Direct examination of Robert Heidstra (part 2)

📄 Direct examination of Robert Heidstra (part 2) — Tuesday, July 11, 1995

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C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\JUL\11\DIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-ROBERT-H.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 112 of 167

◀ Direct examination of Robert Heidstra (part 1) Scheduling discussion ▶

Witness: Robert Heidstra
Examiner: Johnnie Cochran
Called by: Defense • Date: Tuesday, July 11, 1995 • Utterances: 155

Johnnie Cochran walks Robert Heidstra through the timeline of his evening on June 12th, 1994 — establishing that he heard sounds (including 'Hey, hey, hey') at approximately 10:40 PM in the alley near Bundy, and was home by 11:00 PM confirmed by the nightly news. Cochran then establishes Heidstra's chain of contact with police and prosecutors: he told his story to a customer, whose secretary knew Ron Goldman and passed it to the LAPD; Detective Dennis Payne interviewed him around June 21st; he later met with Clark and Hodgman before the preliminary hearing. The examination closes on the pointed fact that the prosecution never subpoenaed Heidstra — only the defense did.

# 1 (Brief pause.)

# 2 MR. COCHRAN:

You then proceeded out of this alleyway back to Dorothy; is that correct?

# 3 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Exactly.

# 4 MR. COCHRAN:

And then was it your intent, when you did that, to go someplace?

# 5 MR. HEIDSTRA:

To go back home, the direction of my building where I live.

# 6 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Then ultimately did you go back home to your building?

# 7 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I went, yes.

# 8 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And do you recall that evening, if you recall, what time did you get back to your home that evening on Dorothy there near I think you said Westgate.

# 9 MR. DARDEN:

Objection, lack of foundation.

# 10 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 11 MR. COCHRAN:

You can answer that.

# 12 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Can I speak?

# 13 MR. COCHRAN:

Yes, you may speak, sir.

# 14 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Okay. Sorry. I stood in front of my building listening to the two dogs still barking and I was puzzled. I say what's going on?

# 15 MR. COCHRAN:

What time was it that you got back to your building?

# 16 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Well, let me explain it a little bit. So all of a sudden the two dogs started slower and slower barking and I said, ah, it is all over now. I don't know what is happening there. So I went inside and turned my TV to the local news, every night I do at eleven o'clock, and it was just announcing the news, so I was about eleven o'clock back home.

# 17 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. So that is how you know the time pretty much?

# 18 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, right, right.

# 19 MR. COCHRAN:

Okay. So let's see if we can retrace those steps and understand that.

# 20 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Uh-huh.

# 21 MR. COCHRAN:

As I understand your testimony, it was somewhere about 10:40 in the alleyway when you heard--first heard these sounds "Hey, hey, hey"?

# 22 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 23 MR. COCHRAN:

The metal gate and that sort of thing?

# 24 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 25 MR. COCHRAN:

You then continued on southbound in this alley that runs parallel to Bundy?

# 26 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 27 MR. COCHRAN:

You ultimately got to Dorothy Street?

# 28 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Exactly.

# 29 MR. COCHRAN:

You went back to your residence; is that correct?

# 30 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Exactly, yeah.

# 31 MR. COCHRAN:

By the time you got to your residence or up to your door the sound of the dogs barking had started to subside?

# 32 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah. Stood there for a couple minutes listening to the commotion and then all of a sudden even slower, slower barking, the Akita and the other dog.

# 33 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. By the time you went inside your house there on Dorothy--

# 34 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Uh-huh.

# 35 MR. COCHRAN:

--had the dogs stopped barking at that point?

# 36 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, very few barks still, and then I went inside and I didn't hear them any more.

# 37 MR. COCHRAN:

You got inside and you turned on the television; is that correct?

# 38 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, right.

# 39 MR. COCHRAN:

And then you--what--is it your testimony at that time the eleven o'clock news came on?

# 40 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, they were just announcing the news, so it was eleven o'clock.

KEY QUOTE

# 41 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Now, Mr. Heidstra, at some point did you find out that two murders had been committed in that neighborhood at some point, either that evening or the next day?

# 42 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No. That was the next day when I woke up and I was shaving myself and that was the news from double murders on Bundy.

# 43 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And so that was the next--next morning of June 13th; is that correct?

# 44 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, exactly.

# 45 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And did you have occasion at some time within a week or eight days after that to be interviewed by any police officers at any point?

# 46 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah. It was about--a little more than a week, I guess.

# 47 MR. COCHRAN:

That would be around June 21st you think?

# 48 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, around like that. I mean not for sure.

# 49 MR. COCHRAN:

Do you remember the name of the detective who came out to interview you?

