Redirect examination of Robert Heidstra (part 2)

📄 Redirect examination of Robert Heidstra (part 2) — Wednesday, July 12, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\JUL\12\REDIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-ROBERT.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 113 of 167

◀ Sidebar: witness bias evidence Redirect examination of Robert Heidstra (part 3) ▶

Witness: Robert Heidstra
Examiner: Johnnie Cochran
Called by: Defense • Date: Wednesday, July 12, 1995 • Utterances: 196

Cochran conducts redirect of Robert Heidstra, first attempting (unsuccessfully, due to sustained hearsay objections) to suggest Patricia Baret had financial motives to testify, then methodically walking Heidstra through his June 21, 1994 statement to Detective Payne. Cochran uses the statement to establish that Heidstra never told police the voices he heard differed in age or depth — undermining testimony apparently elicited on cross — and gets Heidstra to call it 'absurd' to determine someone's race from their voice alone.

# 1 (The following proceedings were held in open court:)

# 2 MR. COCHRAN:

May I proceed, your Honor?

# 3 THE COURT:

Yes.

# 4 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, with regard to Patricia Baret, are you aware of whether or not she has, since June 12th, 1994, appeared on some television programs?

# 5 MR. HEIDSTRA:

She told me that she would be on one of them.

# 6 MR. DARDEN:

Objection, hearsay, your Honor.

# 7 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 8 MR. COCHRAN:

You had a conversation with her?

# 9 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 10 MR. COCHRAN:

You can answer that yes or no. About appearing on television shows?

# 11 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes, yes, yes.

# 12 MR. COCHRAN:

And have you had occasion to discuss with her her desire to be on television shows?

# 13 MR. DARDEN:

Objection. Calls for hearsay, your Honor.

# 14 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 15 MR. COCHRAN:

Well, let me ask you this: Did she ever tell you whether or not she was going to seek some money?

# 16 MR. DARDEN:

Objection, your Honor.

# 17 THE COURT:

Sustained. Hearsay.

# 18 MR. COCHRAN:

Thank you, your Honor.

# 19 MR. COCHRAN:

Do you know whether or not Patricia Baret has appeared on either Hard Copy--

# 20 MR. DARDEN:

Objection, leading.

# 21 MR. COCHRAN:

Asking the question.

# 22 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 23 MR. COCHRAN:

Thank you.

# 24 MR. COCHRAN:

Do you know Patricia Baret has appeared on either Hard Copy or Current Affair since the time of these murders on June 12th, 1994?

# 25 MR. HEIDSTRA:

She told me she would.

# 26 MR. DARDEN:

Objection, hearsay, your Honor.

# 27 THE COURT:

The answer is stricken. The jury is to disregard. Do you have personal knowledge? Did you see the program or anything like that?

# 28 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I never saw the program.

# 29 MR. COCHRAN:

You never saw the program?

# 30 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No.

# 31 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. When did you talk to her about appearing on television? Just tell us the approximate time.

# 32 MR. DARDEN:

Objection. This is hearsay, your Honor.

# 33 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 34 MR. HEIDSTRA:

What time you mean?

# 35 MR. COCHRAN:

When was it approximately when you talked about appearing on television?

# 36 MR. DARDEN:

Assumes a fact not in evidence, your Honor.

# 37 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 38 MR. HEIDSTRA:

That is a while ago.

# 39 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Do you have an idea when it was?

# 40 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No. A few months ago, sir.

# 41 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Now, with regard to Miss Baret, you had indicated on direct examination, I believe yesterday, that you had told, I guess it was her employer, that you had been in and around the Bundy location on June 12th in the evening hours; is that correct?

# 42 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Exactly, yes.

# 43 MR. COCHRAN:

And then what was that person's name?

# 44 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Dr. Paul.

# 45 MR. COCHRAN:

Dr. Paul?

# 46 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Paul, yeah.

# 47 MR. COCHRAN:

And then Miss Baret works for Dr. Paul?

# 48 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 49 MR. COCHRAN:

And do you work for Dr. Paul also?

# 50 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes. Every other week I do his car.

# 51 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Then you became aware that Miss Baret was supposedly a friend of Mr. Goldman's; is that right?

# 52 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 53 MR. COCHRAN:

And then after that you were put in touch with these detectives; is that correct?

# 54 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Exactly.

# 55 MR. COCHRAN:

And the detective that you first spoke to was whom?

