Direct examination of Robert Heidstra (part 1)

📄 Direct examination of Robert Heidstra (part 1) — Tuesday, July 11, 1995

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▲ Day 112 of 167

◀ Direct examination of Judy Telander Direct examination of Robert Heidstra (part 2) ▶

Witness: Robert Heidstra
Examiner: Johnnie Cochran
Called by: Defense • Date: Tuesday, July 11, 1995 • Utterances: 525

Robert Heidstra, a French-born car detailer who lived near Bundy Drive, testified about his dog-walking routine on the night of June 12, 1994. He described arriving near the intersection of Bundy and Gorham around 10:35 PM, where he heard Nicole Brown Simpson's Akita barking 'hysterically.' Retreating into an alley running parallel to Bundy, he heard two male voices — one saying 'Hey, hey, hey' clearly, a second responding briefly in what sounded like an argument — followed by a metal gate slamming, all around 10:40 PM.

# 1 MR. COCHRAN:

Mr. Robert Heidstra, your Honor.

# 2 (Brief pause.)

# 3 THE COURT:

Who is your next witness?

# 4 MR. COCHRAN:

Robert Heidstra, your Honor.

# 5 THE COURT:

All right.

# 6 (Brief pause.)

# 7 THE COURT:

Mr. Heidstra, would you stand right there, please, and face the clerk.

# 8 THE CLERK:

Please raise your right hand. You do solemnly swear that the testimony you may give in the cause now pending before this Court, shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God.

# 9 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I do.

# 10 THE CLERK:

Please have a seat on the witness stand and state and spell your first and last names for the record.

# 11 MR. HEIDSTRA:

All right. My name is Robert Heidstra, H-E-I-D-S-T-R-A.

# 12 THE COURT:

Mr. Heidstra, would you just lean back and pull the microphone towards you, please.

# 13 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Like this?

# 14 THE COURT:

Yes.

# 15 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Thank you.

# 16 THE COURT:

Mr. Cochran.

# 17 MR. COCHRAN:

Thank you very kindly.

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. COCHRAN

# 18 MR. COCHRAN:

Good afternoon, Mr. Heidstra.

# 19 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Good afternoon.

# 20 MR. COCHRAN:

I guess actually good evening.

# 21 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Almost evening, yes.

# 22 MR. COCHRAN:

Thank you, sir, for coming today. What is your occupation, Mr. Heidstra?

# 23 MR. HEIDSTRA:

A car detailer.

# 24 MR. COCHRAN:

And as a car detailer is there a particular area of the city in which you work?

# 25 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Mostly the west side, Beverly Hills.

# 26 MR. COCHRAN:

You have clients out in that general area?

# 27 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, Brentwood.

# 28 MR. COCHRAN:

You have got to move the microphone a little bit. May I approach, your Honor?

# 29 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Can you hear me?

# 30 MR. COCHRAN:

I think you can sit back, but I will try to get the microphone closer to you. Are you comfortable there?

# 31 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 32 MR. COCHRAN:

Is that okay?

# 33 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 34 THE COURT:

Proceed.

# 35 MR. COCHRAN:

Have you--are you a little nervous this afternoon?

# 36 MR. HEIDSTRA:

A little bit.

# 37 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, you are here pursuant to a subpoena; is that correct?

# 38 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 39 MR. COCHRAN:

Have you ever testified before in court?

# 40 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Never.

# 41 MR. COCHRAN:

This is the first time?

# 42 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 43 MR. COCHRAN:

Just take a deep breath and you can relax. Okay?

# 44 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 45 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, sir, I want to direct your attention back to the date of June 12th, 1994, which was a Sunday.

# 46 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 47 MR. COCHRAN:

Do you recall that particular day?

# 48 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 49 MR. COCHRAN:

At that time, in June of 1994, where did you live, Mr. Heidstra?

# 50 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I live on Dorothy Street.

# 51 MR. COCHRAN:

On Dorothy Street?

# 52 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yup.

# 53 MR. COCHRAN:

Is that in and about Brentwood?

# 54 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, very close to Brentwood area.

# 55 MR. COCHRAN:

Near Bundy and Dorothy?

# 56 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Very close to Bundy.

# 57 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. I don't want you to give your address.

# 58 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Okay.

# 59 MR. COCHRAN:

How long had you lived at that location as of June 12th of 1994?

# 60 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Oh, about 17 years.

# 61 MR. COCHRAN:

How many years?

# 62 MR. HEIDSTRA:

17.

# 63 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. So you lived near Dorothy and Bundy; is that correct?

# 64 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, I live on Dorothy.

# 65 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. You have never seen this diagram, People's 26, to your right, have you?

# 66 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No.

# 67 MR. COCHRAN:

Ever seen this before?

