Redirect examination of Michael Wacks

📄 Redirect examination of Michael Wacks — Tuesday, September 19, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\SEP\19\REDIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-MICHAE.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 157 of 167

◀ Cross-examination of Michael Wacks Next witness announcement ▶

Witness: Michael Wacks
Examiner: Johnnie Cochran
Called by: Defense • Date: Tuesday, September 19, 1995 • Utterances: 158

Cochran redirects FBI agent Michael Wacks on the chain of events after Craig Fiato called ABC News reporter Vic Walters, tracing how that call eventually led to Wacks reporting the incident up through FBI channels to the DA's office. The bulk of the examination focuses on Wacks's claim that he heard Det. Vannatter make a sarcastic remark about going to Simpson's house 'because he was a suspect' rather than to save lives, with Cochran pressing Wacks to demonstrate the sarcasm and Wacks freely admitting he couldn't recall the exact words or the surrounding context.

# 1 THE COURT:

You are welcome.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. COCHRAN

# 2 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, Mr. Wacks, you became aware, sometime around September 11th, 1995, that Craig Fiato had called Vic Walters of ABC news; isn't that correct?

# 3 MR. WACKS:

Did you say September or--

# 4 MR. COCHRAN:

Well, sometime around September of this particular month?

# 5 MR. WACKS:

Well, I became aware on September 11th, yes, that he called, but I believe the phone call was on the preceding Friday.

# 6 MR. COCHRAN:

I'm talking about the time you became aware of it, sir?

# 7 MR. WACKS:

Yes. I'm sorry, yes.

# 8 MR. COCHRAN:

The phone call was probably on September 8th; is that correct, of 1995?

# 9 MR. WACKS:

I believe so, yes.

# 10 MR. COCHRAN:

You became aware of that phone call on September 11th, right?

# 11 MR. WACKS:

That is correct, yes.

# 12 MR. COCHRAN:

You became aware that Craig Fiato was upset at the way he had been treated out here in Los Angeles the last time he was out here; isn't that correct?

# 13 (No audible response.)

# 14 MR. COCHRAN:

By people in the D.A.'s office?

# 15 MR. WACKS:

Are you speaking about the conversation with Mr. Walters?

# 16 MR. COCHRAN:

Yes. You became aware that Craig Fiato was upset at the way he had been treated by members of the District Attorney's office the last time he was out here?

# 17 MR. WACKS:

I became aware that he related that to Mr. Walters, yes.

KEY QUOTE

# 18 MR. COCHRAN:

And you are aware that he made a statement to the effect that if they treat me the same way as they treated me before I will tell them what I know about the Simpson case? Didn't he tell Vic Walters that?

# 19 MR. WACKS:

That is what he related to me that he told Mr. Walters. I don't know exactly what he told Mr. Walters. That is what he related to him.

# 20 MR. COCHRAN:

He told him, I will tell `em what I know about the Simpson case, right?

# 21 MR. WACKS:

Yes.

# 22 MR. COCHRAN:

In that regard he was talking about the two incidents, the one in the hotel room in January of 1995 and the one on that landing in February of 1995, right?

# 23 MR. WACKS:

When he told me that I wasn't exactly sure what he was talking about.

# 24 MR. COCHRAN:

But at any rate, when you knew that ABC news knew about this, you were concerned there would be a program regarding this, weren't you?

# 25 MR. WACKS:

No. I was concerned that ABC news if--if we are talking about the two incidents that I knew about, that they were going to make a big deal over nothing.

# 26 MR. COCHRAN:

Yes. Now, you will--you met Vic Walters back in April of 1995, had you?

# 27 MR. WACKS:

I was just introduced to him.

# 28 MR. COCHRAN:

And you knew that Craig Anthony Fiato was working on a program, a TV program with ABC that is supposed to come out this fall. You knew that, didn't you?

# 29 MR. WACKS:

Yes, I did.

# 30 MR. COCHRAN:

You were aware he had been cooperating with him; isn't that correct?

# 31 MR. WACKS:

That's correct.

# 32 MR. COCHRAN:

I won't go into the subject matter, but you knew what the subject matter of that was, too, didn't you?

# 33 MR. WACKS:

Yes, I did.

# 34 MR. COCHRAN:

You knew when he made this statement--strike that. You also heard that there was--that there was a mystery witness in this case, did you not?

# 35 MR. WACKS:

Yes, I did.