# 56 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Mr. Payne, plus another one. I don't recall his name. A tall man with--

# 57 MR. COCHRAN:

You described that for us yesterday. And I want to ask you some questions about what you said at the time to Detective Payne. First of all, this conversation was--was it back on or about June 21st of 1994?

# 58 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 59 MR. COCHRAN:

And do you recall where the interview took place?

# 60 MR. HEIDSTRA:

In the sub-garage of my apartment.

# 61 MR. COCHRAN:

That was the one that was down in the sub-garage; is that correct?

# 62 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, right.

# 63 MR. COCHRAN:

And when you talked to Detective Payne you tried to be as accurate as you possibly could; is that correct?

# 64 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Sure, sure.

# 65 MR. COCHRAN:

And this statement that you gave him was within nine days of June 12th, 1994; is that correct?

# 66 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, something like that.

# 67 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And at that time you talked as clearly as you could to him; is that correct?

# 68 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Exactly, yes.

# 69 MR. COCHRAN:

Okay. Your Honor I would like at this point to mark--this is Defendant's next in order. This statement of Mr. Heidstra to Detective Payne.

# 70 THE COURT:

1241--1241.

# 71 MR. COCHRAN:

12--

# 72 THE COURT:

41.

# 73 MR. COCHRAN:

1241.

# 74 (Deft's 1241 for id = Heidstra statement)

# 75 MR. COCHRAN:

And I want to ask the witness to look at and I would like to place it on the elmo, if I could. May I approach?

# 76 THE COURT:

You may.

# 77 (Discussion held off the record between Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)

# 78 MR. DARDEN:

Your Honor, I have no objection. Could we get a clean copy?

# 79 THE COURT:

Clean copy.

# 80 MR. COCHRAN:

I will show him this one and we will try to get a clean copy. Maybe you have a clean copy.

# 81 MR. DARDEN:

Can we show him a clean copy?

# 82 THE COURT:

That is appropriate. Unmarked.

# 83 MR. COCHRAN:

If we have one that doesn't have the--I think all our copies have these markings and the writing.

# 84 (Discussion held off the record between Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)

# 85 THE COURT:

Mr. Darden, Miss Clark, do you have a clean copy?

# 86 MR. COCHRAN:

It is your statement 0729.

# 87 (Discussion held off the record between Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)

# 88 THE COURT:

Do you need an additional photocopy made?

# 89 MR. DARDEN:

No, I don't think so, your Honor.

# 90 THE COURT:

All right. (Brief pause.)

# 91 (Discussion held off the record between Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)

# 92 MR. COCHRAN:

I am asking him to take the address and phone number off.

# 93 (Brief pause.)

# 94 (Discussion held off the record between Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)

# 95 MR. COCHRAN:

May I approach, your Honor, with a clean copy of 1241?

# 96 THE COURT:

You may.

# 97 MR. COCHRAN:

I wanted to just show it--actually we are going to have to black it out a little better, but I will approach. Mr. Heidstra, I want you just to look with me at this two-page statement. It purports to be a statement of an interview conducted by detective--

# 98 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Payne.

# 99 MR. COCHRAN:

--Payne and Parker with you. Does this look like approximately what you said to him, that: "Mr. Heidstra stated that he walks his two dogs on a nightly basis at approximately 2200 hours or ten o'clock"?

# 100 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 101 MR. COCHRAN:

"His route of travel always consists of the same streets, although the direction he takes varies"?

# 102 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Exactly.

# 103 MR. COCHRAN:

"On the night in question, Sunday evening," they have the wrong date in here, "June 14, 1994, he left his apartment with the dogs at about 2215 hours"?

# 104 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 105 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you indicate that?

# 106 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes, sure.

# 107 MR. COCHRAN:

Your Honor, I will proceed this way rather than the elmo because the addresses are still there.

# 108 THE COURT:

All right.

# 109 MR. COCHRAN:

May I proceed?

# 110 THE COURT:

You may.

# 111 MR. COCHRAN:

Thank you.

# 112 MR. COCHRAN:

I want you to tell me if what I'm reading to you is accurate of what you told the police officers twelve days after the events of June 12th. Did you tell them at that time that you: "Walked east on Dorothy to Westgate, then north on Westgate to Gorham"?

# 113 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 114 MR. COCHRAN:

"Turned left on Gorham and walked west to Bundy Drive"?

# 115 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Exactly.

# 116 MR. COCHRAN:

That you: "Turned left on Bundy Drive and began walking south"? Did you say that?

