Cross-examination of Robert Heidstra (part 1)

📄 Cross-examination of Robert Heidstra (part 1) — Wednesday, July 12, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\JUL\12\CROSS-EXAMINATION-OF-ROBERT-HE.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 113 of 167

◀ Direct examination of Robert Heidstra (part 2) Counsel discussion ▶

Witness: Robert Heidstra
Examiner: Christopher Darden
Called by: Defense • Date: Wednesday, July 12, 1995 • Utterances: 418

Darden cross-examines Robert Heidstra, the dog-walker who testified he heard a gate slam near Nicole's condo around the time of the murders. Darden focuses on two main goals: establishing that the vehicle Heidstra saw was a Ford Bronco (OJ's vehicle), and undermining his credibility by suggesting he hoped to profit financially from his testimony. Heidstra repeatedly hedges on the Bronco identification, and partially concedes he had told multiple people the vehicle might have been a Bronco.

# 1 THE COURT:

Mr. Darden.

# 2 MR. DARDEN:

Thank you, your Honor. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

THE JURY: Good morning.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. DARDEN

# 3 MR. DARDEN:

Good morning, Mr. Heidstra.

# 4 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Good morning, Mr. Darden.

# 5 MR. DARDEN:

This is the second time we have said good morning to each other; is that correct?

# 6 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes, exactly, just before.

# 7 MR. DARDEN:

When we came into court this morning we greeted each other?

# 8 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right, yes.

# 9 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. Did I understand you to testify, Mr. Heidstra, that when you arrived at the end of the alley at Dorothy that you saw a vehicle at the corner of Dorothy and Bundy?

# 10 MR. HEIDSTRA:

When I walked up the street a few houses and then I looked back toward Bundy and then I saw one of the cars coming down from the west side of Dorothy.

# 11 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. Now, Nicole Simpson's condo was on the west side of Bundy; is that correct?

# 12 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 13 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. And Dorothy is just a little bit south of Nicole Brown Simpson's condo?

# 14 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Exactly, exactly.

# 15 MR. DARDEN:

So the vehicle that you saw then was going west toward Bundy, right?

# 16 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, it came to Bundy.

# 17 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. The vehicle stopped at Bundy?

# 18 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 19 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. And this vehicle, Mr. Heidstra, it was white, wasn't it?

# 20 MR. HEIDSTRA:

White, yeah, very light.

# 21 MR. DARDEN:

It was a sports--

# 22 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I would say white.

# 23 MR. DARDEN:

It was a sport utility vehicle, wasn't it?

# 24 MR. HEIDSTRA:

A sport?

# 25 MR. DARDEN:

Yeah.

# 26 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, it was like a Jeep or wagon car.

# 27 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. A four-wheel drive sort of vehicle?

# 28 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Probably, yes.

# 29 MR. DARDEN:

It wasn't a car, was it?

# 30 MR. HEIDSTRA:

It was a car, yes.

# 31 MR. DARDEN:

Well, was it a car in the sense that it was like a van or a truck?

# 32 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, it was like a wagon, wagon car, Jeep like car.

# 33 MR. DARDEN:

When you talked to the police initially, you told them that you thought that the vehicle might be a Blazer; is that correct?

# 34 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah. They asked me if was a Blazer. It looks like a Blazer car.

# 35 MR. DARDEN:

And did it look like a Blazer?

# 36 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, that size of car.

# 37 MR. DARDEN:

I'm sorry?

# 38 MR. HEIDSTRA:

The size of the car was like a Blazer.

# 39 MR. DARDEN:

Ford Blazer?

# 40 MR. COCHRAN:

Just a moment. I object. The Blazer is not a Ford.

# 41 MR. DARDEN:

I'm sorry.

# 42 THE COURT:

Excuse me. You need to stand.

# 43 MR. COCHRAN:

Objection.

# 44 THE COURT:

Thank you. Sustained.

# 45 MR. DARDEN:

I'm sorry.

# 46 THE COURT:

Rephrase the question.

# 47 MR. DARDEN:

A Blazer is made by Chevrolet?

