 A:

Yes.

# 1556 Q:

She told you that?

# 1557 A:

Oh, yes.

# 1558 Q:

Did she tell you that OJ. was teasing her about that in Cabo?

# 1559 A:

It was [Name Deleted]who was teasing her, [Name Deleted]

# 1560 Q:

Who is that?

# 1561 A:

[Name Deleted].

# 1562 Q:

[Name Deleted]? You don't mean [Name Deleted], do you? [Name Deleted] is the fellow that she met a year or two before.

# 1563 A:

Yeah, right, before. That's how this whole thing started, where [Name Deleted]tried to tease-

# 1564 Q:

[Name Deleted]?

# 1565 A:

[Name Deleted] tried to tease Nicole with the frog and Nicole started screaming, or something like that.

# 1566 Q:

But that didn't occur in Cabo in April of '94. Right?

# 1567 A:

No, not in April.

# 1568 Q:

Did she tell you that OJ. had teased her about frogs in April '94?

# 1569 A:

No, she didn't tell me that.

# 1570 Q:

Did she tell you that OJ. had been flirting with another woman in Cabo?

# 1571 A:

No.

# 1572 Q:

She told you that she had had sex with another guy named [Name Deleted]in Cabo. Right?

# 1573 A:

Yes. She messed around.

# 1574 Q:

She messed around. And to your knowledge, now, this was the first time she had been with another man in over a year, since the time she decided to make things work with OJ. Simpson. Right?

# 1575 A:

Uh-huh, yes.

# 1576 Q:

So weren't you surprised by that?

# 1577 A:

Yes, I was.

# 1578 Q:

So did you inquire what happened, "Why did you decide to end your reconciliation?.

# 1579 A:

Well, at that time she was also seeing Marcus Allen. See, Marcus Allen was at her house intermittently. You know, not all the time. But I told you whenever Nicole-whenever OJ. was out of town-

# 1580 Q:

You mean even during the time that Nicole was living at Bundy?

# 1581 A:

Yes.

# 1582 Q:

And even before the Cabo trip?

# 1583 A:

I think so, yes.

# 1584 Q:

So when did she start to see Marcus Allen again?

# 1585 A:

You know, I can't-see, sometimes his name just popped out one time and goes, "He just called and I saw him."

I said, "Oh, really?" You know, so I really was not paying attention to the time frame.

# 1586 Q:

By this time Marcus Allen was married. Right?

# 1587 A:

Yes.

# 1588 Q:

Marcus had gotten married at OJ. Simpson's house in August of 1993. Right?

# 1589 A:

June of 19--

# 1590 Q:

June of 1993. Right?

# 1591 A:

Right.

# 1592 Q:

Now, how long after June of 1993 did Nicole start seeing Marcus again?

# 1593 A:

I don't know. I don't know.

# 1594 Q:

Now, earlier you had told me that Nicole and OJ. had agreed to be monogamous when they decided to reconcile in April of '93. Right?

# 1595 A:

Right.

# 1596 Q:

And so as far as you know, Nicole breached that understanding and that agreement when she started to see Marcus Allen when he would come into town when OJ. would go out of town. Right?

# 1597 A:

Right.

# 1598 Q:

And is that the only example of that you knew of Nicole breaching that agreement with OJ. Simpson?

# 1599 A:

Yes.

# 1600 Q:

When Nicole would tell you that she would see Marcus, did she also tell you that she didn't want things to work out any longer with OJ. Simpson or that she was still going to try to do that?

# 1601 A:

Yes, she still wanted to work things out with-

# 1602 Q:

Well, did she tell you why then she was continuing to see Marcus Allen from time to time?

# 1603 A:

Well, Marcus Allen kept on coming on to her.

# 1604 Q:

Did they have a strong sexual attraction, Marcus Allen and Nicole?

# 1605 A:

Yes. Yes.

# 1606 Q:

Have you ever spoken to Marcus Allen about any of this?

# 1607 A:

No.

# 1608 Q:

When Nicole told you that she had messed around in Cabo with this guy named [Name Deleted], she also told you that at this point in time she didn't think things were going to work out with Mr. Simpson, right, and she was going to try to move on with her life?

# 1609 A:

She didn't say that yet. She said she's not ready to be with OJ. yet.

# 1610 Q:

I see. But she was going to still try to pretend that she was going to work things out with him. Right?

# 1611 A:

Right.

# 1612 Q:

But then later on when she came back a

while later, she told you that she was going to stop altogether. Right?

# 1613 A:

Yeah, right.

# 1614 Q:

And just so I'm clear on this, can you give me a date when that-when she told you that it was over for good?

# 1615 A:

That was when OJ. wrote that letter.

# 1616 Q:

Around that time?

# 1617 A:

Right.

# 1618 Q:

That's when she told you it's over for good?

# 1619 A:

She says, "I don't want to"-yes.

# 1620 Q:

Is that the first time that she told you that that was it; she wasn't going to try to work things out any longer with him.'

# 1621 A:

Yes.

# 1622 Q:

But by that time wasn't she going out with girlfriends and dating and going partying with [Name Deleted] and Ron Goldman?

# 1623 A:

Yes.

# 1624 Q:

But that's not something she was doing earlier, before her trip to Cabo. Right.,

# 1625 A:

Before her trip to Cabo?

# 1626 Q:

Yeah. She wasn't going out with other men?

# 1627 A:

No, she wasn't going-

# 1628 Q:

So her behavior after Cabo changed considerably. Correct?

# 1629 A:

Oh, wait a minute. She was seeing another man around... I'm trying to keep my... February she met somebody.

# 1630 Q:

February of 1994, the year that she died.

# 1631 A:

Yes.

# 1632 Q:

And who did she meet?

# 1633 A:

[Name Deleted].

# 1634 Q:

And who is [Name Deleted]?

# 1635 A:

[Name Deleted] is a friend of [Name Deleted].

# 1636 Q:

Okay. And tell me about this relationship.

# 1637 A:

We met-it was actually February-it was March now, around-

# 1638 Q:

Before Cabo.

# 1639 A:

Yes, before Cabo, because we went shopping. Yeah, March of 1994. Nicole and I were shopping for clothes at Brentwood Gardens, and these two guys kept following us, and one of the guys introduced herself-himself to Nicole, and that was [Name Deleted].

# 1640 Q:

And who was the other person?

# 1641 A:

I don't know.

# 1642 Q:

Was it Ron Goldman?

# 1643 A:

I don't know.

# 1644 Q:

By this time you had never met Ron Goldman. Right?

# 1645 A:

No.

# 1646 Q:

And Nicole hadn't either to you knowledge. Right?

# 1647 A:

No.

# 1648 Q:

And what then happened between Mike Davis and Nicole?

# 1649 A:

Mike-Nicole was very attracted to Michael, and she told me that she liked that guy.

"He's really cute." So that was-and she kind of pursued Michael, but Michael-when Michael found out that she was OJ.'s ex-wife, that's when, you know, she - you know, he stopped-kinda like backed off a little bit, but Nicole still continued pursuing [Name Deleted].

# 1650 Q:

And how old was [Name Deleted]?

# 1651 A:

Michael's 24.

# 1652 Q:

What did he do?

# 1653 A:

He's a trainer.

# 1654 Q:

Where?

# 1655 A:

At The Gym.

# 1656 Q:

That's the name of a health- -The Gym. -club in Brentwood called The Gym.'

# 1657 A:

The Gym.

# 1658 Q:

Okay. And he's a trainer there?

# 1659 A:

Yes.

# 1660 Q:

Did she have a romantic relationship with [Name Deleted]?

# 1661 A:

Yes.

# 1662 Q:

How long did that last?

# 1663 A:

Not really a romantic relationship, but-

# 1664 Q:

They had sex?

# 1665 A:

Is that what you call it, sex, oral sex? I don't know. What do you call it? I don't know.

# 1666 MR. KELLY:

Push that a little bit, Dan.

# 1667

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1668 Q:

Yeah, I would call oral sex sex, if that's what you're asking me.

# 1669 A:

Okay.

# 1670 Q:

They had oral sex

# 1671 A:

Yes.

# 1672 Q:

--is that what you're telling us?

# 1673 A:

Yes.

# 1674 Q:

Okay. And how do you know that?

# 1675 A:

Because Nicole told me.

# 1676 Q:

They had oral sex on more than one occasion?

# 1677 A:

Yes.

# 1678 Q:

Did she say that that's all they had together?

# 1679 A:

Yes.

# 1680 Q:

Okay. And, now, when Nicole was having this relationship with [Name Deleted], did you ask her what did this mean in terms of her relationship with OJ. Simpson, whether she was growing disenchanted with that relationship, why she was doing this?

# 1681 A:

Well, she said that she was getting old and that she-she says, you know, "Core, when we're 50 years old, nobody's gonna look at. Look at this." You know, she says-I think she was fascinated by young men being attracted to her. You know, she liked that feeling.

# 1682 MR. PETROCELLI:

Why don't we break here for lunch.

# 1683 MS. FISCHMAN:

Okay.

THEVIDEOGRAPHER: This is the end of tape No. 1 of Volume II. The time is approximately 12:16, and we are off the record.

# 1684 (At the hour of 12:16 p.m., a luncheon recess was taken, the deposition to resume at 1:16 p.m.)

# 1685 (At the hour of 1:36 p.m., the deposition of CORA A. FISCHMAN was resumed at the same place, the same persons being present.)

# 1686 (Plaintiffs' Exhibits 161 through 163 were marked for identification by the reporter and are attached hereto.)

# 1687

EXAMINATION (Resumed)

# 1688

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1689 Q:

I would like to have-or have had marked during the break, I should say, the next exhibit in order, Exhibit 161, which is your deposition in the case against the National Enquirer, and that's the only other document that you have found responsive to our subpoena. Is that correct?

# 1690 A:

Yes.

# 1691 Q:

You don't have the Brooke Skulski pages?

# 1692 A:

No.

# 1693 Q:

Exhibit 162 is a photograph of a key. Do you recognize the key depicted in that photograph?

# 1694 A:

Yes.

# 1695 Q:

Is that-what is it?

# 1696 A:

It's my key.

# 1697 Q:

It's the key that Nicole gave you to her condominium, 875 Bundy?

