📄 Cross-examination of Dr. Robin Cotton — Wednesday, May 10, 1995
Address:
C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\MAY\10\CROSS-EXAMINATION-OF-DR-ROBIN-.DOC
TRIAL
▲ Day 71 of 167

Cross-examination of Dr. Robin Cotton

Witness: Dr. Robin Cotton
Examiner: Peter Neufeld
Called by: Prosecution • Date: Wednesday, May 10, 1995 • Utterances: 96
Defense attorney Peter Neufeld cross-examines Cellmark's Dr. Robin Cotton on her methodology for analyzing mixed DNA stains, specifically challenging her use of band intensity differences to disaggregate the mixture into individual contributor profiles. Neufeld demonstrates that intensity variation exists even within single-source samples (item 52), undermining Cotton's basis for assigning discrete genotype frequencies rather than following the NRC report's aggregation method. Cotton concedes she is unaware of any scientific literature contradicting the NRC approach, and agrees that aggregating genotype frequencies is appropriate for PCR profiles.
1 THE COURT:

Mr. Neufeld, any questions?

2 MR. NEUFELD:

One moment, your Honor.

3 (Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)
4 MR. NEUFELD:

Do you have the original?

5 (Discussion held off the record between Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)
6 MR. NEUFELD:

Dr. Cotton, as a rule at Cellmark diagnostics when you receive samples to do DNA testing you are limiting your assessment of the evidence to the--to the DNA itself; is that correct?

7 DR. COTTON:

Generally, yes.

8 MR. NEUFELD:

And you are there to basically to do two things: One, determine whether bands are present, or dots, in the case of PCR typing, and two, if they are present, to estimate the frequency or rareness of that particular pattern; is that correct?

9 DR. COTTON:

That's the normal progress of the analysis, yes.

10 MR. NEUFELD:

Well, I mean you are not supposed to have any of the biases or other influences that, say, detectives working on the case would have? You are simply looking at it in a purely scientific fashion; isn't that right?

11 DR. COTTON:

We are giving our estimation of what the data says.

12 MR. NEUFELD:

And when you look at the--and when you give your estimation of what the data says, you are to do that in a way that is not biased or influenced by other non-scientific evidence in the case; isn't that right?

13 THE COURT:

Mr. Neufeld, this is not helpful to me.

14 MR. NEUFELD:

All right. Well, your Honor, I believe actually it will be helpful to you because it will give you a context in which to understand her impression of the autorad.

15 THE COURT:

Counsel, I understand completely the context. I want to know why this is your motion to require the Prosecution to provide statistical significance, calculations for the mixtures. That is all I'm interested in.

16 MR. NEUFELD:

All right. Can you please put up--light up the cocktail.

17 (Brief pause.)
18 MR. NEUFELD:

Can you see it from where you are?

19 DR. COTTON:

I would actually rather step down there, if you don't mind.

20 MR. NEUFELD:

Please do.

21 (Witness complies.)
22 MR. NEUFELD:

Now, one of the things that you were talking about before under Mr. Clark's questioning was the disparity in the intensity of certain bands as an indication of possible different sources; is that correct?

23 DR. COTTON:

Yes.

24 MR. NEUFELD:

All right. Would you agree, when you look at the bands, first of all, on item 78, that if we count from the top there is a--it is difficult do see on the overhead, your Honor, but beneath the first band are there two bands very, very close together?

25 DR. COTTON:

Yes.

26 MR. NEUFELD:

That appear almost as--on the overhead as a single large blob, so to speak?

27 DR. COTTON:

I don't think it looks like a single large blob. It looks like a--do you want me to use the pointer thing?

28 MR. NEUFELD:

Please do. That will be great. Or at least point out the two bands that I'm referring to.

29 (Brief pause.)
30 DR. COTTON:

Okay. Now, are you talking about these two right here?

31 MR. NEUFELD:

That's right.

32 DR. COTTON:

Okay. I see two bands there.

33 MR. NEUFELD:

All right.

34 DR. COTTON:

And the upper one is less intense than the lower one and a little bit less intense than the very top one.

35 MR. NEUFELD:

Okay. Did you make a determination as to that--the less intense band of the two bands that are very close together, whether that is consistent--consistent with bands for Nicole Brown Simpson or for Ronald Goldman?

36 DR. COTTON:

I believe on the--using the individual probes following the cocktail, that this band is consistent with Nicole Brown.

37 MR. NEUFELD:

Okay. And, umm, would you agree that that light band is considerably less intense than the band directly beneath it?

38 DR. COTTON:

Yes.

39 MR. NEUFELD:

And the band directly beneath it is consistent with Ron Goldman, is it not?

40 DR. COTTON:

No, I don't think so. We are talking about this darker one right here, (Indicating).