# 48 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes, yes.

# 49 MR. DARDEN:

And you also said that it resembled a Ford; is that correct?

# 50 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I don't recall that.

# 51 MR. DARDEN:

Well, did you tell the police that the vehicle resembled a Ford Bronco?

# 52 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Never.

# 53 MR. COCHRAN:

Asked and answered, your Honor.

# 54 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 55 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I said it looks like a wagon. I told them, a wagon or Jeep like car.

# 56 MR. DARDEN:

Didn't you tell the police that the vehicle looked like a Ford Bronco?

# 57 MR. COCHRAN:

Asked and answered, your Honor.

# 58 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 59 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, sir.

# 60 MR. DARDEN:

Were you interviewed by the police, Mr. Heidstra?

# 61 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 62 MR. DARDEN:

And before we get to that, Mr. Heidstra, you have talked to other people about the vehicle that you saw at Bundy and Dorothy that night; is that correct?

# 63 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 64 MR. DARDEN:

You talked to a reporter from channel 2, didn't you?

# 65 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 66 MR. DARDEN:

And didn't you tell that reporter from channel 2 that the vehicle looked like a Ford Bronco?

# 67 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I don't recall that. I said it must be a van, a Jeep or a wagon.

# 68 MR. DARDEN:

Did you tell the reporter that the vehicle looked like a Ford Bronco?

# 69 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I don't recall that.

# 70 MR. DARDEN:

Are you saying that you did not or are you saying you just don't remember?

# 71 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I don't recall. I don't recall. I don't recall.

# 72 MR. DARDEN:

Did you see yourself on the news this past Monday night, Mr. Heidstra?

# 73 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Just a little shot, yeah, I saw.

# 74 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. And did you see yourself on the news discussing whether or not the vehicle looked like a Ford Bronco?

# 75 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No. I just saw little just a shot of it when I came home.

# 76 MR. DARDEN:

And you know someone named Patricia, don't you?

# 77 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 78 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. And Patricia works at a veterinarian's office?

# 79 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 80 MR. DARDEN:

And she is also French; is that correct?

# 81 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, she is French.

# 82 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. And you speak French?

# 83 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I do.

# 84 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. And she speaks French?

# 85 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 86 MR. DARDEN:

And you have talked to Patricia?

# 87 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes, we talk.

# 88 MR. DARDEN:

About your observations that night; is that correct?

# 89 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 90 MR. DARDEN:

Did you tell Patricia that the vehicle resembled a Ford Bronco?

# 91 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I told her that it was like a wagon, a wagon car, big like a Jeep.

# 92 MR. DARDEN:

Did you tell Patricia that the vehicle looked like a Ford Bronco?

# 93 MR. COCHRAN:

Asked and answered, your Honor.

# 94 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 95 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Like a Blazer, Blazer car. Might have said maybe a Bronco. I don't recall that.

# 96 MR. DARDEN:

In your opinion does a Chevy Blazer and a Ford Bronco resemble each other.

# 97 MR. HEIDSTRA:

They resemble each other, I would say so, yes.

# 98 MR. DARDEN:

And you do detail cars; is that right?

# 99 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 100 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. And do you detail a Mercedes Benz for a man named Mr. Field?

# 101 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 102 MR. DARDEN:

You have talked to Mr. Field about your observations; is that correct?

# 103 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes, we did.

# 104 MR. DARDEN:

And didn't you tell Mr. Field that the vehicle you saw was a Ford Bronco?

# 105 MR. HEIDSTRA:

It could have been a Blazer or Ford Bronco. They resemble.

# 106 MR. DARDEN:

Mr. Heidstra--

# 107 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 108 MR. DARDEN:

--please, sir, did you tell Mr. Field that the vehicle you saw looked like a Ford Bronco?

# 109 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I might have said that. Might have said like it was a Blazer. It could be a Blazer, too.

# 110 MR. DARDEN:

Mr. Heidstra--

# 111 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I don't know exactly.

# 112 MR. DARDEN:

Did you tell Mr. Field that the vehicle appeared to be a Ford Bronco?

# 113 MR. COCHRAN:

Asked and answered, your Honor.