# 1698 A:

Yes.

# 1699 Q:

Exhibit 163, do you recognize it? It's a photograph of, as you can see, two keys on a key chain.

# 1700 A:

Yes.

# 1701 Q:

What are the keys that you see depicted in Exhibit 163?

# 1702 A:

These are the keys that-what do you call them-the detective showed me.

# 1703 Q:

Are those the keys that Nicole would put under her planter-

# 1704 Q:

-when she would go jogging-

# 1705 A:

Yes.

# 1706 Q:

-when she lived at Bundy?

# 1707 A:

Yes.

# 1708 Q:

You talked about that before. Right? You talked about that earlier today, that she would put the two keys on a key chain in a planter in front on her condominium when you and she would go off running when she lived at Bundy. Right?

# 1709 A:

Yes.

# 1710 Q:

And those are the keys that you see in Exhibit 163. Correct?

# 1711 A:

Yes.

# 1712 Q:

Thank you. These keys were found in OJ. Simpson's possession when he was arrested on June 17. Do you know how they got there?

# 1713 A:

I don't know.

# 1714 Q:

These keys, the ones depicted in Exhibit 163, are the keys that Nicole told you were missing in the last days of her life. Correct?

# 1715 A:

That's the key, then.

# 1716 Q:

Correct?

# 1717 A:

Correct.

# 1718 Q:

Did Nicole ever tell you about an incident concerning Mr. Simpson's maid Michelle?

# 1719 A:

Yes.

# 1720 Q:

Relate that incident to us. Excuse me. Tell us what Nicole told you about that incident.

# 1721 A:

She slapped Michelle, and Michelle fell on the floor, because she couldn't stand her.

# 1722 Q:

Who couldn't stand whom?

# 1723 A:

Nicole couldn't find-couldn't stand Michelle.

# 1724 Q:

Nicole told you that she just walked up to Michelle and knocked her down to the floor?

# 1725 A:

Oh, no, no. They had an argument. They had an argument about-at the time they had an argument about the kids wanting to play inside, and Michelle doesn't like the kids inside because the house will get dirty, you know, and they had a heated conversation, and then what Nicole did was slap Michelle, and Michelle fell on the floor.

# 1726 Q:

What happened then?

# 1727 A:

What happened then?

# 1728 Q:

Yes.

# 1729 A:

She called me that day and she said, "Don't tell anybody about this, but," you know, "I just couldn't stand Michelle, and Michelle's a crazy woman, and I just slapped her. I couldn't stand the way she talked to me." And that was it. And then Michelle left-

# 1730 Q:

Because of that incident?

# 1731 A:

Pretty much that incident, too, you know.

# 1732 Q:

And she knew that-Michelle knew that OJ. and Nicole were still seeing each other and that Nicole might move back in the house?

# 1733 A:

Right. See, one of the reasons why Nicole told me she didn't want to move there unless-unless Michelle lives there , because Michelle and Nicole couldn't get along well.

# 1734 Q:

So Nicole wanted Michelle to leave before she moved back?

# 1735 A:

Exactly.

# 1736 Q:

And did you ever talk to OJ. Simpson about this?

# 1737 A:

Yes.

# 1738 Q:

And what did OJ. say?

# 1739 A:

Well, OJ. thought that Nicole was wrong in doing that, because at the time he told me that she doesn't have -"Nicole doesn't have the right to slap Michelle because," he said, you know, "I'm paying this woman, not Nicole. This is my housekeeper, not Nicole's.. So pretty much that's what-

# 1740 Q:

Did Mr. Simpson say to you that he would ask Michelle to leave if Nicole moved back into the house?

# 1741 A:

Well, it kinda worked out that way already because Michelle at that time said, "I'm not gonna work for Mrs. Simpson," you know.

# 1742 Q:

For whom?

# 1743 A:

Mrs. Simpson.

# 1744 Q:

"Mrs. Simpson," meaning Nicole?

# 1745 A:

Yes.

# 1746 Q:

So Michelle, based on your understanding, was anticipating Nicole's moving back into the house?

# 1747 A:

Right, uh-huh.

# 1748 Q:

And OJ. Let her go?

# 1749 A:

Yes.

# 1750 Q:

So OJ. didn't tell her, "Don't leave because Nicole's not moving in." He never said that to her to your knowledge. Right?

# 1751 MR. BAKER:

Speculation.

# 1752 MS. FISCHMAN:

No-

# 1753 MR. KRAMER:

Do you have any knowledge one way or the other?

# 1754 MS. FISCHMAN:

If what?

# 1755 MR. KRAMER:

Whether this conversation took place between Mr. Simpson and Michelle.

# 1756 MS. FISCHMAN:

Well, no, I don't know that conversation. I'm sorry.

# 1757

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1758 Q:

Who is [Name Deleted]?

# 1759 A:

[Name Deleted] is the bartender of one of the clubs that was very attracted to Nicole, and that's pretty much, you know-as Nicole calls-Nicole called [Name Deleted] the freeloader.

# 1760 Q:

Why?

# 1761 A:

Because every time they went on vacation he was there, and he got everything free.

# 1762 Q:

From whom'

# 1763 A:

All the trips when they went to Cabo, he was there.

# 1764 Q:

Who paid his way?

# 1765 A:

Who paid?

# 1766 Q:

How did he go there for free?

# 1767 A:

Well, when Nicole went to Cabo, I mean everything was paid for, so it was like he was there. I mean, he didn't pay for the hotel or the villa.

# 1768 Q:

You mean he stayed there for free?

# 1769 A:

Exactly.

# 1770 Q:

And he was Nicole's friend?

# 1771 A:

Pretty much, yes.

# 1772 Q:

And how long did Nicole know [Name Deleted]?

# 1773 A:

I don't know.

# 1774 Q:

A year or more?

# 1775 A:

Excuse me?

# 1776 Q:

A year or more?

# 1777 A:

Yes.

# 1778 Q:

And were you friendly with him also?

# 1779 A:

No. I knew of him, but I wasn't friendly.

# 1780 Q:

Okay. Before the break we were talking about [Name Deleted].

# 1781 A:

Yes.

# 1782 Q:

And I had asked you earlier whether Marcus Allen was the only breach of Nicole's understanding with OJ. about being monogamous during the reconciliation period, and you said yes. Then later on you told me about another person with whom she had sex; namely, [Name Deleted].

# 1783 A:

Well, you know, it just-

# 1784 Q:

You didn't remember?

# 1785 A:

I didn't remember, and then as we got along, you know-

# 1786 Q:

Are there any other persons now that you may remember that you didn't tell me about before?

# 1787 A:

That's it.

# 1788 Q:

Is that it?

# 1789 A:

Yes.

# 1790 Q:

Okay. Now, do you know whether

OJ. Simpson knew about Mike Davis?

# 1791 A:

No, he doesn't know about Mike Davis.

# 1792 Q:

Did you ever tell him about it?

# 1793 A:

No.

# 1794 Q:

At any point in time?

# 1795 A:

No.

# 1796 Q:

Up to today?

# 1797 A:

Well, you know, about the book, yes. He asked me about that "Brentwood Hello," so...

# 1798 Q:

Is Mike Davis the person who is mentioned in the book when it discusses the "Brentwood Hello?

# 1799 A:

Yes.

# 1800 Q:

So that occurred in the 1994 time period?

# 1801 A:

Yes.

# 1802 Q:

I see. How do you know that that person in the book in the discussion of the "Brentwood Hello" incident is Mike Davis?

# 1803 A:

Because Nicole told me. And also I- after Nicole-

# 1804 Q:

Nicole called it the "Brentwood Hello"? She used that terminology to you?

# 1805 A:

No. Faye used that. I was just surprised when I read about that in the book.

# 1806 Q:

So how do you know it's the same incident, is what I'm getting to?

# 1807 A:

How come it's the same incident?

# 1808 Q:

How do you know that it is the same incident?

As I understand the reference in the book, there was a person that Nicole didn't even know and just went into this guy's apartment and had oral sex with somebody.

# 1809 A:

Exactly. That's him.

# 1810 Q:

But she knew Mike Davis.

# 1811 A:

She didn't know [Name Deleted]. We just met [Name Deleted] around March.

# 1812 Q:

Yeah?

# 1813 A:

I mean, Nicole didn't just walk into a stranger's house and do the act.

# 1814 Q:

So this was Mike Davis, then. Right?

# 1815 A:

Yes.

# 1816 Q:

Okay. And what happened to stop the Davis relationship? How did that come to an end?

# 1817 A:

There was really no relationship.

# 1818 Q:

Just sex?

# 1819 A:

Yes.

# 1820 Q:

Was it clear in your mind, as of the time of this Mike Davis incident together with the Marcus Allen situation, that Nicole really wasn't going to be getting back together with Mr. Simpson on a permanent basis?

# 1821 MR. BAKER:

Leading.

# 1822 MS. FISCHMAN:

On a permanent basis?

# 1823

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1824 Q:

Yeah. Was it becoming clear to you that that was not going to happen?

# 1825 A:

I don't know. I can't answer that.

# 1826 Q:

Did she tell you that it was unlikely that she was going to move back in at that point in time?

# 1827 A:

She told me she was not reedy to move back in.

# 1828 Q:

Did she tell you that she had told Mr. Simpson that she wasn't ready?

# 1829 A:

I think she was thinking about mentioning it to him.

# 1830 Q:

And do you know when she first told him/

# 1831 A:

I think when she returned the bracelet, that's when she told OJ.

# 1832 Q:

I am going to be asking you some questions from the statement that you have made to Michael Viner and the people from the National Enquirer that was recorded on tape.

# 1833 A:

Uh-huh.

# 1834 Q:

You've already told us everything that you said was true to the best of your knowledge, but I want to follow up on a couple of specific topics.

Do you have a copy of this?

# 1835 MR. BAKER:

I do.

# 1836 MR. PETROCELLI:

I am going to be - the page references that I will mention will be to the District Attorney's transcription of that interview. Okay?

# 1837 Q:

On page 2, you say, referring to OJ. Simpson:

...this guy did everything. He kept on saying he's 47 years old and don't wanna have another family, he just wanted to be with Nicole."

