Cross-examination of Mark Fuhrman (morning, part 2)

📄 Cross-examination of Mark Fuhrman (morning, part 2) — Monday, March 13, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\MAR\13\CROSS-EXAMINATION-OF-MARK-FUHR.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 36 of 167

◀ Sidebar Cross-examination of Mark Fuhrman (morning, part 3) ▶

Witness: Det. Mark Fuhrman
Examiner: F. Lee Bailey
Called by: Prosecution • Date: Monday, March 13, 1995 • Utterances: 506

F. Lee Bailey continues cross-examining Detective Mark Fuhrman, methodically reconstructing the minute-by-minute timeline of his movements at the Bundy crime scene from 2:10 a.m. onward, pressing him on police procedures followed (and not followed) that night. The latter portion of the examination pivots sharply to Kathleen Bell, a witness the defense intends to call, with Bailey establishing that Fuhrman visited a Marine recruiting station around 1986, denies meeting Bell there, and then identifying a photograph of her (Defense 1053) as the woman he watched briefly on the Larry King show.

# 1 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT:)

# 2 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, COUNSEL. MR. BAILEY, YOU MAY PROCEED.

# 3 Q:

BY MR. BAILEY: HOW LONG DID IT TAKE YOU TO DRIVE INTO THE WEST LOS ANGELES POLICE STATION IN YOUR AUTOMOBILE?

# 4 A:

20, 25 MINUTES.

# 5 Q:

DURING THE TIME THAT YOU WERE DRIVING TO THE WEST LOS ANGELES POLICE STATION, WERE YOU THINKING ABOUT THE INVESTIGATION THAT WAS ABOUT TO UNFOLD?

# 6 A:

I WAS THINKING ABOUT, YES, THINGS THAT WERE --

# 7 Q:

WERE YOU THINKING ABOUT THE FACT THAT IN ALL PROBABILITY, THERE MIGHT BE GREAT MEDIA ATTENTION TO THIS PARTICULAR HOMICIDE IF THE VICTIM WAS AS DESCRIBED?

# 8 A:

I DIDN'T GIVE ANY THOUGHT TO THAT AT THAT TIME.

# 9 Q:

DID YOU CONTEMPLATE IN ANY WAY THAT THE CRIME SCENE WOULD BE CRAWLING WITH NEWS MEDIA THE MINUTE THE DISCOVERY WAS MADE THAT THE VICTIM WAS MR. SIMPSON'S WIFE, IF IT WERE?

# 10 A:

I DIDN'T THINK ABOUT THAT ON THE WAY IN, NO.

# 11 Q:

NOW, WHEN YOU ARRIVED AT THE POLICE STATION, YOU AND DETECTIVE PHILLIPS -- AND BY THE WAY, WHO GOT THERE FIRST, IF YOU REMEMBER?

# 12 A:

I DON'T, SIR.

# 13 Q:

WHEN YOU ARRIVED AT THE POLICE STATION, WHAT DID YOU FIRST DO?

# 14 A:

WALKED TO THE WATCH COMMANDER'S OFFICE.

# 15 Q:

WHAT TIME WAS THAT?

# 16 A:

SHORTLY BEFORE 2:00.

# 17 Q:

WATCH COMMANDER WASN'T PRESENT, WAS HE?

# 18 A:

I DON'T RECALL, SIR.

# 19 Q:

DO YOU KNOW SERGEANT DAVE ROSSI?

# 20 A:

YES, I DO.

# 21 Q:

DID YOU SEE HIM THERE IN THE POLICE STATION?

# 22 A:

I DIDN'T SEE HIM THERE, NO.

# 23 Q:

DID YOU LATER SEE HIM AT THE SCENE?

# 24 A:

YES.

# 25 Q:

OKAY. AND HE WAS THERE WHEN YOU ARRIVED, WASN'T HE?

# 26 A:

YES.

# 27 Q:

YEAH. DID YOU AND DETECTIVE PHILLIPS TAKE ONE OF THE AUTOMOBILES THAT BELONGS TO THE POLICE DEPARTMENT?

# 28 A:

YES, SIR.

# 29 Q:

AND WHAT KIND OF CAR IS THAT?

# 30 A:

IT'S A DUAL PURPOSE, I BELIEVE AN '88 CHEVROLET FOUR-DOOR IMPALA.

# 31 Q:

WELL, I WASN'T INTERESTED IN SO MUCH THE MAKE AND MODEL AS THE SPECIFIC PURPOSE TO WHICH IT'S ALLOCATED.

# 32 A:

IT'S A CAR THAT'S ASSIGNED TO HOMICIDE UNIT. WE HAVE A HOMICIDE KIT IN THE TRUNK.

# 33 Q:

NOW, MAY WE LEARN WHAT A HOMICIDE KIT CONSISTS OF? I ASSUME YOU'VE BEEN THROUGH THEM MORE THAN ONCE.

# 34 A:

FROM THE BEGINNING?

# 35 Q:

YES.

# 36 A:

IN THE BOTTOM OF THE HOMICIDE KIT, YOU HAVE USUALLY COVERALLS, PLIERS, ROPES, GLOVES, SOMETIMES --

# 37 Q:

WHAT KIND OF GLOVES?

# 38 A:

-- HIGH-POWERED FLASHLIGHTS.

# 39 Q:

WHAT KIND OF GLOVES, DETECTIVE?

# 40 A:

YOU COULD HAVE LIKE WORK GLOVES THAT YOU WOULD USE TO MAYBE CLIMB DOWN A ROPE IF YOU WERE GOING INTO A RAVINE OR SOME INACCESSIBLE AREA YOU HAVE TO GET DOWN TO A SCENE.

# 41 Q:

DO YOU ALSO HAVE RUBBER GLOVES?

# 42 A:

YES, SIR.

# 43 Q:

WE SAW -- WELL, DID YOU SEE DETECTIVE LANGE AT ANY TIME THAT DAY WITH SOME RUBBER GLOVES ON?

# 44 A:

I DID NOT, NO.

# 45 Q:

ALL RIGHT. CONTINUE.

# 46 A:

YOU WOULD HAVE RULERS, TAPE MEASURES, ANY NECESSARY REPORTS, PLASTIC BAGS, ENVELOPES, WRITING UTENSILS, GREASE PENCILS, RULERS, COMPASS.

# 47 Q:

PLASTIC BAGS IN VARYING SIZES PERHAPS?

# 48 A:

YES.

# 49 Q:

INTENDED FOR THE COLLECTION OF EVIDENCE SHOULD ANY BE FOUND?

# 50 A:

YES.

# 51 Q:

ANYTHING ELSE OF SIGNIFICANCE OF A STANDARD LAPD HOMICIDE KIT?

# 52 A:

THERE'S QUITE A -- THERE'S QUITE A FEW ITEMS, BUT I'M SURE I'VE LEAVING OUT SEVERAL, BUT --

# 53 Q:

BUT THESE ARE ALL TOOLS THAT MIGHT BE USED AT THE SCENE OF A GIVEN HOMICIDE?

# 54 A:

YES.

# 55 Q:

DID YOU AND DETECTIVE PHILLIPS DISCUSS WITHOUT GOING INTO THE CONVERSATION -- JUST YES OR NO -- THE POSSIBLE SIGNIFICANCE OF THIS PARTICULAR HOMICIDE AS IT MIGHT AFFECT THE PUBLIC AND THE MEDIA?

# 56 A:

YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE MEDIA?

# 57 Q:

YEAH.

# 58 A:

I DON'T RECALL DISCUSSING THAT WITH DETECTIVE PHILLIPS.

# 59 Q:

SO NO MENTION OF THAT WAS MADE AS YOU WERE MEETING AT THE WEST LOS ANGELES POLICE STATION AND WHILE YOU WERE GETTING INTO THE HOMICIDE-EQUIPPED VEHICLE.

# 60 A:

NOT THAT I RECALL.

# 61 Q:

AND WAS HE DRIVING?

# 62 A:

YES, HE WAS.

# 63 Q:

IT IS A VERY SHORT DISTANCE FROM THERE TO THE INTERSECTION OF BUNDY AND DOROTHY; IS IT NOT?

# 64 A:

YES, SIR.

# 65 Q:

AND YOU AGREE THAT YOUR ARRIVAL TIME -- I ASSUME YOU DO BECAUSE OF YOUR OWN NOTES -- WAS 2:10 A.M.?

# 66 A:

YES, I DO.

