Cross-examination of Ron Phillips (part 5)

📄 Cross-examination of Ron Phillips (part 5) — Thursday, February 16, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\FEB\16\CROSS-EXAMINATION-OF-RON-PHILL.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 20 of 167

◀ Sidebar: photograph foundation Sidebar: document admissibility ▶

Witness: Det. Ronald Phillips
Examiner: Johnnie Cochran
Called by: Prosecution • Date: Thursday, February 16, 1995 • Utterances: 436

Johnnie Cochran cross-examines Detective Phillips, pressing him on Fuhrman's field notes, the theory that a suspect was bitten by the Akita, and the decision to leave the Bundy crime scene (bodies unattended, no coroner or criminalist called) so that all four detectives could drive to Rockingham to notify O.J. Simpson. Cochran also challenges the 'VIP notification' protocol — pointing out Simpson was not next of kin — and methodically walks through Phillips's cell phone records to account for every call made that night.

# 1 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT, IN THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)

# 2 THE COURT:

LET THE RECORD REFLECT WE'VE BEEN REJOINED BY ALL OF OUR JURY MEMBERS. DETECTIVE PHILLIPS IS STILL ON THE WITNESS STAND. GOOD AFTERNOON AGAIN, DETECTIVE PHILLIPS. YOU ARE REMINDED YOU ARE STILL UNDER OATH. MR. COCHRAN, YOU MAY CONTINUE YOUR CROSS-EXAMINATION.

# 3 MR. COCHRAN:

THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR. JUST ANOTHER QUESTION OR TWO ABOUT 48-F, IF I COULD HAVE IT BACK UP.

# 4 Q:

BY MR. COCHRAN: DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, WHEN YOU SAW THAT AREA ON THE WALKWAY WHERE YOU SAW THE DEBRIS BACK THERE, DID YOU FIND THAT SOMETIMES THAT THE DEBRIS WOULD ADHERE TO OR COME IN CONTACT WITH YOUR SHOES AS YOU WALKED IN THAT AREA?

# 5 A:

I NEVER PAID ANY ATTENTION TO THAT, SIR. I NEVER CHECKED THAT OUT.

# 6 Q:

YOU NEVER CHECKED THAT OUT.

# 7 A:

NO, SIR.

# 8 Q:

ALL RIGHT. DO YOU SEE IT THERE THOUGH NOW? DO YOU HAVE ANY QUESTION IN YOUR MIND THAT THAT WOULD COME IN CONTACT WITH YOUR FEET AND SHOES IF YOU WERE WALKING BACK THERE?

# 9 A:

WELL, I IMAGINE IF YOU WOULD STEP ON IT, IT WOULD COME IN CONTACT WITH YOUR FEET, YES.

# 10 Q:

YES. AND THEN YOU GET BACK THERE, YOU'D HAVE TO STEP BACK THERE TO WALK BACK THERE, WHICH YOU DID. YOU DID WALK BACK THERE, DIDN'T YOU?

# 11 A:

I DID WALK BACK THERE, YES.

# 12 Q:

OKAY, SIR. NOW, WITH REGARD TO THE LOCATION AT BUNDY, YOU'VE TOLD US THAT YOU DID NOT TAKE ANY NOTES AT ALL, EITHER BUNDY OR ROCKINGHAM; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 13 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

# 14 Q:

IT'S TRUE, IS IT NOT, THAT YOUR PARTNER, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, DID IN FACT MAKE SOME NOTES; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

# 15 A:

I BELIEVE SO.

# 16 Q:

AND IF YOU WERE TO SEE THOSE NOTES, YOU WOULD RECOGNIZE HIS HANDWRITING, WOULDN'T YOU?

# 17 A:

IF HE WROTE IT, YES, IF I'VE SEEN IT BEFORE, YES.

# 18 MR. COCHRAN:

YOUR HONOR, I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE A THREE-PAGE DOCUMENT D-1022. YOUR HONOR, I WOULD LIKE TO SHOW IT TO COUNSEL, APPROACH THE WITNESS.

