THANK YOU VERY KINDLY.

CROSS-EXAMINATION (RESUMED)

BY MR. COCHRAN:

GOOD MORNING, DETECTIVE PHILLIPS. YOU FEELING ALL RIGHT?

GOOD MORNING, MR. COCHRAN. HOW ARE YOU?

FINE. FEELING ALL RIGHT?

FEELING FINE.

ALL RIGHT. GOOD. WHEN WE BROKE YESTERDAY, SIR, I ASKED YOU WHETHER OR NOT ARNELLE SIMPSON HAD TOLD YOU THAT HER FATHER WAS OUT OF TOWN DURING THE TIME THAT YOU SPOKE TO HER AT THE ROCKINGHAM RESIDENCE.

I DID NOT TALK TO MISS ARNELLE. SHE DID NOT TELL ME THAT PERSONALLY.

ALL RIGHT. DID YOU HEAR HER TELL ONE OF THE OTHER OFFICERS THAT?

SHE WAS TALKING TO TOM LANGE AFTER -- BEHIND MY BACK AFTER I WAS TALKING TO CATHY ON THE TELEPHONE.

AND DID YOU HEAR HER TELL TOM LANGE THAT HER FATHER WAS OUT OF TOWN ON A TRIP?

I COULD NOT -- I HEARD CONVERSATION, BUT I WAS NOT PAYING ATTENTION TO THE CONVERSATION.

IN OTHER WORDS, YOU HEARD A CONVERSATION, BUT YOU WEREN'T PAYING ATTENTION TO IT AT THAT POINT?

I WAS TALKING TO SOMEBODY ELSE ON THE TELEPHONE, SIR.

SO YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT WAS ACTUALLY SAID; IS THAT CORRECT?

I DO NOT KNOW.

ALL RIGHT. HAVE YOU HAD OCCASION TO REVIEW ANY REPORTS FROM DETECTIVE LANGE WITH REGARD TO WHAT ARNELLE SIMPSON SAID TO HIM?

I REVIEWED NONE OF DETECTIVE LANGE'S REPORTS.

HAVE YOU HAD OCCASION TO REVIEW ANY REPORTS OF WHAT KATO KAELIN SAID ABOUT O.J. SIMPSON'S WHEREABOUTS THAT MORNING?

JUST THE ONE THAT YOU SHOWED ME YESTERDAY, SIR.

ALL RIGHT. THAT'S THE ONLY REPORT THAT YOU --

THAT'S THE ONLY REPORT I SEEN.

IS THAT THE FIRST TIME YOU'VE SEEN THAT REPORT?

YES, IT IS, SIR.

ALL RIGHT. NOW, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, AT THIS POINT OR AT SOME POINT AFTER YOU GAINED ENTRANCE INTO THE HOUSE, INSIDE THE RESIDENCE WAS LANGE, VANNATTER AND YOURSELF, IS THAT RIGHT, AMONG THE POLICE OFFICERS?

WE WERE THE FIRST ONES THAT ENTERED ALONG WITH ARNELLE. I HAVE NO IDEA WHO FOLLOWED. I WAS TOLD WHO HAD FOLLOWED LATER, BUT I DID NOT SEE THAT.

WELL, I'M TALKING ABOUT THE ONES THAT YOU SAW. LANGE, VANNATTER AND YOURSELF AS FAR AS POLICE OFFICERS ENTERED INTO THE RESIDENCE?

YES.

ALONG WITH ARNELLE SIMPSON, MR. SIMPSON'S DAUGHTER, RIGHT?

YES.

AND AT THAT POINT, YOU DID NOT SEE EITHER MARK FUHRMAN OR KATO KAELIN; IS THAT CORRECT?

I DID A VERY SHORT TIME LATER.

BUT I'M ASKING AT THAT POINT, YOU DID NOT SEE THEM; IS THAT CORRECT?

I DID NOT SEE THEM ENTER THE HOUSE, NO, SIR.

BECAUSE WHEN YOU HAD LAST SEEN MARK FUHRMAN, HE WAS -- WASN'T HE OUT TALKING OR GONE IN KATO KAELIN'S ROOM TALKING WITH HIM?

I DID NOT SEE WHERE MARK FUHRMAN WENT AFTER I LEFT MR. KATO'S ROOM AND WENT OVER TO ARNELLE'S ROOM.

DID YOU FIND OUT AT SOME POINT, DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, THAT DETECTIVE FUHRMAN HAD INTERVIEWED MARK -- INTERVIEWED KATO KAELIN?

I UNDERSTOOD THAT THEY HAD A CONVERSATION, YES.

IN KATO KAELIN'S ROOM; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

I BELIEVE THAT'S WHERE THE CONVERSATION TOOK PLACE.

NOW, THIS CONVERSATION WITH ARNELLE SIMPSON AND LANGE WHICH YOU WERE ON THE PHONE, WHAT ROOM IN THE SIMPSON HOUSE DID THAT TAKE PLACE?

THIS WAS ALL TAKING PLACE IN THE KITCHEN RELATIVELY CLOSE TO WHERE THE TELEPHONE WAS THAT I WAS USING. THEY WERE TO MY BACK.

ALL RIGHT.

MAY I APPROACH, YOUR HONOR --

YES.

-- THE DIAGRAM? AND I BELIEVE THIS WAS PEOPLE'S 6 --

66.

MRS. ROBERTSON, THE DIAGRAM OF ROCKINGHAM?

PEOPLE'S 66. WE'LL JUST PUT THIS UP BRIEFLY. THANK YOU.

BY MR. COCHRAN: CAN YOU POINT TO AND SHOW US GENERALLY WHERE THIS KITCHEN AREA IS ON PEOPLE'S 66 FOR IDENTIFICATION, SIR?

WELL, I BELIEVE IT'S IN THIS AREA RIGHT AROUND IN HERE SOMEPLACE (INDICATING).

NOW, HE'S POINTING TO AN AREA NEAR THE BOTTOM PORTION OF THE RESIDENCE ON PEOPLE'S 66 I UNDERSTAND; IS THAT RIGHT?

YES.

OF THE MAIN RESIDENCE.

THE MAIN RESIDENCE.

YES.

BY MR. COCHRAN: AND THERE WAS A PHONE IN THAT LOCATION; WAS THAT CORRECT?

YES. IT WAS ON THE COUNTERTOP.

AND AT THAT POINT, YOU HAD MADE AN EFFORT OR YOU TRIED TO FIND OUT WHERE MR. SIMPSON WAS; IS THAT CORRECT?

WE HAD ASKED HER SOME QUESTIONS OUTSIDE.

ALL RIGHT. YOU ASKED ARNELLE WHEN YOU SAID HER?

WELL, SOMEONE ELSE HAD TALKED TO HER ABOUT IT OUTSIDE, AND THEN WE WALKED IN THE HOUSE AND I ASKED HER IF SHE COULD FIND SOME WAY OF TELLING ME OR GET ME IN TOUCH WITH CATHY WHO SHE HAD TOLD ME WOULD KNOW WHERE HER FATHER WAS AT.

ALL RIGHT. AND THEN DID YOU TALK TO CATHY RANDA?

AFTER ARNELLE DIALED THE PHONE NUMBER AND GOT AHOLD OF HER, YES.

AND IN THE COURSE OF YOUR CONVERSATION WITH CATHY RANDA, DID YOU ASCERTAIN THAT MR. SIMPSON WAS ON A PREARRANGED TRIP TO CHICAGO?

THE WORD "PREARRANGED" WASN'T USED. SHE TOLD ME THAT HE HAD LEFT THE NIGHT BEFORE ON A RED EYE, THAT HE HAD FLOWN TO CHICAGO AND THAT'S WHERE HE WAS AT NOW.

AND SHE KNEW ALSO WHICH HOTEL HE WAS IN ALSO; IS THAT CORRECT?

YES, SIR.

AND WHAT WAS THAT HOTEL, DO YOU RECALL?

THE CHICAGO O'HARE PLAZA HOTEL I BELIEVE.

ALL RIGHT. AND SHE WAS ABLE TO GIVE YOU THIS INFORMATION AND SHE WAS COOPERATIVE; WAS SHE NOT?

VERY COOPERATIVE, YES.

ALL RIGHT. NOW, WHAT TIME OF THE MORNING WAS THIS?

RIGHT JUST A FEW MINUTES AFTER 6:00 O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING.

ALL RIGHT. AND AT THAT TIME, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, YOU DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING AT ALL ABOUT HOW THE TWO INDIVIDUALS HAD MET THEIR DEATH; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

NO. WE HAD NOT DONE ANY CRIME SCENE INVESTIGATION AT THAT TIME.

BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT BECAUSE IN THE CONVERSATION AT 6:49, YOU WERE TELLING THE CORONER THAT THEY MAY HAVE BEEN BLUDGEONED TO DEATH OR SHOT; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

YES, SIR.

SO YOU DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THESE PARTICULAR DEATHS THAT MUCH, DID YOU?

I DID NOT KNOW HOW THEY HAD BEEN KILLED, NO.

ALL RIGHT. SO HOW LONG DID THE CONVERSATION LAST WITH MISS CATHY RANDA, SIR?

OH, I WOULD SAY NO MORE THAN A MINUTE TO A MINUTE AND A HALF, JUST LONG ENOUGH TO EXPLAIN TO HER WHO I WAS AND I NEEDED THIS INFORMATION, AND SHE GAVE IT TO ME AND I SAID I WOULD CALL INFORMATION AND GET THE NUMBER BECAUSE SHE DID NOT HAVE THE NUMBER.

ALL RIGHT. AND THEN WAS THERE A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME IN WHICH YOU CALLED THE AREA CODE AND I PRESUME 312 IN CHICAGO?

I BELIEVE I CALLED 411 OR WHATEVER AND ASKED FOR THE AREA CODE FOR CHICAGO AND THEN I MADE THAT AREA CODE CALL WITH THE 4 OR 411 AND GOT THAT INFORMATION.

AND THEN ARMED WITH THE INFORMATION GIVEN TO YOU BY CATHY RANDA WITH REGARD TO THE HOTEL, YOU THEN WERE ABLE TO GET THE HOTEL INFORMATION; IS THAT CORRECT?

YES, SIR.

LET'S SEE. THIS WAS SHORTLY AFTER 6:00 O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING IN LOS ANGELES; IS THAT CORRECT?

YES, SIR.

AND YOU'RE AWARE THAT -- IF MR. SIMPSON HAD TAKEN A RED EYE TO CHICAGO, WERE YOU ABLE TO ASCERTAIN WHAT TIME HE GOT TO CHICAGO?

NO, SIR, I DIDN'T.

AT ANY RATE, YOU KNEW THAT CHICAGO WAS ABOUT TWO HOURS AHEAD OF LOS ANGELES IN TIME; IS THAT CORRECT?

YES, SIR.

AND YOU KNEW IF HE HAD TAKEN THE PLANE THERE, HE WOULD HAVE ARRIVED SOMETIME THE EARLY MORNING HOURS IN CHICAGO OF THAT DATE OF JUNE 13TH; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

I WOULD HAVE TO ASSUME SO. I'VE NEVER FLOWN TO CHICAGO, SO I DON'T KNOW HOW LONG IT TAKES.

ALL RIGHT. BUT YOU'VE FLOWN EAST, HAVE YOU NOT, AT SOME POINT IN YOUR LIFE?

YES.

FLOWN TO NEW YORK?

YES.

AND YOU KNOW YOU ARRIVE THERE AT 5:00 OR 6:00 O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING, 6:30?

YES, SIR.

ALL RIGHT. SO YOU THEN PLACED A CALL TO THE HOTEL IN CHICAGO; IS THAT CORRECT?

