All right. Back on the record. As of tomorrow morning at 8:30, I need the police reports regarding the recovery of item--
Let me see them so I can read it tonight and you will produce that item in Court tomorrow morning?
Okay. Any exhibits that we need to exchange, look at, to pass on? If you recall the Court's order, no new exhibits until I have seen it the night before, et cetera, et cetera.
Well, it appears that there are a number of things in the exhibits that I just got this afternoon that are objected to. I don't want to go through it in detail because Mr. Matheson is here and the Court has said that I can't discuss it with him.
All right. Mr. Matheson, do you need--do you need Mr. Matheson any more this afternoon?
As to the Court's order that we not show or discuss the materials to the witness, Mr. Matheson, I would also like the Court to perhaps revisit that in light of what the materials are, because many of them do not at all appear to be impeachment, they are not impeachment, they are just things that the Defense wants to ask him about. And some of them it is very difficult to figure out exactly what they mean.
They don't have numbers on them, so I will take them in that--the order which I was handed them. One of them appears to be a block type diagram showing the electrophoresis plates on items 84-A and B. I can't tell exactly what this is supposed to be, whether--this is the full size or this is a board?
No, those are what are called power point slides that are projected over the computer system. There are six of those per page. Actually each one takes up the whole screen. Those are scanned pictures that we have been provided by the Prosecution for the electrophoretograms for the fingernails and show other items.
There is also a blocked diagram as well, and I can't really read those electrophoretograms. They may be, as counsel says I'm sure they are pictures of what we already provided, but I can't see that based on what I have been handed.
All right. Do we have those available--does Mr. Harris have those available on his computer?
I have them on my computer. My screen is a little small, but I would be happy to bring it back in chambers and show everybody.
Well, perhaps we need to do that because I would like to verify that, but in addition, the diagram also contains what appear to be some block diagrams. This would require Mr. Matheson to take a close look at it in order to compare it to the actual electrophoretogram to see whether the blocked diagram is more or less accurate, so I don't see any reason that that would have to be done on the witness stand. And I really can't address this in further detail myself because I don't have the level of expertise that is necessary to figure out exactly what is going on here in the block diagrams.
All right. What else is there besides the diagrams and the photographs of the electrophoretic plates?
That is a full description of it and the issues that pertain to that item, as I understand it, but understand that I have never asked Mr. Matheson about the block diagram.
It looks like there are two photographs at the top and four diagrams underneath it.
Well, I'm dealing with the EAP ones first and then some of them deal with a different phase of block diagrams. It says, "When BA degrades bands disappear from top down." My understanding that that is not true based upon my own reading of the scientific literature and my discussions with Mr. Matheson. And then there are some charts here that says that a degraded BA only has one B band as opposed to two B bands, and I'm only aware of a footnote in one article that somewhat supports this view. But this is the kind of thing again where in order to be able to intelligently answer this issue Mr. Matheson might want to go back and look at that one footnote and also some of the other articles and also determine whether or not these block diagrams are correct.
I will suggest--I will give Mr. Matheson every article that I intend to refer to. I will give that to you now so that he can refer to them for tomorrow.
What he is suggesting may not be scientifically correct, and I would object to the Defense putting something up on the screen for which there will never be my foundation laid, not through Mr. Matheson or any Defense expert.
Well, counsel is offering to give this to you at this point. What is the identity of the articles, Mr. Blasier?
These are all articles on EAP systems. Do you want me to identify them on the record?
One is Dr. George Sensabaugh. The title is "The utilization of polymorphic enzymes in forensic science." There is a second article by Dr. Sensabaugh. "Isoenzymes in forensic science." There is an article by Brian Wraxall and Elizabeth Emes, e-m-e-s, "Erythrocite acid phosphatase in blood stains." There is a technical note by D.V. Yeshion, y-e-s-h-I-o-n, titled "Thermal degradation of erythrocyte acid phosphatase isoenzymes in case sample."
And finally, I believe, is an article by Jill Luffman and Harry Harris titled "A comparison of some properties of human red cell acid phosphatase in different phenotypes."
All right. All right. Mr. Blasier, what else besides the photographs and the block charts? What else--what other exhibits are you going to be using?