# 19 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. 1022.

# 20 MR. COCHRAN:

23?

# 21 THE COURT:

1023?

# 22 MR. COCHRAN:

1023 I UNDERSTAND, YOUR HONOR.

# 23 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT.

# 24 (DEFT'S 1023 FOR ID = THREE-PAGE DOCUMENT)

# 25 (BRIEF PAUSE.)

# 26 MR. COCHRAN:

THANK YOU. I WOULD LIKE TO APPROACH WITH A FOUR-PAGE DOCUMENT, D-1022.

# 27 Q:

BY MR. COCHRAN: DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, I WOULD LIKE TO SHOW YOU -- LET'S LOOK AT THE FIRST PAGE OF D-1022. DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE PRINTING THAT'S CONTAINED THEREIN?

# 28 A:

IT APPEARS TO BE DETECTIVE FUHRMAN'S PRINTING.

# 29 Q:

AND YOU RECOGNIZE THAT FROM YOUR PRIOR ASSOCIATION AND THE FACT THAT HE WAS YOUR PARTNER SOME NUMBER OF YEARS; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 30 A:

LOOKS LIKE HIS HANDWRITING, YES.

# 31 Q:

ALL RIGHT. AND THESE ARE NOTES THAT HE TOOK IN THE COURSE OF THE INVESTIGATION THAT PARTICULAR EVENING; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 32 A:

YES. I ASSUME THEY ARE. I JUST TOOK THEM FROM HIM AND HANDED THEM OVER TO VANNATTER AND LANGE. I NEVER READ THEM. IF YOU ARE ASKING ME IF THESE ARE THE NOTES HE TOOK THAT NIGHT --

# 33 Q:

WELL, I'M ASKING, FIRST OF ALL, IS THIS HIS HANDWRITING?

# 34 A:

APPEARS TO BE, YES.

# 35 Q:

OKAY. BY THE WAY, DID YOU FIND A HANDWRITTEN NOTE ON THE UPSTAIRS COFFEE TABLE AT THAT RESIDENCE?

# 36 A:

NO, I DIDN'T.

# 37 Q:

DID DETECTIVE FUHRMAN FIND A HANDWRITTEN NOTE ON THE UPSTAIRS COFFEE TABLE?

# 38 A:

I WOULDN'T KNOW THAT, SIR.

# 39 Q:

YOU DON'T RECALL THAT AT ALL?

# 40 A:

NO.

# 41 Q:

I WANT YOU TO LOOK AT THIS ITEM NUMBER 5 AND SEE IF THIS REFRESHES YOUR RECOLLECTION AT ALL. YOU CAN READ IT TO YOURSELF.

# 42 A:

OKAY.

# 43 Q:

DOES THAT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION AT ALL?

# 44 A:

I REMEMBER SEEING THE PIZZA MENU.

# 45 Q:

AND WHERE WAS THIS PIZZA MENU?

# 46 A:

IT WAS OUTSIDE BY THE VICTIM.

# 47 Q:

IN OTHER WORDS, THERE WAS A PIZZA MENU OUTSIDE ON THE GROUND NEAR WHERE MISS NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON'S BODY WAS FOUND?

# 48 A:

I BELIEVE SO.

# 49 Q:

AND WAS THERE A NOTE UPSTAIRS, A HANDWRITTEN NOTE ON THE UPSTAIRS COFFEE TABLE SAYING CARA, C-A-R-A, WITH THE PHONE NUMBER 575-5713 CALIFORNIA PIZZA KITCHEN?

# 50 A:

I DON'T RECALL SEEING THAT NOTE.

# 51 Q:

WAS THAT EVER BOOKED?

# 52 A:

I DON'T KNOW, SIR. I DIDN'T BOOK ANY ITEMS IN THIS CASE.

# 53 Q:

DID YOU EVER DISCUSS THAT WITH YOUR PARTNER DETECTIVE FUHRMAN?

# 54 A:

NO.

# 55 Q:

DID YOU SEE THIS LAST PAGE?

# 56 A:

NO, I DIDN'T.