# 67 Q:

AND THAT YOU AND PHILLIPS ARRIVED SIMULTANEOUSLY?

# 68 A:

YES.

# 69 Q:

NOW, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, YOU WERE THE FIRST DETECTIVE ON THE SCENE, YOU TWO?

# 70 A:

YES. BOTH DETECTIVE PHILLIPS AND MYSELF.

# 71 Q:

ALL RIGHT. NOW, DID YOU LEARN THAT SERGEANT ROSSI HAD BEEN THERE SINCE EARLY ON, SOMETIME BEFORE YOU?

# 72 A:

BEFORE I ARRIVED, YES.

# 73 Q:

AND DID YOU KNOW HIM PERSONALLY PRIOR TO THIS INCIDENT?

# 74 A:

JUST AS MUCH AS HE WAS THE WATCH COMMANDER, NOTHING PERSONAL.

# 75 Q:

YOU DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT HIS EXPERIENCE IN PRIOR HOMICIDE CASES?

# 76 A:

NOTHING, SIR.

# 77 Q:

DID YOU KNOW OFFICER RISKE PRIOR TO YOUR INTRODUCTION TO HIM IN CONNECTION WITH THIS INVESTIGATION?

# 78 A:

ONLY AS MUCH AS KNOWING HIS NAME WAS RISKY AND WHO THAT NAME WAS ATTACHED TO.

# 79 Q:

BUT YOU HADN'T WORKED WITH HIM BEFORE?

# 80 A:

NO, I HADN'T.

# 81 Q:

OKAY. NOW, I TAKE IT THAT WHEN YOU ARRIVED AT THE SCENE, YOU HAD QUITE A FEW QUESTIONS AS THE INITIAL DETECTIVE TAKING OVER THE CASE?

# 82 A:

INITIALLY, I DIDN'T SAY HARDLY ANYTHING. DETECTIVE PHILLIPS TOOK THE LEAD TALKING TO SERGEANT ROSSI.

# 83 Q:

OKAY. NOW, CAN YOU GIVE ME SOME IDEA OF THE BREAK-UP IN RESPONSIBILITIES BETWEEN YOU AND DETECTIVE PHILLIPS? HAD YOU WORKED A PRIOR HOMICIDE TOGETHER?

# 84 A:

YES.

# 85 Q:

THERE ARE CERTAIN TASKS THAT HAVE TO BE LOOKED AFTER IMMEDIATELY AFTER YOU GET ON THE SCENE, CORRECT?

# 86 A:

YES.

# 87 Q:

DO YOU FELLOWS DIVIDE UP THESE RESPONSIBILITIES OR DOES HE JUST TAKE CONTROL AND DIRECT YOU TO DO CERTAIN THINGS?

# 88 A:

NO. THERE'S A WAY WE USUALLY WORK TOGETHER.

# 89 Q:

ALL RIGHT. NOW, DID YOU AND DETECTIVE PHILLIPS HAVE ANY CONVERSATION WHEREBY YOU ALLOCATED THE WORK TO BE DONE AT THIS PARTICULAR SCENE?

# 90 A:

NO.

# 91 Q:

WELL, WAS -- DO YOU KNOW IF IT WAS CONTEMPLATED THAT YOU WOULD WORK SIDE BY SIDE OR THAT YOU WOULD GO OFF IN DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS?

# 92 A:

WELL, DETECTIVE PHILLIPS WAS THE HOMICIDE COORDINATOR. SO HE WOULD NOT BE TAKING A LEAD ROLE. IT WOULD BE ONE OF THE OTHER DETECTIVES THAT HAD BEEN CALLED IN THAT HAD NOT YET ARRIVED.

# 93 Q:

OKAY. NOW, WHAT OTHER DETECTIVES HAD BEEN CALLED IN THAT YOU LEARNED ABOUT WHEN YOU GOT THERE?

# 94 A:

DETECTIVE ROBERTS AND DETECTIVE NOLAN.

# 95 Q:

AND WHAT RANK DO THEY HOLD?

# 96 A:

BOTH DETECTIVE 1.

# 97 Q:

SO THAT YOU APART FROM DETECTIVE PHILLIPS WOULD BE THE SENIOR DETECTIVE ON-SITE?

# 98 A:

YES.

# 99 Q:

UNTIL SOMEONE ELSE ARRIVED, CORRECT?

# 100 A:

YES.

# 101 Q:

ALL RIGHT. AND YOU SAY THAT SINCE HE'S THE HOMICIDE COORDINATOR, I GATHER THE THRUST OF THAT IS THAT YOU HAD TO DO THE FOOTWORK SO TO SPEAK?

# 102 A:

WELL, WORKING WITH DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, HE USUALLY CONDUCTS MOST OF YOUR ADMINISTRATIVE NOTIFICATIONS.

# 103 Q:

RIGHT.

# 104 A:

HE COORDINATES AND HE ALLOWS THE DETECTIVES HANDLING THE CASE TO WORK THE CASE.

# 105 Q:

WHICH IN THIS CASE WAS YOU, CORRECT?

# 106 A:

YES, SIR.

# 107 Q:

YOU WERE TO DO THE DETECTING?

# 108 A:

YES.

# 109 Q:

ALL RIGHT. NOW, WHAT DID YOU FIRST ADDRESS OF THE MANY THINGS THAT YOU MIGHT HAVE LOOKED AT WHEN YOU ARRIVED AT THE SCENE?

# 110 A:

I'M NOT SURE I UNDERSTAND IF YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE CRIME SCENE OR --

# 111 Q:

ALL RIGHT. WELL, THERE ARE CERTAIN THINGS THAT NEED TO BE ADDRESSED WHENEVER A HOMICIDE OCCURS, RIGHT?

# 112 A:

YES.

# 113 Q:

AND YOU KNEW THIS BOTH BY VIRTUE OF YOUR TRAINING, YOUR EXPERIENCES AS PATROLMAN AT 10 OTHER HOMICIDE INVESTIGATIONS, RIGHT?

# 114 A:

YES.

# 115 Q:

ALL RIGHT. IF THE VICTIMS AREN'T QUITE DEAD AS SOMETIMES IS THE CASE, THAT'S PRIORITY NUMBER ONE, TREATMENT AND ATTENTION OF THE VICTIMS, RIGHT?

# 116 A:

YES, SIR.

# 117 Q:

YOU ELIMINATED THAT POSSIBILITY IN YOUR OWN MIND RATHER QUICKLY IN THIS CASE; DID YOU NOT?

# 118 A:

OFFICER RISKE INFORMED US OF THE SITUATION.

# 119 Q:

OKAY. THE PROTECTION OF OTHERS WHO MAY BE IN DANGER BECAUSE OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES EVIDENT AT THE CRIME SCENE WOULD BE PROBABLY THE NEXT CONSIDERATION; WOULD IT NOT?

# 120 A:

YES, SIR.

# 121 Q:

YOU KNEW THE CHILDREN HAD BEEN IN THE HOUSE AND HAD BEEN TAKEN TO THE SAFETY OF THE POLICE STATION?

# 122 A:

YES.

# 123 Q:

DID YOU KNOW WHETHER THEY HAD BEEN ASKED AS TO WHERE OTHER FAMILY MEMBERS MIGHT BE?

# 124 A:

I HAD NO KNOWLEDGE OF ANY QUESTIONS.

# 125 Q:

DID YOU MAKE ANY EFFORT TO CONTACT THEM AND INQUIRE?

# 126 A:

NOT AT THAT TIME.

# 127 Q:

OKAY. PRESERVING THE INTEGRITY OF THE CRIME SCENE IS A VERY, VERY IMPORTANT TASK; IS IT NOT?

# 128 A:

YES, SIR.

# 129 Q:

YOU SAW THAT YELLOW TAPE HAD BEEN PUT UP?

# 130 A:

YES.

# 131 Q:

WHAT ELSE HAD BEEN DONE TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE TO PRESERVE THE INTEGRITY OF THE CRIME SCENE BEFORE YOU TOOK OVER?

# 132 A:

WHAT I SAW WAS, THE OFFICERS DID A VERY GOOD JOB IN SEALING OFF A VERY, VERY LARGE AREA CONSIDERING THAT THEIR ONLY KNOWLEDGE WAS THAT THE CRIME SCENE INVOLVED ONE ADDRESS OR ONE RESIDENCE. THEY SEALED OFF A VERY LARGE AREA AND HAD UNIFORMED PERSONNEL WITH THEIR VEHICLES AT DIFFERENT LOCATIONS TO KEEP THAT AREA SECURE AND ANY UNAUTHORIZED PEOPLE FROM ENTERING.