# 50 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Dennis Payne.

# 51 MR. COCHRAN:

Dennis Payne is the detective?

# 52 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah. There were two of them, Dennis Payne and then other--I don't know the name,

# 53 MR. COCHRAN:

Would the name B. Parker refresh your recollection at all?

# 54 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Tall man, tall man. I don't know.

# 55 MR. COCHRAN:

How did these two police officers make contact with you about a week or so after June 12th, June 13?

# 56 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Well, I got a customer where I do the cars for and I told him my story and he has a secretary who was a good friend of Ron Goldman, so he told her the story and she told the police I know somebody where can you give the information.

# 57 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. So you shared with someone what you had heard that night; is that correct?

# 58 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right, right, right.

# 59 MR. COCHRAN:

And then you then--the police followed up and they came out to talk to you; is that correct?

# 60 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Exactly. Exactly.

# 61 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. So the first people that you talked to officially were the members of the Los Angeles Police Department?

# 62 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 63 MR. COCHRAN:

The person of Dennis Payne, right?

# 64 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes, exactly.

# 65 MR. COCHRAN:

He came out and where did you talk to him?

# 66 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Oh, in the sub-garage of my building.

# 67 MR. COCHRAN:

Where, sir?

# 68 MR. HEIDSTRA:

In the sub-garage of my building.

# 69 MR. COCHRAN:

The sub-garage of your building?

# 70 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, we talked to each other.

# 71 MR. COCHRAN:

At that time did Mr. Payne interview you?

# 72 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 73 MR. COCHRAN:

Did he take a full statement from you?

# 74 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 75 MR. COCHRAN:

And did you--you never signed any statement at that time, did you?

# 76 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, no, no, not at all.

# 77 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Did you try to be as accurate as could you when you talked to Detective Payne?

# 78 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Sure, sure, sure.

# 79 MR. COCHRAN:

You spelled out for him what happened and what you observed that evening?

# 80 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Oh, sure.

# 81 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you tell him that you had--you thought the dog had barked until about eleven o'clock in the evening?

# 82 MR. DARDEN:

Objection.

# 83 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 84 MR. DARDEN:

Motion to strike.

# 85 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 86 THE COURT:

The answer is stricken.

# 87 MR. COCHRAN:

Thank you.

# 88 MR. COCHRAN:

As I said, this conversation you had with Dennis Payne, was that conversation tape-recorded at all?

# 89 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, I never noticed anything.

# 90 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. So at any rate, you shared with him what you've told us here in court; is that correct?

# 91 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Exactly.

# 92 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, after you talked with Detective Payne on June 21st, 1994, did you, after that, have occasion to talk to another police officer, any other police officers after that?

# 93 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, not at all.

# 94 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you at some point have occasion to come downtown and speak to Miss Marcia Clark and Mr. Bill Hodgman?

# 95 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Sure, sure, I did.

# 96 MR. COCHRAN:

This lady, just so we are clear about Marcia Clark?

# 97 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Sure.

# 98 MR. COCHRAN:

This lady here, (Indicating)?

# 99 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Nice to see you again.

KEY QUOTE

# 100 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. You saw her and where did you see her?

# 101 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah. In I guess it was Mr. Hodgman's office because he was sitting behind a desk.

# 102 MR. COCHRAN:

Mr. Hodgman was behind a desk?

# 103 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 104 MR. COCHRAN:

Where was Miss Clark?

# 105 MR. HEIDSTRA:

She was sitting on my left.

# 106 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Who were you with at that point?

# 107 MR. HEIDSTRA:

With Mr.--Dennis Payne, the detective.

# 108 MR. COCHRAN:

Okay. How did you get downtown here?

# 109 MR. HEIDSTRA:

He picked me up.

# 110 MR. COCHRAN:

Picked you up from West Los Angeles and brought you down here?

# 111 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right, right, right.

# 112 MR. COCHRAN:

When was this that he brought you down here?

# 113 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Oh, my God, I don't know exactly. It was a few weeks after that I would say, after he interviewed me.

# 114 MR. COCHRAN:

A few weeks after you were interviewed?

# 115 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, right, right, yeah.

# 116 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. At that time you came here and did you have a conversation with Mr. Bill Hodgman and with Miss Marcia Clark?

# 117 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Sure.

# 118 MR. COCHRAN:

And what did you tell them at that time?

# 119 MR. DARDEN:

Objection, hearsay.

# 120 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 121 MR. COCHRAN:

Let me ask it another way: Did you have a conversation with them in which you told them what you had observed the evening hours of June 12th, 1994?

