Robert Shapiro continued cross-examination of Brian 'Kato' Kaelin, methodically documenting the lack of recorded statements across all of Kaelin's interactions with police and prosecutors, then walking through OJ Simpson's demeanor on June 12th — calm, tired, not angry or agitated — from the afternoon through the McDonald's run. Shapiro repeatedly used Kaelin's grand jury testimony to refresh his recollection, reinforcing that OJ appeared relaxed and nonchalant throughout the day.
# 1 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT:) # 2 THE COURT: THANK YOU, COUNSEL. PROCEED.
# 3 MR. SHAPIRO: THANK YOU.
# 4 Q: I WANT TO DIGRESS JUST FOR A MOMENT. THERE WAS A LOT OF QUESTIONS ABOUT PEOPLE YOU TALKED TO PRIOR TO TESTIFYING IN THIS CASE.
# 6 Q: AND I WOULD LIKE TO TAKE A FEW MOMENTS TO REVIEW THAT WITH YOU. THE FIRST PERSON YOU TALKED TO IN THIS CASE WERE DETECTIVES FROM THE LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT?
# 8 Q: AND THE FIRST PERSON IN THAT REGARD WAS DETECTIVE FUHRMAN?
# 10 Q: AND YOU WERE NOT TOLD BY DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, WHEN HE KNOCKED ON THE DOOR, AS -- WELL, LET ME ASK YOU THIS: AT THAT POINT TIME, WHEN THEY KNOCKED ON THE DOOR AND THE FOUR DETECTIVES WERE THERE, DID SOMEBODY SAY "WHERE'S O.J.?"?
# 12 Q: DID ANYBODY THAT MORNING EVER SAY, "WHERE'S O.J.?"?
# 13 A: NO, NOT "WHERE IS O.J." LIKE THAT. I TALKED ABOUT THE PLANE.
# 16 Q: BUT I'M ASKING -- MY QUESTION IS DID THEY ASK YOU, ANY OF THESE FOUR DETECTIVES THAT WERE THERE, OUTSIDE YOUR DOOR, AT SIX O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING, 5:30 IN THE MORNING, DID THEY SAY, "WHERE'S O.J.?"?
# 17 A: NO, NOT AT THAT TIME.
# 18 Q: THAT WAS NOT SOMETHING THAT THEY WANTED TO KNOW IMMEDIATELY, WAS IT?
# 19 A: THEY DIDN'T ASK THAT, NO.
# 20 Q: AND YOU BECAME CONCERNED WHEN THE POLICE CAME UP AND YOU SAID DID HIS PLANE CRASH?
# 22 Q: BECAUSE YOU KNEW THAT HE HAD THIS PREARRANGED FLIGHT?
# 24 Q: YOU HAD TALKED TO HIM THE WHOLE DAY ABOUT IT?
# 26 Q: CORRECT? YOU CONVEYED THAT TO DETECTIVE FUHRMAN AND ALSO TO DETECTIVE VANNATTER, DID YOU NOT?
# 27 MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, MISSTATES THE TESTIMONY.
# 28 THE COURT: SUSTAINED. REPHRASE THE QUESTION.
# 29 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: DID YOU CONVEY THAT TO DETECTIVE FUHRMAN?
# 30 A: I DON'T KNOW IF I SAID IT THEN. I ASKED ABOUT THE PLANE CRASH. I KNOW THAT I HAD SAID THE -- TO DETECTIVE VANNATTER AT THAT TIME ABOUT THE O.J., WHERE HE WENT.
# 31 Q: AND THAT HE WENT FOR HERTZ TO CHICAGO?
# 33 Q: AND YOU ALSO TALKED TO THEM ABOUT O.J. LEAVING IN A LIMOUSINE?
# 34 A: YES, I TOLD THAT TO VANNATTER.
# 35 Q: TO GO TO THE AIRPORT?
# 37 Q: TO GO TO CHICAGO?
# 39 Q: AND THE ONLY THING THAT WAS WRITTEN DOWN THERE WAS TWO PARAGRAPHS BY DETECTIVE VANNATTER?
# 40 A: I NEVER -- I DIDN'T SEE IT.
# 41 Q: YOU NEVER SAW THAT?
# 42 A: NO, I DIDN'T SEE WHAT HE WROTE.
# 43 Q: HE DIDN'T SHOW IT TO YOU?
# 45 Q: HE DIDN'T ASK YOU TO REVIEW IT?
# 46 A: I DON'T THINK SO.
# 47 Q: AND THE DISTRICT ATTORNEYS HAVE NEVER SHOWN THAT TO YOU?
# 49 Q: AND THEN YOU MET WITH DETECTIVES -- WITH OFFICERS CARR AND TIPPIN?
# 51 Q: AND THEY ASKED YOU TO COME WITH THEM TO THE POLICE STATION?
# 52 A: THAT IS -- THEY WERE THERE. SOMEONE ELSE TOOK ME THERE.
# 53 Q: SOMEONE TOOK YOU TO THE POLICE STATION?
# 54 A: SOMEONE TOOK ME TO THE POLICE STATION AND I WAS IN A ROOM; THEY WERE THERE.
# 55 Q: YOU WERE THERE FOR A LONG TIME, WEREN'T YOU?
# 57 Q: HOW MANY HOURS WERE YOU THERE?
# 58 A: ABOUT 7:30, EIGHT O'CLOCK, UNTIL I THINK, 3:40, FOUR O'CLOCK. IT WAS A LONG TIME. LET'S FIGURE IT OUT. LIKE SEVEN, EIGHT HOURS.
# 59 Q: DID THEY GIVE YOU ANYTHING TO EAT?
# 60 A: THEY OFFERED ME FOOD, BUT I DIDN'T EAT.
# 62 A: NO, I DIDN'T. I WASN'T HUNGRY.
# 63 Q: AND DID THEY TALK TO YOU DURING THIS PERIOD OF TIME?
# 65 Q: AND DID THEY HAVE A TAPE RECORDER ON TO RECORD A STATEMENT FROM YOU?
# 67 Q: AND DID YOU TELL THEM WHAT YOU REMEMBERED ABOUT YOUR DAY WITH O.J. SIMPSON ON THE 12TH?
# 69 Q: WERE YOU HONEST WITH THEM?
# 71 Q: WERE YOU STRAIGHTFORWARD WITH THEM?
# 72 A: YEAH. I WAS PRETTY HYPER AND I WAS TELLING THEM EVERYTHING I KNEW.
KEY QUOTE # 73 Q: AND THEY TOOK A REPORT?
# 77 Q: AND THEN THEY WROTE A FORMAL REPORT AND TYPED IT UP?
# 79 Q: AND THEY PICKED YOU UP AND TOOK YOU DOWNTOWN TO TESTIFY BEFORE A GRAND JURY?
# 81 Q: AND THEY GAVE YOU THOSE -- THAT FORMAL REPORT TO READ?
# 83 Q: AND YOU FOUND MISTAKES IN THAT REPORT, DIDN'T YOU?
# 85 Q: AND THEN YOU CAME DOWN TO THE GRAND JURY?
# 87 Q: DID YOU TALK TO ANYBODY BEFORE YOU WENT BEFORE THE GRAND JURY?
# 89 Q: AND WERE YOU QUESTIONED BY LAWYERS FROM THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S OFFICE IN THE GRAND JURY?
# 91 Q: WELL, BEFORE YOU WENT INTO THE GRAND JURY ROOM?
# 93 Q: WERE YOU QUESTIONED BY LAWYERS FOR THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY?
# 95 Q: WHAT LAWYERS WERE YOU QUESTIONED BY?
# 96 A: UMM, MARCIA CLARK AND THE -- WHO IS THE OTHER --
# 98 A: DAVID CONN, I THINK THAT WAS IT FOR THE DISTRICT ATTORNEYS, BUT TIPPIN AND CARR WERE IN THERE, TOO.
# 99 Q: AND HOW LONG DID THEY QUESTION YOU?
# 100 A: UMM, I DON'T KNOW WHAT TIME. I GOT DOWN THERE -- I THINK I WAS SUPPOSED TO BE ON AT ONE O'CLOCK AND I GOT DOWN THERE I THINK AT LIKE 10:30, AND I THINK THEN I HAD A LAWYER SHOW UP, SO I WOULD SAY ABOUT TWO HOURS.