I had one other series of charts, or I'm sorry, series of slides to demonstrate how many swatches you can make from a milliliter of blood and the third one is--
I'm just asking, since Mr. Blasier knows what they are and you don't appear to know precisely what they are because of what you have, I thought it would be more precise for me to ask Mr. Blasier what they are.
And the third one is some slides that I wish to go through with Mr. Matheson on security at SID. It has a couple of pictures that I think have already been introduced.
I also may be using some of the boards that were used in the opening statement. I probably will be, but they have seen those certainly.
Okay. Your. Honor, did the Court want me to continue with the EAP--well, I mean, basically the overriding objection to all of the EAP type slides is that in order to show these he is going to have to have some foundation for it, and if no one has talked to Mr. Matheson about this to determine whether he is going to support it and there is no Defense witness obviously that is going to testify in the People's case to support it, then these should never come in. And many of them do contain statements that appear to be argumentative, that appear to be inconsistent with my understanding of the scientific literature and also what Mr. Matheson's views are.
Well, that is a generic objection that relates to all of the EAP materials. And then I had specific objections on the first one which I described as being the one with the electrophoretogram photographs. I have an objection to the second diagram that says, "When a BA degrades bands disappear from the top down" as not reflecting my understanding of the way it works and as being argumentative. The second diagram is similar to that. It seems to be an illustration of the principle--excuse me--the third diagram appears to be an illustration of the principle in the second diagram.
All right. Let's do this, counsel. I have a meeting at 5:30 I have to attend. I'm going to order all counsel who are involved in this, Mr. Goldberg and Mr. Blasier I'm, going to order you both to be here at eight o'clock tomorrow morning with Mr. Harris and let's fire these things up, let's look at them in real size and see what is there. All right. And Mr.--I assume, Mr. Goldberg, you have some experts assisting the Prosecution, other than Mr. Matheson, that you can consult with with regards to these items over the evening hour.
Well, we do, but unfortunately some of that * some of them may not be in town, so if we were to consult with one of our experts who is a serologist, that would be difficult to do between now and 8:00 A.M. the Court said?
8:00 A.M. all right. Then Mr. Harris, we will fire those up and well take a look at them and we will go through them one at a time.
Is the Prosecution still under orders not to discuss these or show these with Mr. Matheson?
Your Honor, in light of the fact--in fact, I want them to go over them with Mr. Matheson.
Yes. I supplied a shortened letter memorandum in response to the Prosecution's parody response and I have been dealing Mr. Harmon, that--with respect to his motion, all that we have are two declarations, one of which I have finally been able to track down from Dr. Reiters, who had been ill, that I have given to them, and I will file with the Court. It is one page, five paragraphs, and the other one I'm seeking, I know what substance is--Mr. Slafka who I think is the--we believe must be the individual who spoke with Agent Marks at this meeting in Seattle who is named in Mr. Harmon's response. My suggestion to him, and he is free to take it if he wants, is that there are conflicts, factual conflicts, and I don't particularly see the need, until he gets an opportunity to talk with these individuals and get declarations from them, if they want to settle the record to deal with it tomorrow. I know we have another day when Mr. Dean Uelmen is coming down, the 9th. In light of the Court's ruling this morning, with respect to consumption, you know, I have concerns about the issue, but I don't think it is of pressing need, given the way we are going to handle that, so that is just I think a friendly invitation to him to settle the record on paper and to try to keep it tight. He is free to accept it or not.
Well, you know, Judge, I think this is real curious. Remember when they filed this there was a big rush to get this solved. Remember that? I think they filed it on a Thursday and Mr. Neufeld got up and said this is really urgent, we need to get this resolved, so I spent the weekend filing the response. We filed on it that Tuesday morning and then it was set and then other things came up.
So the short answer is you decline the invitation and you are willing to go forward tomorrow?
Well, I just find it fascinating that these declarations just suddenly show up on the eve of the hearing and then one of them is lost somewhere in the stratosphere and the hearing has been set for tomorrow afternoon. You know, I want to get this black cloud off of my head that they have planted over there, but this is very typical, as I referred to in my response, to the way they operate, so--
We will take a brief recess at four o'clock tomorrow and then we will launch into half hour's worth of motions. All right. See you all tomorrow. And Mr. Blasier and Mr. Goldberg, eight o'clock tomorrow.
