Cross-examination of Ellen Aaronson (part 1)

📄 Cross-examination of Ellen Aaronson (part 1) — Tuesday, July 11, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\JUL\11\CROSS-EXAMINATION-OF-ELLEN-AAR.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 112 of 167

◀ Direct examination of Ellen Aaronson (afternoon) Cross-examination of Ellen Aaronson (part 2) ▶

Witness: Ellen Aaronson
Examiner: Marcia Clark
Called by: Defense • Date: Tuesday, July 11, 1995 • Utterances: 363

Marcia Clark cross-examined Ellen Aaronson, a defense alibi witness who dined at Mezzaluna with Danny Mandel on the night of the murders. Clark methodically attacked the reliability of Aaronson's timeline testimony — she now claims she checked her watch at 9:50 PM in the restaurant, but her first police statement reflected that she passed the crime scene location at 11:00 PM. Clark also surfaced contradictions in dates, the route taken home, and the witness's coordination with both Mandel and defense counsel.

# 1 THE COURT:

Miss Clark.

# 2 MS. CLARK:

Thank you, your Honor.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. CLARK

# 3 MS. CLARK:

Good afternoon, Miss Aaronson.

# 4 MS. AARONSON:

Good afternoon.

# 5 MS. CLARK:

I just had to ask you one question. That credit card receipt that shows the amount for 47.50?

# 6 MS. AARONSON:

Uh-huh.

# 7 MS. CLARK:

Close to that. 47.40 or something?

# 8 MS. AARONSON:

Right.

# 9 MS. CLARK:

You guys didn't have anything to drink, right? You just had dinner?

# 10 MS. AARONSON:

No alcohol.

# 11 MS. CLARK:

Right. You just had dinner, just food?

# 12 MS. AARONSON:

Cappuccino afterwards.

# 13 MS. CLARK:

Okay. And you had no dessert?

# 14 MS. AARONSON:

Not that I recall.

# 15 MS. CLARK:

And that's 47.40?

# 16 MS. AARONSON:

I don't know the prices of the meal, but I know what I ate.

# 17 MS. CLARK:

Okay. Did that seem like a large amount to pay for just two dinners and a cappuccino?

# 18 MR. COCHRAN:

Object, your Honor. If you go out to dinner--object.

# 19 MS. CLARK:

Well, you know, I don't eat at the Red Star restaurants maybe.

# 20 THE COURT:

Overruled. Overruled.

# 21 MS. CLARK:

Did that seem--did that seem kind of expensive?

# 22 MS. AARONSON:

I--

# 23 THE COURT:

Wait. Wait, wait, wait. Miss Aaronson, would you please allow the wit--the attorney to complete asking you the question before you start to answer.

# 24 MS. AARONSON:

I'm sorry. I thought I was answering the question that you already asked.

# 25 THE COURT:

Miss Clark, ask another question.

# 26 MS. CLARK:

Yes. Did they seem expensive to you for just food and cappuccino?

# 27 MS. AARONSON:

I didn't look at the whole bill. I just know the bill came and saw the bill from a distance as it was sitting--as if it's at this distance right now (Indicating).

# 28 MS. CLARK:

Okay. Looking at it now, does that seem like a lot of money to pay for two dinners and cappuccino?

# 29 MR. COCHRAN:

Irrelevant and immaterial.

# 30 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 31 MS. AARONSON:

I really don't--I can't even tell you if I think it's expensive or not. I don't know what the prices were of what we ordered.

# 32 MS. CLARK:

You didn't pay the bill, correct?

# 33 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 34 MS. CLARK:

Danny Mandel paid the bill?

# 35 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 36 MS. CLARK:

And when the bill came, you didn't look at it; is that correct?

# 37 MS. AARONSON:

I didn't study the bill.

# 38 MS. CLARK:

You saw the bill being put down on the table, right?

# 39 MS. AARONSON:

Right.

# 40 MS. CLARK:

You were not going to pay it, so you didn't study it, right?

# 41 MS. AARONSON:

Right.

# 42 MS. CLARK:

The waitress that was serving you, can you describe her for us?