# 117 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I was not exactly on Bundy. I reached Bundy.

# 118 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. At Gorham?

# 119 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Still Gorham.

# 120 MR. COCHRAN:

That part of the statement is wrong?

# 121 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, I would say, because I was not on Bundy yet. It come together. It is very hard to see.

# 122 MR. COCHRAN:

"He indicated that Bundy Drive has a large curve in the roadway at that location and because of that curve he was unable to see the front of the residence at 875 south Bundy Drive"; is that correct?

# 123 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right exactly.

# 124 MR. COCHRAN:

From that location at what we call yesterday the fork in the rode up here you couldn't see the front?

# 125 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, no.

# 126 MR. COCHRAN:

That is because of this curve?

# 127 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 128 MR. COCHRAN:

That is depicted here?

# 129 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 130 MR. COCHRAN:

On People's 26; is that correct?

# 131 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 132 MR. COCHRAN:

Okay. Did you go on to say to them that you: "Walked the same route everyday and you are familiar with the dogs in the various residences as well as the exterior of the various residences themselves"?

# 133 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes, I do, so many times walking.

# 134 MR. COCHRAN:

Is that accurate?

# 135 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 136 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you tell them that?

# 137 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 138 MR. COCHRAN:

"Shortly after turning south on Bundy Drive"--that part is wrong. You turned in the alley, right?

# 139 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah. I didn't go on Bundy at all.

KEY QUOTE

# 140 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. "Mr. Heidstra heard the sound of the Akita dog owned by Nicole Brown Simpson began to bark furiously"; is that correct?

# 141 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 142 MR. COCHRAN:

"The bark was non-stop and the dog appeared agitated." Is that accurate as to what you told them?

# 143 MR. HEIDSTRA:

That is accurate, yes.

# 144 MR. COCHRAN:

Okay. You went on to tell the detective that you: "Were familiar with the sound of the bark of the Akita as it barks frequently when you pass with your two dogs"?

# 145 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right, right, right.

# 146 MR. COCHRAN:

You told them that, right?

# 147 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, I told them that.

# 148 MR. COCHRAN:

"And believing that the dog might be possibly loose and a danger to him and his dogs, you then changed your route of travel and then you turned in an adjacent alley which parallels Bundy Drive and which would take him back to Dorothy Street"?

# 149 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Exactly.

# 150 MR. COCHRAN:

Is that correct, sir?

# 151 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, right.

# 152 MR. COCHRAN:

Okay. Then you describe that: "As you reached the alley you heard this male voice loudly cry `hey, hey, hey,' then the sound of a large metal gate closing," right?

# 153 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right, exactly.

# 154 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, in the statement when you talked to the police, you didn't talk or say anything at that time about the age of the person who says "Hey, hey, hey," did you?

# 155 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, no, no.

# 156 MR. COCHRAN:

Just a voice that you heard; is that correct?

# 157 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Exactly, yes.

# 158 MR. COCHRAN:

And by hearing a voice I presume you could hear and determine or discern the difference in the voice of a child and an adult, could you?

# 159 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right, yes.

# 160 MR. COCHRAN:

But would you agree that it would be difficult to determine the voice of a young adult from an old adult?

# 161 MR. DARDEN:

Objection. That is leading, your Honor.

# 162 THE COURT:

Sustained. Rephrase the question.

# 163 MR. COCHRAN:

Okay. Certainly, your Honor.

# 164 MR. COCHRAN:

Are you able to discern always the difference in ages of voices when you can't see the people?

# 165 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No. That is hard to do that.

# 166 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, let me ask--let me ask you the question of race. Are you able to hear a voice and then determine the race of the person?

# 167 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Absurd, absurd.

# 168 MR. COCHRAN:

What?

# 169 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Absurd. I never--how could I?

KEY QUOTE

# 170 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Let's continue on. So you heard this hey, hey, hey, and then you heard what you believe was a large metal gate closing; is that correct?

# 171 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, one slam.

# 172 MR. COCHRAN:

There was one slam?

# 173 MR. HEIDSTRA:

That's it.

# 174 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. You went on to tell these police officers, Payne and Parker, that the--"You heard the sounds of two men arguing"; is that right?

# 175 MR. HEIDSTRA:

That's right, yes.

# 176 MR. COCHRAN:

"But you were unable to discern what they were saying specifically"; isn't that correct?

# 177 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 178 MR. COCHRAN:

And you never told Detective Payne anything about one voice being an older man than anyone else, did you?

