Recross-examination of Richard Rubin (part 1)

📄 Recross-examination of Richard Rubin (part 1) — Wednesday, June 21, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\JUN\21\RECROSS-EXAMINATION-OF-RICHARD.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 100 of 167

◀ Redirect examination of Richard Rubin (part 2) Redirect examination of Richard Rubin (part 3) ▶

Witness: Richard Rubin
Examiner: Johnnie Cochran
Called by: Prosecution • Date: Wednesday, June 21, 1995 • Utterances: 151

Cochran recrosses glove expert Richard Rubin, using a tape measure to confirm the Bundy left glove measures 5/8 inch shorter than the reference extra-large gloves. Cochran then draws out admissions that the right glove (Rockingham) has significantly more residue and wear than the left glove, and that Rubin is 'surprised' by the disparity — reinforcing the defense theory that the gloves do not behave as a normal matched pair.

# 1 MR. COCHRAN:

Yes, I do, your Honor.

RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. COCHRAN

# 2 MR. COCHRAN:

With regard to these gloves now that we are talking about, the ones you have in your hand now, you said that if you looked at the left glove you would be able to give the Court and jury some indication as to whether or not you believe that the left glove, or the glove allegedly found at Bundy, was closer to a large or a little bit larger than a large glove now?

# 3 MR. RUBIN:

I'm trying to get the lining back in. Once I get the lining back in, I think I might be able to figure that out.

# 4 MR. COCHRAN:

Sure, sir.

# 5 (Brief pause.)

# 6 MR. COCHRAN:

You have now--Mr. Rubin, sir, you have now had occasion to examine and try on that left glove. Is it your opinion that that left glove, the left glove allegedly found at Bundy, is smaller than the gloves that we had here in court this morning, items 401?

# 7 MR. RUBIN:

In the finger length, yes, and in the actual palm, I believe this is just slightly smaller than the gloves that we had on here today.

# 8 MR. COCHRAN:

Slightly smaller in the palm and in the finger length. How much in the finger length are they smaller? Can you give us an estimate, sir?

# 9 MR. RUBIN:

It appears a half-inch or better at this point.

# 10 MR. COCHRAN:

A half-inch or better?

# 11 MR. RUBIN:

I could--if I had a tape measure, if I could borrow the tape measure I could tell you.

# 12 MR. COCHRAN:

May I, your Honor?

# 13 THE COURT:

You may.

# 14 (Brief pause.)

# 15 MR. RUBIN:

This is measuring approximately 9 and 3/8. The glove that was on the table before measured 10.

KEY QUOTE

# 16 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. So it would be about 5/8?

# 17 MR. RUBIN:

Yes.

# 18 MR. COCHRAN:

5/8 smaller? This glove is 5/8 smaller; is that correct?

# 19 MR. RUBIN:

Shorter.

# 20 MR. COCHRAN:

Shorter. You measured the length, right, north and south?

# 21 MR. RUBIN:

That's correct.

# 22 MR. COCHRAN:

Okay. And given that 5/8 difference, would that put it in the range, as you have indicated, it may be large to extra large, smaller than the regular extra large, right?

# 23 MR. RUBIN:

As is, this is smaller than the conventional extra large, yes.

# 24 MR. COCHRAN:

So you were right all along, right?

# 25 MR. RUBIN:

I think I was somewhat correct.

# 26 MR. COCHRAN:

But we wanted to just prove it. You will also notice this particular glove, the left glove. As you look at that glove, there is not much in the way of liquid. Look first at the--

# 27 MR. DARDEN:

Objection. That is irrelevant a year later.

# 28 THE COURT:

Do you want to rephrase the question.

# 29 MR. COCHRAN:

Do you see much in the way of liquid on this left glove? And I want you to look first at the fingers here.

# 30 THE COURT:

I think does he see evidence of liquid having been there.

# 31 MR. COCHRAN:

Yes. Let me phrase it appropriately, your Honor.

# 32 MR. COCHRAN:

Do you see evidence of liquid having been there in the last--in the recent past? And look specifically at the gloves--at the fingers of the glove.

# 33 MR. RUBIN:

Something--something was here.

