📄 Direct examination of Gary Sims (part 2) — Thursday, May 18, 1995
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C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\MAY\18\DIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-GARY-SIM.DOC
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▲ Day 77 of 167

Direct examination of Gary Sims (part 2)

Witness: Gary Sims
Examiner: Rockne Harmon
Called by: Prosecution • Date: Thursday, May 18, 1995 • Utterances: 76
Gary Sims, DNA expert from the California Department of Justice, presents RFLP and PCR statistics matching Nicole Brown Simpson's blood to a stain cut from the sock found in OJ Simpson's bedroom. The testimony is highly technical, with Sims walking the jury through six-locus RFLP analysis yielding odds of 1 in 21 billion for Caucasians. Barry Scheck repeatedly objects to Harmon's attempts to discuss the additional five genetic markers not used in the formal calculations, with mixed results from Judge Ito.
1 THE COURT:

All right. Thank you, counsel. Proceed.

2 MR. HARMON:

Mr. Sims, do you recall the question I asked?

3 MR. SIMS:

Yes.

4 MR. HARMON:

Are you familiar with that study in the context that I described it in the question?

5 MR. SIMS:

Yes.

6 MR. HARMON:

Could we have the sock photo board and the sock result board? The photo board is 262-A and the result board is 262.

7 (Brief pause.)
8 THE COURT:

Mr. Fairtlough, is it possible to raise the second exhibit?

9 MR. FAIRTLOUGH:

A little bit, your Honor, but not much.

10 THE COURT:

All right. Why don't you raise it as high as you can.

11 MR. HARMON:

Mr. Sims, while we're waiting, we're just going to go in the order that the stains--the numerical order that they're listed there and initially discuss the significance of the 11-probe RFLP match that--on DOJ 42A-1, sock 13, the Greg Matheson cut-out stain. Okay?

12 MR. SIMS:

Okay.

13 MR. HARMON:

How did you approach your calculations to this 11-probe or 11-genetic marker match between Nicole Brown and the cut-out that Greg Matheson made from sock A?

14 MR. SIMS:

The approach that I used was to go to the bin tables, those are the tables that list the frequencies for these RFLP bins or alleles within the bins, and I made a determination based on six loci.

15 MR. HARMON:

Okay. And what significance--so when you say "six loci," you mean six probes?

16 MR. SIMS:

Six probes.

17 MR. HARMON:

Six genetic markers?

18 MR. SIMS:

Six genetic markers.

19 MR. HARMON:

What significance do those other five probes that you did not use in your calculations have in--giving the jury some appreciation for how common or rare this match is?

20 MR. SIMS:

Yes. The idea is that these additional systems are also highly polymorphic. They have great powers of exclusion. And so I looked at those additional loci to check the results of the sock against the reference sample.

21 MR. HARMON:

In normal English, could you tell us what "highly polymorphic" means?

22 MR. SIMS:

It means that--that if you were to take two individuals at random, there would be a very good likelihood that you would be able to separate them based on this type of analysis. Any one of those probes is very strong for that purpose.

23 MR. HARMON:

People are pretty different from one another?

KEY QUOTE
24 MR. SIMS:

Yes, they are.

25 MR. HARMON:

As you demonstrated on all of the autorads when it was easy to distinguish from among the three reference sources?

26 MR. SCHECK:

Leading, argumentative. Let's get to--

27 THE COURT:

Sustained.

28 MR. HARMON:

Could you--just the way we approached the other statistics, could you describe from among the three major population groups that you've used in your calculations the frequency estimate for those three groups and the match between Nicole Brown's reference blood and Greg Matheson's cut-out stain on the sock?

29 MR. SIMS:

Yes. For those--the six loci that I looked at, these are RFLP loci D1S7, D2S44, D4S139, D5S110, D10S28 and D17S79, the profile detected in stain 42-A(1) occurs in approximately 1 in 21 billion Caucasians, 1 in 41 billion African Americans and 1 in 7.7 billion Hispanics, again indicating that this profile is a rare event and pointing out that these are for unrelated individuals.

30 MR. HARMON:

Now, is there any way to express to the jury what impact those other probes that do--those other genetic markers that have not played a role in your calculations have on describing how common or rare the pattern of Nicole Brown's blood is when you look at it and see it in the sock?

31 MR. SCHECK:

Objection. Irrelevant.

32 THE COURT:

Sustained.

33 MR. HARMON:

Would you please relate to the jury in your opinion the impact on those numbers that you've just communicated to the jury in helping them evaluate how common or rare that pattern is?

34 MR. SCHECK:

Objection. Irrelevant.

35 THE COURT:

I'm going to sustain an objection to that question because I think the statistic itself speaks for itself, how common or rare.

KEY QUOTE
36 MR. HARMON:

Thank you, your Honor.

37 MR. HARMON:

Do each of those additional tests narrow down the possibilities?

38 MR. SIMS:

Certainly.

39 MR. SCHECK:

Your Honor, specific objection to "these probes," these--

40 THE COURT:

Which are we talking about, the six or the five?

41 MR. HARMON:

Do each--

42 THE COURT:

Sustained.

43 MR. HARMON:

I'll rephrase it. Thank you, your Honor.

44 THE COURT:

All right.

45 MR. HARMON:

Do each of the additional genetic markers that do not play a role in those calculations that you've just presented to the jury, do they have an impact on those calculations?