# 57 Q:

IS THAT HIS HANDWRITING ALSO?

# 58 A:

THIS APPEARS TO BE HIS HANDWRITING, YES.

# 59 Q:

NOW, WHILE YOU WERE AT THE SCENE THERE AT BUNDY, DID YOU AND YOUR PARTNER FUHRMAN THEORIZE THAT THE SUSPECT OR SUSPECTS HAD RUN THROUGH THAT AREA, THAT WALKWAY AREA AND THAT THE SUSPECT OR SUSPECTS HAD POSSIBLY BEEN BITTEN BY THE AKITA, THE DOG?

# 60 A:

NOW, LET ME MENTION ONE THING.

# 61 Q:

DETECTIVE, BEFORE YOU MENTION ONE THING --

# 62 A:

FUHRMAN IS NOT MY PARTNER.

KEY QUOTE

# 63 Q:

HE'S NOT YOUR PARTNER?

# 64 A:

NO. I SUPERVISE MARK FUHRMAN'S WORK. SO HE'S AN INDIVIDUAL THAT WORKS FOR ME OR HE'S NOT MY PARTNER AT THIS TIME.

# 65 Q:

YOU WANT TO CLEAR THAT UP THEN? AND WAS THAT ON JUNE 13?

# 66 A:

YES.

# 67 Q:

SO HE WORKED FOR YOU?

# 68 A:

YES, SIR.

# 69 Q:

SO LET ME REPHRASE THE QUESTION. DID YOU AND MARK FUHRMAN, WHO WORKED FOR YOU, THEORIZE THAT THE SUSPECT OR SUSPECTS HAD BEEN BITTEN BY THIS AKITA DOG SOMEWHERE IN THAT WALKWAY THAT PARTICULAR NIGHT?

# 70 A:

I NEVER HEARD THAT THEORY BY ANYBODY.

# 71 Q:

DO YOU SEE THAT INDICATED ON MARK FURHMAN'S NOTES?

# 72 A:

YES.

# 73 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. THIS CALLS FOR SPECULATION.

# 74 THE COURT:

IT'S HEARSAY. WHAT'S IN THE NOTES ARE HEARSAY.

# 75 MR. COCHRAN:

ALL RIGHT.

# 76 Q:

BY MR. COCHRAN: SO DID YOU OR DID YOU OR ANYONE ELSE IN YOUR PRESENCE THAT NIGHT CHECK WITH ANY LOCAL HOSPITALS TO SEE IF ANY PERSON HAD GONE TO THAT HOSPITAL FOR TREATMENT OF A DOG BITE?

# 77 A:

NO, SIR.

# 78 Q:

YOU TOLD US EARLIER THAT WHILE STILL AT BUNDY, THE AKITA WAS TETHERED TO A POST OF SOME KIND; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 79 A:

YES, SIR.

# 80 Q:

AND DO YOU KNOW WHO TOOK CUSTODY OF THAT AKITA?

# 81 A:

I BELIEVE UNDER MY DIRECTION, IT WAS TAKEN TO THE ANIMAL POUND OR THE ANIMAL POUND CAME AND PICKED IT UP. IT WAS AT MY DIRECTION THAT IT BE DONE.

# 82 Q:

DO YOU KNOW WHETHER ANYBODY EVER CHECKED THE AKITA'S MOUTH OR TEETH TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT IT HAD BITTEN ANYONE THAT NIGHT?

# 83 A:

I DON'T KNOW THAT THAT WAS EVER DONE.

# 84 Q:

AND DID YOU GIVE ANY SPECIFIC INSTRUCTIONS IN THAT REGARD?

# 85 A:

NO, SIR.

# 86 Q:

DID YOU HEAR LANGE OR VANNATTER DO THAT?

# 87 A:

NO, SIR.

# 88 Q:

NOW, YOU DESCRIBED FOR US YESTERDAY THAT AT -- STRIKE THAT. HAVE YOU EVER SEEN ANY PICTURES OF THIS PIZZA MENU THAT WAS OUTSIDE NEAR MISS NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON'S BODY AS IT WAS OUT THERE? DID YOU SEE ANY PICTURES OF THAT?

