Mr. Blasier. Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.
THE JURY: Good afternoon.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BLASIER
You haven't tried to shade your opinion in any way to favor one side or the other?
Now, on July 3rd, you were sent pictures from--in fact, most all the pictures here, you were sent back on July 3rd before the Prosecution finished their case, correct?
You were sent pictures from Mr. Renken, from Mr. Krueger, Mr. Schott, Mr. West and Mr. Romano, correct?
Okay. And you were told beforehand that you were going to be getting some pictures that the Prosecution wanted you to look at, correct?
And you answered that letter before the Defense started calling witnesses, didn't you?
Now, in your letter to the Prosecution of July 6th, you told them at that time that the pictures from Renken, Krueger, Schott, West and Romano, that it was your opinion that those were the Aris leather light style, correct?
I actually either in telephone conversation--I'm not a hundred percent knowledgeable of the letter because I haven't seen it, but I did ask them at least over the phone that I wanted to see enhanced blow-ups and I'd like to look at some of these things, you know, in the negative or on a small monitor.
Did you indicate in your letter on all eight photos none of the detail that can be seen indicates that the gloves could be a style other than 70263?
You're indicating unequivocally that in your opinion, from those pictures that you had last July, it was an Aris glove, correct?
That's not the case. What I meant by that statement categorically was that I did not see any features in any one of those photos that would indicate that it would be any other style that I had knowledge of. That's what I meant by that statement.
And you didn't indicate to us that what you meant by that was that it was your opinion back then that from those pictures, you could make an identification that those are Aris 70263?
All right. Did you tell us yesterday that you had decided that what you meant by this sentence in here, that you decided back then that your expert opinion was that those were the same style glove?
Did you tell us yesterday that what you meant by that sentence is what it says, that you could--that in your opinion, these were the Aris style gloves?
What I meant by that statement categorically was that the features that I could see in the pictures, not one feature would lead me to a non 70263 Aris light style. That's what I meant by the statement.
Now, when you wrote that letter to the Prosecution back on July 6th, did you include as part of that letter--
--"If you should have any questions, please feel free to contact me at anytime. Please thank everyone for their hospitality during my visit. Maybe I can make it to the victory party," exclamation point, exclamation point?
This statement was made in jest, no differently than on the first day that I testified here, as I walked out, I wished Mr. Simpson and the crowd the best of luck. It meant nothing.
Also, did you indicate in that letter in a P.S., "At your convenience, could you obtain business cards from all the members of your staff as I want to make one, only one piece for my office as memorabilia of my experience. Please include Mr. Hodgman and Miss Clark"?
Now, you were planning to construct some sort of memorabilia for your office for your customers to see?
I have probably 300 envelopes that have been sent to me around the country regarding this testimony. Most of them I haven't even opened yet, and I was planning on actually taking one article, putting some business cards in it and framing it and putting it in my office as a remembrance of my experience. That's all it was.
No. I was actually part of the management team. I ran the men's glove division, the wholesale division and had some other responsibilities.
Now, you said you actually manufactured the gloves yourself I think on direct. Did you mean that?
Were you part of the manufacturing process where you get in there, work the machinery and see how it worked?
Now, you have been completely out of the glove business since the middle of 1990, haven't you?
And would you agree that your primary experience with Aris was in sales and marketing?
Now, would you agree that there are many, many people in the glove business that have far more experience with gloves than you?
I would say that in the overall glove industry, Mr. Zuckerware is one of maybe four or five people that has tremendous experience. As far as men's gloves in sales, marketing, design and production, I feel that my experience regarding Aris product is very excessive as far as his knowledge, and in the overall production, sales, marketing of men's gloves, I feel that my knowledge is excessive than his.
Probably--I don't want to date the gentleman, but I would say that 35 years' experience.
Can you be more specific regarding glove experience? As far as from a manufacturing point confined to Aris or to other outside facilities? What do you mean by this?
Let me rephrase that. Do you have any experience at all with respect to other facilities besides Aris? Have you ever worked for a glove company other than Aris?
No. But I have worked with many outside sources of glove manufacturing outside of the controlled and owned operations of Aris.
Now, you say "Work with." You mean, attend conventions with, talk in terms of sales, that sort of thing?
No. I mean actually going to their factories, developing product, planning production, designing new styles, taking customers to certain facilities. Very wide scope range.
