📄 Direct examination of Professor Herbert MacDonell (part 2) — Monday, July 31, 1995
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▲ Day 125 of 167

Direct examination of Professor Herbert MacDonell (part 2)

Witness: Prof. Herbert MacDonell
Examiner: Peter Neufeld
Called by: Defense • Date: Monday, July 31, 1995 • Utterances: 156
Defense attorney Peter Neufeld continued his direct examination of blood spatter expert Professor Herbert MacDonell, focusing on the drying time of the bloodstain found on OJ Simpson's sock (exhibit 13-a/42-a). MacDonell testified that the stain was caused by compression (dabbing) rather than spattering, and attempted to establish that the blood would have dried faster on a living body than in open air — an argument supporting the defense theory that the blood was planted after the fact. The session was heavily contested, with the prosecution successfully blocking much of MacDonell's testimony on body heat and drying conditions on foundation and relevance grounds.
1 THE COURT:

Thank you, counsel. Proceed.

2 MR. NEUFELD:

Thank you.

3 MR. NEUFELD:

Professor MacDonell, would you please tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury how is it that you are familiar with the drying times of bloodstains under various conditions?

4 PROF. MACDONELL:

The institutes that I began directing in 1973, of which there have now been 43, have an experiment where we do drying times of blood in fabric, on wood, glass, various surfaces. This is done in small volumes and in large volumes and also with many fabrics. This is a routine experiment that has been done for many years. The amount of time required is such that for the larger pools of blood, we can't do that in a single day, so that was deleted from the fourth publication. We still do, in experiments 12 and 13, some of the blood that is spread out to see how rapidly it will dry, put on clothing, particularly fabrics that are difficult, like arnel and nylon combinations that appear to be stained on one side, in fact they were stained on the other, so we are aware that there are very dangerous areas in looking at a sample of material and drying to identify which side was stained, without doing the actual experiment, see we do this routinely. I have done it on I don't know how many cases. I would say perhaps a hundred, 200, 300 cases where fabrics are involved we will usually test the actual fabric to determine transfer characteristics and drying time, and that is how I am familiar with it.

5 MR. NEUFELD:

And sir, based on those demonstrations and experiments that were conducted routinely in the institutes by your students that you just described, does the volume of blood on an object affect the drying time?

6 PROF. MACDONELL:

Oh, certainly.

7 MR. NEUFELD:

And how is that that if affects the drying time?

8 PROF. MACDONELL:

Well, the more blood there is, the longer it is going to take to dry, given the same surface area. A pool of blood that is contained, for example, in a bowl, is going to take much longer than the same area, but a very thin film.

9 MR. NEUFELD:

And sir, did you estimate the approximate volume of blood that originally existed on that stain on the ankle in 13-a, sock 13-a?

10 PROF. MACDONELL:

It is the same as 42-a?

11 MR. NEUFELD:

Yes.

12 PROF. MACDONELL:

Yes. I estimated the volume to be approximately one drop. It is not soaked through on the periphery. Those are the pictures we have seen, 1276 I believe or 1277, excuse me, that shows the blood on the surface, at least on the periphery. The center has been cut out and it would have been slightly heavier, so that stain could be caused on that material, I would estimate with a--just one drop, 50 microliters, perhaps slightly more or slightly less, but I would estimate one drop would be adequate.

KEY QUOTE
13 MS. CLARK:

Objection, no foundation.

14 THE COURT:

Overruled.

15 MR. NEUFELD:

Now, you said that the drying time is affected by the volume of blood. Is it also affected by the type of surface that the blood is drying on?

16 PROF. MACDONELL:

Yes, definitely.

17 MR. NEUFELD:

For instance, does it make a difference whether it is drying on fabric as opposed to a glass table?

18 PROF. MACDONELL:

Yes. The--the fabric would act as a wick, so to speak, up to a certain point, and would allow the blood to dry more rapidly, but if it is a thick fabric, it would act as a reservoir and it would contain the blood and reduce the surface area, so it would dry slower. Blood spreads out on a surface, just a table top or anything, if it is a thin film will dry very rapidly. If it is a small spatter, a small two-millimeter to one-millimeter diameter spot, it will dry very quickly. Within a matter of a minute you can just wipe across it and it will be dry. It depends a great deal on the surface.

