Yes. Thank you very kindly, your Honor. Our next witness, your Honor, is Miss Denise Pilnak. Miss Pilnak, come forward, please.

Denise Pilnak, called as a witness by the Defendant, was sworn and testified as follows:

All right. Ma'am, could you stand right there, please, and face the clerk.

Raise your right hand, please. You do solemnly swear that the testimony you may give in the cause now pending before this Court shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

I do.

Please have a seat on the witness stand and state and spell your first and last names for the record.

Denise Pilnak, D-E-N-I-S-E P-I-L-N-A-K.

Thank you.

Mr. Cochran.

Pull the microphone towards you a little bit, Miss Pilnak.

Yes.

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. COCHRAN

Good afternoon, Miss Pilnak.

Good afternoon.

Miss Pilnak, do you presently reside in the 900 block of south Bundy? I won't give your exact address.

Yes.

And back in the month of June of 1994, did you live in the 900 block of south Bundy?

Yes.

What line of work are you generally in, Miss Pilnak?

I've been in the high tech publishing business for about the last 10 years.

All right. Now, I'd like to direct your attention back to the date of June 12th of 1994. Do you recall that particular day?

Yes, I do.

And was that a Sunday?

Yes.

And as a result of your work in the publishing field, have you--do you have any specific--strike that. As a result of your work in the publishing field, are you kind of a stickler for time?

I've been in sales for 20 years. So I have to account for my time.

And so you're kind of used to accounting for your time?

Yes, sir.

Now, with regard to that date, June 12th, 1994, do you know the various things you did on that particular date?

Yes, I do.

And let's start with the morning. What were you doing at about 8:30 that morning?

I had to go over to my girlfriend's house and feed her dog. She was out of town.

All right. And what did you do after you fed your girlfriend's dog?

I met a bunch of friends. We meet every Sunday at 9:00 o'clock and run, and I ran 11 miles.

All right. You're a runner, are you?

Long distance, yes.

And you ran 11 miles that Sunday?

Uh-huh.

You've got to answer out--you've got to say yes or no.

Yes.

All right. And do you run most days or many days?

Every day.

Did you know who Miss Nicole Brown Simpson was?

Yes, I did.

And you knew where she lived prior to June 12th, 1994?

No, I didn't.

How did you know who she was before that?

I used to see her running with her girlfriend Cora several times a week. But I just knew her--just living in Brentwood, you know everyone.

All right. And you've lived in Brentwood for a period of time, have you?

Yes, I have.

Now, that--let's shift to the afternoon. We won't go through your entire day. Let's shift to the afternoon. What were you doing around 5:30 on that day?

Went to church.

Is that a church in that area?

St. Martins of tours on Sunset.

All right. And after that, did you have occasion to do something else?

Yes. My mother was in from the midwest with her husband and they were staying at my sister's. They came over and we ended up having dinner.

All right. And you took them to some restaurant for dinner?

Yes. To Louise's.

And that's Louise's located where?

It's on San Vicente. I don't know what the little side street is. It's right across from Toscana.

All right. Now, with regard to the times that evening, what time did you finish dinner at Louise's, if you know and what time did you arrive back home?

Umm, we finished dinner sometime around--close to 9:30 and got home just a couple minutes after. It only takes about 3 minutes.

To get home from Louise's?

Yes.

All right. What street is Louise's on if you recall?

It is on San Vicente Boulevard.

All right. Now, you then returned home. Did you return home in the company of anyone else?

Yes.

And who was that?

My girlfriend was over, Judy Telander. She had joined us for dinner. She had been over all day.

So how many people went to dinner? Four?

Four.

It was Judy Telander, yourself, your mom and--

And her husband nick.

Nick. All right. Now, at some point after you returned home from dinner with Judy Telander, did your mom and nick have occasion to leave your residence on the 900 block of south Bundy?

Yes, they did.

Can you tell the jury and--the Court and jury about what time they left your residence that evening?

Umm, when they came back, they just came in for about five minutes. So it was around 9:45 to 10 to 10:00.

And they were going someplace at that time?

They were staying at my sister's house in Torrance. So they were driving back to her home.