YES, SIR.

AND AT THAT TIME, YOU HAD NEVER BEFORE SPOKEN WITH MR. O.J. SIMPSON ON THE PHONE; IS THAT CORRECT?

NEVER BEFORE IN MY LIFE.

AND YOU WERE CONNECTED TO AN OPERATOR; WERE YOU NOT?

SOMEONE WHO ANSWERED THE PHONE AT THE HOTEL, YES.

AND DID YOU ASK FOR MR. O.J. SIMPSON'S ROOM?

YES, I DID.

NOW, AT THIS POINT, YOU WERE FULFILLING THE FUNCTION THAT YOU HAD BEEN ASKED TO DO EARLIER BY COMMANDER BUSHEY; IS THAT CORRECT?

THAT'S CORRECT.

WAS THERE ANY PARTICULAR REASON WHY, SINCE YOU WERE REALLY OFF THE CASE AT THIS POINT, THAT YOU DIDN'T JUST GIVE THAT TO LANGE OR VANNATTER WHO WERE NOW ON THE CASE TO DO THIS?

LANGE WAS AT THE PRESENT TIME TRYING TO CONSOLE ARNELLE SIMPSON WHO WAS VERY UPSET BEHIND THIS. ALL THESE THINGS WERE GOING ON AT THE SAME TIME.

NO. I MEAN EVEN BEFORE THAT TIME. I UNDERSTAND EVERYBODY WAS UPSET. BUT BEFORE THAT TIME, THIS FUNCTION OF NOTIFYING MR. SIMPSON COULD HAVE BEEN DONE JUST AS EASILY BY THE DETECTIVES ON THE CASE; COULD IT NOT HAVE BEEN?

IT COULD HAVE BEEN DONE BY ANYONE.

OKAY. DID YOU EVER CONSIDER HAVING LANGE OR VANNATTER DO IT?

NEVER CROSSED MY MIND.

OKAY. NEVER THOUGHT ABOUT THAT. NOW, YOU SAID THAT BEFORE THIS PHONE CALL, ARNELLE SIMPSON WAS VERY UPSET. AND HOW WAS SHE MANIFESTING THIS STATE OF BEING UPSET?

I DIDN'T SAY BEFORE THE PHONE CALL. SHE WAS UPSET. I SAID, AS I WAS MAKING THE PHONE CALL AND TALKING TO HER FATHER ON THE PHONE, DETECTIVE LANGE WAS TALKING TO HER BEHIND AND OBVIOUSLY TELLING HER THE SAME THING THAT I WAS TELLING HER FATHER ON THE PHONE BECAUSE SHE STARTED TO CRY AND BECAME VERY UPSET.

ALL RIGHT. YOU COULD HEAR THIS AS YOU WERE GOING THROUGH THIS CONVERSATION?

I COULD HEAR THAT THE WOMAN GOT UPSET, YES.

ALL RIGHT. AND PRIOR TO YOUR DIALING THE NUMBER IN CHICAGO, HAD YOU OR LANGE IN YOUR PRESENCE TOLD ARNELLE SIMPSON ABOUT THE DEATH OF NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON?

I DID NOT.

ALL RIGHT. YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT LANGE TOLD HER AND WHEN?

I DO NOT KNOW THAT.

AND THEY WERE BEHIND YOU, SO YOU COULDN'T GIVE US THE EXACT TIMING; IS THAT CORRECT?

THAT'S CORRECT.

ALL RIGHT. SO NOW, YOU THEN RANG AND YOU RECEIVED THE ROOM OF A MAN, SUPPOSEDLY MR. O.J. SIMPSON; IS THAT CORRECT?

YES.

NOW, AS I UNDERSTAND THE LAPD POLICY -- WE TALKED ABOUT THIS YESTERDAY. FIRST OF ALL, YOU KNEW THAT O.J. SIMPSON WAS NOT THE NEXT OF KIN. THIS WAS HIS EX-WIFE, RIGHT? YOU KNEW THAT?

SOMEONE HAD TOLD ME THAT, YES.

AND IN YOUR POLICY, LAPD POLICY, YOU WERE TO GIVE SOME KIND OF A PERSONAL NOTIFICATION IF AT ALL POSSIBLE; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

IF AT ALL POSSIBLE.

WOULD IT HAVE BEEN POSSIBLE FOR YOU TO CALL AND GET SOME COOPERATION FROM A CHICAGO POLICE OFFICER TO GO AND MAKE THIS NOTIFICATION PERHAPS IN A MORE GENTLE FASHION THAN AWAKING SOMEBODY UP IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT TELLING THEM THEIR EX-WIFE HAD BEEN KILLED? WOULD IT HAVE BEEN POSSIBLE?

I COULD HAVE DONE IT A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT WAYS. THIS IS THE WAY THAT I CHOSE TO DO IT AND I THOUGHT IT WAS DONE VERY HUMANELY AND THAT'S THE WAY I DID IT.

WELL, I UNDERSTAND THIS IS THE WAY YOU DID IT. I'M JUST TALKING ABOUT OTHER WAYS YOU COULD HAVE DONE IT CONSISTENT WITH THE LAPD POLICY. AND YOU HAD SAID TO US YESTERDAY THAT ONE OF THE THINGS YOU WERE STRIVING FOR WAS A CERTAIN LEVEL OF SENSITIVITY.

YES.

THAT YOU WANTED TO GET THIS DONE BECAUSE COMMANDER BUSHEY HAD TOLD YOU TO DO IT, RIGHT?

YES.

AND WOULD YOU AGREE WITH ME THAT PERHAPS IN COMPORTING WITH THE LAPD POLICY, CERTAINLY A WAY TO DO THIS IN COMPORTING WITH THAT POLICY WOULD BE TO GET A CHICAGO POLICE OFFICER, GIVE HIM THE FACTS OR HER THE FACTS, HAVE THEM GO TO THAT ROOM, WAKE THIS MAN UP AND ACTUALLY TELL THIS MAN IN PERSON? THAT'S PART OF THE LAPD POLICY. THAT WAS A WAY; WAS IT NOT?

WELL, I THINK THE SITUATION DICTATED WHAT HAPPENED BECAUSE WE HAD GONE ONTO THE PROPERTY AND WE HAD CONTACTED HIS DAUGHTER. SHE KNEW SOMETHING WAS WRONG, TO HAVE SOME POLICEMAN AT HER HOUSE AT 6:00 O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING. SHE KNEW SOMETHING WAS UP, SOMETHING WAS WRONG WITH HER FATHER OR SOMETHING --

WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT ARNELLE RIGHT NOW. WE KNOW SHE KNEW SOMETHING WAS UP.

WELL, CONTACTING ARNELLE KIND OF FORCED THE HAND.

ALL RIGHT. WELL, YOU COMFORTED ARNELLE. BUT STILL, MY QUESTION WAS, SIR, YOU COULD HAVE ARRANGED FOR A CHICAGO POLICE OFFICER TO MAKE THIS NOTIFICATION; COULD YOU NOT HAVE?

I CERTAINLY COULD HAVE.

BUT WE DIDN'T DO THAT, DID WE?

I DID NOT.

SO YOU THEN RANG A ROOM THAT WAS SUPPOSEDLY MR. O.J. SIMPSON'S ROOM. AND COULD YOU TELL WHETHER OR NOT THAT PERSON APPEARED TO HAVE BEEN SLEEPING AT THE TIME THAT YOU MADE THIS CALL?

I HAVE NO WAY OF KNOWING THAT.

ALL RIGHT. AND THE CALL -- THIS WAS SHORTLY AFTER 6:00 O'CLOCK A.M. ON JUNE 13TH; IS THAT CORRECT?

YES.

AND WITH REGARD TO THIS, YOU DID IN FACT MAKE A REPORT REGARDING THIS ASPECT OF YOUR INVOLVEMENT; DID YOU NOT?

YES, I DID.

AND HAVE YOU SEEN THAT AND READ IT OVER RECENTLY?

YES, SIR.

AND THIS REPORT THAT'S NUMBERED, COUNSEL, 00829 FROM JUNE 13, 1994, LOCATION, 360 ROCKINGHAM, LABELED STATEMENT --

DO YOU HAVE IT?

OKAY.

BY MR. COCHRAN: YOU WROTE THIS STATEMENT WHEN, SIR, IN RELATION TO JUNE 13TH, 1994?

I BELIEVE I PROBABLY MADE IT THE FOLLOWING DAY, JUNE 14TH.

AND IF YOU LOOK AT THIS STATEMENT -- LET ME APPROACH.

MAY I, YOUR HONOR?

BY MR. COCHRAN: WOULD THAT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION AS TO WHEN YOU ACTUALLY MADE THIS STATEMENT? LET ME JUST SHOW IT TO YOU, PLACE IT BEFORE YOU.

IT DOESN'T REFRESH MY MEMORY AS TO EXACTLY WHEN IT -- WHAT TIME AND WHAT DAY I DID IT. IT JUST TELLS THE DATE THAT THAT CONVERSATION TOOK PLACE ON JUNE 13TH.

IT DOES SAY JUNE 13TH, RIGHT?

THAT'S THE DAY THE CONVERSATION TOOK PLACE.

AND THIS IS A STATEMENT BY DETECTIVE III RONALD PHILLIPS, RIGHT?

THAT'S CORRECT.

AND HAS YOUR IDENTIFYING NUMBER; IS THAT CORRECT?

YES, SIR.

AND THIS STATEMENT WAS ACCURATE AT THE TIME YOU DID IT, WHETHER YOU DID IT ON THE 13TH OR 14TH, RIGHT?

TO THE BEST OF MY RECOLLECTION.

ALL RIGHT. YOU TOLD MR. SIMPSON, ACCORDING TO YOUR STATEMENT, THAT -- YOU GAVE HIM YOUR NAME; IS THAT CORRECT?

YES, SIR.

AND YOU TOLD HIM THAT YOU HAD TO RELAY SOME BAD INFORMATION TO HIM; IS THAT CORRECT?

THAT'S CORRECT.

AND AT THAT POINT, WHEN YOU SAID YOU HAD TO RELAY SOME BAD INFORMATION TO HIM, DID YOU PREFACE IT BY SAYING, "YOUR CHILDREN ARE ALL RIGHT, MR. SIMPSON?" REMEMBER SAYING THAT TO HIM?

THE CHILDREN WERE BROUGHT UP LATER IN THE CONVERSATION.

NO. I'M ASKING YOU NOW, WHEN YOU SAID, "I'VE GOT SOME BAD INFORMATION FOR YOU, BUT YOUR CHILDREN ARE ALL RIGHT," DID YOU SAY THAT AT AN EARLY POINT IN THE CONVERSATION?

I DON'T RECALL THAT.

IS IT POSSIBLE THAT YOU SAID, "YOUR CHILDREN ARE ALL RIGHT," WORDS TO THAT EFFECT?

IT'S CERTAINLY POSSIBLE THAT I COULD HAVE SAID IT. I JUST DON'T RECALL SAYING IT.

I UNDERSTAND. I UNDERSTAND. IT'S BEEN SOMETIME, RIGHT? ALL RIGHT. AND THEN THEREAFTER, YOU THEN AT SOME POINT IN THE CONVERSATION SAID TO MR. SIMPSON THAT, "YOUR EX-WIFE, NICOLE HAD BEEN KILLED"; IS THAT CORRECT?

YES, SIR.

AND WHEN YOU SAID THAT, MR. SIMPSON BECAME VERY, VERY UPSET ON THE PHONE; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

YES, HE DID.