# 1838 A:

Wanted-yes.

# 1839 Q:

And that's what OJ. Simpson told you?

# 1840 A:

Yes.

# 1841 Q:

Okay. When did he tell you that?

# 1842 A:

During one of our conversations, you know.

# 1843 Q:

Told you that more than once?

# 1844 A:

I would say yes.

# 1845 Q:

Okay. You also on page 3 of the transcript, you mention that Nicole told you she lost her self-worth and identity.

Is that something Nicole told you?

# 1846 A:

We talked about it. We talked about it, how you lose your identity being with this powerful men. It's sort of like we became a shadow of our husbands.

# 1847 Q:

And that's how Nicole told you she felt?

# 1848 A:

Yes. \When she was living with and married to OJ. Simpson and she had felt that she had lost her self worth and identity?

# 1849 A:

Well, I didn't say-we-

# 1850 Q:

Is that-

# 1851 A:

We talked about it.

# 1852 Q:

And that's what she told you, that that's how she felt.

# 1853 A:

Yes.

# 1854 Q:

You indicate at page 5 of this transcript that:

"...Nicole had a lot of friends. She thought she had a lot of friends. When she moved out all of them disappeared, they all went to OJ." You are talking about the time when Nicole got divorced from OJ. Correct?

# 1855 A:

Yes.

# 1856 Q:

And who were the friends that left?

# 1857 A:

That didn't stop talking? Well, like Linda Schulman, she was very friendly with Linda Schulman, and she was hurt by the breakup of that relationship, and, you know, a few people. I mean, I don't know the other friends.

# 1858 Q:

Linda Schulman is one of the people you had in mind?

# 1859 A:

Yeah. Yeah.

# 1860 Q:

And anybody else who abandoned Nicole and went to OJ. when Nicole and OJ. split up?

# 1861 A:

Well, you know, they had a lot of friends, but she kept on mentioning about, "Most of my friends who I thought were my friends all went to OJ."

# 1862 Q:

Can you name any of them besides Linda Schulman?

# 1863 A:

I can only name Linda Schulman because she's the only one I knew.

# 1864 Q:

At page 6 you state that when Nicole was-after she and OJ. separated and were divorced:

"...I know OJ. wanted to know more about Nicole, whatever Nicole was doing with me because he knew I was out...with her" That's true, that OJ. would waft to find out from you what Nicole was doing. Right?

# 1865 A:

Yes.

# 1866 Q:

Okay. You say on page 7 that when Nicole, again, got divorced:

"...nobody supported her, even her family. The family didn't talk to her, nobody was there for her, and she felt really bad about it." Is that what she told you?

# 1867 A:

Yes.

# 1868 Q:

Now we are back in the May and June of 1994 time frame, right before Nicole's death. We're talking about this IRS letter and-

# 1869 MR. BAKER:

What page?

# 1870 MR. PETROCELLI:

Page 17.

# 1871

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1872 Q:

-and you say:

"I think part of the reason why OJ. was so upset with Nicole was OJ called Nicole ...- Nicole called _ OJ. and said, 'How dare you buy my...friends? How come you're buying my friends?' -

"The reason why she said that was because...OJ. wrote a check to...Christian for five thousand and something."

# 1873 A:

Yeah.

# 1874 Q:

Okay. Is that what Nicole told you?

# 1875 A:

Yes.

# 1876 Q:

And did OJ. also tell you that?

# 1877 A:

No.

# 1878 Q:

Did you have a conversation with OJ. about this?

# 1879 MR. BAKER:

Which part?

# 1880

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1881 Q:

About the part that Nicole was so upset with him and he was upset with her because-

# 1882 A:

Oh, yes, OJ. told me about that.

# 1883 Q:

Okay. Now relate that conversation to me.

# 1884 A:

Well, he told me that the 5,000 was- they were doing a business, and Faye also told me this, that they were doing a business venture about some pills or whatever, vitamins or whatever. I don't remember. Or jet lag pill, something like that, and that was the $5,000.

# 1885 Q:

But OJ. Simpson told you that he was very upset with Nicole at this point in time. Right?

# 1886 A:

Yes, because he said, you know, "Why does she think I'm buying her friends? I'm not buying her friends. Faye was the one who invited herself to go to that sports spectacular."

# 1887 Q:

And OJ. told you that Nicole had called him up and was screaming at him about this. Right?

# 1888 A:

Yes. And he thought that she was being unfair.

# 1889 MR. BAKER:

Speculation.

# 1890 MS. FISCHMAN:

Who's being unfair?

# 1891

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1892 Q:

OJ. told you that he didn't think Nicole was being "fair with him. Correct?

# 1893 A:

Being fair with him'

# 1894 Q:

Yeah.

# 1895 A:

Yes.

# 1896 Q:

He didn't think it was his fault, in other words. Right?

# 1897 MR. BAKER:

Speculation.

# 1898 MS. FISCHMAN:

I'm sorry. I'm lost.

# 1899

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1900 Q:

OJ. told you that he didn't do anything wrong; nothing was his fault; Nicole had no right to be upset with him.

# 1901 A:

Right.

# 1902 Q:

That's the substance of what he told you Correct?

# 1903 A:

Correct.

# 1904 Q:

And you say at page 19 on the same subject, "And so she," referring to Nicole, "called OJ. and said to OJ., 'How dare you buy-you buy everything. You took my friends away, took my family,'" blank, "important in her life," I guess meaning everything important in her life.

Is that what Nicole told you?

# 1905 A:

Pretty much, yes.

# 1906 Q:

On page 20, referring to the recital, you indicate that your husband, Ron Fischman, talked to OJ. Simpson at the recital.

# 1907 A:

Yes.

# 1908 Q:

What did Ron tell you that he said to your husband-to OJ. Simpson at the recital?

# 1909 A:

What they talked about is - when I said they talked, is they talked because they were gonna have pictures taken, but other than that, I don't know what they talked about, so...

# 1910 Q:

On page 24. On page 24 of your transcript, you are talking about Nicole's feelings concerning the beating in 1989.

# 1911 A:

Uh-huh.

# 1912 Q:

And you say: "...that was the only one that I know, 'cause she really never talked about it, she felt embarrassed, she felt that nobody should know about these things." Is that what Nicole told you?

# 1913 A:

She told me she was embarrassed, yeah, with that '89 incident.

# 1914 Q:

And she told you that she felt that nobody should know about these things?

# 1915 A:

She felt funny, yes.

# 1916 Q:

She felt ashamed?

# 1917 A:

Kinda felt funny because she felt that it was her fault.

# 1918 Q:

Okay. Did she tell you that this was the sort of thing she was not comfortable telling people; this was private?

# 1919 A:

Yes.

# 1920 Q:

Did she tell you she was ashamed of the incident?

# 1921 A:

No. She said she was just embarrassed.

# 1922 Q:

Embarrassed?

# 1923 A:

Yeah.

# 1924 Q:

Okay. Page25. You're talking about the Gretna Green incident in October of 1993.

# 1925 MR. KRAMER:

Do you know the incident to which he is referring?

# 1926 MS. FISCHMAN:

The 911?

# 1927

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1928 Q:

Yeah.

# 1929 MR. KRAMER:

Okay.

# 1930

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1931 Q:

"See what happened"-this is you talking:

"See, what happened is Nicole is so afraid of OJ.'s voice. OJ. when...he's upset, I mean, he is really -he's got a very bad temper. And, in fact, Nicole said to OJ., 'If you really went this marriage to work out you're gonna have to go to therapy to control your anger.' And OJ. said, 'Yeah, I'm going to. I'm working on it, I'm working on it."'

# 1932 A:

That's what Nicole told me, yes. Nicole told me that.

# 1933 Q:

And did you talk to OJ. about that?

# 1934 A:

No.

Q; When you said, "And OJ. said, 'Yeah, I'm going to. I'm working on it, I'm working on it.'"

# 1935 A:

That's what Nicole told me.

# 1936 Q:

That OJ. said?

# 1937 A:

That was their conversation, yeah.

# 1938 MR. PETROCELLI:

Okay. Page 27.

# 1939 Q:

Concerning the reason for the beating on New Year's Eve 1989, you mentioned on page 27 of this transcript that the reason why that happened was because of a "pair of earrings."

# 1940 A:

Right.

# 1941 Q:

Can you tell us what Nicole told you about that incident?

# 1942 A:

She sew those pair of earrings and she thought it was hers, and then when she asked OJ. or something like that, she found out it wasn't really hers, but it was for another woman.

# 1943 Q:

Named?

# 1944 A:

I don't know.

# 1945 Q:

Tawny Kitaen?

# 1946 A:

She didn't mention.

# 1947 Q:

Okay. If you told Michael Viner and the National Enquirer that it was Tawny Kitaen, would that be accurate?

# 1948 A:

Well, at the time they were mentioning Tawny Kitaen, so I would assume, but I'm not sure.

# 1949 Q:

Okay. Page 28. You were talking here about OJ. Simpson's statement in his suicide letter that he was a battered spouse, and you were asked about that, and you said:

"Because Nicole didn't know what to do. First, she'd want to go back to the rely on --that she wanted to go back to the relationship. Then she would say...I mean, like they went to -we went to Super Bowl. She said, 'Oh, I have to be nice now to OJ. or else, you know, we won't go. I mean, you know, for you I'll be nice because we're all going to the Super Bowl.' Things like that." Is that what Nicole told you?

# 1950 A:

Well, on our run we kid around. I mean, she said, "I'd better be nice to him," you know, because she'd never been to a Super Bowl. Yeah, she mentioned that. It's all there.

# 1951 MR. KELLY:

I'm sorry. I couldn't hear that.

# 1952 MS. FISCHMAN:

I said it's all there, I said.

# 1953

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 1954 Q:

Talking about Nicole's not willing to make a commitment to OJ. Simpson, on page 30, talking about Nicole going through a phase, and Nicole says, "You know, Cora, well, I'm just going through a phase in my life." And now you continue: "And I remember OJ. used to say, 'Oh, Nicole, you're going '- 'you're gonna go through this, I wonder-'he says, 'I don't know if I can go through when you turn 40, you know: ... He'd kid around. He says, 'You're only 35, and look what happened, you don't even wanna be with me 'cause I'm old:"

# 1955 A:

Yeah, it's true.