# 114 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 115 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I might have said that probably, but I don't recall that. I said--

# 116 (Brief pause.)

# 117 MR. DARDEN:

You said you might have said that, Mr. Heidstra?

# 118 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Might have said that. He understood that I said it was a Bronco, but I could have said it is like a Blazer or a Jeep car, a light color car.

KEY QUOTE

# 119 MR. DARDEN:

Did you use the word "Bronco" during your conversation with Mr. Field when you described the vehicle you saw?

# 120 MR. COCHRAN:

Asked and answered, your Honor.

# 121 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I don't know.

# 122 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 123 MR. HEIDSTRA:

It may be a long time ago. I don't recall that. I don't recall that at all.

# 124 MR. DARDEN:

You have given us a detailed account of your walk that night; is that correct?

# 125 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 126 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. And have you attempted to be detailed in your account of what you saw and heard that night?

# 127 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Can you repeat it again, please?

# 128 MR. DARDEN:

Have you attempted to provide us with a detailed account?

# 129 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Exactly, yes.

# 130 MR. DARDEN:

You have tried to be as accurate as you could possibly be; is that correct?

# 131 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I tried to.

# 132 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. Now, the vehicle that you saw make that right turn from Dorothy onto Bundy, that vehicle had tinted windows, didn't it?

# 133 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah. It looked like tinted windows, yes.

# 134 MR. DARDEN:

And it had a chrome bumper from the back?

# 135 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I couldn't see the back. It was too big distance.

# 136 MR. DARDEN:

Did you ever tell anyone that it had a chrome bumper on the back, Mr. Heidstra?

# 137 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I never said--never said that to anybody, not that I remember.

# 138 MR. DARDEN:

I'm sorry, I can't hear you.

# 139 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I never saw that. Could never see that from the distance.

# 140 MR. DARDEN:

So the vehicle was white and it had tinted windows?

# 141 MR. COCHRAN:

Your Honor, I object to that. Misstates the testimony. He said light color.

# 142 THE COURT:

Overruled. Rephrase your question, counsel.

# 143 MR. DARDEN:

And this vehicle that you saw, when it made that right turn onto Bundy, did you hear the tires screech?

# 144 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No. It accelerated fast but I didn't hear the tires, no.

# 145 MR. DARDEN:

It accelerated fast?

# 146 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Pretty fast, yeah.

# 147 MR. DARDEN:

And you noticed that, didn't you?

# 148 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I did notice that, yes, sure.

# 149 MR. DARDEN:

Did you consider that unusual at the time?

# 150 MR. COCHRAN:

Object to the form of the question, your Honor.

# 151 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 152 MR. HEIDSTRA:

If the person was in a hurry maybe or something.

# 153 MR. DARDEN:

Well, did you wonder if that person was in a hurry?

# 154 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, looks like he was in a hurry.

# 155 MR. DARDEN:

Did you wonder why that person was in a hurry?

# 156 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Why?

# 157 MR. DARDEN:

Yes.

# 158 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, no. I don't know the driver. I don't know.

# 159 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. So when this white vehicle that looked like a Bronco with tinted windows--

# 160 MR. COCHRAN:

Object to the form of the question, your Honor. Misstates the evidence, your Honor.

# 161 THE COURT:

Sustained. Rephrase the question.

# 162 MR. DARDEN:

Did the vehicle look like a Bronco?

# 163 MR. COCHRAN:

Asked and answered, your Honor.

# 164 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I said again like a Blazer. It could have been a Bronco. I don't know.

# 165 THE COURT:

Excuse me. Mr. Heidstra, when you hear an organization, don't answer the question.

# 166 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I'm sorry, sir.

# 167 THE COURT:

Let the attorney finish asking the question before you start your answer. Pull the microphone close to you, please.

# 168 (Witness complies.)

# 169 THE COURT:

Thank you. All right. Rephrase the question.

# 170 MR. DARDEN:

Mr. Heidstra, you testified a little while ago that you are not here to favor either side in this case; is that correct?

# 171 MR. HEIDSTRA:

That's correct.

