All right. Proceed. All right. Miss Clark, you may conclude.

All right, sir. Now, in characterizing the stain on the outside as a swipe and then changing your testimony in court here to a compression, were you--

Objection, your Honor, to the characterization.

Sustained. Rephrase the question.

You initially characterized the stain as a swipe, is that correct, in your report?

In the report, yes.

And then you came in and you testified to say that it was a compression and not a swipe; is that correct?

No. It could be a swipe if the leading trailing edges are uniform as they appear to be in the enlarged photographs that I found that Dr. Lee had taken.

So you're saying it could be either one at this point?

One has a little more pressure than the other, doesn't it, sir?

Not necessarily, no. You have to have pressure or you won't get any transfer at all.

All right. So compression then could be from touching?

Yes. That's compression.

Could be from pressing?

Touching is pressing.

Okay. So you don't--what you're saying, sir, is that there's no particular amount of pressure applied. Any pressure will indicate compression; is that right?

There has to be sufficient pressure to transfer a liquid to the surface, and that's very minimal when you have a liquid.

In characterizing it as a compression instead of a swipe in your direct examination testimony, were you attempting to be more helpful to the Defendant?

Objection.

Sustained. Argumentative.

Well, in attempting to charac--excuse me. Not attempting. In characterizing the stain as a compression as opposed to a swipe, were you attempting to make it sound more sinister, Mr. MacDonell?

Objection, your Honor.

Overruled.

Nevertheless, you have--would you answer the question, sir? Do you think in your mind that saying it is a compression makes it sound more sinister than a swipe?

Objection. Argumentative.

Sustained. Sustained.

You saw photographs of the crime scene; have you not?

Yes, I have.

And let me ask you this, sir. If someone wearing the socks that you saw were to step near to the body of the victim Nicole Brown Simpson, near enough for the ankle bone to come in contact with her bloody hand, could that cause a compression transfer?

Certainly.

Could it also cause a swipe?

Yes.

If she were to reach a bloody hand out and touch her thumb or finger or hand to the ankle of Mr. Simpson wearing those socks, could that cause a compression or a swipe?

Objection. No foundation.

Sustained. Rephrase the question. Rephrase the question.

Oh. If Nicole Brown Simpson reached out a bloody hand to touch the ankle of the murderer wearing those socks, could that cause a compression or a swipe transfer?

Objection. No foundation.

Overruled.

Certainly it could. Anything that has blood on it can either be projected and touch the area that's stained or this area that's stained could have come in contact with it. It's simple transfer.

Well, for example, I see the way you're sitting, sir. I can't demonstrate this obviously. But if you were to--the jury--

Can the jury see?

If you were to move your knee back, sir--

My knee?

Yeah--to where your ankle bone, the bony protrusion of your ankle was on top of your knee, would that--could that produce a compression or a swipe?

If one surface was wet, yes.

Now, you noted, sir, that the stain appeared to be in the area of the ankle where there would be the bony protrusion of the ankle, correct?

It appeared to be in that general area. I don't know the socks were put on, if it would be at the outer-most portion or the apex of that circular area. But in that general area, yes. It very well could be at the extreme of the ankle bone.

And by the "Extreme," you mean the highest point, the point that protrudes the most?

Correct. On either side of the leg. There's one on each side.

Right. And by the way, sir, by looking at the sock, could you tell whether it was the right or left sock, sock a that we're talking about here?

No.

Okay. By the way--and did you happen to have a look at a photograph of the socks in the condition in which they were found on the bedroom floor?

I've seen some pictures of it, yes.

Let me--this has been marked so many times, I hate to mark it again, but--it's People's 127 already marked. I have one handy.

All right. 127.

Let me ask you, sir, if you've seen this photograph before.

Yes, I have, or one just like it.

Now, you've seen the socks in person, correct?

Yes, I have.

And do they appear to be inside out in this photograph, sir?

Would you like a magnifying glass?

I've got one, but I don't need it. I honestly can't tell. If I had the socks to compare to this, I might be able to. But I--I don't think so. It's just heavier fabric in the heal and the toe. But they certainly--the upper portion seems to be inside out, but the--to tell whether the whole sock is inside out or not that's lying down, I honestly can't tell you.

Nevertheless, they are lying flat on the--somewhat crumpled, but lying on the floor, correct?

One is. One is more or less folded over. I don't know which side is up or down. It would appear that it is the left side of the one that is spread out the most that is down, but the other one is kind of wadded up.

And so the jury knows what we're referring to, I'm going to put it on the monitor. I wanted you to see it, sir, because I don't know if your monitor is going to give you as much resolution as you get looking at it up close. Now, when you said that one appeared to be more crumpled up, you were referring to the one up on top; were you not, sir?