# 1956 Q:

Is that what OJ. told you?

# 1957 A:

No. That was the conversation- I was there when we used to kid around about our age and stuff, yeah.

# 1958 Q:

What I want to know is whether you-

# 1959 A:

No. Nicole told me that.

# 1960 Q:

OJ. Simpson told you none of that?

# 1961 A:

No. See, he didn't tell me, but that was like the-when we were together, that was the conversatioin.

# 1962 Q:

When you were together with whom'

# 1963 A:

With OJ. and Nicole.

# 1964 Q:

And you would hear OJ.-

# 1965 A:

Yes.

# 1966 Q:

-say, "Oh, Nicole you're gonna go through this. I don't know if I can go through when you turn 40"?

# 1967 A:

Yes.

# 1968 Q:

Okay. "You're only 35 and look what happened. You don't even wanna be with me because I'm old."

# 1969 A:

Exactly.

# 1970 Q:

Those are statements that OJ. made in your presence to Nicole.

# 1971 A:

Right.

# 1972 Q:

Okay. Now, later on on the same page, page 30, you say:

"I felt like he," referring to OJ. Simpson, "was abused too is because she kind of destroyed him to a point where like she really is saying, 'How dare you. You're too old, you know, I don't wanna be with you anymore. You know, you're no fun to be with:"

# 1973 A:

Yeah, Nicole said that.

# 1974 Q:

And then you quote OJ. as saying: "Hey, listen, I'm 47-okay, my knees start cracking, okay, but I've worked hard, I used to (blank) you know, when I was 29 I was...all tight."

# 1975 A:

Yes.

# 1976 Q:

OJ. used to say that?

# 1977 A:

Yes.

# 1978 Q:

In your presence?

# 1979 A:

Yeah, we had that conversation.

# 1980 Q:

On page 33 you're referring to a big fight that you had with Nicole about I guess Marcus Allen.

# 1981 A:

Right.

# 1982 Q:

And you state, beginning at line 13: "...well, what happened was...I confirmed to OJ. that I knew it. And 'cause-and OJ. didn't like the fact that, uh, people knew about the affair because OJ. thought that it was just him and Nicole who knew about the affair. It turned out we knew.

"And I said, "Well, don't worry about that, you know, I won't say anything: "Nicole confronted me on that one and I didn't like it the way she confronted me. And I said, 'Listen (blank) "But that was it. It wasn't, you know, a major fight

"And Nicole is tough. I mean, she can scream. Well, she has also a bad temper."

# 1983 Q:

When did that occur?

# 1984 A:

That was when Nicole told OJ. about her relationship with Marcus Allen.

# 1985 Q:

When they began to reconcile?

# 1986 A:

Exactly.

# 1987 Q:

And then OJ. Simpson called you up and got upset with you because you knew or-You said you-

# 1988 A:

No. -confirmed to OJ.-

# 1989 A:

No.

# 1990 Q:

-that you knew. That's what you said here.

# 1991 A:

During one of our conversation he did ask me-

# 1992 Q:

Who?

# 1993 A:

OJ.

# 1994 Q:

What did he ask you?

# 1995 A:

Oh, no, you know what? I know what happened there. I was upset because Nicole got mad at Ron at the time-

# 1996 Q:

Ron who?

# 1997 A:

Ron Fischman, because OJ. spoke to Ron about their reconcilliation, and when OJ. mentioned about Marcus Allen, Ron did not confirm or deny. And what happened was Nicole got upset that Ron knew about the Marcus Allen, and so Nicole confronted me. She says, "Why"-you know, "Why did you tell Ron," or, "Why did Ron tell Marcus Allen"-

# 1998 Q:

Why did Ron tell who?

# 1999 A:

"Why did Ron tell OJ?" And that was pretty much the gist of the conversation.

# 2000 Q:

And did you talk to OJ. Simpson about-

# 2001 A:

No.

# 2002 Q:

-the fact that you knew?

# 2003 A:

No, I don't think so.

# 2004 Q:

So you said in the transcript, "I confirmed to OJ. that I knew it.

# 2005 A:

Must be. I don't know. I don't remember.

# 2006 Q:

Can you recall anything about that conversatioin with OJ. Simpson?

# 2007 A:

I must have told him. I don't know. I'm pretty sure.

# 2008 Q:

And did he tell you that he was upset with you that you knew?

# 2009 MR. BAKER:

Leading.

# 2010 MS. FISCHMAN:

No, he was not upset with me. Nicole was upset with me.

# 2011

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2012 Q:

Was Mr. Simpson upset with Nicole that you knew?

# 2013 A:

Yes, I think so.

# 2014 Q:

And did he tell you-

# 2015 A:

That other people knew about their affair.

# 2016 Q:

Mr. Simpson told you he was upset because other people knew about the affair?

# 2017 A:

No. Nicole was upset with me, not OJ. Nicole was upset with me.

# 2018 Q:

But I am trying to find out what OJ. Simpson said to you about this. Okay? When you spoke to him about this, did he tell you that he was upset that other people knew?

# 2019 A:

No. Nicole told me that.

# 2020 Q:

Told you what?

# 2021 A:

That OJ. was upset with her that other people knew about the affair. Okay. And did you confirm that when you spoke to OJ. Simpson about this?

# 2022 A:

I don't remember. You know, that's pretty much...

# 2023 Q:

You don't remember?

# 2024 A:

Yeah.

# 2025 Q:

At page 36 you're talking about the early years of Mr. Simpson's relationship with Nicole, and you said in the interview with Mr. Viner, "And I remember OJ. used to say, 'I remember when Nicole was 17, I molded her.'" That's what OJ. Simpson told you. Right?

# 2026 A:

No.

# 2027 Q:

No?

# 2028 A:

That's not what OJ. Simpson said.

# 2029 Q:

That's what you said here.

# 2030 A:

That's what Ron used to tell me. "I molded you. " So I must have used that term to-

# 2031 Q:

You deny that?

# 2032 A:

Yes, I deny-

# 2033 Q:

You deny that OJ. Simpson told you that "I remember when Nicole was 17, I molded her"?

# 2034 MR. BAKER:

Argumentative and asked and answered.

# 2035 MS. FISCHMAN:

That's not true. I'm referring to myself in that one.

# 2036

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2037 Q:

What do you mean, you are referring to yourself?

# 2038 A:

Ron and I used to kid around about how-you know, Ron used to kid around with me. He says, "I molded you," so I must have used the word molded" with that, yeah, but Nicole was 17 when-

# 2039 Q:

Well, did OJ. Simpson tell you, "I remember when Nicole was 17, I molded her"?

# 2040 A:

No, that's not true, so I will deny that.

# 2041 Q:

Let me read on. Line 15:

# 2042 A:

Yeah, she screamed at me in that. She got mad at me and-yeah, that's true. "And I actually blame OJ. for this. I spoke to OJ. at some point and said, 'You know, it's actually your fault, you molded this woman (blank) you know. You exposed her to this lifestyle."'

# 2043 A:

Yes, I must have mentioned that to OJ., yes.

# 2044 Q:

So that is true, then.

# 2045 MR. BAKER:

What's true?

# 2046

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2047 Q:

That you had this conversation with OJ. about OJ. molding Nicole.

# 2048 A:

OJ. did not tell me that he molded Nicole. I'm-I used that word "molded." Know what I'm saying?

# 2049 Q:

No, I don't. Right in here you told Mr. Viner that OJ. Simpson said, "I remember when Nicole was 17, I molded her," and you're now denying that OJ. Simpson said that?

# 2050 MR. BAKER:

Asked and answered.

# 2051 MS. FISCHMAN:

I already told you that word "molded" came from Ron, and I always talk about how he molded me because I met Ron when I was young, so-but OJ. never told me about that. Yes, OJ. told me that he met Nicole when he was 17, how she looked so pretty and she was 17 and didn't know anything. Yes, so I must have used the word "molded" from that, but OJ. didn't tell me that.

# 2052

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2053 Q:

So you made all that up in here?

# 2054 MR. BAKER:

Argumentative.

# 2055

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2056 Q:

You made this all up? This whole paragraph is invented by you?

# 2057 A:

I don't think that's invented, but the gist of the situation is there. I mean-you know.

# 2058 Q:

No, I don't understand why it's there. Explain it to me.

# 2059 MR. BAKER:

Well, that's not a question. It doesn't matter if you understand anything.

# 2060 MR. KRAMER:

Do you understand the question?

# 2061

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2062 Q:

Here, why don't you read what you said. Okay? I would just like you to confirm that what-that that is true.

# 2063 MR. KRAMER:

From what line to what line would you like her to read?

# 2064 MR. PETROCELLI:

13.

# 2065 MR. KRAMER:

From line 13 on page 36.

# 2066 MS. FISCHMAN:

OJ. didn't say that.

# 2067

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2068 Q:

Read on.

# 2069 MR. KRAMER:

Well, read it. Why don't you just take a moment and read from line 13 down.

# 2070 (Witness reviews document.)

# 2071 MR. KRAMER:

Okay? You read it?

# 2072 MS. FISCHMAN:

Yes.

# 2073

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2074 Q:

So is it true what you said in the interview as reported here?

# 2075 MR. BAKER:

What's true?

# 2076 MS. FISCHMAN:

I didn't use the word "molded " I mean, no, OJ. didn't say -use the word "molded," no.

# 2077

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2078 Q:

And so you never blamed OJ. You never said, "you know, it's...your fault, you molded this woman." You never said that?"

# 2079 A:

Probably said that because I was mad. I don't know. But I never used the word "molded," that he molded -I used the word "molded," but OJ. did not say that, "I molded."

# 2080 Q:

So OJ.-what-

# 2081 A:

Must have used another word, but

# 2082 Q:

What you said here is false, then. Right?

# 2083 A:

Then we'll say false.

# 2084 Q:

So that was false. Okay? And also false is that you blamed OJ., said, "It's...your fault, you molded this woman." That's also false?

# 2085 A:

See, I remember I made that statement to him, so I remember that.

# 2086 Q:

You made what statement to him?

# 2087 A:

That I said, you know, "You molded Nicole for who she was."

