All right. Back on the record in the Simpson matter. Mr. Simpson is again present before the Court with his counsel. The People are represented. The jury is not present. Mr. Shapiro, did everything go well with Mr. Metzner yesterday?
Yes, your Honor. We would like to have Mr. Simpson try on a new pair of Aris leather lights.
All right. This is one of the exemplar pairs that we received from Aris Isotoner yesterday; is that correct.
May I add a couple other exhibits so that Mr. Cochran can respond to those while he is at the podium? We want to ask that Mr. Simpson be required to put the gloves on over at the Defense table and then walk over to the jury after he has placed them on his hands. We are going to ask the Court to direct Mr. Simpson not to communicate with the jurors, certainly not to communicate with me as well.
And when do you propose to do this? During the course of your request to recall Mr. Rubin?
All right. And what else are you going to be calling Mr. Rubin for other than to testify that these gloves have the Brossier stitching and are exact replicas or part of the batch that was produced back in `90, `91.
We are going to ask him to take a look at Mr. Simpson's hands after he places the gloves on and then we are going to have him step back up on the witness stand and indicate whether or not it is a perfect fit or something less and talk to him a little bit about the lining and a little bit more about shrinkage. And it shouldn't take very long at all.
Now, in the event that Mr. Simpson is unable to place his hand in the glove, we have gentlemen here whose hands are larger than Mr. Simpson's.
Spending an awful lot of time on gloves. The problem, however, is, your Honor, last Thursday the Prosecution made a calculated decision to have Mr. Simpson try on some gloves that did not fit and they are the relevant gloves in this case. And I want to address that issue to the Court at this point. I want to talk to the Court. The relevance of the fit of these alleged new gloves depends on showing--showing by the Prosecution, it seems to me, of substantial similarity between the conditions of these new gloves and the gloves in evidence, items 9 and items 37, your Honor. That is what is really relevant. Those gloves were found one at Rockingham allegedly and one at the Bundy scene. So those are the relevant gloves that he tried on last Thursday that didn't fit. Now we are asked to take some gloves that were apparently found in the factory after an exhaustive search, made in the Philippines, then brought forward. And I think the Court may want to take some testimony from Mr. Rubin. We thank you for the opportunity. There are--basically within the extra large gloves there are basically three different sizes in the extra large. Mr. Rubin is in fact an expert in this area and he shared his knowledge with us. There are the perfect extra large, the snug extra large and the oversize extra large, and so that, you know, within the extra large there is a little bit of play or give. We talked to him about that. He or no one else can tell us the condition of those gloves, the gloves in evidence, as of June 12th, which is the relevant time, your Honor. We do know in fact that as of June 21st some measurements were taken of 9 and 37, so we know those particular measurements. But we are now--now on June 21st, 1995, and so, you know, this is an experiment that doesn't make any sense. Doesn't matter whether these gloves would fit Mr. Simpson or these other gentlemen at this time if they are extra large. In fact, I think Mr. Rubin would testify, if we were allowed some brief hearing--is time flying?--if Mr.--
Your Honor, with regard--if Mr. Rubin will testify that extra large gloves will--within the range that I just described for you, will fit 99.5 percent of all men in America--and that is all nice to know and the jury needs to be told that because what does that have to do with anything? The question is the gloves in this case so it is not--it is not particularly helpful. Mr. Rubin will talk about gloves stretching out from north to south and Mr. Darden has already told us that they have two very large men here who purport to have hands bigger than Mr. Simpson and they have tried these gloves on. I mean, they are being a lot more careful. These are stretched out by their hands--so I mean these are not pristine gloves. Mr. Rubin will also say these--that the gloves in evidence, 9 and 37, have been handled in such a way he can't tell us anything about how they were back on June 12th or on June 21st, which would be a much more relevant time. And he himself saw two men who I presume are Messers. Bell and Stevens, try on these gloves that our client is now going to be asked to try on today. That is not fair. We don't have any pristine gloves from that standpoint. Further, if the Court pleases, it just seems like under the cases that I now want to cite to the Court, that you have the authority, you have the discretion to exclude this bogus courtroom demonstration in which they seek to recapture some credibility for the mistakes they made last Thursday. And I would ask the Court to read several cases that I think would be on point or at least with regard to the exclusion of evidence. And I would cite to the Court the case of People versus V-A-I-Z-A, 244 cal.app.2D, 121. I would cite additionally People versus Boyd, 222 cal.app.3D, 541, People versus Gilbert, 5 cal.app.4th, 1372, People versus Bonin, 47 cal.3D, 808. And the key issue with respect to substantial similarity is not that they are the same glove, your Honor, but the condition of the gloves, and that is what we are talking about, the alleged shrinkage, if any, the alleged condition, if any. If Mr. Rubin can't tell us whether those gloves, when they were purchased, if they were purchased back in 1990, were the snug extra large, the perfect extra large or the oversize extra large, and so that is a real problem. The condition of the gloves at that time, at the time on June 12th, is what's relevant to this jury and we are not here to mislead this jury. We are not here to try to have somebody recover from a mistake they made. This is not anything personal. This is a case that your Honor will make us try based upon what's appropriate evidence and that is not fair to my client. As to the next point, I just want to point out to the Court that--and you sustained many of my objections.
