📄 Direct examination of Dr. Lakshmanan Sathyavagiswaran (part 5) — Tuesday, June 6, 1995
Address:
C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\JUN\6\DIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-DR-LAKSH.DOC
TRIAL
▲ Day 89 of 167

Direct examination of Dr. Lakshmanan Sathyavagiswaran (part 5)

Witness: Dr. Lakshmanan Sathyavagiswaran
Examiner: Brian Kelberg
Called by: Prosecution • Date: Tuesday, June 6, 1995 • Utterances: 92
Kelberg marks four knives as demonstrative exhibits (332-335) and uses them alongside a forensic diagram (336) to have Dr. Lakshmanan educate the jury on how knife blade width and penetration depth affect stab wound characteristics. The doctor establishes two key forensic principles: wider blades leave longer surface wounds, and a single knife can produce stab wounds of varying lengths depending on how deeply it penetrates.
1 (The following proceedings were held in open court:)
2 THE COURT:

All right. Mr. Kelberg, you may proceed.

3 MR. KELBERG:

Thank you, your Honor. I was about to mark some exhibits. I have a knife that has the inscription "Grand Chief Sabatier" not in the sinister sense, S-A-B-A-T-I-E-R. I would ask that this and its sheath be marked as exhibit 332.

4 THE COURT:

All right. 332.

5 (Peo's 332 for id = knife)
6 MR. KELBERG:

I have what appears to be a knife with a black handle and the words "Forschner," F-O-R-S-C-H-N-E-R, and a "No. 810-7" be marked as 333.

7 THE COURT:

333.

8 (Peo's 333 for id = knife)
9 MR. KELBERG:

And I have what appears to be another knife, this with a brown wooden handle, Forschner and the no. 405-6 as 334.

10 THE COURT:

So marked.

11 (Peo's 334 for id = knife)
12 MR. KELBERG:

And finally, a knife that has a black handle and the words "Black Panther Solingen," S-O-L-I-N-G-E-N. May it and its sheath minus the price tag, I hope, your Honor--

13 THE COURT:

Yes.

14 MR. KELBERG:

--be marked as exhibit 335?

15 THE COURT:

So marked

16 (Peo's 335 for id = knife)
17 MR. KELBERG:

Doctor, first of all, you have had a chance to look at these knives before; is that correct?

18 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes.

19 MR. KELBERG:

And the purpose of these knives is to give the jury an understanding of the differences in class characteristics of knives; is that correct?

20 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes.

21 MR. KELBERG:

There is no representation made that any one of these knives is in any way connected to any of the injuries sustained by either Nicole Brown Simpson or Ronald Goldman; is that correct?

22 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes.

23 THE COURT:

All right. Ladies and gentlemen, I'm allowing the use of these knives solely for demonstrative purposes to display to you different types of knives. All right. Just for illustrative purposes.

KEY QUOTE
24 MR. KELBERG:

Thank you, your Honor.

25 MR. KELBERG:

Now, doctor--and perhaps you can step to the board again.

26 (Witness complies.)
27 MR. KELBERG:

In this area of thickness of blade and looking at the knives--let me start with the first knife that was marked in this series. Can you demonstrate for the jury--and perhaps it would be better perhaps if you actually went to about the middle of the jury box. I'm not sure--okay. I'm not sure--Mr. Fairtlough, can you put this on?

28 MR. FAIRTLOUGH:

Yes.

29 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

That will be easier.

30 THE COURT:

All right. Referring to 332.

31 MR. KELBERG:

Yes, your Honor.

32 (Brief pause.)
33 THE COURT:

Is that the one from the sheath?

34 MR. KELBERG:

Yes.

35 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

What you are seeing is the width of the blade here and one--the lower end is the sharp end, and if you turn the blade, you can see the lower end is the sharp end. And if you turn the blade the other side, you will see the dull end of the blade. You can see it is dull. And this is a example of a single-edged blade which was seen on the diagram.

36 MR. KELBERG:

Now, if Mr. Fairtlough can hold that one and also hold what is exhibit 333, excuse me, so that we can see the width of the blades--thickness, I'm sorry, of these two blades to see if there is any difference.

37 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

They are to be held parallel to each other. Parallel in showing the thickness, so you can see the thickness.

38 MR. KELBERG:

Now, doctor, is this again a single-edged knife?

39 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes. Both of them appear to be single-edged knives.