# 89 A:

THE ONLY CRIME SCENE PICTURES I'VE SEEN, SIR, ARE THE ONES THAT YOU'VE SHOWN ME HERE. I HAVEN'T GONE THROUGH THEM.

# 90 Q:

OKAY. AND HAVE YOU SEEN SOME OF MISS MARCIA CLARK?

# 91 A:

THE ONES THAT HAVE BEEN SHOWN HERE IN COURT.

# 92 Q:

ALL RIGHT. AND DID YOU SEE THIS PHOTOGRAPHER ROKAHR OR ANYONE ELSE TAKE ANY PICTURES OF THAT MENU THAT NIGHT?

# 93 A:

NEVER SAW MR. ROKAHR TAKE ANY PHOTOGRAPHS OTHER THAN SOME PHOTOGRAPHS OF THE STREET WHEN HE WAS FIRST ARRIVED AND THOSE WERE ALL ORIENTATION PHOTOS.

# 94 Q:

AND EVEN THE PHOTOGRAPH THAT WAS TAKEN OF MARK FUHRMAN, YOU NEVER SAW THAT TAKEN EITHER; IS THAT RIGHT, SIR?

# 95 A:

NO, SIR.

# 96 Q:

NOW, AFTER YOU HAD GOTTEN THE CALL OR TALKED TO CAPTAIN GARTLAND ABOUT 2:38 AND YOU KNEW YOU WERE OFF THIS CASE, YOU BASICALLY, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF SOME MINOR THINGS, CEASED YOUR ACTIVITIES; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 97 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

# 98 Q:

WHEN WAS IT THAT YOU WERE TOLD THAT YOU HAD TO GIVE THIS SO-CALLED VIP NOTIFICATION TO MR. O.J. SIMPSON? WHEN WERE YOU TOLD THAT?

# 99 A:

WHEN I FIRST ARRIVED TO THE LOCATION AT ABOUT 2:10, 2:11, 2:12.

# 100 Q:

AND WHO TOLD YOU THAT?

# 101 A:

WHEN I FIRST ARRIVED TO THE LOCATION, SERGEANT ROSSI WAS ON A CELL PHONE TALKING TO COMMANDER KEITH BUSHEY AND HE HANDED ME THE PHONE.

# 102 Q:

ALL RIGHT. SO IS KEITH BUSHEY THE ONE WHO TOLD YOU THAT?

# 103 A:

COMMANDER KEITH BUSHEY, YES.

# 104 Q:

ALL RIGHT. HE TOLD YOU TO GIVE O.J. SIMPSON SOME KIND OF VIP NOTIFICATION; IS THAT RIGHT?

# 105 A:

HE DIDN'T MENTION IT AS VIP NOTIFICATION. HE JUST SAID THAT, "MAKE SURE THAT YOU NOTIFY MR. SIMPSON IF POSSIBLE IN PERSON PRIOR TO THE NEWS MEDIA FINDING OUT BECAUSE IT WOULD BE INSENSITIVE FOR HIM TO FIND OUT THROUGH THE NEWS MEDIA ABOUT WHAT'S TAKING PLACE AT THIS HOUSE ON BUNDY."

# 106 Q:

ALL RIGHT. NOW, FIRST OF ALL, DOESN'T LAPD POLICY APPLY TO THE NEXT OF KIN?

# 107 A:

YES.

# 108 Q:

AND IN THIS INSTANCE, IF MR. SIMPSON WAS THE EX-HUSBAND OF MISS NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON, HE WAS NOT THE NEXT OF KIN, WAS HE?

# 109 A:

WELL, OUR MAIN CONCERN WAS HIS CHILDREN.

# 110 Q:

CAN YOU JUST ANSWER MY QUESTION? HE WAS NOT THE NEXT OF KIN, WAS HE?

# 111 A:

NOT OF NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON.