# 133 Q:

ALL RIGHT. WHAT ABOUT THE NEED TO NOTIFY EXPERTS, CRIMINALISTS AND OTHERS TO COME TO THE SCENE WHILE THE EVIDENCE IS STILL FRESH? DID THAT CROSS YOUR MIND AT ALL THAT MORNING?

# 134 A:

YES, SIR.

# 135 Q:

AND WHAT, IF ANYTHING, DID YOU DO ABOUT THAT?

# 136 A:

I DIDN'T HAVE THE CASE LONG ENOUGH TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT.

# 137 Q:

OKAY. WELL, DID YOU DEVELOP AN INTEREST SOON AFTER YOUR ARRIVAL AS TO THE TIME OF DEATH OF EACH OF THE VICTIMS?

# 138 A:

NO.

# 139 Q:

DID NOT?

# 140 A:

NO.

# 141 Q:

WHY WAS THAT?

# 142 A:

I NEVER GOT TO THE POINT TO EVEN GIVE AN OPINION AS TO MODE OF DEATH AND I WOULD LEAVE THAT TO THE CORONER'S INVESTIGATOR.

# 143 Q:

OKAY. WELL, YOU KNEW THAT THEY WERE DEAD BY A LITTLE AFTER MIDNIGHT, DIDN'T YOU, BASED ON THE INFORMATION YOU WERE GIVEN?

# 144 A:

I BELIEVE OFFICER RISKE GAVE A GENERAL TIME, YES.

# 145 Q:

YOU WERE WELL SATISFIED BY WHAT RISKE TOLD YOU AND WHAT YOU SAW WITH YOUR OWN EYES THAT NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON WAS INDEED THE FEMALE VICTIM, WEREN'T YOU?

# 146 A:

I HAD NO IDEA. I COULD NOT SEE HER FACE. I COULD NOT -- THERE WAS NO IDENTIFICATION. SO AT THAT TIME, I BELIEVE IT WAS ASSUMED, BUT NOT KNOWN.

# 147 Q:

THERE WASN'T ANY QUESTION IN ANYBODY'S MIND AT 2:10 A.M. THAT NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON WAS DEAD, WAS THERE?

# 148 A:

I DON'T KNOW THAT, SIR.

# 149 Q:

WELL, WAS THERE A QUESTION IN YOUR MIND? DID YOU REALLY WONDER WHO SHE WAS AT THAT POINT?

# 150 A:

I DIDN'T JUMP TO ANY CONCLUSIONS ABOUT WHAT THAT SCENE OFFERED.

# 151 Q:

MY QUESTION IS, DID YOU KNOW WHO SHE WAS OR WERE YOU WONDERING WHO SHE WAS?

# 152 A:

I'D SAY WONDERING.

# 153 Q:

OKAY. YOU COULDN'T SEE ENOUGH OF HER TO RECOGNIZE HER FROM YOUR PRIOR CONTACT?

# 154 A:

I WOULDN'T HAVE RECOGNIZED HER, BUT IDENTIFICATION --

# 155 Q:

YOU WOULDN'T HAVE?

# 156 A:

NO, SIR.

# 157 Q:

OKAY. YOU KNEW THAT THE PICTURES OF MR. SIMPSON WERE AROUND THE HOUSE?

# 158 A:

I SAW ONE, YES.

# 159 Q:

UH-HUH. AND DID YOU SEE A LIST OF PHONE NUMBERS ON THE KITCHEN WALL WHICH INCLUDED THAT OF O.J. SIMPSON?

# 160 A:

NO, I DID NOT SEE THAT.

# 161 Q:

DID YOU SEE A TELEPHONE WITH A SPEED DIALER?

# 162 A:

I BELIEVE I SAW A TELEPHONE NEXT TO THE KITCHEN AREA, BUT I DIDN'T LOOK AT THE PHONE, NO.

# 163 Q:

YOU DIDN'T EXAMINE IT AT ALL?

# 164 A:

NO.

# 165 Q:

DIDN'T NOTICE THAT IT HAD A SPEED DIALER AND AN ENTRY THAT SAID "DADDY"?

# 166 A:

NO, I DIDN'T.

# 167 Q:

OKAY. NOW, HAD YOU AND DETECTIVE PHILLIPS DISCUSSED AT THIS POINT THE MANNER IN WHICH MR. SIMPSON WOULD BE NOTIFIED?

# 168 A:

NO, I WAS NOT PRIVILEGED TO THAT.

# 169 Q:

ALL RIGHT. WHEN DID YOU FIRST LEARN WHAT SPECIAL STEPS WOULD BE TAKEN IN THIS CASE?

# 170 A:

I AM SORRY?

# 171 Q:

WHEN DID YOU FIRST LEARN THAT SPECIAL RULES HAD BEEN ISSUED BY THE BRASS IN THE POLICE DEPARTMENT AS TO HOW MR. SIMPSON WOULD BE NOTIFIED?

# 172 A:

NEVER.

# 173 Q:

YOU NEVER HEARD THAT?

# 174 A:

NO.

# 175 Q:

YOU'RE LEARNING TODAY THAT PHILLIPS WAS TOLD TO TELL HIM PERSONALLY RATHER THAN OVER THE TELEPHONE?

# 176 A:

NO. I THOUGHT YOU MEANT SPECIAL, SPECIAL WAY THAT WE WERE GOING TO NOTIFY, BEST DESIRABLE IN ANY CASE. I ONLY LEARNED FROM DETECTIVE PHILLIPS WHILE WE WERE IN THE VEHICLE THAT WE WERE GOING UP TO THE ROCKINGHAM ADDRESS TO MAKE A NOTIFICATION.

# 177 Q:

CAN YOU TELL ME WHEN THAT WAS?

# 178 A:

WHEN WE GOT INTO THE VEHICLE TO LEAVE.

# 179 Q:

TO GO TO ROCKINGHAM?

# 180 A:

YES, SIR.

# 181 Q:

THAT WAS 5:00 O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING OR THEREAFTER?

# 182 A:

YES, SIR.

# 183 Q:

WHAT'S YOUR BEST ESTIMATE?

# 184 A:

ABOUT 5:00 O'CLOCK.

# 185 Q:

ALL RIGHT. NOW, I WONDER IF YOU COULD HELP US, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, AND JUST GIVE US YOUR BEST RECOLLECTION OF YOUR WHEREABOUTS AT VARIOUS TIMES THAT ARE RELEVANT TO YOUR EXPERIENCES THAT MORNING, PLEASE, IN VIEW OF THE DEFENSE. YOU RECEIVED A CALL FROM PHILLIPS AT 1:05?

# 186 A:

YES, SIR.

# 187 Q:

CAN YOU ESTIMATE AT WHAT POINT YOU WERE ACTUALLY ON THE ROAD AND HEADED TO THE STATION?

# 188 A:

USUALLY TAKES ME MAYBE 15, 20 MINUTES TO GET READY.

# 189 Q:

OKAY. SO SOMEWHERE BETWEEN 1:15 AND 1:25?

# 190 A:

YES, SIR.

# 191 Q:

AND I THINK YOU SAID AROUND 20 MINUTES TO DRIVE IN?

# 192 A:

YES.

# 193 Q:

AND YOU ARRIVED THERE AROUND 1:50, 1:55?

# 194 A:

SHORTLY BEFORE 2:00, YES.

# 195 Q:

OKAY. AND HAVING ARRIVED AT THE CRIME SCENE AT 2:10, I WOULD ASSUME THAT YOU LEFT THE STATION ABOUT 2:05.

# 196 A:

YES.

# 197 Q:

OKAY. NOW, IF YOU CAN, PLEASE TRY TO TELL US WHAT YOU WERE DOING AT 2:15, FIVE MINUTES AFTER YOU ARRIVED AT THE CRIME SCENE.

# 198 A:

I BELIEVE I WAS LISTENING TO EITHER SERGEANT ROSSI OR OFFICER RISKE EXPLAIN WHAT THEY HAD DISCOVERED.

# 199 Q:

AND WHERE WERE YOU PHYSICALLY STANDING AS YOU LISTENED TO THIS INFORMATION?

# 200 A:

INSIDE THE YELLOW TAPE BEHIND A POLICE VEHICLE PARKED IN THE ROADWAY.

