Redirect examination of Kato Kaelin

📄 Redirect examination of Kato Kaelin — Wednesday, March 22, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\MAR\22\REDIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-KATO-K.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 43 of 167

◀ Direct examination of Kato Kaelin (afternoon, part 4) Sidebar (3) ▶

Witness: Brian "Kato" Kaelin
Examiner: Marcia Clark
Called by: Prosecution • Date: Wednesday, March 22, 1995 • Utterances: 294

Marcia Clark cross-examines Kato Kaelin, pressing on two main fronts: his multiple pre-trial meetings with the defense team (Shapiro, Pavelic, Hostetler) without receiving notes or recordings, and his dramatic surge in acting work since the murders. Clark also extracts testimony about OJ's demeanor after the recital (matter-of-fact that Nicole was 'over,' upset about her outfits), his rushed state before leaving for the airport, his statement 'Kato knows I was in the house,' and the diamond bracelet he gave Nicole then redirected to Paula.

# 1 Q:

WERE YOU EVER SHOWN A COPY OF THOSE NOTES?

# 2 A:

MYSELF, NO.

# 3 Q:

DID THEY EVER SHOW YOU A COPY OF ANY REPORT THEY GENERATED AS A RESULT OF THAT INTERVIEW?

# 4 A:

NOT TO ME, NO.

# 5 Q:

DID MR. SHAPIRO EVER GIVE YOU A COPY OF THE TAPE OF THE INTERVIEW THAT HE CONDUCTED WITH YOU ON JUNE THE 14TH?

# 6 A:

NOT TO ME, NO.

# 7 Q:

DID YOU GET A TRANSCRIPT OF THAT TAPE AT SOME POINT?

# 8 A:

YES.

# 9 Q:

FROM WHO?

# 10 A:

I THINK IT WAS FROM THE -- YOUR OFFICE.

# 11 Q:

NOW, DID YOU HAVE ANOTHER MEETING WITH MEMBERS OF THE DEFENSE TEAM?

# 12 A:

YES.

# 13 Q:

AFTER THAT TWO- TO THREE-HOUR INTERVIEW WITH PAVELIC AND HOSTETLER?

# 14 A:

YES.

# 15 Q:

AND WHEN WAS THAT?

# 16 A:

IT WAS, UH, ABOUT THREE WEEKS AGO, A MONTH AGO, RIGHT AROUND THERE.

# 17 Q:

AND WHO WAS AT THAT MEETING?

# 18 A:

MY -- BILL GENEGO, MY LAWYER, AND ROBERT SHAPIRO AND MYSELF.

# 19 Q:

AND WHO DID YOU SPEAK TO?

# 20 A:

TO ROBERT SHAPIRO.

# 21 Q:

AND HOW LONG WAS THAT FOR?

# 22 A:

CAN I -- THERE WAS ANOTHER ONE ALSO THAT I DIDN'T GO INTO. IT WAS AT THE OFFICES WITH, UMM, ROBERT SHAPIRO AND CARL DOUGLAS AND BILL GENEGO, BUT I WAS AT THE OFFICE, BUT I DIDN'T GO IN TO MEET.

# 23 Q:

OKAY. YOUR LAWYER MET WITH THE DEFENDANT'S LAWYERS?

# 24 A:

THEY -- THEY WENT INTO A MEETING ROOM, YES, BUT I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT WAS ABOUT.

# 25 Q:

AND HOW LONG DID THAT LAST?

# 26 A:

I THINK HALF HOUR, 40 MINUTES.

# 27 Q:

OKAY. AND WAS IT AFTER THAT THAT YOU HAD ANOTHER INTERVIEW WITH MR. SHAPIRO?

# 28 A:

YES.

# 29 Q:

AND WHO WAS PRESENT AT THAT INTERVIEW?

# 30 A:

MYSELF, BILL GENEGO, MY LAWYER, AND ROBERT SHAPIRO.

# 31 Q:

HOW LONG DID THAT INTERVIEW LAST?

# 32 A:

OH, 45 MINUTES TO AN HOUR.

# 33 Q:

AND WAS IT TAPE-RECORDED?

# 34 A:

NO.

# 35 Q:

WAS ANYBODY TAKING ANY NOTES THAT YOU COULD SEE?

# 36 A:

UH, MY LAWYER I THINK TOOK NOTES.

# 37 Q:

WHAT ABOUT MR. SHAPIRO?

# 38 A:

I DON'T -- I DON'T KNOW. I DON'T KNOW IF HE DID OR NOT. HE WAS GOING THROUGH, UH, PAPERS.

# 39 Q:

UH-HUH. DID HE HAVE AN INVESTIGATOR THERE?

# 40 A:

NO.