IN FACT, YESTERDAY, YOU SAID THAT HE BECAME UNDERSTANDABLY OR YOU EXPECTED THAT HE WOULD BE UPSET BY THIS INFORMATION; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

THAT'S CORRECT.

AND IN BECOMING UPSET, HE SAID TO YOU, "WHAT DO YOU MEAN SHE'S BEEN KILLED?" HE ASKED YOU THAT RIGHT OFF, DIDN'T HE? "WHAT DO YOU MEAN SHE'S BEEN KILLED," HE SAID THAT?

WELL, LET ME ASK YOU THIS QUESTION. WELL, LOOK IN FRONT OF YOUR --

OBJECTION. CAN THE WITNESS BE PERMITTED TO FINISH HIS ANSWER?

I'M TRYING TO GET IT RESPONSIVE.

THERE WAS A SPECIFIC QUESTION. THAT WAS NOT RESPONSIVE TO THAT QUESTION.

THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

MR. COCHRAN.

THANK YOU.

BY MR. COCHRAN: IN REFERRING TO YOUR REPORT, IT SAYS, MR. SIMPSON REPLIED, "WHAT DO YOU MEAN SHE'S BEEN KILLED?" DO YOU REMEMBER HIM SAYING THAT? YOU WROTE THAT IN YOUR REPORT?

OKAY.

DO YOU REMEMBER THAT?

YES.

OKAY. AND WHEN HE SAID, "WHAT DO YOU MEAN SHE'S BEEN KILLED," DID YOU SAY, "MR. SIMPSON, I'M GOING TO TELL YOU ALL ABOUT THIS. I'M GOING TO TELL YOU EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED, HOW THE PEOPLE WERE KILLED"? YOU DIDN'T SAY THAT, DID YOU?

I NEVER HAD A CHANCE.

ALL RIGHT. BUT YOU NEVER SAID THAT, DID YOU?

YOU NEVER SAID IT AND YOU DIDN'T KNOW AT THAT POINT, DID YOU? YOU COULDN'T HAVE TOLD HIM?

I DID NOT KNOW THE MEANS BY WHICH THEY HAD BEEN KILLED.

BECAUSE 45 MINUTES LATER, WHEN YOU WERE TALKING TO THE CORONER, YOU SAID THEY MAY HAVE BEEN BLUDGEONED TO DEATH OR SHOT; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

I DIDN'T KNOW THE MEANS BY WHICH THEY HAD BEEN KILLED.

SO YOU NEVER RESPONDED TO MR. O.J. SIMPSON'S REQUEST, "WHAT DO YOU MEAN SHE'S BEEN KILLED?" AND IT IS YOUR STATEMENT THAT HE WAS UPSET AT THIS POINT; WAS HE NOT?

YES, HE WAS.

AND YOU EXPECTED -- AND THEN HE WENT ON TO SAY, "OH, MY GOD, NICOLE IS DEAD. OH, MY GOD," AND HE CONTINUED REPEATING HIMSELF IN AN UPSET FASHION; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

YES, HE DID.

AND AT SOME POINT, DIDN'T YOU TRY TO GET HIM TO GET HOLD OF HIMSELF FROM AN EMOTIONAL STANDPOINT?

YES, I DID.

AND HE KEPT REPEATING HIMSELF, "SHE'S BEEN KILLED? WHAT YOU DO MEAN SHE'S BEEN KILLED? OH, MY GOD, NICOLE IS DEAD," AND REPEATED HIMSELF OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

THAT'S CORRECT.

HE SEEMED TO BE VERY UPSET, RIGHT?

RIGHT.

THIS IS THE FIRST TIME YOU HAD EVER TALKED TO HIM?

YES.

YOU DON'T KNOW WHETHER OR NOT HE HAD HAD ONLY ONE HOUR OF SLEEP THAT NIGHT; IS THAT RIGHT?

NO IDEA.

YOU DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU HAD AWAKENED HIM WITH THIS KIND OF INFORMATION, DO YOU?

NO, I DON'T, SIR.

THEN YOU WENT ON TO SAY IN YOUR REPORT AND WHAT HAPPENED WAS, YOU TRIED TO TALK TO MR. SIMPSON. HOWEVER, FOR SEVERAL SECONDS, HE WAS REPEATING HIMSELF OVER AND OVER AGAIN ABOUT NICOLE BEING DEAD; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

YES.

HE SEEMED TO YOU TO BE STUNNED; DID HE NOT?

SEEMED TO BE UPSET.

ALL RIGHT. AND THEN IN YOUR REPORT, YOU INDICATE, "I FINALLY WAS ABLE TO TELL MR. SIMPSON THAT WE HAD HIS CHILDREN AT THE WEST LOS ANGELES POLICE STATION." YOU SAID THAT AT SOME POINT; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

YES, SIR.

THIS WAS AFTER HE WENT THROUGH BEING VERY UPSET ASKING THIS QUESTION AND TALKING IN -- REPEATING HIMSELF OVER AND OVER AGAIN?

I FINALLY GOT HIM TO LISTEN TO ME AGAIN, YES.

NOW, YOU AS AN EXPERIENCED -- HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN A LAPD OFFICER? 28 YEARS?

28 YEARS.

YOU'RE AN EXPERIENCED OFFICER?

28 YEARS.

AND YOU'VE HAD THIS TASK BEFORE, TO GIVE INFORMATION TO PEOPLE WHO'VE LOST A LOVED ONE; HAVE YOU NOT?

FAR TOO MANY TIMES, YES.

AND IT'S ALWAYS A TOUGH SITUATION, ISN'T IT?

YES, IT IS.

DIFFERENT PEOPLE REACT DIFFERENTLY, DON'T THEY?

YES, THEY DO.

AND THERE'S NO BOOK ANYWHERE ABOUT HOW ANYBODY ACTS WHEN THEY GO INTO A STATE OF SHOCK; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

I DON'T HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE OF HOW PEOPLE GO INTO A STATE OF SHOCK.

WHAT YOU TRY TO DO AS A TRAINED EXPERIENCED MEMBER OF THE LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT IS TO TRY TO BE AS SENSITIVE AS YOU CAN; IS THAT CORRECT?

I TRY MY BEST.

ESPECIALLY IN A SITUATION WHERE YOU'RE NOT EVEN SEEING THIS PERSON, ARE YOU?

NO, I'M NOT.

YOU CAN'T SEE HIS FACE OR WHATEVER, CAN YOU?

NO, SIR.

ALL RIGHT. AND YOU'RE OVER A TELEPHONE; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

YES, SIR.

AND THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS WHY YOUR POLICY IS MUCH BETTER; TO BE FACE TO FACE OR HAVE SOMEBODY FACE TO FACE; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

YES. THAT'S THE POLICY. IF AT ALL PRACTICABLE, THAT'S THE POLICY.

AND WOULD YOU AGREE WITH ME THAT WOULD BE A LOT MORE ACCURATE FROM THE STANDPOINT OF DETERMINING HOW THE OTHER PERSON REACTED, WHEN YOU CAN ACTUALLY SEE HIM LIKE YOU AND I ARE SEEING EACH OTHER RIGHT NOW; IS THAT CORRECT?

I WOULD RATHER HAVE DONE IT IN PERSON, YES.

I UNDERSTAND. NOW, BY THE WAY, THIS STATEMENT OF YOUR CONVERSATION WITH MR. O.J. SIMPSON SHORTLY AFTER 6:00 O'CLOCK ON JUNE 13TH WAS NOT TAPE-RECORDED, WAS IT?

NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE.

SO WE DON'T HAVE THE BENEFIT OF THAT BEING TAPE-RECORDED, DO YOU?

NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE WAS IT TAPE-RECORDED.

WELL, YOU WEREN'T TAPING IT, WERE YOU?

I WASN'T.

AND HE WASN'T EXPECTING YOUR CALL. SO HE WASN'T TAPE-RECORDING ON THAT END, WAS HE?

I DON'T KNOW THAT IT WAS TAPED, SIR.

OKAY. YOU'VE NEVER HEARD OR SEEN A TAPE, HAVE YOU?

NO, I HAVEN'T.

ALL RIGHT. SO WHEN YOU FINALLY WERE ABLE TO TELL MR. SIMPSON THAT "WE HAD HIS CHILDREN AT WEST LOS ANGELES POLICE STATION," MR. SIMPSON THEN SAID, "WHY DO THE POLICE HAVE MY KIDS? WHERE ARE MY KIDS"; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

YES.

ALL RIGHT. AND THEN YOU THEN ADVISED MR. SIMPSON THAT "WE HAD TAKEN HIS CHILDREN TO THE STATION BECAUSE WE HAD NO ONE TO TURN HIS CHILDREN OVER TO," AND THAT WITHOUT PROMPTING, MR. SIMPSON TOLD YOU THAT HE WOULD IMMEDIATELY RETURN HOME TO LOS ANGELES AS SOON AS HE COULD GET A FLIGHT; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

THAT'S CORRECT.

YOU THEN GAVE MR. SIMPSON YOUR PAGER AND STATION NUMBER SO HE COULD CALL BACK IF HE HAD ANY FURTHER QUESTIONS; IS THAT CORRECT?

AND I EVEN BELIEVE MR. SIMPSON DID PAGE ME, BUT I NEVER GOT THE PAGE. IT WAS AT THE OFFICE.

AND YOU BECAME AWARE THAT HE DID PAGE YOU BACK AT SOME POINT?

I HAD A NOTE ON MY DESK THAT I HAD RECEIVED A PAGE FROM MR. SIMPSON, YES.

BUT YOU NEVER CALLED HIM BACK, DID YOU, BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T GET THE PAGER -- YOU DIDN'T GET IT IN TIME, RIGHT?

THAT'S CORRECT.

BUT YOU BECAME AWARE SOMETIME AFTER THIS MR. SIMPSON PAGED YOU TO TRY TO TALK TO YOU FURTHER; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

I DON'T KNOW WHY HE WAS PAGING ME. ALL I COULD TELL YOU, HE PAGED ME, PROBABLY WANTED TO TALK TO ME. I NEVER HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO TALK TO HIM.

I UNDERSTAND. BUT YOU AGREE WITH ME, WOULD YOU NOT, IF HE PAGED YOU AFTER YOU GAVE HIM THE PAGER NUMBER, HE PROBABLY WANTED TO TALK TO YOU? DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT?

I WOULD IMAGINE SO.

OKAY. AND WHEN YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT THE CHILDREN, WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TO THE CHILDREN, MR. SIMPSON SAID TO YOU, "LET ME TALK TO MY DAUGHTER ARNELLE," DIDN'T HE, AT SOME POINT?

YES, HE DID.

AND YOU THEN, BEING COOPERATIVE, YOU THEN GAVE THE PHONE TO HIS DAUGHTER ARNELLE WHO WAS ALSO UPSET THERE; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

YES, SIR.

AND SHE WAS CRYING, WASN'T SHE, ALSO?

YES, SHE WAS.

AND THEN YOU THEN HEARD A CONVERSATION THAT WENT ON BETWEEN ARNELLE SPEAKING INTO THE PHONE TO HER FATHER; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

WELL, SHE WAS TALKING TO HER FATHER, YES. I WASN'T PAYING TOO MUCH ATTENTION TO THE CONVERSATION.

BUT YOU COULD TELL SHE WAS TALKING INTO THE PHONE?

YES, SIR.

AND YOU KNOW SHE WAS TALKING TO HER FATHER?

YES, SIR.

ALL RIGHT. AND WHEN YOU WERE TALKING TO MR. SIMPSON IN THIS FIRST PART, WHEN HE WAS REPEATING HIMSELF OVER AND OVER AGAIN AND BEING VERY UPSET AND ASKING THE QUESTION, "WHAT DO YOU MEAN SHE'S BEEN KILLED," ARNELLE WAS STANDING RIGHT THERE, WASN'T SHE, RIGHT BEHIND YOU?