# 68 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No.

# 69 MR. COCHRAN:

We never showed that to you?

# 70 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No.

# 71 MR. COCHRAN:

With the Court's permission, can you step down?

# 72 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Like this?

# 73 MR. COCHRAN:

And see if you can take a look and I will show you where Bundy is and where Dorothy is.

# 74 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Uh-huh.

# 75 MR. COCHRAN:

Can you familiarize yourself with this and tell us if you can look at this and tell us where you live?

# 76 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I live here, about here, (Indicating).

# 77 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. So you live on--

# 78 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Dorothy.

# 79 MR. COCHRAN:

On Dorothy Street?

# 80 MR. HEIDSTRA:

This is Westgate.

# 81 MR. COCHRAN:

That is Westgate?

# 82 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 83 MR. COCHRAN:

The witness is referring to People's 26, your Honor.

# 84 MR. COCHRAN:

And you lived in between Bundy and Westgate on Dorothy?

# 85 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 86 MR. COCHRAN:

Is that correct?

# 87 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 88 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And you lived closer to Westgate?

# 89 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Oh, yeah.

# 90 MR. COCHRAN:

As indicated; is that correct?

# 91 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 92 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And that is a house there?

# 93 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, it is a building.

# 94 MR. COCHRAN:

Okay. Like an apartment building?

# 95 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 96 MR. COCHRAN:

You may resume your seat.

# 97 (Witness complies.)

# 98 MR. COCHRAN:

So that is where you live; is that right?

# 99 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 100 MR. COCHRAN:

You lived at that location for about 17 years?

# 101 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yup.

# 102 MR. COCHRAN:

On that particular evening, the evening of June 12th, did you have occasion in the evening hours to leave your house that evening?

# 103 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Excuse me? Can you repeat it?

# 104 MR. COCHRAN:

Certainly. On that particular evening, the evening of June 12th of 1994, did you have occasion to leave your house at some point in that evening after, say, ten o'clock?

# 105 MR. DARDEN:

Objection, leading.

# 106 MR. HEIDSTRA:

My routine is always ten o'clock with my dogs.

# 107 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 108 MR. COCHRAN:

Counsel was objecting. Let me ask that question again did.

# 109 MR. COCHRAN:

You have occasion to leave your house that evening?

# 110 (No audible response.)

# 111 MR. COCHRAN:

What was your response?

# 112 MR. HEIDSTRA:

To walk my dogs you mean?

# 113 MR. COCHRAN:

All right.

# 114 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I walk my dogs at ten o'clock my routine.

# 115 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Is English your native tongue?

# 116 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No.

# 117 MR. COCHRAN:

What is your native tongue?

# 118 MR. HEIDSTRA:

French.

# 119 MR. COCHRAN:

French?

# 120 MR. HEIDSTRA:

French.

# 121 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And--but you speak English enough so that you understand?

# 122 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Oh, yes, yeah, sure.

# 123 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, you normally walk your dogs you say around ten o'clock P.M.?

# 124 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, that is my last route around the block, ten o'clock always.

# 125 MR. COCHRAN:

Do you walk them at earlier times also?

# 126 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Oh, yeah. When I come home at six o'clock from work I walk them right away, too.

# 127 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Let's talk about on this particular Sunday evening, okay?

# 128 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 129 MR. COCHRAN:

Do you recall what time in the evening hours of that Sunday, June 12th, 1994, did you walk your dogs?

# 130 MR. HEIDSTRA:

At what time?

# 131 MR. COCHRAN:

Yes. What time was it?

# 132 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Ten o'clock.

# 133 MR. COCHRAN:

Yeah.

# 134 MR. HEIDSTRA:

All right. I should walk them at ten o'clock.

# 135 MR. COCHRAN:

I couldn't hear the last?

# 136 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I should walk them at ten o'clock that night.

# 137 MR. COCHRAN:

Okay. I missed the last thing. You've got to keep focusing on the microphone.

# 138 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Okay.

# 139 MR. COCHRAN:

You said you should walk them at ten o'clock?

# 140 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, I should walk them at ten o'clock.

# 141 MR. COCHRAN:

Okay. What time did you walk them on June 12th?

# 142 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Oh, it was quarter past 10:00.

# 143 MR. COCHRAN:

You walked them that night at 10:15?

# 144 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 145 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, so that we are clear, what kind of dogs did you have back on June 12th, 1994, sir?

# 146 MR. HEIDSTRA:

What kind of breed you mean?

# 147 MR. COCHRAN:

What kind of breed?

# 148 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Sheep dogs, Bearded Collie and a Puli.

# 149 MR. COCHRAN:

You got to slow that down.

# 150 MR. HEIDSTRA:

A Bearded Collie and a Puli. Puli is a Hungarian Sheep Dog.

