📄 Sidebar: blood evidence questions — Tuesday, March 7, 1995
Address:
C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\MAR\7\SIDEBAR-BLOOD-EVIDENCE-QUESTIO.DOC
TRIAL
▲ Day 32 of 167

Sidebar: blood evidence questions

Examiner: Examiner
Date: Tuesday, March 7, 1995 • Utterances: 73
Judge Ito held a sidebar to address whether Marcia Clark could ask Detective Lange about blood evidence results he was aware of at the time of filing (June 17). Clark argued the testimony was admissible for a non-hearsay purpose — the detective's state of mind — to rebut Cochran's 'rush to judgment' theory. Ito overruled the hearsay objection, allowing the testimony with a limiting instruction that it goes only to state of mind.
1 Q:

AND THE REPORTS THAT YOU REVIEWED --

2 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. COUNSEL, LET ME SEE YOU BEGIN AGAIN AT SIDE BAR.

3 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD AT THE BENCH:)
4 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. WE ARE BACK OVER AT THE SIDE BAR. MISS CLARK, I LET YOU GO INTO THAT OTHER BUSINESS ABOUT THE TRACE EVIDENCE BECAUSE MR. COCHRAN WENT INTO THE BUSINESS ABOUT THE HAIRS.

5 MS. CLARK:

BUT --

6 THE COURT:

BUT HE HASN'T GONE INTO ANYTHING ON BLOOD.

7 MS. CLARK:

OKAY.

8 MR. COCHRAN:

MOVE TO STRIKE THIS, YOUR HONOR. MOVE TO --

9 THE COURT:

IT IS A QUESTION. I CUT HER OFF AT THE QUESTION.

10 MR. COCHRAN:

BUT YOUR HONOR, A COUPLE TIMES --

11 THE COURT:

EXCEEDING THE SCOPE OF THE CROSS.

12 MS. CLARK:

CAN I ASK THE COURT A QUESTION THEN?

13 THE COURT:

SURE.

14 MS. CLARK:

YOU ARE RIGHT. WHAT I'M GOING AT IS THE RUSH TO JUDGMENT ISSUE AND THIS WAS FOUNDATIONAL TO THE FACT THAT WHAT WE HAD, ON JUNE 17 AT THE TIME OF FILING, WHICH THIS WAS A CENTRAL KEY THEME OF THE DEFENSE, BUT BY THE 17TH, WHEN WE FILED, WE HAD PCR RESULTS ON THE BLOOD TRAIL AT BUNDY, ON THE BRONCO, AND ON THE GLOVE AT ROCKINGHAM.

15 THE COURT:

UH-HUH.

16 MS. CLARK:

SO WE HAD QUITE A SUBSTANTIAL AMOUNT OF EVIDENCE BY THE TIME OF FILING.

17 THE COURT:

LET ME SUGGEST THAT YOU DO THIS, THOUGH: LET ME SUGGEST THAT -- I AGREE WITH YOU THAT THAT IS AN ARGUMENT THAT MR. COCHRAN HAS MADE THAT YOU WANT TO COUNTER, BUT LET ME SUGGEST YOU DO THIS: PUT ON THAT OTHER STUFF, THEN YOU CAN BRING HIM BACK TO SAY WHAT INFORMATION DID YOU HAVE? YOU KNOW, WE HAVE ALREADY HEARD THE TESTIMONY AND THERE IS A FOUNDATION FOR IT. WHAT DID YOU HAVE ON JUNE THE 17TH? THIS INFORMATION, THIS INFORMATION, THIS INFORMATION.

18 MR. COCHRAN:

YOUR HONOR, MAY I OBJECT?

19 MS. CLARK:

WHAT ABOUT THIS, YOUR HONOR: WHAT IF I DO THIS, BECAUSE WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO DO IS AVOID RECALLING WITNESSES. THIS CASE IS GOING TO GO ON FOR THE NEXT CENTURY.

20 THE COURT:

LANGE IS NOT GOING ANYWHERE.

