All right. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Please be seated. Let the record reflect that we have been rejoined by all the members of our jury. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
THE JURY: Good morning.
Good to see all of you back. And I believe that we are back on track and we are going to proceed accordingly. Mr. Bailey, you may call the Defense next witness.
All right. Miss Bell.
Kathleen Bell, called as a witness by the Defendant, was sworn and testified as follows:
Please raise your right hand. You do solemnly swear that the testimony you may give in the cause now pending before this court, shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God.
Please have a seat on the witness stand and state and spell your first and last names for the record.
All right. Miss Bell, if you would just sit back and then pull the microphone toward you, please.
Try and keep your voice up, Miss Bell, so the last people in the jury box can hear you.
Excuse me, Mr. Bailey. Deputy Long, would you pull the easel back there. I think it is in the way--blocking juror 7.
I received my real estate license in September of 1985 and I started working for Bob Maher I believe in October.
Can you tell me whether or not in the immediate vicinity of your real estate office there was located a Marine recruiting station?
Umm, as part of my real estate practice we were supposed to make cold calls and knock on doors and all of that and so during the cold calling sessions I would try to avoid that as best as possible and so I would go walking around the building. And at one time I encountered the Marines at the Marine recruiting center and I just stopped into say hello and kind of to take up some time.
I was on the second floor and they were on the first floor of this Marine recruit--of the shopping center.
Oh, I went and I just walked to the Marine recruiting center down the stairs and then back up. Is that what you are asking?
Umm, between the time that I was working for Bob Maher realty century 21, it was between 1985 and `86.
And what were the circumstances the first time you saw him, as opposed to encountered him?
The first time I saw him I walked down to the Marine recruiting center just to say hello to the Marines and they had a man sitting there and I thought that they were in a meeting, so I just kind of tapped on the window and waved and went back upstairs.
The next time was at that same Marine recruiting center and I came down, and prior to this time the Marines told me that it was okay for me to--that it would have been okay for me to come in that--the previous time.
You can tell us that you had a conversation with them after you first saw Mr. Fuhrman?
Without saying what was said, as a result of that conversation, when you next saw Mr. Fuhrman in their office, what did you do?
I went inside the Marine recruiting center and I introduced myself and I just began speaking to all of the men.
All right. Had you at that time any special reason for wanting to meet Mr. Fuhrman?
What is there about Andrea Terry that you thought might match up well with Mr. Fuhrman?
She is six feet tall and really beautiful and I thought that--she liked tall men and so I thought that she might want to meet him as well.
Umm, I just said hello and the Marines actually introduced me and I don't remember the first kind of shooting the breeze kind of first part of the conversation. It was just very mild and I was talking about Andrea. I began talking about Andrea.
Did you tell Mr. Fuhrman something about a girl named Andrea Terry, without saying precisely what it was?
All right. In the course of giving him that information did you mention the name of anyone who is a public figure?
He said that if--when he sees a black man with a white woman driving in a car he pulls them over.
KEY QUOTEI was taken back a little bit and so I kind of paused and I looked at the Marines and I just said, "Well, what if they didn't do anything wrong?"
All right. And did you talk any further about that hypothetical of a black man riding with a white woman being pulled over?
What was he referring to in your understanding when he used the word "Disgusting"?
That I said--I asked him what if they were in love and I think the idea of them being in love was disgusting to him.
Well, again I looked at the Marines because I had spoken to them before and they didn't seem to be mean people, and so I was waiting for some kind of reaction from them, and then, umm, I just was kind of--I just kind of paused and then he said, "If I had my way I would gather"--"All the niggers would be gathered together and burned."
All right. And what was your reaction when he told you that he would gather the niggers all together and burn them?
Umm, I'm sorry, I didn't--I thought that that was--nobody ever said that to me before. I heard the "N" word before, but nobody ever said something like that to me before.
All right. Did you respond in any way, other than becoming upset when Mr. Fuhrman told you what he would like to do with reference to burning an entire race?