40 MR. KELBERG:

In your experience are there single-edged knives which have thicker blades?

41 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes, they do.

42 MR. KELBERG:

Are there single-edged knives which have longer blades?

43 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes, they do.

44 MR. KELBERG:

If Mr. Fairtlough can lay them on their side.

45 MR. KELBERG:

Is there a difference in the width of these two knife blades?

46 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

The one on the top looks thicker than the one on the bottom, but I need to measure them to be exact, but the upper one, the stockier knife, appears to be having a thicker--thicker blade than the lower blade.

47 MR. KELBERG:

Doctor, assuming one took these two knives and inflicted a stab wound on a human being, how, if at all, would the difference in the width of the knife blade appear with respect to the stab wound that you would see on the surface?

48 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yeah. The general dictum in knife wounds is a smaller knife can cause a larger wound because of the rocking motion which I will discuss a little bit later, but usually a larger knife cannot cause a smaller opening in the skin. For example, if you take the knife which is--which the arrow is pointing to right now, has a wider blade near the base, near the handle, contrast that to the lower knife where the knife blade is not as wide, it looks as though it is half as wide--I have not measured the knives--and so if you have a wound which has the depth of this knife, there is no evidence of any rocking motion and it is a straight penetration, you can see that the other knife at that depth will be having a longer wound on the body's surface because it is wider.

KEY QUOTE
49 MR. KELBERG:

Your Honor, I have another board--

50 THE COURT:

Mr. Kelberg, I think we ought to have the record reflect that the upper knife in this record is 332; the lower knife being 333.

51 MR. KELBERG:

All right. That's fine. Thank you, your Honor.

52 THE COURT:

All right.

53 MR. KELBERG:

And I have another board which I would ask to be marked--

54 THE COURT:

336.

55 MR. KELBERG:

Thank you, your Honor.

56 (Peo's 336 for id = posterboard)
57 MR. KELBERG:

And I need Mr. Lynch's assistance here.

58 (Brief pause.)
59 MR. KELBERG:

And Mr. Fairtlough, I think if you can put this and focus in on the--

60 THE COURT:

All right. 165, can you see that?

JUROR 165: Yes, sir.

61 THE COURT:

All right. Thank you.

62 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Can I approach the board, your Honor?

63 THE COURT:

Yes.

64 MR. KELBERG:

Just a second. If you will wait, doctor, I think Mr. Fairtlough is going to be able to bring that up on the elmo in case some of the jurors cannot see from the distance.

65 (Brief pause.)
66 MR. KELBERG:

Mr. Fairtlough, it is on page 142. Thank you.

67 MR. KELBERG:

Now, doctor, what you were just talking about, in looking at this diagram on 336, and in particular this upper left-hand area of the diagram, does this relate to that discussion?

68 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes. If you look at this diagram, this is an example of a simple stab wound where there is no movement of the knife, there has been no movement of the subject and the knife has done a straight penetration. And in this particular instance the knife has almost entered the person to its fullest extent, almost to the handle part of the knife. What I was trying to refer to in the earlier discussion was that this width of the blade will correspond to the length of the wound on the body's surface, this wound, (Indicating). So if you have a knife which let's say at five inches is only half an inch wide at the base, with a straight penetration, I'm not talking about complex wound, straight penetration, it should leave a half-an-inch wound on the skin's surface. And of course I'm not going into the elasticity of the skin at this point--I'm just assuming that there is no elasticity--it would reflect the width of the blade. But if you have a knife which we had like we saw on the upper one--

69 MR. KELBERG:

332?

70 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

--332, at the same length, the knife is quite wide, so naturally that wife will not be able to cause this type of wound because if it had to cause a longer wound on the body's surface, by looking at the wound you can tell that knife did not cause this type of wound because of the size of the length of the wound.

71 MR. KELBERG:

Doctor, in shorthand, if the knife penetrates to its thickest portion--I'm sorry, widest portion, widest portion, and you had those two knives before, would the wider knife be expected to leave a longer wound on the surface of the body?

72 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes.

73 MR. KELBERG:

And now, in the part of the exhibit that we have up there, that simple stab wound, in the silhouetted form, the knife, the tip does not appear to be in as far as the tip is of the fully formed out knife. Do you see that?

74 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes.

75 MR. KELBERG:

And so assuming that that silhouetted form represents the same knife, but the depth of penetration is different, would the length of the wound be different even though the same knife is involved in creating both wounds?

