And how long were you with the Aris Isotoner company prior to leaving in July of 1990, sir?
I started as a sales representative in 1976, and then in January of 1981, I became an executive of the management team. So for nine and a half years, from 1981 until approximately August 1st, 1990, I was working in New York out of their main offices.
All right. Now, with regard to what--you call these as Aris light gloves; is that correct?
And you established for us that in your checking, you were able to find out that the Aris Isotoner company did in fact have a style no. 70268; is that correct?
And you are aware on this case that the sales receipt from Bloomingdales from December 18th, 1990 had that particular style number. You're aware of that?
And you've had occasion, have you not, to check--to do some checking regarding that style number, haven't you?
But you were able to ascertain in your search that the style 70268 was exclusive to a customer named herring in Europe; isn't that right?
Okay. Well, let me go back. Let me ask you another question. In your position while you were still with Aris--
All right. And now, with regard then--you've seen prior to your testifying here the Bloomingdales receipt; is that correct?
And you--in looking at that, you never anyplace in that receipt saw the number 70263, did you?
Now, am I correct in assuming that these--this style of glove, the Aris light, was manufactured by Aris in the Philippines; is that correct?
All right. So the first time it would have been produced would be in the fall of `89; is that correct?
And then it's your understanding they were produced again in 1990; is that correct?
All right. And it was your understanding also that they were produced in 1992--`91 and `92; isn't that correct?
All right. And at some point, this Brosser stitching was changed; is that correct?
I had left actually in 1990. However, prior to leaving in 1990, I had already placed production for the `91 year.
I understand. So of your own personal knowledge, you can tell us about `89, `90 and `91, right?
And you told us these were fairly popular--this type of glove was fairly popular; is that correct?
The quantity that was manufactured in this glove was minuscule in the scheme of the amount of leather gloves that Aris produced.
This particular glove was a popular style within Bloomingdales only as an exclusive style.
KEY QUOTEAll right. I understand that. But we're talking now about this particular style, okay?
Now, in that connection, how many of these types of gloves, the Aris light, did you order for the 1989, if you so ordered, for the Bloomingdale stores?
All right. And were all those gloves sold, a thousand and eight dozen, if you know?
All right. And the ones that weren't sold, what happened to them? Were they sent back to the factory? Did they come back the next year or what?
Generally speaking, they're returned to the manufacturer, refurbished if necessary and held for shipment the following year.
So all--of the thousand and eight dozen that were ordered for 1990, those that weren't sold were more than likely returned in 1990; isn't that correct?
Yes. But of the thousand and eight dozen that were ordered, if the return was excessive and the management team realized that they didn't need that amount of merchandise, they would reduce the order in February, March of 1990 to offset the amount that was returned, thus keeping the net available at approximately a thousand dozen.
All right. Well, let's talk about that. How many then were on original order by Bloomingdales of the Aris light for 1990?
When I left at the end of July in 1990, there was approximately a thousand dozen on order.
Did you ever indicate to anyone that--that you believe that the original order by Bloomingdales of the Aris light gloves was approximately 6,000 pairs? Did you ever indicate that?
If someone indicated that there may have been as many as 10- to 12,000 pairs of these Aris Isotoner gloves or Aris light gloves, would that be correct?
So then the--your best estimate is that the original order in--for 1990 would be close to 10,000 pairs?
It's--it's one style. You want to know the total quantity sold to Bloomingdales in leather gloves?
So that we're fixed--so that we're understanding each other, when you talk about the 10,000 pairs, you're talking about the Aris light, right?
Okay. And so what you're telling us is that there was something like 10,000 pairs of these gloves on order for the 1990 season as it were; is that right?
Now, of that 10,000 pairs--and of course, you had left the company at that point, but if they didn't sell all the 10,000 pairs that year in 1990, they would then return some of those, recycle some of those back for 1991 depending upon the demand of the order; isn't that right?
And then do you know how many were ordered for 1991, how many thousands of pairs?
Before I left, I probably would have put anywhere between 5- and 600 dozen into production to get the production flowing assuming that approximately 25 to 30 percent of what was delivered in the fall of 1990 would be returned.
So 7200. So that would be--so a little bit less than in 1990. If 1990 was 10,000 pairs, then you think maybe 7200 in 1991?
If they received--if they actually took in--after I left, if they actually took in all 10,000 pair, they probably would have sold 7- to 7500 of the 10.
Thus returning 2500 to 3,000, and then with the additional order that was placed before I left, it would come up--come up to the total available that they might require for the next year.
All right. And `89 was the first year. So in `89, how many did you order from the standpoint of pairs?
It was less in `89 than it was in `90. It was probably totally available, about 7500 pair.
All right. So that we're clear then, so in 1989, which was the first year of this so-called Aris light, there was something like 75--was that the first year?
Okay. What was the first year of these Aris light gloves with the Brosser stitching were sold in the United States to Bloomingdales?
All right. So then starting in 1982, `83, `84, `85 `86, `87, `88, `89 up to 1990, you had been making these gloves exclusively for Bloomingdales; is that correct?
And as I understand it, would I be correct in assuming that the number generally went up so that by 1989 or `90, you were in the range of 10,000 pairs of these gloves, the Aris light; is that right?
Well, actually what occurred was, there was a tremendous warming trend, and in 1990, the business went, you know, substantially backwards, and I think it has actually slowed up since then. The peak sale of this product was the winter of `89. But based upon that, that's how the 10,000 pair came up to be because after the success of `89, they bought more for 1990.