41 MR. NEUFELD:

Yes. Go across to the column which has Ronald Goldman's pattern in it.

42 DR. COTTON:

Yes.

43 MR. NEUFELD:

Do you see a band in approximately the same location?

44 DR. COTTON:

Yes, I do.

45 MR. NEUFELD:

Okay. Now, would you agree that there is differing intensity between the band that you just described as being above that band in item 78's lane and some of the other bands that you attribute to Nicole Brown Simpson or you say are consistent with Nicole Brown Simpson?

46 DR. COTTON:

Yes.

47 MR. NEUFELD:

Okay. So in other words, even within the same individual, you can observe on this lane bands of differing intensities; isn't that correct?

48 DR. COTTON:

Yes, that's right.

49 MR. NEUFELD:

And again, if you go down to the next band, that is a band that you believe was consistent or in the same position as bands in the Nicole Brown Simpson's lane?

50 DR. COTTON:

Yes.

51 MR. NEUFELD:

And then you go down one more and that is another band that you believe is consistent with Nicole Brown Simpson?

52 DR. COTTON:

Yes.

53 (Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)
54 MR. NEUFELD:

New and would you agree that that band that is attributable to Nicole Brown Simpson or say is Nicole Brown Simpson also has a differing intensity other than bands that you say are consistent with her profile?

55 DR. COTTON:

It looks slightly different up here, (Indicating). If you want me to give you the best judgment, I might want to look at it here on the light box for just a second.

56 MR. NEUFELD:

Please do.

57 DR. COTTON:

I would be happy to look at the copy as opposed to taking the original off the thing.

58 (Brief pause.)
59 MR. NEUFELD:

And so now that you have had a chance to look at it on the light box, Dr. Cotton, would you agree that that other band which I just called your attention to which you say is consistent with bands coming from Nicole Brown Simpson, that that, too, is less intense than bands above and beneath it which you will say are consistent with Nicole Brown Simpson?

60 DR. COTTON:

Yes, slightly.

61 MR. NEUFELD:

Okay. And now also while you are there, could you take a look at the lane next to it, item 52.

62 DR. COTTON:

Yes.

63 MR. NEUFELD:

Do you see that? All right. And a moment ago you said that one of the--

64 THE COURT:

Refresh my recollection. What is item 52?

65 MR. NEUFELD:

Item 52 is one of the drops at Bundy. In fact, it is the drop that is closest to the alleyway, your Honor.

66 THE COURT:

Okay.

67 MR. NEUFELD:

That is what they say it is anyway.

68 THE COURT:

All right.

69 MR. NEUFELD:

All right.

70 MR. NEUFELD:

And item 52 and the banding pattern you believe represents DNA donated by one person; is that correct?

71 DR. COTTON:

Yes.

72 MR. NEUFELD:

And would you agree that even though you say it is from one person, that as far as band intensity goes, that the bands--that the three bands--the first three bands at the top are considerably fainter than the three lower bands?

73 THE COURT:

Mr. Neufeld, what has this got to do with the mixture?

74 MR. NEUFELD:

What it has to do with the mixture is one of the criteria that this witness was using to try and disaggregate the picture and give therefore a frequency for a complete profile as opposed to using the NRC method of aggregating those frequencies, was her opinion that you can rely on the fact that there is a differing intensity in the bands.

75 THE COURT:

All right.

76 MR. NEUFELD:

So I am just--

77 THE COURT:

That is pretty clear, isn't it? That is what she said.

78 MR. NEUFELD:

She said it, but what I'm saying is that the evidence here belies that position as a criteria for making that distinction in a scientific fashion. That is the point.

KEY QUOTE
79 THE COURT:

All right. Anything else from this witness?

80 MR. NEUFELD:

Yes.

81 MR. NEUFELD:

Now, you said that you are--you have read the NRC report many, many times?

82 DR. COTTON:

I have, but--

83 MR. NEUFELD:

Okay.

84 DR. COTTON:

I did not read it last night.

85 MR. NEUFELD:

All right. Well, there is a sentence in the NRC report which says that: "if a suspect's"--and I quote--"if a suspect's pattern is found within the mixed pattern, the appropriate frequency to assign such a match is the sum of the frequencies of automatic genotypes that are contained within the mixed pattern," unquote. All right?

86 DR. COTTON:

Yes.

87 MR. NEUFELD:

No. 1, have you ever seen any scientific publication which contradicted that approach to aggregating genotypes for mixed stains?

88 DR. COTTON:

I don't recall seeing a specific scientific publication that has addressed that issue, other than the NRC report.

KEY QUOTE
89 MR. NEUFELD:

So I take it then your answer is there is no scientific literature that you are aware of that would contradict--

90 DR. COTTON:

That I am aware of.