Well, specifically in the casual end of the business and some dress styles, a company called palace industries which has operations in--did have operations in Thailand, still does, has operations in china, now in Vietnam and also Taiwan, and then I also had experience in working with the Hungarian government in approximately seven different factories throughout Hungary. I've worked in Czechoslovakia. I've also bought and visited factories in Taiwan and Korea and actually was part of the team that set up a factory in India.
Now, one of the parts of your testimony here is that the Brossier stitching that you've described that Aris uses is, "Unique" is the word that you use. Did you mean "Unique" to mean only one of a kind?
It is not one of a kind. These machines were produced from approximately the early 1900's up until World War II and I'm sure there's machines that exist all over the country. I've just not sure where.
On a worldwide basis, I really don't know. I did know what we manufactured and we had estimates of what other manufacturers in the United States sold.
In men's gloves, my best estimate in 1990 were, there were approximately six and a half to seven million pair out there.
Okay. How about gloves for sale throughout the world? Do you have any idea how much more that would be?
Now, would you agree that the vast majority of men's gloves have three lines on the back? They're called backing, aren't they?
Okay. Vast majority of men's gloves have those three lines on the back, don't they?
Now, you indicated that one of the reasons that Aris used that particular stitch was to separate those Aris gloves from the run of the mill gloves that you might find in target or k-mart or other large retail outlets. Is that fair?
Well, I think you said that it was to distinguish that glove from the less expensive gloves.
In general, the combination of the sewing machine used the point configuration, the blind hem and the weight of the leather and the weight of the lining was what was put together as a package to create an exclusive product. But it wasn't just the one element.
Now, there are a lot of exclusive stores throughout the world, in New York, all over the place that sell high-end leather goods like gloves, correct?
Now, you made some effort to try and find out what other manufacturers in the world might have used Brossier stitching and produced gloves without stitching, correct?
They told me that they had produced a glove with Brossier stitching a couple of years ago in small quantity.
Okay. So the two companies--the only two companies that you checked with, one of them does this stitch, correct?
Now, if--do you have any idea how many other glove manufacturers there are in the world?
If--would you agree that there's over a hundred other glove manufacturers in various parts in the world that--go ahead.
If you define glove manufacturers as anybody who is manufacturing quantity and distributing it on their own, a person who has six employees in a small shop technically is a glove manufacturer. So I'd say in places like Italy, Hungary and certain other eastern European countries, there could be hundreds of manufacturers. They would relatively be quite small as far as production.
Now, you know that--you've seen this stitch on an Italian glove some years ago, didn't you?
Have you made any effort to contact singer to find out other machines there are throughout the world?
This stitch is a very fine whip stitch, and the machine that I'm familiar with, it does make a stitch that's similar. That's the Ozan sewing machine. The one I'm thinking of is made by a company called treasure.
The Ozan sewing machine normally runs at about 10 to 12 stitches per minute. The Brossier sewing machine runs at twice that, and the difference is in the bite. When it's a whip stitch, most of those whip stitch type machines in the bite, you get a high, low effect on the Ozan stitching machine and you get a larger seam than you would on a continuous seam and fine seam on the Brossier. But to a layman, the stitch is--stitches would appear to be somewhat similar.
I'm not a technician. I'm not sure if it's capable of making a stitch that tight or not. I've never seen Aris production or some other production with Ozan do more than 12 stitches an inch on the Ozan machine.
Did you make any effort - incidentally, Ozan machines are fairly common, aren't they?
Within Aris, the largest amount of gloves that were out on the marketplace were Ozan.
Since I never really looked at the numbers on the machines that were at Aris Philippines for style--I've seen similar machines to this with the wheel. I'm very familiar with that. It's very common. But I don't know for a fact that it was a Bonis BG12 machine.
All right. So the machines you've seen, they can do 25 stitches an inch, can't they?
So I take it then other than calling two companies and asking them specifically about the Brossier machine, you made no effort to find out what kind of other machines might make a stitch that fine?
Now, the two companies that you contacted, did you just ask them about the Brossier stitching?
