📄 Direct examination of Laura Hart McKinny — Wednesday, September 6, 1995
Address:
C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\SEP\6\DIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-LAURA-HA.DOC
TRIAL
▲ Day 148 of 167

Direct examination of Laura Hart McKinny

Witness: Laura Hart McKinny
Examiner: Johnnie Cochran
Called by: Defense • Date: Wednesday, September 6, 1995 • Utterances: 140
Cochran resumed direct examination of Laura Hart McKinny, establishing that Fuhrman's use of the N-word on the tapes extended from 1985 through 1988, and that McKinny never asked Fuhrman to embellish or fabricate content. Cochran also reinforced McKinny's credibility by showing she cooperated fully with both sides, interviewed approximately fifteen other officers for research context, and that transcripts were completed before any tapes were accidentally overwritten.
1 MR. COCHRAN:

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

THE JURY: Good morning.

DIRECT EXAMINATION (RESUMED) BY MR. COCHRAN

2 MR. COCHRAN:

Good morning, Miss McKinny.

3 MS. MCKINNY:

Good morning, Mr. Cochran.

4 MR. COCHRAN:

When we concluded our day yesterday we had played a tape for the jury and you shared with us and identified for this jury that was Mark Fuhrman's voice. Do you recall that?

5 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes.

6 MR. COCHRAN:

And with regard to the tapes, the twelve hours plus tapes and the transcripts we talked about yesterday, did you turn those tapes and transcripts over to the Prosecution just as you did to the Defense in this case?

7 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes, I did.

8 MR. COCHRAN:

And have you been interviewed and talked with the Prosecution and cooperated with them?

9 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes, certainly.

10 MR. COCHRAN:

And you are out here from North Carolina pursuant to a subpoena; is that correct?

11 MS. MCKINNY:

That's correct.

12 MR. COCHRAN:

You tried to cooperate with both sides?

13 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes.

14 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, with regard to these tapes and transcripts that we have been talking about, after the first interview that you had with Detective Fuhrman in February of 1985, that you described for us, I showed you yesterday a series of questions which you sent to him prior to the second interview; is that correct?

15 MS. MCKINNY:

That's correct.

16 MR. COCHRAN:

That second interview would have been in April of 1985; is that correct?

17 MS. MCKINNY:

Correct.

18 MR. COCHRAN:

Along with the questions that you sent him, did you send him a transcription of the tape of the--of an earlier meeting or any transcription, do you recall?

19 MS. MCKINNY:

I sent him the transcription of our April 2nd, 1985, meeting, our first taped interview.

20 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. You sent that to him and did he ever, as far as you know, make any changes at all on that transcription that you sent him?

21 MS. MCKINNY:

No.

22 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, later in 1985 did you have occasion to prepare a series of transcripts that you had prepared from the various tapes you had conducted and send those to Mr. Fuhrman?

23 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes.

24 MR. COCHRAN:

Will you tell the jury when that was, ma'am.

25 MS. MCKINNY:

That was sometime in mid-June. I don't remember the exact date. But at that time I compiled all of the transcripts of our interviews and put them in a three-ring binder with indexes and dates and similar to the way I was logging the transcripts and keeping them for myself.

26 MR. COCHRAN:

And did you give those to him or mail those to him or what did you do in that connection?

27 MS. MCKINNY:

I gave those to him in the binder.

28 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you ever at any point get any of those--the transcripts that were in the binder back from him with any changes?

29 MS. MCKINNY:

No.

30 MR. COCHRAN:

And so that we are clear about what was inside the binder, it contained some hours of the transcriptions of the tapes you had had with this particular individual; is that right?

31 MS. MCKINNY:

That's right.

32 MR. COCHRAN:

Did he ever give back the bound volume to you?

33 MS. MCKINNY:

No.

34 MR. COCHRAN:

So as far as you know he still has it; is that correct?

35 MR. DARDEN:

Objection, speculation.

36 THE COURT:

Overruled.

37 MR. COCHRAN:

As far as you know he still has it, right?

38 MS. MCKINNY:

As far as I know.

39 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, yesterday we talked about Mr. Fuhrman's role as a technical advisor or a consultant. Was he to be paid if the screenplay was ever sold by you?

40 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes.

41 MR. COCHRAN:

And what was that compensation to be?

42 MS. MCKINNY:

$10,000.

43 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Has that screenplay been sold?

44 MS. MCKINNY:

No.

