📄 Direct examination of Herbert MacDonell (part 2) — Monday, September 18, 1995
Address:
C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\SEP\18\DIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-HERBERT-.DOC
TRIAL
▲ Day 156 of 167

Direct examination of Herbert MacDonell (part 2)

Witness: Prof. Herbert MacDonell
Examiner: Peter Neufeld
Called by: Defense • Date: Monday, September 18, 1995 • Utterances: 92
Defense expert Professor Herbert MacDonell describes a controlled laboratory experiment he conducted to test whether leather Aris light gloves shrink measurably when heavily saturated with blood. He walked the jury through the full methodology — drawing blood, pouring and smearing it onto gloves, controlling temperature and humidity to match conditions on the night of the murders, and photographing the before-and-after state using photocopier overlays. The examination ended at sidebar when Clark demanded voir dire on MacDonell's interpretation of weather service humidity records.
1 (The following proceedings were held in open court:)
2 MR. NEUFELD:

Can I just have one minute to--

3 THE COURT:

Certainly.

4 (Brief pause.)
5 THE COURT:

Thank you very much, counsel.

6 MR. NEUFELD:

Professor MacDonell, to conduct this experiment, did you receive from the Defense a pair of extra large Aris light gloves that had been provided to us by Mr. Rubin from the Isotoner company?

PROF. MACDONELL: Yes, I did.

7 MR. NEUFELD:

And were you aware of the fact that Mr. Rubin had stated that the gloves that you received for the experiment were identical in terms of make and model and size to the--to the gloves from Bundy and from Rockingham?

8 MS. CLARK:

Objection. Objection. Misstates the size.

9 THE COURT:

Overruled.

PROF. MACDONELL: That is my understanding.

10 MR. NEUFELD:

Okay. In other words, sir, did you receive extra large gloves?

PROF. MACDONELL: Yes, I did.

11 MR. NEUFELD:

And were they Aris leather lights?

PROF. MACDONELL: Yes.

12 MR. NEUFELD:

And in fact, were you aware--were you aware of the fact that the gloves that you received were identical to the gloves that Mr. Darden used in his second demonstration with new gloves involving Mr. Simpson?

PROF. MACDONELL: Yes.

13 MS. CLARK:

Objection. No foundation, your Honor.

14 THE COURT:

Overruled.

15 MS. CLARK:

Speculation.

16 MR. NEUFELD:

Now, would you please tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury what you did as an experiment to determine the extent of shrinkage, if any, when gloves are heavily smeared with blood?

PROF. MACDONELL: Yes. I--I took the gloves one at a time and put, for example, the right glove on my right hand and a rubber latex glove on my left hand. I had a laboratory technician draw a vacutainer of blood and comparing that to a calibrated vacutainer, I knew how much blood was in that tube. I then poured the blood over the leather glove cupping the palm upward as I'm indicating so it would hold the blood as much as possible (Indicating). This was done very quickly so there would be no clotting involved. There was no anticoagulant in the tube. This was a tube that just drew blood. You must work rather quickly or it will clot. I then put the tube down and began smearing the blood with the rubber tips in my fingers. The reason for the rubber tips and the gloves in total, the rubber ones was because I was going to alternate and put that hand in the left glove next. So I didn't want it wet with blood or anything else. I just kept smearing it around until it was running through my fingers over the glove and around the back and I just kept doing that for approximately half a minute or more or less until I--I felt I was no longer working with wet fluid blood. This was over a very large funnel. The funnel emptied into a graduated cylinder so I could determine the amount of blood that was recovered. Through an independent experiment, I found the amount of blood on the funnel was approximately two drops. So I knew the volume that I started with, the volume I ended with, the volume that was on the funnel and, therefore, the approximate volume of what was on the glove, which was approximately 2 milliliters, and that was a very wet surface, glistening glove.

I immediately took it off and put one in a bag which I sealed up, a plastic Ziploc bag. This was then repeated with the same arm giving blood again. At this time, we had again approximately nine milliliters of blood or thereabouts in the vacutainer, poured it over the other hand, repeated the process, caught the blood that did not adhere to the glove and subtracting the amount of the blood on the fingertips and in the funnel, I concluded again it was 1.9 to 2 milliliters of blood in each case. The amount that was adhering made the gloves very glistening and bloody for one of more descriptive terms and this glove was also allowed to dry without being placed in a bag. These were both done very quickly so there was no clotting of the blood on the surface of the glove.