Okay. Now, after they left, did you have occasion to see what time it was after that as you looked toward obtaining some messages from your machine?

Umm, I did look at the clock because my girlfriend had been over all day using my computer.

And again, now, what girlfriend are we talking about?

Judy Telander.

Okay. What time was that that you looked at the clock?

10:18.

All right. And are you sure it was that time?

For the record, your Honor, she has--

Do you have two watches on today?

Yeah. My running watch, which is very accurate, and my other watch which isn't.

All right. So you keep two watches at all times?

Well, not at all times. When it's real important.

All right. I appreciate your being on time here today.

Yes.

Thank you. Now, you were about to tell us that your friend, Judy Telander, had been over pretty much all day using your computer. And so you had occasion to look at a clock or something to determine the time, and it was 10:18?

Yes.

Okay. What happened at 10:18, please?

Umm, Judy had been over all day and I noticed the digital time. I said--I said to her, "Judy, it's 10:18. You've been here all day and I'm going out of town in a couple days. You're going to have to leave." So--

Well, you said--let's see now. You said that she's a friend, right?

She's a friend.

You said that in a nice way?

In a nice way.

All right. So you said that, "You have to leave now," or, "It's time to go home," right?

Yeah. Well, "It's time to go home," and I said, "Let's just print out your report and you can look at it tomorrow, and any changes, I'd be happy to make tomorrow."

All right.

But I had things I had to get done.

Okay. I understand. Did you at that time assist her in printing out anything for her before she left?

Yes.

What did you print out for Judy Telander?

I printed out a letter that she had been working on all day, and actually it's two pages and then about two lines on the third page. And I printed out two copies. I wasn't sure if it was one or two. I think it was two.

All right. Did you give that to her?

Yes, I did.

All right. And so you parted company at about what time?

10:21.

All right. And again, you're pretty sure about that time?

Well, I retimed everything. My little speech to her took about 45 seconds and the printing out was a minute and 25 seconds for each three-page copy. So that's--that's right about 3 minutes.

All right. So after the fact, you went back and redid these things yourself; is that right?

Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Uh-huh means yes?

Yes. I'm sorry.

Okay. All right. So how did you--did you escort her out or tell us what you did when Judy Telander was leaving?

Whenever my girlfriends leave my home, I always turn off the porch light, stand on the porch, watch until they get in their car and take off. Then I make them call me when they get home just so we know they're safe.

All right.

And I did exactly that.

All right. Did you--with regard--let's back up for a moment. When your mom and nick left, did you see them outside also?

Yes, I did.

Okay. And did you make arrangements also for your mom to call when she got home?

I didn't ask my mother to call. I told her I'd call her later.

But you made arrangements for Judy Telander to call?

Yes.

Now, when you walked out and you're out on the porch with Judy Telander, can you describe for the jury the condition of Bundy drive that particular night, that Sunday evening?

All right. Now, what time is this that it's exceptionally quiet?

It was about--Judy and I were outside talking probably between 10:21 and about 10:25.

During that time, you were out on your porch; is that correct?

Yes.

And how long had you lived at that location at that point?

Umm, four years.

So in the four years you lived there, you had never heard Bundy so quiet; is that right?

Yes.

So that we're clear--I want to show you People's 26 for identification.

If I might approach, your Honor.

Yes.

And I'm going to give you a pointer and ask if you would familiarize yourself. And you've seen this diagram before; have you not?

Yes.

And I want to indicate to you and counsel that the red here is the Nicole Brown condo--Nicole Brown Simpson condo. And I want you to look--this is Dorothy and this would be Darlington (Indicating), and I would like for you to point and show the jury where you live approximately.

Right about--right in the middle of this block (Indicating).

All right.

On the east side.

All right. Your Honor, for the record, of People's 26, Miss Pilnak is indicating for the record she lives between Dorothy and Darlington on the east side of Bundy.

Is that correct?

Yes.

And so that we're clear, you--have you had occasion to measure the distance from the corner there of Dorothy to your residence?

It's about 75 yards.

All right. So you know generally where you are at that location?

I'm a distance runner.

Okay. And so you're on the east side of the street, right?

Yes.