19 MR. NEUFELD:

Sir, even within the--that subcategory of surfaces which we will call textiles or fabrics, will there be variation in the drying time between different types of fabrics?

20 PROF. MACDONELL:

Yes. We conducted experiments of that type to present a paper to the American Academy of Forensic Science some years ago dealing with the effect of enzymes in detergents. Several years ago there was tide x and all of these little bugs chewing up the stains.

21 MS. CLARK:

Objection, your Honor.

22 THE COURT:

Sustained.

23 MR. NEUFELD:

What I'm asking, sir, is not so much the chemicals that the item might have been treated with, but is there difference in drying times, for instance, between synthetics and natural fibers?

24 PROF. MACDONELL:

Yes. We used those in that paper.

25 MR. NEUFELD:

And all things being equal, given the other factors, what is the difference in drying between, let's say, a synthetic, which the sock is in this case, and cotton?

26 PROF. MACDONELL:

If you have a synthetic fiber, it is non-porous. It does not itself soak in a fluid. Notwithstanding, the fluid will soak in by capillary action or just a wetting between the individual fibers, but a natural fiber, such as cotton, ramey, hemp, jute, some of these thing are porous. Wool, for example, is porous. Animal fibers are porous, but not to the extent of the natural fibers, so therein you have soaking, not into the weave, but also into the individual fibers, and again that--that retards the evaporation or the drying time, above and beyond synthetics where the blood is exposed, although in between some of the fibers which do not absorb blood.

27 MR. NEUFELD:

If I was to try and distill that at least for myself, professor, would that mean that all other things being equal that blood will dry more rapidly on a synthetic fiber than on a cotton fiber?

28 PROF. MACDONELL:

Well, of the same type of weave and thickness, yes.

29 MR. NEUFELD:

And sir, is there a difference in drying time for blood if it is dabbed or smeared on a surface versus blood that has simply fallen onto a surface or dripped onto a surface?

30 PROF. MACDONELL:

Well, if the dripping blood actually penetrates the fiber and goes down into the fiber, it wets it, in other words, that will dry much more slowly than if you just have it on the surface where there is--air can actually get underneath it through the fiber.

31 MR. NEUFELD:

I believe you testified, sir, that in your opinion in this case the bloodstain found on ankle 13 is a result of a dabbing of the surface, as opposed to blood simply dripping or spattering onto the surface?

32 MS. CLARK:

Objection, misstates the testimony.

33 THE COURT:

Sustained. Rephrase the question.

34 MR. NEUFELD:

Okay.

35 MR. NEUFELD:

Is it your testimony, sir, in this case, based on your observations of the ankle stain, that the blood did not spatter onto the ankle area of sock 13-a?

36 PROF. MACDONELL:

Yes, it is.

37 MR. NEUFELD:

Is it your testimony, sir, that the blood got there by being--by being the result of some kind of compression, some object brought to bear on the sock, and that object had blood on it?

38 PROF. MACDONELL:

Yes, it is.

39 MS. CLARK:

Objection, that is leading.

40 THE COURT:

Overruled.

41 MR. NEUFELD:

Now, sir, in addition to those factors which you have already described, is there a difference between the time needed to air dry a bloodstain versus when the stain is on material that is actually in contact with a living body, such as a sock pressed up against an ankle?

42 PROF. MACDONELL:

Yes.

43 MR. NEUFELD:

And could you explain to the jury what the difference is in drying time?

44 MS. CLARK:

Objection. No foundation, your Honor.

45 THE COURT:

Sustained.

46 MR. NEUFELD:

Could you explain to the jury what affect it has on drying time for the item of clothing which has the blood to be in contact with the living human body, as opposed to when it is air dried?

47 MS. CLARK:

Objection, no foundation.

48 THE COURT:

Sustained.

49 MR. NEUFELD:

Sir, have you compared in the past, prior to your involvement in this case, the different times in which an identical bloodstain will dry if it is air dried as opposed to being in contact with a human body--with material that is in contact with a human body?

50 MS. CLARK:

Objection. That is irrelevant as phrased.

51 THE COURT:

Overruled.

52 MS. CLARK:

Vague, "In contact."

53 THE COURT:

Overruled.