# 43 MS. AARONSON:

She was about 5/5, light brown hair, ponytail, cute. That's all I can tell you about her.

# 44 MS. CLARK:

Dark skin?

# 45 MS. AARONSON:

No. Light skinned. Fair skinned.

# 46 MS. CLARK:

So if Danny said that she was dark skinned, he would be mistaken; is that correct?

# 47 MR. COCHRAN:

Object, your Honor.

# 48 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 49 MR. COCHRAN:

Misstates--

# 50 THE COURT:

Argumentative.

# 51 MS. CLARK:

Now, that waitress that you had, did you ever know her name?

# 52 MS. AARONSON:

No.

# 53 MS. CLARK:

Do you know her name now?

# 54 MS. AARONSON:

No.

# 55 MS. CLARK:

Had she ever waited on you before?

# 56 MS. AARONSON:

No.

# 57 MS. CLARK:

Or since?

# 58 MS. AARONSON:

No.

# 59 MS. CLARK:

You've been back to the Mezzaluna since then?

# 60 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 61 MS. CLARK:

On how many occasions?

# 62 MS. AARONSON:

Once.

# 63 MS. CLARK:

And when was that?

# 64 MS. AARONSON:

Two months ago.

# 65 MS. CLARK:

And that was the only occasion?

# 66 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 67 MS. CLARK:

Did you attempt to locate the waitress that had served you?

# 68 MS. AARONSON:

At that time?

# 69 MS. CLARK:

Yes.

# 70 MS. AARONSON:

No.

# 71 MS. CLARK:

Did you attempt to locate that waitress at some other time?

# 72 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 73 MS. CLARK:

And when was that?

# 74 MS. AARONSON:

When I called Mezzaluna and spoke with the manager.

# 75 MS. CLARK:

And what manager was that? What was the name of the manager you spoke to?

# 76 MS. AARONSON:

John--I don't know his last name.

# 77 MS. CLARK:

And--

# 78 MS. AARONSON:

He's no longer there.

# 79 MS. CLARK:

Okay. Did you ask him for the name of the waitress that served you that night?

# 80 MS. AARONSON:

I started to.

# 81 MS. CLARK:

But you stopped?

# 82 MS. AARONSON:

He pushed me off the phone because he had media there and didn't have the time to talk to me.

# 83 MS. CLARK:

And you didn't call back?

# 84 MS. AARONSON:

That was the second time I called there and no, I didn't call back.

# 85 MS. CLARK:

Now, the waitress, you say she left before you did?

# 86 MS. AARONSON:

I don't know if she left before I did. She said that her shift was ending and she wanted to leave.

# 87 MS. CLARK:

Were there any other waiters there when she took the bill from you for the last time?

# 88 MS. AARONSON:

There were other waiters in the restaurant? Correct.

# 89 MS. CLARK:

Who?

# 90 MS. AARONSON:

I don't know.

# 91 MS. CLARK:

Were there other men or other women there?

# 92 MS. AARONSON:

I couldn't tell you.

# 93 MS. CLARK:

How many of them were there?

# 94 MS. AARONSON:

I wouldn't know.

# 95 MS. CLARK:

When you entered the restaurant, you indicated it was very full?

# 96 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 97 MS. CLARK:

And when you left the restaurant, you indicated it wasn't quite as full?

# 98 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 99 MS. CLARK:

How many tables were seated at the time that you left?

# 100 MS. AARONSON:

At the time that I left?

# 101 MS. CLARK:

Right.

# 102 MS. AARONSON:

There looked like there were a few tables that were empty. I can't tell you how many.

# 103 MS. CLARK:

There were a few tables empty. That means that there were several tables full of people still?

# 104 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 105 MS. CLARK:

So if Danny Mandel said only one table of customers was left--

# 106 MR. COCHRAN:

Objection. Argumentative.

# 107 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 108 MR. COCHRAN:

Move to strike.

# 109 MS. CLARK:

And you're sure that there were several tables with customers still seated?

# 110 MR. COCHRAN:

Asked and answered.

# 111 THE COURT:

Overruled. You can answer.

# 112 MS. AARONSON:

Oh. Can you repeat the question, please?