# 179 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, no, I never said that.

# 180 MR. COCHRAN:

You never told Detective Payne about one voice being deeper than the other voice, did you?

# 181 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, no, just two voices I heard.

KEY QUOTE

# 182 MR. COCHRAN:

Two voices. And as you told us here in court, that the dog, which you believe it was the Akita whom you couldn't see, was barking?

# 183 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 184 MR. COCHRAN:

And the little black dog adjacent to the house?

# 185 MR. DARDEN:

This is leading, your Honor.

# 186 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 187 MR. COCHRAN:

All right.

# 188 MR. COCHRAN:

Let me ask you this: Was your ability to hear in any way--the voices of these persons that you heard--in any way affected by any other circumstances?

# 189 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No.

# 190 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Did you hear--

# 191 THE COURT:

Excuse me. Mr. Cochran, do you need to be there because you are blocking the view of the witness?

# 192 MR. COCHRAN:

Thank you, your Honor.

# 193 MR. DARDEN:

Well, is he going to continue?

# 194 THE COURT:

He is going with the statement at this point.

# 195 MR. COCHRAN:

Yes.

# 196 MR. COCHRAN:

The two dogs that were barking, were they barking at the same time as you heard the voice of these two men?

Temperature

procedural

Key Quotes (4)

Robert Heidstra

Absurd, absurd. I never--how could I?

Heidstra's spontaneous reaction to whether he could determine race from a voice — directly neutralizes any suggestion from cross that he could identify a 'Black voice' or 'white voice' among the two men he heard.

Robert Heidstra

No, no, just two voices I heard.

Heidstra confirms he never described one voice as older or deeper to Detective Payne — walking back or limiting embellishments that may have emerged during cross-examination.

Robert Heidstra

I didn't go on Bundy at all.

Heidstra corrects his own prior statement to police, clarifying he was in the adjacent alley, not on Bundy Drive — a geographic precision that affects his line of sight and proximity to the crime scene.

Robert Heidstra

Yeah, one slam. That's it.

Heidstra specifies a single gate slam, consistent with a specific sequence of events Cochran is building into the defense timeline.

Evidence (2)

Defendant's 1241

Heidstra's written statement to Detectives Payne and Parker, taken approximately June 21, 1994 — nine days after the murders

Introduced and read into record by Cochran; used to lock in Heidstra's original account and highlight what he did NOT say to police about the voices

People's 26

Map or diagram depicting Bundy Drive including the curve near 875 South Bundy

Referenced to illustrate why Heidstra could not see the front of Nicole's residence from his position

Notable Exchanges (4)

Johnnie Cochran•Christopher Darden•Robert Heidstra

Cochran tries three times to elicit what Patricia Baret told Heidstra about TV appearances and money; Darden objects hearsay each time and is sustained each time. Cochran then pivots to whether Heidstra personally saw her on TV — he didn't — leaving the innuendo without the substance.

strategic

Johnnie Cochran•Robert Heidstra

Cochran reads through Heidstra's 1994 police statement line by line, getting confirmation or corrections. Heidstra volunteers that the statement was wrong about him being on Bundy Drive — he was in the alley and never on Bundy at all.

methodical

Johnnie Cochran•Robert Heidstra

Cochran asks whether Heidstra can determine someone's race from their voice. Heidstra calls it 'absurd' twice without prompting, a notably emphatic spontaneous answer.

revealing

Lance A. Ito•Johnnie Cochran

Judge notes Cochran is physically blocking the jury's view of the witness and asks him to move.

procedural

Light Moments (1)

Christopher Darden

Darden asks mid-logistics shuffle, 'Well, is he going to continue?' — a mild impatient aside during the back-and-forth over getting a clean copy of the statement.

Credibility Attacks (2)

⚔ Patricia Baret

bias / financial motive

Cochran attempts to show Baret sought TV appearances and possibly money after the murders, implying a motive to shade her testimony — all hearsay objections sustained, leaving only the implication that Heidstra spoke to her about it

⚔ Robert Heidstra

prior inconsistent statement (reverse — used by defense to rehabilitate)

Cochran uses Heidstra's own statement to Payne to show he never described the voices as differing in age or depth, implicitly walking back anything elicited on cross that went beyond his original account

Witness Demeanor

(Brief pause.) — during logistics over exhibit copy

Heidstra answers 'Absurd, absurd' with apparent strong feeling, not prompted by the question's framing

Objections

9 objections (5 sustained, 3 overruled)

Proceeding 6774 • 196 utterances • Defense witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103