17 MR. NEUFELD:

Now, Professor MacDonell, while you were conducting this experiment, was someone taking photographs of the procedure?

PROF. MACDONELL: Yes, they were. And prior to actually doing the experiment, rather than measure the gloves, linear measurements with a ruler, I simply put the gloves on to a copy machine and made a one-to-one copy. I verified that by the log and width dimension of the copy machine using a transparent ruler, and the copies were accurately made, no reduction or no enlargement. So I had a record before I started, and then after the gloves were ultimately dry--before they were bloodied, I had my associate put on both gloves. He's a large man. They fit quite well. He thought they were a very nice fit for him. Then we did the blood experiment. After it was dry, I copied the gloves again, making no effort to smear them out or spread them out I should say, just laying them down flat. They were both dried in a flat configuration. They were not crumpled up. They were just laying flat. After the--after both gloves were dry, I put them on the copy machine again and copied them so I would be able to compare them before and after directly. I made an overlay, a transparency if you will of the second or the after phase. That way, we can put the before and after together and see through the after which I did with a red toner. That allows a very easy comparison, I feel much more easily understood than a series of numbers showing the length of each finger and a width at a certain point and so on. I felt that was a very easy way to see what shrinkage, if any, would occur or had occurred at that point, and that was what I did on the experiment.

18 MR. NEUFELD:

Okay. Now, Professor MacDonell, before we get to the results of the experiment, you mentioned a moment ago that photographs were taken.

PROF. MACDONELL: That is correct.

19 MR. NEUFELD:

During the course of the experiment?

PROF. MACDONELL: Yes.

20 MR. NEUFELD:

Okay.

21 MR. NEUFELD:

What is next in order, your Honor?

22 THE COURT:

137--

23 THE CLERK:

8.

24 THE COURT:

--78.

25 MR. NEUFELD:

I would ask each of these five photographs be marked 1378-A through E.

26 THE COURT:

So marked.

27 (Deft's 1378-A through E, for id = photographs)
28 THE COURT:

Mr. Neufeld.

29 MR. NEUFELD:

Thank you.

30 MR. NEUFELD:

I ask you to look at, professor, Defendant's 1378-A through E. Can you identify those five pictures, sir?

PROF. MACDONELL: Yes. These are five of the pictures taken during the experiment.

31 MR. NEUFELD:

And would it help to explain in narrative how the experiment was conducted for the jury to see these pictures?

PROF. MACDONELL: Well, I've explained it already. But with those, I might be able to point out more specifically what was accomplished at any given picture.

32 MR. NEUFELD:

Thank you.

33 MR. NEUFELD:

Your Honor, with the court's permission--

34 THE COURT:

On the elmo, yes.

35 (Brief pause.)
36 MR. NEUFELD:

Could you please tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury what is shown in that picture?

PROF. MACDONELL: There is on the lower right a red top tube which has been calibrated in a milliliter each inch increment. So by drawing the tube of blood in the same kind of a vacutainer, a direct comparison could be made to see how much blood we started with. The large funnel is quite clearly evident in the center and going up to the top, and a graduated cylinder is underneath it to catch whatever spilled over from the glove and the rest is the background of my laboratory sink, which isn't too tidy.

37 MR. NEUFELD:

Okay. Would you take a look at what will be photograph B. And what does that photograph reflect?

PROF. MACDONELL: This shows the technician is drawing blood from the left arm, and I think right over her gloved hand, you can see the right-hand glove is on. That's the one that was sent to me and that's just the process of obtaining blood.

38 MR. NEUFELD:

And now looking at photograph C, what's reflected in that photograph, sir?

PROF. MACDONELL: Well, that shows the final--no, I'm sorry--the beginning portion. I just tipped it up to pour the blood on the back of the hand to let it run over the back, and some is of course spilled on through and you can see the funnel is coated; and then after that, you can also see the cotton in my left arm where blood had been just drawn. Now, immediately after this, I turned it over and poured the rest of the blood into the palm.