# 113 MS. CLARK:

You're sure there were several tables of customers still seated at the time you left?

# 114 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 115 MS. CLARK:

After you left the restaurant, you walked out on Gorham; is that correct?

# 116 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 117 MS. CLARK:

And you said you stepped over that low railing?

# 118 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 119 MS. CLARK:

And when you did that, you proceeded down Gorham for a ways?

# 120 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 121 MS. CLARK:

Do you recall stopping at some point when Danny had to go back into the restaurant?

# 122 MS. AARONSON:

I don't recall that.

# 123 MS. CLARK:

You don't recall that. Does that mean it did not happen or you simply do not remember?

# 124 MS. AARONSON:

I do not recall. I simply do not remember.

# 125 MS. CLARK:

You do not remember whether he had to stop and go back into the restaurant?

# 126 MR. COCHRAN:

Asked and answered.

# 127 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 128 MS. AARONSON:

I do not remember.

# 129 MS. CLARK:

Do you remember what your waitress was wearing that night?

# 130 MS. AARONSON:

No.

# 131 MS. CLARK:

Do you remember what you were wearing that night?

# 132 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 133 MS. CLARK:

What were you wearing?

# 134 MS. AARONSON:

White jeans and a light blue jean shirt that has no sleeves that ties in the stomach with a blazer, that's a cream colored blazer that has stripes.

# 135 MS. CLARK:

And what was Danny wearing?

# 136 MS. AARONSON:

I have no idea.

# 137 MS. CLARK:

This was the first time you had ever gone out with him?

# 138 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 139 MS. CLARK:

Now, you indicate that you were asked by the waitress if she could close out the bill, correct?

# 140 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 141 MS. CLARK:

And you specifically remembered what time it was when she did that because you looked at your watch; is that right?

# 142 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 143 MS. CLARK:

And you're very certain as you sit here today that you looked at your watch and saw that it was 10 minutes of 10:00 when the waitress came to ask you to close out the bill; is that right?

# 144 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 145 MS. CLARK:

And you're as certain about that as everything else you've testified to today; is that correct?

# 146 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 147 MS. CLARK:

Earlier you told us, did you not, that you had a conversation with myself and Detective Vannatter in August; is that right?

# 148 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 149 MS. CLARK:

Then we had the lunch break and you spoke to Mr. Cochran; did you not?

# 150 MS. AARONSON:

Yes, I did.

# 151 MS. CLARK:

And he refreshed your recollection, didn't he, that you actually spoke to me and Detective Vannatter in September; isn't that right?

# 152 MS. AARONSON:

It is. I also said to you that it was around August.

# 153 MS. CLARK:

Now, you also testified that you had a conversation, your first conversation with the police in June, on June the 14th; is that right?

KEY QUOTE

# 154 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 155 MS. CLARK:

And you're absolutely certain of that, it was June 14th, correct?

# 156 MS. AARONSON:

I'm positive.

# 157 MS. CLARK:

You're positive.

# 158 MS. CLARK:

I have here a police report, your Honor. I ask that it be marked People's next in order, 494?

# 159 THE COURT:

495.

# 160 MS. CLARK:

495.

# 161 (Peo's 495 for id = police report)

# 162 MR. COCHRAN:

Can I see it, please?

# 163 (Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)

# 164 MS. CLARK:

Let me show you the statement now marked as People's 495.

# 165 MS. AARONSON:

Uh-huh.

# 166 MS. CLARK:

Do you recognize your name on that statement?

# 167 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 168 MS. CLARK:

And is that your name, Ellen Aaronson?

# 169 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 170 MS. CLARK:

And do you see a date and time for the interview of that statement?

# 171 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 172 MS. CLARK:

And what does it say?

# 173 MS. AARONSON:

June 15th.

# 174 MS. CLARK:

Now, let's talk about the statement for a minute, Miss Aaronson. I take it Mr. Cochran didn't show you this statement; is that correct?

# 175 MS. AARONSON:

No, he did. I said something to him that I know it was on a Tuesday that I spoke and that it wasn't Wednesday.

# 176 MS. CLARK:

And--

# 177 MS. AARONSON:

So I know what you're going to show me.

