Johnnie Cochran cross-examines Richard Rubin, the prosecution's glove expert, exposing that Rubin's shrinkage theory was developed only after O.J. Simpson's glove demonstration the previous day, and had never been raised in prior testimony. Cochran also undermines the golf glove testimony by showing Rubin had not worked with the specific manufacturers, had not reviewed purchase records, and was speculating on glove markings. The cross lands a significant blow by establishing that just 3cc of liquid — the amount reportedly found on the gloves — would have no meaningful shrinking effect.
# 1 THE COURT: Mr. Cochran.
# 2 MR. COCHRAN: Thank you very kindly, your Honor.
# 3 THE COURT: You're welcome, sir.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. COCHRAN
# 4 MR. COCHRAN: Good morning, Mr. Rubin.
# 5 MR. RUBIN: Good morning, Mr. Cochran.
# 6 MR. COCHRAN: I thought you were leaving yesterday.
# 8 MR. COCHRAN: In fact, I guess the events--
# 9 MR. DARDEN: Objection, your Honor.
# 10 MR. COCHRAN: I haven't ask any questions, your Honor.
# 11 THE COURT: Ask a question, Mr. Cochran.
# 12 MR. COCHRAN: May I ask a question?
# 13 MR. COCHRAN: As you were leaving yesterday, did you say something to Mr. Simpson?
# 14 MR. DARDEN: Objection.
# 15 THE COURT: Overruled.
# 16 MR. RUBIN: I wished him the best of luck.
# 17 MR. COCHRAN: Yes. And at that time, you thought you were going back to New York; is that right?
# 18 MR. RUBIN: That's correct.
# 19 MR. COCHRAN: You live in New York, New Jersey area, do you, sir?
# 21 MR. COCHRAN: All right. You're still with us, and just briefly, I'd like to ask you some questions. Now, as I understand your testimony, you last worked for the Aris glove manufacturers back in about July 1990; is that correct?
# 22 MR. RUBIN: That's correct.
# 23 MR. COCHRAN: And in your present work, you're not working with gloves per se now, are you?
# 24 MR. RUBIN: No, I'm not.
# 25 MR. COCHRAN: So I'd be correct then that you for the last five years or so have been doing some other kind of work; is that correct?
# 26 MR. RUBIN: That's correct.
# 27 MR. COCHRAN: All right. And with regard to golf gloves, have you ever worked in golf gloves, the manufacture of golf gloves?
# 28 MR. RUBIN: Yes, I have.
# 29 MR. COCHRAN: And when was that?
# 30 MR. RUBIN: 1990 and prior.
# 31 MR. COCHRAN: And that was--Aris makes golf gloves also?
# 32 MR. RUBIN: On occasion, yes, they have.
# 33 MR. COCHRAN: All right. But with regard to the three sets of golf gloves--
# 34 MR. COCHRAN: If I can get them, your Honor?
# 36 MR. COCHRAN: I saw them over here.
# 37 THE COURT: Just lost Mrs. Robertson. Deputy Magnera--Mrs. Robertson, we need the golf gloves.
# 38 MR. COCHRAN: With regard to these three golf gloves which you were asked about on re-re-redirect examination, you never worked for any of these companies, did you, the companies that made these particular gloves?
# 39 MR. RUBIN: I actually was involved with one of the companies that made one of the gloves, but I did not work for that company.
# 40 MR. COCHRAN: All right. So the answer to my question is, you did not work for any of these companies, right?
# 41 MR. RUBIN: No, I did not.
# 42 MR. COCHRAN: And do you play golf?
# 43 MR. RUBIN: On a rare occasion.
# 44 MR. COCHRAN: All right. And have you ever purchased a golf glove?
# 45 MR. RUBIN: No. I just took them out of inventory.
# 46 MR. COCHRAN: No. No, I want--did you report that?
# 47 MR. RUBIN: It's part of the perks.
# 48 MR. COCHRAN: I understand. So with regard to taking them out of inventory, you are aware as a golfer, a sometime golfer that golf gloves are worn very, very tightly; isn't that correct?
# 49 MR. RUBIN: That's correct.
# 50 MR. COCHRAN: And you're aware also, aren't you, if you were a golfer that after you've played with a set of golf gloves for more than one or two rounds, you discard them because they become loose; isn't that correct?