# 112 Q:

DID YOU -- DID COMMANDER BUSHEY ASK YOU TO MAKE SURE YOU GAVE SOME NOTIFICATION TO NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON'S PARENTS, WHEREVER THEY WERE?

# 113 A:

HE DIDN'T DO IT. WE DID IT.

# 114 Q:

DID ANYBODY EVER SEARCH IN THAT HOUSE TO SEE WHETHER OR NOT HER MOTHER'S PHONE NUMBER WAS PART OF THIS SPEED DIALING?

# 115 A:

I DIDN'T DO ANY SEARCHING, SIR.

# 116 Q:

AND SO THE LAPD POLICY TALKS ABOUT NEXT OF KIN, DOESN'T IT?

# 117 A:

YES.

# 118 Q:

IS THAT RIGHT?

# 119 A:

YES.

# 120 Q:

AND THE POLICY ALSO TALKS ABOUT GIVING WHERE POSSIBLE PERSON-TO-PERSON NOTICE AS OPPOSED TO OVER THE PHONE; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

# 121 A:

IF POSSIBLE, YES.

# 122 Q:

AND PART OF THAT IS BECAUSE OF CITY LIABILITY. IF YOU CALL SOMEBODY UP OVER THE PHONE AND TELL THEM SOMETHING, THEY MIGHT FAINT OR HAVE A HEART ATTACK; IS THAT RIGHT?

# 123 A:

I SUPPOSE THAT IS BROUGHT INTO IT.

# 124 Q:

THAT'S PART OF THE POLICY, ISN'T IT?

# 125 A:

I SUPPOSE THAT'S PART OF THE REASONS.

# 126 Q:

OKAY. NOW, SO IN THIS INSTANCE, WHEN YOU WERE TALKING TO COMMANDER BUSHEY AT 2:10, DID HE TELL YOU TO GIVE SOME PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE TO THE PARENTS OF NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON?

# 127 A:

NO, HE DID NOT.

# 128 Q:

YOU WERE CONCERNED ABOUT MR. O.J. SIMPSON AND YOU NEVER AT ANY TIME LOOKED INSIDE THE HOUSE TO SEE WHETHER OR NOT THERE WAS A NUMBER WHERE YOU COULD CALL HIM IN THE HOUSE, RIGHT, INSIDE MISS NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON'S HOUSE? YOU DIDN'T DO THAT?

# 129 A:

WHEN YOU SAY CONCERNED ABOUT MR. SIMPSON, I WAS GOING TO MAKE NOTIFICATION TO MR. SIMPSON. WHAT I WAS CONCERNED ABOUT WAS THE WELFARE OF HIS CHILDREN.

# 130 Q:

I UNDERSTAND THAT. BUT I'M ASKING YOU, DID YOU LOOK INSIDE TO EXPEDITE ANY SEARCH OR TRYING TO FIND HIM BY LOOKING FOR HIS NUMBER INSIDE THE HOUSE?

# 131 A:

I DID NOT DO THAT, SIR.

# 132 Q:

OKAY. AND SO AS I UNDERSTAND IT, EVEN THOUGH YOU WERE OFF THE CASE AS OF 2:38, WHEN YOU AND YOUR -- THE OTHER OFFICERS LEFT TO GO OVER TO ROCKINGHAM, WHAT WAS YOUR PURPOSE IN GOING OVER TO ROCKINGHAM IF YOU WERE NOW OFF THE CASE?

# 133 A:

TO GO OVER AND NOTIFY MR. SIMPSON OF WHAT I HAD BEEN TOLD TO DO AND POSSIBLY ASSIST TOM LANGE OR PHIL VANNATTER IF THEY NEEDED ANYTHING ELSE. WE WERE ALREADY UP. WE WERE THERE.

# 134 Q:

ALL RIGHT. WELL, WAS THERE ANY PROBLEM -- NOW, THEY WERE NOW ON THE CASE AND THEY WERE THE BOTH SENIOR DETECTIVES FROM ROBBERY-HOMICIDE. THEY HAD NOW ARRIVED AT THE SCENE, RIGHT?

# 135 A:

YES.