91 MR. NEUFELD:

Okay. One moment, your Honor.

92 (Brief pause.)
93 (Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)
94 MR. NEUFELD:

And one last thing, Dr. Cotton. Just so I'm clear on this, by your own remarks in response to Mr. Clarke's questions, what you are saying is that as to the PCR profiles, though, you would agree that the appropriate approach is to aggregate those genotype frequencies?

95 DR. COTTON:

If one is going to put a number associated with that data, then that would be the appropriate approach.

KEY QUOTE
96 MR. NEUFELD:

Okay. By the way--no, nothing else at this point.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (4)

Peter Neufeld
I am just--she said it, but what I'm saying is that the evidence here belies that position as a criteria for making that distinction in a scientific fashion. That is the point.
Neufeld's core argument: Cotton's band-intensity criterion for disaggregating the mixture is scientifically unsupported given the variability he has just demonstrated.
Dr. Robin Cotton
I don't recall seeing a specific scientific publication that has addressed that issue, other than the NRC report.
Cotton admits there is no scientific literature contradicting the NRC's aggregation method, effectively conceding the methodological ground to Neufeld.
Dr. Robin Cotton
If one is going to put a number associated with that data, then that would be the appropriate approach.
Cotton agrees that aggregating genotype frequencies (the NRC method) is appropriate for PCR profiles, a key concession for the defense's challenge to prosecution statistics.
Lance A. Ito
I want to know why this is your motion to require the Prosecution to provide statistical significance, calculations for the mixtures. That is all I'm interested in.
Ito clarifies the narrow procedural purpose of this examination, revealing that the cross is in service of a defense motion, not full trial testimony.

Evidence (4)

Informal
Autorad 'cocktail' — multi-probe RFLP gel image showing banding patterns from mixed stain item 78
discussed; Cotton steps down to examine it on the light box
Informal
Item 78 — mixed stain with bands attributed to Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman
discussed; Neufeld challenges Cotton's band intensity analysis as a disaggregation criterion
Informal
Item 52 — blood drop at Bundy, described as the drop closest to the alleyway; single-source profile
discussed; Neufeld uses its intra-lane intensity variation to undermine Cotton's methodology
Informal
NRC (National Research Council) report on DNA forensics, specifically the recommendation to aggregate genotype frequencies for mixed stains
quoted by Neufeld; Cotton acknowledges no contradicting scientific literature exists

Notable Exchanges (3)

Peter NeufeldLance A. Ito
Ito repeatedly interrupts Neufeld's line of questioning to demand relevance to the motion at issue (compelling prosecution to provide mixture statistics). Neufeld explains his theory each time and is allowed to continue.
tense; judicial impatience is evident but Neufeld successfully defends his approach
Peter NeufeldDr. Robin Cotton
Neufeld walks Cotton through item 52's lane band-by-band, establishing that a concededly single-source sample also shows significant intensity variation among its bands — directly rebutting her criterion for disaggregating the item 78 mixture.
strategic; methodical deconstruction of prosecution's statistical methodology
Peter NeufeldDr. Robin Cotton
Neufeld quotes the NRC report verbatim on mixture frequency calculation and asks Cotton whether any scientific publication contradicts it. She cannot name one.
revealing; Cotton's concession is the clearest win of the cross

Light Moments (2)

Dr. Robin Cotton
Cotton declines to call the overlapping bands a 'single large blob,' gently correcting Neufeld's colloquial description while offering to use the pointer instead.
Dr. Robin Cotton
Cotton volunteers she would rather look at a copy than take the original autorad off the light box, showing protective instinct toward the evidence.

Credibility Attacks (2)

⚔ Dr. Robin Cotton
methodological impeachment via her own scientific standard
Neufeld uses a single-source sample (item 52) to show that band intensity variation — Cotton's criterion for disaggregating the item 78 mixture into individual contributor profiles — occurs naturally within single-source lanes, making it scientifically unreliable as a disaggregation tool.
⚔ Dr. Robin Cotton
authoritative text confrontation
Neufeld quotes the NRC report's recommendation for aggregating mixture genotype frequencies and establishes that Cotton is unaware of any peer-reviewed literature contradicting it, undermining her deviation from that standard.

Witness Demeanor

(Witness steps down from stand to examine autorad at the display area.)
(Witness uses pointer to indicate specific bands on the autorad.)
(Witness examines autorad on the light box before answering.)

Objections

None recorded
Proceeding 5991 • 96 utterances • Prosecution witness
Criminal Trial
Department 103
⚖️ Start
📂 MAY 10, 1995 📄 Cross-examination of Dr. Robin
MAY 10, 1995 KRT DvH TD