# 151 MR. COCHRAN:

I'm not sure I'm picking that up. Let's see now. Let me ask you that again. You have two dogs, right, and they are sheep dogs?

# 152 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 153 MR. COCHRAN:

Are both of them sheep dogs?

# 154 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 155 MR. COCHRAN:

Okay. Now let's take it slowly. Let's take the first sheep dog. What kind of dog is it?

# 156 MR. HEIDSTRA:

It is a Bearded Collie.

# 157 MR. COCHRAN:

A bearded?

# 158 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Collie.

# 159 MR. COCHRAN:

Collie?

# 160 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 161 MR. COCHRAN:

Sheep dog?

# 162 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, black and white.

# 163 MR. COCHRAN:

Black and white Bearded Collie sheep dog?

# 164 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 165 MR. COCHRAN:

Okay. Now, let's take the second dog. What kind is that?

# 166 MR. HEIDSTRA:

That is a Puli, Hungarian Puli.

# 167 MR. COCHRAN:

A Hungarian Pewie?

# 168 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Puli, P-U-L-I.

# 169 MR. COCHRAN:

Okay. Puli?

# 170 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 171 MR. COCHRAN:

You have some kind of United Nations dogs, Hungarian Puli and the other kind?

# 172 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Unusual.

# 173 MR. COCHRAN:

Are those sheep dogs big dogs?

# 174 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, medium size.

# 175 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And how long before June 12th of 1994 had you had those dogs?

# 176 MR. HEIDSTRA:

The oldest one is a good fourteen years now.

# 177 MR. COCHRAN:

Both of them?

# 178 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, no, the oldest one.

# 179 MR. COCHRAN:

Which one is the oldest one?

# 180 MR. HEIDSTRA:

That is the Puli.

# 181 MR. COCHRAN:

The Puli was the oldest and that dog was about fourteen years of age?

# 182 MR. HEIDSTRA:

About 14, 13, 14.

# 183 THE COURT:

Mr. Cochran, the fact that he has got two medium-sized dogs, he is going out to walk--

# 184 MR. COCHRAN:

I was just intrigued by these dogs, your Honor. Thank you. I will move on. Still trying to get the names in my mind.

# 185 MR. COCHRAN:

At any rate, whatever age they were, at about 10:15 you went out to walk these dogs?

# 186 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right, right, right.

# 187 MR. COCHRAN:

As I understand it, sir, that was a routine that you did very often; is that right?

# 188 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Oh, yeah, hundreds of times I have done that.

# 189 MR. COCHRAN:

Okay. And when you left your residence, can you tell the Court and jury on which--which direction did you to go walk these dogs that night, that is, June 12th of 1994?

# 190 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Oh, yes. At 10:15 I left and I went toward Westgate.

# 191 MR. COCHRAN:

Okay.

# 192 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Toward Westgate about a couple of buildings from my place.

# 193 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. You got to keep your voice up. Keep your voice up. Toward Westgate?

# 194 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 195 MR. COCHRAN:

Okay. When you went toward Westgate, what did do you when you got to Westgate?

# 196 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I turned north on Westgate, a block north on Westgate

# 197 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. You turned north on Westgate?

# 198 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 199 MR. COCHRAN:

And then did you proceed down Westgate?

# 200 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, no, I turned west on Gorham.

# 201 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. You went north on Westgate to Gorham?

# 202 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 203 MR. COCHRAN:

And you--

# 204 MR. HEIDSTRA:

One block.

# 205 MR. COCHRAN:

--you turned west on Gorham?

# 206 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 207 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. As you proceeded down Gorham, in which direction on Gorham did you come?

# 208 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I went west--I went west on Gorham.

# 209 MR. COCHRAN:

All right.

# 210 MR. HEIDSTRA:

A long block. A long block.

# 211 MR. COCHRAN:

That is a long block?

# 212 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Very long, yeah.

# 213 MR. COCHRAN:

Does Gorham ultimately run into Bundy?

# 214 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 215 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you come down to Bundy?

# 216 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah. Well, I went almost into Bundy. It is a big curve there that comes together with Gorham.

# 217 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And when you got--what happened before you got to that curve, if anything?

# 218 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Nothing. Very quiet. Very quiet at night.

# 219 MR. COCHRAN:

It was very quiet at that point?

# 220 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, no problem.

# 221 MR. COCHRAN:

Before I ask you to look at a diagram, did you ultimately go down Bundy or any street parallel to Bundy?

# 222 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No. I stopped at Bundy.

# 223 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And then which way did you go at that point?

# 224 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Then I stopped because I heard all of a sudden from nowhere Akita barking like crazy hell broke loose with the Akita.