AS I SAID, SHE WAS BEHIND ME TALKING TO DETECTIVE LANGE.

HOW MANY FEET WOULD YOU SAY SHE WAS AWAY FROM YOU?

FIVE, SIX, SEVEN FEET, SOMEWHERE IN THAT AREA.

SO CERTAINLY SHE WAS WITHIN HEARING DISTANCE?

WELL, I THINK THAT'S WHY DETECTIVE LANGE WAS TALKING TO HER AT THE SAME TIME, BECAUSE SHE WAS OVERHEARING MY CONVERSATION TO HER FATHER.

SO I'M JUST TRYING TO ESTABLISH, SHE WAS WITHIN FIVE OR SIX FEET, WITHIN HEARING DISTANCE OF YOU WHEN YOU WERE TALKING AND WHEN LANGE WAS TALKING; IS THAT RIGHT?

YES, SIR.

OKAY, SIR. SO THEN SHE HAD A CONVERSATION WITH HER FATHER AND SOME ARRANGEMENTS WERE MADE FOR HER TO PICK UP THE CHILDREN, AT LEAST UNTIL HE GETS BACK TO TOWN; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

YES.

AND DID SHE -- AFTER THAT CONVERSATION, DID SHE AND MR. A.C. COWLINGS THEN ARRANGE TO GO DOWN TO THE STATION AND PICK UP THE CHILDREN?

MR. COWLINGS ARRIVED AND ARNELLE INTRODUCED ME TO HIM AND SAID THAT THEY WERE GOING TO PICK THEM UP. SO I CALLED SERGEANT -- ANOTHER SERGEANT AT THE STATION AND INFORMED THEM OF WHO WAS COMING TO THE WEST LOS ANGELES POLICE STATION TO PICK THESE CHILDREN UP AND THAT IT WAS OKAY TO TURN THEM OVER TO THE PEOPLE THAT WERE COMING.

ALL RIGHT. TO DIGRESS JUST FOR A MOMENT, WITH REGARD TO THE CHILDREN, THEY HAD BEEN DOWN AT THE STATION NOW FOR -- OH, APPROXIMATELY 12:40 OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, SHORTLY AFTER MIDNIGHT, UNTIL SOMETIME AFTER 6:00 O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING; IS THAT CORRECT?

THAT'S CORRECT.

AND WERE YOU AWARE THAT THEY WERE BEING WATCHED BY SOME POLICE OFFICERS THERE; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

OBJECTION. CALLS FOR HEARSAY.

SPECULATION. DO YOU KNOW?

I KNOW THEY WERE BEING CARED FOR, YES.

BY MR. COCHRAN: CARED FOR? YES. THEY WERE BEING CARED FOR BY POLICE OFFICERS; IS THAT RIGHT?

YES.

ALL RIGHT. ARE YOU AWARE THAT WHILE THOSE POLICE OFFICERS AT THAT STATION --

OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.

MAY I COMPLETE THE QUESTION?

BY MR. COCHRAN: WERE YOU AWARE THAT ONE OF THOSE POLICE OFFICERS AT THAT STATION --

OBJECTION. I WOULD ASK TO APPROACH.

MAY WE HAVE A SECOND? WE'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE ANY SIDEBARS TODAY. NO, NO SIDEBARS. LET ME HAVE A MINUTE.

COUNSEL, WILL YOU CONFER?

MAY I CONFER WITH YOU?

WHY DON'T YOU HAVE YOUR OWN SMALL SIDEBAR.

NO SIDEBARS.

NO SIDEBARS TODAY, YOUR HONOR.

I'M TRYING.

WE ARE ALL TIRED. LET'S MOVE ALONG.

YES, WE ALL ARE.

MR. COCHRAN.

THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

BY MR. COCHRAN: WERE YOU AWARE THAT ONE OF THE POLICE OFFICERS AT WEST LOS ANGELES STATION WHILE THE CHILDREN WERE THERE HAD A CONVERSATION WITH THE OLDEST CHILD SIDNEY? YOU CAN ANSWER THAT YES OR NO.

I DON'T KNOW THAT.

ALL RIGHT. YOU DON'T KNOW? HAVE YOU EVER SEEN ANY REPORTS --

NO.

-- OF THE REPORTED CONVERSATION?

NO. I KNOW THEY WERE TALKED TO BY OFFICERS FOR SEVERAL HOURS AND THERE WAS MANY CONVERSATIONS. I DON'T KNOW WHAT CONVERSATION YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT OR WHAT THOSE CONVERSATIONS WERE.

WELL, WE ARE NOT GOING TO GET INTO THE CONVERSATION AT THIS POINT. I JUST WANT TO KNOW IF YOU WERE AWARE OF ANY SPECIFIC CONVERSATION ABOUT WHICH THERE IS A POLICE REPORT.

NO, SIR.

YOU HAVE NOT SEEN THAT REPORT?

NO, SIR.

ALL RIGHT. SO AT SOME POINT THEN, BACK TO THE SITUATION WHEN MR. SIMPSON FINISHED SPEAKING WITH HIS DAUGHTER AND ARRANGEMENTS WERE MADE FOR THE CHILDREN TO BE PICKED UP, YOU DIDN'T TALK BACK TO HIM AT THAT POINT; IS THAT CORRECT?

TALK TO WHO, SIR?

BACK TO MR. SIMPSON AT THAT POINT.

NO, SIR.

THE PHONE WAS NOT HANDED BACK TO YOU, RIGHT?

I BELIEVE SHE HUNG UP.

SHE HUNG UP THE PHONE, RIGHT? ALL RIGHT. DID YOU ASCERTAIN WHEN YOU GOT YOUR PAGE AND DO YOU STILL HAVE THAT LITTLE MESSAGE WHEN YOU GOT THE PAGE?

LIKE I SAID, I GAVE HIM MY PAGER NUMBER. I ALSO GAVE HIM MY PHONE NUMBER AT THE OFFICE. AND WHEN I SAID I RECEIVED A PAGE, I WAS IN ERROR ON THAT BECAUSE I THINK HE CALLED THE STATION LOOKING FOR ME AT THE STATION BECAUSE THERE WAS A MESSAGE NOTE ON MY DESK THAT MR. SIMPSON HAD CALLED.

WELL, I'M JUST TRYING TO FIND OUT, DO YOU KNOW WHEN THAT WAS APPROXIMATELY?

I WOULD HAVE NO IDEA. I DON'T REMEMBER WHEN, IF THERE WAS EVEN A TIME WHEN THAT MESSAGE WAS TAKEN.

ALL RIGHT. ALL YOU KNOW IS HE TRIED AND YOU CAN'T TELL US WHEN THAT WAS, RIGHT?

HE TRIED, HE LEFT A MESSAGE.

AND YOU CAN'T TELL US WHAT TIME IT WAS IS WHAT I'M ASKING.

NO, SIR.

ALL RIGHT. FINE. NO PROBLEM. NOW, THIS CONVERSATION THAT WE'VE JUST GONE THROUGH IN GREAT DETAIL NOW REGARDING MR. SIMPSON, HOW LONG DID THAT CONVERSATION LAST, THE TIME YOU FIRST STARTED TALKING TO HIM UNTIL THE TIME THAT YOU HANDED THE PHONE TO HIS DAUGHTER ARNELLE?

JUST MY PART OF THE CONVERSATION. THAT'S WHAT YOU ARE ASKING ME?

WELL, THE ENTIRE CONVERSATION. THERE WERE PERIODS WHEN HE WAS VERY UPSET.

THE WHOLE CONVERSATION BETWEEN HE AND ARNELLE OR --

NO.

-- JUST MYSELF AND MR. SIMPSON?

JUST YOUR PART AND MR. SIMPSON, SIR.

BECAUSE THAT PHONE CALL KEPT GOING ON WITH ARNELLE.

NOW, I AM TRYING TO FIND OUT THE PART BETWEEN PHILLIPS AND MR. O.J. SIMPSON.

I WOULD SAY IT WAS LESS THAN A MINUTE, A MINUTE AT MOST.

ALL RIGHT. AND THEN AFTER THAT, TO BREAK IT INTO SEQUENCE, HOW LONG WAS THE CONVERSATION WITH ARNELLE SIMPSON AND HER DAD BEFORE THE PHONE WAS HUNG UP?

I HAVE NO IDEA. COUPLE MINUTES.

YOU MOVED ON TO OTHER THINGS AT THAT POINT?

YES.

ALL RIGHT. AND THEN YOU NEVER TALKED TO O.J. SIMPSON AGAIN AFTER THAT; IS THAT CORRECT?

NO, SIR.

NOW, AS AN EXPERIENCED DETECTIVE, YOU WERE ASKED A LOT OF QUESTIONS YESTERDAY BY MISS CLARK ABOUT DETAILS OF THIS OR WHATEVER. YOU NEVER IN THAT CONVERSATION EVER MENTIONED THAT THERE WERE TWO PEOPLE KILLED, DID YOU? YOU NEVER MENTIONED THAT, DID YOU?

NO, SIR.

YOU ONLY TALKED ABOUT NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON; IS THAT RIGHT?

THAT'S CORRECT.

YOU DIDN'T KNOW ANY DETAILS ABOUT THE KILLING; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

THAT'S CORRECT.

YOU WOULDN'T HAVE SHARED ANY DETAILS ABOUT THE KILLING OF ANYBODY THAT ASKED YOU; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

THAT'S CORRECT.

EVEN IF YOU DID KNOW, RIGHT?

RIGHT.

SO WHEN HE ASKED YOU THE QUESTION, "WHAT DO YOU MEAN SHE'S BEEN KILLED," YOU NEVER ANSWERED THAT OR YOU COULDN'T ANSWER IT ANYWAY; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

I NEVER HAD A CHANCE TO ANSWER IT AND I PROBABLY WOULDN'T HAVE TOLD HIM THAT ANYWAYS.

WELL, I HOPE YOU WOULDN'T. IT'S PART OF AN ONGOING INVESTIGATION; IS THAT CORRECT?

THAT'S CORRECT.

NOW, IN THAT CONVERSATION, DIDN'T YOU THOUGH TOWARDS THE END OF THAT CONVERSATION WITH MR. SIMPSON SAY, "WHAT TIME DID YOU LEAVE LAST NIGHT"?

NO, SIR.

DID YOU ASK HIM THAT?

NO, I DID NOT.

YOU NEVER ASKED HIM?

I NEVER ASKED HIM THAT, SIR.

WELL, IN YOUR MIND, WAS HE A SUSPECT AT THAT POINT?

NO, HE WAS NOT.

AND YOU NEVER ASKED HIM WHAT TIME HE LEFT LOS ANGELES?

NEVER ASKED HIM WHAT TIME HE LEFT LOS ANGELES.

DO YOU RECALL HIM RESPONDING HE HAD TAKEN THE RED EYE OUT OF LOS ANGELES AT ABOUT 11:45? REMEMBER HIM SAYING THAT AT ANY POINT IN THE CONVERSATION?

NO, SIR.

NOW, AFTER THIS CONVERSATION WE JUST FINISHED TALKING ABOUT, DID YOU SEE MARK FUHRMAN AT SOME POINT AFTER THAT -- THE CONVERSATION WITH MR. O.J. SIMPSON?

YES.

AND WHERE DID YOU NEXT SEE HIM? WHAT ROOM WERE YOU IN WHEN YOU NEXT SAW MARK FUHRMAN?

IN THE BREAKFAST AREA JUST OFF THE KITCHEN. I WAS STANDING BY THE DOORS OR JUST INSIDE THE DOORS.