# 51 MR. RUBIN: Not necessarily.
# 52 MR. COCHRAN: How many times--how many rounds of golf have you played in the last year?
# 53 MR. RUBIN: One or two.
# 54 MR. COCHRAN: So you're not--you don't play much golf, do you?
# 55 MR. RUBIN: No, I don't.
# 56 MR. COCHRAN: In the last five years, how many rounds of golf have you played?
# 58 MR. COCHRAN: So in this new job, you don't play much golf, do you?
# 59 MR. RUBIN: Not at all.
# 60 MR. COCHRAN: All right. So you're not an expert in that area, are you?
# 61 MR. RUBIN: As far as golf gloves or playing golf?
# 62 MR. COCHRAN: Yes. I'm talking about the usage of golf gloves while playing golf.
# 63 MR. RUBIN: I am extremely knowledgeable concerning the usage of golf gloves, yes.
# 64 MR. COCHRAN: You are. And is it your testimony that golfers use golf gloves indefinitely and play as many rounds as they want with a set of golf gloves and never throw them away?
# 65 MR. RUBIN: No. That's not true.
# 66 MR. COCHRAN: All right. And, in fact, golf gloves are--they fit very tightly, don't they, sir?
# 68 MR. COCHRAN: And that's one of the requirements as you swing the golf club; isn't that correct?
# 70 MR. COCHRAN: And once they lose or they stretch and they lose that tightness, you generally discard them; isn't that correct?
# 72 MR. COCHRAN: Golf gloves aren't very expensive, are they, sir?
# 73 MR. RUBIN: You want to know the prices of those golf gloves?
# 74 MR. COCHRAN: Yeah. Do you know them?
# 75 MR. RUBIN: Those gloves range from--
# 76 MR. COCHRAN: This glove here, how much is this glove?
# 77 MR. RUBIN: That was most likely a gift, but--
# 78 MR. COCHRAN: Well, isn't that speculation?
# 79 MR. RUBIN: --in general--
# 80 MR. COCHRAN: Wait a minute. How do you know that?
# 81 MR. RUBIN: Because of the logo on the tab. That glove was not necessarily sold. That most likely, it was given away as a gift.
# 82 MR. COCHRAN: You can tell this jury by looking at this tag this golf glove was most likely a gift? You can tell us that?
# 83 MR. RUBIN: It could very well be. Most of the times they're custom made, they're usually part of promotions or benefits during golf outings, et cetera. It could have been a gift. The other two are traditionally purchased.
# 84 MR. DARDEN: Excuse me, your Honor. Which glove is counsel referring to?
# 85 MR. COCHRAN: And for the record, counsel is correct.
# 86 MR. COCHRAN: Which one are we talking about, sir? I'll let you tell us.
# 87 MR. RUBIN: The one with the palm tree on it.
# 88 MR. COCHRAN: Yes. Do you know what company makes this?
# 89 MR. RUBIN: No, I do not.
# 90 MR. COCHRAN: So you have--you have not seen any sales records. You don't know if Mr. Simpson or anyone else bought this, do you?
# 91 MR. RUBIN: I do not.
# 92 MR. COCHRAN: That's just rank speculation, isn't it, on your part?
KEY QUOTE # 94 MR. COCHRAN: All right. Now, with regard to this particular insignia, you had said that--and I'm trying to--the one with the palm tree that you called it had a "PXL" thereon; is that correct?
# 96 MR. COCHRAN: And do you know what the "PXL" stands for?
# 97 MR. RUBIN: I do not know what the "P" stands for. I believe the "XL" stands for the size.
# 98 MR. COCHRAN: Are you aware that the "P" stands for palm extra large? Are you aware of that?
# 99 MR. RUBIN: I've never heard that terminology.
# 100 MR. COCHRAN: Would you be surprised at that?
# 102 MR. COCHRAN: You'd be surprised?
# 104 MR. COCHRAN: As an expert in the field, you'd be surprised if somebody walks in this courtroom and says that this golf glove here with the palm tree thereon, that they make a palm extra large. You would be surprised at that, would you?
# 105 MR. RUBIN: Yes, I would.
# 106 MR. COCHRAN: All right. Now, let's look at the other one, that you said there was a--there was a "CXL" on the Footjoy I think; is that right?
# 108 MR. COCHRAN: And do you know what the "C" stands for?
# 109 MR. RUBIN: I believe it actually stands for cadet extra large.
# 110 MR. COCHRAN: You think that's what it stands for?
# 112 MR. COCHRAN: And what is your basis for that information?
# 113 MR. RUBIN: Traditionally, in the manufacturing of all gloves, the finger length is pretty specifically normal based upon the size of the hand. But on occasion, they make some production with a slightly smaller finger length which is indicated by a "C" or used under the terminology, called cadet.
# 114 MR. COCHRAN: All right. Have you ever worked at Footjoy?
# 116 MR. COCHRAN: All right. And you've never checked any records with regard to whether or not this particular glove that I have in my hand with the "FJ" on--as a logo thereon was purchased by Mr. Simpson or anyone else, do you?