# 101 Q: DID THEY TAPE-RECORD --
# 102 A: I DON'T KNOW THE EXACT TIME, BUT I THINK AROUND THERE.
# 103 Q: DID THEY TAPE-RECORD THAT CONVERSATION?
# 105 Q: THEN YOU TESTIFIED BEFORE THE GRAND JURY?
# 106 A: NOT THAT DAY. I MEAN I WENT IN, BUT THEN I HAD A LAWYER THAT SHOWED UP.
# 107 Q: YOU CAME BACK ANOTHER DAY TO TESTIFY BEFORE THE GRAND JURY?
# 109 Q: DID YOU TALK TO ANY LAWYERS FROM THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S OFFICE BEFORE YOU WENT TO THE GRAND JURY?
# 111 Q: AND MR. CONN ASKED YOU QUESTIONS BEFORE THE GRAND JURY?
# 113 Q: AND MISS CLARK ASKED YOU QUESTIONS BEFORE THE GRAND JURY?
# 115 Q: AND YOU ANSWERED ALL THOSE QUESTIONS TRUTHFULLY?
# 116 A: WELL, I WAS -- I WAS SAYING THAT I --
# 117 MS. CLARK: WELL, YOUR HONOR, I WOULD LIKE TO APPROACH.
# 118 MR. SHAPIRO: IS THAT AN OBJECTION?
# 119 MS. CLARK: YES, IT IS AN OBJECTION.
# 120 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WITH THE REPORTER, PLEASE.
# 121 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD AT THE BENCH:) # 122 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. OVER AT THE SIDE BAR. MISS CLARK, WHAT IS YOUR OBJECTION?
# 123 MS. CLARK: MR. SHAPIRO KNOWS THIS IS INAPPROPRIATE. IT IS IMPROPER AND IT IS INADMISSIBLE. WHEN WE FIRST BROUGHT MR. KAELIN DOWN HE WOULD NOT DISCUSS THE CASE WITH US. HE HAD AN ATTORNEY PRESENT WHO WANTED TO TALK TO HIM AND GET -- AND GET HIM FAMILIAR WITH THE FACTS FIRST. HE WAS CALLED BEFORE THE GRAND JURY AND REFUSED TO TESTIFY UNTIL HE COULD SPEAK TO HIS LAWYER AND HIS LAWYER ADVISED HIM TO READ THAT STATEMENT THAT THEY READ "PREPARED ON THE ADVISE OF MY ATTORNEY." AFTER HE WAS ABLE TO SPEAK WITH HIS LAWYER HE CAME BACK AND TESTIFIED, BUT MR. SHAPIRO IS NOW ATTEMPTING TO ADMIT BEFORE THE JURY THE FACT THAT HE WOULD NOT TESTIFY BEFORE THE GRAND JURY UNTIL HE MET WITH HIS ATTORNEY. AND I THINK THAT THAT IS AN IMPROPER VIOLATION OF THE ATTORNEY-CLIENT PRIVILEGE AND IT IS ALSO INADMISSIBLE TO -- IT IS INADMISSIBLE. ANY KIND OF INVOCATION IS INADMISSIBLE.
# 124 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL.) # 125 MR. SHAPIRO: YOUR HONOR, THAT IS NOT OUR INTENTION WHATSOEVER.
# 126 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
# 127 MS. CLARK: BUT THAT IS WHERE HE IS GOING.
# 128 THE COURT: SO YOU WILL DIRECT YOUR QUESTIONS AROUND THAT?
# 129 MR. SHAPIRO: NO. MY QUESTION IS DID YOU TESTIFY BEFORE THE GRAND JURY HONESTLY? THAT WAS MY QUESTION.
# 130 THE COURT: THAT IS WHAT I HEARD.
# 131 MS. CLARK: AND THE WITNESS WAS ABOUT TO ANSWER I WOULD NOT -- I DID NOT, I WAS READING A STATEMENT.
# 132 MR. SHAPIRO: I CAN'T CONTROL HIS ANSWER.
# 133 MS. CLARK: YES, YOU CAN.
# 134 THE COURT: WELL, ASK HIM TO VERY CAREFULLY -- I WILL LEAD HIM INTO IT.
# 135 THE COURT: THESE ARE MINE.
# 136 MR. SHAPIRO: I WILL LEAD HIM INTO IT.
# 137 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
# 138 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT:) # 139 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: YOU TESTIFIED BEFORE THE GRAND JURY?
# 141 Q: AND YOU WERE ASKED QUESTIONS BY BOTH MR. CONN AND MISS CLARK?
# 143 Q: AND YOU TESTIFIED HONESTLY BEFORE THE GRAND JURY TO THEIR QUESTIONS THAT THEY ASKED YOU?
# 145 Q: AND HAVE YOU REVIEWED THAT TESTIMONY BEFORE THE GRAND JURY?
# 147 Q: AND WAS IT ACCURATE?
# 149 Q: AND AT SOME TIME LATER DID YOU THEN AGAIN MEET WITH THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S OFFICE AND REPRESENTATIVES OF THEIR OFFICE?
# 151 Q: WHEN DID YOU MEET WITH THEM?
# 152 A: UMM, I DON'T KNOW THE DATES, BUT --
# 154 A: I THINK BEFORE I -- I THINK BEFORE THE PRELIMINARY HEARINGS.
# 155 Q: WHO DID YOU TALK TO?
# 156 A: IT WAS MARCIA CLARK. I THOUGHT -- UMM, I THINK WILLIAM HODGMAN MIGHT HAVE BEEN IN THERE, TOO. I'M NOT POSITIVE.
# 157 Q: WAS THAT INTERVIEW TAPE-RECORDED?
# 159 Q: WAS A REPORT WRITTEN OF THAT INTERVIEW?
# 160 A: OH, NOTES? DID I GET?
# 163 Q: DID YOU SIGN ANY STATEMENT AS A RESULT OF THAT INTERVIEW?
# 165 Q: DID YOU MEET WITH THEM AGAIN?
# 167 Q: WHEN IS THE NEXT TIME YOU MET WITH THEM?
# 168 A: AFTER THAT IT WAS I THINK A MONTH AGO.
# 170 A: HERE AT THE -- IN MARCIA CLARK'S OFFICE.
# 171 Q: WHO WAS PRESENT AT THAT TIME?
# 172 A: MARCIA CLARK AND I -- MY -- WILLIAM GENEGO WHO WAS WITH ME AND HE WAS ALSO THERE THE OTHER TIME, I DIDN'T MENTION WILLIAM GENEGO, AND SOMEONE -- HANK. I DON'T KNOW HIS LAST NAME.
# 173 Q: HANK GOLDBERG, A DISTRICT ATTORNEY?
# 174 A: IS THAT HIS LAST NAME? IF I SAW HIM, I WOULD KNOW HIM.
# 176 A: AND THEN A GIRL THAT I DON'T KNOW HER NAME.
# 177 Q: WAS SHE A LAWYER?
# 179 Q: IS THAT CHERI LEWIS?
# 180 A: SHE COULD HAVE BEEN IN THERE. I'M NOT SURE WHICH -- IT WAS A WOMAN. I DON'T KNOW -- I DON'T REMEMBER HER NAME.
# 181 Q: AND THAT MEETING LASTED OVER AN HOUR?
# 183 Q: AND WAS THAT MEETING TAPE-RECORDED?
# 185 Q: AND HAVE YOU MET WITH THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY SINCE THEN?
# 187 Q: WHEN DID YOU MEET WITH THEM AGAIN?
# 188 A: ON -- JUST A -- THE DAY BEFORE I -- THE FIRST DAY I TESTIFIED, BEFORE THAT. I THINK IT WAS THE DAY -- OR WEEK, IT WAS RIGHT AROUND THERE.
# 189 Q: WHO DID YOU MEET WITH THEN?
# 191 Q: YOU MET WITH HER IN THIS BUILDING?
# 193 Q: WAS SHE ALONE WITH YOU?
# 195 Q: WHO ELSE WAS THERE?
# 197 Q: HOW LONG DID YOU TALK TO HER AT THAT TIME?
# 198 A: I THINK AN HOUR AND A HALF.
# 199 Q: WAS THAT MEETING TAPE-RECORDED?
# 201 Q: WERE NOTES TAKEN OF THAT MEETING?
# 202 A: UMM, I THINK SO. I DIDN'T GET NOTES.
# 203 Q: DID YOU SEE ANY REPORT FROM THAT MEETING?
# 205 Q: WERE YOU EVER ASKED TO SIGN ANY STATEMENT OR REVIEW THAT?
# 207 Q: DID MARCIA CLARK, IN ANY OF THOSE MEETINGS, SEEM UNHAPPY WITH ANY OF THE ANSWERS YOU WERE GIVING?
# 208 MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. THAT CALLS FOR SPECULATION.
# 209 THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
# 210 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: WERE YOU ASKED QUESTIONS -- WAS -- WERE QUESTIONS DIRECTED AT YOU IN AN ATTEMPT TO GET ANSWERS THAT YOU DID NOT FEEL WERE CORRECT?