# 225 MR. COCHRAN:

Let me back up for a moment then. I'm going to show you a couple of diagrams actually. First I'm going to show you People's 26 for identification and I'm going to ask you to step down. And I want you to trace as best you can again the direction that you took. You described for us that you left your residence on Dorothy?

# 226 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, here.

# 227 MR. COCHRAN:

You went up to Westgate?

# 228 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Up here, (Indicating).

# 229 MR. COCHRAN:

Then you turned left on Westgate?

# 230 MR. HEIDSTRA:

All the way to Gorham right here to the corner.

# 231 MR. COCHRAN:

For the record, your Honor, People's 26.

# 232 MR. COCHRAN:

You turned left off of Westgate onto Gorham?

# 233 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 234 MR. COCHRAN:

Came all the way down to what looks like kind of a fork in the road on this diagram?

# 235 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah. There is a big curve here, big curve here on Bundy, and I stopped there.

# 236 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. The witness is indicating a big curve, your Honor, at what would be Bundy and Gorham.

# 237 MR. COCHRAN:

Is that right, sir?

# 238 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, comes together.

# 239 MR. COCHRAN:

When you got to that big curve at Bundy and Gorham can you tell us about what time it was, sir?

# 240 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Oh, it takes me about twenty minutes to get down there, so from 10:15, 10:30, 10:35.

# 241 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. You think somewhere around this area it is around 10:35?

# 242 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, around there.

# 243 MR. DARDEN:

Objection. That misstates the testimony.

# 244 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 245 MR. COCHRAN:

About 10:35 at this point; is that right?

# 246 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 247 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And now, when you got to that point did you see anything at that point when it is 10:35 and you are at Bundy and Gorham?

# 248 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Nothing.

# 249 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Now, you are still walking your dogs?

# 250 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 251 MR. COCHRAN:

Do you have the dogs--are they on a leash of any kind?

# 252 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, one is on a leash, the older one. Another one is always next to me loose.

# 253 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. He is loose at that point?

# 254 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 255 MR. COCHRAN:

Okay. When you got to that location--which is kind of a fork in the road at Bundy and Gorham?

# 256 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Uh-huh.

# 257 MR. COCHRAN:

--tell us then what happens at that point? Which direction did you go at that point?

# 258 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I stopped here because the Akita all of a sudden start to bark like crazy.

# 259 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. You heard--you stopped at this location; is that right?

# 260 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 261 MR. COCHRAN:

Why don't you resume your seat then.

# 262 MR. HEIDSTRA:

(Witness complies.) Okay.

# 263 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, you indicated at that point that I think you mentioned twice the Akita started to bark?

# 264 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Oh, yeah. I recognize him right away.

KEY QUOTE

# 265 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, you walked this route many nights, have you?

# 266 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Hundreds of times.

# 267 MR. COCHRAN:

How many times?

# 268 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Hundreds of times in the years.

# 269 MR. COCHRAN:

And you knew that there was an Akita that lived somewhere in that neighborhood?

# 270 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 271 MR. DARDEN:

Objection, leading.

# 272 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 273 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I have seen him before.

# 274 MR. COCHRAN:

Was there an Akita who lived somewhere in that neighborhood?

# 275 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I have seen him before there behind the gate.

# 276 MR. COCHRAN:

At what residence did the Akita live?

# 277 MR. HEIDSTRA:

That is the Akita from Nicole's condo.

# 278 MR. COCHRAN:

The Akita at Nicole's condo?

# 279 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, right.

# 280 MR. COCHRAN:

Nicole Brown Simpson's condo?

# 281 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, right.

# 282 MR. COCHRAN:

You heard this Akita start to bark?

# 283 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Oh, yeah, hysterically panicking.

# 284 MR. COCHRAN:

And you heard that at about 10:35?

# 285 MR. HEIDSTRA:

10:35, right.

# 286 MR. COCHRAN:

Prior to that had you heard that Akita dog barking that night?

# 287 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, not at all.

# 288 MR. COCHRAN:

And at that point you were at the intersection of Bundy and Gorham when you heard that sound?

# 289 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 290 MR. COCHRAN:

Is that right?

# 291 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 292 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. When you heard that sound what, if anything, did you do?

# 293 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Well, I was a little confused, what is going on there, and I was afraid more for my dogs because the Akita is a big dog and they are pretty protective, so I didn't want to go further with my dogs into Bundy.

# 294 MR. COCHRAN:

All right.

# 295 MR. HEIDSTRA:

So I--

# 296 MR. COCHRAN:

Let me ask you this: In your normal route would you ever walk down Bundy?

# 297 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Oh, yes, I would have gone around the block and come back to Dorothy.

# 298 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. But after you heard this noise with the Akita, which direction did you go?