Well, in regard to Fownes, I asked them if they had any of the equipment. They told me no, and that was pretty much the end of the conversation. And I do have friends that work there. So we may have discussed other things that I'm not aware of. In regard to my conversation with Mr. Zuckerware, a technician within their company was in the room and mentioned the style number or the--
You didn't ask anybody about the three lines, the silking on the back, did you, in terms of how other people may or may not use that?
So you've made no effort to find out how common or rare the silking is, and that's the three points on the back?
Now, you were asked some questions about glove wear and I think you indicated that they wear out from the inside first.
That's because the cashmere lining was underweight by design and cashmere is a little bit more fragile than most materials that we use for linings, and only using one thread of cashmere versus two, we were concerned about wear and tear on the lining, and that's why in this particular style, the wear and tear would first show up on the lining.
Would you agree that people that live in New York in the winter wear gloves more often than people in California?
The more you wear gloves, the more you would expect to have indications of wear, correct?
Now, you indicated to me yesterday, did you not, that you were surprised at how little wear there was on the inside of the Bundy and Rockingham gloves?
And is it not your opinion or isn't it your opinion that that is probably because whoever wore those gloves on a regular basis had relatively small hands?
That's not exactly what I said. What I said to you out in the hallway was that the person that wore the gloves either wore them on brief periods of time or they fit that person very comfortably. They were not the wrong size.
You didn't make a comment to me about someone that didn't have large hands wore those gloves because of almost no wear on the lining?
No. I stated to you that the person that wore those gloves fit into these gloves without any strain on the lining which would cause excessive wear. I spoke to you more about what would cause excessive wear versus what would cause less wear.
Regarding the lack of wear in the lining of the evidence gloves and your statement that that's an indication--one of the inferences you can draw from that is that they were owned by somebody with smaller hands, that didn't stretch them out.
The person that--I stated to you that the person that wore the gloves did not have larger hands than the glove size itself.
All right. Was the point you were trying to make, that the person with larger hands is going to fill out the gloves and there's going to be more wear on the lining than someone whose hands are smaller?
There's no way to determine the exact time frame of how long a pair of gloves would last. But it's a personal thing, the way a person uses the gloves, the way the gloves fit. You could wear them one or two times, get caught in a snow storm and change a tire and the gloves are pretty messed up. There's no way of telling.
Isn't it fair that one reasonable inference from the fact that these gloves are more worn on the outside than the inside is that the person who owned them had small hands that didn't fill them out and cause the inside to wear?
And from the time that you arrived here until you were in court yesterday, some of that time was spent with Prosecutors looking at pictures and videos again?
And while you were in the process of doing that, you noticed on one picture that there appeared to be a defect on one of the brown gloves in the pictures, didn't you?
No. What I stated to Mr. Darden was, I thought I saw a shadow, that I would like to look at the gloves in person to see if I could detect a defect.
That's what you came down here to look at the gloves for, to see if you could find a defect, correct?
I wanted to see if there was any marking in a specific part of the glove that corresponded to a shadow in one of the videos. I wasn't sure of whether it was lighting, whether it was a mark. Just wanted to look at it.
To see if there was a defect on the evidence gloves that corresponded to what you saw in the picture?
Now, which picture were you looking at where you thought you saw shadow, defect or whatever you want to call it?
I don't think that picture was actually used here. It was one of the photos that was thrown out. It was a right hand.
I believe that in an effort to save time, they just started to arbitrarily knock out different photographers and photos.
All right. Now, you've indicated from many of these pictures that it's your opinion that you can identify the three points on the back as being the same type of three points that is on the Aris 70263, correct?
Do you recognize that as a document that shows various different kinds of stitching that can be used on gloves?
Are all those--they're actually--there's different kinds of backing stitching, correct, the three points we're talking about?
Yes. These are different configurations of what I would call three decorative points on the back of the glove.
KEY QUOTEOkay. So there may be some out there that, even though you have a lot of experience with gloves, that you're not familiar with?
And the top part of that diagram indicates different kinds of stitching for fingers, right?
Okay. But you recognize each one of those--I mean, they're described underneath them; are they not?
Mr. Rubin, can you see those sample stitches? Those are the silkings we've been talking about?
These stitches are actually so poor and not really indicative of what they say compared to what's a glove. If you want me to pull out a glove to show you--like at the bottom right, it says four-needle stitching. If you want me to pull out a glove and show you what four-needle stitching looks like--it doesn't look like this. I can't tell from this.