I just--I looked at the Marines and I kind of--they weren't saying anything. They kind of just shrugged their shoulders, and so I kind of got teary-eyed and I left.
Okay. Now, can you help us with the date of this encounter, the first encounter, the second time you saw Mark Fuhrman, best recollection?
The--I know it is between that year that I worked at century 21 Bob Maher and I know that Andrea--she was at BYU going to school and she only returned from school during holidays, so I would say that it is within the holiday times, and I--I really can't be extremely accurate.
Miss Bell, without going into anything that was said between you and Andrea, can you tell us a little about her educational schedule during this period of time?
She would come back for holidays, like I think thanksgiving, mainly Easter and Christmas, and then the summer.
All right. Are you able to relate this experience where Mr. Fuhrman surprised you with that language to any period of the year that would help us determine which of her vacations it might have been?
I tried to--try to--by the weather, but the weather is all the same in California, and I really think it is more toward the summertime or maybe--maybe Easter vacation and then summer vacation, because I seem to have been speaking to Andrea quite a bit throughout this period of time and she really wasn't home for any long period of time except for the summer.
I have known her for many years. She went to my high school and we weren't close friends until a couple of years after high school.
As I understand it, you had talked to her several times in this general time frame?
And would you talk to her when she was at college on a regular basis or only when she was home?
Can you tell us how much time transpired between the moment that you first noticed Mark Fuhrman talking to the Marines but did not intervene, until you introduced yourself to him?
I'm trying to distinguish seeing him from encountering him where you interact or have a conversation.
Had you any prearrangement, to your knowledge, either you or Andrea Terry, to meet Mark Fuhrman at Hennessey's that day?
Are you able to differentiate these meetings as between `85 and `86? You have said that it occurred in one year or the other. What would be your best recollection?
Okay. But in any event, you saw him in the Marine Corps recruiting station on more than 10 occasions during this period?
All right. Now, tell me the circumstances of your meeting at Hennessey's tavern. Who were you with?
Umm, just to--it is kind of like a local pub, almost like a cheers or something like that, and we just wanted to visit with people.
We just sat down and we just started talking, and usually there are a lot of people that we grew up with that visit there and so we say hello to those people and that is it. I remember where we were sitting and all of that.
You walk in Hennessey's and there are some--there are some tables on the left-hand side and the bar is on the left and then on the right there are tables as well and then kind of just one bar going through the middle, and umm, Andrea and I were sitting facing the door.
Just were talking--yes. We ordered--I probably ordered cranberry juice with lime and Andrea I don't--I don't even know. We are not real drinkers.
After you had been there for some period of time did you notice someone you had seen before?
And can you give any further description as to her height and weight and so forth?
How had he been dressed when you talked to him in the Marine recruiting station, if you recall?
He and this woman sat down facing us and so I saw him immediately and it was very uncomfortable, so I told Andrea that that is that man that I told her about that I at first wanted to set her up with, and then I found out what he believed and, umm, then I asked her if we could leave.
Okay. Now, what happened after you said to Andrea that you felt uncomfortable and would like to leave the establishment?
She said "Okay" and I thought that she was going with me, and umm, she--we started walking toward the door. Mark Fuhrman and this woman were sitting as you walk into Hennessey's and you take your first right. He was sitting at a table to the right and he was sitting facing us. So Andrea and I started walking to the door and when we were walking toward the door we were walking toward Mark Fuhrman and this woman, and she started kind of veeing off toward his table, and I was trying to catch her and telling her, you know, don't--what are you doing, you know, and she kind of had a--kind of a grin on her face like she was going to go get his goat or something like that.
I went to the door. I'm not sure if I waited in my car or waited outside, but I know I left.
Can you recall hearing any conversation from either Andrea Terry, Mark Fuhrman or the lady that was with him that day?
I thought she was standing facing them, but, umm, I think she was just standing facing them.
When astrology is relevant, what is important to know about a person before looking at their astrological signs?
I really--I don't know. There is this book that I was given by someone to read and it was talking about how people relate to each other, so I briefly read it and I asked when his birthday was and I remember thinking in my head that he was Aquarius.