39 MR. NEUFELD:

I'll show you photograph D. And what is reflected in that photograph?

PROF. MACDONELL: It shows the rest of the blood in the palm of the hand and the blood on the fingers quite clearly. Unfortunately, we didn't take a picture or my associate, Mr. Kish, did not take a picture of my fingertips doing the smearing around. It was smeared after this picture was taken. This only reflects the blood that's poured into the back and on the palm. Then it was smeared around more which is reflected by the glove itself.

40 MR. NEUFELD:

And for approximately how long did you continuously smear the blood into the right-hand glove before you then went on to do the experiment on the left-hand glove?

PROF. MACDONELL: Well, I spent approximately I would say 30 seconds during the actual smearing process, but we didn't do the left-hand glove immediately thereafter. We had a few things to clean up and more blood to draw. So it was not one, two. It was one in maybe five.

41 MR. NEUFELD:

With the court's permission, could you please--because very often, people have different perception of 30 seconds or what a minute is, could you please demonstrate for the jury by using your fingers and showing the motion that you utilized during the experiment the approximate duration that you continuously rubbed blood into that glove. And you can begin whenever you'd like.

PROF. MACDONELL: All right. I won't look at the clock. I work in a dark room quite a bit and I think I have a more accurate estimation of the length of time than a lot of people. 30 seconds is quite a long time. And I just began smearing it. This is after it's already been poured. So there may have been several seconds, maybe as long as 10 in the pouring process. So I just--I just did it both sides and over the back and I did it until no more blood was running off of my glove or off of the glove into the funnel and I tried to wipe the blood off of the fingertips as completely as I could so I wouldn't have to account for that blood. But somewhere in a period of time, something like that would be in my estimation approximately half a minute, 25 seconds, even maybe slightly less or it could have been 40 seconds. I did not have a timer going because it was very difficult to do all these things at once and also keep a timing record.

42 MR. NEUFELD:

Now, are the gloves that are shown in the photographs--are the gloves shown in this photograph, is that the actual Aris light glove that you received?

PROF. MACDONELL: Yes. That's the right one in the current elmo picture.

43 MR. NEUFELD:

And, sir, you said that the right glove was put into a plastic bag?

PROF. MACDONELL: Yes.

44 MR. NEUFELD:

And then did you repeat the same experiment with the left glove?

PROF. MACDONELL: Yes. The same experiment with the left glove. And again, I used the fingertip of a rubber latex glove to keep trying to get the blood to impregnate into the leather as much as I could. It wasn't just a light motion laterally. It was more or less pushing down and to try to saturate the external surface. Although it did not wet that well, it was certainly covered with blood and wet when I finished.

45 MR. NEUFELD:

And you said you used approximately nine millimeters of blood?

PROF. MACDONELL: That's what I poured over it, but that's not how much remained on the glove. There was only approximately two milliliters.

46 MR. NEUFELD:

And that would be the approximate amount for the second glove as well?

PROF. MACDONELL: Yes. They're--I think one was 1.9 and one was two. I have those figures, but it's really not--it's an estimate because I did measure the blood on the funnel and estimated the thin film of blood on the gloves and added that to the amount of blood or subtracted it from that which was used by adding it to what was recovered.

47 MR. NEUFELD:

And by the way, sir, in your opinion, would the results have been any different had you poured twice as much blood on these gloves as you did?

48 MS. CLARK:

Objection. Calls for speculation.

49 THE COURT:

Sustained.

50 MR. NEUFELD:

Do you have any basis for giving an opinion as to whether it would make a difference if you poured twice as much blood on the glove as you poured?

PROF. MACDONELL: Yes.

51 MR. NEUFELD:

And what is the basis for that, sir?

PROF. MACDONELL: Well, the volume of blood I don't think is as crucial as the length of time. In other words, if I recycle it--

52 MS. CLARK:

Objection. No foundation.

53 THE COURT:

Overruled.

54 MR. NEUFELD:

Continue.