And so your porch is there where you and Judy Telander stood before she left; is that correct?

Yes.

Okay. And at that time, it was about 10:25 P.M. on June 12th, 1994, right?

Yes.

And it was quieter than you could ever remember it; is that correct?

Yes.

Do you remember seeing any people walking around at that point?

No.

See people walking? Do you remember seeing anybody walking dogs at that point?

No.

Do you remember hearing any dogs barking at that point at 10:25?

No.

All right. Now, after you saw Judy Telander off, did you have occasion to come back in and do something at that time at about 10:25 P.M.?

Umm, the minute Judy left, I picked up the telephone and called my mother to make sure she got home safely.

Now, your mother had left I recall at about 9:45 to 9:50?

Yes.

And she had to go to Gardena or Torrance or something?

Torrance. Uh-huh.

Excuse me just a second. Miss Pilnak, if you would, would you allow the attorney to finish asking you the question completely before you start to answer. The court reporter can only take down one person at a time.

Yes. Sorry.

Thank you.

Thank you, your Honor.

Mr. Cochran.

So let me just--I'll try to restate it, your Honor.

As I understand your testimony, your mom and nick had left at something like 9:45 to 9:50; is that correct?

Yes.

And after Judy Telander left, you then called your mom at some location; is that correct?

Yes.

Okay. And what time was it that you called your mother?

10:25.

And you have provided us with a phone bill which I would like to show to counsel, mark it as our next exhibit.

Counsel has it, your Honor. May I mark this Defendant's next in order, your Honor?

1237.

We'll mark this as Defendant's exhibit 1237.

And I want to approach you, Miss Pilnak, and I want to ask you what Defendant's 1237 is. Will you look at that, please?

Yes.

Okay. Tell us--tell the jury what that is.

That's my phone bill.

All right. That's your phone bill? And what's the date of that phone bill?

The date of the phone bill--well, the bill date is July 10th, but it includes calls from June 10th through June 15th on this page.

You have a phone call about June 12th, 1994 at about 10:25 P.M.?

Yes, I do.

And where is that call to?

It's to my sister's house.

Is that where your mom was?

Yes.

And did you connect with your mom that she made it?

Yes, I did.

And so this phone bill indicates the time that you called your mother at 10:25 P.M., says Gardena on it with a phone number; is that correct?

Yes.

You talked to her for about three minutes, did you?

Yes.

All right. Now, I'm not going to put this on the elmo, your Honor, because I don't want to block out all these numbers.

But this is an accurate copy of your phone bill that you received after June 12th, 1994; is that right?

Yes.

The one you got on July 10th?

Yes.

Okay. Is that right? So that reflects the fact that for about three minutes, is that accurate, that you talked to your mom?

Objection. Leading.

Sustained.

Well, let me rephrase that, your Honor.

Look at that phone bill and tell us how long you talked at 10:25 on the phone.

Three minutes.

And is that about accurate?

Yes.

All right. And after that--now, that would make it about 10:28; is that correct?

Yes.

All right. And tell us then what happened after you placed this phone call to your mother.

Well, actually while I was speaking with my mother--it was a portable phone--I washed four glasses and put them away, crystal glasses, and I washed my face, brushed my teeth, flossed, and--and then I went into the kitchen to bring a bunch of newspapers and reading material into my bedroom and put those in the bedroom and then I went back into the bathroom.

All right. Now, these--you have a habit about collecting reading materials and keeping papers until you throw them away?

I don't throw anything away until I've read it.

All right. So you collected up--what did you do? You collected up a number of papers and things?

Yes.

All right. And ultimately, you took those things and gathered them up and you took them someplace in your house?

Yes. Into my bedroom because I--

All right. Now, up to that time, ma'am, up to the time that you picked these newspapers up and you brushed your teeth and flossed and everything, had you heard any loud dogs barking at that time?

No.

It was still very quiet out?

I wasn't outside, but it was--I didn't hear any noises from outside.

You couldn't hear anything from inside; is that correct?

Correct.

When you had been out on your porch and Judy Telander had left, it had been very, very quiet?

Extremely quiet.

All right. Now, at some point thereafter, did you hear a dog or dogs start barking?