# 41 Q:

AND HOW LONG WAS THAT INTERVIEW FOR?

# 42 A:

ABOUT 45 MINUTES TO AN HOUR.

# 43 Q:

AND WHEN DID THAT LAST INTERVIEW, THAT INTERVIEW WITH MR. SHAPIRO TAKE PLACE?

# 44 A:

LIKE THREE WEEKS AGO TO A MONTH. THREE WEEKS AGO I THINK. RIGHT AROUND --

# 45 Q:

DID YOU HAVE ANOTHER INTERVIEW AFTER THAT WITH MR. SHAPIRO?

# 46 A:

NO.

# 47 Q:

YOU CONSIDER YOURSELF THE DEFENDANT'S FRIEND, DON'T YOU, MR. KAELIN?

# 48 A:

UH, YES.

# 49 Q:

YOU DID BACK IN JANUARY OF '94?

# 50 A:

YES.

# 51 Q:

YOU DID IN JUNE OF '94?

# 52 A:

YES.

# 53 Q:

AND YOU STILL DO?

# 54 A:

I -- I'M STILL A FRIEND. I'M -- I KNOW -- I KNOW MY JOB IS TO BE A HUNDRED PERCENT HONEST, AND THAT'S WHAT I'M GOING TO DO.

KEY QUOTE

# 55 Q:

SINCE THE MURDERS OF RON GOLDMAN AND NICOLE BROWN, CAN YOU TELL US HOW MANY ACTING JOBS YOU'VE ACQUIRED?

# 56 A:

UMM, I THINK FOUR. YOU HAVE -- DO YOU WANT ME TO NAME THEM THAT I KNOW? TALK SOUP.

# 57 Q:

THAT WAS ON E CHANNEL?

# 58 A:

# 59 Q:

YOU HOSTED THAT SHOW?

# 60 A:

YES. THERE WAS A SHOW CALLED THE WATCHER THAT I JUST DID.

KEY QUOTE

# 61 Q:

YOU HAD A ROLE IN THAT SHOW DID YOU?

# 62 A:

YES. THERE WAS A -- THE U.S.A. TODAY.

KEY QUOTE

# 63 Q:

AND WHAT WAS THAT?

# 64 A:

IT WAS LIKE A HOSTING JOB.

# 65 Q:

YOU HOSTED THAT JOB DID YOU?

# 66 A:

YES, WITH A COMEDIAN WOMAN.

# 67 Q:

WHAT ELSE?

# 68 A:

I DID A CURRENT AFFAIR PIECE.

# 69 Q:

AND WHAT DID THAT PIECE CONSIST OF?

# 70 A:

JUST ABOUT MYSELF. NOTHING ABOUT THE CASE.

# 71 Q:

DID YOU DISCUSS YOUR ROLE AS A WITNESS THOUGH? NOT THE TESTIMONY THAT YOU WERE GOING TO GIVE, BUT THE FACT THAT YOU WERE A WITNESS?

# 72 A:

WELL, I DIDN'T SAY -- THEY KNEW I WAS A WITNESS. I DIDN'T TALK ABOUT BEING A WITNESS. IT WAS ME SAYING -- I MEAN THEY KNEW I WAS A WITNESS. I SAID THINGS -- I NEVER SAW IT, THE SHOW. I DON'T KNOW WHAT WENT ON, BUT, UH, THEY KNEW I WAS A WITNESS AND YES, THERE WAS LIKE MEET --

# 73 Q:

THERE WAS SOME DISCUSSION OF THAT?

# 74 A:

YES.

# 75 Q:

AND HOW MANY SEGMENTS WAS THAT?

# 76 A:

I DID IT IN A DAY AND A HALF.

# 77 Q:

DO YOU KNOW OVER HOW MANY DAYS IT AIRED ON THE TELEVISION?

# 78 A:

THREE.

# 79 Q:

OKAY. AND WHAT ELSE DID YOU DO?

# 80 A:

UMM -- UMM, WHAT IS --

# 81 Q:

ANY FEATURE FILMS?

# 82 A:

YEAH. ONE CALLED FOR LIFE OR DEATH.

# 83 Q:

WHAT KIND OF ROLE? LEADING ROLE? SUPPORTING ROLE?

# 84 A:

SUPPORTING.

# 85 Q:

AND ANYTHING ELSE?

# 86 A:

I THINK THAT'S IT.

# 87 Q:

DO YOU HAVE ANYTHING PLANNED FOR THE FUTURE ON TELEVISION?

# 88 A:

I HOPE SO. I MEAN I HAVE -- ON T.V., THERE'S A FILM SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN. IT'S THE 16TH MINUTE --

# 89 Q:

UH-HUH.