54 PROF. MACDONELL:

Yes. Over the course of many years I have conducted experiments where fabric was actually placed on a person's arm or leg and blood was impregnated into that material. The drying time and the soaking through characteristics were the object of doing that experiment. I can cite at least one case where we did that using identical twins so the blood groups would be identical.

55 MR. NEUFELD:

And sir--

56 MS. CLARK:

Objection, irrelevant. Motion to strike.

57 THE COURT:

Overruled.

58 MR. NEUFELD:

--based on your expertise, does blood dry faster or slower when it is on material that is in contact with a person's skin when the person is living, as opposed to when it is simply air drying and not in contact?

59 MS. CLARK:

Objection, insufficient foundation.

60 THE COURT:

Sustained. Clothing is not all uniformly worn on a body, counsel.

61 MR. NEUFELD:

Your Honor, may we have a side bar?

62 THE COURT:

That is as direct as I can give you, counsel.

63 MR. NEUFELD:

All things being--based on your experiments--I'm sorry. Based on your studies and experiments, even prior to your involvement in this case, all other variables being equal, is there a difference between the drying time of blood on a fabric that is simply in the air drying as opposed to blood on a fabric which is in contact with a living body?

64 MS. CLARK:

Objection, no foundation.

65 THE COURT:

Sustained.

66 MR. NEUFELD:

Have you done experiments to answer that particular question, prior to your involvement in this case?

67 MS. CLARK:

Asked and answered.

68 THE COURT:

Overruled.

69 PROF. MACDONELL:

Yes, I have.

70 MR. NEUFELD:

Could you please describe what experiments you've done of that nature where you would actually compare the drying time where all the other variables are identical except for the one variable being the fabric is against the skin of a living person, as opposed to the fabric not being against the skin of a living person?

71 MS. CLARK:

Objection, irrelevant.

72 THE COURT:

Overruled.

73 PROF. MACDONELL:

Yes. We have done experiments, as I stated, to determine both the drying time on a person and drying time of that fabric in air, and because living people are warmer than the environment, with the exception of some of the weather lately, you will have blood drying on the garment much more rapidly.

KEY QUOTE
74 MS. CLARK:

Objection, no foundation.

75 THE COURT:

Overruled. I mean sustained. The answer is stricken. The jury is to completely disregard that last answer. Proceed.

76 MR. NEUFELD:

Professor MacDonell--well--

77 THE COURT:

Professor, have you done any of these drying experiments on socks prior to this case in synthetic socks?

KEY QUOTE
78 PROF. MACDONELL:

Not on a garment in a sock configuration, no.

79 THE COURT:

Thank you.

80 MR. NEUFELD:

Have you done it on synthetics that are very shear and light like the socks?

81 PROF. MACDONELL:

Yes.

82 MR. NEUFELD:

And have those experiments done on shear synthetics that are light and shear like the socks been done where one part of the fabric is in contact with the body picking up the body heat and the other fabric is simply air drying?

83 PROF. MACDONELL:

Yes.

84 MR. NEUFELD:

And based upon those experiments, sir, what is your expert opinion as to which will dry faster?

85 MS. CLARK:

Objection, no foundation.

86 THE COURT:

Sustained.

87 MR. NEUFELD:

All right. Professor MacDonell, I--

88 (Discussion held off the record between Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)
89 MR. NEUFELD:

Your Honor, the Prosecution has entered into a stipulation with regard to the next exhibit which shall be--

90 THE COURT:

1281.

91 MR. NEUFELD:

1281.

92 (Deft's 1280 for id = document)
93 MR. NEUFELD:

--which is the official records of the U.S. weather service, national weather service at Los Angeles airport for June 12th and June 13th.

94 THE COURT:

Thank you.

95 MR. NEUFELD:

Do you have a copy of these, sir?

96 PROF. MACDONELL:

Yes, I do.

97 (Brief pause.)
98 (Discussion held off the record between Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)
99 THE COURT:

All right. Counsel. The number should be correctly 1280.

100 MR. NEUFELD:

1280?

101 THE COURT:

1280.

102 MR. NEUFELD:

Have you had a chance to examine the national weather service statistics for Los Angeles airport for the evening of June 12th and the morning of June 13th, 1994?

103 PROF. MACDONELL:

Yes, I have.

104 MR. NEUFELD:

Okay. And first of all, can you tell us, sir, what was the temperature range between approximately ten o'clock in the evening on June 12th, 1994, and 9:30 the morning of June 13th, the approximate--June 13th?