# 118 MR. COCHRAN: And you're not sure what the "C" stands for, but you believe it stands for cadet, extra large?
# 119 MR. RUBIN: I believe so.
# 120 MR. COCHRAN: All right. Now, with regard to the third glove we've been talking about that has--it looks like some kind of a running animal.
# 122 MR. COCHRAN: Is that your indication? But it has something saying Slazenger.
# 123 MR. RUBIN: Slazenger.
# 124 MR. COCHRAN: S-l-a-z-e-n-g-e-r. With regard to that--
# 125 MR. DARDEN: I'm sorry. Can we get the exhibit number, your Honor?
# 126 MR. COCHRAN: Certainly, counsel. 1053-C, counsel.
# 127 MR. COCHRAN: With regard to 1053-C, again, you have no information, you haven't talked to this company, have you?
# 128 MR. RUBIN: No, I haven't.
# 129 MR. COCHRAN: All right. And with regard to the "RXL," do you know what the "R" stands for?
# 130 MR. RUBIN: If I had to speculate, it would be regular XL.
# 131 MR. COCHRAN: Okay. But that's speculation, isn't it?
# 132 MR. RUBIN: Yes, it is.
# 133 MR. COCHRAN: Because you haven't checked that out, have you?
# 135 MR. COCHRAN: All right. Now, with regard to golf gloves, they're not lined either, are they?
# 136 MR. RUBIN: No, they're not.
# 137 MR. COCHRAN: So they're not--they're designed to fit snugly for use in golfing; is that correct?
# 138 MR. RUBIN: That's correct.
# 139 MR. COCHRAN: And prior to yesterday's demonstration by Mr. Simpson, were you ever shown these golf gloves by the Prosecutors?
# 140 MR. RUBIN: No, I was not.
# 141 MR. COCHRAN: When were you first shown these golf gloves?
# 142 MR. RUBIN: When they came out of the bag.
# 143 MR. COCHRAN: This morning?
# 144 MR. RUBIN: When I took them out of the bag right here.
# 145 MR. COCHRAN: In court? But you at some point were told you were going to be asked to stay over, weren't you, from New York?
# 147 MR. COCHRAN: When were you told that?
# 148 MR. DARDEN: Objection. Irrelevant, your Honor.
# 149 THE COURT: Overruled.
# 150 MR. RUBIN: I guess it was approximately an hour or so after court closed yesterday.
# 151 MR. COCHRAN: Were you still upstairs talking about what had happened down here?
# 153 MR. COCHRAN: And you were asked to stay over until today; is that correct, sir?
# 154 MR. RUBIN: That's correct.
# 155 MR. COCHRAN: And you want to go home, don't you?
# 156 MR. DARDEN: Objection, your Honor.
# 157 THE COURT: Of course he wants to go home.
KEY QUOTE # 158 MR. COCHRAN: You want to go home, don't you?
# 159 MR. RUBIN: Yes, I do.
# 160 MR. COCHRAN: All right. We'll try to get you out of here. All right. Now, with regard to your staying over, you spent some time talking with the District Attorneys about your testimony today; isn't that correct?
# 162 MR. COCHRAN: And who did you talk to?
# 163 MR. RUBIN: I spoke primarily with Mr. Darden.
# 164 MR. COCHRAN: And who else was there? Tell us all the people who were there.
# 165 MR. RUBIN: Mr. Darden, Bill Hodgman, David Wooden. There were also some officers.
# 166 MR. COCHRAN: Some investigators of the D.A.'s office?
# 168 MR. COCHRAN: All right. Did you ever see the D.A., Mr. Gil Garcetti? Poked his head in also, did he?
# 169 MR. RUBIN: He put his head in the door once.
# 170 MR. COCHRAN: He came in too, didn't he?
# 172 MR. COCHRAN: All right. And this meeting started what time?
# 173 MR. DARDEN: Objection. Assumes facts not in evidence.
# 174 THE COURT: Sustained. Rephrase the question.
# 175 MR. COCHRAN: This conference, were you all together?
# 176 MR. DARDEN: Same objection.
# 177 THE COURT: Sustained.
# 178 MR. COCHRAN: When you all got together, what time was it?
# 179 MR. RUBIN: I think it was approximately quarter to 6:00.
# 180 MR. COCHRAN: And that get together lasted how long?
# 181 MR. RUBIN: Approximately an hour and 15 minutes.
# 182 MR. COCHRAN: And you were finished at what time?
# 183 MR. RUBIN: Approximately 7:00 o'clock.
# 184 MR. COCHRAN: And did you come back again this morning and have some further conversation?
# 185 MR. RUBIN: Yes, I did.
# 186 MR. COCHRAN: And what time did you get back here this morning?
# 188 MR. COCHRAN: 7:30 A.M.?
# 190 MR. COCHRAN: And--now, first, let's back up for a moment. In the hour and 15-minute meeting that you had last night, whose office was that in?