# 211 A: I WAS TRYING TO GO THROUGH MY MEMORY AND I WOULD TAKE TIME TO GO, OH, LIKE, YOU KNOW, TO THINK, AND I WAS -- YEAH, IF I DIDN'T KNOW, I WOULD SAY I JUST DON'T KNOW AND THAT IS IT. IF I DIDN'T KNOW SOMETHING, I WOULD DO THAT, BUT SHE DIDN'T PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH.
# 212 Q: WERE YOU PRESSED BY ANYONE?
# 213 MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, VAGUE.
# 214 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN: TO TRY TO REMEMBER --
# 215 THE COURT: OVERRULED.
# 216 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN: TO TRY TO REMEMBER TO -- I DON'T KNOW. IT WAS -- I DIDN'T WANT TO BE THERE FOR A LONG TIME. I MEAN, IT WAS NOT FUN, SO IT WASN'T -- I DON'T KNOW IF PRESSED -- I DON'T KNOW. WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY "PRESSED"?
# 217 Q: WHY DIDN'T YOU WANT TO BE THERE?
# 218 A: WHY DIDN'T I WANT TO BE?
# 219 Q: WAS IT TOUGH FOR YOU?
# 220 A: IT WAS -- IT WAS -- I HAD A LOT ON MY MIND AND I JUST WANTED TO GET EVERYTHING OVER WITH, BUT --
# 221 Q: WERE YOU -- I'M SORRY.
# 222 A: THAT WAS ABOUT IT, BUT I -- I COMPLIED. I DIDN'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IT, BEING THERE, AND SO I DID IT.
# 223 Q: WERE AREAS SUGGESTED TO YOU OF THINGS THAT DID NOT HAPPEN?
# 224 A: UMM, NO. NO. IT WAS MY MEMORY GOING THROUGH, BUT IF I HAD A DIFFICULTY, IF I DIDN'T REMEMBER, IT WAS CERTAIN -- LIKE A PHONE CALL OR SOMETHING BECAUSE OF -- I JUST DON'T REMEMBER CERTAIN THINGS, BUT I KNOW IT HAPPENED, THE CALL, BUT I COULDN'T REMEMBER THE TIMES ON A CALL LIKE WHEN -- THE HOWARD WEITZMAN. I KNEW IT WAS THAT DAY, BUT I DIDN'T KNOW EXACTLY ALL THE DIALOGUE, BUT I -- I --
# 225 Q: I TAKE IT THIS HAS BEEN A VERY DIFFICULT TIME FOR YOU?
# 227 Q: A LOT OF PRESSURE HAS BEEN PUT ON YOU?
# 229 Q: AND IS IT DIFFICULT TO BE PRECISE AS TO WHAT EXACT WORDS WERE SAID WHEN YOU WERE WITH O.J. AND WHAT YOU REMEMBER HIM SAYING AND YOU SAYING?
# 230 A: I DIDN'T KNOW ALL THE WORDS, BUT I KNOW THEY WERE TALKING. I KNOW HE WAS ON THE PHONE, O.J., HOWARD WEITZMAN AND MYSELF.
# 231 Q: IT WAS ALSO A VERY EMOTIONAL TIME FOR YOU BECAUSE ONE OF YOUR DEAR FRIENDS HAD BEEN MURDERED?
# 235 Q: AND YOU HAVE DONE THE BEST YOU CAN TO TRY TO RECOLLECT WHAT TOOK PLACE, BUT YOU CAN'T BE ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN OF EVERYTHING YOU TESTIFIED TO, CAN YOU?
# 237 MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.
# 238 THE COURT: OVERRULED.
# 239 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN: I HAVE BEEN HONEST IN EVERYTHING I REMEMBER, AND I ANSWERED THAT WAY.
# 240 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: TO THE BEST OF YOUR ABILITY?
# 242 Q: AND ARE THERE SOME AREAS THAT YOU HAVE GONE OVER WITH MISS CLARK AND WITH MYSELF THAT YOU STILL ARE NOT CLEAR ON?
# 243 A: I THINK I'M PRETTY GOOD ON EVERYTHING. I THINK I'M PRETTY MUCH RIGHT THERE.
# 244 Q: ARE YOU PRECISE AS TO THE EXACT WORDS THAT WERE SAID BY O.J. SIMPSON?
# 245 A: THE EXACT WORDS? NO.
# 246 Q: I WANT TO DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION TO THE DAY OF JUNE THE 12TH AND THE FIRST TIME THAT YOU SAW O.J. THAT DAY. THAT WAS IN THE AFTERNOON?
# 249 A: IT WAS ABOUT 2:30.
# 250 Q: AND YOU HAD A BRIEF CONVERSATION WITH HIM?
# 251 A: IT WAS A CONVERSATION KIND OF GOING OFF AND ON THROUGHOUT THE AFTERNOON, BUT YEAH, WE WERE TALKING AND ABOUT HIS GOLF GAME AND THE PLAYING CARDS.
# 252 Q: YOU DIDN'T GET INTO SPECIFICS ABOUT HIS GOLF GAME OR CARDS, DID HE?
# 253 A: HE SAID HE DID GOOD IN GOLF. I DON'T KNOW WHO -- IN THE CARD GAME, I DON'T KNOW WHO WON AND WHAT GAME THEY WERE PLAYING.
# 254 Q: HE DIDN'T SPECIFICALLY DISCUSS WITH YOU ANYTHING THAT TOOK PLACE IN GOLF, OTHER THAN HE PLAYED GOLF AND HAD A GOOD GAME?
# 256 Q: AND THE SAME THING WITH CARDS? HE DIDN'T DISCUSS ANYTHING SPECIFIC ABOUT HOW HE WAS FEELING PHYSICALLY OR NOT, DID HE?
# 258 Q: AND HE WOULD NEVER DISCUSS THAT, WOULD HE?
# 260 Q: HIS PHYSICAL CONDITION?
# 261 A: NO. WELL, SOMETIMES IF HE WAS LIKE SORE, HE COULD SAY IT, BUT LIKE NO, HE WASN'T DISCUSSING THAT.
# 262 Q: WAS HE A COMPLAINER WHO WOULD COMPLAIN IF THINGS WERE BOTHERING HIM?
# 263 MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, SPECULATION, YOUR HONOR; VAGUE.
# 264 THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
# 265 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: DID HE PHYSICALLY COMPLAIN -- DID HE COMPLAIN TO YOU ABOUT ANY PHYSICAL INJURIES?
# 266 A: WELL, I -- NOT LIKE -- YOU KNOW, AS IN PASSING MAYBE, I DON'T KNOW THE DATE, SOMETIMES HE MIGHT GO, "OH, MY KNEES" OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
# 267 Q: WHAT WOULD HE SAY ABOUT HIS KNEES?
# 268 A: HE WOULD JUST -- JUST LIKE THAT. YOU KNOW, IF HE JUST -- JUST WOULD GO, "OH, MY KNEES" MEANING THAT MAYBE HE HAD -- LIKE FROM FOOTBALL, BUT HE WAS JUST SAYING, "OH, MY KNEES," BUT HE WASN'T COMPLAINING, HE WASN'T --
# 269 Q: WHAT WOULD HE BE DOING WHEN HE WAS SAYING THAT? WAS HE PLAYING A SPORT OR WAS HE JUST IN THE HOUSE?
# 270 A: OH, IT WAS IN THE HOUSE.
# 271 Q: AND DID HE EVER TALK ABOUT ARTHRITIS?
# 272 A: YES, THAT HE HAD ARTHRITIS. HE DIDN'T TELL ME THAT HE HAD ARTHRITIS, BUT I KNOW THAT MICHELLE, THE OTHER MAID, SAID THAT ONE OF THE DOCTORS WAS A DOCTOR TO --