# 201 Q:

OKAY. HOW LONG DID YOU SPEND AT THAT LOCATION GETTING THIS INFORMATION BEFORE YOU MOVED TO SOMEWHERE ELSE?

# 202 A:

A FEW MOMENTS. JUST LONG ENOUGH TO MAKE A FEW STATEMENTS ABOUT HOW THE BODIES WERE DISCOVERED.

# 203 Q:

OKAY. WELL, A MOMENT DOESN'T HAVE A VERY CONCRETE DEFINITION. CAN YOU JUST GIVE US IN MINUTES?

# 204 A:

COUPLE OF MINUTES.

# 205 Q:

ALL RIGHT. SO IS IT FAIR TO SAY THAT BY 2:15, YOU WERE LEAVING THE IMMEDIATE CRIME SCENE AND WALKING SOUTH ON DOROTHY?

# 206 A:

I THINK THAT WOULD BE RATHER QUICK. WE TRIED TO APPROACH TO THE FRONT OF THE RESIDENCE, BUT THEN WE TURNED AROUND AND THEN WE WENT DOWN TOWARDS DOROTHY.

# 207 Q:

WOULD IT BE MORE FAIR TO SAY BETWEEN 2:15 AND 2:25, YOU LEFT THE CRIME SCENE WHERE YOU, PHILLIPS AND RISKE HAD BEEN LOOKING AT THE BODIES AND WALKED BACK OUT TO THE SIDEWALK AND SOUTH ON DOROTHY?

# 208 A:

I THINK THAT'S TOO MUCH. NO.

# 209 Q:

TOO MUCH. ALL RIGHT. I UNDERSTAND YOU SAID 2:15 WOULD BE TOO SOON. AND MY QUESTION NOW IS, WOULD IT BE BETWEEN 2:15 AND NO LATER THAN 2:25?

# 210 A:

I WOULD BE MORE COMFORTABLE WITH MAYBE NO LATER THAN 20 AFTER.

# 211 Q:

OKAY. SO BY 2:20, YOU WERE ON THE MOVE. NOW, YOU'VE DESCRIBED HOW YOU WALKED THROUGH THE SHRUBBERY I BELIEVE YOU SAID FROM OFF THE PICTURE AS YOU WERE LOOKING AT A PHOTOGRAPH OF THE SCENE AND COULD VIEW THE BODY OF NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON, BUT DID NOT HAVE A VERY GOOD VIEW OF THE BODY OF THE OTHER VICTIM FROM THAT VANTAGE POINT. AM I CORRECTLY SUMMARIZING WHAT HAPPENED?

# 212 A:

YES.

# 213 Q:

ALL RIGHT. IN ORDER TO ATTAIN A BETTER PERSPECTIVE, YOU QUESTIONED RISKE, AS A RESULT OF WHICH YOU WALKED DOWN BUNDY TO DOROTHY AND AROUND -- UP THE ALLEY AND INTO THE SIMPSON HOME, CORRECT?

# 214 A:

YES, SIR.

# 215 Q:

AND OUT THE FRONT DOOR WHICH YOU UNDERSTOOD WAS FOUND OPEN BY THE OFFICERS FIRST ON THE SCENE.

# 216 A:

YES.

# 217 Q:

CAN YOU DESCRIBE THE LIGHTING CONDITIONS THAT EXISTED AT THE MOMENT THAT YOU WALKED OUT THAT FRONT DOOR?

# 218 A:

I BELIEVE THERE WAS LIGHT COMING FROM THE INSIDE OF THE RESIDENCE CASCADING DOWN ONTO THE WALKWAY.

# 219 Q:

CASCADING DOWN?

# 220 A:

YES.

# 221 Q:

IS THAT SUGGESTING THAT THE NAKED EYE COULD SEE MOST OF THE DETAIL OF THE CRIME SCENE WITHOUT THE AID OF ARTIFICIAL ILLUMINATION BY VIRTUE OF THAT LIGHT?

# 222 A:

NO. THERE WAS A LOT OF SHADOWING. THERE'S A LOT OF SHRUBBERY. IT WASN'T VERY GOOD LIGHT.

# 223 Q:

WELL, DID YOU HAVE YOUR LITTLE FLASHLIGHT WITH YOU AT THAT TIME?

# 224 A:

YES.

# 225 Q:

THAT'S THE LITTLE -- IS IT A BLACK ONE?

# 226 A:

YES.

# 227 Q:

THAT HOLDS TWO DOUBLE A BATTERIES?

# 228 A:

YES, SIR.

# 229 Q:

OKAY. CAN BE ADJUSTED EITHER FOR A SPOT OR A FLOOD?

# 230 A:

YES.

# 231 Q:

THEN PRIOR TO THE TIME THAT YOU WALKED AROUND TO THE REAR OF THE RESIDENCE, THE ONLY PLACE YOU HAD BEEN IS WITH THE OTHERS IN THE SHRUBBERY AT THE GATEPOST AS YOU PUT IT?

# 232 A:

YES, SIR.

# 233 Q:

TRUE?

# 234 A:

YES.

# 235 Q:

OKAY. AT WHAT TIME WOULD YOU SAY YOU ENTERED THE RESIDENCE ASSUMING THAT YOU LEFT AT 2:20 FROM THE IMMEDIATE CRIME SCENE?

# 236 A:

WITHIN A MINUTE.

# 237 Q:

YOU WALKED THAT DISTANCE IN ONE MINUTE?

# 238 A:

YES. JUST AROUND THE BLOCK.

# 239 Q:

WELL, YOU'RE A FAIRLY TALL FELLOW. DO YOU KNOW THE RATE AT WHICH YOU NORMALLY WALK?

# 240 A:

NO.

# 241 Q:

THREE AND A HALF, FOUR MILES AN HOUR LIKE MOST PEOPLE?

# 242 A:

I WOULD SUSPECT, YES.

# 243 Q:

OKAY. DO YOU KNOW THE DISTANCE FROM THE IMMEDIATE CRIME SCENE AROUND THE BACK WAY INTO THE HOUSE?

# 244 A:

NO.

# 245 Q:

OKAY. WELL, THREE AND A HALF MILES AN HOUR IS 319 -- 309 FEET A MINUTE AND FOUR IS 352. DO YOU THINK THAT THE DISTANCE WAS LESS THAN THAT?

# 246 A:

THAT SEEMS PRETTY ACCURATE, YOUR FIRST NUMBER.

# 247 Q:

OKAY. SO YOU THINK IT WAS ABOUT 300 AND SOME ODD FEET THAT YOU TRAVERSED TO GET TO THE HOUSE?

# 248 A:

THAT WOULD BE A GREAT ESTIMATION ON MY PART, BUT I THINK IT'S WORKABLE.

# 249 Q:

OKAY. AND THAT'S ABOUT THE DISTANCE YOU COULD WALK IN A MINUTE, TRUE?

# 250 A:

IF YOU SAY SO.

# 251 Q:

WELL, YOU'RE THE WALKER. DO YOU SAY SO?

# 252 A:

I WALK FAIRLY RAPIDLY, BUT --

# 253 Q:

ALL RIGHT.

# 254 A:

-- I DON'T KNOW IF IT WOULD MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

# 255 Q:

WHEN YOU ENTERED THE HOME, DID YOU GO DIRECTLY OUT THE FRONT DOOR TO VIEW THE BODIES ONCE AGAIN OR DID YOU AT THAT TIME BEGIN TO WALK AROUND AND MAKE OBSERVATIONS?

# 256 A:

NO. I WAS LED BY OFFICER RISKE.

# 257 Q:

ALL RIGHT. THE PURPOSE IN TAKING THAT ROUTE WAS TO GET BACK TO WHERE YOU HAD STARTED, BUT IN A DIFFERENT PLACE, RIGHT?

# 258 A:

YES, SIR.

# 259 Q:

AND TO GET THERE WITHOUT WALKING THROUGH THE POOLING OF BLOOD THAT WAS AROUND THE AREA, THAT WAS YOUR PURPOSE, RIGHT?

# 260 A:

YES. YES, SIR.

# 261 Q:

HOW LONG WOULD YOU SAY YOU SPENT AT THE CRIME SCENE FROM THAT VANTAGE POINT UP ON THE STEPS I BELIEVE YOU TOLD US ON THAT OCCASION?