# 90 A:

-- IF IT'S GOING TO GO -- NOTHING IS SET.

# 91 Q:

AND ARE YOU GOING TO PLAY A LEADING ROLE IN THAT?

# 92 A:

UH, THAT HASN'T BEEN DECIDED, BUT PROBABLY.

# 93 Q:

AND WHAT ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE YOU'VE DONE ON TELEVISION THAT'S GOING TO AIR? FOX T.V.?

# 94 A:

OH, THAT'S GO -- A VOICE, A VOICE OVER.

# 95 Q:

FOR AN ANIMATED SERIES?

# 96 A:

CARTOON CALLED EEK THE CAT.

# 97 MS. CLARK:

YOUR HONOR, MAY I BE PERMITTED TO GO OVER SO I CAN COMPLETE THIS, FOR A FEW MINUTES?

# 98 THE COURT:

A LITTLE. HOW MUCH OVER?

# 99 MS. CLARK:

FIVE MINUTES.

# 100 THE COURT:

GO.

# 101 MS. CLARK:

THANK YOU. OOPS. SIX MINUTES.

# 102

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.) Q: BY MS. CLARK: NOW, YOU'VE BEEN ATTEMPTING TO ESTABLISH YOURSELF IN THE FIELD OF ACTING FOR HOW MANY YEARS, SIR?

# 103 A:

A LONG TIME.

# 104 Q:

MORE THAN 10 YEARS?

# 105 A:

YES.

# 106 Q:

WOULD IT BE FAIR TO SAY THAT YOU'VE HAD MORE ACTING ROLES IN THE LAST NINE MONTHS SINCE THE MURDERS OF RON GOLDMAN AND NICOLE BROWN THAN YOU HAVE IN THE LAST 10 YEARS?

# 107 A:

YES.

# 108 Q:

WHEN THE DEFENDANT CAME BACK FROM THE RECITAL ON JUNE THE 12TH AFTER SEEING NICOLE, WHAT WAS HIS DEMEANOR?

# 109 A:

FROM THE RECITAL?

# 110 Q:

THAT'S RIGHT.

# 111 A:

HE WAS UPSET ABOUT NOT BEING ABLE TO SEE SIDNEY AND HE MENTIONED THE COMMENT ABOUT THE OUTFITS.

# 112 Q:

AND WAS HE UPSET ABOUT -- WAS HE ANGRY WITH NICOLE?

# 113 MR. SHAPIRO:

OBJECTION. LEADING.

# 114 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

IT --

# 115 THE COURT:

HOLD ON. HOLD ON. SUSTAINED. REPHRASE THE QUESTION.

# 116 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: WHAT WAS HIS ATTITUDE ABOUT NICOLE?

# 117 A:

WELL, IT WAS OVER, THE RELATIONSHIP WAS OVER WAS MENTIONED, THAT NICOLE AND HIM WERE NO LONGER TOGETHER.

# 118 Q:

AND IN WHAT TONE OF VOICE DID HE SAY THAT?

# 119 A:

IT WAS MATTER OF FACT, "NICOLE AND I ARE OVER."

KEY QUOTE

# 120 Q:

HE WAS NOT ANGRY WITH HER?

# 121 A:

IT WASN'T -- I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN BY ANGRY, WHAT ANGER IS.

# 122 Q:

WAS HE YELLING?

# 123 A:

NO.

# 124 Q:

WAS HE SCREAMING?

# 125 A:

NO.

# 126 Q:

HAVE YOU EVER TOLD ANYBODY THAT HE WAS YELLING AND SCREAMING ABOUT NICOLE WHEN HE CAME BACK FROM THE RECITAL ON JUNE THE 12TH?

# 127 A:

NO.

# 128 Q:

WHAT ABOUT HIS DEMEANOR WHEN HE LEFT, WAS GETTING READY TO LEAVE FOR THE AIRPORT AFTER 11:00 O'CLOCK? HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE IT?

# 129 A:

RUSHED.

# 130 Q:

IN A HURRY?

# 131 A:

YES.

# 132 Q:

DID HE SEEM TO BE AGITATED OR UPSET?

# 133 A:

THAT HE WAS IN A RUSH. DEFINITELY WAS TRYING TO HURRY.

# 134 Q:

DID HE SEEM VERY FRAZZLED?

# 135 A:

WELL, WE -- WE TRIED TO GET THE FLASHLIGHT. WE DIDN'T GET THE FLASHLIGHT. IT WAS OOP, DIDN'T GET IT AND HE WENT TO THE LIMO.

# 136 Q:

UH-HUH.

# 137 A:

AND "FRAZZLED" I DON'T THINK WAS THE WORD, BUT HE DIDN'T SET THE ALARM. SO HIS MIND WAS ELSEWHERE FOR NOT SETTING THE ALARM.