# 172 MR. DARDEN:

Do you have some financial interest in the outcome of this case, Mr. Heidstra?

# 173 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Not at all. Not at all.

# 174 MR. DARDEN:

Are you planning on making some money by testifying in this case, Mr. Heidstra?

# 175 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Not at all.

# 176 MR. DARDEN:

Didn't you tell Patricia Baret--is that how you pronounce her last name, Baret?

# 177 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I guess so.

# 178 MR. DARDEN:

Didn't you tell Patricia Baret when this case is finished you are going to make a lot of money?

# 179 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I didn't say that.

# 180 MR. DARDEN:

You never told her that?

# 181 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Maybe something might come out of it, but I never said a lot of money.

# 182 MR. DARDEN:

So you think you might make some money as a result of testifying in this case?

# 183 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Maybe. I don't know.

# 184 MR. DARDEN:

And you could use a few dollars, right?

# 185 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes, yes.

# 186 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. The apartment that you live in is located on Dorothy?

# 187 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 188 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. And where in the building is your apartment located?

# 189 MR. HEIDSTRA:

In the front.

# 190 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. Now, you mentioned something yesterday about a sub-garage?

# 191 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Sub-garage, yeah.

# 192 MR. DARDEN:

Is your apartment located in the sub-garage?

# 193 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 194 MR. DARDEN:

And your apartment is a one-room apartment; is that correct?

# 195 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 196 MR. DARDEN:

And you live in that apartment with your two dogs?

# 197 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 198 MR. DARDEN:

The two elderly dogs?

# 199 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 200 MR. DARDEN:

You live there alone?

# 201 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Alone, yes.

# 202 MR. DARDEN:

With the two dogs?

# 203 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 204 MR. DARDEN:

And you lived there for 17 years alone with those two dogs?

# 205 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 206 MR. DARDEN:

And the only kind of work you do is washing cars?

# 207 MR. COCHRAN:

Object to the to the question.

# 208 MR. DARDEN:

And detailing cars; is that correct?

# 209 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 210 MR. COCHRAN:

I object to the form of the question.

# 211 THE COURT:

Hold it. Never mind.

# 212 MR. DARDEN:

And not to demean you, but that is just how you make your living?

# 213 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 214 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. You have dreams of one day having a lot of money, don't you?

# 215 MR. COCHRAN:

Object to the form of that question, your Honor.

# 216 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 217 MR. DARDEN:

Well, you have a desire--

# 218 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Everybody I guess would have dreamed to have money.

# 219 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. And you have a desire to one day have enough money to purchase a Rolls Royce, don't you?

# 220 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, I don't like Rolls Royces.

# 221 MR. DARDEN:

Now, Mr. Field is a prominent businessman, is he not?

# 222 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I guess so, yeah.

# 223 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. Didn't you tell Mr. Field that as a result of this case that you expected to make enough money to purchase a Rolls Royce?

# 224 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Never, never said that. I'm not interested in Rolls Royces in the first place. Maybe another car maybe. That could be.

# 225 MR. DARDEN:

Well, the car that you have now is a `63 corvette?

# 226 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, `72 corvette.

# 227 MR. DARDEN:

`72 corvette. In poor condition, right?

# 228 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Pardon?

# 229 MR. DARDEN:

And it is in poor condition; is that right?

# 230 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Important?

# 231 MR. DARDEN:

Poor condition?

# 232 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, it is in poor condition. Sorry.

# 233 MR. DARDEN:

So you could use a new car?

# 234 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, I wish I had it.

# 235 MR. DARDEN:

Now, Patricia Baret, she works at the veterinarian's clinic; is that right?

# 236 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 237 MR. DARDEN:

You come in from time to time with your dogs?

# 238 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 239 MR. DARDEN:

Do you also wash the cars there for some of the people?

# 240 MR. HEIDSTRA:

For the doctor, yes.

# 241 MR. DARDEN:

So you wash cars in exchange for veterinarian services?

# 242 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, no, no. They pay me with a check always.

# 243 MR. DARDEN:

And while you are there, on occasion you talked to Patricia Baret; is that right?