# 262 A:

ONCE OFFICER RISKE BROUGHT US OUT INTO THE LANDING? JUST LONG ENOUGH TO POINT OUT A FEW ITEMS OF EVIDENCE, SHOW US THE FOOTPRINTS AND THEN WALK US BACK ALONG THE RIGHT SIDE OF THOSE SHOEPRINTS.

# 263 Q:

OKAY. WELL, HOW LONG DO YOU THINK YOU SPENT THERE?

# 264 A:

COUPLE MINUTES.

# 265 Q:

MAYBE ONLY TWO?

# 266 A:

TWO, THREE MINUTES.

# 267 Q:

OKAY. AND YOU MADE THE OBSERVATIONS YOU DESCRIBED FOR US ON DIRECT EXAMINATION ABOUT MR. GOLDMAN, THE OTHER EVIDENCE THAT WAS LYING AROUND?

# 268 A:

OFFICER RISKE WAS POINTING THEM OUT WITH HIS FLASHLIGHT.

# 269 Q:

OKAY. THESE ARE THINGS HE HAD DISCOVERED AND HE WAS SHOWING THEM TO YOU. THESE WERE NOT THINGS THAT YOU WERE DISCOVERING AS A DETECTIVE, RIGHT?

# 270 A:

I WAS LISTENING AND HE WAS POINTING THEM OUT, YES, SIR, THAT'S CORRECT.

# 271 Q:

BUT HE ALREADY KNEW THEY WERE THERE. YOU FELLOWS WEREN'T MAKING A DISCOVERY AT THAT POINT, WERE YOU?

# 272 A:

NO. WE WERE QUIET LISTENING TO HIS -- HIS LEAD.

# 273 Q:

AND HE TOLD YOU THAT HE HAD SEEN THEM THERE WHEN HE FIRST CAME ON THE SCENE A LITTLE AFTER MIDNIGHT?

# 274 A:

YES.

# 275 Q:

NOW, AFTER SPENDING TWO, THREE MINUTES THERE, WHERE DID YOU GO?

# 276 A:

WE WALKED DOWN ALONG THE PATHWAY THAT'S ON THE NORTH SIDE OF THE RESIDENCE, LOOKED AT THE GATE.

# 277 Q:

IS THIS WHERE YOU SAW THE BLOODY FOOTPRINTS?

# 278 A:

THE BLOODY FOOTPRINTS WERE FROM THE LANDING WESTBOUND.

# 279 Q:

RIGHT. NOW, YOU'VE DESCRIBED A PATH THAT GOES DOWN SOME STEPS, LEVELS OUT AND GOES UP SOME STEPS AND OUT THE BACK GATE, CORRECT?

# 280 A:

YES.

# 281 Q:

DID I UNDERSTAND YOU TO SAY THAT THE LAST BLOODY FOOTPRINT THAT YOU SAW THAT NIGHT WAS ON THE CONCRETE BEFORE YOU GO DOWN THE FIRST SET OF STEPS?

# 282 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION. ASSUMES FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE.

# 283 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 284 Q:

BY MR. BAILEY: IS THAT CORRECT, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN?

# 285 A:

WOULD YOU ASK THAT ONE MORE TIME?

# 286 Q:

YEAH. HAVE IN MIND THAT STEPS GO UP, THERE'S A FLAT AREA GOING BY THE ENTRANCE TO THE HOME, STEPS GO DOWN, LEVELS OUT AGAIN, STEPS GO UP AND THEN YOU GO OUT THE BACK GATE. HAVE THAT SCENARIO IN MIND? DO YOU REMEMBER THAT NOW?

# 287 A:

YEAH. YES, I DO.

# 288 Q:

OKAY. IS IT CORRECT THAT THE BLOODY FOOTPRINTS THAT YOU SAW DID NOT EXTEND BEYOND THE FIRST FLAT LEVEL?

# 289 A:

I DON'T RECALL THEY DID, NO.

# 290 Q:

YOU HAVE REFERRED TO --

# 291 THE COURT REPORTER:

I NEED TO CHANGE PAPER.

# 292 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT.

# 293 Q:

BY MR. BAILEY: YOU HAVE REFERRED TO THE DEPRESSED AREA IN THE PAST AS A TROTH OF SOME SORT; HAVE YOU NOT?

# 294 A:

YES.

# 295 Q:

OKAY. NOW, MY QUESTION IS, DID ANY FOOTPRINTS GO DOWN THE STEPS OR INTO THE TROTH THAT YOU SAW THAT NIGHT?

# 296 A:

I DIDN'T SEE ANY.

# 297 Q:

OKAY. HAVE YOU HAD SOME TRAINING IN FOOTPRINTS?

# 298 A:

SHOEPRINTS OR FOOTPRINTS?

# 299 Q:

SHOEPRINTS, FOOTPRINTS. HAVE YOU HAD SOME CLASSES, SOME ON-THE-JOB TRAINING OR ANYTHING THAT WOULD EDUCATE YOU AS TO THE KINDS OF FOOTPRINTS THAT CAN BE FOUND AT A CRIME SCENE AND HOW THEY CAN BE ISOLATED AND PRESERVED?

# 300 A:

YES.

# 301 Q:

YOU HAVE.

# 302 A:

YES.

# 303 Q:

CAN YOU TELL ME WHEN AND WHERE YOU OBTAINED THAT TRAINING?

# 304 A:

IN DETECTIVE SCHOOL, HOMICIDE SCHOOL.

# 305 Q:

THAT WAS A FORMAL CLASS WHERE SOMEBODY LECTURED TO YOU?

# 306 A:

I THINK IT WAS INCLUDED IN THE CRIMINALIST'S ABILITY AT CONDUCTING SOME INVESTIGATIONS AT A SCENE.

# 307 Q:

ONE OF THE THINGS CRIMINALISTS CAN DO?

# 308 A:

YES.

# 309 Q:

DO YOU KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A FOOTPRINT AND A FOOT IMPRINT?

# 310 A:

I WOULD SAY ONE WOULD BE DIMENSIONAL, HAVE SOME CHARACTER OF WIDTH OR DEPTH AND HEIGHT.

# 311 Q:

WIDTH OR DEPTH?

# 312 A:

WIDTH, DEPTH AND HEIGHT WOULD BE SOMETHING THAT WOULD BE IMPRINTED --

# 313 Q:

YOU MEAN THREE-DIMENSIONAL --

# 314 A:

THREE-DIMENSIONAL.

# 315 THE COURT:

HOLD ON. MR. BAILEY, WOULD YOU ALLOW THE WITNESS TO FINISH THE ANSWER BEFORE YOU START THE NEXT QUESTION?

# 316 MR. BAILEY:

YES. COMPLETE.

# 317 DET. MARK FUHRMAN:

I WOULD SAY AN IMPRINT WOULD BE, YES, THREE-DIMENSIONAL.

# 318 Q:

BY MR. BAILEY: IMPRINT IS THE KIND OF FOOTPRINT THAT YOU MIGHT FIND IN SOIL, SAND OR SNOW, RIGHT?

# 319 A:

YES.

# 320 Q:

A FOOTPRINT ON A HARD SURFACE WOULD BE TWO-DIMENSIONAL IF IT EXISTED; WOULD IT NOT?

# 321 A:

YES.

# 322 Q:

IT COULD BE OUTLINED IN BLOOD OR GREASE OR ANY SUBSTANCE THAT COULD BE SEEN, CORRECT?

# 323 A:

YES.

# 324 Q:

OR IT COULD BE LATENT; COULD IT NOT?

# 325 A:

YES.

# 326 Q:

DO YOU KNOW WHAT A LATENT FOOTPRINT IS?

# 327 A:

IT WOULD BE SOMETHING THAT'S NOT VISIBLE TO THE NAKED EYE.

# 328 Q:

OKAY. SO THAT IF THERE WERE ANY LATENT FOOTPRINTS THAT WERE ON THAT WALKWAY THAT NIGHT, THAT'S SOMETHING THAT ONLY THE CRIMINALIST COULD LIKELY PICK UP, CORRECT?

# 329 A:

YES.

# 330 Q:

IN OTHER WORDS, IF THERE HAD BEEN TWO PEOPLE, ONE STEPPED IN BLOOD AND THE OTHER DIDN'T, THERE MIGHT BE SOME LATENT FOOTPRINTS AROUND TO BE DETECTED BY SOMEBODY PROPERLY TRAINED; FAIR STATEMENT?

