📄 Sidebar: DNA sample projections — Thursday, May 18, 1995
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▲ Day 77 of 167

Sidebar: DNA sample projections

Date: Thursday, May 18, 1995 • Utterances: 23
During a bench sidebar in the civil trial, Barry Scheck attempted to elicit hypothetical testimony from a DNA expert projecting total DNA quantities in evidence samples based on swatch weights and an assumption of random material distribution — the same methodology used in a prior Griffen hearing. Prosecutor Rockne Harmon seized the moment to complain about lack of reciprocal discovery from the defense. Judge Ito ultimately sustained a foundational objection, ruling that random or uniform distribution of material on the swatches could not be assumed.
1 (The following proceedings were held at the bench:)
2 THE COURT:

What is the point here, Barry?

3 MR. SCHECK:

The point is that we--Cellmark has the data, the Prosecution has the data, and I ask you to take it subject to connection and that we will produce the weights that everybody was present for, okay? In order to get what this--to get out from this witness a projection of the total amount of DNA in each of these samples, by methods that he already described to this Court in a Griffen hearing, standard methods in the field for trying to project total weight of DNA, if you recall, we did that at the split hearing, exactly the same procedures when he was trying to project how much would be available for splits, et cetera.

4 THE COURT:

But part of the problem, though, is that you don't know the uniformity of the material on the swatches.

5 MR. SCHECK:

I understand that.

6 THE COURT:

That is our problem.

7 MR. SCHECK:

My point is that--that that is something that they can ask on cross-examination or he can qualify, but I think that for these purposes, particularly since that can't be measured, it is a very scientific assumption, and the way he did it in the Griffen hearing--and if you want I will lay the foundation--the way people in this field will do it is to make assumption of random distribution. If we make an assumption of random distribution, what would you project the amount to be? And then they can argue later that, well, it may have him been uneven, et cetera, maybe there is more.

8 (Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)
9 THE COURT:

Do we have somewhere a total extracted per item by all the labs involved?

10 MR. SCHECK:

Yes.

11 MR. HARMON:

You know, this raises an intriguing point that I know it is about time to burst the balloon on this, and that is reciprocal discovery. I am aware that these things have been reviewed in camera. Mr. Scheck says they are going to tie it up. They are going to present it. We have almost nothing from Defense experts in this case and I think it is about time for them to start giving it up rather than to tell you, which I'm sure they have in camera, that this would undermine or compromise their ability to effectively cross-examine and that is not--I don't know what he is talking about. I don't know everything about their case, but I think that is what is going on and it is time to call a halt to the proceedings and for somebody to start turning over their reciprocal discovery. I would like to know what the offer of proof is. I would like to know who the witness is and I would like to see the documentation for the assertion that he made a couple minutes ago. And unless and until that happens, I think the Court needs to draw a halt to this and turn this back into a fair proceeding where we are entitled to have what we should have had before the trial began, your Honor.

12 THE COURT:

What is the basis of your offer that we know what the total extraction is?

13 MR. SCHECK:

The way that this hypothetical is proceeding is that we are--we know many swatches there are, they know how many swatches. The data comes from them. The weights--because I don't think there is any reciprocal discovery problem at all, just like the pictures, the stipulations, that is, these weights were done by Dr. Lee and Dr. Blake and Cellmark together. Everybody put the swatches on the scale--

14 THE COURT:

Uh-huh.

15 MR. SCHECK:

--and measured them. Each wrote down what weight, and that is all I'm working with, the number of milligrams in the swatches, the number of swatches.

16 THE COURT:

But I thought you told me that this was a compilation somewhere of the total extractions from all these items.

17 MR. SCHECK:

Yeah, exists in the notes from Cellmark and from DOJ is how much they extracted from--in other words, he has his slot-blot calculations.

18 THE COURT:

Uh-huh.

19 MR. SCHECK:

So what we are doing in these hypotheticals and what he is agreeing to is in the same method that was applied at the Griffen hearing, is that he is saying, if we assume random distribution and we look at the amount of weight of each swatch and the number of swatches, all right, and the weight--the percentage of weight is the simplest way to do it, and then we look at his DNA extraction and project the total DNA extraction, that is an estimate of how much human DNA was in each of these samples.

20 THE COURT:

Well, I'm not going to assume--I'm going to sustain the objection at this point because we can't assume a random or uniform distribution.

21 MR. SCHECK:

If I ask him a foundational question whether or not to that--

22 MR. HARMON:

While I did not object, I would like to move to strike the entire line of questioning. I didn't make a timely objection.

KEY QUOTE
23 THE COURT:

I'm going to sustain a foundational objection at this point because I don't think you can assume any uniform distribution.

KEY QUOTE

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (4)

Barry Scheck
If we make an assumption of random distribution, what would you project the amount to be? And then they can argue later that, well, it may have been uneven, et cetera, maybe there is more.
Scheck articulates the scientific basis for his hypothetical — a standard forensic assumption he claims was accepted in prior proceedings.
Rockne Harmon
We have almost nothing from Defense experts in this case and I think it is about time for them to start giving it up rather than to tell you, which I'm sure they have in camera, that this would undermine or compromise their ability to effectively cross-examine.
Harmon uses the sidebar as an opportunity to broadly challenge the defense's discovery compliance, accusing them of hiding expert materials behind in camera reviews.
Lance A. Ito
I'm going to sustain a foundational objection at this point because I don't think you can assume any uniform distribution.
The ruling shuts down Scheck's hypothetical line entirely — the assumption of random distribution is the lynchpin of the methodology and Ito won't accept it.
Rockne Harmon
While I did not object, I would like to move to strike the entire line of questioning. I didn't make a timely objection.
A candid admission of a missed objection, followed by an attempt to cure it retroactively — unusual procedural moment.

Evidence (2)

Informal
Swatch weight measurements recorded jointly by Dr. Lee, Dr. Blake, and Cellmark — milligrams per swatch used to project total DNA
discussed as basis for hypothetical calculations
Informal
DNA extraction data (slot-blot calculations) from Cellmark and DOJ labs
cited by Scheck as the source data underlying the projection methodology

Notable Exchanges (2)

Lance A. ItoBarry Scheck
Ito repeatedly presses Scheck on whether there is compiled total extraction data per item across all labs, while Scheck explains the swatch-weight projection methodology used at the Griffen hearing.
procedural, probing
Rockne HarmonLance A. Ito
Harmon launches an extended complaint about reciprocal discovery, alleging the defense has shared almost nothing from their experts while hiding behind in camera submissions. He asks the court to halt proceedings until discovery is turned over.
strategic, agitated

Objections

2 objections (2 sustained, 0 overruled)
Proceeding 6096 • 23 utterances
Criminal Trial
Department 103
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📂 MAY 18, 1995 📄 Sidebar: DNA sample projection
MAY 18, 1995 KRT DvH TD