# 244 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 245 MR. DARDEN:

Do you go there every week?

# 246 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Every other week.

# 247 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. And you and she talk just about every other week; is that right?

# 248 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Not much. She is in the front office and I'm in the back doing the car.

# 249 MR. DARDEN:

But you always talk with her about the case, don't you?

# 250 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Sometimes when it comes up. Not all the time.

# 251 MR. DARDEN:

And when you speak to Miss Baret about the case, you always speak to her in French?

# 252 MR. HEIDSTRA:

She starts speaking to me in French so I answer in French.

# 253 MR. DARDEN:

Now, you testified that you do some work for the Salingers; is that right?

# 254 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 255 MR. DARDEN:

And they live next door to O.J. Simpson?

# 256 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 257 MR. DARDEN:

Okay.

# 258 MR. HEIDSTRA:

And the Salingers have a maid; is that correct, or they had a maid?

# 259 MR. HEIDSTRA:

They had a maid.

# 260 MR. DARDEN:

That maid's name was Rosa Lopez, wasn't it?

# 261 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes, sure.

# 262 MR. DARDEN:

And Rosa Lopez is someone who is on the Defense witness list, isn't she?

# 263 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 264 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. And you have spoken to Rosa Lopez?

# 265 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Oh, yes, a long time ago.

# 266 MR. DARDEN:

You spoke to her about the case; is that correct?

# 267 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, we talk.

# 268 MR. DARDEN:

And in response to Mr. Cochran's questions you told us that you met me on memorial day?

# 269 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I met you on memorial day, yes.

# 270 MR. DARDEN:

And you talked to Detective Payne, was it, on other occasions?

# 271 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Well, that is a long time ago.

# 272 MR. DARDEN:

But I wasn't the first Prosecutor to come out to your house and speak to you, was I?

# 273 MR. HEIDSTRA:

It was Mr. Payne when the murders happened that he came to my door.

# 274 MR. DARDEN:

Have you ever met Mr. Hodgman out there?

# 275 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes, I met him once.

# 276 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. You understand that Mr. Hodgman is with the D.A.'s office?

# 277 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 278 MR. DARDEN:

And did you go on a walk with Mr. Hodgman?

# 279 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, never.

# 280 MR. DARDEN:

So both Mr. Hodgman and myself have been out to your house; is that right?

# 281 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Well, Mr. Hodgman, I met him, he passed by with Mr. Payne in a car.

# 282 MR. DARDEN:

Okay.

# 283 MR. HEIDSTRA:

And I was walking my dogs.

# 284 MR. DARDEN:

And Mr. Stevens, he is an investigator for my office?

# 285 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 286 MR. DARDEN:

He has been out to your house a couple of times?

# 287 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Never.

# 288 MR. DARDEN:

He was out there with me; is that correct?

# 289 MR. HEIDSTRA:

That is the first time.

# 290 MR. DARDEN:

So all in all then you have had, what, four visits then from police officers or Prosecutors in this case?

# 291 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah. Mr. Payne most of the time, three times or something.

# 292 MR. DARDEN:

But you have also had visits from other lawyers, haven't you?

# 293 MR. HEIDSTRA:

From whom?

# 294 MR. DARDEN:

You have been visited by other lawyers in this case; is that correct?

# 295 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Lawyers?

# 296 MR. DARDEN:

Yes.

# 297 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I don't recall, no.

# 298 MR. DARDEN:

Well, do you know F. Lee Bailey?

# 299 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Oh, yes. I met him. Sorry, yes.

# 300 MR. DARDEN:

You understand that he is a lawyer?

# 301 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 302 MR. DARDEN:

Have you met him at your house?

# 303 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Not in my house.

# 304 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. But you met him somewhere else; is that correct?

# 305 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 306 MR. DARDEN:

Where did you meet him?

# 307 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I met him down the street on Bundy and Dorothy. He was there with the investigator.

# 308 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. And you spoke to Mr. Bailey?

# 309 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, we introduced to Mr. Bailey.

# 310 MR. DARDEN:

But you have spoken to Mr. Bailey on a number of occasions; is that correct?