Yes, I was.

All right. And--now, let me ask you a question. If you have--may be just a matter of common sense, but if you have a bony protruding area on an item of clothing like around the ankle bone, you're wearing a sock, that area is sticking out, that area would be more likely to get blood assuming blood is in the area of the feet. Would that be a fair statement?

Yes, if it was transferred.

Uh-huh.

But spattering or something would be not dependent upon that, but brushing against something, yes, the bone sticks out further.

Right. So the bone area where you found that bloodstain would be the place that would be most likely to receive blood from a transfer if you're in the area of blood or a bloody body, correct?

Yes. If that transfer again is in--right on the ankle bone. I think it would make a difference whether you had it on the right or left foot though. I think there's a slight difference. But I don't know. It's in that area. I don't know that it's at the peak of the bone as I say. Of course, the sock is elastic. So you could adjust it so it was or was not.

But it was in that general area, you would agree, sir?

Yes, I would.

So if that sock was worn to--in the commission of a murder and the feet were in the area of a bloody victim, an area that would swipe the bloody victim, then the area where you found the stain is the area most likely to receive that swipe or compression, correct?

Objection. Compound.

Overruled.

I would say yes.

Now, let me ask you a couple other questions, sir. As a matter of practicality, if someone is sweating and they are wearing socks of this kind of nylon nature, as a practical matter, is it not more difficult to take socks off of a sweaty foot?

Objection, your Honor. No foundation.

Sustained.

Have you ever taken off--have you ever had--

Objection.

Well, I don't know.

Mr. MacDonell, have you ever had the experience of wearing nylon socks and exerting yourself to the point where you were sweating?

I used to wear work socks in the oil fields where I grew up and did a lot of manual labor, but I do not honestly remember ever sweating to the point where my socks got wet, and I didn't wear dress socks in the oil fields. I don't sweat when I wear dress socks. And if I can avoid it, I never wear them.

Okay. So you've never had the experience yourself, sir, of ever sweating in dress socks?

Not that I can remember, no.

Well, can I ask you, sir, if in your experience you have ever had occasion to note whether wet socks or sweaty feet made thin socks like this more difficult to remove? Do you have any experience in that?

Objection. No foundation.

She is asking for the foundation at this point. Do you wear these kind of socks?

No.

I'm sorry. All right. If someone has bloody hands, sir, and they attempt to take a sock off by maybe inserting the thumb, the thumbs inside and the fingers on the outside, if one or more of the fingers are bloody and pressing into the sock, will that cause a compression?

Objection. Speculation at this point.

Overruled.

Well, certainly. If you have bloody hands and touch any fabric, you can transfer blood to it.

Okay. And if you were to touch--if there were wet blood on a piece of fabric that you pressed, that would cause a compression as well, correct?

If the blood was already on the fabric?

Right, and it was wet.

You would squash the blood out of the fabric a little laterally, yes. It wouldn't cause a transfer unless it was in contact with something else. If you're transferring it to the thumb, yeah, you could transfer it from the fabric to the thumb, if that's what you mean.

What I'm saying though, sir, is that if there's wet blood on a surface and you press it, will you cause a compression?

If you press it, you cause a compression, yes.

And if wet blood is on a surface and you brush it, will that cause it to appear as a swipe?

Yes, it will. At that point, we would call a swipe pattern produced by a wiping action.

And can you tell the difference, sir, between whether or not a blood drop has been dripped and swiped later? You know what I mean? Let me make that more clear. Can you tell the difference between whether or not a drop of blood is dripped onto a surface and while still wet, swiped between blood that is initially swiped on?

If there's enough blood to remain on the surface, it doesn't quickly soak right into the fiber of the fabric, you could laterally transfer it and cause a swipe pattern, yes.

In which case, what you would detect would be a swipe pattern as opposed to a drip and a swipe?

I thought I was just answering the drip and swipe. You dripped it--first of all, you're talking about just a drop of blood on a fabric?

Uh-huh.

If it falls on the fabric and you very quickly create a lateral motion, you should get a swiping of that blood which will leave blood on the top of the fibers, yes.

And then when you come to analyze it, you would see a swipe and not a drip and a swipe? That was my question.

Yes. That's correct. You couldn't tell the difference if it was done quickly. That's correct.

And the same would be true I take it for a compression; is that right?

Yes. If the blood is still fluid enough, you can get a lateral motion and it would look like a swipe.

And likewise, sir, if it was with respect to a stain that you call a compression, if the blood was still fluid and then compressed with the hand or a finger, you would--then it would look like a compression to you; would it not?

Well, you just said if it was a compression. So it would look like a compression, yes.

As opposed to a drip and then a subsequent compression?