# 178 MS. CLARK:

Okay. So if the detective were to testify that he talked to you on June the 15th, he would be wrong?

# 179 MR. COCHRAN:

Objection, your Honor. Speculation, argumentative.

# 180 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 181 MS. CLARK:

So if the date says there, according to the detective, that he spoke to you on June the 15th at 10:40, he would be wrong. Is that what you're saying?

# 182 MR. COCHRAN:

Objection, your Honor. Same question.

# 183 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 184 MS. CLARK:

Is that date incorrect?

# 185 MS. AARONSON:

That date is incorrect.

# 186 MS. CLARK:

And you're certain that you are right?

# 187 MS. AARONSON:

Positive.

# 188 MS. CLARK:

Uh-huh. Okay. Let's look at this statement, Miss Aaronson. You have a monitor next to you. If it would be more comfortable, you can view it there.

# 189 THE COURT:

Phone number, counsel.

# 190 MS. AARONSON:

Thank you.

# 191 MS. CLARK:

I'll try and protect what little privacy you have left. We're just blocking off your--the identifying information. That was correct as of June, correct, of 1994?

# 192 MS. AARONSON:

Correct. May I ask you a question?

# 193 MS. CLARK:

Yes.

# 194 MS. AARONSON:

I can't tell--because you just moved the top. Is this the first statement or the second statement?

# 195 MS. CLARK:

This is your June 15th or what you say June 14th statement.

# 196 MS. AARONSON:

Fine.

# 197 MS. CLARK:

All right. Now, in this statement--let me read it with you.

# 198 MR. COCHRAN:

I object to the from, reading at this point.

# 199 THE COURT:

Overruled. Overruled.

# 200 MS. CLARK:

"Witness and her date walked to her apartment passing the crime scene location at 2300 hours, which is 11:00 P.M." Do you see that?

# 201 MS. AARONSON:

I'm looking for where you are. Yes, I see that.

# 202 MS. CLARK:

All right. And it then says: "Witness knows the time because she looked at her wristwatch and was surprised of the hour." Do you see that?

# 203 MS. AARONSON:

Uh-huh.

# 204 MS. CLARK:

Do you recall making those statements to Detective Kilcoyne?

# 205 MS. AARONSON:

I recall making those statements initially to Detective Kilcoyne. I also recall making a--talking to him and making a correction.

# 206 MS. CLARK:

Yes. And you later talked to him. I understand that, Miss Aaronson. But this was the first time you spoke to the police, correct?

# 207 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 208 MS. CLARK:

And this was only, well, according to you, one day, according to the police report, two days at the most after the event occurred, correct?

# 209 MS. AARONSON:

According to me, it's two days as well.

# 210 MS. CLARK:

Two days. Three days according to this report?

# 211 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 212 MS. CLARK:

And that at that point and time, your memory was very fresh as to what occurred that night; is that correct?

# 213 MS. AARONSON:

My memory was not that secure at that time and I told him that initially.

KEY QUOTE

# 214 MS. CLARK:

Do you see that in the report anywhere?

# 215 MS. AARONSON:

No. I also don't see a lot of things that we discussed.

# 216 MS. CLARK:

But you do see that you told him that you were sure of the time because you looked at your watch and were surprised at the hour. You did tell him that, didn't you?

# 217 MR. COCHRAN:

I object to the form. That's argumentative.

# 218 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 219 MS. AARONSON:

I told him that I looked at my watch at 10 to and I didn't know what the 10 to was. That's not verbatim what I said to him.

# 220 MS. CLARK:

According to this statement then, when you--when he writes here that you told him you passed by the crime scene location at 11:00 o'clock and that you knew the time because you looked at your watch and were surprised at the hour, that would be incorrect?

# 221 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 222 MS. CLARK:

So if Detective Kilcoyne came in and said that you told him that--

# 223 MR. COCHRAN:

Object to the form of this question again.

# 224 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 225 MS. CLARK:

You do admit, however, that you told him you passed by the crime scene at 11:00 o'clock?

# 226 MR. COCHRAN:

Asked and answered.