THAT WAS STILL INSIDE THE HOUSE, IS THAT CORRECT, INSIDE THE --

I DON'T RECALL EXACTLY MY POSITION, WHERE I WAS, BUT IT WAS AROUND THAT AREA.

CAN YOU POINT TO PEOPLE'S 66 FOR IDENTIFICATION, JUST SHOW THE JURY GENERALLY WHERE YOU WERE AT THAT POINT?

SOMEWHERE IN THIS AREA (INDICATING).

ALL RIGHT. AND WHO WERE YOU STANDING THERE WITH, IF ANYONE?

MYSELF.

JUST YOU. WHERE WAS LANGE AND VANNATTER AT THAT POINT, IF YOU KNOW?

I BELIEVE I RECALL VANNATTER WAS TALKING TO MR. KAELIN AND I BELIEVE TOM LANGE WAS STILL TALKING TO ARNELLE SIMPSON.

DID KAELIN COME IN THE HOUSE AT SOME TIME DURING THE TIME YOU WERE TALKING TO MR. O.J. SIMPSON?

I SAW HIM IN THE HOUSE, YES.

SO WOULD HE -- WOULD KATO KAELIN HAVE BEEN WITHIN EARSHOT OF YOUR CONVERSATION WITH O.J. SIMPSON? THE FIRST MINUTE OR SO CONVERSATION WHEN YOU WERE TALKING WITH MR. SIMPSON, WAS HE IN THAT HOUSE THEN?

NO. I THINK HE WAS IN ANOTHER ROOM JUST ADJACENT TO THE KITCHEN WHICH I THINK WAS CALLED THE BAR AREA OR SOMETHING. HE WAS SITTING AT A STOOL OR A BENCH OR SOMETHING IN THAT ROOM.

AND HOW FAR WAS THAT AWAY FROM WHERE YOU WERE HAVING THIS PHONE CONVERSATION?

I DON'T REALLY REMEMBER THE --

WELL, YOUR BEST ESTIMATE.

15 FEET?

SO HE WAS WITHIN EARSHOT OF WHAT WAS GOING ON IF HE WANTED TO LISTEN; IS THAT RIGHT?

DEPENDING ON HOW LOUD I WAS TALKING AND HOW WELL HE WAS LISTENING, HE PROBABLY COULD HAVE HEARD.

WELL, LET'S SEE NOW. I'M ABOUT -- HOW FAR FROM YOU AM I?

I WOULD PROBABLY SAY WE'RE PROBABLY 15 FEET AGAIN.

RIGHT. SO YOU CAN HEAR ME, I CAN HEAR YOU?

YES, SIR.

OKAY. SO ABOUT THAT DISTANCE; IS THAT CORRECT?

OBJECTION. THAT DOESN'T -- THE FACT THEY CAN HEAR EACH OTHER IN THESE CONDITIONS, WHEN THE COURTROOM IS QUIET, NOTHING ELSE IS GOING ON IS IRRELEVANT WITH MICROPHONES.

OVERRULED. THE JURY CAN TAKE THAT INTO CONSIDERATION.

THE JURY HAS EXPERIENCE IN THAT.

THE JURY IS AWARE OF WHAT THE SCENE IS. THE JURY HAS BEEN IN THE KITCHEN.

BUT WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT, HE'S IN THE COURTROOM SPEAKING ON A MICROPHONE. SO IS COUNSEL. THEY WEREN'T SPEAKING ON MICROPHONES THERE.

THE JURY CAN SEE THE MICROPHONE. THE JURY CAN SEE THE MICROPHONE. THEY CAN SEE THE DISTANCE. THEY HAVE THEIR COMMON SENSE AS WE KNOW, RIGHT?

RIGHT.

SO STIPULATED, YOUR HONOR. NO SIDEBARS.

MR. COCHRAN.

THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

WELL, CONTINUE.

BY MR. COCHRAN: ABOUT 15 FEET AWAY FROM YOU, KATO KAELIN WAS SEATED AT A BAR AREA, RIGHT?

GIVE OR TAKE A FEW FEET.

ALL RIGHT. NOW, TELL US WHO ELSE WAS IN THAT ROOM AT THE TIME OF THE CONVERSATION WHEN YOU WERE TALKING TO O.J. SIMPSON. WE NOW KNOW KATO KAELIN WAS 15 FEET AWAY. ARNELLE SIMPSON --

IN ANOTHER ROOM.

OKAY. ANOTHER ROOM 15 FEET AWAY. ARNELLE SIMPSON WAS MAYBE FIVE OR SIX FEET BEHIND YOU TALKING TO TOM LANGE, RIGHT?

YES.

VANNATTER WAS IN THE ROOM SOMEWHERE; IS THAT CORRECT?

I DON'T KNOW WHERE VANNATTER WAS AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME.

ALL RIGHT. ANYBODY ELSE IN THAT ROOM AT THAT TIME THAT YOU KNOW OF?

DID YOU MENTION TOM LANGE?

YES. LANGE WAS TALKING TO ARNELLE?

RIGHT, AND MYSELF.

OKAY. ALL RIGHT. AT SOME POINT THEN, WHEN YOU MOVED OUT BY THE DOORS NEAR THE FRONT OF THE PROPERTY THERE THAT YOU DEPICTED ON PEOPLE'S 66, DID YOU HAVE OCCASION TO HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH MARK FUHRMAN?

YES, SIR.

AND NOW, MARK FUHRMAN CAME UP TO YOU AND TOLD YOU HE HAD MADE SOME DISCOVERY; IS THAT CORRECT?

YES.

AND SO THAT WE'RE CLEAR, IT WAS MARK FUHRMAN WHO ALLEGEDLY FOUND THIS GLOVE OUT THERE NEAR KATO KAELIN'S ROOM, IS THAT CORRECT, OUTSIDE?

YES.

AND IT WAS MARK FUHRMAN WHO ALLEGEDLY FOUND THIS SPOT ON THE OUTSIDE OF THE BRONCO; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

THAT'S CORRECT.

IT WAS MARK FUHRMAN WHO CLIMBED OVER THE WALL, LET THE TWO OF YOU -- THE REST OF YOU IN; IS THAT RIGHT?

THE THREE OF US IN, YES.

THE THREE OF YOU IN. AND AS I UNDERSTAND IT, THE FIRST TIME HE MADE YOU AWARE OF THIS ALLEGED DISCOVERY WAS WHEN YOU WERE STANDING THERE INSIDE THE SIMPSON PREMISES AFTER THE PHONE CONVERSATION; IS THAT CORRECT?

WANT TO REPHRASE THE QUESTION? WHICH DISCOVERY ARE WE TALKING ABOUT?

CERTAINLY.

BY MR. COCHRAN: WITH REGARD TO THE GLOVE, WHERE WERE YOU WHEN MARK FUHRMAN APPROACHED YOU AND TALKED TO YOU ABOUT HIS ALLEGED DISCOVERY OF THE GLOVE?

AS I STATED BEFORE, IN THAT BREAKFAST AREA OFF THE KITCHEN SOMEWHERE RIGHT AROUND THE DOORWAY. I WAS EITHER STANDING INSIDE OR OUTSIDE. I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY WHERE I WAS STANDING.

ALL RIGHT. AND HE APPROACHED YOU AND HE HAD SOME CONVERSATION; IS THAT CORRECT?

YES, SIR.

AND DID HE AT THAT TIME APPROACH VANNATTER AND LANGE WHO WERE NOW THE DETECTIVES ON THE CASE AND TALK TO THEM AT THAT POINT?

I UNDERSTAND THEY WERE IN THE HOUSE. BUT THE QUESTION WAS, DID HE APPROACH THEM AND GO AND TELL THEM ABOUT WHAT HE ALLEGEDLY FOUND?

NO.

HE JUST TOLD YOU AT THIS POINT; IS THAT CORRECT?

YES, SIR.

AND THEN BASED UPON WHAT HE TOLD YOU, IS THAT WHEN YOU CAME AROUND AND WENT OUTSIDE ON THE ROUTE THAT YOU WERE HELPED WITH -- MR. FAIRTLOUGH -- WHERE YOU KIND OF -- WHERE YOU BUMPED INTO THE WALLS HERE (INDICATING)?

YES.

WHEN YOU CAME OUTSIDE THIS DOOR HERE ON PEOPLE'S 66, YOU WALKED AROUND DOWN THIS NARROW AREA DOWN HERE TO THE AREA NEAR THIS WHAT'S MARKED "AIR CONDITIONER" (INDICATING); IS THAT RIGHT?

HE TOLD ME HE WANTED TO SHOW ME SOMETHING AND THAT'S THE ROUTE WE TOOK.

FUHRMAN TOLD YOU HE WANTED TO SHOW YOU SOMETHING AND HE TOOK YOU DOWN THIS PARTICULAR ROUTE; IS THAT CORRECT?

YES, SIR.

WHAT TIME OF THE MORNING WAS THAT?

WELL, I WOULD HAVE TO SAY SOMEWHERE AROUND 6:10, 6:15. IT WAS AFTER THE PHONE CONVERSATION WAS MADE AT 6:05.

ALL RIGHT. SO WITHIN FIVE MINUTES OR SO OF THAT, FIVE OR 10 MINUTES?

SOMEWHERE IN THAT AREA.

THE TWO OF YOU THEN WALKED BACK HERE UNTIL YOU OBSERVED WHAT COUNSEL ASKED YOU ABOUT YESTERDAY, THIS GLOVE THAT WAS SUPPOSEDLY ON THAT WALKWAY; IS THAT CORRECT?

YES, SIR.

BY THE WAY, WHEN YOU WALKED BACK THAT WAY, DID YOU NOTICE THAT THERE WERE BERRIES BACK THERE ALSO IN THIS AREA? REMEMBER SEEING -- I'M INTO BERRIES. SO BEAR WITH ME. DID YOU NOTICE BERRIES BACK THERE ON THAT WALKWAY?

YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE SAID THAT, MR. COCHRAN. PEOPLE ARE GOING TO START SENDING YOU BERRIES.

NO. PLEASE DON'T.

BY MR. COCHRAN: DID YOU NOTICE BERRIES BACK ON THAT WALKWAY?

I KNOW THERE WAS A LOT OF DEBRIS. THERE WAS LEAVES, THERE WAS TWIGS, THERE WAS A LOT OF DEBRIS FROM PLANTS AND SO FORTH. TO TELL YOU THAT I REMEMBER A BERRY BEING BACK THERE, I DO NOT REMEMBER ANY BERRIES.

ALL RIGHT. YOU WERE LOOKING AT OTHER THINGS. AND I WANT TO SHOW YOU A PICTURE. I WOULD LIKE TO MARK THAT -- I'M GOING TO SHOW THIS TO COUNSEL FIRST.

MISS ROBERTSON, WHAT'S THE NEXT EXHIBIT?

1025.

YOUR HONOR, I WOULD LIKE TO MARK THESE TWO PHOTOGRAPHS AFTER I CONFIRM WITH COUNSEL.

1025.

I WILL MARK THE FIRST ONE 1025. AND I'VE SHOWN THOSE TO COUNSEL. AND I WOULD LIKE TO MARK THE NEXT ONE 1026.

MAY I APPROACH, YOUR HONOR?

YOU MAY.

BY MR. COCHRAN: I WOULD LIKE TO SHOW YOU WHAT I HAVE SHOWN TO COUNSEL HERE AS DEFENDANT'S NEXT IN ORDER, 1025 AND 1026.