# 191 MR. RUBIN: Mr. Darden's.
# 192 MR. COCHRAN: And so were there any other D.A.'s, Deputy D.A.'s you can tell us about who were present other than the ones you told us; Mr. Wooden, Bill Hodgman, the District Attorney himself stuck his head in? Anybody else that you can recall?
# 193 MR. RUBIN: I don't--I don't remember all their names. There were people in the hallway--
# 194 MR. COCHRAN: People all around?
# 195 MR. RUBIN: People all around.
# 196 MR. COCHRAN: Okay. Did you see this gentleman here somewhere around?
# 198 MR. COCHRAN: And this gentleman by the--for the record, his name is Scott Gordon. You saw him around?
# 200 MR. COCHRAN: Did you see the lady in the middle, Miss Marcia Clark, anywhere around?
# 201 MR. RUBIN: I saw her walk by the hallway. She didn't come in the office.
# 202 MR. COCHRAN: All right. And there were other people, you just don't know their names; is that correct?
# 203 MR. RUBIN: I just don't remember their names.
# 204 MR. COCHRAN: Okay. I understand, Mr. Rubin. And then you returned this morning by prearrangement I presume at 7:30 A.M.; is that correct?
# 205 MR. RUBIN: That's correct.
# 206 MR. COCHRAN: And where did you go and--where did you talk and meet this morning?
# 207 MR. RUBIN: In Mr. Darden's office.
# 208 MR. COCHRAN: All right. And the meeting started at 7:30?
# 209 MR. RUBIN: Yes, it did.
# 210 MR. COCHRAN: And tell us who was present at 7:30 this morning when you started that meeting.
# 211 MR. RUBIN: Mr. Darden, Mr. Hodgman, this gentleman here (Indicating).
# 212 MR. COCHRAN: Mr. Scott Gordon?
# 213 MR. RUBIN: Yes. Primarily it.
# 214 MR. COCHRAN: All right. Anybody else come in during that meeting?
# 215 MR. RUBIN: Mike Stevens.
# 216 MR. COCHRAN: Mr. Mike Stevens is one of the District Attorney senior investigators?
# 218 MR. COCHRAN: All right.
# 219 MR. RUBIN: I think Tom Lange came in.
# 220 MR. COCHRAN: LAPD Detective Tom Lange?
# 222 MR. COCHRAN: Okay. Anybody else that you recall?
# 223 MR. RUBIN: There were some other people passing back and forth, but I don't remember their names.
# 224 MR. COCHRAN: All right. And that meeting started at 7:30, and how long did it last?
# 225 MR. RUBIN: Until about quarter to 9:00.
# 226 MR. COCHRAN: So right before court?
# 228 MR. COCHRAN: So again, you met then about another hour and 15 minutes more?
# 229 MR. RUBIN: That's correct.
# 230 MR. COCHRAN: And during that time, you talked about your testimony that you would be giving here today; is that correct, sir?
# 232 MR. COCHRAN: You didn't talk about your testimony at all?
# 233 MR. RUBIN: Not at all.
# 234 MR. COCHRAN: You didn't discuss which questions Mr. Darden had typed up to ask you?
# 235 MR. RUBIN: Oh, you mean today's testimony?
# 236 MR. COCHRAN: Yes, sir.
# 237 MR. RUBIN: Yes, we discussed today's testimony.
# 238 MR. COCHRAN: All right. You talked about today's testimony?
# 240 MR. COCHRAN: That's one of the reasons you were having that meeting, wasn't it?
# 241 MR. RUBIN: Correct.
# 242 MR. COCHRAN: All right. And he told you what he was going to be asking you; is that correct?
# 244 MR. COCHRAN: All right, sir. Now, then you came down here to court shortly before 9:00 o'clock, is that correct, to take the stand?
# 245 MR. RUBIN: That's correct.
# 246 MR. COCHRAN: All right. And you were told, were you not, that you were going to be asked--
# 247 THE COURT: Excuse me, counsel.
# 248 MR. COCHRAN: Yes, your Honor.
# 249 THE COURT: Is there something going on we need to know about back there?
# 250 (Brief interruption due to the noise in the audience.) # 251 THE COURT: All right. Proceed, Mr. Cochran. Sorry for the interruption.