# 2088 Q:

And what did he say in response to that?

# 2089 A:

I don't remember.

# 2090 Q:

Did he agree or disagree?

# 2091 A:

I think that that was a conversation that I had with him when he was in jail, so if he did that-if he-I didn't see his reaction, so...

# 2092 Q:

Why not? You were on the phone?

# 2093 A:

Over the phone, yeah.

# 2094 Q:

Did he disagree or agree with your statement?

# 2095 MR. BAKER:

You've asked her that twice now.

# 2096 MS. FISCHMAN:

He didn't-I didn't see his reaction.

# 2097

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2098 Q:

Well, what did he say?

# 2099 A:

He didn't disagree, so I don't know. There was silence.

# 2100 Q:

Okay. So he didn't say to you, "No, that's wrong. That's false. That's untrue. I never molded her"?

# 2101 A:

No, he didn't say anything like that.

# 2102 Q:

Okay. And why did you think that he had molded Nicole?

# 2103 A:

Because I felt that-well, this is what I feel about the whole thing: Like she was young and-you know, she was 17, and then she led a life with OJ.

# 2104 Q:

And did you also tell OJ., "You made her exactly like you"?

# 2105 A:

I must have told-yeah, I must have told him that.

# 2106 Q:

And that's what you believed. Right?

# 2107 A:

I felt at that time, yeah, exactly.

# 2108 Q:

Have you ever spoken to Sydney Simpson about her-about the evening of June 12?

# 2109 A:

The evening of June 12?

# 2110 Q:

Yes.

# 2111 MR. KRAMER:

Which day of the week was June 12?

# 2112

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2113 Q:

The evening of June 12 when her mother was killed, did you speak to her about what she heard and whether her mom had received any phone calls?

# 2114 A:

No.

# 2115 Q:

Never spoken to her about that?

# 2116 A:

No.

# 2117 Q:

Or do you know if Mr. Simpson has?

# 2118 A:

I don't know.

# 2119 Q:

Did you ever ask him.

# 2120 A:

No.

# 2121 Q:

Did you ever ask him, "Have you spoken to Sydney and what did she hear?"

# 2122 A:

No.

# 2123 Q:

Did you ever speak to Justin about that?

# 2124 A:

No.

# 2125 Q:

Do you know whether Mr. Simpson has?

# 2126 A:

I don't know.

# 2127 Q:

Have you ever asked him?

# 2128 A:

No.

# 2129 Q:

Did you know that there was a knife found on Nicole's counter that evening?

# 2130 A:

I don't know.

# 2131 MR. BAKER:

Irrelevant.

# 2132

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2133 Q:

Excuse me.

# 2134 A:

I don't know.

# 2135 Q:

Did you ever ask Mr. Simpson about that knife?

# 2136 A:

I don't know.

# 2137 Q:

Did you ever see Mr. Simpson's video?

# 2138 A:

What video?

# 2139 Q:

You know, the video that he has been selling for money to try to convince people that he's innocent.

# 2140 A:

No.

# 2141 MR. BAKER:

Oh, that was a beautiful question.

# 2142 MS. FISCHMAN:

No.

# 2143

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2144 Q:

You've never seen that video?

# 2145 A:

No.

# 2146 Q:

Now, yesterday you were explaining to us why OJ. Simpson was innocent: Because things didn't match. You know, there's no-

# 2147 A:

Yeah.

# 2148 Q:

-blood on the carpet-

# 2149 A:

Yeah.

# 2150 Q:

-and things like this. Do you remember that?

# 2151 A:

Yes.

# 2152 Q:

What about the fact that there was OJ. Simpson's blood found at Nicole's condo?

# 2153 MR. BAKER:

What's the question?

# 2154

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2155 Q:

Do you have an explanation for that?

# 2156 A:

No.

# 2157 Q:

Do you know of any reason why that blood was found there?

# 2158 A:

Well, I felt there was a vial missing. Wasn't there? See, I didn't follow because I was not allowed to watch the whole thing.

# 2159 Q:

Well, you said yesterday that OJ. Simpson's innocent because the evidence is just not there.

# 2160 A:

The evidence, it was enormous.

# 2161 Q:

What evidence was enormous?

# 2162 A:

It was just-it was just too much. It was like-feel like somebody just framed him, somebody just-

# 2163 Q:

Oh, you mean the evidence of his guilt was enormous.

# 2164 A:

Right. Like all this evidences were out there. It was just-

# 2165 Q:

So you mean the evidence of his guilt was so enormous that in your mind it created a suspicion that he was being framed. Is that what you're saying?

# 2166 A:

Yes.

# 2167 Q:

I see. And the enormous evidence of guilt would include such things as his blood found at the crime scene. Right?

# 2168 MR. BAKER:

This is irrelevant-

# 2169 MS. FISCHMAN:

The evidence of guilt?

# 2170 MR. BAKER:

-and you are doing this-

# 2171

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2172 Q:

Excuse me?

# 2173 MR. BAKER:

-totally for television shows, Mr. Petrocelli, and you know it.

# 2174 MR. BREWER:

Leave out-

# 2175 MR. KELLY:

What show?

# 2176 MR. BAKER:

Whatever he's going to appear on next.

# 2177 MR. PETROCELLI:

That's uncalled for.

# 2178 MR. KRAMER:

Do you have the question in mind?

# 2179 MR. PETROCELLI:

I am probing her bias, and she thinks Mr. Simpson's innocent in the face of, as she has just indicated, "enormous" evidence of his guilt

# 2180 Q:

And I would like to know why you have what appears to me-

# 2181 A:

You know what-

# 2182 Q:

-to be a totally irrational viewpoint.

# 2183 MR. BAKER:

Oh, is that right? Mr. Petrocelli, you are not the judge or the jury, although you'd like to be 13 people at the same time.

# 2184 MR. KRAMER:

Let the lawyers have their barbed exchange-

# 2185 MS. FISCHMAN:

Okay

# 2186 MR. KRAMER:

-and then I want to make sure you have the question in mind. I want you to think about it, and then everybody in this room is entitled to your answer.

# 2187 MS. FISCHMAN:

Okay.

# 2188

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2189 Q:

Well, let me ask you this question: What evidence do you have that Mr. Simpson was framed?

# 2190 MR. BAKER:

She currently maintains.

# 2191 MS. FISCHMAN:

The gloves, the socks; the-you know, the three blood stains on the driveway, why was it on Ashford side as opposed to Rockingham side.

# 2192

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2193 Q:

Why was what on Ashford?

# 2194 A:

The bloodstain was on Ashford side, not on Rockingham side. Why were no blood stains on the carpet going to his bedroom if he came with bloody socks, so...

# 2195 Q:

Okay. Have you discussed these ideas with Mr. Simpson?

# 2196 A:

No.

# 2197 Q:

At no time?

# 2198 A:

I talked to him about it, yeah. I have doubts about-these are things that entered my mind.

# 2199 Q:

And have you ever discussed them with Mr. Simpson, these doubts that you have with the evidence?

# 2200 A:

We don't talk about those things, though.

# 2201 Q:

Not once have you ever spoken to him about this?

# 2202 A:

No.

# 2203 Q:

Not once?

# 2204 A:

No.

# 2205 Q:

Okay. Never asked him about the glove and how it got there and the socks and how it got there-

# 2206 (Shakes head.)

# 2207 Q:

-and never asked him about the blood?

# 2208 A:

No.

# 2209 MR. BAKER:

Asked and answered and harassing

# 2210

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2211 Q:

Never asked him, "Was that your blood at Bundy? Did you bleed there that night?"

# 2212 A:

No.

# 2213 Q:

Did you ever ask him that?

# 2214 A:

No.

# 2215 Q:

You're not really interested in finding out if he's responsible for these deaths. Correct?

# 2216 MR. BAKER:

Argumentative.

# 2217 MS. FISCHMAN:

Not what?

# 2218

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2219 Q:

You are not really interested in knowing the truth, are you?

# 2220 MR. BAKER:

What?

# 2221 MS. FISCHMAN:

Am I not interested?

# 2222

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2223 Q:

Yes. You're not really interested in finding out the truth. You just want to believe that he's innocent. Correct?

# 2224 MR. KRAMER:

Stop, think about the question and answer the question.

# 2225 MR. BAKER:

Could you have it read back so that she can hear that question?

# 2226 MR. PETROCELLI:

Yeah.

# 2227 Q:

You are looking at me as though you don't understand my questions. Are they unclear?

# 2228 A:

Well, you asked me a lot of questions, so you're trying to...

# 2229 Q:

Let me tell you why I asked the question, and I would like to get an answer.

# 2230 A:

Yeah.

# 2231 Q:

You tell me that the evidence of his guilt is "enormous." You tell me that it's so enormous that it leads you to suspect that he's being framed, and then you pointed out some of the examples of the evidence that you think was put there to frame him-

# 2232 A:

Yes.

# 2233 Q:

-and yet you tell me you never once have asked him about any of this evidence? Is that your testimony?

# 2234 A:

Yes, I have not asked him, yes.

# 2235 Q:

Okay. And I asked you, are you really interested in knowing the truth about whether Mr. Simpson killed your very best friend, Nicole?

# 2236 A:

I would like to know who really killed Nicole. Of course I do.

# 2237 Q:

But you don't think it's OJ. Simpson.

# 2238 A:

Well, he was-to me there were a lot of-to me there was a lot of people that-I mean, others who could have done it. That's how I saw this whole thing.

# 2239 Q:

Could have?

# 2240 A:

Yes.

# 2241 Q:

And who are those others?

# 2242 A:

I don't know, but Nicole at that time for

the last six weeks led a very dangerous life.

# 2243 Q:

Okay. And who are the other suspects?

# 2244 A:

I don't know.

# 2245 Q:

Well, name them. You said there were others. Name them. Give me their names.

# 2246 MR. BAKER:

Don't speculate.

# 2247 MS. FISCHMAN:

I can't name them. BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2248 Q:

Why not?

# 2249 A:

They were doing drugs. They were doing cocaine. I mean, not drugs, but Faye was doing cocaine. And they were going out a lot. They were bar-hopping, they were going to different clubs, so at that time I didn't know what they were doing.