PROF. MACDONELL: If I kept recycling it, I don't know how long it would be, if that--I could do that before the blood had clotted into a glopnous mass, and then that would dry on the glove as well. So if it's wet, it's wet and it won't hold anymore.

55 MS. CLARK:

Objection, your Honor. Objection. That was all speculation, no foundation shown.

56 THE COURT:

Overruled.

57 MR. NEUFELD:

Now, with the second glove, after you conducted the experiment on the second glove, where did you place it for drying?

PROF. MACDONELL: I placed the second glove on filter paper in a humidity chamber.

58 MR. NEUFELD:

Showing you photograph E, ask if you can identify that. Could you please tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury what is in photograph e?

PROF. MACDONELL: It's a very large glass desiccator, and in the top part, you can see the glove. That is the center. Actually you can see the glove. You can actually see the red blood on the glove. That's resting on filter paper. The filter paper is on a wire mesh that supports it above the slurry of potassium chloride, which is a wet slurry, a slushy mixture is the best way to describe it.

59 MR. NEUFELD:

Did you make any effort, sir, to replicate the temperature and humidity conditions as they existed on the night of June 12th, 1994, in the early morning hours of June 13th, 1994?

60 MS. CLARK:

Objection. Calls for speculation, no foundation.

61 THE COURT:

Foundation.

62 MR. NEUFELD:

Did you--by the way, when you--in this special chamber, are you able to control the temperature and humidity?

PROF. MACDONELL: Yes.

63 MR. NEUFELD:

Okay. And to determine what temperature and what humidity to set for that drying chamber, did you review the official United States Department of Commerce Weather Service reports for Los Angeles airport for the night of June 12th, 1994 and the morning hours of June 13th, 1994?

64 MS. CLARK:

Objection. No foundation, no expertise, calls for speculation.

65 THE COURT:

Overruled.

PROF. MACDONELL: Yes, I did.

66 MR. NEUFELD:

I show you, sir, what is already in evidence as Defendant's exhibit no. 1280.

67 MS. CLARK:

May I see it?

68 (Brief pause.)
69 MS. CLARK:

There's no foundation for this witness to testify to. It requires extrapolation, your Honor.

70 THE COURT:

Overruled. It's in evidence. I received this already.

71 MS. CLARK:

That's not my--this is beyond the scope of his expertise.

72 THE COURT:

Overruled.

73 (Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)
74 MS. CLARK:

Your Honor, there's no statement about humidity in that.

75 MR. NEUFELD:

That's not true.

76 THE COURT:

Proceed.

77 MR. NEUFELD:

Thank you.

78 MR. NEUFELD:

I ask you to take a look at Defendant's 1280, sir. Does the U.S. weather service report for the Los Angeles airport for the night of June 12th, 1994 and the morning hours of June 13th, 1994 from approximately 10:30 or 10;00 I think--I'm sorry--are estimates for time and temperature given at a certain portion of each hour at a certain point in each hour?

PROF. MACDONELL: Yes, they are.

79 MR. NEUFELD:

Is it--and what time is that--is it given?

PROF. MACDONELL: It is usually given approximately 10 minutes to the hour, nine or 10 minutes to the hour, being like 10:50, 11:50 and so on.

80 MR. NEUFELD:

And, sir, what do those official weather service records indicate was the range in temperature between approximately 10:50 P.M. on the evening of June 12th and 9:50 A.M. on the morning of June 13th, 1994?

81 MS. CLARK:

Objection. Incomplete, Los Angeles airport.

82 THE COURT:

Overruled.

PROF. MACDONELL: The temperature range is 64 degrees Fahrenheit to 69 degrees Fahrenheit.

83 MR. NEUFELD:

And, sir, did you--what was the temperature for your drying experiment that's depicted in that picture?

84 MS. CLARK:

Objection. Objection, your Honor. 352.

85 THE COURT:

Sustained. Shrinkage experiment.

86 MR. NEUFELD:

No, no, no. But--

87 THE COURT:

What was the temperature inside the chamber?

88 MR. NEUFELD:

What was the temperature inside the chamber, professor?

PROF. MACDONELL: 69 degrees Fahrenheit.