Did you have any talk with Mr. Fuhrman about the significance of his astrological sign, if you can remember?
After Andrea came out, and without telling us what she said, did you have any conversation with her about what had transpired while you stepped out of Hennessey's and she was still inside at Fuhrman's table?
I just asked what--actually I didn't really even ask what was said. She just said, "Oh, God."
All right. Now, apart from the television, when you saw him driving in his car do you have any recollection of what kind of vehicle he was driving?
I believe it was an International Scout, like a utility vehicle, and it was kind of a pea green and white.
All right. Do you have any personal knowledge as to whether he owned that vehicle or was simply driving it?
I don't know, but I saw it in front of the Marine recruiting center and I saw him driving it later and I saw it parked in front of Hennessey's and that prevented Andrea from going in, Andrea and me.
All right. Now, you have told us that your second seeing of Mark Fuhrman and your first encounter was probably within three weeks of your first noticing him in the station, when you didn't stop?
Can you relate the Hennessey's bar encounter to the one in the Marine Corps recruiting station in terms of time?
All right. And the occasion in which you simply saw him drive by and had no conversation with him, how much after Hennessey's bar might that have occurred?
All right. What is the longest you would expect Andrea to be in town if she were on other than a summer vacation from Brigham young?
She may have skipped a quarter and I'm not even sure if they are on the quarter system there, but she may have skipped a quarter, and I'm not sure when that was, when that fell.
How did you learn Mark Fuhrman's name? Did someone tell you the name or did he tell you?
When I was introduced to him at the Marine recruiting center I was introduced to him as mark.
All right. As a result of the remarks that Mark Fuhrman said to you on your first encounter--
--where he talked to you, did you do anything with respect to the LAPD that you can recall?
--I did. What did I do? I called the LAPD. I tried anyway. And it wasn't 911, but it was--I seem to recall Culver or Olympic, and I don't know if that means a street or a district or I don't--
I asked for the Los Angeles Police Department in Westwood because that is where he said that he worked at that time, and I don't think there was such a thing, and she was saying, well, I can give you Olympic or Culver or something like that.
Umm, I believe it was a woman, and I hate to be so vague, but I really don't recall, but I truly believe it was a woman.
And can you recall whether or not Mark Fuhrman's name was used during your conversation with whatever woman you spoke to?
I said that they have a police officer named Mark and I told her that he had a racial problem and that I thought they should know, but I didn't have any other information about him and I was afraid to ask the Marines his last name.
I didn't want to seem like I was trying to get information about him to get him into trouble, because I was afraid of him.
Were you asked to do anything further by the woman at the other end of the police line?
Now, my understanding is that from the time you last saw him driving the pea green International Scout, until you saw him on television, you had no direct encounters or indirect encounters with Mark Fuhrman?
You have indicated that you were afraid of him in a way. Can you explain why that is so?
Can you describe his demeanor when he spoke the words using the "N" word about the black race? How did his face appear?
Did you see any signs whatsoever of jocularity in his face as if he were pulling your leg with these outrageous remarks?
All right. When you saw Mark Fuhrman on television, did you recognize him immediately?
All right. You were remembering now what about the Mark Fuhrman you had encountered back in `85 or `6?
Counsel, Miss Bell, would you allow Mr. Bailey to finish asking the question before you start answering, and Mr. Bailey, would you allow her to finish answering before you start to ask the question.
What, if anything, did you do after seeing Mr. Fuhrman testifying in the Simpson case?
I called the news show that I first saw him on. That was the first thing that I did. I wasn't sure what to do, and I just know that I felt afraid again. I felt that same feeling that I felt in that Marine recruiting center when I saw him on television, and I thought that someone should know and I didn't know what to do. So I called the news company and I told some young person on the phone that--what they just showed was true, there is something about this man that is--
Now, Miss Bell, when you say you saw him on the channel, do you mean on the witness stand in court or being interviewed outside of court?