# 331 A:

I'M NOT SURE IF IT WOULD BE A FAIR STATEMENT.

# 332 Q:

DON'T THINK SO?

# 333 A:

I'M A LITTLE CONFUSED AT THE QUESTION.

# 334 Q:

OKAY. ALL RIGHT. WELL, LET ME SEE IF I CAN CLARIFY IT SOMEWHAT.

# 335 A:

THANK YOU.

# 336 Q:

IF A LATENT FOOTPRINT, SHOEPRINT IS ONE THAT CANNOT BE SEEN WITH THE NAKED EYE BUT MUST NONETHELESS BE PROTECTED, YOU CAN ONLY PROTECT THE AREA WHERE IT MIGHT BE, CORRECT, NOT A SPECIFIC SPOT IN THAT AREA?

# 337 A:

I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, YES, SIR.

# 338 Q:

ALL RIGHT. AND A CRIMINALIST MIGHT LATER COME ALONG AND EITHER WITH ULTRAVIOLET LIGHT OR OBLIQUE LIGHT FIND SOME SHOEPRINT IN THE DUST THAT YOU HADN'T BEEN ABLE TO SEE FOR LACK OF TRAINING AND EXPERIENCE, TRUE?

# 339 A:

YES, SIR.

# 340 Q:

ALL RIGHT. AND MY QUESTION IS WHETHER THE CRIME SCENE THAT YOU WERE WALKING ON AS YOU WENT BACK UP THAT WALKWAY WITH OFFICER RISKE WAS BEING PROTECTED IN THAT FASHION.

# 341 A:

I BELIEVE THE WHOLE SCENE WAS BEING PROTECTED, YES.

# 342 Q:

OKAY. BUT HOW DID YOU GET FROM THE FRONT TO THE BACK?

# 343 A:

WELL, WE HAD TO GET THERE SOME WAY.

# 344 Q:

AND SO YOU WALKED?

# 345 A:

WE WALKED AT THE BEST PATH THAT WE COULD DETERMINE AT THAT TIME.

# 346 Q:

BEING CAREFUL TO AVOID THE BLOODY FOOTPRINTS AND WHAT YOU THOUGHT MIGHT BE DROPS OF BLOOD?

# 347 A:

YES, SIR.

# 348 Q:

CORRECT?

# 349 A:

YES.

# 350 Q:

NOW, AFTER YOU ARRIVED AT THE BACK GATE, WHAT TIME WOULD YOU SAY IT WAS THEN AS YOU ARRIVED?

# 351 A:

I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE TIME LINE WOULD BE AT THAT POINT. IT WOULD PROBABLY TAKE US A COUPLE MORE MINUTES TO WALK BACK AND MAKE THE OBSERVATIONS ON THE GATE.

# 352 Q:

JUST GIVE US YOUR BEST ESTIMATE WHAT TIME IT WAS WHEN YOU GOT TO THE BACK GATE.

# 353 A:

I HAVE NO IDEA.

# 354 Q:

WOULD IT BE BEFORE 2:30 OR AFTER?

# 355 A:

I DON'T KNOW.

# 356 Q:

20 MINUTES INTO YOUR INVESTIGATION?

# 357 A:

I DON'T KNOW.

# 358 Q:

OKAY.

# 359 A:

I WOULD PROBABLY SAY A LITTLE BEFORE.

# 360 Q:

A LITTLE BEFORE?

# 361 A:

YES.

# 362 Q:

WHAT DID YOU NEXT DO?

# 363 A:

WALKED OUT ONTO THE DRIVEWAY. OFFICER RISKE POINTED OUT BLOOD DROPS AND SOME CHANGE.

# 364 Q:

YEAH.

# 365 A:

THEN I REENTERED THE HOUSE.

# 366 Q:

ALL RIGHT. NOW, BEFORE YOU REENTERED THE HOUSE, DID YOU OR HAD YOU BEGUN TO DEVELOP A PICTURE OF THIS CRIME SCENE AND TO HAVE SOME IDEAS AS TO WHAT MIGHT BE RELEVANT AND WHAT MIGHT NOT IN THE COURSE OF THE INVESTIGATION YOU WERE ABOUT TO CONDUCT?

# 367 A:

WELL, SOMEWHAT.

# 368 Q:

DID YOU HAVE AN OVERVIEW?

# 369 A:

A SLIGHT OVERVIEW.

# 370 Q:

ALL RIGHT. RISKE HAD BEEN DOING HIS BEST PRIOR TO YOUR ARRIVAL TO DO THE THINGS HE HAD BEEN TRAINED TO DO, CORRECT?

# 371 A:

YES.

# 372 Q:

AND THOSE ARE THE KINDS OF THINGS THAT YOU WERE TRAINED TO DO WHEN YOU WERE A PATROLMAN AT HOMICIDE SCENES AS OPPOSED TO A DETECTIVE?

# 373 A:

YES.

# 374 Q:

ALL RIGHT. HAD ANY CANVASSING OF THE NEIGHBORHOOD TAKEN PLACE THAT YOU KNOW OF?

# 375 A:

I BELIEVE THERE HAD BEEN, YES.

# 376 Q:

AND AS I RECALL FROM YOUR NOTES, YOU SAID THE RESIDENTS WOULDN'T OPEN THE DOOR. SO NOBODY LEARNED MUCH.

# 377 A:

WELL, I THINK THAT WAS AN IMPRESSION OF OFFICER RISKE. I DON'T KNOW IF THAT WAS ACCURATE.

# 378 Q:

BUT SOMEBODY TOLD YOU?

# 379 A:

YES.

# 380 Q:

DID YOU INQUIRE ABOUT WHETHER THE CRIME SCENE HAD BEEN SEARCHED AND ITS SURROUND FOR ANY EVIDENCE OF WEAPONS, CLOTHING OR OTHER IMPLEMENTS OF CRIME?

# 381 A:

NO.

# 382 Q:

RISKE DIDN'T TELL YOU THAT THE AREA HAD BEEN LOOKED AT, GARBAGE CANS, DIPSEY-DUMPSTERS AND SO FORTH?

# 383 A:

I DON'T RECALL HIM MAKING ANY COMMENT, NO.

# 384 Q:

DO YOU RECALL DIRECTING ANYONE TO ACCOMPLISH THAT PURPOSE?

# 385 A:

NO.

# 386 Q:

ALL RIGHT. NOW, WOULD YOU AGREE THAT WHEN THERE IS DELAY IN A HOMICIDE INVESTIGATION, NUMBER ONE, THE PERPETRATORS OR PERPETRATOR, AS THE CASE MAY BE, HAVE A CHANCE TO GET FURTHER AND FURTHER AWAY FROM THE SCENE, CORRECT?

# 387 A:

WELL, I THINK THAT WOULD BE COMMON SENSE, YES.

# 388 Q:

THEY HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY PERHAPS TO PLANT EVIDENCE, TO MISLEAD THE DETECTIVES AS TIME GOES BY?

# 389 A:

I COULDN'T ANSWER THAT, SIR.

# 390 Q:

THEY HAVE TIME -- THIS IS NO PART OF YOUR TRAINING I TAKE IT?

# 391 A:

PLANTING EVIDENCE? NO, IT ISN'T.

KEY QUOTE

# 392 Q:

AND THEY HAVE TIME TO STRUCTURE FALSE ALIBIS ALL DURING THIS PERIOD THAT THEY ARE NOT BEING APPREHENDED?

# 393 A:

I WOULD PROBABLY AGREE WITH THAT.

# 394 Q:

AND THEY ARE FREE TO KILL AGAIN, TRUE?

# 395 A:

IF THAT'S THE CIRCUMSTANCE.

# 396 Q:

WELL, IF THEY'RE NOT APPREHENDED, PRESUMABLY THEY HAVE THE SAME FREEDOM THAT PERMITTED THEM TO ACCOMPLISH THE GRISLY SCENE THAT YOU HAD JUST VIEWED, TRUE?

# 397 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION. ASSUMES FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE.

# 398 DET. MARK FUHRMAN:

I CAN'T --

# 399 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 400 DET. MARK FUHRMAN:

I COULDN'T SPECULATE ON A CRIMINAL'S INTENT WHETHER HE KILLED ONCE OR A HUNDRED.