89 MR. NEUFELD:

And, sir, do the records indicate what the humidity range was from the--from 10:50 P.M. on the evening of June 12th until 9:50 A.M. on the morning of June 13th?

PROF. MACDONELL: Yes, they do.

90 MR. NEUFELD:

And what was the humidity range?

91 MS. CLARK:

Objection, your Honor. Ask that the witness be taken on voir dire with respect to the interpretation of those records.

92 THE COURT:

Let me see counsel at sidebar with the reporter, please.

Temperature

procedural

Key Quotes (4)

Herbert MacDonell
I then put the tube down and began smearing the blood with the rubber tips in my fingers... I just kept smearing it around until it was running through my fingers over the glove and around the back and I just kept doing that for approximately half a minute or more or less until I felt I was no longer working with wet fluid blood.
Establishes the core methodology of the shrinkage experiment — designed to show that even heavily blood-saturated gloves may not shrink enough to explain the fit during the Simpson try-on demonstration.
Herbert MacDonell
I made an overlay, a transparency if you will of the second or the after phase. That way, we can put the before and after together and see through the after which I did with a red toner. That allows a very easy comparison, I feel much more easily understood than a series of numbers showing the length of each finger.
Describes the before/after photocopy overlay technique, which is the visual centerpiece of the shrinkage demonstration — intended to be juror-friendly evidence.
Herbert MacDonell
30 seconds is quite a long time... somewhere in a period of time, something like that would be in my estimation approximately half a minute, 25 seconds, even maybe slightly less or it could have been 40 seconds. I did not have a timer going because it was very difficult to do all these things at once.
MacDonell performed a live demonstration of the smearing motion in real time for the jury — a rare moment of physical enactment of expert methodology in open court.
Herbert MacDonell
The temperature range is 64 degrees Fahrenheit to 69 degrees Fahrenheit.
Establishes the atmospheric conditions the night of the murders, which MacDonell used to calibrate his drying chamber — anchoring the experiment to real-world conditions at Bundy.

Evidence (3)

Defendant's 1378-A through E
Five photographs taken during the glove blood-saturation experiment in MacDonell's laboratory
introduced and narrated on ELMO for jury
Defendant's 1280
Official U.S. Department of Commerce Weather Service report for Los Angeles airport, covering the night of June 12 and morning of June 13, 1994
referenced to establish temperature (64–69°F) and humidity conditions for drying chamber calibration
Informal
Extra large Aris leather light gloves provided by Richard Rubin (Isotoner), same make/model/size as Bundy and Rockingham gloves
used as experimental subjects in blood saturation and shrinkage test

Notable Exchanges (3)

Peter NeufeldHerbert MacDonell
Neufeld asked MacDonell to physically demonstrate for the jury the 30-second smearing motion he used during the experiment, in real time, without looking at a clock.
strategic
Marcia ClarkLance A. Ito
Clark repeatedly objected to MacDonell testifying about weather service humidity records, arguing no foundation and lack of expertise; Ito overruled most objections but called sidebar when Clark demanded voir dire on humidity interpretation.
contentious
Marcia ClarkPeter Neufeld
Clark interrupted off-record to argue there was 'no statement about humidity' in Defendant's 1280; Neufeld flatly replied 'That's not true' before Ito told them to proceed.
adversarial

Light Moments (3)

Herbert MacDonell
MacDonell described the background of one experiment photograph as 'my laboratory sink, which isn't too tidy.'
Herbert MacDonell
MacDonell justified his time-estimation ability by noting 'I work in a dark room quite a bit and I think I have a more accurate estimation of the length of time than a lot of people.'
Herbert MacDonell
MacDonell coined the phrase 'glopnous mass' to describe fully-clotted blood recycled over the glove.

Witness Demeanor

(Indicating) — MacDonell cupped his palm upward to physically demonstrate how he held the glove during blood pouring
(MacDonell performs live timed demonstration of smearing motion for jury without looking at a clock)

Objections

11 objections (2 sustained, 8 overruled)
Proceeding 7727 • 92 utterances • Defense witness
Criminal Trial
Department 103
⚖️ Start
📂 SEP 18, 1995 📄 Direct examination of Herbert
SEP 18, 1995 KRT DvH TD