The way the draw machine works, there are five positions. There are five needles. You can configure this to do things in different format. What's on the back of 70263 is needle no. 1, 2 and 3 with thread without cord. I don't know where it is on here. It's a blur.
Your testimony, that you can tell that backing was made with a particular configuration of three needles?
It appears to have a ridge in the middle--the reason I came up with that is, it appears to have a ridge or a high, low in the middle of each point, and that's what gave me indication that it was three needles. There has to be a needle on the right, a needle on the left, and because it has a ridge look, I think there's a needle in the middle, and that's what gave me that conclusion.
You have to remember, I've had the opportunity to look under this photo with a magnifying glass--
Mr. Rubin, we're talking about these pictures that the Prosecution offered. Are you telling me from that picture that you can see three lines of stitching?
From this picture, I see a ridge in the middle of the point, which indicates the third needle.
Now, just so we're clear, you're saying that in that picture--or are you saying that you can identify for each of those three lines in the backing, that each line has three needle stitches in it?
Now, in one of these pictures, in the Renken picture from `91, you identified water spots on the gloves?
There are no corresponding water spots on the evidence glove that correspond to the water spots on those gloves, correct?
I'd have to re-look at it again, but I don't think that I could even make any judgment regarding to those particular water spots as to how they relate to a glove today.
Well--all right. I asked you yesterday, did I not, that if you got water spots on a glove like that, they might stay there, right?
Yes. I said to you that as the gloves were worn again and stretched out, they would dissipate.
KEY QUOTETo refresh your memory, Mr. Blasier, I also pointed out that if someone with these Aris lights gloves which were truly naked leather were to wipe their brow and get oil on their finger, the oil would stay on the glove for a brief period of time, but gradually as the person wore the gloves or moved their hands back and forth, the oil would dissipate.
You didn't tell me that water spots like that--you told me that they might dissipate, but they also might stay there, didn't you?
Mr. Ormond, let's take this down until we find the right frame. Thank you. All right.
Now, I believe on your direct testimony, you testified that from this picture, you can identify the Brossier stitching on the fingers. Did I--am I correct in that?
I believe this one was used for the palm vent on the left hand was the primary purpose.
Okay. Now, would you agree that the picture on the monitor is a lot better than the big screen?
Do you see looking at the monitor what appears to be a bulge in the palm of that--Mr. Simpson's left hand under the glove?
You cannot see a raised area, appears to be a raised area right in the palm between the thumb and the finger?
There's a shadowy effect. It could be slightly raised. I don't know--I really don't know what it means.
And people use heat packs to put in the palms of their gloves to keep their hands warm, don't they?
Now, I take it, Mr. Rubin, you would agree that you can exclude the gloves in the West pictures as being the evidence gloves in this case?
Now, I think your testimony was that you can read reading on whatever this is in the picture?
I can see that there is something on it. It appears to be printing. The tag, what I stated was, is in the shape of the Aris Ross patch label tag. It appears to be beige in color. It appears to have some kind of burgundy printing on it, which is the same as what was used on all Aris tags.
Now, looking at the Guidera picture again--can you see it from there--you indicated on direct, did you not, that you thought you could identify the Brossier stitching on the fingers in that picture; did you not?
On the left hand on the top ridge of the finger is a very fine ridge, and that would be the only spot that I could detect it from that glove.
Your Honor, could we have one of your little arrows or--may I put a stick-um on this? I'll put it right above here (Indicating).
You're talking about the first finger where you see a ridge that you can identify as the Brossier stitch?
At--no. At the end of the finger, there's a very fine ridge, fine line which appears to be similar to a Brossier stitch.
Okay. And can you see a ridge there that enables you to identify that that's 22 stitches per inch?
Now, you indicated before that you were able--in your mind, you were able to make a positive identification of that style glove from that picture alone; did you not?
I didn't say that. What I said was, the elements that I could see were part of the element that make up style 70263; and, once again, there are no elements that lead me anywhere else.
Is it your testimony that a Brossier stitch is the only stitch that would look like that in that picture, in the Guidera picture?
Any other whip stitch would look similar. But someone like myself or someone who made a lot of Brossier sewn gloves or was very cognizant of what a Brossier sewn stitch looked like, it would look slightly different.