On the witness stand, but I'm not certain if there is--if he was saying anything. I think that the news broadcaster was speaking over the film of him.
What caused you to call the news media? Why did you think that was important, channel 9?
I just really didn't know what to do and I thought that someone should know that it was--something is wrong with this person and something was said, and I was vacuuming kind of and cleaning at the time, and I didn't hear exactly what was said, but something about a racial issue, so I thought that people should know that this person has a problem.
Much later on. Umm, I was walking out from my office where I work and he kind of tracked me down in his news van.
And do you know whether or not that letter has been displayed to this jury earlier in the case?
Well, I thought that--I didn't want someone to be tried without all the information and I thought that there might be some reason that they need to know that Mark Fuhrman said these things to me.
All right. Without saying what was said, were you acting on the advice of anyone or on your own initiative when you wrote the letter?
I don't know. I hadn't been watching the case. I would listen to it on the radio on my way home, but I really wasn't watching it very much.
All right. And without going into what was said, did you have some conversation with him?
Did you thereafter talk with anyone else affiliated with the Defense of this case?
Umm, okay. I spoke with a Pat McKenna, but before that I spoke with a man--umm, excuse me, I don't remember his name.
I'm sorry. He was identified out of the presence of the jury. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Mr. Taylor Daigneault who practices in Redondo Beach.
At some point did you contact Mr. Daigneault, without going into anything that was said?
With respect to your whole involvement in letting the Defense know what he had done years before, when did you seek the advice of Mr. Daigneault on this point?
Probably--gosh, let's see. I don't know when the reporters started finding me, but this is--after the channel 9 reporter found me, that is when I--I contacted him and I don't know what that time frame was. Probably a month later or three weeks later.
All right. All right. All right. Now, at any time did you contact anyone affiliated with law enforcement with this information, or attempt to contact?
I sent my same letter. I faxed my same letter to the Los Angeles County District Attorney's office.
Did you get a response from anyone in the L.A. District Attorney's office after you faxed a copy of the letter to Mr. Cochran?
Or any other lawyer at the Defense table or affiliated with the Defense, to your knowledge, other than the one call from Mr. Douglas?
Okay. Have you been interviewed by either side, that is to say, lawyers for either side?
Have you ever heard from anyone connected with law enforcement since you sent that letter out?
Since I saw Mark Fuhrman I did. I was a little bit more interested, so I started following it.
And do you recall a time when he testified when your name was brought into the trial?
For the record, your Honor, exhibit 102 has been previously shown to the jury in an enlarged form during Mr. Fuhrman's testimony and I would like to bring it up begin now.
And Miss Bell, it will appear on a little television set down to your right and also up on that big screen, but I think you will be able to read it better.
Now, I would like to go through it with you and ask you whether or not you recollect this as being a letter that you originated. First, did you have any help in drafting this letter?
All right. How did you know that Mr. Cochran would be a good person to write to in connection with the information that you had?
I called the information operator and I tried to get Mr. Shapiro's phone number, and he just kind of laughed and said, well, you can't get that phone number.
On that same news broadcast they had mentioned an attorney named Johnnie Cochran and I didn't know even if he was in California or not, so I just thought I would try, and I did get that phone number and he had an answering service and I asked for the fax number.
And when you composed this letter can you tell us mechanically how you did it? Was it handwritten, typed or computer?
You mention that you were writing in regards to a story you saw on the news last night and you previously told us that you think this letter was sent out on July 18th when you got Mr. Cochran's fax number; is that right?
I think I actually wrote the letter on July 18th or 19th and then I ended up staying up so late that it ended up being the 20th that I actually faxed it.
Okay. Well, can you help us with what date is meant by "Last night" in the first paragraph or first sentence of that letter?
I have this at home, I'm sorry. I believe it was the 19th that I started writing it and I saw the news broadcast the 19th, and the 20th is when I actually sent it.
Do you have any recollection, Miss Bell, as to what news program you were watching that you are referring to in that first sentence?