105 MS. CLARK:

Well, objection. The report speaks for itself.

106 THE COURT:

Overruled.

107 PROF. MACDONELL:

The temperature range was between 63 degrees Fahrenheit and 66 degrees Fahrenheit, according to the document I have.

108 MR. NEUFELD:

And during that same period of time, sir, when you said the temperature range was between 63 and 66 degrees, does it also state what the dew point was?

109 PROF. MACDONELL:

Yes, it does.

110 MR. NEUFELD:

And during that same period of time, sir, is there any indication from the official national weather service printout here that there was any dew on the ground on the night of June 12th into the early morning hours of June 13th?

111 PROF. MACDONELL:

Well, it indicates that the temperature--the dew point range was below the temperature range all the times, so there would have been no dew formation.

112 MR. NEUFELD:

And how much below?

113 MS. CLARK:

Objection, objection to that. No foundation, your Honor.

114 THE COURT:

Sustained. The answer is stricken.

115 MR. NEUFELD:

Could you please say, sir, what was the closest the dew point ever got to the temperature during that twelve-hour period?

116 THE COURT:

I'm sorry, counsel.

117 MS. CLARK:

Objection, your Honor.

118 THE COURT:

Wait, wait, wait, wait. You are having this witness testify to atmospheric conditions during the course of the--

119 MR. NEUFELD:

No. All I'm having this witness do, your Honor--

120 THE COURT:

This is beyond what he is qualified to testify to at this point, so the objection is sustained.

121 MR. NEUFELD:

Your Honor, I believe that once the Court takes judicial notice--

122 THE COURT:

The objection is sustained, counsel.

123 MR. NEUFELD:

May we have a side bar, your Honor?

124 THE COURT:

No, you may not. Proceed.

125 MR. NEUFELD:

All right.

126 MR. NEUFELD:

You said that the temperature between those hours of approximately ten o'clock on the evening of the 12th and 9:00, 9:30 the next day, were between 63 and 66 degrees; is that correct?

127 PROF. MACDONELL:

That is correct.

128 MR. NEUFELD:

What is body temperature, surface body temperature, sir?

129 PROF. MACDONELL:

It is slightly--

130 MS. CLARK:

Objection, no foundation.

131 THE COURT:

Sustained. Surface body temperature?

132 MR. NEUFELD:

Of a human being.

133 THE COURT:

Sustained.

134 MR. NEUFELD:

Are you familiar, through your studies, sir, on what the surface body temperature of a person is?

135 PROF. MACDONELL:

Only that it is below the temperature of blood.

136 MS. CLARK:

Objection, your Honor. Objection, no foundation.

137 THE COURT:

Overruled.

138 MR. NEUFELD:

I'm sorry, could you please answer the question?

139 PROF. MACDONELL:

It is below the temperature of blood which is 100 degrees. Body temperature is 98.6. I think the surface temperature is several degrees below that, depending upon the environment. If it is a very cold day, your skin will be cooler than on a hot day. I think that is common sense.

140 MR. NEUFELD:

To your knowledge, sir, and based on your experience, will the body temperature of a living personal be greater than 63 degrees Fahrenheit?

141 PROF. MACDONELL:

It is unless freezing.

KEY QUOTE
142 MS. CLARK:

Objection, no foundation.

143 THE COURT:

Sustained. Excuse me, professor. If there is an objection being made, don't answer.

144 PROF. MACDONELL:

I'm sorry.

145 THE COURT:

Proceed.

146 MR. NEUFELD:

By the way, while you have those certified records in front of you, sir, are you aware of the fact that when Dr. Lakshmanan of the medical examiner's office testified he said that on June 13th at about 1:46 P.M. the temperature was 64 degrees, page 32052 of the transcript, was Dr. Lakshmanan correct or incorrect when he gave that testimony?

147 MS. CLARK:

Well, objection, your Honor. That is irrelevant and it is also not--

148 THE COURT:

Sustained. Dr. Lakshmanan was not at the crime scene, counsel.

149 MR. NEUFELD:

Dr. Lakshmanan, as to what the actual temperature was.

150 THE COURT:

He wasn't there, counsel.

151 MR. NEUFELD:

Your Honor, may we at this point recess for lunch?

