Recross-examination of Gary Sims

📄 Recross-examination of Gary Sims — Tuesday, June 20, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\JUN\20\RECROSS-EXAMINATION-OF-GARY-SI.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 99 of 167

◀ Redirect examination of Gary Sims Equipment removal ▶

Witness: Gary Sims
Examiner: Barry Scheck
Called by: Prosecution • Date: Tuesday, June 20, 1995 • Utterances: 16

Barry Scheck conducted a brief recross of DNA expert Gary Sims, focusing on two points: first, that smearing or smudging of DNA samples can occur even within a single day, undermining any inference about how long evidence sat at the crime scene; second, that sample 50 (from the Bundy rear gate area) showed no readable DNA on the yield gel at all, consistent with severe bacterial degradation.

# 1 THE COURT:

Mr. Scheck.

RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SCHECK

# 2 MR. SCHECK:

That last question that Mr. Harmon asked you about seeing some smearing or smudging, you can't tell us anything, can you, about how much time would cause that kind of slight smearing, can you?

# 3 MR. SIMS:

No. In other words, you typically see that little bit of degradation. It is not unusual to encounter that.

# 4 MR. SCHECK:

Even on something that has been there for a day?

KEY QUOTE

# 5 MR. SIMS:

That's--that's possible, yes.

# 6 MR. SCHECK:

And in addition, in respect to those questions that Mr. Harmon asked you, the difference between sample 50, for example, which is found on the ground at Bundy, within feet of the rear gate, sample 50 had significant bacterial degradation, did it not?

# 7 MR. SIMS:

Well, again, let me check that real quick because I want to make sure that that is one of the samples that we did run the yield gel on. If you give me one moment I will check that.

# 8 MR. SCHECK:

All right.

# 9 MR. SIMS:

(Witness complies.) On DNA 8, which is LAPD no. 50, on that particular sample now we didn't see anything on the yield gel. There was no--there was none of this--no pattern, period. In other words, there was no high molecular weight and there was no degradation pattern.

KEY QUOTE

# 10 MR. SCHECK:

When you say there was nothing on the yield gel, what does that mean in terms of the amount of high molecular weight DNA you have?

# 11 MR. HARMON:

Objection, your Honor, that is beyond the scope. We are on 50 now.

# 12 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 13 MR. SIMS:

In other words, we did not see any high molecular weight DNA from the bloodstain.

# 14 MR. SCHECK:

And that could--that is consistent with a sufficient amount of bacterial degradation that so much of the high molecular weight was eaten away by the bacteria that you couldn't even get a reading on the yield gel?

KEY QUOTE

# 15 MR. SIMS:

That is certainly possible, yes.

KEY QUOTE

# 16 MR. SCHECK:

No further questions.

Temperature

procedural

Key Quotes (4)

Barry Scheck

Even on something that has been there for a day?

Pushes back on any implication that degradation patterns indicate older evidence, keeping open the contamination/planting timeline.

Gary Sims

On DNA 8, which is LAPD no. 50, on that particular sample now we didn't see anything on the yield gel. There was no--there was none of this--no pattern, period.

Confirms that a key Bundy sample produced no usable DNA signal, supporting the defense's degradation narrative.

Barry Scheck

That is consistent with a sufficient amount of bacterial degradation that so much of the high molecular weight was eaten away by the bacteria that you couldn't even get a reading on the yield gel?

Scheck gets Sims to concede that complete bacterial consumption of DNA is a plausible explanation for the null result.

Gary Sims

That is certainly possible, yes.

Expert concession supporting the defense's evidence-degradation theory.

Evidence (1)

LAPD No. 50 / DNA 8

Blood sample collected from the ground at Bundy, near the rear gate; showed no detectable pattern on the yield gel

discussed

Notable Exchanges (1)

Barry Scheck•Gary Sims

Scheck walks Sims through the null yield-gel result on sample 50, eliciting agreement that total bacterial degradation could explain the absence of any DNA signal.

strategic

Witness Demeanor

(Witness complies.) — Sims pauses to check his notes before answering the question about sample 50.

Objections

1 objections (0 sustained, 1 overruled)

Proceeding 6468 • 16 utterances • Prosecution witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103