# 299 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I stopped immediately and turned around with my dogs. Like I said, I was afraid for my dogs.

# 300 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. When you turned around with your dogs where did you go?

# 301 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Well, I decided I didn't want to go back the same way Gorham where I came from.

# 302 MR. COCHRAN:

So where did you go?

# 303 MR. HEIDSTRA:

So I stopped parallel to Nicole's condo, there is a houses on the other side and there is an alley.

# 304 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. There is an alleyway?

# 305 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Alleyway, yeah.

# 306 MR. COCHRAN:

Your Honor, I'm going to mark, with the Court's permission now, another exhibit.

# 307 (Discussion held off the record between Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)

# 308 THE COURT:

All right. Mr. Cochran, 1239.

# 309 MR. COCHRAN:

1239, yes, your Honor, two photographs. I'm showing them to Mr. Darden at this point.

# 310 (Deft's 1239 for id = posterboard w/ 2 photos)

# 311 THE COURT:

These are the aerial photos?

# 312 MR. DOUGLAS:

Yes, your Honor.

# 313 MR. COCHRAN:

Yes, your Honor. You have seen those?

# 314 (Brief pause.)

# 315 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, I want you to step down, again with the Court's permission, and we don't want to block the jurors, and I want you to look at what has now been marked as Defendant's 1239, and I want you to see if you can familiarize yourself with this particular aerial map, especially the part on the right side.

# 316 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Umm--

# 317 MR. COCHRAN:

Do you recognize that?

# 318 MR. HEIDSTRA:

This is the condo.

# 319 MR. COCHRAN:

When you say "This is the condo," you are pointing toward--

# 320 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Nicole's condo.

# 321 MR. COCHRAN:

--Miss Nicole Brown Simpson's condo?

# 322 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 323 MR. COCHRAN:

Okay. Show me where Bundy is. Show the jury where Bundy is.

# 324 MR. HEIDSTRA:

This is Bundy, (Indicating).

# 325 MR. COCHRAN:

He is indicating a street, your Honor, a north/south street.

# 326 THE COURT:

Yes.

# 327 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 328 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. You pointed to a condo on the west side of Bundy?

# 329 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 330 MR. COCHRAN:

Show us, if you can, on this photograph, the right side where you were and the approximate area where you were.

# 331 MR. HEIDSTRA:

It must have been down here, (Indicating).

# 332 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. So you are at an area off the aerial photograph; is that correct?

# 333 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, right.

# 334 MR. COCHRAN:

To the right?

# 335 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, here, (Indicating).

# 336 MR. COCHRAN:

You told us because of the fear for your dog you then took another route and talked about an alleyway; is that correct?

# 337 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Exactly, yeah.

# 338 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, can you point out on this exhibit for the jury the alleyway that you decided to take down?

# 339 MR. HEIDSTRA:

(Indicating).

# 340 MR. COCHRAN:

All right.

# 341 MR. HEIDSTRA:

It is here, here, (Indicating).

# 342 MR. COCHRAN:

Your Honor, the witness is referring to an alleyway that apparently runs parallel to Bundy.

# 343 MR. COCHRAN:

Is that correct?

# 344 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Exactly.

# 345 THE COURT:

Yes, it is. The foreground of the photograph to the right on Defense 1239.

# 346 MR. COCHRAN:

Thank you, your Honor.

# 347 MR. COCHRAN:

And that is the route that you started to take, that route?

# 348 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Exactly, yeah.

# 349 MR. COCHRAN:

Okay. You can resume your seat now.

# 350 (Witness complies.)

# 351 THE COURT:

Mr. Cochran, I would suggest that you show that to the jurors down at the end.

# 352 MR. COCHRAN:

Certainly, your Honor.

# 353 THE COURT:

Since it is hard to see the detail, especially the alley.

# 354 MR. COCHRAN:

Thank you very kindly. 1239.

# 355 (The exhibit was displayed to the jury.)

# 356 MR. COCHRAN:

May I demonstrate the area he was talking about, your Honor?

# 357 THE COURT:

Nope.

# 358 MR. COCHRAN:

May he step down and demonstrate?

# 359 THE COURT:

He has already done it.

# 360 MR. COCHRAN:

I mean for the jurors down here.

# 361 THE COURT:

Yes. All right. You can ask him to step down.

# 362 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Mr. Heidstra, would you step down and demonstrate for the jurors on this end with your pointer the area and the route that you took when you went on this alleyway parallel to Bundy.

# 363 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Uh-huh. It doesn't show in the picture but I was here, (Indicating), on the corner of Gorham and Bundy. I went back into the alley here, parallel to Bundy into the alley, back on Dorothy Street.

# 364 MR. COCHRAN:

For the record, your Honor, he has indicated that the first point where he was was kind of to the right of the diagram and near what would be the fork in the road at Bundy and Gorham.