Is it accurate that you cannot offer any opinion at all as to the shades of the colors of the gloves in the pictures, the brown gloves vis-à-vis the evidence gloves?
I can make no attempt whatsoever to determine that the photographs as far as colorations, due to the fact that in my own experience, in making packaging as well as all the advertising that we did with various stores, that we never really were able to get the color of the gloves correctly in print, packaging, et cetera--I wouldn't make any conclusion regarding color in these photos.
Now, in this particular style, Aris actually had two different kinds of brown, correct?
And how about the--did you see any pictures--well, let me ask you this. Can you tell whether the pictures that you saw that you testified about are brown or mink?
They're all within the brown family, but no two pictures are alike from any of the photographers.
So from the brown pictures in the photographs, you can't say that they are the same shade or the same--necessarily the same color as the evidence gloves; is that correct?
To my best recollection, the color mink was so reddish and lighter in color that it would not be--in any of the photos would they be mink. These photos all reflect brown gloves that I've been shown.
Do you remember when they were asking you that you had the--one of the Renken pictures, that's the umbrella pictures?
Do you remember saying, "I'm not quite sure whether they are really what was called mink or dark brown, but they are definitely a shade of brown"?
So when you were looking at these pictures on August 31st, you weren't sure whether they were mink or brown, were you?
When you were looking at the Renken pictures, you had them on your end of the phone, you were talking to the Prosecution on their end of the phone, you told them you couldn't tell whether that was brown or mink, correct?
Now you're coming here and your testimony--you're now saying can't be mink; is that right?
Well, the reason I'm saying that is because I actually called the photographer myself to ask him about the coloration, and he more or less led me toward the indication that his color was slight--could be slightly off.
You thought they might have been mink when you saw them before. It's the same picture, isn't it?
You testified on direct here today that in your opinion, the gloves in these pictures are a snug fit on Mr. Simpson?
I ask you to look again at the Guidera picture. Would you agree that the leather seems to be bunched up around the fingers?
On the right hand in that particular picture, his hand is arched slightly backward, and that's the effect you would get on a leather glove. On the left hand, it appears to be more like a normal snug fit.
Would you agree that between the Guidera picture and the Renken picture three years earlier, the gloves appear to be bigger in the Guidera picture on Mr. Simpson's hands?
You're not willing to make any kind of assessment from looking at the photographs on that point?
It appears that in the Renken picture, Mr. Simpson has his hand a little farther around the microphone, his knuckles are a little bit over, little more to the left of the photos. It would be difficult to say that I could tell the difference between the exact fit between the two photos.
Isn't it your opinion that the gloves in the pictures that you've been shown in this case are either a regular extra large that fit Mr. Simpson or an oversized extra large?
There are no pictures where the gloves appear to be too small for him. Would you agree with that?
The only thing that you see in the pictures regarding small is on the shortness where he wears the gloves. But I don't see anything in the finger area that indicates they're too small or around the back of the palm.
This is 372-B. Actually, let me use 372--I'm trying to figure out which one's better. Let me try 372-B.
And can you tell from that receipt, let's assume they were gloves, what color they are?
There were I think you testified a thousand dozen or 12,000 pairs of gloves that were ordered by Bloomingdales for this particular season, correct?
And you had been producing those gloves with those same characteristics for 10 years?
Now, I think you indicated when you testified before that they started slow and then increased to a thousand dozen a year for a period of time. Is it fair to say that a rough estimate of the number of these gloves sold to Bloomingdales during that period of time was 40-, 50,000 pair?
No. No. I would say, if I had to speculate, that the quantity was more in the range of around 2500 dozen for an eight-year period with the bulk of it being in the last two.
That was what was originally contracted for. I'm not sure if they took them all in for sale.
I think it's closer to 30-, 35,000 pair totally from the time they started buying them until the time I left in 1990.
So would it be fair to say that there were 20 different combinations of that style number that you could get?
So 20 different possibilities that someone could purchase if they bought those gloves?
And you had no way of knowing whether these are receipts for that one out of 20 or something in the 19 out of 20, correct?
So if you accept that the receipt is accurate, these aren't for Aris Isotoner leather lights, are they?
I'll give you a chance to explain it, but the question is, if you look at the receipt and look at the numbers, that's something other than Aris leather lights, correct?