# 273 MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, HEARSAY.
# 274 THE COURT: SUSTAINED. THE JURY IS TO DISREGARD WHAT THE OTHER PERSON SAID.
# 275 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN: OH.
# 276 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: DID YOU LEARN ANYTHING ABOUT HIS ARTHRITIS?
# 277 MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. CALLS FOR HEARSAY, YOUR HONOR.
# 278 THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
# 279 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: DO YOU KNOW WHAT ARTHRITIS IS?
# 281 Q: DID YOU SEE ANY SYMPTOMS OF IT YOURSELF?
# 282 MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR, SPECULATION.
# 283 THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
# 284 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: DID YOU SEE ANY SWOLLEN JOINTS ON O.J.?
# 285 A: NO. NOT SWOLLEN, NO.
# 286 Q: DID YOU SEE ANYTHING ABOUT HIS FINGERS BEING BENT IN A SPECIAL WAY AT ANY TIME?
# 287 A: NO. JUST WHEN HE SAID HE WAS SORE, YOU KNOW, THE KNEES, BUT THAT IS IT. I DIDN'T LOOK. I DIDN'T SEE.
# 288 Q: DID HE EVER TELL YOU HE WAS STIFF?
# 290 Q: WHAT WOULD THAT BE IN RELATIONSHIP TO?
# 291 MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, VAGUE AS TO TIME; IRRELEVANT.
# 292 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: WHEN DID HE TELL YOU HE WAS STIFF?
# 293 A: ONE TIME JUST AT BREAKFAST AT THIS TABLE HE GOT UP AND, "OH, I'M STIFF."
# 294 Q: DID HE TELL YOU HE WAS STIFF ON JUNE THE 12TH?
# 295 A: NO, I DON'T THINK SO.
# 297 A: I DON'T REMEMBER THAT. I SAID IT, THAT I WAS THAT DAY, I KNOW THAT, BECAUSE THAT IS WHY I TOOK A JACUZZI, SO THAT WORD CAME UP AND I THINK I SAID, "WELL, I KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN WHEN YOU ARE STIFF SOMETIMES. BOY, CAN I TAKE A JACUZZI?"
# 298 Q: HOW WAS HE -- WHAT WAS HIS DEMEANOR LIKE AT 2:30?
# 300 Q: WHEN YOU SAY "FINE" --
# 303 A: GOT DONE GOLFING, LIKE YOU ARE NOW, I GUESS. I GUESS NORMAL CONVERSATION.
# 304 Q: HE DIDN'T SEEM ANGRY?
# 306 Q: DIDN'T SEEM AGITATED?
# 308 Q: HE DIDN'T SEEM DEPRESSED?
# 310 Q: DIDN'T SEEM DESPONDENT?
# 312 Q: DIDN'T SEEM PREOCCUPIED?
# 313 A: NO. I THINK HE MENTIONED THE TRIP WAS COMING UP.
# 314 Q: AND IN REGARD TO THE TRIP, WAS THAT HE JUST WASN'T LOOKING FORWARD TO THAT TRIP, RIGHT?
# 316 Q: THAT HIS WORK SCHEDULE REQUIRED HIM TO GO ON THESE OVERNIGHT TRIPS THAT WERE REALLY NOT A LOT OF FUN FOR HIM?
# 317 A: I RARELY KNEW WHEN HE WENT ON TRIPS, BUT YEAH, HE WAS GOING ON A TRIP TO CHICAGO. I DIDN'T KNOW THAT IT WAS -- I DON'T THINK I KNEW IT WAS OVERNIGHT. I JUST KNEW HE WAS GOING TO CHICAGO. HE MIGHT HAVE SAID THAT. I'M NOT SURE.
# 318 Q: YOU KNEW IT WAS A REDEYE?
# 319 A: REDEYE FLIGHT GOING THERE. OH, I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT THE -- I KNEW IT WAS A HERTZ CONVENTION AND HE WAS GOING TO CHICAGO.
# 320 Q: AND HE WAS GOING TO PLAY GOLF?
# 321 A: THERE WAS GOLF CLUBS.
# 322 Q: AND THAT THE REDEYE MEANS THAT IT TAKES THE -- THE FLIGHT TAKES PLACE DURING THE EVENING HOURS?
# 324 Q: DO YOU KNOW WHAT TIME THAT FLIGHT GENERALLY LEAVES?
# 326 Q: AND HE HAD TOLD YOU HE HAD BEEN UP SINCE 5:00 THAT MORNING PLAYING GOLF?
# 327 MS. CLARK: THERE WILL BE AN OBJECTION, HEARSAY.
# 328 THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
# 329 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: DID HE INDICATE -- DID HE APPEAR TO BE TIRED?
# 330 A: WELL, HE GOLFED THAT MORNING AND HE HAD MENTIONED BEING TIRED.
# 331 Q: AND YOU TOLD HIM HE LOOKED TIRED, DIDN'T YOU?
# 333 Q: YOU TOLD HIM HE SHOULD TAKE A NAP?
# 335 Q: AND TRY TO REST?
# 337 Q: AND DID YOU -- WOULD YOU SAY HE WAS JUST, TO USE YOUR WORDS I THINK ONCE BEFORE, JUST KICKING BACK?
# 338 (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.) # 339 Q: IN THE HOUSE THAT AFTERNOON?
# 340 A: YEAH, I SAID THAT KICKING BACK, MEANING KIND OF RELAXED.
# 341 Q: DIDN'T SEEM OUT OF SORTS AT ALL, DID HE?
# 342 MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, VAGUE.
# 343 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN: I'M SORRY, WHAT?
# 344 MS. CLARK: SPECULATION.
# 345 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: DID HE SEEM OUT OF SORTS AT ALL?
# 347 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: WAS THERE ANYTHING UNUSUAL ABOUT THE WAY HE LOOKED THAT DAY?
# 348 A: THE WAY HE LOOKED? NO.
# 349 Q: ANYTHING UNUSUAL ABOUT THE WAY HE ACTED?
# 352 A: HE WAS TIRED AND NOT TALKING A LOT, SO LIKE THAT. I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW -- THAT IS WHY I MENTIONED IT.
# 353 Q: THE NEXT TIME YOU SAW HIM WAS AFTER YOU CAME BACK FROM PLAYING BASKETBALL?
# 354 A: YES, AFTER THE -- AFTER I HAD WATCHED THE PLAYOFF GAME, BUT IT WAS AFTER BASKETBALL, YES.
# 355 Q: AND DID HE SEEM UNUSUAL IN ANY WAY WHEN YOU SAW HIM AT ABOUT SIX O'CLOCK THAT EVENING?
# 356 A: PROBABLY JUST A LITTLE BIT MORE UPSET BECAUSE IT WAS AFTER THE RECITAL.
# 357 Q: THIS WAS ABOUT -- WHAT TIME WAS THIS? AFTER 6:00 AND BEFORE 7:00?
# 359 Q: OR IN THAT AREA?
# 361 Q: NOW, HE HAD TOLD YOU HE WAS GOING TO THE RECITAL FOR HIS DAUGHTER?
# 363 Q: AND DID YOU SEE HIM WHEN HE LEFT FOR THE RECITAL?
# 365 Q: DID YOU SEE HIM WHEN HE RETURNED?
# 367 Q: WELL, YOU SAW HIM AFTER HE RETURNED FROM THE RECITAL --
# 368 A: I DIDN'T SEE HIM RETURNING. YEAH, AFTER, RIGHT.
# 369 Q: AFTER THE RECITAL YOU SAW HIM?
# 371 THE COURT: WAIT, WAIT, WAIT.
# 372 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: YOU SAW HIM AFTER THE RECITAL BACK AT ROCKINGHAM?
# 374 Q: AND WAS HE NEATLY DRESSED?
# 375 A: I BELIEVE IT WAS LIKE A SWEAT OUTFIT.
# 377 A: BUT I NEVER SAW HIM SLOPPY DRESSED.
# 378 Q: AND HE TOLD YOU THAT HE HAD SEEN SYDNEY PERFORM?
# 380 Q: AND DID HE SAY SYDNEY WAS GREAT?
# 382 Q: DID HE HAVE A SMILE ON HIS FACE WHEN HE SAID THAT?
# 384 Q: AND DID HE SAY THIS IN A NORMAL VOICE?
# 385 A: THAT SYDNEY WAS GREAT, YES.
# 386 Q: DID HE SEEM IN ANY WAY A LITTLE BIT UNHAPPY BECAUSE HE COULDN'T SPEND AS MUCH TIME WITH SYDNEY AS HE WOULD LIKE?