# 136 Q:

GOTTEN THERE AT 4:10 AND 4:25, RIGHT?

# 137 A:

YES.

# 138 Q:

NOW ABOUT 5:00 O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING, RIGHT?

# 139 A:

OKAY.

# 140 Q:

AND DID YOU EVER HEAR PHIL VANNATTER SAY, "I USED TO WORK WEST LOS ANGELES. I KNOW WHERE THE ROCKINGHAM RESIDENCE IS"? DID YOU EVER HERE HIM SAY THAT?

# 141 A:

NO, I DON'T. I DON'T REMEMBER HIM EVER SAYING THAT. I KNOW THAT PHIL VANNATTER USED TO WORK WEST L.A.

# 142 Q:

WOULD YOU BE SURPRISED THAT HE TESTIFIED HE KNEW WHERE ROCKINGHAM WAS AND HOW TO GET THERE FROM BUNDY? WOULD YOU BE SURPRISED BY THAT?

# 143 A:

WOULDN'T SURPRISE ME AT ALL.

# 144 Q:

ALL RIGHT. NOW, WHEN YOU WERE TALKING WITH THE OTHER DETECTIVES WITH MARK FUHRMAN, DID YOU EVER HEAR HIM SAY, WHEN THE TWO OF YOU WERE JUST WAITING AROUND, "I KNOW THAT" -- STRIKE THAT -- "I KNOW WHERE O.J. SIMPSON LIVES BECAUSE I'VE BEEN THERE BEFORE"? EVER HEAR HIM SAY THAT IN YOUR PRESENCE?

# 145 A:

I THINK THAT WAS FROM THE CONVERSATION WE WERE TALKING ABOUT WHERE HE LIVED AND HE SAID, "I KNOW HE LIVES OFF OF SUNSET SOMEPLACE. I'VE BEEN TO HIS HOUSE BEFORE, BUT I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY WHERE IT IS." THAT'S WHEN HE ASKED ANOTHER OFFICER TO RUN THE JEEP LICENSE PLATE. WE CAME BACK WITH THE ADDRESS. HE ASKED THAT OFFICER, "IS THAT ADDRESS -- WHERE IS THAT ADDRESS IN RELATION TO," AND RISKE SAID, "IT'S NEAR CLIFFWOOD," AND THEN MARK FUHRMAN SAYS, "YEAH, I KNOW WHERE IT'S AT."

# 146 Q:

ALL RIGHT. WHEN WAS THAT? WHAT TIME WAS THAT?

# 147 A:

BEFORE WE EVER LEFT THE BUNDY LOCATION.

# 148 Q:

ALL RIGHT. WELL, WHAT TIME?

# 149 A:

PROBABLY FIVE MINUTES OR SO BEFORE WE LEFT.

# 150 Q:

SO MAYBE ABOUT 4:55 OR THERE IN THAT TIME FRAME?

# 151 A:

WE WERE PREPARING TO GO UP THERE AND WE WERE TRYING TO MAKE PLANS TO DO THAT.

# 152 Q:

ALL RIGHT. IN ADDITION TO INDICATING THAT HE KNEW WHERE MR. O.J. SIMPSON LIVED, DIDN'T HE SAY HE HAD BEEN OVER THERE IN RESPONSE TO SOME DOMESTIC CALL BACK IN 1985? DIDN'T HE SAY THAT TO YOU?

# 153 A:

HE NEVER TOLD ME WHY HE WAS UP AT THAT LOCATION. HE TOLD ME HE RESPONDED TO THAT CALL WHEN HE WORKED PATROL.

# 154 Q:

HE DIDN'T TELL YOU WHY?

# 155 A:

NO, SIR.

# 156 Q:

DID YOU ASK HIM?

# 157 A:

NO, SIR.

# 158 Q:

DID YOU HEAR LANGE OR VANNATTER ASK HIM?

# 159 A:

NO, SIR.

# 160 Q:

NOW, BEFORE WE LEAVE BUNDY, WHILE AT THE SCENE -- YOU CAME THERE WITH THE CELLULAR TELEPHONE, DID YOU?