# 138 Q:

WAS -- WAS HIS DEMEANOR AT THAT TIME UNUSUAL BASED ON WHAT YOU HAD SEEN OF HIM ON PRIOR OCCASIONS?

# 139 A:

WELL, THAT'S ONE OF THE FIRST TIMES I'VE SEEN HIM LIKE LATE FOR SOMETHING LIKE A FLIGHT. SO I CAN'T COMPARE TO. BUT YEAH, HE WAS IN A HURRY AND IT WAS -- IT WAS FRAZZLED TO GET IN THE CAR.

# 140 Q:

DO YOU RECALL TELLING ANYONE THAT HE WAS MORE NERVOUS AND FRAZZLED THAN YOU HAD EVER SEEN HIM BEFORE, THAT YOU HAD NEVER SEEN HIM IN THAT CONDITION BEFORE?

# 141 A:

NO. I DIDN'T SAY THAT.

# 142 Q:

WHEN YOU SPOKE TO THE DEFENDANT BEFORE THE RECITAL, DO YOU RECALL THE SUBJECT MATTER OF HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH NICOLE COMING UP?

# 143 A:

THAT CAME UP A FEW TIMES, THAT IT WAS OVER, THE RELATIONSHIP WAS OVER.

# 144 Q:

CAME UP A FEW TIMES DURING THAT DAY DID IT?

# 145 A:

YES. IT CAME UP -- JUST THAT WAS PART OF THE CONVERSATION. IT WAS, UH, THAT, UH, YOU KNOW, HE HAD A WHITE PICKET -- HE WANTED A WHITE PICKET FENCE, A FAMILY, BUT IT WAS OVER AND HE WASN'T SURE ABOUT PAULA, IF SHE WAS THE ONE.

KEY QUOTE

# 146 Q:

UH-HUH. AND WHEN HE MADE THOSE STATEMENTS ABOUT IT BEING OVER WITH NICOLE, WAS HE ANGRY?

# 147 A:

I THINK HE WAS -- SAYING IT WAS OVER, IT COULD HAVE BEEN INSIDE, BUT I CAN'T -- I COULDN'T THINK FOR HIM WHAT HE WAS -- WHAT HE WAS THINKING. HE COULD HAVE BEEN UPSET AND ANGRY.

# 148 MR. SHAPIRO:

MOTION TO STRIKE THAT AS CALLING FOR SPECULATION.

# 149 THE COURT:

NO. AS BEING NONRESPONSIVE. MOTION IS GRANTED. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, YOU ARE TO DISREGARD THAT LAST COMMENT.

# 150 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: WHEN HE MADE THOSE STATEMENTS THAT WE REFERRED TO ABOUT NICOLE, CAN YOU DESCRIBE HIS BODY LANGUAGE?

# 151 A:

THERE'S -- THERE'S DIFFERENT TIMES. ONE WAS SITTING AT A CHAIR.

# 152 Q:

LET ME ASK YOU THIS, SIR.

# 153 A:

OKAY.

# 154 MR. SHAPIRO:

I'M GOING TO OBJECT TO THE VAGUENESS OF THAT QUESTION.

# 155 THE COURT:

WELL, WE'RE GOING ON TO SOMETHING -- THERE WAS A NONRESPONSIVE ANSWER TO THE QUESTION. SO WE'LL IGNORE IT AT THIS POINT.

# 156 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: WHEN HE MADE THE REMARK TO YOU AFTER THE RECITAL ABOUT NICOLE AND HER TIGHT DRESSES, DID HE CLENCH HIS TEETH?

# 157 MR. SHAPIRO:

OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. LEADING.

# 158 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 159 MS. CLARK:

OTHERWISE IT'S GOING TO BE VAGUE.

# 160 THE COURT:

REPHRASE THE QUESTION.

# 161 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: WHAT WAS THE DEFENDANT'S PHYSICAL DEMEANOR, HIS PHYSICAL BODY MOVEMENTS WHEN HE TALKED TO YOU ABOUT NICOLE WEARING TIGHT DRESSES?

# 162 MR. SHAPIRO:

OBJECTION. COMPOUND, ASSUMES FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE.

# 163 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 164 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: YOU CAN ANSWER.

# 165 THE COURT:

YOU CAN ANSWER THE QUESTION.

# 166 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

OH, THAT HE WAS UPSET, HE MADE A POINT TO SAY THE TIGHT DRESSES THAT I MENTIONED BEFORE.