21 MS. CLARK:

NO, HE IS NOT, BUT I HATE TO HAVE TO RECALL WITNESSES WHEN WE CAN GET THIS DONE NOW. AND HERE IS A NON-HEARSAY WAY TO DO IT. LET ME ASK THE COURT FOR GUIDANCE TO THIS. IF I COULD ASK HIM AS OF JUNE 17TH WHEN YOU SUBMITTED THE CASE FOR FILING WERE YOU AWARE OF THE RESULTS OF TESTING DONE ON THIS, THIS, AND THIS?

22 MR. COCHRAN:

YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT TO THIS.

23 MS. CLARK:

NOTHING ELSE.

24 MR. COCHRAN:

I OBJECT.

25 MS. CLARK:

BECAUSE THAT DOESN'T CALL FOR HEARSAY.

26 MR. COCHRAN:

BUT I OBJECT.

27 THE COURT:

HOLD ON.

28 MS. CLARK:

THAT DOESN'T CALL FOR HEARSAY OR THE CONTENTS. IT GOES TO HIS STATE OF MIND WHICH HAS BEEN PLACED INTO ISSUE BY COUNSEL IN TALKING ABOUT THE RUSH TO JUDGMENT. AND THIS IS A FAIR COUNTER TO THAT WITHOUT ASKING FOR THE RESULTS OF ANY TESTS. GOES TO HIS STATE OF MIND WITHOUT ADMITTING THE RESULTS. ALLOWS HIM TO EXPLAIN THAT HE WAS AWARE OF CERTAIN THINGS AT THE TIME OF JUNE THE 17TH THAT GOES COUNTER TO COUNSEL'S --

29 THE COURT:

KEEP YOUR VOICE DOWN AS WELL.

30 MR. COCHRAN:

MAY I BE HEARD, YOUR HONOR?

31 THE COURT:

YES.

32 MR. COCHRAN:

WITH REGARD TO THIS, I DID NOT GO INTO THE BLOOD ASPECT BECAUSE I WAS TOLD, AND THE COURT SUSTAINED OBJECTIONS, THIS IS NOT THE RIGHT WITNESS FOR THAT, IT IS HEARSAY OTHERWISE. AND I JUST OBJECT TO THE COURT GIVING GUIDANCE TO THE PROSECUTION, YOUR HONOR. I DON'T THINK THAT IS FAIR TO THE DEFENDANT IN THIS MATTER.

AND I THINK THAT WE SHOULD -- THEY DON'T NEED ANY HELP. I CERTAINLY DON'T NEED ANY HELP. THE COURT JUMPED ON ME YESTERDAY BECAUSE OF WONG AND FUNG. I KNOW THE DIFFERENCE, BUT I KNEW HE HAD MISTAKEN THAT. TO DO THAT IN FRONT OF THE JURY, BECAUSE HE WAS WRONG ABOUT IT --

33 THE COURT:

WELL, DOESN'T THAT JUST MAKE YOUR POINT ALL THE MORE?

34 MR. COCHRAN:

I WOULD NOT LIKE THE COURT'S INTERFERENCE. THE COURT MAY BE SENSITIVE ABOUT THAT, I KNOW. I GREW UP IN THIS AREA. I WENT TO L.A. HIGH SCHOOL, SO I KNOW A LOT ABOUT DIVERSITY, SO I TAKE UMBRAGE TO THAT. THAT IS NOT A PROBLEM WITH ME. BUT I KNEW THIS OFFICER DOESN'T HAVE THE SAME KIND OF ATTITUDE AND HE TALKED TO MATHESON AND FOUND THAT, SO I AM JUST POINTING THAT OUT. SO I WOULD ASK THE COURT, THEY DON'T NEED ANY HELP WITH THEIR CASE, YOUR HONOR, AND THE RULES ARE GOOD FOR BOTH SIDES AND THIS IS HEARSAY. I HAVE A THEORY OF RUSHING TO JUDGMENT RELATING TO HIM, THEN SHE CAN DEAL WITH THAT. IF SHE HAS OTHER WITNESSES, SHE CAN BRING THEM ON, AND I THINK THAT IS WHAT THE COURT RULED AND I THINK THAT IS FAIR.