The next says: "I thought it ridiculous that the same Defense team would even suggest that there might be racial motivation involved in the trial against Mr. Simpson." Now, without going into the text of what you had heard before, had you heard such a claim advanced by somebody?
The next sentence you say: "I then glanced up at the television and was quite shocked to see that Officer Fuhrman was a man that I had the misfortune of meeting." When you glanced up at television, as you describe in that sentence, did you recognize Mr. Fuhrman immediately?
Had anyone in your entire life on a first greeting ever treated you the way that you were treated by him in that Marine recruiting station?
All right. You say: "You may have received a message from your answering service last night that I called to say that Mr. Fuhrman may be more of a racist that you can even imagine." Had you left a message on an answering service the night before that you believed to be that of Mr. Cochran?
And did the answering message contain generally the information that is in that sentence? Did it use the word "Racist"?
I don't know if I said anything--actually I do know that I said something. I don't know exactly what it was.
Okay. In other words, you are not sure that you told the answering machine what is in that letter about Mr. Fuhrman, simply that you called to make contact; is that right?
The one that gave you the fax number. You don't recall if you told the woman the text of your--
You said: "Between 1985 and 1986 I worked as a real estate agent." Do you mean by that during `85 and `86?
And was the company out of business at the time you wrote this letter, as you have said?
Okay. And you have told us, I believe, that your office century 21 was in fact located above the Marine recruiting center off of the Pacific Coast Highway. That's correct?
And you would stop on occasion to say hello to the two Marines who work there, you have identified as Mr. Foss and Mr. Roar, right?
They were always in uniform except for once or twice I saw Joe Foss, we went jogging.
" saw Mr. Fuhrman there a couple of times because I remember him distinctly because of his height and build." Now, is that the height and build you told us you noted because you were concerned with fixing up your friend Andrea Terry with someone of equal or greater stature?
When you saw Mr. Fuhrman at the recruiting station on the first two occasions, was he wearing any of the accoutrements of a policeman, like a weapon or that sort of thing that you saw?
Okay. You say that: "While speaking to the men, I learned that Mr. Fuhrman was a police officer in Westwood and I don't know if he was telling the truth but he said that he had been in a special division of Marines."
I would like to stop there for a moment and see if we can sort this out. You saw Mr. Fuhrman through the window, tapped on the window and walked on on the first occasion?
You noted that he was tall and a good looking man. You then spoke with the Marines, when Mr. Fuhrman was not present, about the propriety of introducing yourself?
And subsequently you did introduce yourself to be greeted by his views that you have described; is that correct?
All right. What I want to know is whether or not the information about his having been in a special division of the Marines came from the two Marines or one of them or came from Fuhrman himself?
All right. In other words, they related this to you before you ever talked to him?
After the first time that I met him--that I saw him, I spoke to them and at that time we talked about it a little bit.
Okay. Did you inquire of them as to any other information relating to Mr. Fuhrman, his marital status, what he did, et cetera?
Not his marital status. I--I just said that I was uncomfortable walking in while he was there and they said that he was a former Marine.
That he was a former Marine that just liked to come and shoot the breeze so it was fine that I could walk in.
All right. At that point you say: "I don't know how the subject was raised but Officer Fuhrman said that when he sees an `n,' as he called it, driving with a white woman, he would pull them over." Now, there is no mention of Marcus Allen here. Do you now remember that his name was mentioned before this response?
A moment ago you wanted to explain something to us that you had just recalled. Would you tell was that was?
When--in this letter--I wrote this in a very big hurry and I didn't think that there would be such a need to recall exactly what had happened in detail, so there was a mistake there and the first--he did not say the "N" word when he said "If I saw a black man with a white woman driving in a car he would pull them over." He definitely said "A black man."
Okay. Now, there is no mention in this paragraph about the query supposing they were in love?
Have you gone over this encounter in your mind since the time you wrote this letter?
Do you have, as you sit there today, a clear recollection of the words uttered by Mark Fuhrman as you have described them in your testimony?