# 167 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: DID YOU SEE HIM CLENCH HIS FISTS OR HIS TEETH?

# 168 A:

I DIDN'T SEE -- I DIDN'T SEE LIKE THAT, CLENCHING HIS -- HIS FISTS OR HIS TEETH. HE WAS UPSET AND IT WAS LIKE, "OH, THOSE -- WEARING THOSE TIGHT OUTFITS WHEN I MENTIONED -- WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO DO WHEN THEY'RE GRANDMAS?"

# 169 Q:

UH-HUH.

# 170 MS. CLARK:

IT'S GOING TO TAKE A LITTLE LONGER THAN I THOUGHT, YOUR HONOR. I GIVE UP.

# 171 THE COURT:

FIVE MINUTES, 10 MINUTES?

# 172 MS. CLARK:

15 OR 20 I THINK. I'M SORRY. I WAS HOPEFUL, BUT --

# 173 MR. SHAPIRO:

I HAVE NO OBJECTION TO FINISHING.

# 174 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. LET'S FINISH.

# 175 THE COURT REPORTER:

I NEED TO CHANGE PAPER.

# 176 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT.

# 177 (BRIEF PAUSE.)

# 178 THE COURT:

1492, WHAT'S OUR -- JUROR NO. 1492: I NEED ANOTHER NOTEBOOK.

# 179 THE COURT:

NEED ANOTHER NOTEBOOK. DEPUTY MAGNERA, ANOTHER NOTEBOOK. NEED TWO? JUST ONE. JUST 1492? ARE YOU USING BOTH SIDES?

# 180 (BRIEF PAUSE.)

# 181 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. MADAM REPORTER, ARE YOU READY?

# 182 THE COURT REPORTER:

YES, YOUR HONOR.

# 183

THE COURT: MISS CLARK. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

# 184 MS. CLARK:

MAY I HAVE A MOMENT, YOUR HONOR?

# 185 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

# 186 THE COURT:

LET ME JUST ADVISE COUNSEL, BECAUSE OF THE ARRANGEMENTS WITH THE JURY, WE DO HAVE AN ABSOLUTE 4:00 O'CLOCK LIMIT TODAY.

# 187 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: WHEN YOU WENT BACK TO ROCKINGHAM AFTER GOING TO GRANT CRAMER'S HOUSE, WHAT WAS THE FIRST THING -- AND YOU SAW THE DEFENDANT THERE.

# 188 A:

ON MONDAY?

# 189 Q:

YES.

# 190 A:

OKAY.

# 191 Q:

WHAT WAS THE FIRST THING HE SAID TO YOU?

# 192 MR. SHAPIRO:

OBJECTION. HE'S ALREADY DESCRIBED IT FOR THE RECORD.

# 193 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 194 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

THAT WE WERE WATCHING T.V., BUT THAT -- THE T.V. WAS ON AND I WAS ON THE SIDE, BUT NO ONE KNEW I WAS IN THE ROOM YET. AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT STATION IT WAS, BUT, UH, THEY WERE DOING A TIME FRAME AND IT WAS JUST ABOUT THE -- THE TRIP TO MC DONALD'S AND IT MENTIONED SOMETHING ABOUT THE TIME FRAME AND THAT THEY MENTIONED A TIME. THE TIME WAS ABOUT 9:00, 9:40 THAT I HAD NOT SEEN HIM, AND O.J. SAID THAT -- HE SAID, "NO, KATO KNOWS THAT I WAS -- I WAS IN THE HOUSE."

# 195 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: AND WHAT DID HE SAY TO YOU?

# 196 A:

THAT -- THAT WAS IT. "KATO, YOU KNOW I WAS IN THE HOUSE."

KEY QUOTE

# 197 Q:

DO YOU RECALL TELLING GRANT CRAMER THAT THE DEFENDANT SAID TO YOU, "OH, THANK GOD, YOU CAN TELL THEM I WAS HOME ALL THE TIME"?

# 198 A:

NO. THAT'S -- BUT I SAID IT, THAT, "KATO KNOWS THAT I WAS HOME."

# 199 Q:

THAT'S WHAT HE SAID?

# 200 MR. SHAPIRO:

THAT MISSTATES THE TESTIMONY.

# 201 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 202 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: IS THAT WHAT HE SAID?

# 203 A:

YES.

# 204 Q:

AND YOUR RESPONSE WAS?

# 205 A:

THAT I DIDN'T SEE AND -- GO IN THE HOUSE BECAUSE I WENT TO MY GUEST ROOM.

# 206 Q:

UH-HUH. WHEN YOU WERE TALKING TO THE DEFENDANT ABOUT -- EARLIER IN THE DAY ABOUT PLAYING GOLF AND PLAYING CARDS, HE TALKED TO YOU ABOUT HIS GOLF GAME?