When I went back into the bathroom, I was drying my hands and I heard a dog barking.

All right. And to the best of your recollection, what time was that that you heard this dog barking at that point, your best recollection?

About 10:35.

All right. Nearest you can tell, that was the earliest it was?

It could be 10:33 because I've retimed those activities.

All right. Between 10:30, 10:35; is that correct?

Yes.

All right. And you never came outside to check that dog, did you?

No.

All right. You just heard the dog barking?

Yes.

And did they--did you hear this sound of barking, did it continue for a period of time?

It continued for a long time.

All right. Do you recall what time you went to sleep that night?

Yes.

What time did you approximately fall off to sleep?

Well, I closed the lights off at 12:30 A.M.

All right. You closed the lights off at 12:30. How soon after that did you go to sleep, if you know?

Probably right afterward.

All right. And at some point, did the dog--this dog stop barking?

Yes.

All right. Were you able to tell whether or not during that time frame of about 10:35 until you turned the lights off at 12:30, you ever heard more than one dog barking?

I'm not sure. I heard one continuous bark for a very long time.

All right. You can't tell us whether or not it was one dog or a different dog or whatever, but you heard a continuous bark; is that correct?

Yes.

All right. And so when you finally got ready to fall asleep, did the dog--did the barking stop at some point?

The barking had stopped.

And that would have been at about 12:30 the barking stopped?

No. It had stopped before then.

Okay. Do you know when it had stopped approximately?

Approximately--it was a long time. I would have guessed that it--from the time it started barking, it had to be about 45 minutes or so. But I don't know precisely.

All right. You didn't write anything down about that, did you?

No. That I didn't.

All right. Now, with regard to the time of 10:15, at which time you've indicated you were still in your house, did you hear a dog barking at all at that time?

No.

And when you came out on that porch with Judy Telander--and that was I think you've told us between 10:21 and 10:25--you didn't hear any dogs barking at that time, did you?

No. We commented on how quiet it was.

When you say "We," you're talking about you and Judy?

Judy and I commented.

Now, in connection with this, do you know and are you acquainted with a man by the name of Pablo Fenjves?

Yes, I am.

And how do you know who he is?

He's another San Vicente runner.

All right. He's a person that runs in that general area with you?

Yes.

And did you have occasion to see him a short time after he testified in this trial, in this case?

I saw him the following day after the preliminary hearing.

All right. Had he testified at the preliminary hearing?

Yes.

And with regard to his testimony, did you have a conversation with him?

Yes, I did.

Did that conversation concern the time that the dog started barking on that particular night?

Yes.

Did you tell him that the dogs--

Objection. Hearsay.

Well, I haven't finished the question, your Honor.

"Did you tell him."

Sustained, the way it's phrased.

Well, let me see if I can phrase it another way.

Did you have occasion to discuss with him the time that you heard the dogs bark--start barking that night or the dog start barking that night?

Objection. Hearsay.

Overruled.

Yes.

All right. And what did you tell him in that regard?

Objection. Hearsay.

State of mind.

Sustained.

State of mind.

Sustained. It's irrelevant.

All right. With regard to--did you--you heard his testimony at the preliminary hearing?

Yes.

Did you agree with him as to what time the dog start barking that night?

No.

Objection. Argumentative, irrelevant.

Overruled.

Can I get your answer?

She said no.

And did you talk to him about that?

Yes.

And where did that conversation take place?

Umm, in front of his condominium. I was coming back from a run.

And how long did that conversation last?

Probably about 10 minutes, 5 or 10 minutes.

And did he participate in the conversation at all?

Yes.

When was the last time you saw Mr. Pablo Fenjves?

This morning at 8:06 A.M.

Did you have occasion at that time to talk about the same subject again just generally?

Yes.

About the time the dogs started barking back then?

Yes.

Is there anything he said to you at any time change your mind as to what time you heard the dogs start barking?

No.

Objection. Irrelevant, argumentative.

Overruled.

Now, Miss Pilnak, at some time on June 13th, which I believe was a Monday, did you have occasion to go running on that Monday morning?

Yes.

And was that your regular Monday morning run?