# 401 Q:

BY MR. BAILEY: WELL, IT SEEMED TO ME THAT A LITTLE LATER THAT DAY, YOU WERE SPECULATING PRETTY HEAVILY ON PEOPLE'S SAFETY AND INTENT; WERE YOU NOT? ABOUT 5:00 THAT MORNING, WHEN YOU WENT OVER THE WALK, WASN'T THAT BECAUSE OF A CONCERN FOR SAFETY?

# 402 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION.

# 403 THE COURT:

I'M SORRY. I CAN'T HEAR YOU, MISS CLARK.

# 404 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION. ARGUMENTATIVE.

# 405 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. SUSTAINED. PROCEED.

# 406 Q:

BY MR. BAILEY: ALL RIGHT. WHEN DID YOU GO INTO THE HOUSE AS BEST YOU CAN RECALL TO MAKE YOUR NOTES?

# 407 A:

RIGHT AFTER OFFICER RISKE LED US PAST THE DRIVEWAY INTO THE ALLEYWAY.

# 408 Q:

DID YOU GIVE ANY DIRECTION TO ANY OF THE OFFICERS AT THE SCENE PRIOR TO SITTING DOWN TO MAKE THE NOTES THAT WE'VE ALL VIEWED AS TO THINGS THEY OUGHT TO DO OR OUGHT NOT TO DO?

# 409 A:

NO. I WAS SATISFIED WITH THE CRIME SCENE, THE SECURITY OF IT.

# 410 Q:

ALL RIGHT. NOW, AS YOU UNDERSTOOD IT, WHEN YOU AND DETECTIVE PHILLIPS WALKED UP TO THAT POST, WHAT WERE THE RULES ENFORCED ABOUT PEOPLE GOING TO THE CRIME SCENE, THE AREA WHERE YOU WERE STANDING?

# 411 A:

I'M NOT SURE I UNDERSTAND THE RULES.

# 412 Q:

WHICH PEOPLE, IF ANY, WERE ALLOWED TO GO INSIDE THE YELLOW TAPE OF THOSE WHO WERE PRESENT WHEN YOU ARRIVED AT 2:10 A.M.?

# 413 A:

I WOULD SAY AT THAT POINT, CONCERNED DETECTIVES AS FAR AS APPROACHING THE SCENE.

# 414 Q:

JUST DETECTIVES?

# 415 A:

AS FAR AS APPROACHING THE SCENE?

# 416 Q:

RIGHT.

# 417 A:

THAT WOULD BE MY ASSUMPTION AT THAT POINT.

# 418 Q:

ALL RIGHT. DID YOU ISSUE ANY ORDERS AS TO WHO COULD AND COULD NOT CROSS THAT TAPE?

# 419 A:

NO.

# 420 Q:

WHEN DID YOU FIRST REALIZE DETECTIVE ROBERTS HAD ARRIVED?

# 421 A:

WHEN HE ENTERED THE REAR OF THE RESIDENCE AND CAME INTO THE KITCHEN AREA.

# 422 Q:

AND WHAT TIME WAS THAT?

# 423 A:

SHORTLY BEFORE THIS CASE WAS RELIEVED FROM OUR RESPONSIBILITY.

# 424 Q:

ALL RIGHT. NOW, YOU HAVE MENTIONED THAT EVENT A NUMBER OF OCCASIONS. CAN YOU TELL US, ACCORDING TO YOUR BEST RECOLLECTION, WHEN IT WAS THAT DETECTIVE PHILLIPS SAID, "ROBBERY-HOMICIDE IS TAKING OVER THIS CASE"?

# 425 A:

WITHIN A HALF HOUR OR 40 MINUTES OF OUR ARRIVAL.

# 426 Q:

WELL, WOULD THE FIGURE 38 MINUTES AFTER YOU ARRIVED SEEM TO BE ABOUT CORRECT?

# 427 A:

I'VE NEVER READ THAT, BUT I AGREE WITH IT.

# 428 Q:

OKAY. SO THAT IF YOU GOT THERE AT 2:10, THEN ABOUT 2:50 OR THEREABOUTS, YOU LEARNED THAT THIS CASE WAS NO LONGER YOURS TO LEAD, CORRECT?

# 429 A:

YES.

# 430 Q:

YOU WERE IN THE PROCESS OF WRITING YOUR NOTES ABOUT 10 MINUTES OF 3:00 WHEN YOU GOT THIS INFORMATION AS I UNDERSTAND IT?

# 431 A:

YES, SIR.

# 432 Q:

AND DID YOU CEASE WRITING YOUR NOTES AT THAT POINT BECAUSE YOU HAD BEEN RELIEVED OR BECAUSE YOU LEARNED YOU HAD BEEN RELIEVED?

# 433 A:

I COMPLETED THE NOTES. WHEN DETECTIVE PHILLIPS TOLD ME THAT WE WERE RELIEVED OF THIS, I COMPLETED THE NOTES THAT I HAD STARTED.

# 434 Q:

HOW MANY NOTES DID YOU WRITE AFTER YOU GOT THE INFORMATION?

# 435 A:

OH, THERE WAS ONLY TWO OR THREE POINTS THAT I WANTED TO PUT ON THE NOTES THAT WERE OF CONCERN.

# 436 Q:

BUT YOU DID THAT SUBSEQUENT?

# 437 A:

I BELIEVE WHEN HE WAS STANDING RIGHT THERE.

# 438 Q:

OKAY. NOW, ON ANOTHER SUBJECT JUST BRIEFLY, MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT YOU WERE INSTRUCTED BY SOMEONE LAST FALL TO WATCH THE LARRY KING SHOW?

# 439 A:

NO. THAT WAS THIS YEAR.

# 440 Q:

IS THAT NOT CORRECT?

# 441 A:

THAT WAS THIS YEAR, SIR.

# 442 Q:

LAST FALL? OH, NO, IT WAS THIS YEAR.

# 443 A:

YES.

# 444 Q:

I AM SORRY. WHEN WAS IT?

# 445 A:

SOMETIME THIS YEAR, I THINK WITHIN THE LAST MONTH.

# 446 Q:

AND WHY WERE YOU INSTRUCTED TO WATCH THAT SHOW, IF YOU KNOW?

# 447 A:

THE D.A.'S OFFICE WANTED ME TO LOOK AT A MISS KATHLEEN BELL AND SEE IF I RECOGNIZED HER.

# 448 Q:

OKAY. HAD YOU SEEN HER EARLIER ON ANY OTHER SHOW?

# 449 A:

NO.

# 450 Q:

YOU HAD NOT SEEN A SHOW CALLED DATELINE?

# 451 A:

NO.

# 452 Q:

YOU DID NOT SEE YOUR LAWYER ON THAT SHOW?

# 453 A:

NO.

# 454 Q:

OKAY. DO YOU KNOW OF A MARINE RECRUITING STATION DOWN IN YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD?

# 455 A:

YES, I DO.

# 456 Q:

HAD YOU BEEN THERE IN 1986?

# 457 A:

I BELIEVE I WAS IN THE RECRUITING OFFICE TWO OR THREE TIMES ABOUT THAT TIME, YES.

# 458 Q:

DID YOU IN FACT MAKE APPLICATION TO REENTER THE MARINE CORPS?

# 459 A:

NO, I DIDN'T.

# 460 Q:

DID YOU FILL OUT ANY PAPERS AT ANY TIME DURING ANY OF YOUR VISITS DOWN THERE?

# 461 A:

NO, I DON'T BELIEVE I DID. NO.

# 462 Q:

DID YOU MEET A SERGEANT NAMED JOE FAUS?

# 463 A:

YES, I DID.

# 464 Q:

AS A MARINE, IS THAT A SIGNIFICANT NAME TO YOU?

# 465 A:

YES. I BELIEVE IT WAS EITHER HIS -- I BELIEVE IT WAS HIS GRANDFATHER WHO WAS A FAMOUS AVIATOR.

# 466 Q:

THE GREATEST ACE THE MARINE CORPS HAS EVER PRODUCED; WAS HE NOT?

# 467 A:

YES, SIR.

# 468 Q:

JOE FAUS OF NORTH DAKOTA?

# 469 A:

YES, SIR.

# 470 Q:

NOW, HOW MANY TIMES DID YOU MAKE THE ACQUAINTANCE OF MR. FAUS IN THAT STATION OR IN THE SAME GENERAL AREA?

# 471 A:

TWO OR THREE.

# 472 Q:

AND DID MR. FAUS EVER INTRODUCE YOU TO A BLOND LADY?

# 473 A:

I DON'T RECALL BEING INTRODUCED, NO.