# 34 MR. COCHRAN:

Uh-huh.

# 35 MR. RUBIN:

And the reason I can confirm that is if you notice the grain of the leather has shrunken somewhat compared to the other gloves that have been shown that are new and that is what really happened when the shrinkage occurred, the grain has been pulled up somewhat.

# 36 MR. COCHRAN:

All right.

# 37 MR. RUBIN:

If you notice there is a little more shrinkage in the fingers than maybe down here, (Indicating).

# 38 MR. COCHRAN:

Something was there but you can't tell us what that something was, can you?

# 39 MR. RUBIN:

I cannot.

# 40 MR. COCHRAN:

In fact, you don't see any spots or anything on the fingers of this glove, do you?

# 41 MR. DARDEN:

Objection, that is irrelevant.

# 42 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 43 MR. RUBIN:

I do not see anything--any spots from here up, (Indicating).

# 44 MR. COCHRAN:

All right.

# 45 THE COURT:

Indicating from the fingers up.

# 46 MR. COCHRAN:

He is talking about midway I guess the glove, your Honor?

# 47 MR. RUBIN:

Right.

# 48 MR. COCHRAN:

If you turn it over, you find pretty much the same thing on the other side; is that correct, sir?

# 49 MR. RUBIN:

That's correct.

# 50 MR. COCHRAN:

In that area you don't see any spots, you don't see any real discoloration, do you?

# 51 MR. RUBIN:

I do not.

# 52 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Now, however, with regard to this glove, you--it is possible, is it not, to find some--some spots or some discoloration in the area near the--

# 53 MR. RUBIN:

The vent in the vent.

# 54 MR. COCHRAN:

Isn't that correct?

# 55 MR. DARDEN:

Objection to the form of the question.

# 56 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 57 MR. COCHRAN:

It is possibly visually you can do that, can't you?

# 58 MR. RUBIN:

I can see spots.

# 59 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And this comparing and looking at the two items--and I will be glad to bring back the right glove for you--there appear to be more spots and more residue on the right glove than on the left glove; isn't that correct?

# 60 MR. RUBIN:

I would like to see.

# 61 MR. DARDEN:

Your Honor, beyond the witness' expertise.

# 62 MR. COCHRAN:

May I have this, your Honor?

# 63 THE COURT:

You may. But what he sees on the glove I don't think--unless it goes to the issue of shrinkage directly--

# 64 MR. COCHRAN:

May I ask a question, your Honor?

# 65 THE COURT:

You may.

# 66 (Discussion held off the record between Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)

# 67 MR. COCHRAN:

I'm going to place before you the right glove--and I guess we should change now, please.

# 68 THE COURT:

At this point does anybody anticipate testing these gloves any further?

# 69 MR. DARDEN:

We got everything we need from them, your Honor.

# 70 THE COURT:

All right.

# 71 MR. COCHRAN:

Is the answer no, your Honor?

# 72 THE COURT:

The answer is no.

# 73 MR. COCHRAN:

Move to strike his other remark.

# 74 THE COURT:

But Mr. Rubin, just for your own safety, why don't you use the gloves.

# 75 MR. RUBIN:

Okay.

# 76 (Brief pause.)

# 77 THE COURT:

And Mr. Cochran, would you keep in mind--

# 78 MR. COCHRAN:

Thank you. I will move back.

# 79 MR. COCHRAN:

With regard to this glove, the alleged right glove, which was LAPD no. 9, I don't know the exhibit number, your Honor, does this glove appear to have more of a substance on the leather--

# 80 MR. RUBIN:

Yes, it does.

# 81 MR. COCHRAN:

--than the left glove? That is obvious, is it not?

# 82 MR. RUBIN:

Very much so.

# 83 MR. COCHRAN:

And with regard to those two gloves, would you have expected that the glove on the right, that seems to have more residue of some sort of a liquid, would have shrunk more than the glove on the left, the glove found allegedly at Bundy?

# 84 MR. DARDEN:

That calls for speculation, your Honor.

# 85 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 86 MR. RUBIN:

Yes, I would.