# 227 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 228 MS. AARONSON:

No, I don't admit that that's what I said. I said to him that I looked at my watch at 10 to. I thought it was 10 to 11:00. I didn't tell--and that was not when I was by the crime scene at all.

KEY QUOTE

# 229 MS. CLARK:

You think you told him that you were looking at your watch at 10 to 11:00 when you were still in the restaurant?

# 230 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 231 MS. CLARK:

And that you think you passed by the location at 11:00 o'clock?

# 232 MS. AARONSON:

No. I told him that I looked at my watch at 10 to and that we sat and talked for a little while and then walked by the apartment and didn't give him the time. I just knew that it was after that--at that point, I was thinking that it was around 10 to 11:00, so which means it had to be after 11:00 o'clock.

# 233 MS. CLARK:

That you walked by?

# 234 MS. AARONSON:

Right.

# 235 MS. CLARK:

Nevertheless, you indicated to him that you were certain then that you looked at your watch at the Mezzaluna at 10 to 11:00 and you were certain of that time because you looked at your watch. That's what you told him?

# 236 MS. AARONSON:

No. I told him that I was certain that it was 10 to, that I think it was 10 to 11:00, but I have to check, I'm not positive.

KEY QUOTE

# 237 MS. CLARK:

And when you say that you had to check, what you did was, you called Danny Mandel; is that right?

# 238 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 239 MS. CLARK:

And you asked him to look at the credit card receipt; is that right?

# 240 MS. AARONSON:

No. I asked him if he recalled what time it was that I asked him--that I asked--I asked him what time it was that he looked at his watch when we got by my apartment. That was my first--that was the question I asked.

# 241 MS. CLARK:

You asked him whether he had looked at his watch before he got to your apartment?

# 242 MS. AARONSON:

No. I knew he looked at the watch. I asked him what time it was, if he had any recollection of what time it was when he looked at his watch before we got to my apartment.

# 243 THE COURT:

Wait. Wait.

# 244 MS. CLARK:

Excuse me. I'm sorry. I thought she--

# 245 THE COURT:

Both of you. Please, let the attorney finish asking the question. Miss Clark, let the witness finish answering.

# 246 MS. CLARK:

I thought she had, your Honor. I wasn't watching. I'm sorry.

# 247 MS. CLARK:

All right. Today, however, you are certain that you looked at your watch and it was 10 minutes to 10:00?

# 248 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 249 MS. CLARK:

When the waitress came and asked you to pay your bill, correct?

# 250 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 251 MS. CLARK:

And then the waitress brought the bill, correct?

# 252 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 253 MS. CLARK:

And did you look at your watch at that point?

# 254 MS. AARONSON:

No.

# 255 MS. CLARK:

And when Mr. Mandel paid, he signed the credit card receipt? Do you recall when he signed it?

# 256 MS. AARONSON:

That was before it came back to us. When she came up to us 10 to 10:00, she gave us the bill. He gave her--he gave--Danny gave the waitress the credit card immediately. She then came back with the credit card receipt. When she--

# 257 MS. CLARK:

And he signed it?

# 258 MS. AARONSON:

And it sat there. Right.

# 259 MS. CLARK:

And what time was it is exactly when he signed it?

# 260 MS. AARONSON:

I don't know what time it was exactly.

# 261 MS. CLARK:

You didn't look at your watch?

# 262 MS. AARONSON:

I did not look at my watch.

# 263 MS. CLARK:

And after he signed the credit card receipt, you sat and talked to him for a while; is that correct?

# 264 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 265 MS. CLARK:

Can you tell us if all of the tables around you were still seated, still filled with patrons?

# 266 MS. AARONSON:

No. I couldn't tell that you.

# 267 MS. CLARK:

You don't know who was sitting around you, do you?

# 268 MS. AARONSON:

No, I don't.

# 269 MS. CLARK:

And you don't know how long you sat and talked with him, do you?

# 270 MS. AARONSON:

I have a recollection, yes, I do.

# 271 MS. CLARK:

Did you look at your watch when you got up to leave?

# 272 MS. AARONSON:

No, I didn't.