35 THE COURT:

HERE IS THE PROBLEM, MR. COCHRAN: I'M NOT HELPING THE PROSECUTION. I'M JUST SUGGESTING A SMOOTHER WAY TO DO THIS BECAUSE THAT IS MY JOB.

36 MR. COCHRAN:

WELL --

37 THE COURT:

WE HAVE TWO THINGS: FIRST, YOU SAY YOU ARE OBJECTING TO HER QUESTIONS REGARDING WHAT INFORMATION DID HE HAVE AT A CERTAIN POINT IN TIME AS HEARSAY.

38 MR. COCHRAN:

YES, IT IS HEARSAY. HE SAYS HE GOES AND TALKS TO THESE PEOPLE AND PRESCRIPTION REPORTS.

39 THE COURT:

WAIT, WAIT. BUT THEN YOU OBJECT TO MY SUGGESTING A WAY TO DO THIS THAT COMES AFTER THE TESTIMONY OF THOSE WITNESSES.

40 MR. COCHRAN:

WELL, YES.

41 THE COURT:

WHICH WAY WOULD YOU LIKE IT? WOULD YOU LIKE ME TO LET THIS STUFF IN AS A NON-HEARSAY STATE OF MIND OR DO YOU WANT ME TO HAVE THEM PUT THEM IN LATER? WHICH WOULD YOU LIKE, MR. COCHRAN?

KEY QUOTE
42 MR. COCHRAN:

LET ME SAY THIS: I DON'T FOLLOW -- THOSE DON'T NECESSARILY LOGICALLY FOLLOW. IF THEY ARE DEALING WITH HEARSAY AND I WANT TO MAKE IT A SHORTER WAY SO THEY COULD MOVE ALONG, I DON'T THINK THAT IS THE ONLY ALTERNATIVE. I THINK THEY HAVE TO GO INTO IT THE RIGHT WAY. THEY WAIT UNTIL THE RIGHT WITNESS COMES IN AND DEAL WITH THAT AT THAT TIME. THAT IS WHAT WE WERE TOLD.

WHEN THEY GET THE PCR AND DNA WE ARE GOING TO DEAL WITH IT THEN.

43 THE COURT:

MR. COCHRAN, THE ONLY THING THAT I PRECLUDED YOU FROM GOING INTO YESTERDAY WAS FAYE RESNICK, BECAUSE THIS DETECTIVE SAID I DIDN'T TALK TO HER, I WASN'T AWARE OF WHAT HER INTERVIEW HAD TO SAY.

44 MR. COCHRAN:

WELL --

45 THE COURT:

AND TO THEN BOOTSTRAP THAT IN WITH WERE YOU AWARE OF SOME DRUG PROBLEMS OVER AT BUNDY ADDRESS, THAT IS -- YOU KNOW, THAT WAS NOT THE RIGHT WITNESS.

46 MR. COCHRAN:

WELL, YOU MAY BE RIGHT AND I BACKED OFF OF THAT.

47 THE COURT:

OKAY.

48 MR. COCHRAN:

I ASKED HIM WAS IT VANNATTER AND I BACKED UP. I DIDN'T TRY TO COME UP WITH SOME OTHER WILD THEORY TO CHANGE YOUR MIND. YOU RULED ON THIS AND I WAS JUST SAYING THAT MY OBJECTION FROM THE STANDPOINT OF MY CLIENT AND OUR SIDE, THAT WE DON'T ASK FOR ANY SUGGESTIONS, WE DON'T NEED ANY HELP. AND I WOULD JUST ASK THE COURT NOT TO GIVE THEM ANY HELP EITHER. I THINK THAT IS THE APPROPRIATE WAY OF DOING IT. JUDGE, WE HAVE MR. DARDEN ON NATIONAL T.V. SAYING THE JUDGE IS MY BUD.

49 MS. CLARK:

WHAT IS THE RELEVANCE OF THIS? WHAT IS THE RELEVANCE OF THIS?