# 387 A: WELL, IT WAS BROUGHT UP WHAT I HAD SAID, THAT HE WANTED TIME WITH SYDNEY, AND I GUESS THAT THEY WENT OFF, NICOLE AND SYDNEY WENT OFF AND HE DIDN'T HAVE TIME WITH HER.
# 388 Q: AND HE EXPRESSED THE FACT THAT HE WOULD HAVE LIKED TO HAVE SPENT MORE TIME WITH SYDNEY?
# 389 A: THAT HE WANTED TO SEE HER.
# 390 Q: BECAUSE SHE HAD DONE SO GREAT AND THIS WAS A SPECIAL NIGHT?
# 392 Q: AND AS A FATHER YOU UNDERSTOOD THAT, DIDN'T YOU?
# 394 Q: DID YOU SEE ANYTHING ABNORMAL ABOUT HIS REACTION TO WANTING TO SPEND A LITTLE MORE TIME WITH HIS DAUGHTER AFTER THE RECITAL?
# 395 MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, IRRELEVANT, CALLS FOR SPECULATION, YOUR HONOR.
# 396 THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
# 397 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: DID YOU SEE ANYTHING UNUSUAL IN HIS FEELINGS BECAUSE HE COULDN'T SPEND AS MUCH TIME WITH HIS DAUGHTER THAT HE WOULD HAVE LIKED?
# 398 MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. ASSUMES FACT NOT IN EVIDENCE, CALLS FOR SPECULATION, IT IS IRRELEVANT.
# 399 THE COURT: OVERRULED.
# 400 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN: NO. IT WAS -- HE JUST SAID IT. IT WASN'T UNUSUAL.
# 401 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: WAS HE ANGRY?
# 402 A: NO -- NOT WHEN HE SAID THAT.
# 403 Q: WAS HE AGITATED?
# 405 Q: HOW MUCH TIME DID YOU SPEND WITH HIM AFTER THE RECITAL DURING THIS CONVERSATION?
# 406 A: DURING THAT CONVERSATION? WELL, I TOOK -- I TOOK A JACUZZI AFTER THAT AND WHEN THE PHONE RINGS OR SOMETHING, IF THE PHONE RINGS A LOT I DON'T LISTEN TO THE CONVERSATION.
SO MY CONVERSATION -- IF HE IS ON THE PHONE, I DON'T TALK. SO IF THE PHONE WAS RINGING, I LET HIM TALK ON THE PHONE, SO MY CONVERSATION WAS -- I DON'T KNOW. IT WAS -- IT WASN'T A LOT. WE WERE TALKING WHEN HE GOT OFF THE PHONE AND ON THE PHONE.
# 407 Q: AND THEN YOU SAW HIM A LITTLE LATER THAT EVENING?
# 409 Q: ABOUT WHAT TIME?
# 410 A: UMM, ABOUT 8:30, AROUND THERE, WHEN HE CAME INTO THE ROOM.
# 411 Q: AND THAT IS WHEN HE ASKED YOU FOR CHANGE FOR A HUNDRED DOLLAR BILL?
# 412 A: NO. THAT WAS THE TURN THE JACUZZI OFF. I FORGOT THE JETS.
# 413 Q: AND DURING -- AND AT SOME POINT IN TIME DID HE ASK YOU IF YOU HAD CHANGE FOR A HUNDRED DOLLARS?
# 415 Q: DID HE INDICATE TO YOU THAT HE HAD TO GO TO THE AIRPORT AND HE NEEDED SOME MONEY FOR A TIP FOR THE SKYCAP?
# 416 A: RIGHT. HE ASKED ME IF HE HAD -- NOT CHANGE FOR A HUNDRED, BUT HE ASKED ME IF I HAD A FIVE FOR A SKYCAP, SO I GAVE HIM A TWENTY.
# 417 Q: DO YOU RECALL SPECIFICALLY IF HE ASKED FOR CHANGE OR WHETHER HE ASKED FOR A FIVE OR A TWENTY OR THAT HE JUST HAD SOME CONVERSATION ABOUT GETTING SOME SMALL BILLS FOR THE SKYCAP?
# 418 A: I DON'T KNOW THE EXACT, BUT I THOUGHT IT WAS JUST A FIVE. I THOUGHT IT WAS JUST FIVE AND I GAVE HIM TWENTY.
# 419 Q: DID HE SEEM AGITATED AT THAT TIME?
# 421 Q: DID HE SEEM ANGRY?
# 423 Q: DID HE SEEM DEPRESSED?
# 424 A: NO. TIRED. I DON'T KNOW. THAT IS NOT THE SAME AS DEPRESSED. JUST DOWN, NOT DEPRESSED, BUT DOWN BECAUSE HE HAD THE -- HE WAS TALKING ABOUT PACKING AND HE SAID BEFORE HE WASN'T LOOKING FORWARD TO PACKING.
# 425 Q: JUST WASN'T LOOKING FORWARD TO THE TRIP?
# 427 Q: DID HE TALK ABOUT ANYTHING THAT WAS BOTHERING HIM?
# 429 Q: DID HE TALK ABOUT ANY PROBLEMS IN HIS LIFE?
# 431 Q: DID HE TALK ABOUT ANY ANGER HE HAD TOWARDS ANYONE?
# 433 Q: AND THEN THERE WAS A DISCUSSION ABOUT GOING TO GET A HAMBURGER?
# 435 Q: AND YOU INVITED YOURSELF TO GO ALONG?
# 437 Q: AND HE HAD NO PROBLEM WITH THAT?
# 439 MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, THAT CALLS FOR SPECULATION.
# 440 THE COURT: OVERRULED.
# 441 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: DID HE SAY "I WOULD RATHER BE ALONE"?
# 443 Q: DID HE SAY "I DON'T FEEL LIKE HAVING ANY COMPANY, I'VE GOT SOME THINGS TO DO"?
# 445 Q: DID HE SAY, "I'M REALLY GOING TO BE RUSHED. IT WOULD BE MUCH EASIER IF WE DID THIS ANOTHER TIME, KATO"?
# 446 MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR, TO ALL THOSE QUESTIONS. IT CALLS FOR HEARSAY.
# 447 THE COURT: OVERRULED.
# 448 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN: NO.
# 449 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: AND IT WAS JUST THE SAME TYPE OF FRIENDLY GESTURES THAT YOU HAVE ALWAYS COME TO EXPECT FROM O.J., WASN'T IT?
# 450 MS. CLARK: OBJECTION.
# 451 THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
# 452 MS. CLARK: MOTION TO STRIKE THE QUESTION, YOUR HONOR.
# 453 THE COURT: THE JURY HAS ALREADY BEEN TOLD TO DISREGARD THE IMPLICATION OF QUESTIONS.
# 454 MS. CLARK: THANK YOU.
# 455 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: WHEN YOU WENT TO MC DONALD'S, WAS THERE ANY PARTICULAR RUSH TO GET THERE?
# 457 Q: DID HE SAY, "KATO, DO YOU KNOW OF THE CLOSEST MC DONALD'S?"?
# 459 Q: IN FACT, WHEN YOU INITIALLY TALKED TO TIPPIN AND CARR, YOU DIDN'T KNOW WHETHER YOU WENT TO THE MC DONALD'S ON WILSHIRE OR SANTA MONICA, DID YOU?
# 460 A: YEAH. I SAID IT WAS ACROSS FROM CARL'S JR.
# 461 Q: DO YOU REMEMBER TELLING THEM IN YOUR STATEMENT THAT IT COULD HAVE BEEN ON WILSHIRE, IT COULD HAVE BEEN ON SANTA MONICA?
# 462 A: IF YOU HAVE IT THERE, YOU CAN SHOW ME. I DON'T REMEMBER.
# 463 MR. SHAPIRO: LET ME SHOW YOU YOUR STATEMENT AND SEE IF IT REFRESHES YOUR MEMORY. THIS IS THE STATEMENT OF KATO KAELIN. IT IS IN YOUR MURDER BOOK, MISS CLARK, PAGE 348. MAY I APPROACH THE WITNESS?