76 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Could you repeat your question?

77 MR. KELBERG:

Yes. Using the silhouetted form that is there above--

78 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Okay.

79 MR. KELBERG:

--you see the outline?

80 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes.

81 MR. KELBERG:

Let me approach. Let me borrow the pointer if I could, please. I will call this the silhouetted form.

82 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Okay.

83 MR. KELBERG:

You see, doctor, do you not, that the penetration depth is shorter in that silhouetted form than in the form that shows the knife as it actually appears?

84 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

I follow that.

85 MR. KELBERG:

All right. Now, doctor, assuming that that silhouetted form is the same knife, only the depth of penetration is less, does that affect the length of the wound on the surface of the body that that knife will leave?

86 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes, because most knives taper toward the tip, so if the knife has not fully penetrated the body, the reflection on the skin's surface will only reflect the portion of the blade which entered the body.

KEY QUOTE
87 MR. KELBERG:

Doctor, can the same knife, therefore, leave different stab wounds of different lengths even though it is the same knife involved, depending on the depth of penetration?

88 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Absolutely.

89 MR. KELBERG:

Doctor, is it recognized in forensic pathology that that is the case, that a single knife can leave stab wounds on a body which have all different appearances?

90 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes.

91 MR. KELBERG:

And is that something that is indicated, usually by a photograph, in recognized forensic pathology texts?

92 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes.

Temperature

procedural

Key Quotes (4)

Dr. Lakshmanan Sathyavagiswaran
The general dictum in knife wounds is a smaller knife can cause a larger wound because of the rocking motion which I will discuss a little bit later, but usually a larger knife cannot cause a smaller opening in the skin.
Establishes a foundational forensic principle the prosecution will use to constrain what type of knife could have caused the victims' wounds.
Dr. Lakshmanan Sathyavagiswaran
Absolutely.
Direct confirmation that a single knife can leave stab wounds of different lengths — a key concession that explains wound variation without requiring multiple knives.
Lance A. Ito
Ladies and gentlemen, I'm allowing the use of these knives solely for demonstrative purposes to display to you different types of knives. All right. Just for illustrative purposes.
Ito explicitly limits the jury's use of the knife exhibits, insulating against any inference that these are the murder weapons.
Dr. Lakshmanan Sathyavagiswaran
Most knives taper toward the tip, so if the knife has not fully penetrated the body, the reflection on the skin's surface will only reflect the portion of the blade which entered the body.
Explains mechanically why penetration depth — not just blade width — governs surface wound length.

Evidence (5)

People's 332
Knife with sheath, inscribed 'Grand Chief Sabatier'
introduced as demonstrative exhibit; used to illustrate blade thickness and width
People's 333
Knife with black handle, inscribed 'Forschner No. 810-7'
introduced as demonstrative exhibit; compared side-by-side with 332 to show blade width differences
People's 334
Knife with brown wooden handle, inscribed 'Forschner No. 405-6'
introduced as demonstrative exhibit
People's 335
Knife with black handle and sheath, inscribed 'Black Panther Solingen'
introduced as demonstrative exhibit
People's 336
Posterboard diagram (from forensic pathology text, page 142) illustrating simple stab wound mechanics and the relationship between blade width and surface wound length
introduced and discussed in detail to illustrate Dr. Lakshmanan's testimony

Notable Exchanges (2)

Brian KelbergDr. Lakshmanan Sathyavagiswaran
Kelberg walks Dr. Lakshmanan through a side-by-side physical comparison of knives 332 and 333, using Fairtlough to hold them parallel on the ELMO, to demonstrate that blade width at any given depth of penetration determines surface wound length.
methodical
Brian KelbergDr. Lakshmanan Sathyavagiswaran
Using posterboard 336, Kelberg leads the doctor through the logical chain that a single knife, penetrated to different depths, will leave wounds of different lengths — establishing that wound variation does not require multiple knives.
strategic

Light Moments (1)

Brian Kelberg
Kelberg requests knife 335 be marked 'minus the price tag, I hope, your Honor'

Witness Demeanor

(Witness complies.) — when asked to step to the board

Objections

None recorded
Proceeding 6296 • 92 utterances • Prosecution witness
Criminal Trial
Department 103
⚖️ Start
📂 JUN 6, 1995 📄 Direct examination of Dr. Laks
JUN 6, 1995 KRT DvH TD