# 2250 Q:

So you think one of-somebody that Nicole met during this time frame murdered her?

# 2251 A:

I don't know. I mean-you know.

# 2252 Q:

But you never asked Mr. Simpson

# 2253 MR. BAKER:

Asked and answered eight times.

# 2254

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2255 Q:

-why his blood is found at the crime scene.

# 2256 MR. BAKER:

Asked and answered.

# 2257 MS. FISCHMAN:

I have not asked anything.

# 2258

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2259 Q:

You never asked him why Nicole's blood is found in his car. Never asked him that either?

# 2260 MR. BAKER:

Asked and answered.

# 2261 (Shakes head.)

# 2262

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2263 Q:

Excuse me?

# 2264 A:

No, I didn't ask.

# 2265 Q:

Did you ever a him why Ron Goldman's blood is found in OJ.'s car? Did you ever ask him that question?

# 2266 A:

Was it? I don't know.

# 2267 Q:

You didn't know that?

# 2268 A:

No. I never followed the case, so I'm sorry.

# 2269 MR. BAKER:

Don't apologize to him.

# 2270

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2271 Q:

Do you-did Mr. Simpson or anyone else ever give you any information to the effect that this glove was planted, this bloody glove? Anyone ever tell you anything about that?

# 2272 A:

No.

# 2273 Q:

Or that the sock was planted?

# 2274 A:

No.

# 2275 Q:

Do you have any information at all that any of these items of evidence were planted or manufactured?

# 2276 A:

Any evidence?

# 2277 Q:

Yeah.

# 2278 MR. KRAMER:

You're talking about other than what she might-

# 2279 MR. PETROCELLI:

Other than her own speculation and surmise.

# 2280 MS. FISCHMAN:

This is my own speculation.

# 2281

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2282 Q:

No one ever told you-

# 2283 A:

-that somebody confirmed it? No.

# 2284 Q:

Or given you any information on it.

# 2285 A:

No, no one.

# 2286 Q:

Okay. Now, after Nicole's death did you have any conversations with Kato Kaelin?

# 2287 A:

Yes.

# 2288 Q:

And what was the purpose of those conversations?

# 2289 A:

At that time we were trying to commiserate, so at the time I didn't have a friend and-that I could trust, and I thought that we could trust each other, and just trying to figure out what really happened. That's all.

# 2290 Q:

Did you tell Kato Kaelin that you believed that OJ. killed Nicole?

# 2291 A:

I didn't say that.

# 2292 Q:

You deny saying that?

# 2293 A:

Yes.

# 2294 MR. BAKER:

Asked and answered.

# 2295

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2296 Q:

Excuse me?

# 2297 A:

Yes.

# 2298 Q:

So if Mr. Kaelin testified that you said that, he would not be telling the truth?

# 2299 A:

Yes.

# 2300 Q:

Okay. Did you meet with Mr. Kaelin's attorney, Michael Plotkin?

# 2301 A:

Yes.

# 2302 Q:

And what was the reason for that?

# 2303 A:

At the time Kato said if I needed a lawyer, that he would help me, and that's pretty much why I met Michael Plotkin. Oh, no. It's because of the National Enquirer. That's true, yeah.

# 2304 Q:

Did you ask him for some legal advice?

# 2305 A:

Exactly, right.

# 2306 Q:

But you never hired him. Right?

# 2307 A:

No.

# 2308 Q:

Okay. You told Kato Kaelin that Marcus-that Nicole was seeing Marcus Allen again in 1994. Correct?

# 2309 A:

1994?

# 2310 (Nods head.)

# 2311 MR. BAKER:

He is asking if you told Kaelin that.

# 2312

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2313 Q:

You told that to Kato.

# 2314 A:

I must have, yeah.

# 2315 Q:

And during these conversations with Kato Kaelin, you also told him that Nicole had ended her relationship with Mr. Simpson sometime in May of 1994, having reached that decision while in Cabo San Lucas. Correct?

# 2316 A:

What Nicole-yeah, I told him Nicole was thinking about, yeah.

# 2317 Q:

That's what you told Kato Kaelin. Correct?

# 2318 MR. KRAMER:

Do you understand the distinction? He is now asking- he is asking you to confirm-

# 2319 MS. FISCHMAN:

Kato's?

# 2320 MR. KRAMER:

-whether or not you made these statements to Kato.

# 2321 MS. FISCHMAN:

I must have. I don't know. See, these were-you know, we were just conversing, so I don't know.

# 2322

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2323 Q:

Well, that's what I'm asking.

# 2324 A:

Okay.

# 2325 Q:

You made that statement to Kato Kaelin. Correct?

# 2326 A:

Must have, yes.

# 2327 Q:

Okay.

# 2328 MR. KRAMER:

Why do you say you "must have"?

# 2329 MR. PETROCELLI:

Please don't. You can ask her questions when it's your turn. Okay?

# 2330 MR. KRAMER:

I really don't want to. That's fine.

# 2331 MR. PETROCELLI:

Okay. Thank you.

# 2332 Q:

You told Kato Kaelin that Nicole and Ron Goldman had seen each other a couple times. Correct?

# 2333 A:

I'm sorry. Could you repeat that, please?

# 2334 Q:

You told Kato Kaelin that Nicole and Ron Goldman had seen each other several times. Correct?

# 2335 A:

Several times?

# 2336 Q:

Some times. Words to that effect. Is that right?

# 2337 A:

What do you mean, "Sometimes?" How many times? I don't

# 2338 Q:

Did you tell that to Kato Kaelin?

# 2339 A:

I don't remember.

# 2340 Q:

Well, can you please think?

# 2341 MR. BAKER:

That's argumentative.

# 2342

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2343 Q:

Did you tell Kato Kaelin that Nicole and Ron had seen each other?

# 2344 A:

Yes.

# 2345 Q:

Okay. And that Ron Goldman had driven Nicole's car?

# 2346 A:

Yes.

# 2347 Q:

And that the two were not dating?

# 2348 A:

Yes.

# 2349 Q:

Okay. And you told Kato Kaelin that Nicole had-that you had learned that Nicole had planned to have Goldman come over that evening that she was murdered.

# 2350 A:

Did I tell-

# 2351 Q:

You told Kato Kaelin that yon had learned that Nicole was planning to have Goldman come over that evening.

# 2352 A:

Yes.

# 2353 Q:

You told Kato Kaelin that Nicole returned an expensive bracelet to OJ. Simpson.

# 2354 A:

Yes.

# 2355 Q:

And you told Kato Kaelin that Nicole told

OJ. that he could not buy her with the bracelet.

# 2356 A:

Yes.

# 2357 Q:

You told Kato Kaelin that OJ. Simpson planned the IRS letter to get Nicole into trouble financially and to cause her to have no money.

# 2358 A:

I must have, yes, right.

# 2359 Q:

And you learned that from Nicole. Correct?

# 2360 A:

Yes.

# 2361 Q:

You had run into Kato Kaelin once or twice at a market in Brentwood and while jogging. Correct?

# 2362 A:

Yes.

# 2363 Q:

And you also talked one day at a coffee shop in Beverly Hills called Michel Richard?

# 2364 A:

Michel Richard? Yes. Yes.

# 2365 Q:

You told-Withdrawn. At the wake did you pound on Mr. Simpson's chest at all?

# 2366 A:

Yes.

# 2367 Q:

And did you say, "Why, why, why, why did you do it?"

# 2368 A:

No, because that's wrong.

# 2369 Q:

You say it's "wrong." Right?

# 2370 A:

Well-

# 2371 MR. BAKER:

What?

# 2372 MS. FISCHMAN:

-see, they put words in my mouth.

# 2373

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2374 Q:

Who is "they"?

# 2375 A:

This one, the media, they already -that thing has been-I-what I said-

# 2376 MR. BAKER:

You're cutting her off very badly this time.

# 2377

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2378 Q:

You may finish.

# 2379 A:

Okay. What I said, and I would like to really-I was crying, okay. I went to him. He was sitting with his mother. I was crying, pounding, pounding his chest, and I was crying. I said, "What happened? What happened here? Who did this to my friend? And all that she wanted to do was take care of Sydney and Justin."

And OJ. said, "I just loved her so much. I just loved her so much," and then that was it. That was the end of the conversation.

# 2380 Q:

"Loved her too much." Right?

# 2381 A:

No; I said, "I loved her so much. I loved her so much."

# 2382 MR. BAKER:

Nice try.

# 2383 MS. FISCHMAN:

See, you asked me also about that yesterday, the " too much. n So as I said, you know, if "too" and "so" mean the same, so-so be it, but I said, "I loved her so much. I loved her so much."

# 2384

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2385 Q:

Did Nicole ever tell you that- Excuse me.

Did OJ. Simpson ever tell you that he was thinking about surprising Nicole for her birthday in May of 1994 by renting a yacht and taking Nicole and her friends out on the yacht?

# 2386 A:

If OJ. told me?

# 2387 Q:

Yes.

# 2388 A:

No.

# 2389 Q:

Did Nicole tell you that?

# 2390 A:

Yes.

# 2391 Q:

And did Nicole tell you that she did not want to go to Florida on a yacht with Mr. Simpson?

# 2392 A:

No. She said that-she was actually thinking about that. She wanted to, but she wasn't sure-at the time

she wasn't sure if she really wanted to do it or not; that's all.

# 2393 Q:

So Nicole told you that she was not sure.

# 2394 A:

Yes.

# 2395 Q:

Okay.

# 2396 A:

It was in a planning stage, pretty much.

# 2397 MR. PETROCELLI:

I think that's all I have for now, but I reserve my right to ask any further questions when the other counsel have concluded their questioning.

# 2398 MR. BAKER:

Are you going to have any questions, Mike?

# 2399 MR. BREWER:

Yeah.

# 2400 MR. BAKER:

How long?

# 2401 MR. BREWER:

Half hour.

# 2402 MR. BAKER:

All right. Do you want to go, and then I'll go after you?

# 2403 MR. BREWER:

Mr. Kelly asked to go second this time.

# 2404 MR. BAKER:

Okay, I'll go next. Let's take a quick break.

# 2405 MR. PETROCELLI:

Okay.

THEVIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off the record now, and the time is approximately 2:30.