# 464 THE COURT: YOU MAY.
# 465 MS. CLARK: MAY WE HAVE A MOMENT, YOUR HONOR?
# 468 MS. CLARK: EXCUSE ME. WHAT PAGE?
# 469 MR. SHAPIRO: ON PAGE 00348 AND IT IS IN THE THIRD PARAGRAPH.
# 470 MS. CLARK: I DON'T HAVE THAT PAGE, YOUR HONOR. PERHAPS COUNSEL HAS ANOTHER ONE.
# 471 MR. SHAPIRO: PERHAPS ONE OF YOUR DETECTIVES HAS A MURDER BOOK.
# 472 THE COURT: CAN I HAVE ONE OF MY LAW CLERKS MAKE A COPY.
# 474 MR. SHAPIRO: I THINK WE WILL PROBABLY HAVE SOME EXTRA COPIES HERE.
# 475 MS. CLARK: WELL, PERHAPS THEN COUNSEL HAS A CLEAN COPY TO SHOW THE WITNESS. HIS IS UNDERLINED AND MARKED.
# 476 MR. SHAPIRO: I WILL GIVE HIM A BLANK COPY AND I WILL GIVE HER MY COPY SO SHE CAN FIND IT. MAY I APPROACH, YOUR HONOR?
# 477 THE COURT: YOU MAY.
# 478 MR. SHAPIRO: THANK YOU.
# 479 Q: I WANT TO DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION TO THE THIRD PARAGRAPH. IS THIS THE STATEMENT, MR. KAELIN, THAT YOU REVIEWED PRIOR TO GOING INTO THE GRAND JURY?
# 480 A: THIS ONE RIGHT HERE? THAT I CALLED THE CARL'S JR.? DO YOU WANT ME TO READ IT?
# 482 A: "KATO BELIEVES THAT MC DONALD'S WAS ON EITHER WILSHIRE BOULEVARD OR SANTA MONICA BOULEVARD AND RECALLED A CARL'S JR. ACROSS THE STREET."
# 483 Q: THANK YOU. DID YOU TELL THEM THAT?
# 484 A: YES. I REMEMBER THE CARL'S JR.
# 485 Q: DID YOU ALSO TELL THEM THAT IT WAS EITHER ON WILSHIRE OR SANTA MONICA, THE MC DONALD'S?
# 486 A: I WAS LEANING TOWARD SANTA MONICA, BUT THEY WERE TELLING ME ABOUT SANTA MONICA ACROSS FROM CARL'S JR.
# 487 Q: THEY ARE BOTH RELATIVELY CLOSE TOGETHER, AREN'T THEY?
# 488 MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, VAGUE.
# 489 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: HOW CLOSE ARE THEY, THE TWO DIFFERENT MC DONALD'S?
# 490 A: LET'S SEE. WILSHIRE BOULEVARD. I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY STREETS OVER. A FEW MINUTES DRIVE.
# 491 MR. SHAPIRO: THANK YOU. ARE YOU DONE WITH THE REPORT?
# 492 Q: DID O.J. SEEM TO BE IN ANY PARTICULAR HURRY TO GET TO MC DONALD'S?
# 494 Q: WAS THERE ANY RUSH TO GET THROUGH TRAFFIC OR DID HE DRIVE AT A NORMAL PACE?
# 496 Q: DID HE SEEM TO BE AGITATED IN ANY WAY DURING THE DRIVE?
# 498 Q: DID HE SHOW ANY ANGER DURING THE DRIVE?
# 500 Q: DID HE APPEAR TO BE DEPRESSED DURING THE DRIVE?
# 502 Q: WHEN YOU GOT TO MC DONALD'S, DID YOU GO THROUGH THAT DRIVE-THROUGH WINDOW?
# 504 Q: WERE THERE ANY CARS IN FRONT OF YOU THAT YOU RECALL?
# 505 A: NO. I THINK WE WERE THE ONLY CAR, I'M PRETTY SURE.
# 506 Q: YOU ORDERED AND HE ORDERED?
# 508 Q: DID HE APPEAR TO BE HUNGRY?
# 509 A: YES. I MEAN I DON'T -- I KNOW HE ATE RIGHT AWAY, LIKE TEN SECONDS.
# 510 Q: AND DRIVING BACK, DID YOU RUSH IN ANY WAY?
# 512 Q: WAS HE DISTRACTED?
# 514 Q: WAS HE LOOKING AROUND?
# 516 Q: DID HE EXPRESS ANY ANGER?
# 518 Q: NOW, YOU SAY YOU SAW HIS HANDS AT MC DONALD'S AND YOU SAW HIS HANDS WHEN YOU GAVE HIM $20.00 AND THAT YOU DID NOT NOTICE ANY INJURY; IS THAT CORRECT?
# 520 Q: I TAKE IT YOU WEREN'T EXAMINING HIS HANDS FOR INJURIES?
# 521 A: CORRECT. I WAS NOT.
# 522 Q: BUT IF THERE HAD BEEN A SIGNIFICANT INJURY, IT IS YOUR OPINION YOU WOULD HAVE SEEN IT?
# 524 Q: WHAT IF THERE WAS A MINOR SCRATCH OR A SCRAPE, IS THAT SOMETHING YOU WOULD HAVE SEEN?
# 525 A: NOT A MINOR ONE, NO.
KEY QUOTE # 526 Q: AND IN PLAYING BALL AS AN ATHLETE DO YOU SOMETIMES GET SCRATCHES AND CUTS JUST FROM FINGERNAILS, THINGS LIKE THAT?
# 528 Q: AND SOMETIMES DO YOU BLEED A LITTLE BIT FROM THAT?
# 530 Q: DO YOU CONSIDER THAT AN INJURY?
# 532 Q: NOW, ON YOUR WAY BACK TO THE HOUSE, BACK TO ROCKINGHAM, DID HE GO IN ANY DIFFERENT DIRECTION THAN HE NORMALLY WOULD HAVE GONE IN?
# 533 A: IN -- IN THE CAR?
# 535 A: I'M PRETTY SURE WE DID ASHFORD AND PARKED THE CAR.
# 536 Q: NORMAL WAY THAT YOU WOULD COME BACK TO THE HOUSE?
# 538 Q: DID HE SAY ANYTHING TO YOU? "LOOK AT THE TIME. TAKE NOTICE OF CERTAIN EVENTS OF WHAT I'M DOING NOW"?
# 540 Q: AND YOU BOTH GOT OUT OF THE CAR?
# 542 Q: AND EVEN THOUGH YOU WERE IN FRONT OF HIM, HE APPEARED TO BE WALKING TOWARD THE HOUSE, DID HE NOT?
# 543 A: IT WAS -- IT WAS THE DOOR -- I MEAN, HIS FEET WERE POINTED THAT WAY, BUT I WAS KIND OF AT THAT DOOR AND IT WASN'T LIKE A MOVEMENT, BUT IT WAS -- TURNED TOWARDS ME AT THE DOOR. THAT IS WHEN I LOOKED AND I KNEW THAT MAYBE I SHOULDN'T GO TO THE KITCHEN AND I JUST HEADED OUT TO MINE. THAT WAS THE LAST I SAW.
# 544 Q: AND YOU HAVE PREVIOUSLY TESTIFIED THAT HE APPEARED TO BE GOING IN THE HOUSE?
# 545 A: YES. YEAH, HIS FEET WERE POINTED, BUT I DIDN'T LIKE SEE THE MOVEMENT.
# 546 Q: YOU CAN'T TELL US SPECIFICALLY THAT HE WENT IN, BUT YOU HAD NO INDICATION THAT HE DIDN'T?
# 547 MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. THAT CALLS FOR SPECULATION AND VAGUE.
# 548 THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
# 549 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: DID YOU TESTIFY THAT HE APPEARED TO GO INTO THE HOUSE PREVIOUSLY? HAVE YOU SAID THAT?
# 550 A: I DON'T THINK SO.
# 551 MR. SHAPIRO: MAY I JUST HAVE A MOMENT, YOUR HONOR?
# 552 THE COURT: CERTAINLY.
# 554 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: DURING THE RIDE BACK FROM MC DONALD'S, WAS THERE ANY MENTION OF NICOLE?
# 555 A: YES, THAT THE TYPEWRITER, THAT IT WAS NICOLE'S, IF I COULD USE IT.
# 556 Q: NO ANGER OR ANYTHING?
# 558 Q: I WANT TO DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION TO PAGE 92, IF YOU MIGHT.
# 560 MR. SHAPIRO: OF THE GRAND JURY TESTIMONY THAT WAS CONDUCTED I BELIEVE BY MISS CLARK AND MR. CONN. DO YOU HAVE THAT?