# 273 MS. CLARK:

And you walked out of the Mezzaluna and out onto Gorham; is that correct?

# 274 MS. AARONSON:

That's correct.

# 275 MS. CLARK:

And it's your testimony today that you walked straight down Gorham and turned left on Bundy; is that correct?

# 276 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 277 MS. CLARK:

Now, you would agree, would you not, Miss Aaronson, that Westgate is a quieter street than Bundy?

# 278 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 279 MS. CLARK:

And would you also agree, Miss Aaronson, that Granville is a quieter street than Bundy?

# 280 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 281 MS. CLARK:

And when I refer to Westgate and Granville, I'm referring to Westgate as the street just north of Dorothy--excuse me. Westgate is the street just north of Bundy and Granville is the street just north of that.

# 282 MS. AARONSON:

You're heading west right now.

# 283 MS. CLARK:

I'm just pointing to it.

# 284 MS. AARONSON:

Yeah. It's not north of Bundy. It's east of Bundy.

# 285 MS. CLARK:

East of Bundy. Yeah. On this chart as we face it above it--okay.

# 286 MS. AARONSON:

Yeah.

# 287 MS. CLARK:

And both of those are quieter streets than Bundy; isn't that right?

# 288 MS. AARONSON:

Much.

# 289 MS. CLARK:

Bundy is a fairly well traffic street would you say?

# 290 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 291 MS. CLARK:

And the intersection of Bundy and Gorham is not controlled for Bundy traffic; is that correct?

# 292 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 293 MS. CLARK:

It's only controlled for Gorham; is that right?

# 294 MS. AARONSON:

Are you asking me if there's a stop sign there?

# 295 MS. CLARK:

Yes.

# 296 MS. AARONSON:

There is not a stop sign going from Bundy as the road turns, but there is a stop sign from Gorham.

# 297 MS. CLARK:

That was my question.

# 298 MS. AARONSON:

Okay.

# 299 MS. CLARK:

Okay. So there's a stop sign at Gorham?

# 300 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 301 MS. CLARK:

But the traffic for Bundy is not controlled at that intersection, right?

# 302 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 303 MS. CLARK:

And when you got to the location of Gorham and Westgate, you say you stopped and debated which route to take?

# 304 MS. AARONSON:

Didn't debate. I just asked him if he wanted to take a shorter route or the longer route.

# 305 MS. CLARK:

You agree, would you not, Miss Aaronson, that it would be quicker to walk down Gorham--to walk down Gorham, turning left onto Westgate or Granville?

# 306 MS. AARONSON:

Granville.

# 307 MS. CLARK:

Granville or Westgate and then turn again--oops.

# 308 MS. AARONSON:

One block down.

# 309 MS. CLARK:

Yeah. One block down, and then turn right onto Darlington. That would be quicker, wouldn't it?

# 310 MS. AARONSON:

Yes, it would.

# 311 MS. CLARK:

But instead, you walked all the way down Gorham across to the west side of Bundy and walked down Bundy coming around to Darlington, correct?

# 312 MS. AARONSON:

To be specific, which I wasn't before, we didn't go exactly to the corner. We sort of cut the street.

# 313 MS. CLARK:

Cut below Dorothy?

# 314 MS. AARONSON:

Below Dorothy before Darlington. Walked on an angle. And I don't think I answered your question. Yes, it is--the other route is much shorter.

# 315 MS. CLARK:

Is much shorter? Now, you haven't seen Mr. Mandel since that night; is that correct?

# 316 MS. AARONSON:

I saw him once.

# 317 MS. CLARK:

And was that a date?

# 318 MS. AARONSON:

No.

# 319 MS. CLARK:

On what occasion did you see him?

# 320 MS. AARONSON:

When I was leaving Mr. Cochran's office, he arrived.

# 321 MS. CLARK:

Now, you spoke to him--did you speak to him before you spoke to Detective Kilcoyne for the first time?

# 322 MS. AARONSON:

Very briefly, yes, we did.

# 323 MS. CLARK:

And for what purpose did you speak to him?

# 324 MS. AARONSON:

I didn't want to call the police if I wasn't positive about things.