# 252 MR. COCHRAN: No problem, your Honor. No problem.
# 253 MR. COCHRAN: You were told during the course of these two meetings of an hour and 15 minutes length each that you would be asked some questions about the golf clubs, is that correct, items 1053 I guess A, B and C?
# 254 MR. RUBIN: It was mentioned that that might occur.
# 255 MR. COCHRAN: All right. So you were aware of that; is that correct?
# 256 MR. RUBIN: That's correct.
# 257 MR. COCHRAN: Okay, sir. Now, let's go back for a moment, and with regard to the two gloves that you have tried on for us--and you shared with us you worked for a period of time prior to 1990 for Aris, and when you left, you were vice president of some kind; is that correct?
# 258 MR. RUBIN: I was vice president, general manager of Aris Isotoner when I left.
# 259 MR. COCHRAN: All right. And those gloves, when they were made between the period we talked about, 1982 to 1992, were they in some way shrink-proof?
# 261 MR. COCHRAN: Did they have some kind of treatment to keep them from shrinking?
# 263 MR. COCHRAN: The manufacturer? Not at all?
# 264 MR. RUBIN: Not at all.
# 265 MR. COCHRAN: And so the--if a person then bought gloves presumably to wear in the winter in the eastern part of the United States, it would be anticipated those gloves would get wet; isn't that correct?
# 266 MR. RUBIN: It would happen on occasion.
# 267 MR. COCHRAN: All right. On occasion, they would become wet; is that right? And with regard to that leather, is that one reason why the fat liquor is--became a part of the process in preparing these gloves?
# 268 MR. RUBIN: That's correct.
# 269 MR. COCHRAN: And the reason why the fat liquor was used was to diminish the amount of shrinkage; is that correct?
# 270 MR. RUBIN: It was more so to have the leather retain its memory and create an elastic capability versus the shrinkage.
# 271 MR. COCHRAN: All right. So elastic capability, which means that it can stretch; is that correct?
# 272 MR. RUBIN: That's correct.
# 273 MR. COCHRAN: All right. So that if gloves, sir--and these gloves cost a lot of money, didn't they? They were--they were beyond the $20 average you told us about, leather gloves; is that right?
# 274 MR. RUBIN: That's correct.
# 275 MR. COCHRAN: So if you bought a pair of gloves in the winter of `90 and they got wet and you put them away, you'd expect to be able to use those gloves again in the winter of `91; isn't that correct?
# 276 MR. RUBIN: That's correct.
# 277 MR. COCHRAN: And your product--you don't make a product that just because they get wet or have some precipitation, that you throw them away at the end of each use. They're not usable gloves. They're not one time usable gloves, are they?
# 278 MR. RUBIN: They are not disposable.
# 279 MR. COCHRAN: All right. These gloves are to last a long time. That's one of the things you pride yourself on; isn't that correct?
# 280 MR. RUBIN: That's correct.
# 281 MR. COCHRAN: And they're made in such a fashion so they are supposed to be elastic and they come back for use; isn't that correct, sir?
# 282 MR. RUBIN: That's correct.
# 283 MR. COCHRAN: Now, are you--as an expert, do you know--assume hypothetically these gloves were purchased in 1989 or in 1990, and let's assume they were worn during the winter, during that time, rain and snow. You can't tell this jury how much those gloves shrunk during that period of time, can you?
# 284 MR. RUBIN: I cannot.
# 285 MR. COCHRAN: You have no way of knowing that, do you?
# 286 MR. RUBIN: I have no way of knowing how much liquid or rain or snow or whatever, you know, elements went onto the product and actually how they were dried.
# 287 MR. COCHRAN: So you have no way of knowing that?
# 288 MR. RUBIN: I do not.
# 289 MR. COCHRAN: It would be rank speculation again if you told us that, wouldn't it?
# 290 MR. RUBIN: I wouldn't speculate on something like this.
# 291 MR. COCHRAN: You wouldn't do that, would you?
# 292 MR. RUBIN: No, I would not.
# 293 MR. COCHRAN: And those gloves we have been talking about, the two gloves, item no. 9, LAPD number, and I think item no. 77, those gloves are--especially one of them is used. It has some--it's worn in the palm area, isn't it?
# 294 MR. RUBIN: That's correct.
# 295 MR. COCHRAN: There's like a hole or something in that palm area; isn't that correct?
# 296 MR. RUBIN: It appears that way.
# 297 MR. COCHRAN: All right. And so that indicates to you those gloves have been used over a period of time; isn't that correct?
# 298 MR. RUBIN: Yes, it does.
# 299 MR. COCHRAN: And so you can't tell us anything about the history of those gloves from `89, `90, `91, `92, `93, `94, whatever, can you?