I WOULD LIKE TO PLACE FIRST BEFORE YOU EXHIBIT -- DEFENSE EXHIBIT 1025 AND ASK YOU TO TAKE A LOOK AT THAT AND SEE WHETHER OR NOT THAT IS A FAIR REPRESENTATION OF THE WAY THIS GLOVE WAS ALLEGEDLY FOUND ON THE EARLY MORNING HOURS AT ABOUT 6:15 ON JUNE 13TH, 1994.

WELL, IT'S A LOT CLOSER THAN I EVER GOT TO IT, BUT I WOULD SAY THAT THAT'S AS CLOSE AS I CAN REMEMBER WHAT IT LOOKED LIKE FROM THE THREE OR FOUR FEET I GOT TO IT.

AND AS YOU -- YOU GOT WITHIN THREE OR FOUR FEET OF IT?

YES, SIR.

AS YOU LOOKED AT THAT PARTICULAR GLOVE, DID YOU SEE ANY BLOOD OR ANYTHING AROUND THE GLOVE?

I NEVER GOT CLOSE ENOUGH TO IT TO REALLY EXAMINE IT, SIR. I JUST LOOKED AT IT AND SAID, "WELL, YOU OUGHT TO INFORM VANNATTER AND LANGE OF THIS," AND WE WALKED BACK -- I DID NOT WALK UP TO IT AND EXAMINE IT.

YOU GOT WITHIN THREE OR FOUR FEET OF IT; IS THAT CORRECT?

YES.

DID YOU SEE ANY BLOOD DROPS OR ANYTHING LEADING TO THAT GLOVE ON THE FOLIAGE THAT'S THERE DEPICTED IN DEFENDANT'S 1025?

I DID NOT NOTICE ANY.

AND WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE BACK THERE AT THAT TIME AT 6:00 O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING THROUGH NATURAL LIGHT OR DID YOU HAVE TO USE YOUR FLASHLIGHTS?

WE USED A FLASHLIGHT AS I SAID, BECAUSE THE FOLIAGE WAS KEEPING THIS AREA DARKER THAN WAS DIRECT SUNLIGHT OR DIRECT, YOU KNOW, DAWN COMING UP. SO IT WAS DARKER THAN LET'S SAY IN FRONT OF THE HOUSE WHERE THERE WERE NO TREES.

ALL RIGHT. SO IT WAS DARK STILL ON THE SIDE OF THAT HOUSE. DID YOU USE YOUR FLASHLIGHT ON SOMEONE ELSE'S FLASHLIGHT?

I HAD MY OWN.

YOU GOT WITHIN FOUR OR FIVE FEET AWAY, YOU SHINED YOUR FLASHLIGHT AND THIS IS BASICALLY WHAT YOU SAW; IS THAT CORRECT?

YES.

IN 1025?

SAW A GLOVE LYING THERE.

THERE WAS A FENCE TO THE SIDE OF THIS KIND OF NARROW WALKWAY? IT'S A NARROW WALKWAY; IS IT NOT?

YES, SIR.

AND THERE'S A FENCE NEXT TO IT, KIND OF -- HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THAT FENCE?

CYCLONE CHAIN LINK FENCE.

DID IT HAVE LIKE A WIRE THING ACROSS THE TOP OF IT? REMEMBER LOOKING AT THE TOP OF THAT FENCE?

A WIRE THING ACROSS?

THAT'S PROBABLY NOT VERY ARTFULLY DESCRIBED, YOUR HONOR.

BY MR. COCHRAN: WAS IT A TYPICAL CHAIN LINK FENCE THAT HAS LIKE POINTED WIRES ON THE TOP OF THE FENCE?

YOU MEAN THE TWISTS AT THE TOP?

YES. THE TWISTS, YOUR HONOR, TWISTED WIRES AT THE TOP.

THE THING THAT MAKES IT HARDER TO CLIMB OVER.

THAT'S RIGHT, YOUR HONOR.

BY MR. COCHRAN: ALL THAT DESCRIPTION AND YOU DON'T REMEMBER?

I DIDN'T WANT TO INTERRUPT YOU AND THE JUDGE.

ALL RIGHT. SO YOU DON'T REMEMBER. IT WAS A CHAIN LINK FENCE, RIGHT?

YES.

IN ADDITION TO THAT, SEE THIS BLUE OBJECT HERE? REMEMBER SEEING THAT WHEN YOU SHINED YOUR FLASHLIGHT DOWN THERE?

NO, SIR.

YOU NEVER SAW THAT BLUE OBJECT AT ALL?

NO.

WERE YOU EVER AWARE WHETHER OR NOT THAT OBJECT WAS BOOKED AT ALL IN EVIDENCE?

I BELIEVE I WAS TOLD THAT IT WAS. I DID NOT SEE IT THAT MORNING.

AND I AM GOING TO SHOW YOU NOW 1026. AND FROM WHAT YOU'VE SAID, THERE IS AN EVIDENCE MARKER BY 1026. IS THAT A FURTHER INDICATION THAT BLUE OBJECT WAS BOOKED AT SOME POINT?

I WOULD HAVE TO ASSUME THAT IT WAS BOOKED, YES.

AND IN 1026, IS THAT A PRETTY FAIR APPROXIMATION OF THE WAY THE FOLIAGE -- THAT THAT GROUND WAS PRETTY MUCH COVERED WITH FOLIAGE BACK THERE?

YEAH. THAT'S HOW MOST OF THE AREA LOOKED BACK THERE. ALL HAD LEAVES AND DEBRIS ON THE GROUND FROM THE FOLIAGE AND THE TREE.

FROM THE TREES FALLING DOWN, RIGHT?

YES, SIR.

IT'S A FAIRLY ACCURATE PHOTOGRAPH THEN. NOW, SO --

EXCUSE ME. MR. COCHRAN, DO YOU WANT TO SHOW THOSE TO THE JURY ON THE ELMO?

YES, I WOULD LIKE TO, YOUR HONOR. IF COUNSEL HAS NO OBJECTION, I'LL PUT IT ON THE ELMO. WHATEVER THE COURT'S PLEASURE. WHATEVER YOUR PLEASURE. I CAN JUST PASS THEM. SHALL I PASS THEM?

LET'S USE THE ELMO.

ELMO? FINE. FIRST OF ALL, WE'LL SHOW WHAT THE OFFICER'S BEEN DESCRIBING, YOUR HONOR, AS 1025, DEFENDANT'S 1025.

I THINK IT'S ACTUALLY THE OTHER WAY, ISN'T IT?

I THINK IT'S THE OTHER WAY.

THE FENCE IS TO THE RIGHT.

YEAH.

BY MR. COCHRAN: THIS IS A FAIR APPROXIMATION OF WHAT YOU SAW WHEN YOU GOT WITHIN FOUR TO FIVE FEET WITH YOUR FLASHLIGHT; IS THAT CORRECT?

YES, SIR.

AND YOU WERE FOUR TO FIVE FEET IN FRONT OF THIS --

OBJECTION. THAT MISSTATES THE TESTIMONY. I THOUGHT THE WITNESS SAID THREE TO FOUR.

FOUR TO FIVE. HE SAID FOUR TO FIVE.

I SAID THREE TO FOUR:

BY MR. COCHRAN: THREE TO FOUR? WHAT DID YOU SAY?

THREE TO FOUR.

ALL RIGHT. THREE TO FOUR. AND THE BLUE OBJECT TO THE RIGHT, YOU HAD NOT SEEN THAT THAT MORNING?

I HAD NOT SEEN IT.

AND THERE'S THE CHAIN LINK FENCE TO THE RIGHT; IS THAT RIGHT?

YES, SIR.

ALL RIGHT?

AND 1026, YOUR HONOR.

BY MR. COCHRAN: AND AGAIN, DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, 1026 AGAIN IS A CLOSE-UP OF THE CHAIN LINK FENCE WITH SOME KIND OF A CARD NUMBERING WHICH LED YOU TO BELIEVE THAT BLUE OBJECT WAS SOMEHOW BOOKED INTO EVIDENCE; IS THAT CORRECT?

YES.

THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

BY MR. COCHRAN: NOW, SO AFTER YOU MADE THESE OBSERVATIONS -- BY THE WAY, DID YOU -- STRIKE THAT. WHILE YOU WERE THERE, DID YOU EVER GET CLOSER THAN THE THREE OR FOUR FEET AND EVER REACH DOWN AND TRY TO PICK THIS ITEM UP?

I NEVER WENT BACK THERE AGAIN, SIR.

ALL RIGHT. NOW, AFTER YOU -- FUHRMAN DECIDED TO TELL YOU ABOUT IT FIRST, DID YOU THEN WALK BACK INTO THE HOUSE WITH HIM AT THAT POINT?

YES.

AND DID YOU SEE HIM GO AND TALK TO ANY OTHER POLICE OFFICERS THAT MORNING?

I BELIEVE I SAW HIM WALK UP TO VANNATTER AT THAT TIME AND --

ALL RIGHT. WITHOUT TELLING US WHAT HE SAID TO VANNATTER, AFTER, DID HE HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH VANNATTER? DID FUHRMAN HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH VANNATTER?

YES.

AND DID AT SOME POINT YOU SEE VANNATTER LEAVE THE SIMPSON RESIDENCE AND GO SOMEPLACE?

WITH DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, YES.

WITH DETECTIVE FUHRMAN? DID YOU GO ALONG WITH HIM?

NO, SIR.

ALL RIGHT. HOW LONG WERE THEY GONE, IF YOU KNOW?

I DIDN'T PAY MUCH ATTENTION TO IT. I WOULD SAY MAYBE FIVE MINUTES.

ALL RIGHT. AND THEN AT SOME POINT, DID YOU SEE VANNATTER COME BACK?

YES, SIR.

DID YOU SEE AT SOME POINT FUHRMAN TALK TO DETECTIVE LANGE?

YES.

AND DID AT SOME POINT LANGE AND FUHRMAN LEAVE YOUR PRESENCE?

YES.

DID YOU STAY IN THE HOUSE DURING THIS TIME?

I THINK I WAS OUT IN THE FRONT STANDING AROUND.

ALL RIGHT. JUST STANDING AROUND?

JUST STANDING AROUND.

YOU DID A LOT OF THAT THAT MORNING, DIDN'T YOU?

DID IT ALL DAY.

DID LANGE AND FUHRMAN LEAVE YOUR PRESENCE AT SOME POINT? WERE THEY ABLE TO LEAVE YOUR SIDE?

YES, SIR.

DID YOU SEE THEM COME BACK AT SOME POINT?

YES, SIR.

WAS THERE A PHOTOGRAPHER THERE AT THAT POINT? WAS MR. ROKAHR, THE PHOTOGRAPHER, THERE AT THAT POINT?

NO, SIR.

ALL RIGHT. NOW, AFTER THAT, AFTER LANGE AND FUHRMAN CAME BACK, HOW MUCH LONGER DID YOU REMAIN AT THIS ROCKINGHAM RESIDENCE BEFORE YOU LEFT?

JUST A FEW MINUTES.

AND YOU WERE STANDING OUTSIDE, AND AT SOME POINT YOU LEFT. DID YOU LEAVE WITH FUHRMAN IN THE SAME VEHICLE YOU CAME IN?

YES, SIR.

BY THE TIME YOU LEFT, HAD OFFICERS GONZALEZ AND ASHTON ARRIVED, THE MOTOR OFFICERS IN THE BLACK AND WHITE VEHICLE? HAD THEY ARRIVED AT THAT POINT?

THE MOTOR OFFICERS?

NOT THE MOTOR OFFICERS. THE BLACK AND WHITE PATROL OFFICERS.

YES.

AND YOU HAD ASKED THAT THEY COME OVER THERE; IS THAT CORRECT?

THEY HAD ARRIVED BEFORE WE EVER ENTERED THE ESTATE.