# 365 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 366 MR. COCHRAN:

He then went in an alleyway that runs parallel to Bundy.

# 367 MR. COCHRAN:

Is that correct, sir?

# 368 THE COURT:

Yes. Thank you.

# 369 MR. COCHRAN:

For the jurors here, would you point to us the approximate location of Nicole Brown Simpson's condo, as you recall it?

# 370 MR. HEIDSTRA:

It is this one, (Indicating).

# 371 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Pointing to a condo and that is on the west side of Bundy; is that correct?

# 372 THE COURT:

All right. Mr. Cochran, we are going to have to resume the witness stand because the witness is very difficult to hear.

# 373 MR. COCHRAN:

Okay.

# 374 THE COURT:

Especially for the court reporter.

# 375 THE COURT:

All right. Let's resume the witness stand.

# 376 MR. COCHRAN:

Let's resume your seat.

# 377 (Witness complies.)

# 378 MR. COCHRAN:

I want you to keep your voice up and talk directly into the microphone.

# 379 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Okay.

# 380 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, so that we are clear, Nicole Brown Simpson's condo, if you can point to it again, and show us approximately where you believe it is?

# 381 MR. HEIDSTRA:

There, (Indicating).

# 382 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. He is pointing to a residence on the west side of Bundy, your Honor, and he is pointing to it on Defendant's 1239.

# 383 THE COURT:

Yes. It appears to be the residence that is just to the south of the parked car that is to the left of Bundy on the west side of that street.

# 384 MR. COCHRAN:

Thank you, your Honor.

# 385 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, prior to June 12th of 1994, had you walked that location on many occasions?

# 386 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Oh, yes, many times, many times.

# 387 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. So now at any rate, you described for us hearing this noise which you believe was the barking from the Akita at about 10:35?

# 388 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Around 10:35.

# 389 MR. COCHRAN:

Okay. Describe for us what you did at that point, sir.

# 390 MR. HEIDSTRA:

At that point I stopped immediately with my dogs, like I said, because I was afraid for my dogs, for the Akita. He sounded panicking and he sounded very close on the street almost, so I turned around with my dogs and says we can't go further any more so I--so I turned around.

# 391 MR. COCHRAN:

I think the court reporter is having trouble. You said the sound didn't bother your dogs, thank God?

# 392 MR. HEIDSTRA:

They didn't bark back when they heard the Akita.

# 393 MR. COCHRAN:

Your dogs didn't bark?

# 394 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, they were quiet.

# 395 MR. COCHRAN:

After your dogs didn't bark, what did do you then, sir?

# 396 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I decided to turn around and not go any further there.

# 397 MR. COCHRAN:

In which direction did you go at that point?

# 398 THE COURT:

Counsel, I think we have already gone through this. He has already gotten to the point where he was going in the alley.

# 399 MR. COCHRAN:

I'm trying get back in the alley, yes.

# 400 MR. COCHRAN:

You are going down the alley; is that correct?

# 401 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I went up in the alley there to high level ground.

# 402 MR. COCHRAN:

In the alley, you are now going at that point southbound in the alley; is that right?

# 403 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, right.

# 404 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And as you go southbound in the alley, do you go a distance and do you hear something else at some point?

# 405 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Well, I--the Akita never stopped barking. It was hysterical barking all the time and never stopped until I reached the middle of the alley.

# 406 MR. COCHRAN:

All right.

# 407 MR. HEIDSTRA:

In the middle.

# 408 MR. COCHRAN:

Okay. Show us about where you were, the middle of the alley. Point to that.

# 409 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah. Just opposite Nicole's. It is about the middle here, (Indicating).

# 410 MR. COCHRAN:

All right.

# 411 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Opposite Nicole's condo.

# 412 MR. COCHRAN:

Okay. When you say "Nicole" you are talking about Nicole Brown Simpson, right?

# 413 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 414 MR. COCHRAN:

So your Honor, what he has done is drawn a line basically I guess perpendicular to where he believes the condo is toward the alleyway.

# 415 THE COURT:

Yes.

# 416 MR. COCHRAN:

And when you get to that location in the alley--which you say is about halfway through the alley?

# 417 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, in the middle of the alley.

# 418 MR. COCHRAN:

Middle of the alley?

# 419 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 420 MR. COCHRAN:

What happens at that point?

# 421 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Well, I stood there listening to the commotion of the dog, the Akita.

# 422 MR. COCHRAN:

All right.

# 423 MR. HEIDSTRA:

For a minute or so, more than a minute, and I heard also another dog started to bark, a little black dog that the lady has in the alley. The dog started to bark.

# 424 MR. COCHRAN:

A second dog starts barking?