Okay. All right. If we can pull up the next paragraph, Mr. Douglas. If would you just read that first sentence and ask you whether or not you distinctly recall him using those words?
"Officer Fuhrman went on to say that he would like nothing more than to see all niggers gathered together and killed. He said something about the burning"--excuse me--"About burning them or bombing them. I was too shaken to remember the exact words he used; however, I do not remember that what he"--wait. I'm sorry. "I do remember that what he said was probably the most horrible thing I had ever heard someone say. What frightened me even more was that he was a police officer."
Okay. Next paragraph, please, Mr. Douglas. All right. You have said in your letter that you are almost sure you called the LAPD. What is your present recollection as to whether you did?
Okay. And in the last full paragraph of information you say that now that you know that Mr. Fuhrman was the investigating officer. Are you relating that to the Simpson investigation?
You said: "I'm certainly not a fan of Mr. Simpson, but I would hate to see anyone harm by Officer Fuhrman's extreme hatred." Now, were you writing this letter or bringing this information forward in an effort to help O.J. Simpson in any way?
KEY QUOTEAll right. And did you invite the recipient, Mr. Cochran, to contact you for further information as it says there?
In one more effort to try and pin down the time frame, is it true that you began to work for Mr. Maher in the fall of `85, early fall, Septemberish?
Now, with respect to time when you faxed the letter to Mr. Cochran's office, how soon thereafter did you fax the same letter to the District Attorney?
Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
THE JURY: Good morning.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. DARDEN
I take it that you understand it that this word, this epithet is the most vile word in the English language?
And you felt the fact that this encounter ought to be made known to the Defense attorneys and also to the D.A.'s office; is that right?
Despite the horror and the trauma Detective Fuhrman's use of this word caused, isn't it true that you still introduced Andrea Terry to Mark Fuhrman?
Now, when you and Andrea Terry saw Detective Fuhrman in Hennessey's bar, did you say to Andrea Terry that Detective Fuhrman would be a good person for her to date?
No. I believe I spoke with Andrea about that after the first time I saw him at the Marine recruiting center, before Hennessey's and before the second time I saw him at the Marine recruiting center.
And did you sit at a table with Andrea Terry and Detective Fuhrman and the other woman you described?
I want to make sure that you have given us a full account as best you can as to what happened between you and Detective Fuhrman then. Have you?
Okay. Now, I believe you told Mr. Bailey that you haven't--strike that. Did you tell Mr. Bailey that you haven't used the "N" word yourself before?
I have never used that to describe another person. I have used it several times--many, many times lately in referring to Mark Fuhrman's conversation.
Okay. Well, other than your references to Mark Fuhrman's conversations, have you ever used that word yourself?
Not one time in the last ten years, that is, other than in reference to Detective Fuhrman's conversations?
You testified also that no one from the D.A.'s office interviewed you; is that right?
But there were attempts by members of the D.A.'s office to interview you; is that right?
I--there was--my attorney was arranging something, but he wanted a court reporter to be there.
Okay. In any event, the D.A.'s office did attempt to interview you; is that right?
Miss Bell, what was the information you were trying to give us about the condition that your attorney imposed on an interview relating to a court reporter? What did he ask you, if you know?
Was there a request that a court reporter be present if you were interviewed by the Prosecution?
All right. And what was the response, as you understand it, from the District Attorney's office that a court reporter be present to take down what was said?
Have you always been willing to submit to an interview, provided a court reporter could be present to take down what was said?
Are you aware that we in the D.A.'s office tape-record almost every interview we do?
Are you aware that the D.A.'s office offered to provide a stenographer during any interview that you might have had with us?
Are you aware that the D.A.'s office offered to provide a stenographer to be present during any conversation that you might have had with us?
He said that if--when he sees a black man with a white woman driving in a car he pulls them over.
He said he would find something.
If I had my way I would gather--All the niggers would be gathered together and burned.
I'm certainly not a fan of Mr. Simpson, but I would hate to see anyone harm by Officer Fuhrman's extreme hatred.
I saw him and it all came back, every bit of it.