# 207 A:

UH, IT COULD HAVE BEEN THE FACT THAT HE GOLFED. I ASKED HIM HOW HE DID. HE SAID HE DID OKAY.

# 208 Q:

HE SAID HE DID OKAY?

# 209 A:

I THINK SO, YEAH.

# 210 Q:

DID HE COMPLAIN ABOUT ANY PAIN IN HIS ARMS OR HIS HANDS AT THAT TIME?

# 211 A:

NO.

# 212 Q:

LATER ON IN THE EVENING, DID HE COMPLAIN, WHEN YOU WENT TO MC DONALD'S, ABOUT HAVING CUT OR BRUISED HIS HANDS IN ANY WAY?

# 213 A:

NO.

# 214 Q:

WHEN HE REFERRED TO NICOLE BEFORE THE RECITAL, WHAT WORDS DID HE USE TO DESCRIBE HER?

# 215 A:

BEFORE THE 2:30 HOUR OR SO? UMM, THERE WASN'T LIKE A LOT OF TALK ABOUT IT THAT HOUR. IT WAS -- THE 2:30 HOUR WAS KIND OF CASUAL TALK ABOUT THE GOLF GAME. IT WAS -- YOU KNOW, THEY WERE OVER. I MEAN I'VE HEARD THAT BEFORE. SO I NEVER, YOU KNOW, GAVE IT MUCH -- OH, IT'S OVER AGAIN OR NOT BECAUSE THEY GOT BACK AND FORTH, IT WAS BACK AND FORTH. SO IT WAS LIKE, YOU KNOW, YOU NEVER KNEW IF IT WAS OVER OR NOT.

# 216 Q:

UH-HUH.

# 217 A:

I MEAN I DIDN'T KNOW.

# 218 Q:

DID THIS TIME SEEM DIFFERENT TO YOU?

# 219 A:

NOT AT THE 2:30, NO.

# 220 Q:

WHEN DID IT SEEM DIFFERENT TO YOU?

# 221 MR. SHAPIRO:

OBJECTION. ASSUMES A FACT NOT IN EVIDENCE.

# 222 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

WELL, I --

# 223 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED. REPHRASE THE QUESTION.

# 224 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: WHEN, IF EVER, DID IT SEEM DIFFERENT TO YOU?

# 225 A:

SEE, THAT'S WHAT I DON'T KNOW. AND DIFFERENT, BECAUSE IT WAS OFF AND ON A LOT.

# 226 Q:

YOU SAID NOT AT 2:30, IT DID NOT SEEM LIKE THIS TIME IT WAS DIFFERENT.

# 227 A:

WELL, AFTER THAT, THE RECITAL, THERE WAS A COMMENT ABOUT SOMETHING THAT WAS MORE DIRECT ABOUT THE DRESSES. BUT STILL, THAT -- THAT DIDN'T -- THAT DIDN'T REALLY MEAN IT WAS OVER. IN MY HEAD, I WAS THINKING THAT MAYBE IT'S OVER FOR THAT DAY OR TWO, BUT I COULDN'T, YOU KNOW, ASSUME THAT IT WAS OVER FOR GOOD.

# 228 Q:

DID THE DEFENDANT EVER TELL YOU ABOUT A BRACELET HE BOUGHT FOR NICOLE IN MAY OF 1994 FOR HER BIRTHDAY?

# 229 A:

I KNEW SOMETHING ABOUT A BRACELET, BUT I DON'T KNOW THE WHOLE STORY ON THE BRACELET.

# 230 Q:

WHAT DID THE DEFENDANT TELL YOU ABOUT THAT?

# 231 MR. SHAPIRO:

OBJECTION. CALLS FOR HEARSAY.

# 232 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 233 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

FROM WHAT I REMEMBER, AND IT'S NOT EXACTLY, IS THAT THE BRACELET WAS FOR NICOLE AND I THOUGHT IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN A BIRTHDAY GIFT BECAUSE HER BIRTHDAY WAS IN MAY.

# 234 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: AND WAS IT -- DID HE DESCRIBE IT TO YOU AT ALL?

# 235 A:

I DON'T REMEMBER THAT. I -- I KNOW IT WAS DIAMONDS AND EXPENSIVE, BUT I DON'T -- I'M NOT INTO JEWELRY, SO I DIDN'T PAY ATTENTION REALLY.

# 236 Q:

SO HE TOLD YOU HE BOUGHT HER AN EXPENSIVE DIAMOND BRACELET FOR HER BIRTHDAY IN MAY OF 1994; IS THAT RIGHT?

# 237 A:

UH-HUH. AT SOME POINT, I KNEW ABOUT A BRACELET. I DON'T THINK SPECIFICALLY HE TOLD ME. I THINK I HEARD HE BOUGHT HER A BRACELET.