Gil Garcetti, District Attorney by: Marcia R. Clark, William W. Hodgman, Christopher A. Darden, Cheri A. Lewis, Rockne P. Harmon, George W. Clarke, Scott M. Gordon Lydia C. Bodin, Hank M. Goldberg, Alan Yochelson and Darrell S. Mavis, Brian R. Kelberg, and Kenneth E. Lynch, Deputies 18-000 Criminal Courts Building 210 West Temple Street Los Angeles, California 90012
Robert L. Shapiro, Esquire Sara L. Caplan, Esquire 2121 Avenue of the Stars 19th floor Los Angeles, California 90067 Johnnie L. Cochran, Jr., Esquire by: Carl E. Douglas, Esquire Shawn Snider Chapman, Esquire 4929 Wilshire Boulevard Suite 1010 Los Angeles, California 90010 Gerald F. Uelmen, Esquire Robert Kardashian, Esquire Alan Dershowitz, Esquire F. Lee Bailey, Esquire Barry Scheck, Esquire Peter Neufeld, Esquire Robert D. Blasier, Esquire William C. Thompson, Esquire
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I N D E X
For volume 137 pages 25236 - 25501
day date session page vol.
tuesday May 2, 1995 A.M. 25236 137 P.M. 25358 137
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ms. Clark-mc Mr. Hodgman-h Mr. Darden d Mr. Kahn-k Mr. Goldberg-gb Mr. Gordon-g Mr. Shapiro-s Mr. Cochran-c Mr. Douglas-cd Mr. Bailey-b Mr. Uelmen-u Mr. Scheck-bs Mr. Neufeld-n
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CHRONOLOGICAL INDEX of witnesses People's witnesses direct cross redirect recross vol.
matheson, Gregory 137 (Resumed)
24241gb (Resumed) 25365gb 25454bb
ALPHABETICAL INDEX of witnesses witnesses direct cross redirect recross vol.
matheson, Gregory 137 (Resumed) 24241gb (Resumed) 25365gb 25454bb
EXHIBITS
PEOPLE'S for in exhibit identification evidence page vol. Page vol.
210 - Posterboard 25237 137 entitled "Defense testing" with 8 photographs depicting the outside package and items 47, 50 and 78
211-A - Photograph of 25242 137 item no. 60
211-B - Photograph of 25242 137 item no. 59
211-C - Photograph of 25242 137 item no. 17
212 - 1-Page document 25246 137 entitled "Serology item description notes"
213 - 1-Page document 25264 137 entitled "Rockingham inside and adjacent"
214-A - Photograph of 25268 137 a sock with a ruler and various writing
214-B - Photograph of 25268 137 a sock with a ruler and various writing
215 - Posterboard 25304 137
216 - 2-Page document 25332 137 entitled "Analyzed evidence report" L-77 and L-78, dated June 28, 1994
217 - Posterboard 25353 137 entitled "Block diagram showing EAP phenotypes"
218 - 1-Page document 25378 137 page 3 of analyzed evidence report dated October 18, 1994
219 - 1-Page document 25383 137 entitled "Electrophoresis worksheet"
220 - Posterboard 25396 137 entitled "Nail clippings, scrapings - Nicole Brown"
221-A - Glass vial 25422 137 with substance
221-B - Glass vial 25422 137 with substance
222 - 1-Page document 25440 137 entitled "Serology description notes"
223 - Photograph of 25443 137 the bottom right shoe of victim Ronald Goldman with red markings and the initials "G.M."
I want to get this black cloud off of my head that they have planted over there, but this is very typical, as I referred to in my response, to the way they operate.
if no one has talked to Mr. Matheson about this to determine whether he is going to support it and there is no Defense witness obviously that is going to testify in the People's case to support it, then these should never come in.
My suggestion to him, and he is free to take it if he wants, is that there are conflicts, factual conflicts, and I don't particularly see the need, until he gets an opportunity to talk with these individuals and get declarations from them, if they want to settle the record to deal with it tomorrow.
All right. Mr. Matheson, why don't you excuse us.