# 300 MR. RUBIN: No, I cannot.
# 301 MR. COCHRAN: All right. Now, with regard to any liquid that you said you saw on these gloves now, you have not and you do not and cannot measure any liquid that may or may not be on those gloves, can you?
# 302 MR. RUBIN: I don't have that capability.
# 303 MR. COCHRAN: All right. I understand that. And so when you've given us these estimates of the size of these gloves or whatever, that's just your best estimate, is that correct, regarding these gloves?
# 304 MR. RUBIN: After trying them on?
# 305 MR. COCHRAN: Yeah. Trying them on.
# 306 MR. RUBIN: Excuse me?
# 307 MR. COCHRAN: Your best estimate?
# 308 MR. RUBIN: It's my estimate based upon my experience of--in the manufacturing process, I would continually try on all production of all sizes to check quality control.
# 309 MR. COCHRAN: I understand that. You also told us this morning and also yesterday that your gloves were manufactured in such a way that whether a person was a medium or large or extra large, they should be able to fit the same glove. Did you say that?
# 310 MR. RUBIN: What I said specifically was that a person with a size large to extra large hand could get a size medium glove on his hand. That would not be--it would not be comfortable, but it would actually stretch enough to possibly go over his hand. That's what I said.
# 311 MR. COCHRAN: That's because the gloves have elasticity; is that correct?
# 312 MR. RUBIN: Especially at the initial point of purchase.
# 313 MR. COCHRAN: Uh-huh. So that if those gloves now are large under your scenario, someone should be able to fit those on, isn't that correct, someone who wears an extra large?
# 314 MR. RUBIN: No. These gloves have actually decreased in size due to the amount of fat liquor that had been absorbed by certain liquids. So these gloves can never get back to the original size at this point in this specific condition.
# 315 MR. COCHRAN: And you have made that judgment by looking at them, is that correct, regarding the fat liquor?
# 316 MR. RUBIN: I have made the judgment by putting the glove on, comparing it to what I would normally compare a size large or extra large. And the glove is now closer to a large than it was an extra large initially. And I'm going on the assumption that it was clearly, truly an extra large when it was produced.
# 317 MR. COCHRAN: And that's the assumption because you saw an extra large tab in there; is that correct?
# 319 MR. COCHRAN: Okay. And that could have been wrong in the first place, couldn't it?
# 320 MR. RUBIN: Well, in this particular glove, it's not wrong because inside the glove, when the lining was torn away, I did see the "XL" stamping that I had mentioned yesterday along with the other markings.
# 321 MR. COCHRAN: Well, that's assuming that was right at the time it was made in the factory, isn't it?
# 322 MR. RUBIN: That's correct.
# 323 MR. COCHRAN: And you have no way of knowing. You weren't there when it was made, were you?
# 324 MR. RUBIN: I spent an awful lot of time there, but I would definitely not want to commit that I was there when these gloves were made.
KEY QUOTE # 325 MR. COCHRAN: I don't think you would. All right. So you're just relying upon whatever insignia is therein; isn't that correct, sir?
# 326 MR. RUBIN: That's correct.
# 327 MR. COCHRAN: Now, with regard to these gloves, under your scenario then, these gloves have elasticity; is that correct?
# 328 MR. RUBIN: Yes, they do.
# 329 MR. COCHRAN: And you've tried them on yourselves; is that correct?
# 330 MR. RUBIN: That's correct.
# 331 MR. COCHRAN: And you tried them on yesterday at a break where Mr. Shapiro and I and you and Mr. Darden stood at this table and tried on those gloves; is that correct?
# 332 MR. RUBIN: That's incorrect. I never tried on these gloves. I never put on the latex gloves. All I did was look at the gloves.
# 333 MR. COCHRAN: All right. You looked at them. But I'm saying, you saw us try them on?
# 335 MR. COCHRAN: You then watched, right?
# 336 MR. DARDEN: Objection. Irrelevant.
# 337 THE COURT: Overruled.
# 338 MR. COCHRAN: You stood there in this courtroom, saw Mr. Shapiro and I both try on those gloves with latex gloves on our hands. Didn't you see that?
# 339 MR. RUBIN: That's correct.
# 340 MR. COCHRAN: And you and the lady who testified before you, Miss Vemich, stood here and watched that; isn't that correct?
# 342 MR. COCHRAN: All right. And the first time you've actually tried the gloves on is today; is that correct?
# 344 MR. COCHRAN: And all the time that you saw and observed these gloves--didn't you, yesterday? You saw those gloves yesterday? You've got to answer out loud, sir.