# 311 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Never, no; only one time.

# 312 MR. DARDEN:

Only one time?

# 313 MR. HEIDSTRA:

One time.

# 314 MR. DARDEN:

Who was the investigator that was with Mr. Bailey?

# 315 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Mr. McKenna.

# 316 MR. DARDEN:

How many times have you spoken to Mr. McKenna?

# 317 MR. HEIDSTRA:

About four or five times at least.

# 318 MR. DARDEN:

And you and Mr. McKenna had a little experiment going out there at Bundy, didn't you?

# 319 MR. HEIDSTRA:

At the time I met Mr. Bailey?

# 320 MR. DARDEN:

Well, how about that time? Did you and Mr. McKenna run a little experiment out there?

# 321 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No. He came to my door and introduced me to Mr. Bailey.

# 322 MR. DARDEN:

Well, Mr. Bailey--

# 323 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Down the street. Mr. McKenna--

# 324 MR. DARDEN:

Mr. McKenna came to your door?

# 325 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 326 MR. DARDEN:

And he asked you to walk down to the end of the block and meet Mr. Bailey?

# 327 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right, right, right, right, right.

# 328 MR. DARDEN:

You testified yesterday that you heard a gate slam; is that correct?

# 329 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 330 MR. DARDEN:

And when you heard that gate slam--

# 331 (Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

# 332 MR. DARDEN:

And when you heard that gate--well, you said you heard that gate slam. You heard a gate slam?

# 333 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right, right.

# 334 MR. DARDEN:

And when you heard that gate slam would you just show us where you were exactly when you heard that gate slam.

# 335 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Here, (Indicating).

# 336 MR. DARDEN:

Now, could you just keep the pointer there and come around to the other side.

# 337 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Sorry.

# 338 MR. DARDEN:

Show us again, please.

# 339 MR. HEIDSTRA:

(Indicating).

# 340 MR. DARDEN:

So you were in the alley; is that correct?

# 341 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 342 MR. DARDEN:

In the middle of the alley?

# 343 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right here, (Indicating).

# 344 MR. DARDEN:

Could you step back up and repeat your answer. My question was were you in the middle of the alley?

# 345 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Just on the side there from the alley; not in the middle. I don't recall that exactly. I was standing there.

# 346 THE COURT:

All right. Mr. Darden, you are referring to Defense exhibit--

# 347 MR. DARDEN:

Yes, your Honor. Defense exhibit 1239.

# 348 THE COURT:

Thank you.

# 349 MR. DARDEN:

And Mr. Heidstra, this alley is east of Bundy; is that correct?

# 350 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 351 MR. DARDEN:

So you are in the alley, right?

# 352 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 353 MR. DARDEN:

Between you and the alley is other--strike that. Between you and Bundy there is a garage; is that correct?

# 354 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah. There is a garage on the left, yeah.

# 355 MR. DARDEN:

That garage was in front of you when you heard the gate slam?

# 356 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 357 MR. DARDEN:

And beyond the garage or just beyond the garage and west going west toward Bundy is a house; is that correct?

# 358 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, beyond the garage, yeah, there is a house.

# 359 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. So there was a garage and a house between you and that gate?

# 360 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right, exactly.

# 361 MR. DARDEN:

And then beyond the house there is the sidewalk; is that correct?

# 362 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, it is on higher level ground than Nicole's property, so you can hear the sound even better there.

# 363 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. So then there is a garage, a house and a sidewalk between you and that gate at 875 south Bundy?

# 364 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right, right, right, right.

# 365 MR. DARDEN:

And then there is a street, isn't there?

# 366 MR. HEIDSTRA:

There is Bundy, yeah.

# 367 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. That is a fairly wide street, is it?

# 368 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, two lanes. Pretty wide street.

# 369 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. Then on the opposite side of Bundy, which would be the west side, there is also grass and a sidewalk?

# 370 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right. It is not very big sidewalk, very small.

# 371 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. And a walkway that leads up to the front of 875 south Bundy, correct?

# 372 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, that comes out there.

# 373 MR. DARDEN:

And yet it is your testimony that the gate that you heard slam this night was the gate at 875 south Bundy, Mr. Heidstra?