46 MR. SCHECK:

Objection. Irrelevant.

47 THE COURT:

Overruled.

48 MR. SIMS:

Yes, they do.

49 MR. HARMON:

And just in general terms, could you explain that to the jury?

50 MR. SIMS:

Well, as I started to say earlier, these tests are very good at distinguishing between individuals. And so what we're looking at is more and more genetic markers, more and more places on the chromosomes where we see whether or not a given stain and a given reference sample match. And the more of those that one looks at, the rarer the profile must become.

51 MR. HARMON:

And--okay. In addition to those 11 genetic markers, your laboratory performed PCR tests on that same stain; is that right?

52 MR. SIMS:

Yes.

53 MR. HARMON:

And the results you've already described, DQ-Alpha, 1.1, 1.1, D1S80, 18?

54 MR. SIMS:

Yes.

55 MR. HARMON:

What I would like you--have you been provided data based on Cellmark's analysis of extracted DNA from the very same stain that you extracted which demonstrates the commonness or uncommonness of the PCR results in this case?

56 MR. SIMS:

Yes.

57 MR. HARMON:

And in--have you also considered the population data that you have for the PCR markers that your laboratory used in testing the exact same DNA in this case?

58 MR. SIMS:

Yes.

59 MR. HARMON:

Okay. Is it possible for an expert to calculate the combined frequency of the poly-marker inclusion, those five genetic markers, the DQ-Alpha inclusion by Cellmark, your DQ-Alpha inclusion and your D1S80 inclusion so that you could describe to the jury the commonness or rarity of the match between those PCR markers and this stain that Greg Matheson cut out from that sock?

60 MR. SIMS:

Yes.

61 MR. HARMON:

Have you done that?

62 MR. SIMS:

Yes, I have.

63 MR. HARMON:

Okay. Would you please then describe to the jury in the same way that we have--I forgot to have you write up the RFLP results. So when we do the PCR results, let's do the RFLP statistics too. Could you please express to the jury the calculation for the frequencies between--and the PCR markers matches between Cellmark and the Department of Justice?

64 MR. SIMS:

Yes. Would you like me to step to the board?

65 MR. HARMON:

If you'd just describe that, and then I'll ask you to write in both of those slots there. We've got a patch for one of those boards.

66 THE COURT:

Mr. Harmon, let me ask a clarification question.

67 MR. HARMON:

Sure.

68 THE COURT:

You mentioned DQ-Alpha twice--

69 MR. HARMON:

Right. Well, I was--

70 THE COURT:

--for both labs. I assume we're only calculating this once.

71 MR. HARMON:

That's correct. I was going to ask that after we got it up there, and I'll clarify that in a moment if I could.

72 THE COURT:

All right.

73 MR. HARMON:

Do you want to go up there and write up--why don't you write out the RFLP if there's enough room for that. And I've got a cover for the PCR.

74 (The witness complies.)
75 MR. SCHECK:

Your Honor, while we're doing that, can we approach for just a second on a related issue?

76 THE COURT:

Yeah, with the court reporter, please.

Temperature

procedural

Key Quotes (4)

Gary Sims
the profile detected in stain 42-A(1) occurs in approximately 1 in 21 billion Caucasians, 1 in 41 billion African Americans and 1 in 7.7 billion Hispanics, again indicating that this profile is a rare event
The core statistic tying Nicole Brown's blood to the sock stain — numbers that dwarf the world's population, making the match effectively conclusive.
Rockne Harmon
People are pretty different from one another?
Harmon's plain-English gloss on 'highly polymorphic' — immediately sustained as leading, showing his effort to simplify DNA science for the jury.
Lance A. Ito
I'm going to sustain an objection to that question because I think the statistic itself speaks for itself, how common or rare.
Ito cuts off Harmon's attempt to amplify the already-staggering statistics, signaling the court's view that the numbers need no embellishment.
Gary Sims
the more of those that one looks at, the rarer the profile must become.
Sims gets the substance of the excluded testimony in anyway — each additional genetic marker compounds the rarity of the match.

Evidence (3)

People's 262-A
Sock photo board
displayed to jury during testimony
People's 262
Sock result board (DNA results)
displayed to jury during testimony
DOJ 42A-1 (Sock 13)
Greg Matheson's cut-out stain from sock A, tested against Nicole Brown's reference blood
discussed; RFLP and PCR statistics presented

Notable Exchanges (2)

Rockne HarmonBarry ScheckLance A. Ito
Harmon repeatedly tries to get Sims to describe the additional five probes' impact on the rarity statistics; Scheck objects as irrelevant each time. Ito sustains most objections but ultimately allows Sims to explain in general terms that more markers make the profile rarer.
strategic
Lance A. ItoRockne Harmon
Ito interrupts to clarify that DQ-Alpha was mentioned twice (once for Cellmark, once for DOJ) and confirms it should only be counted once in combined calculations. Harmon agrees and defers to the judge.
procedural

Witness Demeanor

(The witness complies.) — Sims goes to the board to write up RFLP statistics
(Brief pause.) — while sock photo and result boards are positioned

Objections

5 objections (4 sustained, 1 overruled)
Proceeding 6102 • 76 utterances • Prosecution witness
Criminal Trial
Department 103
⚖️ Start
📂 MAY 18, 1995 📄 Direct examination of Gary Sim
MAY 18, 1995 KRT DvH TD