# 36 MR. COCHRAN:

Once you heard that there was a statement in this room there was going to be a mystery witness, you thought and believed that Craig Fiato and Larry Fiato were those mystery witnesses? Didn't you think that.

# 37 MR. KELBERG:

Objection, leading and suggestive.

# 38 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 39 MR. COCHRAN:

I'm asking.

# 40 MR. COCHRAN:

That is what you thought, isn't it?

# 41 MR. WACKS:

No, that is not what I thought.

# 42 MR. COCHRAN:

You didn't think they were the mystery witnesses?

# 43 MR. WACKS:

No, I did not.

# 44 MR. COCHRAN:

When you went and talked to your Special Agent Marshall about this, you told him what you had heard and what you through about this, didn't you?

# 45 MR. WACKS:

That's correct.

# 46 MR. COCHRAN:

He then immediately told you this was important and contacted the District Attorney's office; isn't that right?

# 47 MR. WACKS:

No, that is not what happened.

# 48 MR. COCHRAN:

Do you know what he said to the D.A.'s office? Were you present?

# 49 MR. WACKS:

No, but there was--there was another sequence of events before it was reported to the District Attorney's office that happened that caused him to believe they were or at least Craig Fiato was this mysterious witness.

# 50 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Well, let me take it a step at a time. At some point after Craig Fiato made this telephone call to Vic Walters of ABC news and Vic Walters and Brian Ross--who is the investigative reporter; isn't that correct?

# 51 MR. WACKS:

Well, he told me he talked to Vic Walters.

# 52 MR. COCHRAN:

All right.

# 53 THE COURT:

Wait a minute. The subject matter of this ABC report has nothing to do with this case, correct?

# 54 MR. COCHRAN:

Well, it may.

# 55 MR. KELBERG:

Your Honor, it doesn't.

# 56 THE COURT:

All right.

# 57 MR. COCHRAN:

Just--

# 58 THE COURT:

Let's move on.

# 59 MR. COCHRAN:

They opened the door, your Honor.

# 60 THE COURT:

Mildly, but now we have explained what the contemplation was, what the issues were. We have covered it. Let's move on.

# 61 MR. COCHRAN:

We will move on. Let me just get a sequence, your Honor.

# 62 MR. COCHRAN:

After you became aware this conversation was made to ABC news by Fiato, you then had a conversation with Craig Fiato, didn't you?

# 63 MR. WACKS:

Well, I had a conversation with him on the 11th when I picked him up at the airport.

# 64 MR. COCHRAN:

He came back out here, right?

# 65 MR. WACKS:

Yes.

# 66 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And at that time--did you call him some unusual name at that point?

# 67 MR. WACKS:

Well, I--we called each other a lot of unusual names over the years.

# 68 MR. COCHRAN:

What--well, the specifics--

# 69 MR. WACKS:

On both sides.

# 70 MR. COCHRAN:

I understand you guys talk about each other, and I don't want to embarrass anybody, but did you call him a special name on this occasion by virtue of the fact that he called Vic Walters?

# 71 MR. WACKS:

Possibly. Oh, because he called Vic Walters?

# 72 MR. COCHRAN:

Yes.

# 73 MR. WACKS:

No. I have no control what Mr. Fiato does.

# 74 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. You didn't go bonkers or berserk because he made this call?

# 75 MR. WACKS:

No, I didn't show that much concern at all.

# 76 MR. COCHRAN:

You didn't get all emotional?

# 77 MR. WACKS:

No.

# 78 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Now, at any rate, moving on then, after that you talked with him and then you talked to Marshall after that; is that right?

# 79 MR. WACKS:

After I dropped him off at the airport, I had lunch with Pat Marshall at another meeting and I mentioned the fact that this had occurred.

# 80 MR. COCHRAN:

Marshall then called you back and beeped you or called you back the next day, was it?

# 81 MR. WACKS:

It was the next morning, yes.

# 82 MR. COCHRAN:

Early in the morning; is that right?

# 83 MR. WACKS:

Yes. I was on my way to court--well, actually I was at home and I got a telephone call and a beep. I talked to him and he asked me to come into the office.

# 84 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. You then went into his office and that is when you told him everything that you knew about this, right?

# 85 MR. WACKS:

I told Mr. Marshall everything I knew about it the day before.

# 86 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. But at that time he indicated to you--

# 87 MR. KELBERG:

I will object, your Honor, as calling.

# 88 MR. COCHRAN:

May I finish the question.