# 161 A:

YES, SIR.

# 162 Q:

AND WAS THAT A CITY OF LOS ANGELES ISSUED CELLULAR TELEPHONE?

# 163 A:

NO, IT'S NOT.

# 164 Q:

IS THIS YOUR OWN PERSONAL CELLULAR TELEPHONE?

# 165 A:

YES, IT IS.

# 166 Q:

AND YOU MADE A NUMBER OF CALLS FROM THAT LOCATION THAT NIGHT; IS THAT RIGHT?

# 167 A:

I MADE SEVERAL CALLS DURING THAT DAY -- THAT DAY, YES.

# 168 Q:

ALL RIGHT.

# 169 MR. COCHRAN:

CAN I -- MAY I APPROACH, YOUR HONOR, GET THE EXHIBIT?

# 170 THE COURT:

YES.

# 171 MR. COCHRAN:

I'M PLACING ON THE BOARD NOW, YOUR HONOR, PEOPLE'S 60 FOR IDENTIFICATION.

# 172 Q:

BY MR. COCHRAN: AND, DETECTIVE, SO THAT WE'RE CLEAR ABOUT THIS, THIS IS A RECORD OF YOUR CELLULAR CALLS MADE. LET'S TALK ABOUT JUNE 12TH AND ON JUNE 13TH. IS THAT CORRECT?

# 173 A:

YES, SIR.

# 174 Q:

AND YOU GOT THIS CALL SHORTLY AFTER 1:00 O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 175 A:

YES, SIR.

# 176 Q:

AND SO THAT WOULD BE 6-13 AFTER 1:00 O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING?

# 177 A:

YES, SIR.

# 178 Q:

YOU THEN MADE A NUMBER OF CALLS -- LET'S SEE -- ONE, TWO, THREE, FOUR, FIVE CALLS WITHIN ABOUT 12 MINUTES; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 179 A:

YES, SIR.

# 180 Q:

AFTER YOU GOT THE PHONE? WHERE WERE THOSE CALLS MADE TO?

# 181 A:

THOSE WERE ALL CALLS MADE TO LOS ANGELES POLICE DETECTIVES' RESIDENCES.

# 182 Q:

ALL RIGHT. AND THOSE WERE FIVE CALLS MADE ALMOST IMMEDIATELY AFTER YOU GOT THE CALL TO COME TO THE LOCATION?

# 183 A:

YES. AS I HAD PREVIOUSLY STATED, THREE OF THOSE CALLS, THE DETECTIVES WERE UNABLE TO RESPOND FOR VARIOUS REASONS AND TWO OF THE CALLS WERE PEOPLE THAT DID RESPOND.

# 184 Q:

ALL RIGHT. NOW, WELL YOU WERE AT HOME AT THIS POINT, RIGHT?

# 185 A:

NO. I WAS IN MY CAR.

# 186 Q:

SO YOU -- LET'S SEE. YOU GOT THE CALL AT 1:00 O'CLOCK OR 1:05?

# 187 A:

YES.

# 188 Q:

AND YOU WERE IN YOUR CAR BY 1:18?

# 189 A:

YES, SIR.

# 190 Q:

YOU'RE A FAST DRESSER, AREN'T YOU?

# 191 A:

I HAVE IT ALL LAID OUT FOR ME THE NIGHT BEFORE.

KEY QUOTE

# 192 Q:

I SEE. SO IN OTHER WORDS, YOU GET A CALL AT 1:00 O'CLOCK AND BY 1:18, YOU'RE DRIVING IN YOUR CAR?

# 193 A:

YES, SIR.

# 194 Q:

IN 18 MINUTES. ALL RIGHT.

# 195 A:

I'VE GOTTEN IT DOWN TO A SCIENCE WITH --

# 196 Q:

I SEE. YOU COULD HAVE CALLED THESE PEOPLE FROM YOUR HOME, IS THAT CORRECT, BUT YOU CALLED FROM YOUR CAR?