# 374 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Sure, because I was just opposite Nicole's condo and the ground I told you is higher level. You can hear the sound even better.

# 375 MR. DARDEN:

Could you hear--strike that. Could you see the gate at 875 south Bundy?

# 376 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, the garage. I could never see it.

# 377 MR. DARDEN:

There is no way for you to see the gate at 875 south Bundy, is there?

# 378 MR. COCHRAN:

Object, your Honor, asked and answered.

# 379 THE COURT:

Overruled. It is argumentative, though, the way it is phrased.

# 380 MR. DARDEN:

Would you agree that it was impossible to see the gate from that location?

# 381 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I could never see the gate.

# 382 MR. DARDEN:

Well, how is it then that you formed the opinion that the gate that you heard slam was the gate at 875 south Bundy?

# 383 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Because I passed by with my dogs and I--the Akita has been always behind that gate and I said, boy, that is the gate from the Akita. I was just opposite it.

KEY QUOTE

# 384 MR. DARDEN:

That is not what you told the police, is it?

# 385 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Oh, yes. I told them I heard the gate slamming.

# 386 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. You told the police you heard the gate slam?

# 387 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah. Mr. Payne said, "Boy, that must have been Nicole's condo."

# 388 MR. DARDEN:

And what reason did you give them for forming the opinion that it must have been Nicole Brown's condo?

# 389 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Because--because of that commotion with the Akita and I knew he lived there.

# 390 MR. DARDEN:

Isn't it true that you told the police--and you talked to the police on June 21st of 1994; is that correct?

# 391 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah. It must be about that date.

# 392 MR. DARDEN:

Isn't it true that you told the police that in your opinion the sound of the slamming gate came from Nicole Brown's residence because that is the only one in the area with a large metal security gate?

# 393 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Well, there is another gate from the neighbors, I guess have a gate there, but it sound for me, because of that Akita, I knew--I said it must be the gate.

# 394 MR. DARDEN:

There are several gates located on the west side of Bundy; is that correct?

# 395 MR. HEIDSTRA:

There is--there is more gates.

# 396 MR. DARDEN:

Several metal gates?

# 397 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Metal gates, yeah.

# 398 MR. DARDEN:

Up and down that street, correct?

# 399 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Next door the big condo has one big one, two or three.

# 400 MR. DARDEN:

There are gates in front of 875 and the adjoining condo; is that correct?

# 401 MR. HEIDSTRA:

The adjoining, yeah. Yes.

# 402 MR. DARDEN:

There are gates behind both of those condos, correct?

# 403 MR. HEIDSTRA:

You mean on the other side, on the alley side?

# 404 MR. DARDEN:

Yes.

# 405 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, there must be gates there. There are gates there.

# 406 MR. DARDEN:

Would you agree that there are approximately 21 gates, metal gates, on the buildings located on the west side of Bundy between Gorham and Dorothy?

# 407 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I never counted them.

# 408 MR. DARDEN:

How many would you say there are?

# 409 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I just noticed the front gate on Bundy. That is it.

# 410 MR. DARDEN:

Now, you understand, Mr. Heidstra--well, strike that. Was it your understanding that the only way you could make money after this case would be if you came here to testify?

# 411 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, I never thought about that. I just come here to tell the truth from both sides.

# 412 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. But do you admit that you told other people that you hoped to make some money off this case when it was over?

# 413 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I didn't say. Jokingly we talked about it. Like everybody will do, you joke about that, joking.

KEY QUOTE

# 414 MR. DARDEN:

But you did say that, didn't you?

# 415 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I said that, yes.

# 416 MR. DARDEN:

Okay.

# 417 MR. HEIDSTRA:

But not a lot of money. I said some money maybe.

KEY QUOTE

# 418 MR. DARDEN:

All right. Could I have one moment, your Honor?

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (4)

Robert Heidstra

Might have said that. He understood that I said it was a Bronco, but I could have said it is like a Blazer or a Jeep car, a light color car.