# 325 MS. CLARK:

Uh-huh.

# 326 MS. AARONSON:

I spoke to him very briefly. He didn't want to talk--he didn't want to get involved at first.

# 327 MS. CLARK:

And when you spoke to him, did you ask him about the timing of things?

# 328 MS. AARONSON:

At that time, no.

# 329 MS. CLARK:

What did you ask him?

# 330 MS. AARONSON:

I told him--we discussed it. We thought it was pretty weird we were there.

# 331 MS. CLARK:

And you didn't talk to him at all about what time you left the Mezzaluna?

# 332 MS. AARONSON:

Not at that stage, no.

# 333 MS. CLARK:

You did talk to him later?

# 334 MS. AARONSON:

Yes, I did.

# 335 MS. CLARK:

After you spoke to Detective Kilcoyne?

# 336 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 337 MS. CLARK:

During that first conversation with Mr. Mandel, did you talk to him about keeping his credit card receipt?

# 338 MS. AARONSON:

Not during that conversation, no. Not that I recall, about keeping his credit card receipt.

# 339 MS. CLARK:

But you told Detective Kilcoyne you claim in your first interview with him in June that you were going to get a copy of the credit card receipt; is that right?

# 340 MS. AARONSON:

Yes. That I was going to find out what took place on that credit card receipt. Correct.

# 341 MS. CLARK:

But you had not yet talked to Mr. Mandel about that?

# 342 MS. AARONSON:

Not about--totally about the credit card receipt, not of my recollection. I know I spoke to Danny in--during that period of--during that day. Umm, but exactly at what time I spoke to Danny about the time on the credit card receipt, I can't tell you.

# 343 MS. CLARK:

So you did not talk to Mr. Mandel about the credit card receipt before you spoke to Detective Kilcoyne, correct?

# 344 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 345 MS. CLARK:

Yet you told Detective Kilcoyne that you were going to get a copy of the credit card receipt, correct?

# 346 MR. COCHRAN:

I object to the form of question. It's argumentative, assumes--

# 347 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 348 MS. AARONSON:

I thought it was a logical way of figuring out the time.

# 349 MS. CLARK:

At that time, you didn't even know if Mr. Mandel would keep a copy of his credit card receipt, did you?

# 350 MS. AARONSON:

No, I--

# 351 MR. COCHRAN:

Objection. It's argumentative, your Honor.

# 352 THE COURT:

It calls for speculation is what it does. Sustained.

# 353 MS. CLARK:

Well, you didn't know if you could deliver on your promise to Detective Kilcoyne, the promise you claim you made about delivering on the credit card receipt; is that right?

# 354 MR. COCHRAN:

I object to the form of that question, promise.

# 355 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 356 MR. COCHRAN:

Argumentative.

# 357 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 358 MS. AARONSON:

Do I answer?

# 359 MS. CLARK:

Yes.

# 360 MS. AARONSON:

It was more of a promise to myself. It wasn't to him. But no, I couldn't let him know if I was going to get it or not.

KEY QUOTE

# 361 MS. CLARK:

But you claim you did tell him that that day?

# 362 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 363 MS. CLARK:

Now, as you walked down Bundy--

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (5)

Ellen Aaronson

My memory was not that secure at that time and I told him that initially.

Aaronson undermines the reliability of her initial police statement — and implicitly her own certainty — by claiming she flagged uncertainty to Detective Kilcoyne that does not appear in his report.

Ellen Aaronson

I told him that I was certain that it was 10 to, that I think it was 10 to 11:00, but I have to check, I'm not positive.

Directly contradicts her repeated 'correct' answers on cross about being certain she checked her watch at 9:50 PM; reveals the original time in her mind was closer to 10:50 PM.

Ellen Aaronson

No, I don't admit that that's what I said. I said to him that I looked at my watch at 10 to. I thought it was 10 to 11:00. I didn't tell--and that was not when I was by the crime scene at all.

Aaronson attempts to reframe her original statement, but the prior report says she passed the crime scene at 2300 hours knowing the time from her watch — which would place her near Bundy at 11 PM.