# 425 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Oh, yeah. Crazy, too.

# 426 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Now, where is the--if you can show us, the little black dog that starts to bark, where does that dog live?

# 427 MR. HEIDSTRA:

This one live in this house here, (Indicating). This here, (Indicating).

# 428 MR. COCHRAN:

Your Honor, again he is pointing to a house.

# 429 MR. HEIDSTRA:

This house, (Indicating).

# 430 THE COURT:

Appears to be the house that is across the street from Nicole Brown Simpson's condo?

# 431 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, exactly.

# 432 MR. COCHRAN:

That is the house that is--

# 433 THE COURT:

On the east side of Bundy.

# 434 MR. COCHRAN:

East side of Bundy.

# 435 MR. COCHRAN:

It is right near the area where you stopped in the alley?

# 436 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Exactly.

# 437 MR. COCHRAN:

You see this little black dog at that point?

# 438 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I didn't see him, no, but I heard him bark.

# 439 MR. COCHRAN:

You knew this dog from before?

# 440 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I have seen him before.

# 441 MR. COCHRAN:

You now hear two dogs barking, right, from that location?

# 442 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Like crazy.

# 443 MR. COCHRAN:

Your dogs weren't barking?

# 444 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, no, they were alert but not barking.

# 445 MR. COCHRAN:

They what?

# 446 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Alert.

# 447 MR. COCHRAN:

What time is it by this time now when you now hear at least two dogs barking? Give us your time, the best time that you--

# 448 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Around 10:40 or something.

# 449 MR. COCHRAN:

About 10:40 P.M.?

# 450 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 451 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And at that point you are in the alley and it is 10:40 on June 12th, 1994. What happens next?

# 452 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Well, like I said, I was listening to the dogs and all of a sudden I heard two voices.

# 453 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. You heard two voices?

# 454 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 455 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. What did you hear these two voices say?

# 456 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Well, the first one I heard was a clear male young adult voice that said, "Hey, hey, hey."

KEY QUOTE

# 457 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Had you ever heard that voice before?

# 458 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, no, no, just from nowhere.

# 459 MR. COCHRAN:

You heard this voice say, "Hey, hey, hey"?

# 460 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Three times, yes.

# 461 MR. COCHRAN:

And where were you again? I want you to point to 1239 at the point that you heard this voice say, "Hey, hey, hey."

# 462 MR. HEIDSTRA:

That was there, just here, but--by this house here, (Indicating).

# 463 MR. COCHRAN:

By the same house you referred to earlier?

# 464 MR. HEIDSTRA:

About here. I stood here, (Indicating).

# 465 MR. COCHRAN:

You are in the alleyway?

# 466 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 467 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. All right. And at the time you hear this sound, "Hey, hey, hey," what happens after that, Mr. Heidstra?

# 468 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I heard another voice fast talking back to him, to the person who said, "Hey, hey, hey."

# 469 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you hear what the other voice said?

# 470 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Could never hear. The dogs were barking so loud I couldn't hear nothing.

# 471 MR. COCHRAN:

So you heard another voice after the first voice yell, "Hey, hey, hey"; is that correct?

# 472 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, right, right.

# 473 MR. COCHRAN:

But you couldn't make it out?

# 474 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, nothing.

# 475 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. How long did the second voice continue, if you know?

# 476 MR. HEIDSTRA:

A few seconds, very short, very short.

# 477 MR. COCHRAN:

Very short?

# 478 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Very short time.

# 479 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Are you still at the same location?

# 480 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 481 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. What happened next?

# 482 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Next time I heard just it was about fifteen seconds that argument I guess sounded like an argument two men talking to each other.

KEY QUOTE

# 483 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Let me back up. The--you thought that you heard an argument at that point?

# 484 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Sounded like an argument, yes.

# 485 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. The argument sounded like it was between two men?

# 486 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, two male voices.

# 487 MR. COCHRAN:

Two male voices?

# 488 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 489 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And could you discern or could you make out any other words spoken during this argument at all, Mr. Heidstra?

# 490 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Not at all. Not at all. Not at all.

# 491 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. So you then, after you heard the "Hey, hey, hey," and then the response, the argument, what happened after that?

# 492 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Then I heard a gate slamming bang.

# 493 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. How many times did you hear a gate slam? Once, twice, how many times?

# 494 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Once, just once.

# 495 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. You heard a gate slam?

# 496 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 497 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And could you see anything at this point?

# 498 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, no, no, I couldn't see anything.

# 499 MR. COCHRAN:

But you heard the gate slam?

# 500 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 501 MR. COCHRAN:

And after you heard the gate slam what did you hear next?