I think that would be a very difficult thing to differentiate with any degree of accuracy.

Okay. Now, you--all right. The--those little balls on surface 3, you do not know--those were not typed to determine whether they were blood, correct?

As far as I know, they never have been.

And you don't know obviously then--

Objection, your Honor. Ask for a sidebar.

Assuming they are blood, sir, you don't know whose blood they are; is that correct?

That is correct.

Now, you indicated that you saw--you determined--without ever having seen the actual piece of fabric cut out of the center of the stain, you gave us an estimate that the entire stain would have been 50 to 60 microliters of blood, assuming it was blood.

That's correct.

Okay. And that what you saw on the opposite side in terms of the little flakes and the little balls, you never attempted to quantify; is that right?

Other than to say there was an extremely small volume, no.

Objection. Asked three times.

All right. So let me ask you a few questions about your background.

Do we have to quit exactly at 4:00?

Yes, we do. We have a doctor's appointment that we have to keep.

Oh, that's right. That's right. That's right. All right. Would you like to break now, your Honor? I have one very short area I intend to complete tomorrow. I won't be able to complete it before 4:00 o'clock.

Why don't you finish what you can.

Okay.

All right, sir. You stated that you were a professor of chemistry at Milton College in Wisconsin for a period of time?

Yes, I was.

Yeah. Is that college now closed, sir?

Yes, it is.

When it was opened, it was a small liberal arts college; is that right?

That's correct.

About what? 350, 500 students?

Well, I don't think they ever had 500 while I was there. More like 250 to 300 I would think.

Now, let me ask you, at the time that you became a professor, you had an undergraduate degree, correct?

That's correct.

And you became the head of the department of chemistry at Milton College; is that right?

That's correct.

Now, when you were head of the department, sir, the entire chemistry department consisted of who?

Okay. Did you give yourself assignments?

I gave a lot of assignments.

I mean as head of the department. That was a joke. All right. You taught criminalistics at El Myra College in New York?

Yes, I did.

And you left there in 1983; is that right?

That's correct.

Okay. You were you said adjunct. But that's a part-time professor; is that right?

Part-time, rank of full professor. I believe they had adjunct, associate adjunct, assistant. It varies from one school to another.

Okay. So what--were you teaching at night, sir?

Yes, I was.

Was that a continuing education course you were teaching?

Continuing education courses. I taught quite a few.

Okay. Was that two to three days a week?

It depended. It was usually two nights a week and--yeah. It was two nights a week every semester in the summer.

You taught one time at Corning College; is that right?

For quite some time. Corning Community College.

Okay. Yeah. That's a two-year college; is that right, sir?

Yes.

Though they don't give any degrees other than AA?

I'm not sure about that. I think they have, since I left, negotiated some form of getting a four-year degree or a masters program through John J. College in New York. I'm not sure about that. But basically it's a two-year school, part of the State University of New York.

Okay. And, again, there you were teaching part-time?

Yes.

And was it night school again, continuing education program?

It was days in the beginning in 1960 and then it went through different transitions and ultimately ended up in the evening program, yes.

Okay. And was that, again, two to three nights a week?

It varied depending on the semester. But two nights a week was the most I could do.

Now, with respect to either El Myra College or Corning, sir, would you say that either one of them had a formal forensic science program?

They did at the time. They had a criminal justice program at both places. Department of criminal justice I think is what they called it. They also had a forensic science certificate.

Okay. But when I say a formal forensic science program, sir, I'm talking about something akin to formal program for the giving of a degree in criminalistics or forensic science.

They gave a degree with a major in criminal justice. I don't remember the exact title of it. That's what it was.

But the criminal justice program is like the administration of justice, isn't it?

Well, that's part of it I guess, yes.

It is not primarily a science program, is it?

No, but it satisfies certain science requirements or at least it did.

It's primarily a course work--a study of course work that deals with the criminal justice system; isn't that right?

In general. But my work was primarily in the forensic area of physical evidence and crime scene investigation and microscopy and so on.

Here, sir?

Yep. Ladies and gentlemen, we are going to take our recess for the afternoon session. Please remember all of my admonitions to you; don't discuss the case amongst yourselves, form any opinions about the case, don't conduct any deliberations until the matter has been submitted to you, don't allow anybody to communicate with you with regard to the case. Take care of yourselves. Stay well. If there's anything we can do in that respect to help you out, let us know. All right. Get plenty of exercise, fresh air, see the doctor when you need to see the doctor. All right. As far as the jury is concerned, we'll stand in recess until 9:00 o'clock. After we clear the courtroom, we'll get Mr. Bosco's status report. And, professor, we'll see you tomorrow morning, 9:00 o'clock.