Ellen Aaronson

It was more of a promise to myself. It wasn't to him. But no, I couldn't let him know if I was going to get it or not.

Aaronson walks back her claim that she promised Detective Kilcoyne she would produce the credit card receipt, revealing she hadn't even spoken to Mandel about it yet.

Marcia Clark

You also testified that you had a conversation, your first conversation with the police in June, on June the 14th; is that right? ... You're positive. [Shows People's 495] And what does it say? June 15th.

Clark impeaches Aaronson on a specific date she claimed to be 'positive' about, using the police report to contradict her — a pattern Clark repeats throughout on timing details.

Evidence (2)

People's 495

Police report from Detective Kilcoyne's interview with Aaronson, dated June 15, 1994 at 10:40, stating she passed the crime scene at 2300 hours (11:00 PM) and knew the time because she looked at her watch and was surprised at the hour.

Introduced and used to impeach witness on both the date of the interview and the time she reported passing the crime scene

Informal

Credit card receipt from Danny Mandel showing a charge of approximately $47.40 at Mezzaluna

Discussed — Clark questioned whether the amount was plausible for two dinners and a cappuccino; Aaronson said she never studied the bill

Notable Exchanges (4)

Marcia Clark•Ellen Aaronson

Clark confronts Aaronson with People's 495 showing her first police interview was June 15 (not June 14 as she insisted) and that she reported passing the crime scene at 11 PM — not 9:50 PM. Aaronson disputes the date and reinterprets what she told the detective, claiming the report is inaccurate.

strategic

Marcia Clark•Ellen Aaronson

Clark establishes that Aaronson took the longer, busier Bundy route home past the crime scene rather than the shorter, quieter Westgate or Granville streets — implying the route choice is notable.

revealing

Marcia Clark•Ellen Aaronson

Clark probes Aaronson's coordination with Danny Mandel before and after speaking to police, revealing she spoke to him briefly before calling police, then discussed timing with him afterward, and last saw him arriving at Cochran's office.

strategic

Marcia Clark•Ellen Aaronson

Clark asks about the waitress's appearance; Aaronson describes her as fair-skinned, potentially contradicting Mandel's description. Clark attempts to drive the contrast home but is sustained on the argumentative question.

strategic

Light Moments (2)

Marcia Clark

When Cochran objects to Clark's questions about whether the $47.40 bill seemed expensive for two dinners and a cappuccino, Clark quips: 'Well, you know, I don't eat at the Red Star restaurants maybe.'

Ellen Aaronson

Aaronson corrects Clark's geography on the street map — 'You're heading west right now' / 'It's not north of Bundy. It's east of Bundy' — leaving Clark to concede 'East of Bundy. Yeah.'

Credibility Attacks (4)

⚔ Ellen Aaronson

Prior inconsistent statement

Clark used People's 495 (Kilcoyne's police report) to show that Aaronson initially reported passing the crime scene at 11:00 PM and that she was certain of the time because she looked at her watch — directly contradicting her trial testimony that she checked her watch at 9:50 PM while still in the restaurant.

⚔ Ellen Aaronson

Prior inconsistent statement on specific date

Aaronson insisted under oath that her first police interview was June 14th and that she was 'positive' — the police report shows June 15th. She disputes the report's date.

⚔ Ellen Aaronson

Coordination with defense/witness

Clark established that Aaronson spoke with Mandel before contacting police, discussed timing with him after the first police interview, and last saw him arriving at Cochran's office — raising inference of coordinated testimony.

⚔ Ellen Aaronson

Impeachment by omission

Aaronson claims she told Detective Kilcoyne her memory was uncertain at the time, but that caveat does not appear anywhere in his report. Clark points this out directly.

Witness Demeanor

Aaronson anticipates Clark's impeachment attempt on the date: 'I know what you're going to show me.' — composed and somewhat defiant

Aaronson asks the court permission to ask her own question mid-examination: 'May I ask you a question?' — engaged and assertive rather than passive

Aaronson interrupts and begins answering before Clark finishes questions multiple times, prompting Ito to admonish her twice

Objections

17 objections (6 sustained, 11 overruled)

Proceeding 6750 • 363 utterances • Defense witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103