# 502 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Nothing any more.

# 503 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Was the--you heard no more voices?

# 504 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Nothing, nothing.

# 505 MR. COCHRAN:

And by the time the gate slammed, what time was it at that time, Mr. Heidstra?

# 506 MR. HEIDSTRA:

About a round 10:40 I would say, something like that, 10:40, about that time.

# 507 MR. COCHRAN:

About 10:30, thereabouts?

# 508 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I would say so, 10:40.

# 509 MR. COCHRAN:

And the gate, did it sound like a metal gate?

# 510 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Oh, yes. I recognized the gate immediately. I recognize the gate from the Akita--where the Akita is behind all the time.

# 511 MR. COCHRAN:

You heard what sounded like a metal gate?

# 512 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 513 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. After you heard this metal gate and you heard the "Hey, hey, hey," and this other voice, what did you next hear, if anything?

# 514 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I heard, well, the dog still barking, of course. He never stopped barking.

# 515 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. So the dog continued to bark, the dog you believe was the Akita?

# 516 MR. HEIDSTRA:

And that little dog, plus that little dog.

# 517 MR. COCHRAN:

The little black dog?

# 518 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Both of them, yes.

# 519 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Did you then at that point continue southbound in the alleyway? Did you continue and move from your location at some point?

# 520 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right, right, right, right, right.

# 521 MR. COCHRAN:

You were--and where did you go as you moved southbound in the alley? Which direction did you go?

# 522 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Well, I moved out of the alley into Dorothy.

# 523 MR. COCHRAN:

Okay. Let me take this down at this point and put the other one back up. This is 1239, your Honor.

# 524 THE COURT:

Yes.

# 525 MR. COCHRAN:

I will place that in the lower right-hand corner.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (4)

Robert Heidstra

The first one I heard was a clear male young adult voice that said, 'Hey, hey, hey.'

Places two male voices near Nicole Brown Simpson's condo around 10:40 PM, potentially undercutting prosecution timeline or implicating a second person at the scene.

Robert Heidstra

Next time I heard just it was about fifteen seconds that argument I guess sounded like an argument two men talking to each other.

Corroborates presence of two individuals at or near the crime scene, not one — a key defense point.

Robert Heidstra

Oh, yeah. I recognize him right away... That is the Akita from Nicole's condo.

Anchors his location and the timing of the dog's panicked barking to the murder scene.

Robert Heidstra

I heard a gate slamming bang... I recognized the gate immediately. I recognize the gate from the Akita — where the Akita is behind all the time.

Places a specific sonic event — a gate slam — near Nicole's property at approximately 10:40 PM, suggesting activity at the crime scene at that moment.

Evidence (2)

People's 26

Street diagram of the area around Bundy Drive and Dorothy Street, used to trace Heidstra's walking route

Witness stepped down and indicated his residence, route, and key locations on the diagram

Defendant's 1239

Posterboard with two aerial photographs of the Bundy Drive area, including Nicole Brown Simpson's condo and the parallel alley

Introduced and displayed to jury; witness identified condo, alley route, and position where he heard voices

Notable Exchanges (3)

Johnnie Cochran•Robert Heidstra

Extended back-and-forth establishing the precise walking route and timing — Dorothy to Westgate to Gorham to Bundy curve — culminating in the 10:35 PM arrival and dog-barking event. Required repeated clarifications due to Heidstra's accent and soft voice.

methodical

Lance A. Ito•Johnnie Cochran

Judge cuts off Cochran's extended questioning about the breeds and ages of Heidstra's dogs, prompting Cochran to admit he was 'intrigued' and move on.

light

Robert Heidstra•Johnnie Cochran

Heidstra describes hearing a 'clear male young adult voice' say 'Hey, hey, hey' three times, followed by a second voice responding — together sounding like an argument between two men — before a metal gate slammed.

revealing

Light Moments (3)

Johnnie Cochran

Cochran jokes that Heidstra has 'some kind of United Nations dogs' after learning he owns a Hungarian Puli and a Bearded Collie.

Lance A. Ito

Judge Ito intervenes to stop Cochran's digression into the dogs' breeds and ages: 'Mr. Cochran, the fact that he has got two medium-sized dogs, he is going out to walk—'

Johnnie Cochran

Cochran admits after the judge's interruption: 'I was just intrigued by these dogs, your Honor. Thank you. I will move on. Still trying to get the names in my mind.'

Witness Demeanor

Witness acknowledged being nervous ('A little bit') — first time testifying in court

Soft-spoken throughout; judge and Cochran repeatedly asked him to speak up and lean into microphone

French-accented English caused repeated clarification requests and some court reporter difficulty

Answered many questions with short, direct responses; occasionally anticipated questions before Cochran finished asking

Objections

3 objections (1 sustained, 2 overruled)

Proceeding 6714 • 525 utterances • Defense witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103