45 MR. COCHRAN:

And with regard to these tapes or interviews that we call interviews of Mark Fuhrman, you have not tried to sell those tapes yourself, have you?

46 MS. MCKINNY:

They are not for sale, no.

KEY QUOTE
47 MR. COCHRAN:

You are not trying to profit from those tapes, are you?

48 MS. MCKINNY:

No.

49 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, with regard to the references of the so-called "N" word that we talked about, we talked yesterday, and I think the two examples that we were able to play for the jury I think you said occurred maybe in April of 1985; is that correct?

50 MR. DARDEN:

Objection, misstates the testimony.

51 THE COURT:

Overruled.

52 MR. COCHRAN:

The two examples occurred in 1985?

53 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes.

54 MR. COCHRAN:

Do you remember the first one about where he grew up, when was that?

55 MS. MCKINNY:

That was during our--

56 THE COURT:

Haven't we covered this already?

57 MR. COCHRAN:

Perhaps so, your Honor. It is leading to another question, your Honor.

58 THE COURT:

All right.

59 MR. COCHRAN:

When was that?

60 MS. MCKINNY:

That was during our first interview, April 2nd.

61 MR. COCHRAN:

The second one was also in `85?

62 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes.

63 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. The use of this word by this man, however, continued through 1988; isn't that correct?

64 MR. DARDEN:

Objection.

65 THE COURT:

It is leading.

66 MR. DARDEN:

352.

67 MR. COCHRAN:

Thank you, your Honor. Let me restate it. Thank you.

68 MR. COCHRAN:

Were there times after 1985 in the course of these interviews that you had with Mr. Fuhrman that he continued to use this word?

69 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes.

70 MR. DARDEN:

Objection.

71 MR. COCHRAN:

And how long did he continue to go on--

72 MR. DARDEN:

Objection, the court's ruling, 352.

73 THE COURT:

Overruled. Overruled.

74 MR. COCHRAN:

You may answer.

75 MS. MCKINNY:

In the transcripts through 1988.

KEY QUOTE
76 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Thank you. Now, I think you have already explained to us that the last interview was in July of 1984--1994?

77 MS. MCKINNY:

That's correct.

78 MR. COCHRAN:

After this case had occurred; is that correct?

79 MS. MCKINNY:

Correct.

80 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, with regard to yesterday, just briefly we talked about the fact that you had inadvertently taped over the first tape and also maybe no. 9; is that correct?

81 MS. MCKINNY:

Correct.

82 MR. COCHRAN:

The transcripts that we talked about, had the transcripts been made before the tapes were inadvertently taped over?

83 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes.

84 MR. COCHRAN:

So you completed your process of doing the transcripts before you then taped over the actual tapes; is that correct?

85 MS. MCKINNY:

That's correct.

86 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Now, in these interviews that you conducted with Mr. Fuhrman did you ever at any time ask him to embellish or enhance what he was telling you.

87 MR. DARDEN:

Objection, vague.

88 THE COURT:

Overruled.

89 MS. MCKINNY:

No.

90 MR. COCHRAN:

In fact, what did you tell him in that regard, if anything?

91 MR. DARDEN:

Objection, hearsay.

92 THE COURT:

Overruled.

93 MS. MCKINNY:

I told him that I wanted realistic scenarios and responses to what may happen relative to the development of the story and characters.

KEY QUOTE
94 MR. COCHRAN:

In talking to you did he relate his own personal experiences as a police officer?

95 MR. DARDEN:

Objection, speculation.

96 THE COURT:

Sustained.

97 MR. COCHRAN:

In talking to you can you describe what he did with regard to his personal experiences?

98 MR. DARDEN:

Objection.

99 MR. COCHRAN:

As a police officer?

100 MR. DARDEN:

Vague.

101 THE COURT:

Sustained.

102 MR. DARDEN:

Speculation.

103 MR. COCHRAN:

You were talking to this man because he was a police officer; isn't that correct?

104 MS. MCKINNY:

That's correct.

105 MR. COCHRAN:

And why did you want to talk to him?

106 MR. DARDEN:

Objection. This is asked and answered a number of times.

107 THE COURT:

Asked and answered.

108 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. In addition to talking to Mark Fuhrman, did you talk to other police officers in and around this same time?

109 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes, I did, approximately fifteen.

110 MR. COCHRAN:

Fifteen police officers?

111 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes.

112 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you talk to--did you go to the police academy?