It was Mr. Darden who was doing most the talking. You had allowed a demonstration, and Mr. Darden took it upon himself to go forward and ask Mr. Simpson to grip something because they were embarrassed and he kept talking and I kept objecting and it was totally unfair. They are the ones who asked to have Mr. Simpson over there. Now, because they are so wounded, they don't want him over there. That is unfair. If he is going to try on these gloves, he should try them on right in front of the jury again, but the point--let me just summarize what I have tried to say. These gloves would fit almost every male in America, these new gloves, and especially since they have been stretched, so they are being very cautious. What they have done to today, your Honor? They have his hands measured, they bring two big fellows down here who had their hands in these gloves. They have Mr. Rubin have his hands in these gloves. What kind of test is this? We are spinning their wheels because they want to end on some kind of a high note. And I think it is very important--and the burden of proof is on the Prosecution to show that there is substantial similarity of the conditions of these gloves and they can't do it. And we ask for a hearing on that point before we proceed, your Honor. It is totally unfair. And if you rule against us--and I would ask you to look at these cases because you have wide discretion in this matter--and I would ask you to do that, and then--when you rule against us, certainly Mr. Simpson should be able to try these gloves on front of the jury, just as he did before, and if there is going to be--and I would ask you to caution counsel not to make all these statements back and forth. Mr. Simpson was only responding to what he was saying to him and trying to comply and he didn't like the results so now they want to change that. It is really strange, your Honor, where we all hear all this talk for months about the search of truth and they now want to do it in secret and we want it to be in the open. And I would ask the Court to read the cases and I'm specifically for a hearing. If you have any questions about the representations I've made about how many people these gloves would fit, the people that tried on these gloves--and this is just a demonstration that takes no--takes us nowhere and means nothing, your Honor, because the only real test is extremely prejudicial, it seems to us also, so I think that it would be very, very unfair.
I am concerned about the point raised by Mr. Cochran regarding the trying on of these gloves by Messers. Bell and Stevens.
Untrue, your Honor. Mr. Bell and Mr. Stevens tried on a single pair of gloves, the same gloves I myself kept Mr. My possession, another pair of extra large gloves, and only Mr. Rubin has seen those gloves to measure them, so I don't know where he gets that.
All right. So it is your representation to the Court that the ones that were used with Mr. Stevens and Mr. Bell were the second pair?
The record should reflect that yesterday we did receive from Aris four pairs of extra large. The Court kept one, gave two to the Prosecution, gave one to the Defense. I indicated I wanted to keep one--one pair of extra large in the Court's possession for precisely this reason.
Okay. And I have asked Mr. Yochelson to call the general counsel for Aris to obtain another pair.
All right. Do you have any objection then to using the pair--the extra large pair that the Court kept in its custody yesterday for your demonstration, so there is no question, nobody has put these gloves on?
No, I'm not questioning the Court. You have a pair of gloves. I want to take a look at them.
I do agree with Mr. Cochran's point, though, that a foundation will need to be laid whether or not these are in fact, as represented by Mr. Rubin, to be from that particular run, the Brossier stitching, the sizing, et cetera, et cetera.
If there is a demonstration, if you do request that demonstration to take place, it will take place at the direction of the Court. I will direct Mr. Simpson what to do and not to do and counsel will make no comments during the course of that demonstration. Is that clear?
Will the Court kindly lay the ground rules for us in a little detail at side bar before--
No. What I will do is after Mr. Rubin has testified to the foundation, if I'm satisfied with the foundation, then I will allow any other comment at side bar. If I overrule any objections that exist at that time, I will have Mr. Simpson step over to the podium, have him try on those two exemplar gloves, the extra large that the Court kept, and I will direct him to put them on and then to remove them.
Will the Court allow, during the foundational phase at least, before the demonstration, a couple of questions of Mr. Rubin? Would the Court allow that, in fairness?
I will allow you to take him on voir dire for that purpose, for the foundational purpose.
Your Honor, our only concern about having Mr. Simpson, who seems to be in a rather animated mood today, is that to have him come over to the podium and put the gloves on is that he will make facial gestures and other types of things in front of this jury.
KEY QUOTEWell, counsel, the problem is what the jury needs to see is the fit of the gloves. The jury needs to see Mr. Simpson and he needs to be close enough to the jury panel so that they can see him. And the jury can take into consideration what other gestures or facial expressions Mr. Simpson makes during the course of that and determining his credibility--well, not determining his credibility--but in evaluating this demonstration.
But I'm not going to direct him not to make any comments and not to make any overt gestures to the jury.
I'm not allowing him to act, counsel. I'm going to direct him where to stand, what to do, where to turn.
Your Honor, could the record reflect that Mr. Rubin is measuring your Honor's gloves?
Mr. Rubin indicates that your extra large is a little smaller than my extra large.
KEY QUOTEYour Honor, that is precisely the point and that is why this demonstration is bogus and the Court knows you kept this extra large. I made that representation to you. You may want to take some testimony from Mr. Rubin, your Honor, with regard to these gloves. That is the problem within the extra large. There is these three different sizes. And nobody has ever tried these gloves on, but you get this lot out here and it is a real problem for us.
After Mr. Simpson puts on the Court's pair, is there any reason why he can't put on my pair?
Counsel, also I'm going to explain to the jury there were a number of matters that I had to take up out of their presence which counts for the delay. I will tell them about the delay that we are going to have tomorrow because of the hearing we are going to have with Dr. Weir, and the Defense witnesses who I don't recollect, that we will be in session with them tomorrow afternoon. That is the bad news. The good news is that the Prosecution has announced that they will try to wind up by the end of next week. All right. So the jury will have some light at the end of the tunnel. All right. Deputy Magnera, let's have the jurors, please.
And Mr. Darden, will you mark on the label of the Court's pair on the inside of the label, of the attached label, "Court," so we know which one is which.
This is my fondest dream come true.
This is not a modeling show. This is a murder trial.
He or no one else can tell us the condition of those gloves, the gloves in evidence, as of June 12th, which is the relevant time, your Honor.
Our only concern about having Mr. Simpson, who seems to be in a rather animated mood today, is that to have him come over to the podium and put the gloves on is that he will make facial gestures and other types of things in front of this jury.
Mr. Rubin indicates that your extra large is a little smaller than my extra large.