152 THE COURT:

Certainly.

153 MR. NEUFELD:

And may we also have a side bar?

154 THE COURT:

Yes.

155 MR. NEUFELD:

Thank you.

156 THE COURT:

Ladies and gentlemen, we are going to take our recess for the lunch hour. Please remember all my admonitions to you. Don't discuss the case among yourselves, don't form any opinions about the case, don't conduct any deliberations--don't conduct any deliberations until the matter has been submitted to you, do not allow anybody to communicate with you with regard to the case. Stay healthy. See you at one o'clock.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (4)

Prof. Herbert MacDonell
I estimated the volume to be approximately one drop. It is not soaked through on the periphery... that stain could be caused on that material, I would estimate with a--just one drop, 50 microliters, perhaps slightly more or slightly less, but I would estimate one drop would be adequate.
Establishes the tiny volume of the sock bloodstain, supporting the defense theory that it was planted rather than worn during a violent crime.
Prof. Herbert MacDonell
Yes. We have done experiments, as I stated, to determine both the drying time on a person and drying time of that fabric in air, and because living people are warmer than the environment, with the exception of some of the weather lately, you will have blood drying on the garment much more rapidly.
Key opinion that blood dries faster on a living body — but immediately struck by Judge Ito for lack of foundation, illustrating how the prosecution successfully neutralized this line of testimony.
Lance A. Ito
Professor, have you done any of these drying experiments on socks prior to this case in synthetic socks?
Judge Ito directly questioned the witness to probe the foundation gap, and MacDonell admitted he had not tested socks specifically — undercutting the defense's attempt to establish his expertise in this precise context.
Prof. Herbert MacDonell
It is unless freezing.
MacDonell's wry, confident answer to whether a living person's body temperature exceeds 63°F — cut off by a sustained objection before it could land with the jury.

Evidence (3)

Defense 1280
Official records of the U.S. National Weather Service at Los Angeles Airport for June 12-13, 1994, showing temperature range of 63-66°F and dew point data
introduced and discussed by MacDonell
People's 42-a / Defense 13-a
OJ Simpson's sock with bloodstain on the ankle area
discussed — MacDonell estimated approximately one drop (50 microliters) of blood caused the stain
Informal
Photographs 1276/1277 showing blood on sock surface at periphery
referenced to support volume and compression analysis

Notable Exchanges (3)

Peter NeufeldMarcia ClarkLance A. Ito
Neufeld made repeated attempts across at least six question variations to get MacDonell to testify that blood dries faster on a living body than in air. Clark objected consistently on foundation grounds; Ito sustained most but overruled some, then personally intervened to ask MacDonell whether he had tested socks specifically — eliciting a 'no' that undercut the foundation.
strategic
Peter NeufeldLance A. Ito
Neufeld tried twice to request a sidebar — once after Ito sustained the atmospheric conditions objection, and once before lunch recess. Ito denied the first request bluntly: 'No, you may not. Proceed.'
tense
Prof. Herbert MacDonellMarcia ClarkLance A. Ito
MacDonell answered a question about body heat and drying time — giving the defense's key opinion — only to have Ito immediately strike the answer and instruct the jury to 'completely disregard that last answer.'
devastating

Light Moments (2)

Prof. Herbert MacDonell
MacDonell quipped that living people are warmer than the environment 'with the exception of some of the weather lately' — a dry aside about summer heat before his answer was struck.
Prof. Herbert MacDonell
When asked whether a living person's body temperature exceeds 63°F, MacDonell deadpanned 'It is unless freezing' before Clark's objection cut him off.

Credibility Attacks (1)

⚔ Dr. Lakshmanan
prior inconsistent statement / factual impeachment
Neufeld attempted to use the certified weather service records to show that Dr. Lakshmanan's trial testimony about the June 13th temperature (64°F at 1:46 PM) was incorrect, but Ito sustained the objection as irrelevant and noted Lakshmanan was not at the crime scene.

Witness Demeanor

(Discussion held off the record between Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)
(Brief pause.)
(Discussion held off the record between Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)

Objections

24 objections (13 sustained, 8 overruled)
Proceeding 7084 • 156 utterances • Defense witness
Criminal Trial
Department 103
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📂 JUL 31, 1995 📄 Direct examination of Professo
JUL 31, 1995 KRT DvH TD