THEY WERE THERE BEFORE FUHRMAN CLIMBED OVER THE WALL, RIGHT?

YES, SIR.

WERE THEY OUTSIDE OR WERE THEY INSIDE AT THIS POINT?

OUTSIDE.

WHEN YOU SAY OUTSIDE, THEY WERE OUTSIDE ON THE STREET STILL?

YES, SIR. THEIR POSITION WAS TO WATCH THE BRONCO.

ALL RIGHT. DID THEY -- THEY DIDN'T COME INSIDE THE HOUSE AT THAT POINT?

I DIDN'T -- I NEVER SAW THEM GO INTO THE HOUSE.

ALL RIGHT. BY THIS POINT, WHEN YOU WERE OUTSIDE, AFTER LANGE AND FUHRMAN WENT SOMEPLACE, HAD MR. A.C. COWLINGS ARRIVED YET?

I DON'T REMEMBER WHEN A.C. COWLINGS ARRIVED. I KNOW HE ARRIVED SHORTLY AFTER ARNELLE HAD CALLED HIM, BUT IF HE ARRIVED WHILE THIS WAS GOING ON OR AFTER THIS WAS GOING ON OR DURING THIS WAS GOING ON, I CAN'T REMEMBER.

LET ME ASK YOU THIS QUESTION. DID MR. COWLINGS ARRIVE BEFORE YOU LEFT TO GO BACK TO BUNDY?

YES, SIR. AS I SAID, ARNELLE INTRODUCED ME TO HIM AND I MADE THE PHONE CALL THAT THEY SHOULD PICK UP THE CHILDREN.

SO AT ANY RATE, HE ARRIVED BEFORE YOU LEFT. AND WHAT TIME DID YOU LEAVE?

I WOULD IMAGINE WE LEFT SOMEWHERE AROUND 6:30.

ALL RIGHT. SO HE WAS THERE BEFORE THAT TIME; IS THAT CORRECT?

YES, SIR.

ALL RIGHT. AND THEN YOU MENTIONED THAT OFFICERS ASHTON AND GONZALEZ WERE WATCHING THE BRONCO; IS THAT CORRECT?

YES.

WAS THE BRONCO IMPOUNDED AT THAT POINT?

IT WAS NOT IMPOUNDED, NO.

ALL RIGHT. AND SO THEY WERE JUST STANDING THERE WATCHING IT; IS THAT CORRECT?

YES, SIR.

DO YOU KNOW WHETHER OR NOT THEY KEPT PEOPLE AWAY FROM THAT BRONCO?

I HAVE NO IDEA. I LEFT THE LOCATION.

SO YOU -- HAD YOU EVER SEEN ANY PICTURES OF PEOPLE PEERING IN THE WINDOW OF THAT BRONCO?

NO, SIR.

NEVER SEEN SUCH A PICTURE?

I HAVEN'T SEEN ANY PICTURES OTHER THAN WHAT I'VE SEEN IN COURT, SIR.

ALL RIGHT. WHEN YOU LEFT, THEY WERE STILL OUTSIDE WHERE THE BRONCO WAS AND YOU AND MARK FUHRMAN LEFT AND THEN WENT BACK WHERE?

TO BUNDY.

AND YOU ARRIVED BACK AT BUNDY AT ABOUT WHAT TIME?

WITHIN FIVE MINUTES AFTER LEAVING.

AND WHAT TIME DID YOU GET BACK?

I WOULD SAY WE GOT BACK SOMEWHERE AROUND 6:35.

WELL, IN LOOKING AT THE LOG HERE -- AND I THINK WE MAY HAVE COVERED THIS BRIEFLY -- THERE'S NO INDICATION THAT YOU EVER LEFT --

OBJECTION. ASKED AND ANSWERED.

OVERRULED.

BY MR. COCHRAN: THERE'S NO INDICATION THAT YOU EVER LEFT BUNDY TO GO TO ROCKINGHAM, IS THERE?

NO, THERE'S NOT.

THAT WAS YOUR FAULT, WASN'T IT?

YES, IT WAS.

SO WE KNOW YOU GOT BACK THEN BY 6:40, SOMEWHERE IN THAT AREA, 6:45; IS THAT RIGHT?

6:35.

ALL RIGHT. DID YOU CHECK IN WITH CUMMINGS AT THAT POINT?

NO, I DIDN'T.

ALL RIGHT. WHEN YOU WENT BACK OVER THERE, YOU JUST CONTINUED STANDING AROUND?

I WALKED OVER TO THE LIEUTENANTS AND THE CAPTAINS TO LET THEM KNOW WHAT HAD HAPPENED UP AT ROCKINGHAM AND --

WERE THEY STILL JUST STANDING AROUND?

YES, SIR.

THERE WAS A LOT OF STANDING AROUND. I WOULD LIKE TO APPROACH. I WOULD LIKE TO ASK YOU IF YOU WOULD HELP US WITH THE NUMBER OF OFFICERS WHO WERE THERE STANDING AROUND AND FROM THE TIME THEY GOT THERE. CAN WE DO THAT?

WELL, I CAN'T TELL YOU WHAT THE OFFICERS WERE DOING. AS FAR AS STANDING AROUND, EVERYBODY WAS AT A FIXED POST GUARDING THE CRIME SCENE. WHEN I SAY PEOPLE THAT I WALKED UP TO STANDING AROUND, THIS WAS MY SUPERVISOR AND THE COMMANDING OFFICER OF THE DIVISION THAT WE HAD NOT ASSIGNED TO A FIXED POST TO GUARD SOMETHING.

OKAY. SO WHEN YOU SAID GUARD SOMETHING, WERE THEY GUARDING THIS TAPE THAT WAS AROUND THE PERIMETER THERE?

WELL, BOTH ENDS OF THE ALLEY, BOTH ENDS OF THE STREET IN FRONT OF THE LOCATION.

ALL RIGHT. NOW, FROM THE TIME RISKE GOT THERE AT 12:15, THE TIME YOU GOT BACK AT 6:35 OR THEREABOUTS, HOW MANY OFFICERS WOULD YOU ESTIMATE FROM THE LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT WERE IN AND AROUND THAT BUNDY SCENE DURING THAT TIME FRAME? WOULD THE LOG ASSIST YOU --

OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.

LET ME FINISH THE QUESTION.

BY MR. COCHRAN: WOULD THE LOG ASSIST YOU IN DETERMINING THAT?

OBJECTION. COMPOUND AND IRRELEVANT.

COMPOUND.

MAY I APPROACH, YOUR HONOR?

BY MR. COCHRAN: I'M GOING TO APPROACH AND ASK YOU TO LOOK WITH ME IN THE LOG AND SEE IF WE CAN DETERMINE HOW MANY POLICE OFFICERS HAD COME OUT TO THE SCENE THERE BETWEEN 12:15, RISKE'S ARRIVAL, AND THE TIME THAT YOU GOT BACK, YOU AND FUHRMAN GOT BACK THERE AT 6:35. WHY DON'T YOU READ IT TO YOURSELF AND SEE IF YOU CAN COUNT THEM UP AS BEST AS YOU RECALL.

NOT COUNTING DETECTIVES.

LET'S COUNT THE DETECTIVES TOO. THEY'RE ALL LAPD OFFICERS. LET'S COUNT EVERYBODY.

PROBABLY 28.

ABOUT 28 POLICE OFFICERS? AND BASICALLY AT THIS POINT, WERE THESE 28 OFFICERS -- AT 6:35, THE FIRST CALL, THE CORONER HAD NOT GONE OUT; IS THAT CORRECT?

THAT'S CORRECT.

CRIMINALIST HAD NOT BEEN CALLED?

I DON'T KNOW THAT.

WELL, LET'S LOOK AT THIS AND LET'S SEE THE LOG WHEN FUNG WAS CALLED.

OBJECTION TO THE LOG. THAT WOULD NOT REFLECT --

I DON'T KNOW. THAT WOULD ONLY TELL US WHEN HE ARRIVED, SIR. IT WOULDN'T TELL ME WHEN HE CALLED.

SUSTAINED.

OKAY. COUNSEL IS ABSOLUTELY CORRECT, YOUR HONOR.

BY MR. COCHRAN: LET'S LOOK AND SEE WHEN FUNG ARRIVED.

WELL, OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. THAT'S ONLY AS TO BUNDY.

WELL, I WANT TO SEE -- I'M TALKING ABOUT BUNDY AT THIS POINT.

ALL RIGHT. OVERRULED.

I'M TALKING ABOUT BUNDY.

MAY I IMPOSE ANOTHER OBJECTION? THIS WITNESS -- COUNSEL IS ATTEMPTING TO REFRESH HIS RECOLLECTION. THERE'S NO INDICATION HE EVER KNEW. THIS IS NOT THE CORRECT WITNESS FOR THIS TESTIMONY.

ALL RIGHT. OVERRULED. IF HE CAN REFRESH HIS RECOLLECTION FROM THIS, YES OR NO.

WELL, I BELIEVE THE FIRST TIME IT SHOWS HIM ON THE LOG IS --

WAIT, WAIT, WAIT.

OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.

WAIT. DO YOU KNOW FROM YOUR OWN RECOLLECTION WHEN THE CRIMINALIST, MR. FUNG, ARRIVED AT THE BUNDY ADDRESS?

NO, I DON'T.

DOES THAT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION?

ONLY IN WHAT IT SAYS, THAT HE ARRIVED --

NO. I'M NOT ASKING YOU WHAT THE DOCUMENT SAYS. I'M ASKING YOU, DOES THAT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION?

NO.

ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU. NEXT QUESTION.

BY MR. COCHRAN: DID FUNG EVER COME WHILE YOU WERE THERE AT 10:00 O'CLOCK THAT MORNING?

I SAW MR. FUNG THERE DURING THAT DAYTIME, YES. I DO NOT KNOW WHAT TIME IT WAS THAT I FIRST SAW HIM.

BUT YOU WERE THERE OFF AND ON DURING THE DAY, RIGHT?

YES, SIR.

AND YOU LEFT, ACCORDING TO THE LOG, BY 10:00 O'CLOCK A.M. TO GO SOMEPLACE, RIGHT?

YES.

FUNG HAD NOT ARRIVED AT THAT POINT; IS THAT CORRECT?

I DON'T RECALL SEEING HIM.

ALL RIGHT. BUT YOU SAW HIM LATER IN THE DAY WHEN YOU CAME BACK TO THE LOCATION; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

YES.

BECAUSE THE CORONER CAME AT ABOUT 9:10; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

YES.

AND WHEN THE CORONER CAME, FUNG WAS NOT THERE; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

I DON'T KNOW IF FUNG WAS THERE.

YOU DON'T REMEMBER SEEING HIM, DO YOU?

I DON'T REMEMBER SEEING HIM.

ALL RIGHT. THESE 28 LAPD OFFICERS WHO WERE THERE THOUGH, THEY HAD VARIOUS AND SUNDRY RESPONSIBILITIES; IS THAT CORRECT?

MOST OF THEM DID.

IN THE COURSE OF THE PEOPLE THAT YOU TALKED TO THAT MORNING, DID YOU EVER, EITHER WHEN YOU CAME BACK AT 6:35 OR EARLIER, TALK TO ANY OF THE OFFICERS THERE ABOUT TRYING TO ESTABLISH THE TIME OF DEATH OF THESE TWO BODIES?

NO, SIR.

NOW, WHEN YOU CAME BACK THAT AFTERNOON, DID YOU SEE MISS MARCIA CLARK AT THE SCENE THERE AT BUNDY OR ROCKINGHAM -- AT BUNDY?