# 346 MR. COCHRAN: All right. And had you seen them before that time?
# 347 MR. RUBIN: In person, no.
# 348 MR. COCHRAN: Yeah. Had you seen pictures of them before?
# 349 MR. RUBIN: Yes, I had.
# 350 MR. COCHRAN: In fact, you had given a report to the District Attorney; isn't that correct? You had been interviewed regarding--
# 351 MR. RUBIN: Over the telephone, yes.
# 352 MR. COCHRAN: Right. You had been interviewed regarding your observations?
# 354 MR. COCHRAN: All right. And at no time ever prior to the demonstration of Mr. Simpson yesterday before this jury, you never talked to them about any shrinkage, had you?
# 355 MR. RUBIN: Shrinkage was discussed, yes.
# 356 MR. COCHRAN: You talked shrinkage--you talked to Mr. Darden about shrinkage?
# 357 MR. DARDEN: Objection. Hearsay.
# 358 THE COURT: Overruled.
# 359 MR. COCHRAN: You talked to Mr. Darden about shrinkage?
# 360 MR. RUBIN: We discussed the possibility of shrinkage to a slight degree and that the gloves could be refurbished close to original size depending on the amount of--I didn't get into the technical details with him, but we were aware that the gloves had been saturated with something and not reworked or reconditioned for almost a year.
# 361 MR. COCHRAN: All right. Now, when was that conversation?
# 362 MR. DARDEN: Objection, your Honor. Irrelevant.
# 363 MR. COCHRAN: He can answer that yes or no.
# 364 THE COURT: Overruled.
# 365 MR. COCHRAN: When was that conversation?
# 366 MR. RUBIN: Prior to--I believe it had actually occurred here in the courtroom when we were looking at the gloves, and for the first time, we saw how crumpled they were and how short the fingers appeared.
# 367 MR. COCHRAN: That was yesterday. Is that what you're saying?
# 369 MR. COCHRAN: Okay. But when you testified yesterday before Mr. Simpson was asked to put on those gloves, you never testified about any shrinkage, did you?
# 370 MR. RUBIN: I was never asked about any shrinkage.
KEY QUOTE # 371 MR. COCHRAN: Can you answer my question? You never testified about any shrinkage, did you?
# 372 MR. RUBIN: No, I didn't.
# 373 MR. COCHRAN: All right. And today's the first time you ever talked about shrinkage in connection with this case in court; is that right?
# 374 MR. RUBIN: That's correct.
# 375 MR. COCHRAN: All right. And did you talk about that last night in the meeting that you had upstairs where District Attorney Mr. Garcetti stuck his head in the door? Did you talk about that at that time?
# 377 MR. COCHRAN: Did you talk about that this morning--
# 379 MR. COCHRAN: --when you had the hour and 15 minute meeting this morning with the parties?
# 381 MR. COCHRAN: Now, you testified briefly about this aspect of taking gloves off and how you take gloves off. Recall being asked a question about that?
# 382 MR. RUBIN: I do not.
# 383 MR. COCHRAN: Well, let me ask you this. When gloves are on tight, they're generally removed by pulling the fingers off; isn't that correct?
# 385 MR. COCHRAN: And that's kind of an accepted manner; is that correct?
# 387 MR. COCHRAN: Because if you pull like from the vent, they'll basically turn inside out; isn't that correct?
# 388 MR. RUBIN: That's correct.
# 389 MR. COCHRAN: From the V. From the V, they'll turn inside out, right? All right. These gloves that we've been talking about were specifically ordered for the winter; isn't that correct?
# 390 MR. RUBIN: Yes, they were.
# 391 MR. COCHRAN: We talked yesterday I think about the fact that these gloves were ordered in August and then there was maybe another shipment that came maybe in October?
# 392 MR. RUBIN: September, October, November.
# 393 MR. COCHRAN: And that was in anticipation of cold weather; isn't that correct?
# 394 MR. RUBIN: Correct.
# 395 MR. COCHRAN: And that's one of the reasons they're lined; isn't that correct?
# 396 MR. RUBIN: Correct.
# 397 MR. COCHRAN: And it's anticipated then these gloves would go through weather and precipitation and rain and all kind of things they have back east that we don't have out here?
# 398 MR. RUBIN: That's correct.
# 399 MR. COCHRAN: You described that with regard to the sizing of these gloves, that your company, at least by the time before you left, did make an extra, extra large?
# 400 MR. RUBIN: That's correct.
# 401 MR. COCHRAN: And you described something about the fact that that was perhaps one percent of the population; is that correct?
# 402 MR. RUBIN: Less than one percent.
# 403 MR. COCHRAN: All right. And, you know, one percent of the population right now would be about two million people; isn't that correct?