# 122 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Sure, I did.

# 123 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you tell them the truth?

# 124 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, the same story.

# 125 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you tell them what you had seen that evening?

# 126 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 127 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you see them taking any notes during that conversation?

# 128 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I guess Mr. Hodgman on his desk was taking little notes, I guess.

# 129 MR. COCHRAN:

Do you know whether or not that conversation was tape-recorded?

# 130 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No idea. Never saw anything.

# 131 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you talk also with Miss Marcia Clark?

# 132 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, a little bit, but more with Mr. Hodgman.

# 133 MR. COCHRAN:

Did Detective Payne say anything to you at that point?

# 134 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, he called me and said I was a crucial witness.

KEY QUOTE

# 135 MR. DARDEN:

Objection, hearsay, motion to strike.

# 136 THE COURT:

Sustained. The answer is stricken.

# 137 MR. COCHRAN:

Can you just answer that yes or no. Did you have any conversation with Detective Payne?

# 138 MR. HEIDSTRA:

During that moment you mean?

# 139 MR. COCHRAN:

Yes, while you were in Mr. Hodgman's office?

# 140 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, no, no, it was so--

# 141 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And how long did you have--did you talk with Messers. Hodgman, Payne and Miss Clark while you were down here?

# 142 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I would say twenty minutes, something like that.

# 143 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And do you know--do you know when there was a preliminary hearing in this matter? Do you know when the preliminary hearing was on?

# 144 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, I remember there was one.

# 145 MR. COCHRAN:

With regard to time, this interview, Mr. Hodgman, was this before or after the preliminary hearing?

# 146 MR. HEIDSTRA:

It was before I'm quite sure.

# 147 MR. COCHRAN:

Before the preliminary hearing?

# 148 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

# 149 MR. COCHRAN:

Were you ever subpoenaed to testify by the Prosecution at all?

# 150 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Never.

# 151 MR. COCHRAN:

You were never subpoenaed at any time?

# 152 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No.

# 153 MR. COCHRAN:

You are here today pursuant to subpoena from the Defense, are you?

# 154 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 155 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, after that initial conversation with Miss Marcia Clark and Mr. William Hodgman and the Detective Payne--

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (4)

Robert Heidstra

they were just announcing the news, so it was eleven o'clock

Heidstra's method of pinning his arrival home to 11 PM — anchoring the defense's timeline argument that the murders occurred earlier than the prosecution claimed

Robert Heidstra

He called me and said I was a crucial witness.

Heidstra's account of Detective Payne describing him as a 'crucial witness' — immediately stricken on hearsay grounds, but the jury heard it

Robert Heidstra

Nice to see you again.

Heidstra's casual greeting to Marcia Clark during Cochran's identification, underscoring his prior contact with the prosecution team

Robert Heidstra

Never.

Heidstra's answer when asked if he was ever subpoenaed by the prosecution — a one-word indictment of the prosecution's decision to sideline a witness they had interviewed

Notable Exchanges (3)

Johnnie Cochran•Robert Heidstra

Cochran methodically reconstructs the 10:40–11:00 PM timeline through Heidstra's dog walk, using the barking Akita and the 11 o'clock news as temporal anchors — key for the defense's argument that the murders happened before OJ's window of opportunity closed.

strategic

Johnnie Cochran•Robert Heidstra

Cochran establishes that Heidstra voluntarily shared his story with a customer whose secretary was friends with Ron Goldman, which led to police contact — preemptively defusing any suggestion that Heidstra sought out the defense.

strategic

Johnnie Cochran•Robert Heidstra

Cochran confirms Heidstra met with Marcia Clark and Bill Hodgman before the preliminary hearing, told them 'the same story,' and was never subpoenaed by them — implying the prosecution buried a witness whose testimony didn't fit their case.

revealing

Light Moments (1)

Robert Heidstra

When Cochran pointed out Marcia Clark to identify her, Heidstra said 'Nice to see you again' directly to her — a disarming moment of cordiality in the middle of a pointed line of questioning about why she never called him to testify.

Credibility Attacks (1)

⚔ Prosecution

omission/witness suppression inference

Cochran establishes that the prosecution interviewed Heidstra before the preliminary hearing, was told 'the same story' he's telling now, and never subpoenaed him — implying they deliberately avoided a witness whose 10:40 PM timeline undermined their narrative

Witness Demeanor

(Brief pause.) at opening

Repetitive affirmations ('right, right, right'; 'exactly, exactly'; 'sure, sure, sure') suggesting eagerness to confirm and cooperate

Expansive, narrative answers — Heidstra frequently elaborated beyond yes/no, requiring Cochran to redirect

Objections

4 objections (3 sustained, 1 overruled)

Proceeding 6743 • 155 utterances • Defense witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103