# 89 MR. KELBERG:

We would object, your Honor.

# 90 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 91 MR. COCHRAN:

After this second conversation with Marshall, that is when the D.A.'s office was notified?

# 92 MR. KELBERG:

Objection, calling for speculation.

# 93 MR. COCHRAN:

If you know?

# 94 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 95 MR. COCHRAN:

He can answer that.

# 96 MR. WACKS:

I believe it was, yes.

# 97 MR. COCHRAN:

You talked to Bill Hodgman later that night?

# 98 MR. WACKS:

That's correct, yes.

# 99 MR. COCHRAN:

That started the road to getting us to this point; isn't that right?

# 100 MR. WACKS:

That's correct.

# 101 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, you described for us--and remember I asked you the question you never saw Vannatter laughing during this conversation or whatever. You--

# 102 MR. KELBERG:

Objection, your Honor, as outside the scope of the court's limited reexamination.

# 103 THE COURT:

Overruled, overruled.

# 104 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 105 MR. COCHRAN:

Thank you, your Honor.

# 106 MR. COCHRAN:

In this conversation that you told us about there were discussions about other things of a personal nature during this conversation; isn't that right?

# 107 MR. WACKS:

Yes, there were.

# 108 MR. COCHRAN:

And Vannatter talked about his--

# 109 THE COURT:

Sustained. I have also sustained objections to the other matters.

# 110 MR. COCHRAN:

What I'm trying to get at is based upon--

# 111 THE COURT:

No, no.

# 112 MR. COCHRAN:

He opened it.

# 113 THE COURT:

I have already sustained the objections. We have heard the pertinent part of the conversation. This is a conversation during one cigarette length, all right?

# 114 MR. COCHRAN:

I don't know if it is one cigarette or more for that matter.

# 115 THE COURT:

Let's move on.

# 116 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, during this conversation you answered one of Mr. Kelberg's questions--by the way, with regard to Mr. Kelberg, you refused to talk to me but you talked to Mr. Kelberg prior to your taking the stand, didn't you?

# 117 MR. KELBERG:

Your Honor, outside the scope.

# 118 THE COURT:

Sustained. It is outside the scope. We went through it once before, counsel. It is evident this Special Agent talked to Mr. Hodgman, then talked to Mr. Hodgman and Mr. Kelberg. He has talked to the Prosecution. He declined to talk to you. The jury knows that. Let's proceed.

# 119 MR. COCHRAN:

All right.

# 120 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, with regard to this conversation where you said that you believe that Detective Vannatter was sarcastic, did you say anything to him when you heard the sarcasm?

# 121 MR. KELBERG:

Same objection.

# 122 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 123 MR. WACKS:

No, sir, I did not.

# 124 MR. COCHRAN:

Why don't you demonstrate for the jury how he said--tell us how sarcastically he said, "We didn't go up to Simpson's house not to save lives but because he was a suspect." Tell this jury how he said that sarcastically.

# 125 MR. WACKS:

Well, I'm not much of an actor but he said something to the effect "Going up to the house to save lives, he is a suspect." It was so out of context that I couldn't give you an exact quote or the contents of it, but to my way of thinking it was said in a severe sarcastic tone.

KEY QUOTE

# 126 MR. COCHRAN:

You are right, you aren't an actor. But with regard to that, you don't know what was said before that, do you, because you told us you didn't?

# 127 MR. WACKS:

No, sir, I do not.

# 128 MR. COCHRAN:

You walked out there and what you heard him say was--

# 129 MR. KELBERG:

Objection, your Honor, leading and suggestive, outside the scope. I have not objected to all of these leading questions.

# 130 THE COURT:

Sustained, sustained.

# 131 MR. COCHRAN:

Okay. With regard to the last thing you said, didn't you tell us before that you heard him say--

# 132 MR. KELBERG:

Same objection your, Honor.

# 133 THE COURT:

Counsel, we've gone through the statement now five times.

# 134 MR. COCHRAN:

I will deal with this particular aspect, your Honor. I have a right to do that.

# 135 THE COURT:

Five times is too many. Proceed. Either conclude with something that is new or sit down.

KEY QUOTE

# 136 MR. COCHRAN:

Well, I want to relate this part, your Honor. This is on redirect examination, if the court pleases.

# 137 THE COURT:

Sarcastic, that is what you can cross on.

# 138 MR. COCHRAN:

That is what I'm dealing with, if the court will allow me to.