Sure. I understand that. So--but basically what we're talking about is the purchase of these gloves for up to 10,000 pairs of these Aris light gloves over a 10-year period basically, 1982 to 1992, right?
All right. And when you say "Small," what did you start out with, an estimate of what you started out with in `82?
Excuse me, counsel. Mr. Rubin, you're going to have to let Mr. Cochran finish asking you the question before you start to answer. Mr. Cochran, you need to finish letting him answer before you start your next question.
Now, with regard to Bloomingdales, can you tell us, in December of 1990 or thereabouts, how many Bloomingdale stores were there in the United States?
All right. So at that time, the time you left, you were furnishing 13 Bloomingdales stores of these Aris light gloves; is that right?
And would--the amounts we're talking about, ranging from 1200 pairs to 10,000 pairs, would that be for all of the stores?
All right. That would be for the Bloomingdale stores in the United States, all 13; is that right?
And those that weren't sold in the 13 stores would then be returned or recycled and kind of blended in with the ordering for the very next year; is that right?
At the beginning of the cycle in `82, `83, they may have been as low as 16, 16.50. But the cost of this particular leather and especially the fluctuation of cashmere drove the price up on a consistent basis, especially toward the end of the `80's.
So by the end of the `80's, your recollection was that they were wholesaling for like $20.50?
And the figure that you gave Mr. Darden of something like $20 per pair for men's gloves, these gloves were much higher than that, right?
With regard to the gloves that you were shown and that you saw, we all saw during the break, there is no style number on those gloves that's visible; is that correct?
During the manufacturing cycle, there are three sets of numbers behind the lining on the back of the gloves during the actual manufacturing process. I don't know if those numbers still exist today in these gloves because of the age of the gloves. But originally, there were three sets of numbers inside, one being a size, two being a 3-digit number which indicated the individual who actually cut the gloves, and then another 2-digit number indicating the sequence in which they were made from the leather that was given to the cutter at a given point in time. But I don't know if those numbers exist in there right now.
All right. You've never seen--you haven't seen those numbers with regards to the gloves before you, have you?
And at no place has there ever been a lot number or style number like 70263 therein; is that correct? That was not part of the procedure, was it?
All right. Now, as I understand it, there are Aris Isotoner gloves all over the United States; is that correct?
All right. Are the--Bloomingdales is a store exclusive to the United States or are there--
I believe their retail operations are. They may have some mail order internationally. I'm not a hundred percent sure.
So back from the 10-year period, `82 to `92, would it have been possible through Bloomingdales mail order catalog to order these particular gloves during that time frame?
At some points in time, this particular product was in various Bloomingdales catalogs.
Now, do you have any kind of a breakdown of the difference in colors? Let's assume that in 1990, you ordered 10,000 pairs of these Aris light gloves. Do you know how many different colors did you have at that time?
And do you know the breakdown of the 10,000, how that was--how they were ordered?
60 percent plus would be black, approximately 30 percent or 28 percent would be brown and then the other colors would really be just 10 percent or so.
And would that remain fairly consistent over the 10-year period that you were involved with the company and at the time that these gloves were the same style?
No. Actually the mix of black to brown gravitated dramatically, more toward black as we went farther into the `80's.
Now, with regard to the gloves that you were shown by Mr. Darden a short time ago, in looking at those gloves, they appear similar to you; do they not?
But you can't say they're the exact same gloves that were sold at the same time, can you?
When I was looking at--when we looked at the gloves earlier--was the grain of the leather, the way these gloves were manufactured, just looking at them in this condition, they appear to be a pair that was cut out of approximately half of a skin, and that's what I was looking at. They appear to be a pair.
All right. But in looking at them, you can't tell us for sure they're from the same particular lot, can you? You can't say they're the same, can you?
All right. There's no individual characteristics that would allow you to make that particular, even though you can say they look similar; is that right?
All right. I appreciate that. And to you, they appear in your color scheme--or what color is that glove? And do you have the left glove or the right glove?
All right. And there's no way to look at that particular glove before you now and you can't tell us I presume whether that particular glove was purchased in 1982, `83, `84 all the way up to `92, can you?
All right. So in other words, what you can tell us is that that particular glove you believe is the style that was exclusive to Bloomingdales was or could have been purchased at any time between the time frame 1982 to 1992 when they changed the stitching, right?
And starting in 1982, were these gloves made starting then in the Aris Philippines factory?
And would it be correct then, assuming that for the 10-year period we've been talking about, from `82 to about `92, that all of the gloves, whatever numbers, from 1200 pairs to 10,000 pairs, would have all been made in the factory in the Philippines?
But no reason to believe they went to some other factory after you left, is there?
I'm not aware of any other factory that could make this product. But I wasn't there, so I can only commit up to 1990.
All right. But you can commit from `82 until 1990, the time you left, that all those gloves were made at the Aris Philippine factory; is that correct?
And the other styles that they made, there were other styles made for other parts of the world as I understand it; is that correct?
Did you ever talk to a customer by the name of Hering , H-E-R-I-N-G? Did you ever talk to him personally?
It was really the sales agent in England that--the style was developed for a sales agent, and then the sales agent I believe showed it to the customer and eventually ended up getting an order for that particular style number.
They do look similar. That's all I can say.
I cannot determine the exact date of purchase.
That particular glove you believe is the style that was exclusive to Bloomingdales was or could have been purchased at any time between the time frame 1982 to 1992 when they changed the stitching, right?
This particular glove was a popular style within Bloomingdales only as an exclusive style. But in the scheme of things, it was very small.