I DON'T RECALL IF I EVER SAW MISS CLARK AT THE BUNDY LOCATION. I BELIEVE I MAY HAVE SEEN HER AT THE ROCKINGHAM LOCATION.

WELL, WOULD IT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION TO LOOK AT THE CRIME SCENE LOG REGARDING BUNDY?

NO, SIR.

THAT WON'T REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION?

I DON'T RECALL SEEING MARCIA CLARK AT THE BUNDY LOCATION.

DO YOU EVER RECALL SEEING HER THERE TALKING TO MARK FUHRMAN OUTSIDE?

AT THE BUNDY LOCATION?

AT ROCKINGHAM. DID YOU SEE --

AS I SAID, I SAW HER AT THE ROCKINGHAM LOCATION, NOT AT THE BUNDY LOCATION.

OKAY. ALL RIGHT. WHAT TIME WAS THAT THAT YOU SAW HER AT THE ROCKINGHAM LOCATION?

I WOULD HAVE NO IDEA, REMEMBERING THAT TIME.

WOULD IT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION SEEING THE CRIME SCENE LOG REGARDING THAT?

NO. IT WOULD NOT TELL ME WHAT TIME I SAW THEM.

BUT YOU REMEMBER SEEING HER; IS THAT CORRECT?

YES, SIR.

NOW, DO YOU KNOW -- ALTHOUGH I KNOW YOU WERE NO LONGER THE INVESTIGATING OFFICER ON THE CASE -- HOW LONG THAT THE BUNDY LOCATION REMAINED A CRIME SCENE BEFORE THE TAPES WERE TAKEN DOWN?

YES. I THINK IT WAS RIGHT AROUND -- THAT I WOULD HAVE TO LOOK AT THE LOG TO BE SURE, BUT I THINK IT WAS AROUND 3:00 TO 3:30 IN THE AFTERNOON.

ALL RIGHT. WOULD IT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION TO SEE THE LOG?

YES, SIR.

I WOULD LIKE YOU TO LOOK AT THE LOG FIRST, TELL US HOW LONG IT REMAINED AT THE CRIME SCENE. SEE IF THAT REFRESHES YOUR RECOLLECTION, SIR.

WELL, IT'S 3 SOMETHING IN THE AFTERNOON. IT'S NOT VERY CLEAR. I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S -- I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THOSE NUMBERS ARE. 1500 IS 3:00 IN THE AFTERNOON. SO IT WAS AFTER THAT.

DOES THAT COMFORT WITH YOUR MEMORY, SOMETIME AFTER 3:00 O'CLOCK IN THE AFTERNOON?

YES.

AND WHEN IT WAS NO LONGER A CRIME SCENE, TELL US WHAT THAT MEANS.

MEANS THAT THE YELLOW TAPE IS TAKEN DOWN, IT'S NO LONGER AN LAPD CRIME SCENE AND WE NO LONGER HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT. IT'S -- BASICALLY WE LEAVE IT.

AND PEOPLE ARE FREE TO COME AND GO AT THAT SCENE AT THAT POINT?

YES. WE NO LONGER HAVE ANY CONTROL OVER THAT CRIME SCENE.

AND IF EVIDENCE HAD NOT BEEN GATHERED BY THAT POINT, THERE'S A GREAT CHANCE THAT EVIDENCE COULD BE SOMEHOW COMPROMISED --

OBJECTION. CALLING FOR SPECULATION.

WELL, LET ME FINISH THE QUESTION. MAYBE SHE WON'T OBJECT. I DOUBT IT, BUT LET ME SEE.

BY MR. COCHRAN: IF THE CRIME SCENE WAS DETERMINED NOT TO BE A CRIME SCENE SOMETIME AFTER 3:00 O'CLOCK IN THE AFTERNOON AND IF EVIDENCE HAD NOT BEEN COLLECTED BY THAT POINT, WAS COLLECTED LET'S SAY THREE WEEKS LATER ON JULY 3RD, THERE IS A GOOD CHANCE, IS IT NOT, THAT THAT EVIDENCE MAY HAVE BEEN COMPROMISED BY PEOPLE WHO WERE FREE TO COME AND GO ON THOSE PREMISES AFTER THE CRIME SCENE WAS RELEASED?

SUSTAINED. SUSTAINED.

THANK YOU.

OKAY.

BY MR. COCHRAN: DO YOU KNOW WHEN THE BLOOD WAS WASHED AWAY OR WASHED DOWN FROM THIS PARTICULAR CRIME SCENE?

NO, SIR.

NOW, YOU DESCRIBED I THINK YESTERDAY THAT AT SOME POINT, THE PRESS APPEARED OUT THERE ABOUT 7:30 IN THE MORNING, IS THAT CORRECT, ON JUNE 13TH?

SOMEWHERE LATER IN THE MORNING, 7:30, 8:00 O'CLOCK, SOMEWHERE AROUND THAT TIME.

ALL RIGHT. AND SO WHEN THEY ARRIVED AT 7:30 OR 8:00 O'CLOCK, DID YOU SEE THEM WITH CAMERAS AS THE PRESS WILL OFTEN TIMES HAVE?

YES, SIR.

AND DID YOU SEE THEM TAKING PICTURES?

I WASN'T PAYING ANY ATTENTION TO THEM.

BUT DO YOU THINK THEY WERE TAKING PICTURES?

I WOULD ASSUME THEY WOULD BE.

WITH POWERFUL LENSES?

I WASN'T PAYING ATTENTION TO THEIR LENSES.

ALL RIGHT. SO FROM 7:30 ON THEREABOUTS WHEN THE PRESS ARRIVED, YOU WERE AWARE THEY WERE THERE AND THERE WAS SOME INTEREST IN WHAT WAS GOING ON AT THIS PARTICULAR CRIME SCENE; IS THAT CORRECT?

THE INTEREST RATE WAS ESCALATING RAPIDLY.

ALL RIGHT. AND SO BETWEEN 7:30 A.M. AND THEN 10:00 O'CLOCK WHEN YOU FIRST TOOK YOUR LEAVE FROM -- WHEN YOU TOOK YOUR LEAVE FROM THE BUNDY LOCATION, THERE WAS INCREASING AND INCREASING PRESS PRESENCE. IS THAT A FAIR STATEMENT?

THERE WAS A TREMENDOUS PRESS INTEREST.

AT SOME POINT, AFTER YOU AND FUHRMAN CAME BACK TO THE BUNDY LOCATION, DID YOU SEE VANNATTER AND LANGE BACK AT THAT LOCATION?

TOM LANGE SHOWED BACK UP SHORTLY THEREAFTER.

AND DO YOU KNOW WHAT TIME IT WAS HE GOT BACK APPROXIMATELY?

6:40, 6:35, 6:40, 6:45, SOMEWHERE IN THAT AREA.

A SHORT TIME AFTER YOU GOT THERE, RIGHT?

YES.

AND THAT SHOULD BE INDICATED ON THIS LOG, SHOULD IT NOT; THAT HE HAD LEFT AND GONE TO ROCKINGHAM AND THEN CAME BACK?

IF IT WAS DONE ABSOLUTELY PROPERLY AND HE CHECKED OUT AND CHECKED BACK IN, THEN IT SHOULD BE THERE.

AND IF HE DIDN'T DO THAT, IT WON'T BE ON THERE, RIGHT?

THAT'S TRUE.

NOW, DID YOU DO -- WHAT IF ANYTHING DID YOU DO BETWEEN 7:00 O'CLOCK A.M. -- AFTER YOU MADE THIS FIRST CALL TO THE CORONER, YOU WERE ASSISTING TOM -- AND WE HEARD THAT YESTERDAY -- DID YOU DO ANYTHING AT THAT SCENE WITH REGARD TO ESTABLISHING THE TIME OF DEATH BETWEEN THE TIME THAT YOU CONCLUDED YOUR PHONE CALL WITH THE CORONER'S OFFICE SHORTLY AFTER 6:50 IN THE MORNING UNTIL THE TIME YOU MADE THE NEXT CALL AT 8:08 IN THE MORNING?

I DID NOTHING IN THAT CRIME SCENE INVESTIGATION WHATSOEVER, MR. COCHRAN.

ALL RIGHT. AND WHEN YOU MADE THE SECOND CALL TO THE CORONER AT 8:08 AND PRIOR TO THE CORONER'S COMING AT 9:10, SAME ANSWER WOULD PERTAIN; YOU DID NOTHING?

I DID NOTHING.

AT THIS POINT, YOU WERE ASSISTING, AS YOU'VE INDICATED TO US, TOM LANGE IN GETTING THE CORONER THERE, RIGHT?

WHEN HE ASKED ME TO MAKE A PHONE CALL, I DID FOR HIM.

AND THEN AT SOME POINT, YOU SAW REPRESENTATIVES FROM THE CORONER'S OFFICE ARRIVE AT THE BUNDY LOCATION; IS THAT CORRECT?

YES.

AND WE ESTABLISHED THAT WAS ABOUT 9:10 IN THE MORNING. AND DO YOU KNOW THE NAMES OF THE PEOPLE WHO CAME OUT?

I KNOW THAT THE FEMALE INVESTIGATOR, I BELIEVE HER NAME WAS RATCLIFFE OR RATLIFFE -- RATCLIFFE I BELIEVE. I DO NOT KNOW WHO THE ASSISTANT WAS.

THERE WERE TWO PEOPLE; IS THAT CORRECT?

YES.

A MALE AND A FEMALE?

YES.

WERE THEY BOTH AFRICAN AMERICANS, DO YOU RECALL?

I DON'T KNOW THAT.

BUT THERE WERE TWO PEOPLE THAT CAME OUT FROM THE CORONER'S OFFICE?

YES.

DO YOU RECALL, WERE YOU STILL PRESENT WHEN THE BODIES WERE REMOVED FROM THAT LOCATION, SIR?

I WAS STILL AT THE BUNDY LOCATION, YES.

WHEN THE BODIES WERE REMOVED?

YES.

CAN YOU TELL US WHAT TIME THEY WERE REMOVED, SIR?

NO.

WOULD A REVIEW OF THE LOG AT ALL REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION IN THAT REGARD?

I DON'T KNOW WHO PUT THE ENTRY INTO THE LOG. I DO NOT KNOW WHAT TIME THE BODIES WERE REMOVED.

YOU LEFT AT 10:00 O'CLOCK?

THE LOG SAYS I LEFT SOMETIME AT 10:00 O'CLOCK.

WELL, WHEN DID YOU LEAVE?

I DON'T RECALL WHAT TIME I LEFT. I WASN'T LOOKING AT MY CLOCK EVERY TIME I LEFT AND WENT AND DID SOMETHING AND LOOKED AT IT WHEN I CAME BACK.

ALL RIGHT. WHAT WAS YOUR BEST ESTIMATE OF THE TIME YOU LEFT FOR ANY APPRECIABLE PERIOD OF TIME THAT MORNING, SIR?

I WOULD HAVE NO WAY OF KNOWING.

OKAY. WHAT IS YOUR BEST ESTIMATE OF THE TIME THE BODIES WERE TAKEN OUT OF THERE BY THE CORONER'S OFFICE?

I DON'T RECALL THAT EITHER.

DO YOU RECALL SEEING FUNG THERE AT A TIME WHEN THE BODIES WERE STILL THERE?

AS I PREVIOUSLY STATED, I DON'T RECALL EVER SEEING FUNG AT THE BUNDY LOCATION.

MAY I HAVE JUST A SECOND, YOUR HONOR?

YES.

MAY I HAVE JUST A MOMENT, YOUR HONOR? IN AN EFFORT TO AVOID A SIDEBAR, MAY I TALK TO COUNSEL?

CERTAINLY.