# 139 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, with regard to this sarcasm, when you heard this sarcastic statement, he said in the sarcastic manner that we didn't go up there to save lives; isn't that right?

# 140 MR. WACKS:

Something to that effect.

# 141 MR. COCHRAN:

We went up there because he was a suspect; isn't that right?

# 142 MR. WACKS:

Something to that effect, yes. I do not know the exact content of what he said. I cannot recall the exact content.

# 143 MR. COCHRAN:

You gave us your best recollection of that; isn't that correct?

# 144 MR. WACKS:

That is correct.

# 145 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And this statement was made and you never made any comment at all; is that correct?

# 146 MR. WACKS:

None whatsoever.

# 147 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. You didn't think that was funny at the time, did you?

# 148 MR. WACKS:

No.

# 149 MR. COCHRAN:

You understand this is a very serious case about a man's life here? You understand that?

# 150 MR. KELBERG:

Your Honor--

# 151 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 152 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Thank you.

# 153 THE COURT:

You are welcome.

# 154 MR. KELBERG:

May the witness be excused?

# 155 THE COURT:

Anything further?

# 156 MR. KELBERG:

Nothing.

# 157 THE COURT:

All right. Thank you very much, sir.

# 158 MR. WACKS:

Thank you, your Honor.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (4)

Michael Wacks

I'm not much of an actor but he said something to the effect 'Going up to the house to save lives, he is a suspect.' It was so out of context that I couldn't give you an exact quote or the contents of it, but to my way of thinking it was said in a severe sarcastic tone.

Wacks simultaneously bolsters and undermines his own account — he insists Vannatter was sarcastic while admitting he can't recall exact words or surrounding context, giving Cochran the opening he needs.

Lance A. Ito

Five times is too many. Proceed. Either conclude with something that is new or sit down.

Judge Ito's frustration with Cochran's repetitive questioning of the Vannatter statement captures the dynamic of the examination.

Lance A. Ito

We have heard the pertinent part of the conversation. This is a conversation during one cigarette length, all right?

Ito's colorful characterization of the conversation's brevity — 'one cigarette length' — underscores how limited Wacks's actual observation was.

Michael Wacks

I became aware that he related that to Mr. Walters, yes.

Wacks carefully distinguishes between what Fiato told him he said versus what Fiato actually said to Walters — a subtle but legally meaningful hedge.

Notable Exchanges (3)

Johnnie Cochran•Lance A. Ito

Ito repeatedly cuts off Cochran's attempts to revisit the Vannatter 'going up to save lives' statement, telling him five repetitions is too many and ordering him to either bring something new or sit down. Cochran pushes back invoking his redirect rights.

heated

Johnnie Cochran•Michael Wacks

Cochran asks Wacks to dramatize Vannatter's sarcasm for the jury; Wacks prefaces his attempt by saying 'I'm not much of an actor,' then gives a vague re-enactment while conceding he doesn't know the exact words or what came before the remark.

strategic

Johnnie Cochran•Lance A. Ito•Brian Kelberg

Brief three-way exchange about whether the subject matter of the ABC news program with Craig Fiato is relevant to the Simpson case. Ito cuts it off, Cochran claims they 'opened the door,' Ito says 'mildly' and moves on.

procedural

Light Moments (3)

Michael Wacks

Cochran asks Wacks if he called Fiato 'a special name' because Fiato called ABC News. Wacks deadpans: 'Well, I — we called each other a lot of unusual names over the years. On both sides.'

Johnnie Cochran

Cochran asks if Wacks 'went bonkers or berserk' about Fiato's call to ABC News.

Johnnie Cochran

Ito calls the Vannatter conversation 'one cigarette length.' Cochran responds: 'I don't know if it is one cigarette or more for that matter.'

Credibility Attacks (2)

⚔ Michael Wacks

admission of incomplete context

Cochran establishes that Wacks walked into the middle of the Vannatter conversation — he does not know what was said before the remark — and that Wacks gave no reaction at the time, undermining the claim that it was obviously and offensively sarcastic.

⚔ Philip Vannatter

prior statement / witness account

Cochran uses Wacks to reinforce that Vannatter said (sarcastically) they went to Simpson's house because he was a suspect, not to save lives — directly attacking the cover story police gave for the warrantless entry.

Objections

11 objections (5 sustained, 5 overruled)

Proceeding 7754 • 158 utterances • Defense witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103