A partial admission that Heidstra used the word 'Bronco' when describing the vehicle to Mr. Field, the prosecution's most significant gain in this cross.

Robert Heidstra

I said that, yes. But not a lot of money. I said some money maybe.

Heidstra admits he told people he hoped to make money off this case, undermining his claim to be a disinterested witness.

Robert Heidstra

Jokingly we talked about it. Like everybody will do, you joke about that, joking.

Heidstra's attempted walk-back of his admission about expecting financial gain from the case.

Robert Heidstra

Because I passed by with my dogs and I--the Akita has been always behind that gate and I said, boy, that is the gate from the Akita. I was just opposite it.

Heidstra explains why he believed the slamming gate was Nicole's, but the reasoning undercuts the certainty of his testimony — it was an inference based on a dog's usual location, not direct observation.

Evidence (1)

Defense 1239

Map or diagram of the alley east of Bundy, used to establish Heidstra's position when he heard the gate slam

discussed, witness pointed to location on diagram

Notable Exchanges (4)

Christopher Darden•Robert Heidstra

Darden methodically confronts Heidstra with each person he described the vehicle to — the Channel 2 reporter, Patricia Baret, and Mr. Field — asking whether he used the word 'Bronco' in each conversation. Heidstra cycles through 'I don't recall,' 'might have said that,' and 'I might have said that probably' before partially conceding he may have used the word.

strategic

Christopher Darden•Robert Heidstra

Darden establishes there are approximately 21 metal gates on the west side of Bundy between Gorham and Dorothy, directly challenging Heidstra's certainty that the slamming sound came from Nicole's gate specifically, which he could not even see from his position.

revealing

Christopher Darden•Robert Heidstra

Darden probes Heidstra's financial motive — his admission that he told Patricia Baret 'maybe something might come out of it,' denial of the Rolls Royce comment, and admission that he 'could use a few dollars.' Heidstra lives alone in a sub-garage apartment, drives a '72 Corvette in poor condition, and earns a living detailing cars.

strategic

Johnnie Cochran•Lance A. Ito

Cochran objects that 'the Blazer is not a Ford' when Darden says 'Ford Blazer.' Ito sustains the objection. Darden apologizes and clarifies the Blazer is Chevrolet.

procedural

Light Moments (3)

Robert Heidstra

When Darden asks if Heidstra has dreams of one day having a lot of money, Heidstra interjects before the ruling: 'Everybody I guess would have dreamed to have money.' — the objection was sustained but the answer was already out.

Robert Heidstra

Heidstra denies wanting a Rolls Royce with unexpected specificity: 'Never, never said that. I'm not interested in Rolls Royces in the first place. Maybe another car maybe. That could be.'

Robert Heidstra

Heidstra mishears 'poor condition' as 'important' when Darden asks about his Corvette, leading to a brief comedic exchange of clarifications.

Credibility Attacks (3)

⚔ Robert Heidstra

bias — financial motive

Darden establishes through multiple witnesses (Patricia Baret, Mr. Field) that Heidstra stated he expected to make money from the case. Heidstra partially admits this, framing it as joking, but confirms he said it and acknowledged he 'could use a few dollars.'

⚔ Robert Heidstra

prior inconsistent statements

Darden confronts Heidstra with his descriptions of the vehicle to a Channel 2 reporter, to Patricia Baret, and to Mr. Field — suggesting he used the term 'Ford Bronco' in each conversation, which Heidstra variously denies, cannot recall, or partially concedes.

⚔ Robert Heidstra

impossibility of observation

Darden establishes that Heidstra could not see the gate at 875 South Bundy from his position in the alley — a garage, a house, a sidewalk, and the full width of Bundy Street separated them — and that there are approximately 21 metal gates on the block, undercutting his certainty about which gate slammed.

Witness Demeanor

(Brief pause.) — during the exchange about telling Mr. Field the vehicle was a Bronco

(Witness complies.) — when Judge Ito asks Heidstra to pull the microphone closer

(Indicating.) — multiple times when Heidstra points to his location on the diagram

Objections

13 objections (3 sustained, 9 overruled)

Proceeding 6767 • 418 utterances • Defense witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103