# 87 MR. COCHRAN:

You would expect that? All right. Now, also with regard to the left glove, do you see any cuts on the left glove specifically in the area of this middle finger here, (Indicating)? Do you see any cuts?

# 88 MR. RUBIN:

I do not.

# 89 MR. COCHRAN:

Hum?

# 90 MR. RUBIN:

I do not.

# 91 MR. COCHRAN:

You have had occasion to look on the outside and the inside, have you not?

# 92 MR. RUBIN:

Yes, I have.

# 93 MR. COCHRAN:

You saw this cut, right?

# 94 MR. RUBIN:

Correct.

# 95 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Now, let's turn over the right glove again if we can. This--in the palm of the right glove here, it appears to have--are those wear marks? I think we talked about that before.

# 96 MR. RUBIN:

I can't determine that.

# 97 MR. COCHRAN:

Can't tell whether that was just worn as opposed to anything else?

# 98 (No audible response.)

# 99 MR. COCHRAN:

Does this right glove seem to be more worn as you look at it?

# 100 MR. RUBIN:

It definitely seems to be more worn.

# 101 MR. COCHRAN:

Than the left glove?

# 102 MR. RUBIN:

Yes.

# 103 MR. COCHRAN:

It is possible these are wear spots on this glove; isn't that correct, as an expert?

# 104 MR. DARDEN:

That calls for speculation.

# 105 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 106 MR. RUBIN:

While it is definitely possible and it is definitely true that this is a pair, I'm actually somewhat surprised that this glove is worn to this level and this one isn't, (Indicating).

KEY QUOTE

# 107 MR. COCHRAN:

It appears that the right glove is worn a lot more than the left glove, right?

# 108 MR. RUBIN:

It appears that.

# 109 MR. COCHRAN:

You were asked some questions about people and their buying patterns in buying gloves. People don't usually buy gloves that fit, do they?

# 110 MR. DARDEN:

Objection, that is vague.

# 111 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 112 MR. RUBIN:

Men generally do not generally buy gloves.

# 113 MR. COCHRAN:

Does that answer my question?

# 114 MR. RUBIN:

Well, eighty percent of the gloves.

# 115 MR. COCHRAN:

Let me ask you a question. Men don't generally buy gloves?

# 116 MR. RUBIN:

They do not.

# 117 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. But if men--I guess men do buy gloves sometimes and if they buy gloves they generally buy gloves that fit, don't they?

# 118 MR. RUBIN:

Correct.

# 119 MR. COCHRAN:

Because as a former salesperson, that is the salesperson's job, to get the person a pair of gloves that fit; isn't that correct?

# 120 MR. RUBIN:

That's correct.

# 121 MR. COCHRAN:

You described for us how you put the gloves on and move them around and see if they are snug or whatever and you make a judgment, right?

# 122 MR. RUBIN:

That's correct.

# 123 MR. COCHRAN:

If you had a pair of gloves that didn't fit, you would get rid of them? Isn't that normal?

# 124 MR. DARDEN:

Objection, that is speculation.

# 125 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 126 MR. COCHRAN:

Isn't that right?

# 127 MR. RUBIN:

I think the first thing you do is return them.

# 128 MR. COCHRAN:

Return them or get rid of them, right? If they don't fit they are not worth anything to you, are they?

# 129 MR. RUBIN:

Correct.

# 130 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, you have no knowledge of the condition of those two gloves before you, items 9 and 37, on June 12th, 1994, do you?

# 131 THE COURT:

I think that is the third time I've heard this question this morning.

KEY QUOTE

# 132 MR. COCHRAN:

Foundational.

# 133 MR. DARDEN:

This is the third time I would like to object to it.

# 134 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 135 MR. COCHRAN:

It was foundational.

# 136 MR. COCHRAN:

But with regard to that, you have no knowledge of at what point the items before you were shrunk, if they were shrunk at any time?

# 137 MR. DARDEN:

Objection.

# 138 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 139 MR. COCHRAN:

It is a question.

# 140 MR. RUBIN:

I do not.

# 141 MR. COCHRAN:

And when you talked to Mr. Darden on all these occasions, did he show you some charts that had been drawn by the LAPD back on June 21st, 1994, with the actual measurements of those two gloves there before you?