50 MR. COCHRAN:

I THINK --

51 MS. CLARK:

WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH WHAT WE ARE UP HERE FOR? MR. COCHRAN IS GOING OFF ON WILD TANGENTS.

52 THE COURT:

HOLD ON.

53 MR. COCHRAN:

MR. DARDEN IS SAYING ON NATIONAL T.V. THE JUDGE IS MY BUD AND THE COURT SUGGESTS TO HIM -- AND THAT IS ALL I'M SAYING. HE DID SAY THAT.

54 MS. CLARK:

I DON'T KNOW WHAT COUNSEL IS REFERRING TO. COULD WE JUST DISCUSS THE ISSUE AT HAND HERE?

55 MR. DARDEN:

BY THE WAY, I ALSO SAID I LOVED MR. COCHRAN.

KEY QUOTE
56 MR. COCHRAN:

HE HAS ALWAYS SAID THAT.

57 MS. CLARK:

YOU KNOW, WE WANT -- DON'T HAVE TO TALK ABOUT THAT RIGHT HERE. ALL I WANT TO TALK ABOUT IS THE ISSUE RELEGATING FORM OVER SUBSTANCE. WE ALL KNOW THAT THE EVIDENCE IS COMING IN.

58 THE COURT:

THE OBJECTION IS HEARSAY. WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSE?

59 MS. CLARK:

MY RESPONSE IS I'M OFFERING FOR A NON-HEARSAY PURPOSE FOR THE OFFICER'S STATE OF MIND TO REBUT THE INFERENCE CREATED BY COUNSEL ON CROSS-EXAMINATION THAT THERE WAS A RUSH OF JUDGMENT. I'M NOT ASKING TO ADMIT THE RESULTS. I'M ASKING TO EXPLORE -- THAT THIS DETECTIVE WAS AWARE OF RESULTS OF CERTAIN THINGS AT THE TIME HE WENT TO FILE. THE RESULTS WILL COME IN. THE COURT COULD ALSO ALLOW THE RESULTS IN AND HIS KNOWLEDGE OF THE RESULTS IN SUBJECT TO A MOTION TO STRIKE WHEN IT IS ULTIMATELY PROVEN UP, BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT IS COMING.

60 MR. COCHRAN:

JUDGE --

61 MS. CLARK:

IT IS NOT A QUESTION OF IF; IT IS A QUESTION OF WHEN. AND TO HAVE THIS WITNESS HAVE TO BE RECALLED --

62 THE COURT:

HOLD ON.

63 MR. COCHRAN:

JUDGE --

64 THE COURT:

WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSE TO THE NON-HEARSAY USE?

65 MR. COCHRAN:

BECAUSE IT IS IRRELEVANT AND IMMATERIAL THEN. HIS STATE OF MIND IS IRRELEVANT. THAT IS ONLY WITH REGARD TO THIS, YOUR HONOR. HE'S THE INVESTIGATOR IN THIS CASE. HE EITHER DID OR DIDN'T DO CERTAIN THINGS. THIS EVIDENCE IS GOING TO COME IN AS HEARSAY. THAT IS TRYING TO BACK DOOR WHAT SHE COULDN'T DO OTHERWISE BY THAT SAME ANALYSIS, JUDGE. I COULD HAVE LOOKED AT YOU AND SAID SINCE HE'S VANNATTER'S PARTNER AND WE KNOW VANNATTER IS GOING TO BE CALLED, I CAN GO INTO FAYE RESNICK RIGHT NOW. BUT WE HAVE THE RULES. AND THE QUESTION IS OUR WILLINGNESS TO ABIDE BY THE RULES. I THINK THAT IS THE POINT THAT THE PROSECUTION IS NOT DOING. AND I WOULD ASK THE COURT TO SUSTAIN THIS. THIS IS HEARSAY.

66 MS. CLARK:

SUCH TORTURED LOGIC.

67 THE COURT:

WELL, WE'VE GOT APPLES AND ORANGES. I AM GOING TO OVERRULE THE HEARSAY OBJECTION, BUT I'M GOING TO TELL THE JURY IT IS ONLY FOR HIS STATE OF MIND.