# 474 Q:

WELL, WHEN YOU SAY YOU DON'T RECALL, DOES THAT MEAN IT MAY HAVE HAPPENED, BUT YOU CAN'T NOW DREDGE UP ANY RECOLLECTION OF THE EVENT OR YOU'RE PRETTY CERTAIN IT NEVER HAPPENED? WHICH DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?

# 475 A:

WHAT I'M CERTAIN IS IS THAT I DIDN'T MEET KATHLEEN BELL AT THAT LOCATION.

KEY QUOTE

# 476 Q:

OKAY. NOW, IN ORDER TO DETERMINE THAT, YOU ARE RELYING ON HER IMAGE BEING SHOWN ON A TELEVISION SHOW WHILE SHE WAS BEING INTERVIEWED, CORRECT?

# 477 A:

THAT AND HER NAME.

# 478 Q:

WELL, LET'S SEPARATE. YOU SAY YOU'RE SURE YOU NEVER MET A WOMAN NAMED KATHLEEN BELL?

# 479 A:

YES, SIR.

# 480 Q:

YOU HAVE TO ANSWER FOR THE RECORD.

# 481 A:

YES, SIR.

# 482 Q:

DID YOU EVER MEET A WOMAN THAT LOOKS LIKE THE LADY ON THE LARRY KING SHOW BY SOME OTHER NAME?

# 483 A:

NO.

# 484 Q:

IN LOOKING AT THAT FACE -- HOW LONG DID YOU WATCH THE SHOW THAT NIGHT?

# 485 A:

ABOUT FIVE MINUTES.

# 486 Q:

WAS THAT ENOUGH TO SATISFY YOU THAT YOU HAD NEVER SEEN THIS WOMAN BEFORE?

# 487 A:

I DID NOT RECOGNIZE HER.

# 488 Q:

THAT WASN'T MY QUESTION. WERE YOU SATISFIED AFTER FIVE MINUTES -- AND I TAKE IT YOU DISCONTINUED VIEWING THE SHOW -- THAT THE WOMAN BEING INTERVIEWED BY LARRY KING AND IDENTIFYING HERSELF AS KATHLEEN BELL WAS SOMEONE YOU HAD NEVER MET?

# 489 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

# 490 Q:

OKAY. IS IT NOT TRUE THAT YOU WOULD HAVE RECOLLECTED SUCH A PERSON IF YOU HAD MET THEM UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES SHE DESCRIBED WITHOUT GOING INTO WHAT THEY WERE?

# 491 A:

YES, I WOULD.

# 492 Q:

THAT KIND OF THING WOULD IMPRESS YOUR MEMORY THE SAME WAY THE MEETING OF O.J. SIMPSON WOULD; WOULD IT NOT?

# 493 A:

I DON'T THINK IN THE SAME WAY, BUT SIMILAR, YES.

# 494 Q:

WELL, WHAT SHE WAS DISCUSSING WAS FAIRLY OUTRAGEOUS CONDUCT; IS IT NOT?

KEY QUOTE

# 495 A:

YES, SIR.

# 496 Q:

OKAY. AND IF YOU HAD ENGAGED IN THAT CONDUCT WITH THE WOMAN WHOSE IMAGE YOU WERE LOOKING AT, THAT'S NOT SOMETHING YOU WOULD SOON FORGET, IS IT?

KEY QUOTE

# 497 A:

NO.

# 498 Q:

OKAY.

# 499 MR. BAILEY:

CAN I APPROACH, YOUR HONOR?

# 500 THE COURT:

YOU MAY.

# 501 MR. BAILEY:

THANK YOU.

# 502 Q:

BY MR. BAILEY: DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, WOULD YOU TAKE A LOOK AT THIS PHOTOGRAPH OF A BLOND WOMAN AND TELL ME WHETHER OR NOT THAT IS THE PERSON THAT WAS BEING INTERVIEWED BY LARRY KING WHEN YOU WATCHED THE SHOW AT THE REQUEST OF THE PROSECUTION.

# 503 A:

YES.

# 504 THE COURT:

HAVE WE MARKED THAT, MR. BAILEY?

# 505 MR. BAILEY:

YES. DEFENDANT'S NEXT IN ORDER.

# 506 THE COURT:

1053.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (4)

Mark Fuhrman

PLANTING EVIDENCE? NO, IT ISN'T.

Bailey asked whether Fuhrman had training in perpetrators planting evidence; Fuhrman's flat denial carries ironic weight given the defense theory that Fuhrman himself planted the glove at Rockingham.

Mark Fuhrman

WHAT I'M CERTAIN IS IS THAT I DIDN'T MEET KATHLEEN BELL AT THAT LOCATION.

Fuhrman emphatically denies meeting Bell at the Marine recruiting station — a denial that sets up her impeachment testimony about his alleged racist statements and comments about O.J. Simpson.

F. Lee Bailey

WHAT SHE WAS DISCUSSING WAS FAIRLY OUTRAGEOUS CONDUCT; IS IT NOT?

Bailey obliquely signals to the jury the nature of Bell's allegations against Fuhrman without yet stating them, getting Fuhrman to agree the conduct described would be memorable.

Mark Fuhrman

AND IF YOU HAD ENGAGED IN THAT CONDUCT WITH THE WOMAN WHOSE IMAGE YOU WERE LOOKING AT, THAT'S NOT SOMETHING YOU WOULD SOON FORGET, IS IT? / NO.

Fuhrman concedes he would remember outrageous conduct with such a woman, locking him into a denial that Bell will directly contradict.

Evidence (4)

Defense 1053

Photograph of Kathleen Bell, identified by Fuhrman as the blonde woman interviewed by Larry King on the show the DA's office instructed him to watch

introduced and identified by witness

Informal

LAPD homicide kit contents: coveralls, work gloves, rubber gloves, pliers, rope, flashlights, rulers, tape measures, plastic bags, envelopes, grease pencils, compass

discussed; Bailey specifically highlighted the presence of rubber gloves in the kit

Informal

Bloody footprints/shoeprints on the Bundy walkway, described as ending before the first set of steps descending into the trough

discussed; Fuhrman confirms he saw no prints extending beyond the first flat level

Informal

Blood drops and change on the driveway outside the back gate, pointed out by Officer Riske

referenced in timeline reconstruction

Notable Exchanges (4)

F. Lee Bailey•Mark Fuhrman

Bailey asks in detail what the homicide kit contains, steering specifically to the presence of rubber gloves and work gloves — implicitly raising the question of whether gloves in the kit could account for the glove found at Rockingham.

strategic

F. Lee Bailey•Mark Fuhrman

Bailey walks Fuhrman through a precise minute-by-minute reconstruction (2:10 arrival, 2:20 departure from crime scene, ~2:30 at back gate), pinning down the narrow window during which Fuhrman was alone or unobserved — relevant to the defense theory about the Rockingham glove.

methodical

F. Lee Bailey•Mark Fuhrman

Bailey introduces the Kathleen Bell line of questioning through the Marine recruiting station, getting Fuhrman to deny meeting her while simultaneously acknowledging he would certainly remember 'outrageous conduct' she allegedly described.

strategic

Lance A. Ito•F. Lee Bailey

Judge Ito interrupts Bailey mid-question to instruct him to allow the witness to finish answering before starting the next question.

procedural

Credibility Attacks (2)

⚔ Mark Fuhrman

prior inconsistent statement / witness contradiction setup

Bailey establishes Fuhrman's denial of ever meeting Kathleen Bell and his claim he would remember 'outrageous conduct,' laying the foundation for Bell to testify that Fuhrman did meet her and made racist statements about wanting to 'get' Black men including O.J. Simpson.

⚔ Mark Fuhrman

omission / failure to follow procedure

Bailey elicits that Fuhrman issued no orders about who could cross the yellow tape, did not inquire whether the area had been searched for weapons or evidence, did not canvass neighbors himself, and did not contact the children at the police station — suggesting a detective who was either distracted or not truly running the investigation.

Witness Demeanor

Fuhrman hedges on timeline estimates, repeatedly saying 'I don't know' when pressed for exact times

Fuhrman corrects Bailey on the year (Bailey says 'last fall,' Fuhrman says 'this year') regarding the Larry King instruction

Fuhrman pauses and asks Bailey to repeat a question about the footprints extending into the trough area

Objections

4 objections (1 sustained, 2 overruled)

Proceeding 5266 • 506 utterances • Prosecution witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103