# 142 MR. RUBIN:

Yes, he did.

# 143 MR. COCHRAN:

And so you saw that those--from those charts that the actual fingers had actually been measured back on June 21st, right?

# 144 MR. RUBIN:

That's correct.

# 145 MR. COCHRAN:

And how long did you get have occasion to study those particular charts that he gave you?

# 146 MR. RUBIN:

Just a moment.

# 147 THE COURT:

All right. Anything else, counsel?

# 148 MR. COCHRAN:

May I have just a second, your Honor?

# 149 (Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

# 150 MR. COCHRAN:

Nothing further, your Honor.

# 151 THE COURT:

Mr. Darden.

Temperature

procedural

Key Quotes (4)

Richard Rubin

This is measuring approximately 9 and 3/8. The glove that was on the table before measured 10.

Objective measurement confirming the Bundy glove is 5/8 inch shorter than the reference extra-large, corroborating that OJ's gloves would not fit.

Richard Rubin

While it is definitely possible and it is definitely true that this is a pair, I'm actually somewhat surprised that this glove is worn to this level and this one isn't.

Rubin's surprise at the wear disparity between the two gloves is an unexpected admission supporting the defense's narrative that something is anomalous about the evidence.

Richard Rubin

Yes, it does... Very much so.

Rubin confirms the right glove has substantially more residue than the left — raises questions about differing treatment or handling of the two gloves.

Lance A. Ito

I think that is the third time I've heard this question this morning.

Judge's mild rebuke of Cochran for repetitive questioning; Darden's sustained objection was the only one fully granted in this segment.

Evidence (4)

People's 9

Right glove allegedly found at Rockingham

Physically examined; Rubin confirms it has significantly more residue and wear than the Bundy glove

People's 37

Left glove allegedly found at Bundy

Measured with tape measure at 9 3/8 inches finger length; compared to reference gloves and right glove

Defense 401

New reference extra-large Aris gloves used for in-court comparison

Referenced as baseline; measured at 10 inches, confirming Bundy glove is 5/8 inch shorter

Informal

LAPD charts from June 21, 1994 with actual glove finger measurements

Discussed — Rubin confirms Darden showed them to him but he only had a moment to study them

Notable Exchanges (3)

Johnnie Cochran•Richard Rubin

Cochran borrows a tape measure from the court and has Rubin measure the Bundy glove on the spot, establishing the 5/8-inch shortfall versus the reference gloves. Rubin confirms Cochran's earlier assertion was 'somewhat correct.'

strategic

Johnnie Cochran•Richard Rubin

Cochran elicits that the right (Rockingham) glove has 'very much so' more residue and wear than the left (Bundy) glove, and that Rubin is 'surprised' by the disparity for a claimed matching pair.

revealing

Lance A. Ito•Johnnie Cochran•Christopher Darden

Judge notes Cochran has asked the same foundational question about the gloves' condition on June 12, 1994 three times; sustains Darden's objection on that basis.

tense

Light Moments (1)

Lance A. Ito

Ito tells Rubin 'for your own safety' to use protective gloves while handling the evidence gloves, after the court confirms no further testing is needed on them.

Credibility Attacks (2)

⚔ Richard Rubin

prior inconsistent statement / confirmation of prior testimony

Cochran uses the tape measure measurement to confirm Rubin was 'right all along' that the Bundy glove is smaller than an extra-large, subtly implying the prosecution's redirect had obscured this.

⚔ LAPD evidence handling

physical condition of evidence

Cochran draws attention to the asymmetric residue and wear between the two gloves of the alleged pair, suggesting differential treatment or tampering rather than normal use.

Witness Demeanor

(Brief pause.) — Rubin working to reinsert glove lining before examination

(Brief pause.) — Rubin measuring glove with tape measure

(Brief pause.) — Off-record discussion between counsel before right glove comparison

(No audible response.) — Rubin does not verbally answer question about wear marks on palm

Objections

10 objections (2 sustained, 7 overruled)

Proceeding 6493 • 151 utterances • Prosecution witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103