# 561 MS. CLARK: AS LONG AS COUNSEL READS THE ENTIRE PASSAGE, I HAVE NO OBJECTION AT ALL.
# 562 MR. SHAPIRO: YOUR HONOR, MAY I APPROACH THE WITNESS?
# 563 THE COURT: YOU MAY.
# 564 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: I WANT TO DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION TOWARDS LINE 13 AND 14 AND ASK YOU WHETHER YOU GAVE THAT TESTIMONY BEFORE THE GRAND JURY?
# 565 MS. CLARK: OBJECTION UNDER 356, YOUR HONOR.
# 566 THE COURT: AS TO JUST THAT -- THOSE LINES? I DON'T HAVE IT BEFORE ME, COUNSEL.
# 567 MS. CLARK: I THINK THAT THE COURT SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO SEE THIS.
# 568 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
# 569 MR. SHAPIRO: I WILL GIVE YOU A COPY, YOUR HONOR.
# 570 MS. CLARK: THIS IS VERY MISLEADING.
# 572 THE COURT: THANK YOU.
# 574 MR. SHAPIRO: YOUR HONOR, I BELIEVE THERE WAS CAUTIONS AGAINST SPEAKING OBJECTIONS.
# 576 THE COURT: AND MR. SHAPIRO, YOU ARE REFRESHING MR. KAELIN'S RECOLLECTION AS TO WHICH LINES?
# 577 MR. SHAPIRO: 13 AND 14, YOUR HONOR.
# 578 MS. CLARK: AND THE PEOPLE DIRECT THE COURT'S ATTENTION TO THE PARAGRAPH ABOVE.
# 579 MR. SHAPIRO: WE HAVE NO OBJECTION TO READING THE WHOLE THING. I AM JUST NOW BEGINNING TO DIRECT HIS ATTENTION TO ONE PORTION, YOUR HONOR.
# 580 THE COURT: VERY WELL. THANK YOU.
# 581 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: MR. KAELIN, DID YOU GET A CHANCE TO READ THAT?
# 583 Q: AND DOES THAT REFRESH YOUR MEMORY AS TO WHAT YOU SAID AT THE GRAND JURY?
# 585 Q: AND WHAT DID YOU SAY THEN?
# 586 MS. CLARK: EXCUSE ME, YOUR HONOR. MAY I SEE -- THIS IS A MARKED COPY -- GOT LINES AND CIRCLES.
# 588 MS. CLARK: PERHAPS THE WITNESS COULD BE GIVEN A CLEAN COPY TO READ FROM.
# 589 THE COURT: I DON'T THINK IT IS MATERIAL AT THIS POINT, COUNSEL.
# 590 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: IT IS NOT CONFUSING THAT THERE IS A CIRCLE IN THE AREA THAT I AM DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION TO?
# 592 MS. CLARK: OBJECTION.
# 593 THE COURT: OVERRULED.
# 594 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN: READ IT.
# 595 THE COURT: PROCEED.
# 596 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: DOES THAT REFRESH YOUR MEMORY?
# 598 Q: REGARDING THAT, WHAT DID YOU TESTIFY TO BEFORE THE GRAND JURY IN THAT REGARD?
# 602 Q: READ IT FROM 13 AND 14 AND THEN WE WILL READ IT FROM THE TOP.
# 603 A: 13: "QUESTION: SO IT APPEARED HE WAS WALKING TOWARDS THE HOUSE?"
# 604 MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. I WOULD ASK THAT THE WHOLE THING BE READ IN CONTEXT.
# 605 THE COURT: OVERRULED. GO AHEAD.
# 606 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN: "ANSWER: YES." AND THEN BEFORE THAT NOW?
# 607 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: NO.
# 609 Q: NOW, YOU DIDN'T SAY THAT AT THE GRAND JURY, THAT HE WALKED TOWARDS THE HOUSE, BUT --
# 610 THE COURT: MISS CLARK.
# 611 MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. I THOUGHT THAT THE COURT --
# 612 THE COURT: HE IS NOT FINISHED ON THIS AREA, COUNSEL.
# 613 MR. SHAPIRO: I'M SORRY, I HAVE LOST MY TRAIN OF THOUGHT. MAY I JUST HAVE A MOMENT, YOUR HONOR?
# 615 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL AND THE DEFENDANT.) # 616 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: NOW, YOU NEVER SPECIFICALLY SAID THAT YOU WERE GOING INTO THE HOUSE, DID YOU?
# 618 Q: YEAH. O.J. WAS GOING INTO THE HOUSE?
# 620 Q: AND WHAT WERE THE QUESTIONS RIGHT BEFORE THAT, DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION TO THE AREA OF ROCKINGHAM AND WHAT O.J. SIMPSON WAS DOING? YOU CAN JUST READ THOSE OUT LOUD.
# 621 A: THE QUESTION WAS: "WHERE WAS HE WHEN YOU LAST SAW HIM? "ANSWER: HE WAS OUT OF THE CAR AND TURNED TOWARDS THE HOUSE. THEN I WAS ON MY OWN. "QUESTION: WAS HE MOVING TOWARD THE HOUSE AT THE TIME? HE WAS" DOT SYMBOL. "I ASSUMED IN MY HEAD HE WAS GOING IN THE HOUSE BUT IT WAS TURNED THAT WAY AND I DIDN'T SEE ANY MOVEMENT BECAUSE I AM ON MY WAY AND I SAID I'M GOING TO MY ROOM."
# 622 Q: AND THE NEXT QUESTION AND ANSWER?
# 623 A: "AND SO IT APPEARED HE WAS WALKING TOWARD THE HOUSE? "YES."
# 624 Q: THANK YOU. IS THAT THE TESTIMONY YOU GAVE REGARDING THAT INCIDENT BEFORE THE GRAND JURY?
# 626 Q: WHEN YOU WERE TALKING TO O.J. SIMPSON ABOUT COMING BACK FROM THE RECITAL, THERE WAS SOME TALK ABOUT CLOTHING, WOMEN'S CLOTHING, WAS THERE NOT?
# 627 (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.) # 628 Q: HOW NICOLE AND HER FRIEND WERE DRESSED AT THE RECITAL?
# 630 Q: AND WAS THIS DONE IN A LIGHT-HANDED MANNER?
# 631 A: KIND OF AS A MATTER OF FACT. KIND OF MATTER OF FACTLY.
# 632 Q: AND WAS THE SUGGESTION MADE "I WONDER WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO BE DRESSING LIKE WHEN THEY ARE GRANDMAS"?
# 633 A: HE SAYS, "THEY CAN'T BE WEARING MINI SKIRTS OR DRESSES LIKE THAT WHEN THEY ARE GRANDMAS."
# 634 Q: DID YOU TAKE HIM TO BE SERIOUS WITH THIS OR TO BE JOKING WITH THIS?
# 635 A: IT WAS -- IT WAS A POINT WHERE, YEAH, IT WAS -- I DIDN'T TAKE IT TO BE SERIOUS. I MEAN, IT WAS A COMMENT THAT HE MADE. I MEAN, IT WAS A POINT THAT HE WAS MAKING ABOUT THEIR OUTFITS.
# 636 Q: BUT YOU DIDN'T TAKE IT TO BE A SERIOUS COMMENT, DID YOU?
# 637 A: WELL, I DIDN'T -- I DIDN'T TAKE IT FOR ME TO BE A SERIOUS COMMENT. I DIDN'T KNOW -- I DON'T THINK IT WAS -- IT WAS -- IT WAS A COMMENT IN PASSING -- IN THAT CONVERSATION, BUT --
# 638 Q: DO YOU RECALL TESTIFYING BEFORE THE GRAND JURY ON PAGE 60 ABOUT THIS AREA?
# 640 MR. SHAPIRO: PAGE 59 AND 60. DO WE HAVE SOME CLEAN COPIES HERE TO AVOID ANY PROBLEMS?
# 641 MR. COCHRAN: WHAT PAGE?
# 642 MR. SHAPIRO: 59 AND 60, GRAND JURY, PLEASE.
# 644 MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR --
# 645 THE COURT: MISS CLARK.
# 646 MS. CLARK: THIS IS NOT IMPEACHING. OBJECTION. HEARSAY.
# 647 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. LET ME SEE COUNSEL AND THE TRANSCRIPT AT THE SIDE BAR, PLEASE.