# 2406 (Recess.)

# 2407 MR. PETROCELLI:

Couple more questions.

# 2408 Q:

Did Nicole ever tell you about keeping a diary?

# 2409 A:

No.

# 2410 Q:

Okay. Do you know whether she was making any notes of her conversations with OJ. Simpson around the time that she died?

# 2411 A:

No.

# 2412 Q:

Okay. Did she tell you about a conversation that she had with Mr. Simpson on June 3 or June 2 when they had a vicious argument, and he-and she hung up on him?

# 2413 A:

No.

# 2414 Q:

Okay. Do you recognize the hand- writing in this document which has been previously marked as en exhibit in this case? It's Exhibit 86.

Do you recognize that as Nicole's handwriting?

# 2415 A:

Uh-huh.

# 2416 Q:

Do you see that?

# 2417 A:

Uh-huh.

# 2418 Q:

And that's Nicole's handwriting?

# 2419 A:

Yes.

# 2420 Q:

And I am showing you the last two pages of Exhibit 86, including and in particular the entry on June 3.

# 2421 A:

Yes.

# 2422 Q:

Does that ring a bell?

# 2423 A:

Yes. Yes.

# 2424 Q:

Okay. This is where Nicole is describing that OJ. had come over to pick up the kids, came too late, and they slept over at the house, and then she's writing down the things that OJ. had said to her at that time. Do you see that?

# 2425 A:

Yes.

# 2426 Q:

Now, did she tell you about that conversation?

# 2427 A:

Yes, she told me about that conversation.

# 2428 Q:

Okay. And-

# 2429 A:

She didn't tell me the whole thing, but she told me that she-

# 2430 Q:

The gist of it.

# 2431 A:

Yeah, right.

# 2432 Q:

Okay. Not each and every word that she wrote down here-

# 2433 A:

Yes.

# 2434 Q:

-but she told you the gist of that conversation that-

# 2435 A:

That she spoke to OJ., yes.

# 2436 Q:

The one conversation I'm referring to is the one, for the record, indicated on June 3-under her notes for June 3 in the Exhibit 86. Do you see that?

# 2437 A:

Yes.

# 2438 Q:

Okay. And did you speak to OJ. Simpson about that conversation?

# 2439 A:

No.

# 2440 Q:

And do you know why OJ. Simpson was so hostile towards Nicole?

# 2441 MR. BAKER:

Speculation.

# 2442 MS. FISCHMAN:

At that time?

# 2443

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2444 Q:

Yes.

# 2445 A:

I thought it was because of the IRS letter.

# 2446 Q:

Why was OJ. Simpson doing this to Nicole?

# 2447 MR. BAKER:

Speculation.

# 2448 MS. FISCHMAN:

I don't know.

# 2449

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2450 Q:

What did Nicole tell you? In other words, what-

# 2451 A:

They were fighting over-about their friends, you know. Nicole was upset that Faye was invited to the sports spectacular, and I remember Nicole calling me and said, you know, "I can't believe OJ.'s buying my friends," and that's pretty much why they were both fighting.

# 2452 Q:

Do you know why OJ. Simpson started to threaten Nicole with IRS action?

# 2453 A:

I don't know.

# 2454 Q:

Did she tell you why he was doing this?

# 2455 A:

No.

# 2456 Q:

He had never done this before to your knowledge. Correct?

# 2457 A:

What, the IRS?

# 2458 Q:

Threatened her with IRS action.

# 2459 A:

That was the first time, yes.

# 2460 Q:

And do you have any information, based on all of your conversations with Nicole, why he was doing this?

# 2461 A:

Because...

# 2462 MR. BAKER:

This would be speculation also.

# 2463 MS. FISCHMAN:

See, I-see, what I think doesn't-you know, it's not what OJ. or Nicole said, I mean, but at that time I thought they were fighting over Faye.

# 2464

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 2465 Q:

Why would-what does that have to do with OJ. threatening IRS action?

# 2466 A:

Because Nicole called OJ., screaming at him, saying, you know, "Why are you taking all my friends away from me? You think you can take my friends again."

And OJ. said, you know, "I wasn't- "I wasn't"-OJ. was denying that. He says, you know, "It was Faye who called me, who wanted to be invited to the sports spectacular," and then- and that's pretty much the conversation.

# 2467 Q:

So you don't know why OJ. was threatening IRS action. Correct?

# 2468 A:

No, I don't.

# 2469 Q:

Now, in these notes Nicole Simpson is writing about her children, and

# 2470 A:

Right.

# 2471 Q:

-do you have any understanding as to why she was making notes about her children during this time, meaning near the very end of her life?

# 2472 A:

I don't know.

# 2473 Q:

Did she-

# 2474 A:

I didn't even know she was writing a diary.

# 2475 Q:

Did she express any concern to you about her children in the last few weeks of her life?

# 2476 A:

No.

# 2477 Q:

About who would care for her children-

# 2478 A:

No.

# 2479 Q:

-if something should happen to her?

# 2480 A:

Well, we talked about that during our run. You know, we kid around. I said, "If anything should happen to us, you know, we'll take care of each other's kids."

# 2481 Q:

Oh, that was-you were kidding around, you mean?

# 2482 A:

Well, you know, when we go and we have fights with our husband and we said, "Oh, you know, if anything should happen to us, you know, and so...

# 2483 Q:

You took that seriously. Correct?

# 2484 A:

I didn't take it serious, but we talked about it all the time.

# 2485 Q:

Well, you told me yesterday that that's the pact of Nicole that you're now honoring.

# 2486 A:

I am, yeah, it's a pact that we honored. We talked about it all the time, yes.

# 2487 Q:

So it's something you took seriously enough to honor now that she has been killed.

# 2488 A:

Yes. Yes.

# 2489 Q:

So it wasn't a big joke.

# 2490 A:

No, it wasn't a big joke.

# 2491 Q:

Okay. Getting back to my question, do you know why she was concerned about her children near the very end?

# 2492 A:

She was always concerned about her kids.

# 2493 Q:

Why she was concerned about her children when it came to OJ. Simpson?

# 2494 A:

I don't think she was concerned with-

# 2495 Q:

Do you know why she was making notes about OJ. Simpson's activities concerning the children?

# 2496 A:

I didn't know that. I didn't know that she was making notes.

# 2497 Q:

Was she complaining to you near the end that OJ. wasn't available for the children?

# 2498 A:

No, she was not complaining.

# 2499 Q:

That he wasn't picking them up on time or showing up for them or was away quite-too much?

# 2500 A:

No.

# 2501 Q:

No?

# 2502 A:

Well, you know, OJ. was always away, you know, back and forth, so I don't know. I don't remember.

# 2503 Q:

On May 22 she says, "we officially split up," and then later on at the end of that entry she says, "He's been gone the last 4 weekends." Do you recall her telling you that?

# 2504 A:

All I know is at the time when she talked to me about their split-up, I know she said to me,

"We're gonna start talking about every other weekend." You know, "When kids" "when he's around, he should be with the kids. I don't want him to get away with this, he can just take time off and not be with the kids." Yeah, I remember that.

# 2505 Q:

Okay. And on May 28 she says that OJ. went away for Saturday and Sunday but took the kids Friday and Monday. This is Memorial Day weekend. Do you recall that?

# 2506 A:

I don't remember.

# 2507 Q:

Excuse me?

# 2508 A:

I don't remember that.

# 2509 Q:

She says, "Blowup with Cora in car." Do you see that? "Blow up with Cora in car."

# 2510 A:

"Blow up with Cora in car."

# 2511 Q:

Right above the entry for May 28, 1994. What's that about?

# 2512 A:

"Blow up with Cora in car." Oh, I remember that. We were- when I was gonna pick up the kids -I went to pick up the kids in the morning, because I asked Nicole- I think that was when Nicole had pneumonia or something like that. I don't remember. But I went to pick up their kids to go to school, to [Name Deleted], and so Nicole called me in my car and said that OJ. wants to take the kids to school.

"But"-I said, "But that's okay. I already have them in the car.."

And so as I was going through Bundy by the corner of Gretna Green, OJ. was behind me, and he toot the horn and he said, "Let me take the kids to school."

And so I said, "Well, I have the kids with me."

He says, "No. I'll take the kids to school."

I said, "Okay, fine." So the kids got out and they went with their dad.

# 2513 Q:

How-

# 2514 A:

And I was on the phone with Nicole. I said, you know, "Why is he taking the kids to school?" You know, "I have them."

So that's when she said, you know, "He's mad. He's mad. We got into a fight."

# 2515 Q:

So that must be the fight. So that's the blowup with Cora.

# 2516 Q:

Let me see if I understand this. You had Nicole's children in the car?

# 2517 A:

Yes.

# 2518 Q:

Sydney and Justin?

# 2519 A:

Yes. That was in the morning.

# 2520 Q:

You had picked them up where?

# 2521 A:

From Bundy to take them to [Name Deleted] to school.

# 2522 Q:

So you are driving en route from Bundy to [Name Deleted]. Right.,

# 2523 A:

From Gretna Green to San Vicente, yeah.

# 2524 Q:

How long is that ride to the school?

# 2525 A:

How long is the ride? I would say three minutes.

# 2526 Q:

And then while you're driving away from Nicole's house, then you get a call from Nicole on your car phone?

# 2527 A:

Right.

# 2528 Q:

And she tells you that OJ. wants to take the kids to school?

# 2529 A:

No. "OJ. called me and looking for the kids, and he wants to take the kids to school."

# 2530 Q:

Okay.

# 2531 A:

And then while I was crossing the intersection, I said, "Oh, OJ.'s here. He's in front"- "he's behind me now."

# 2532 Q:

And he beeped the horn at you?

# 2533 A:

Beeped the horn.

# 2534 Q:

What car did he have?

# 2535 A:

He had the Bentley, and then pull on the side and he said, you know, all I want to take the kids."

I said, "Well, you know, take the kids."

# 2536 Q:

At that time I said, "What's going on here? Is he mad or what?"

She says, "Let him take them. So he took the kids to school.

# 2537 Q:

Which kids?

# 2538 A:

Sydney and Justin.

# 2539 Q:

And did he take your kids?