# 238 Q:

DID HE TELL YOU WHAT EVER HAPPENED WITH THAT BRACELET?

# 239 MR. SHAPIRO:

OBJECTION. IRRELEVANT.

# 240 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 241 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

THAT I KNOW IT WENT TO PAULA.

# 242 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: THE DEFENDANT GAVE IT TO PAULA AFTER HE GAVE IT TO NICOLE?

# 243 A:

I BELIEVE SO.

# 244 Q:

AND DO YOU KNOW HOW THE DEFENDANT CAME TO HAVE THAT BRACELET BACK AFTER HE GAVE IT TO NICOLE?

# 245 A:

I DON'T. I THINK IT WAS GIVEN BACK.

# 246 MR. SHAPIRO:

OBJECTION. MOTION TO STRIKE.

# 247 THE COURT:

SUSTAIN. JURORS TO DISREGARD THAT AS BEING A SPECULATIVE ANSWER.

# 248 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: DURING THE -- DURING THE AFTERNOON, DID THE DEFENDANT COMPLAIN TO YOU THAT HE WAS UNABLE TO SHUFFLE THE CARDS AT THE COUNTRY CLUB THAT DAY WHEN HE PLAYED CARDS AFTER PLAYING GOLF?

# 249 MR. SHAPIRO:

OBJECTION. LEADING AND SUGGESTIVE.

# 250 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 251 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: DO YOU RECALL HAVING ANY CONVERSATIONS ABOUT THE PHYSICAL CONDITION OF THE DEFENDANT'S HANDS AT THE RIVIERA COUNTRY CLUB ON THE DATE OF JUNE THE 12TH?

# 252 A:

NO.

# 253 Q:

YOU AND THE DEFENDANT, WHEN YOU WALKED OUT TO MC DONALD'S, DID YOU WALK BEHIND HIM? WHEN YOU WALKED OUT TO GO TO THE CAR TO GO TO MC DONALD'S, DID YOU WALK BEHIND HIM?

# 254 A:

YES.

# 255 Q:

AND DID YOU WALK THROUGH THE POOL AREA BEHIND HIM?

# 256 MR. SHAPIRO:

OBJECTION. LEADING.

# 257 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 258 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

THE POOL -- WE WALKED TO THE BACK DOOR --

# 259 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: YES.

# 260 A:

-- AND THROUGH THE BAR AREA.

# 261 Q:

OKAY.

# 262 A:

YES.

# 263 Q:

AND YOU WERE WALKING BEHIND HIM, WERE YOU?

# 264 A:

YES.

# 265 Q:

AND DID YOU -- AND WHERE DID YOU WALK THEN?

# 266 A:

TO THE KITCHEN NOOK OUT THE DOOR TO THE CAR.

# 267 Q:

AND YOU WERE WALKING BEHIND HIM THE WHOLE TIME?

# 268 A:

YEAH. PRETTY MUCH SO. I THINK HE WAS LEADING.

# 269 Q:

OKAY. DID HE WALK FUNNY?

# 270 A:

NO.

# 271 Q:

WAS HE LIMPING?

# 272 A:

NO.

# 273 Q:

AND WHEN YOU GOT INTO THE CAR, YOU WENT TO -- YOU INDICATED YOU WENT TO A MC DONALD'S ON SANTA MONICA BOULEVARD?

# 274 A:

YES.

# 275 Q:

IS THAT THE CLOSEST MC DONALD'S TO ROCKINGHAM?

# 276 A:

NO.

# 277 Q:

WHICH ONE IS CLOSER?

# 278 A:

THERE -- THERE IS ONE ON I BELIEVE WILSHIRE.

# 279 Q:

ON WILSHIRE?

# 280 A:

YES.

# 281 Q:

BUT YOU DIDN'T GO TO THAT ONE?

# 282 A:

NO.

# 283 Q:

WHO CHOSE THE MC -- WHICH MC DONALD'S TO GO TO? WHO CHOSE THE PLACE TO GO AND EAT?

# 284 A:

O.J.

# 285 Q:

AND YOU'RE SURE YOU DID NOT GO TO BURGER KING?

# 286 A:

OH, YES.

# 287 Q:

YOU WENT TO MC DONALD'S?

# 288 A:

NO. MC DONALD'S.

# 289 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

# 290 MS. CLARK:

MAY I HAVE A MOMENT, YOUR HONOR?

# 291 THE COURT:

CERTAINLY.

# 292 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

# 293 MS. CLARK:

MAY WE APPROACH?

# 294 THE COURT:

YES, WITHOUT THE COURT REPORTER.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (5)

Kato Kaelin

I'M STILL A FRIEND. I'M -- I KNOW -- I KNOW MY JOB IS TO BE A HUNDRED PERCENT HONEST, AND THAT'S WHAT I'M GOING TO DO.