68 MR. COCHRAN:

CAN I BE HEARD?

69 THE COURT:

YES.

70 MR. COCHRAN:

HIS STATE OF MIND?

71 MS. CLARK:

YOU MADE IT RELEVANT.

72 THE COURT:

YEAH.

73 MR. COCHRAN:

ALL RIGHT.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (5)

Marcia Clark
BY THE 17TH, WHEN WE FILED, WE HAD PCR RESULTS ON THE BLOOD TRAIL AT BUNDY, ON THE BRONCO, AND ON THE GLOVE AT ROCKINGHAM.
Clark lays out the prosecution's counter to the rush-to-judgment narrative — substantial DNA evidence already existed at time of filing.
Lance A. Ito
WHICH WAY WOULD YOU LIKE IT? WOULD YOU LIKE ME TO LET THIS STUFF IN AS A NON-HEARSAY STATE OF MIND OR DO YOU WANT ME TO HAVE THEM PUT THEM IN LATER? WHICH WOULD YOU LIKE, MR. COCHRAN?
Ito corners Cochran in a logical bind — objecting to both the evidence coming in now and the court's suggestion for a cleaner procedural path.
Johnnie Cochran
JUDGE, WE HAVE MR. DARDEN ON NATIONAL T.V. SAYING THE JUDGE IS MY BUD.
Cochran escalates the sidebar by raising a perceived appearance of judicial bias, triggering a sharp reaction from Clark and a rare quip from Darden.
Christopher Darden
BY THE WAY, I ALSO SAID I LOVED MR. COCHRAN.
Darden defuses the tension with a one-liner that even Cochran acknowledged — a rare light moment at the bench.
Lance A. Ito
I AM GOING TO OVERRULE THE HEARSAY OBJECTION, BUT I'M GOING TO TELL THE JURY IT IS ONLY FOR HIS STATE OF MIND.
The ruling — Clark wins the evidentiary point, but with a limiting instruction confining the testimony's use.

Evidence (3)

Informal
PCR DNA results on the Bundy blood trail, available by June 17 at time of filing
discussed
Informal
PCR DNA results on blood in the Bronco, available by June 17
discussed
Informal
PCR DNA results on the glove at Rockingham, available by June 17
discussed

Notable Exchanges (3)

Lance A. ItoJohnnie Cochran
Ito catches Cochran in a contradictory position — objecting to the evidence coming in now AND objecting to the court's suggestion for admitting it later through proper witnesses. Ito bluntly asks which he prefers.
strategic
Johnnie CochranMarcia ClarkChristopher Darden
Cochran raises Darden's TV comment calling Ito 'my bud' as evidence of prosecutorial coziness with the judge. Clark calls it a wild tangent; Darden quips he also said he loved Cochran.
heated
Lance A. ItoJohnnie Cochran
Cochran objects to the court suggesting evidentiary strategy to the prosecution, calling it unfair to the defense. Ito responds: 'I'M NOT HELPING THE PROSECUTION. I'M JUST SUGGESTING A SMOOTHER WAY TO DO THIS BECAUSE THAT IS MY JOB.'
tense

Light Moments (1)

Christopher Darden
After Cochran complained that Darden called Ito 'my bud' on national TV, Darden deadpanned: 'BY THE WAY, I ALSO SAID I LOVED MR. COCHRAN.' Cochran replied: 'HE HAS ALWAYS SAID THAT.'

Credibility Attacks (1)

⚔ Lance A. Ito
bias / appearance of partiality
Cochran raised Darden's public comment calling Ito 'my bud' to suggest the court was too cozy with the prosecution, using it to object to the judge offering evidentiary guidance to Clark.

Objections

6 objections (0 sustained, 1 overruled)
Proceeding 5191 • 73 utterances
Criminal Trial
Department 103
⚖️ Start
📂 MAR 7, 1995 📄 Sidebar: blood evidence questi
MAR 7, 1995 KRT DvH TD