# 2540 A:

Took-

# 2541 Q:

Excuse me?

# 2542 A:

And then I took my kids to [Name Deleted].

# 2543 Q:

So you and he both then drove to the school together-

# 2544 A:

Right.

# 2545 Q:

-in the same-He didn't take your children.

# 2546 A:

No, he didn't take my kids.

# 2547 Q:

Okay. And did he seem upset to you?

# 2548 A:

Yes. Yes.

# 2549 Q:

Did he say anything to you?

# 2550 A:

No. He just say, "I want my kids."

# 2551 Q:

Now-

# 2552 A:

He was mad. He was angry-

# 2553 Q:

Yes, he was mad and angry.

# 2554 A:

-because we were just having, you know...

# 2555 Q:

Where did the exchange of the kids occur?

# 2556 A:

On Gretna Green-I mean, San Vicente and Gretna Green.

# 2557 Q:

And how long did it take from that point to get to the school?

# 2558 A:

Oh, my God. It's about two miles, So one, two-two and a half miles, so I would say, what, two minutes?

# 2559 Q:

Did you-later on when you dropped the children off, did you call Nicole and say, "What's going on here? What happened? What's this all about?"

# 2560 A:

Well, yeah, we spoke on the phone. I said, "What's going on?"

# 2561 Q:

And what did she tell you?

# 2562 A:

She said that OJ.'s mad at me. I said, "Why?" At that time I think OJ. thought that I was the bad influence to Nicole's life because of my affair with [Name Deleted].

# 2563 Q:

That's what Nicole told you?

# 2564 A:

Well, Nicole told me, "OJ.'s mad at you.

# 2565 Q:

Oh, "OJ.'s mad at you."

# 2566 A:

Me.

# 2567 Q:

Oh, so he didn't want you taking his kids to school.

# 2568 A:

Yeah, because he thought I was a bad influence to Nicole's life, whatever Nicole was going through.

# 2569 Q:

I see. And did you talk to OJ. Simpson about that at all?

# 2570 A:

Later on, yeah.

# 2571 Q:

When?

# 2572 A:

I must have told him when-you know what? We really didn't talk about that.

# 2573 Q:

You said, "Later on, yeah." When?

# 2574 A:

I don't remember. I mean, I think So, yeah.

# 2575 Q:

Before he was arrested? Before Nicole's death or after?

# 2576 A:

Oh, after, after Nicole's death.

# 2577 Q:

When he got out of jail, or on the phone while he was in jail?

# 2578 A:

I think over the phone when he was in- when the book came out, when Faye Resnick-yeah, right, when Faye Resnick's book came out.

# 2579 Q:

And what did he tell you about his being mad at you?

# 2580 A:

Because he thought I was the bad -you know, I was the bad influence. "Negative vibes bring negative vibes," is what he said.

# 2581 Q:

And what did you tell him? That it wasn't you, that it was Faye?

# 2582 A:

I said, you know, "Faye and Nicole were going out a lot. It wasn't me."

# 2583 Q:

What was the reaction of the children to being taken out of your car and being put in OJ.'s car?

# 2584 A:

What was their reaction? It was nothing.

# 2585 Q:

Nothing?

# 2586 A:

Yeah, they were just-they left my car and they drove into their daddy's car.

# 2587 Q:

Did your children go-did you or your children go with Nicole's children to see THE FLINTSTONES movie during the Memorial Day weekend?

# 2588 A:

My God, I don't remember.

# 2589 Q:

Or to an arcade or to play miniature golf?

# 2590 A:

I don't remember.

# 2591 Q:

Now, do you remember any other incidents in the last couple of weeks of Nicole's life concerning arguments with OJ. about the children?

# 2592 A:

I don't remember.

# 2593 Q:

You don't remember?

# 2594 A:

About the children?

# 2595 Q:

Yes.

# 2596 A:

No. That's pretty much the weekend. They were-you know, she wanted the weekend schedule. That's pretty much it.

# 2597 Q:

Nicole writes here, "I told OJ. we're going back to every other weekend."

# 2598 A:

Yeah, that's right.

# 2599 Q:

I need the rest and OJ.'s gone so much-he needs the alone time with them." Is that what Nicole told you?

# 2600 A:

Yeah, she mentioned to me, yes, that she's gonna work on the week- ends with him.

# 2601 MR. PETROCELLI:

Okay.

# 2602

EXAMINATION

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (5)

Cora Fischman

He suspected that she was having an affair with [Name Deleted], and he asked me, he says, 'Are they having an affair?' I said, 'No. They're just friends.' And he says, 'Well, someone's eating the caviar and champagne every time I leave.'

OJ's suspicion-laced remark about Alessandro reveals his jealousy and surveillance of Nicole's life even after the separation.

Cora Fischman

Nicole told me, 'Don't ever, whatever happens, don't ever tell OJ. that I had an affair before I left Rockingham,' and I—I made a promise to her.

Establishes that Cora actively concealed Nicole's affair from OJ at Nicole's explicit request, and that she kept that secret even when OJ directly asked her.

Cora Fischman

She apparently wanted to know if I was there, and I told [Name Deleted], 'Tell her I'm not here, because I don't want to go home.' And so Nicole apparently said, 'Tell her to go home because her kids are looking for her and Ron is angry. Ron's been calling.'

Describes the 2 a.m. phone call on June 12 — the last night of Nicole's life — and the ordinary domestic concerns Nicole was expressing just hours before the murders.

Cora Fischman

He says, you know, 'I love that woman.' You know, 'We had such a great marriage. What happened?'

OJ's own words, relayed through Cora, expressing continued emotional attachment to Nicole during their separation — part of Petrocelli's effort to establish obsessive control.

Cora Fischman

She told me to loosen up. She says, you know, 'Cora, you have such a bad marriage. Why don't you just relax, and probably this will help your marriage in the long run.'

Nicole's advice to Cora to pursue an extramarital affair — which later puts Cora at [Name Deleted]'s home on the night of June 11-12, directly connecting to the last known phone call Nicole made.

Evidence (4)

Plaintiffs' 160

Sealed piece of paper containing the name, address, home phone, and employer (UCLA) of Cora's boyfriend [Name Deleted], withheld from the transcript at Kramer's request

marked for identification, retained by Petrocelli, omitted from transcript

Informal

Photograph of OJ Simpson that Cora previously gave to Robert Shapiro and Marcia Clark

discussed; Cora could not produce it as it had been handed over to criminal case parties

Informal

Brooke Skulski book notes referenced in prior subpoena

Cora searched for them but could not locate them

Informal

Birthday party photograph of Nicole and Cora, 1993

discussed as one of very few photographs Cora possesses of Nicole

Notable Exchanges (5)

Daniel Petrocelli•Robert Baker•Philip Kramer

Dispute over whether to put [Name Deleted]'s full name and address on the record, with Baker citing press harassment concerns (parallel to how Kim Goldman's friends' information was handled), Kramer citing privacy interests, and Petrocelli insisting on the information for subpoena purposes. Resolved by having Cora write it on a sealed exhibit.

strategic

Daniel Petrocelli•Robert Baker

Baker accuses Petrocelli of 'invading this woman's privacy rights in an attempt to harass her' when Petrocelli presses on how Nicole instigated Cora's affair; Petrocelli responds dryly: 'You are getting very good, Mr. Baker.' Baker: 'Thank you.'

heated with dark humor

Daniel Petrocelli•Cora Fischman

Petrocelli confronts Cora with the fact that she failed to mention Nicole's 2 a.m. phone call to [Name Deleted] the day before. Cora deflects by saying Petrocelli hadn't specifically asked. Petrocelli walks through the full sequence — Nicole calling, Cora instructing [Name Deleted] to lie about her whereabouts, and then the one-hour follow-up call the next morning.

revealing

Daniel Petrocelli•Cora Fischman

Petrocelli presses Cora repeatedly on whether Nicole ever discussed physical abuse or the 1989 New Year's Eve beating as a reason for leaving the marriage. Cora denies Nicole ever raised the physical abuse with her, instead attributing the split to womanizing and OJ's absence. Petrocelli's repeated leading attempts are objected to by Baker.

strategic

Cora Fischman•Philip Kramer

After Petrocelli announces he will go to the judge if Cora refuses to answer how Nicole instigated the affair, Kramer pulls Cora aside for an off-record consultation. She then answers.

procedural

Light Moments (3)

Daniel Petrocelli

After Petrocelli notes Cora held a press conference between deposition sessions to deny sleeping with OJ Simpson, he moves on with 'Okay' — treating it as an entirely normal piece of preparation.

Robert Baker

Baker corrects Petrocelli when he says 'Keith' but means '[Name Deleted]': 'MR. BAKER: [Name Deleted].' — Baker stepping in to clean up a naming error.

Robert Baker

When Petrocelli responds sarcastically to Baker's privacy objection — 'You are getting very good, Mr. Baker' — Baker replies 'Thank you.'

Credibility Attacks (2)

⚔ Cora Fischman

omission / prior incomplete testimony

Petrocelli points out that Cora failed to mention Nicole's 2 a.m. phone call to [Name Deleted] during the prior day's session, despite being asked about her contact with Nicole on June 11-12. Cora's defense — 'You didn't ask me' — is noted but Petrocelli treats it as a significant gap.

⚔ Cora Fischman

bias

Petrocelli flags that Cora's concealment of Nicole's affair from OJ, and her own affair with [Name Deleted] (which Nicole was aware of and encouraged), establishes a web of loyalties and secrets that may color her testimony. Petrocelli explicitly names 'bias' when Cora asks why it matters.

Witness Demeanor

Frequently gives hedged, incomplete answers ('pretty much,' 'I don't know,' 'to my knowledge')

Occasionally pushes back on the framing of questions ('No, that's not why')

Appears confused tracking the chronological sequence of Nicole's relationships, saying 'I'm getting confused now'

Willing to volunteer information when she feels the context is being misrepresented (cuts off Petrocelli to correct his characterization of Nicole's motivation)

Consulted privately with her attorney (Philip Kramer) before answering the sensitive question about how Nicole instigated the affair

Objections

28 objections (0 sustained, 0 overruled)

Proceeding 9008 • 2602 utterances • Plaintiff witness

Deposition Trial

Department 103