Kato's awkward attempt to reconcile loyalty to OJ with his oath as a witness — captures his equivocal position throughout the trial.

Kato Kaelin

YES.

His one-word confirmation that he'd gotten more acting work in the nine months since the murders than in the prior ten years — Clark's most damaging bias-establishing moment of the examination.

Kato Kaelin

NICOLE AND I ARE OVER.

Kaelin quoting OJ's exact words after the recital — matter-of-fact tone undercuts defense narrative that OJ was not fixated on Nicole.

Kato Kaelin

KATO, YOU KNOW I WAS IN THE HOUSE.

OJ's statement to Kaelin while watching news coverage — an attempt to use Kato as an alibi witness, which Kaelin immediately qualified by saying he didn't see OJ actually enter the house.

Kato Kaelin

HE WAS UPSET AND IT WAS LIKE, 'OH, THOSE -- WEARING THOSE TIGHT OUTFITS WHEN I MENTIONED -- WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO DO WHEN THEY'RE GRANDMAS?'

Kaelin recounting OJ's agitated comment about Nicole's clothing after the recital — evidence of fixation and anger toward Nicole hours before the murders.

Evidence (3)

Informal

Tape recording of Shapiro's June 14 interview with Kaelin

discussed — Kaelin confirmed he never received a copy from Shapiro, only got transcript from the DA's office

Informal

Diamond bracelet OJ gave Nicole for her May 1994 birthday, later given to Paula Barbieri

discussed — establishes OJ's volatile relationship dynamic with Nicole

Informal

Pavelic and Hostetler interview notes/report from defense investigation

discussed — Kaelin confirmed he was never shown the notes or report generated

Notable Exchanges (4)

Marcia Clark•Kato Kaelin

Clark methodically catalogs Kato's post-murder acting career — Talk Soup, The Watcher, USA Today hosting, A Current Affair, For Life or Death film, Eek the Cat voice-over, and a planned film called The 16th Minute — then gets Kaelin to confirm he got more work in nine months than in ten prior years.

strategic

Marcia Clark•Kato Kaelin

Clark probes OJ's statement 'Kato knows I was in the house' made while watching news coverage. Kaelin confirms the quote but immediately qualifies it — he never saw OJ enter the house because he went to his own guest room.

revealing

Marcia Clark•Kato Kaelin•Robert Shapiro

Clark repeatedly attempts to get Kaelin to describe OJ clenching his fists or teeth after the recital. Shapiro objects to leading questions; Clark is sustained but eventually gets Kaelin to confirm OJ 'was upset' about Nicole's outfits without the physical specifics.

contested

Marcia Clark•Kato Kaelin

Clark establishes that OJ chose to drive past the closer Wilshire McDonald's to go to the Santa Monica location on the night of the murders.

procedural

Light Moments (3)

Marcia Clark

Clark promises Judge Ito she only needs five minutes to finish, then immediately revises to six, then later admits she needs 15-20 minutes — 'I was hopeful, but —'

Lance A. Ito

Juror 1492 interrupts proceedings to request a new notebook; Ito confirms whether they need one or two and whether they're using both sides.

Kato Kaelin

Kaelin earnestly lists his acting credits including a voice role on the animated cat cartoon 'Eek the Cat' on Fox.

Credibility Attacks (3)

⚔ Kato Kaelin

bias — personal benefit from case notoriety

Clark establishes that Kaelin, a struggling actor for over a decade, landed four acting jobs (including TV hosting and a feature film) and additional projects in the nine months since the murders, getting him to confirm he'd achieved more in that period than in the prior ten years.

⚔ Kato Kaelin

bias — friendship with defendant

Clark opens this line of attack by getting Kaelin to confirm he considered OJ a friend in January 1994, June 1994, and still does — framing his reluctance to characterize OJ's anger as protective loyalty.

⚔ Kato Kaelin

prior inconsistent statement

Clark asks whether Kaelin told anyone OJ was 'more nervous and frazzled than you had ever seen him before' before the airport departure — Kaelin denies it, but the question puts the more damaging characterization before the jury.

Witness Demeanor

Hesitant and circuitous — frequently begins answers with 'UMM,' restarts sentences, and qualifies nearly every statement

Noticeably evasive when asked to characterize OJ's emotional state, repeatedly retreating to 'I can't think for him'

Cooperative in tone but consistently softens damaging answers (e.g., 'frazzled' becomes 'in a hurry'; anger becomes 'upset')

Objections

13 objections (6 sustained, 6 overruled)

Proceeding 5384 • 294 utterances • Prosecution witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103