Yes.

And you have some records today that you can show us what time you left home to go running that day also?

I usually--well, I have a phone bill. But I usually meet someone at a certain time and we have a specific run.

What time is that?

Usually at about 8:30.

All right. And on that date, have you looked at some records that you had to determine whether or not you got a call right before you started to run?

Yes.

All right. And after that, after the phone call, you then went out running?

Yes. I did.

Objection. All leading, your Honor.

Overruled. It's foundational at this time.

Foundational in fact. That's right, your Honor.

When you came out of the house on that Monday morning, did you see anything unusual in and about Bundy in that location?

Yes. There was yellow tape all around the crime area.

All right. And what time was that you made that observation?

It's right about 8:30.

Had you been aware of anything prior to that time at all?

No.

And when you saw this yellow tape, you didn't have any idea what had happened, what had taken place, did you?

No.

Did you then go on a run?

I did, but after I asked about what was happening in the neighborhood.

All right. You inquired about what was going on, right?

Yes.

All right. And did you ascertain or find out that there had been some murders in your neighborhood?

Yes. I was told there was a double homicide.

At that time, you didn't know who was involved, did you?

No.

You then went on your run?

Yes.

And at some point, you returned and came back from your run; is that correct?

Yes.

Do you recall approximately what time it was that you got back?

Umm, probably about 10:00 o'clock or a little bit before 10:00.

All right. And after you got back home after a little bit before 10:00 o'clock on Monday morning, June 13th, did you have occasion to talk to one or two police officers at some point?

Yes.

And at that time, were you--was--did you become aware of who one of the victims was of the homicide?

It was prior to them coming over.

Before that?

Yes.

And you became aware that Miss Nicole Brown Simpson was one of the victims?

Yes.

And that was very upsetting to you; was it not?

Very upsetting.

And when you talked to the police--had they--did they come to your home?

Yes.

And it was a short time after you returned from your run and after you had found out that Nicole Brown Simpson had been one of the victims of the homicide; is that right?

Yes.

When you talked to the police officer, did you indicate to them the approximate time that you thought the dogs had started barking the night before?

Sounds awfully leading to me.

All right. Let me see if I can restate it, your Honor.

When you talked to the police, did you talk at all about dogs barking?

Yes.

Do you recall what you said at that time to the police, if anything?

All right. Was that accurate?

No.

All right. Did you at some time later determine that wasn't accurate?

Yes. Later that day.

All right. And how did you make that determination?

Well, I--I just thought back about the events of the night, what had happened, and it was very easy to figure, you know, exactly what time I heard the dogs barking.

All right. So before that date was out, before June 13th, 1994, were you aware that 11:00 or 11:30 was not a correct time?

Yes.

Now, after that of course, you got your phone bill and various other things happened; is that correct?

Yes.

Objection. Leading.

Sustained.

Foundational.

At some point later in time, did you ever at any point send a correcting fax or letter to any detectives in this case?

Yes, I did.

And when you did that, when was that approximately? Was that--do you know when that was?

It was the day the trial began.

All right. The day this trial began; is that correct?

Yes.

And at that time, you sent--what did you do?

Umm, I called the District Attorney's office and I believe I ended up speaking with Detective Vannatter.

All right.

After making several calls, you know, just to get to the right person.

All right. And after you talked to Detective Vannatter, did you--

I faxed him an itinerary of that day.

All right. You faxed him an itinerary of everything you did that day?

Yes.

The date of June 12th, 1994?

Yes.

Spelling out all the things we've talked about here and some others that aren't--we haven't talked about?

Yes.

And did you tell him at that time what time the dogs--the dog had started barking on June 12th in the evening hours?

Yes, I did.

And what time was that, Miss Pilnak?

About 10:35.

Are you sure about that?

Again, it could be between 10:33 and 10:35. Yes.

But you're sure about that?

Yes.

And you have come here today pursuant to a subpoena to testify; is that correct?

Yes.

And have you told us the truth here today about your testimony?

Yes, I have.

You're not here to prefer one side or the other, are you?

No. Just justice.

Just what?

Justice.

Thank you very kindly. Nothing further at this point, your Honor.