I actually can, but no one else except the buyer and myself could because the receipt states the manufacturer, the fact that it's leather and the price, and the only thing sold at Bloomingdales that year at that price happened to be the Aris light style.
Upon review with the actual buyer of all the styles that were sold to Bloomingdales by Aris that year, all the gloves retailed at different price points.
Did you hear Miss Vemich's testimony about whether there were other gloves on sale for that price?
In order to assume that that receipt is for Aris leather lights, you have to assume that some mistake was made, correct?
And you have to assume that what should have been on there was something other than what was put on there?
You cannot say, can you, Mr. Rubin, that whatever this receipt is for is the evidence gloves in this case, correct?
You cannot say that whatever is in that receipt is in any of these pictures, can you?
You have no information about the habits of Nicole Brown Simpson with respect to buying gloves for other people, do you?
You cannot say, can you, Mr. Rubin, that the gloves in the pictures that you've seen are pictures of the gloves in evidence, can you?
I can only state that they are the same style and color. I cannot state that they are the same pair.
So you're stating unequivocally this is cashmere because of the lighting in this photograph?
It appears to be a darker shade of brown than I'm used to seeing in a combination wool and cashmere blend, and for sure, it is not a wool blend.
I'm only comparing the shade to the shell of the glove. If we're going on the basis that the glove is black, I'm comparing the shading of the lining to the glove.
You have made no effort other than contacting two glove companies to find out if there are other gloves out there that have the same characteristics as these Aris leather lights, have you?
I have not contacted--I don't know--let me just say this. I do not know of any other people to call other than the two largest competitors to Aris.
You don't know how to find all of these hundred or so other glove companies around the world?
I really do not know where they are. I would go to Milan, I would go to Naples and I would start to find out where all those companies are, but I'm not going to do that on my own.
Thank you, your Honor. May I put 372-A on the elmo, your Honor?
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DARDEN
Let's focus on the right-hand side of the--looking at your monitor, sir, do you see where it indicates "Muffler," indicates that a muffler was purchased at Bloomingdales on December 18, 1990?
You don't know whether or not Nicole Brown purchased the Defendant a muffler and two pairs of gloves on December 18, 1990 at Bloomingdales, do you?
When you first saw the photographs that you were shown and those photographs that were sent to you, you looked at those photographs under a magnifying glass; is that correct?
I basically just wanted to find out how accurate his color was. I think it varied because the gloves were like a medium brown. They weren't as light as what mink was. But then again, if it was really mink in the picture and his color was dark, they could have been mink. But basically he indicated that he could be absolutely off. So I just ignored it plus or minus.
And this is information you wanted to have so you could make sure that you provided this jury with the most accurate testimony that you could?
Were you interested in providing this jury with the most accurate testimony that you could?
Would you agree that the best test to determine whether or not the gloves in the photographs are mink or brown is to have the jury take a look at those photographs and compare them to the crime scene gloves and the new gloves tried on by the Defendant?
At this point in time, the crime scene gloves are almost unrecognizable as far as color, size, texture. It would be very difficult to compare them. However, newer gloves or less used gloves, I think it would be important that the jury see the stitching up close on the gloves.
Let me show you what's been marked 401, one of the newer gloves that the Defendant tried on. What color is that glove?
Can we have the jury take a look at 401 as well as one of the Renken photographs to compare the color?
All right. And you want the jury to look at the photograph and compare the brown glove?
All right. After we complete the view and examination by the jury, we'll take a brief recess. Mr. Darden.
As soon as the jury completes their examination, comparison of the photograph and 401, we'll take our mid-afternoon recess.
Your Honor, while we are doing that, Mr. Fairtlough has a correct label. May we--thank you.
All right. Mr. Darden, would you collect those items from Deputy Long, please. No. I'm just asking you to collect the items from Deputy Long. All right. Ladies and gentlemen, we're going to take our mid-afternoon recess. Remember all my admonitions to you. Mr. Rubin, you may step down. You're ordered to come back in 15 minutes.
Maybe I can make it to the victory party!!
At your convenience, could you obtain business cards from all the members of your staff as I want to make one, only one piece for my office as memorabilia of my experience. Please include Mr. Hodgman and Miss Clark.
From this picture, I can't see anything.
I'm not quite sure whether they are really what was called mink or dark brown, but they are definitely a shade of brown.
Yes.