113 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes, I went to the Los Angeles Police Academy and talked with physical training people who worked with cadet patrol women there, and I went on ride-alongs and talked with other police officers as well.

KEY QUOTE
114 MR. COCHRAN:

And why did you do these things?

115 MS. MCKINNY:

It was important to balance the--my understanding of the frustrations, as I mentioned before, that the women were feeling, the reasons why they wanted to become officers and some of the obstacles that they faced, the very real obstacles that they faced on the force and with dealing--dealing with some men who might belong to a group Men Against Women who didn't want them to be officers. I needed to have a clear understanding of the realistic kind of obstacles they would face.

116 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Now, you mentioned that these "N" word references were between `85 and `88. Did you have any interviews with this man between `88 and `94 that were taped?

117 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes.

118 MR. COCHRAN:

And how many, if you recall?

119 MS. MCKINNY:

Umm, between four and six.

120 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. There were less than had been before in `85, `86, `87 and `88?

121 MS. MCKINNY:

Again, please.

122 MR. COCHRAN:

The frequency of the interviews, did they become less after about 1988?

123 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes, they did.

124 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Was there a period of time when there were no interviews, a period of time when there were no taped interviews?

125 MS. MCKINNY:

No taped interviews.

126 MR. COCHRAN:

And when was that?

127 MS. MCKINNY:

During the early nineties there were no taped interviews.

128 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, yesterday you had shared with us and with this jury that when Detective Fuhrman used this word, this offensive word, the "N" word, he seemed to speak in ordinary speech or something of that nature. Do you recall that?

129 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes.

130 MR. COCHRAN:

Would you describe for the jury what you meant by that?

131 MR. DARDEN:

Objection, asked and answered yesterday.

132 THE COURT:

Sustained. Sustained. It was asked yesterday.

133 MR. COCHRAN:

To explain it, your Honor?

134 THE COURT:

Yes.

135 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. May I have just a second, your Honor?

136 THE COURT:

Certainly.

137 MR. COCHRAN:

Thank you.

138 (Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)
139 (Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel and the Defendant.)
140 MR. COCHRAN:

Your Honor, nothing further at this point.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (4)

Laura Hart McKinny
In the transcripts through 1988.
Confirms Fuhrman's use of the N-word was not isolated to early interviews but persisted across multiple years of recordings.
Laura Hart McKinny
I told him that I wanted realistic scenarios and responses to what may happen relative to the development of the story and characters.
Preempts any defense claim that McKinny coached or prompted Fuhrman's language — she asked for realism, not provocation.
Laura Hart McKinny
They are not for sale, no.
Cochran directly neutralizes a potential motive attack — McKinny is not profiting from the tapes.
Laura Hart McKinny
I went to the Los Angeles Police Academy and talked with physical training people who worked with cadet patrol women there, and I went on ride-alongs and talked with other police officers as well.
Establishes the depth and legitimacy of her research, countering any suggestion that Fuhrman was her sole or cherry-picked source.

Evidence (3)

Informal
Three-ring binder of compiled transcripts from all interviews, given to Fuhrman in mid-June 1985 with indexes and dates
discussed — Fuhrman never returned it or made corrections
Informal
Transcription of April 2, 1985 first taped interview sent to Fuhrman prior to second interview
discussed — Fuhrman made no changes
Informal
The full set of 12+ hours of tapes and transcripts
discussed — confirmed provided to both prosecution and defense

Notable Exchanges (2)

Johnnie CochranChristopher DardenJudge Ito
Cochran attempted to establish the N-word use continued through 1988; Darden repeatedly objected on 352 grounds; Ito overruled both times, allowing McKinny to confirm the timeline.
strategic
Johnnie CochranJudge Ito
Ito interrupted to note Cochran was covering ground already addressed, asking 'Haven't we covered this already?' Cochran acknowledged and redirected.
procedural

Credibility Attacks (1)

⚔ Laura Hart McKinny
implied financial motive (preemptively neutralized by Cochran)
Cochran got ahead of any profit motive attack by eliciting that the tapes are not for sale and the screenplay was never sold — making Fuhrman's $10,000 stake moot.

Objections

10 objections (4 sustained, 6 overruled)
Proceeding 7521 • 140 utterances • Defense witness
Criminal Trial
Department 103
⚖️ Start
📂 SEP 6, 1995 📄 Direct examination of Laura Ha
SEP 6, 1995 KRT DvH TD