# 648 (A CONFERENCE WAS HELD AT THE BENCH, NOT REPORTED.) # 649 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT:) # 650 MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, WITHDRAWN.
# 651 THE COURT: MISS CLARK.
# 652 MS. CLARK: WITHDRAW THE OBJECTION.
# 653 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, COUNSEL. PROCEED.
# 654 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: MAY I DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION, MR. KAELIN --
# 656 Q: -- TO LINE 27 AND ASK YOU TO READ THAT THROUGH THE FOLLOWING PAGE, LINE 15.
# 657 A: READ FROM 27 TO 15 ON THE OTHER PAGE?
# 660 Q: THIS IS PAGE 59 OF THE QUESTIONS YOU ARE ANSWERING TO MISS CLARK AND MR. CONN -- MR. CONN BEFORE THE GRAND JURY.
# 661 A: "QUESTION: CAN YOU RECALL WHAT HIS WORDS WERE? "ANSWER: IT WAS ABOUT WEARING TIGHT-FITTING CLOTHES IN REFERENCE," THAT SYMBOL, "GOOD NATURED WOULDN'T YOU WEAR THAT IF THE -- WHEN SHE IS GOING TO BE OLDER, JOKING, LIKE WEARING TIGHT-FITTING CLOTHES, GOOD NATUREDLY, LIKE A GRANDMA. "QUESTION: WHEN YOU SAID 'GOOD NATUREDLY,' THAT IS WHAT HE WAS ACTING LIKE? "ANSWER: YES. "QUESTION: WAS HE LAUGHING? "YEAH. JOKING, LAUGHING. "QUESTION: KIND OF WONDERING WERE YOU GOING TO WEAR THESE WHEN YOU GOT OLDER? "YES. "AND HE WAS MAKING REFERENCE TO TIGHT DRESSES OR OUTFITS? "DRESSES, YEAH. "DID HE SEEM ANGRY WHEN HE SAID THAT? "NO."
# 662 Q: THANK YOU. IS THAT THE TESTIMONY YOU GAVE?
# 664 Q: DOES THAT REFRESH YOUR MEMORY AS TO THAT CONVERSATION?
# 666 Q: I TAKE IT YOUR MEMORY WAS FRESHER REGARDING THAT CONVERSATION WHEN YOU TESTIFIED BEFORE THE GRAND JURY THAN IT IS TODAY TEN MONTHS LATER?
# 667 A: RIGHT, I GUESS IT WOULD BE. THERE IS SO MUCH TIME WHEN -- THAT YOU THINK ABOUT THE THINGS AND SOMETIMES THINGS COME BACK, AND I -- SO WITH THAT COMMENT, I -- I REMEMBER IT BEING MATTER OF FACTLY. WE WEREN'T LIKE LAUGHING, LAUGHING.
# 668 Q: WITH REGARD TO THE COMMENTS ABOUT SYDNEY DURING THAT CONVERSATION, DO YOU RECALL HIM SAYING SHE WAS WONDERFUL, BEAUTIFUL AND HE WAS PROUD OF HER AND THEN AT THE GRAND JURY THEY ASKED YOU "TELL ME HOW HE WAS BEHAVING" --
# 669 MS. CLARK: OBJECTION. THIS IS COMPOUND. COUNSEL IS TESTIFYING. IT IS HEARSAY.
# 670 THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
# 671 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: LET ME SHOW YOU YOUR GRAND JURY TESTIMONY. DO YOU HAVE ANY OBJECTION TO THIS OR DO YOU WANT A CLEAN COPY, TOO. LET ME GIVE YOU A CLEAN COPY.
# 672 MS. CLARK: WHAT PAGE IS COUNSEL REFERRING TO?
# 673 MR. SHAPIRO: PAGE 55 BEFORE THE GRAND JURY.
# 674 MS. CLARK: STILL HEARSAY.
# 675 THE COURT: WHAT IS THE OBJECTION?
# 676 MS. CLARK: HEARSAY.
# 677 THE COURT: LET ME SEE WHAT IT IS.
# 678 MR. SHAPIRO: GOES TO REFRESH HIS MEMORY, YOUR HONOR.
# 679 Q: I WOULD ASK YOU TO READ TO YOURSELF --
# 680 THE COURT: WAIT, WAIT, WAIT, WAIT. WHAT WAS THE LAST QUESTION? MR. SHAPIRO?
# 681 MR. SHAPIRO: YES. I WAS ASKING HIM ABOUT O.J.'S DESCRIPTION OF HIS DAUGHTER AND TO SET THE FOUNDATION. AND THE QUESTION WAS GOING TO BE WHAT WERE -- WHAT WAS HIS DEMEANOR AT THAT TIME, IN RESPONSE TO QUESTIONS BY MISS CLARK.
# 682 THE COURT: YOU ARE ASKING MR. KAELIN TO DESCRIBE THE DEFENDANT'S DEMEANOR WHEN DISCUSSING --
# 684 THE COURT: -- HIS DAUGHTER'S PERFORMANCE?
# 686 MS. CLARK: WHAT DO YOU NEED THE TRANSCRIPT FOR?
# 687 MR. SHAPIRO: TO REFRESH HIS MEMORY BECAUSE HE WAS UNCLEAR IN HIS TESTIMONY.
# 688 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. ASK HIM IF IT REFRESHES HIS RECOLLECTION.
# 690 Q: I WOULD ASK YOU TO READ LINES 10 THROUGH 16, PLEASE.
# 691 THE COURT: TO YOURSELF.
# 692 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN: (WITNESS COMPLIES.) OKAY. OKAY.
# 693 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: DOES THAT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION AS TO YOUR DESCRIPTION OF THE DEMEANOR -- TO O.J.'S -- AS TO YOUR DESCRIPTION OF O.J.'S DEMEANOR AFTER THE CONCERT WHEN TALKING ABOUT HIS DAUGHTER, SYDNEY?
# 695 Q: WOULD YOU READ THAT, PLEASE.
# 696 MS. CLARK: WELL, OBJECTION.
# 697 THE COURT: NO. IF IT REFRESHES HIS RECOLLECTION, NOW HE CAN TESTIFY AS TO WHAT HIS RECOLLECTION IS.
# 698 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: WERE YOU ASKED -- YOU WERE ASKED THE QUESTION --
# 699 MS. CLARK: OBJECTION.
# 700 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: DID O.J. --
# 701 THE COURT: EXCUSE ME. I THINK THE QUESTION IS CAN YOU NOW DESCRIBE HIS DEMEANOR.
# 703 Q: WHAT WAS -- CAN YOU DESCRIBE HIS DEMEANOR?
# 704 A: ABOUT ASKING ABOUT SYDNEY?
# 706 A: IT WAS -- SHE WAS GREAT, THAT -- YEAH, SHE WAS GREAT AND SYDNEY WAS WONDERFUL AT THE --
# 707 MS. CLARK: OBJECTION, NON-RESPONSIVE.
# 708 THE COURT: SUSTAINED. THE QUESTION WAS WHAT WAS HIS DEMEANOR; NOT WHAT HE SAID. WHAT WAS HIS DEMEANOR?
# 709 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN: FINE. IT WAS -- GIVE ME LIKE -- VERY HAPPY, NOT SAD, JUST --
# 710 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: DO YOU RECALL WHAT YOU SAID TO THE GRAND JURY IN RESPONSE TO MISS CLARK'S QUESTIONS?
# 711 A: RELAXED, YES, SO HE WAS RELAXED AND NONCHALANT.
KEY QUOTE # 712 Q: SO THE WORD YOU USED AND MISS CLARK ASKED YOU "DID HE SEEM TO BE AGITATED, UPSET OR NERVOUS" --
# 713 MS. CLARK: YOUR HONOR, OBJECTION. OBJECTION.
# 714 THE COURT: SUSTAINED. THIS IS JUST BEING USED TO REFRESH HIS RECOLLECTION.
# 716 THE COURT: OTHERWISE IT IS HEARSAY.
# 717 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: SO YOUR RECOLLECTION BEFORE THE GRAND JURY WAS THAT HE WAS NONCHALANT AND RELAXED?
# 718 MS. CLARK: EXCUSE ME, YOUR HONOR. IF THE WITNESS HAS REFRESHED HIS RECOLLECTION, MAY HE BE ALLOWED TO REMOVE THAT PIECE OF PAPER, GIVE IT BACK TO COUNSEL AND TESTIFY TO HIS OWN MEMORY?