# 405 MR. COCHRAN: Well, maybe more then. 2.6 million? It's a lot of people, isn't it? Can you answer that yes or no? Is that a lot of people?
# 406 MR. RUBIN: 2.6 million people is a lot of people, but we were only selling men's gloves. So--
# 407 MR. COCHRAN: All right. You think there are many--well, let me see how I can phrase this. You haven't seen many women who've bought extra large gloves, have you, extra, extra large, have you?
# 408 MR. RUBIN: Very rare.
# 409 MR. COCHRAN: It is rare. Most of the people or the individuals who purchase extra, extra large gloves are what?
# 410 MR. RUBIN: Two different scenarios. One--
# 411 MR. COCHRAN: I'm asking if they're male or female is the question.
# 413 MR. COCHRAN: They're male? All right. Have you seen athletes--have you dealt much with athletes?
# 414 MR. RUBIN: Yes, I have.
# 415 MR. COCHRAN: And you've seen some pretty large people, athletes?
# 416 MR. RUBIN: Yes, I have.
# 417 MR. COCHRAN: Who can't buy their clothes off the rack. They usually are tailored; is that correct?
# 418 MR. RUBIN: That is correct.
# 419 MR. COCHRAN: They sometimes have very large appendages. You've noticed that, have you?
# 421 MR. COCHRAN: Are you a basketball fan?
# 423 MR. COCHRAN: And have you recently seen the size of the shoes of Shaquille O'neal?
# 424 MR. RUBIN: Yes, I have.
# 425 MR. COCHRAN: 22 something or other? And so you know that they're athletes who have these large appendages. You hear them saying that, don't you?
# 427 MR. COCHRAN: May I just have a second, your Honor?
# 428 (Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.) # 429 MR. COCHRAN: May I have just a second, your Honor? Thank you.
# 430 (Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.) # 431 MR. COCHRAN: Thank you, your Honor. A few more questions.
# 432 MR. COCHRAN: Mr. Rubin, just a few more questions. Do you--are you aware of how much 3 cc's of liquid amounts to?
# 433 MR. RUBIN: No, I'm not. Excuse me. 3 cc's?
# 435 MR. RUBIN: Yes. I'm very familiar with 3 cc's.
# 436 MR. COCHRAN: And do you think that--I want you to assume arguendo that 3 cc's of liquid is almost two gloves. Do you think that amount of liquid would result in your gloves, your very expensive Aris gloves, shrinking 10 to 15 percent?
# 437 MR. DARDEN: Objection, your Honor. Improper hypothetical.
# 438 THE COURT: Overruled.
# 439 MR. RUBIN: 3 cc's of liquid would have no effect whatsoever on those gloves.
KEY QUOTE # 440 MR. COCHRAN: So if there's testimony that's there only 3 cc's of liquid on those gloves, should have no effect at all? They should be exactly the same size; is that correct?
# 441 MR. DARDEN: Objection. Misstates the testimony.
# 442 MR. COCHRAN: I'm asking.
# 443 THE COURT: Overruled.
# 444 MR. COCHRAN: Is that right?
# 445 MR. RUBIN: That's correct.
# 446 MR. COCHRAN: All right. One last question. With regard to Aris--the Aris--and Mr. Darden kept saying Isotoner. Did you tell us yesterday it wasn't Isotoner, these are Aris lights?
# 447 MR. RUBIN: Isotoner was a different product line than leather gloves. These are Aris leather light gloves.
# 448 MR. COCHRAN: Do you know whether or not the style no. 70263 for Aris light was made for Christian Dior in addition to Bloomingdales so that Christian Dior may have also sold those gloves during that same period of time that we're talking about?
# 449 MR. RUBIN: That was absolutely impossible because Aris Isotoner was the licensing of Christian Dior and assigned different style numbers to Christian Dior product. Aris Isotoner was the distributor of Christian Dior.
# 450 MR. COCHRAN: They were. All right. So my question is, was it possible that Christian Dior distributed or sold the style number 70263?
# 451 MR. RUBIN: Impossible.
# 452 MR. COCHRAN: That's absolutely impossible?
# 453 MR. RUBIN: Absolutely impossible.
# 454 MR. COCHRAN: Could not have happened?
# 455 MR. RUBIN: Could not have happened.
# 456 MR. COCHRAN: All right.
# 457 MR. COCHRAN: Thank you very much for staying over.
# 458 MR. RUBIN: Thank you.
# 459 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Rubin, thank you very much, sir.
# 460 MR. DARDEN: Your Honor, may I--
# 461 THE COURT: Counsel, you asked to reopen on this. Isn't there a end to this at some point?
# 462 MR. DARDEN: Yes, there is, your Honor. I would ask for 10 minutes of the Court's time.