# 197 A:

I MADE TWO PHONE CALLS FROM MY HOME TO OFFICER FUHRMAN OR DETECTIVE FUHRMAN AND DETECTIVE ROBERTS TO INITIALLY GET THEM RESPONDING.

# 198 Q:

THAT WAS RIGHT AT -- THAT WAS BETWEEN WHAT TIME AND WHAT TIME?

# 199 A:

RIGHT AFTER I RECEIVED THE CALL.

# 200 Q:

THAT WAS 1:00 O'CLOCK.

# 201 A:

I MADE THE FIRST CALL TO MARK FUHRMAN I BELIEVE AT 1:05.

# 202 Q:

ALL RIGHT. AND THEN WHAT TIME DID YOU CALL ROBERTS?

# 203 A:

WITHIN A COUPLE OF MINUTES AFTER THAT.

# 204 Q:

SO BETWEEN 1:05 AND 1:08?

# 205 A:

AS LONG AS IT TOOK ME TO LOOK UP HIS PHONE NUMBER AND DIAL THE PHONE.

# 206 Q:

ALL RIGHT. AND IT'S YOUR TESTIMONY THAT THE OTHER FIVE CALLS BEGINNING AT 1:18, BETWEEN 1:18 AND 1:30 WERE TO WHOM?

# 207 A:

OTHER LOS ANGELES POLICE DETECTIVES WHO WORKED OUT OF WEST LOS ANGELES THAT WERE ASSIGNED TO MY TABLE. AS I'VE TOLD YOU, I HAD THE MAC UNIT, THE HOMICIDE UNIT AND ANOTHER UNIT. SO I WAS GOING TO HAVE ADDITIONAL UNITS RESPOND TO ASSIST. THREE OF THOSE DETECTIVES WERE UNABLE TO RESPOND FOR PERSONAL REASONS.

# 208 Q:

ALL RIGHT. LET'S TAKE -- YOU RECALL FIVE OF THEM ALTOGETHER?

# 209 A:

ONE OF THOSE PHONE CALLS I BELIEVE IS A MISS -- I DIALED THE NUMBER WRONG. AND SO I HAD TO REDIAL IT AGAIN. I THINK THERE WAS ONLY FOUR CALLS MADE, BUT THERE'S FIVE INSTANCES HERE, BUT ONE OF THEM WAS A MISTAKE. WHEN I WAS DRIVING THE CAR, I MADE A PHONE CALL, I PUNCHED IN THE WRONG BUTTON.

# 210 Q:

ALL RIGHT. SO ONE WAS WRONG. SO THE OTHER FOUR WERE -- WHO WERE THE FOUR OFFICERS YOU WERE CALLING?

# 211 A:

UMM, I BELIEVE ONE OF THEM WAS A FEMALE NAMED JAMIE VERMAAT.

# 212 Q:

JAMIE WHO?

# 213 A:

VERMAAT.

# 214 Q:

COULD YOU SPELL THAT FOR THE COURT REPORTER?

# 215 A:

V-E-R-M-A-A-T.

# 216 Q:

DID YOU REACH HER?

# 217 A:

NO.

# 218 Q:

DID YOU CALL HER HOME?

# 219 A:

YES.

# 220 Q:

ALL RIGHT. WHO ELSE DID YOU CALL?

# 221 A:

CALLED A DETECTIVE PAMELA HARRIS.

# 222 Q:

AND WHERE DOES SHE WORK?

# 223 A:

H-A-R-R -- OR WHERE DOES SHE WORK?

# 224 Q:

YES. WELL -- SORRY. LET ME LET YOU FINISH SPELLING IT FIRST. H-A-R-R-I-S?

# 225 A:

YES.

# 226 Q:

WHERE DOES SHE WORK?

# 227 A:

RIGHT NOW, SHE'S WORKING IN SAN PEDRO ON THE HARBOR DIVISION.

# 228 Q:

BUT AT THAT TIME, WHERE DID SHE WORK?

# 229 A:

WORKED WEST LOS ANGELES DETECTIVES.

# 230 Q:

DID YOU REACH HER?

# 231 A:

YES.

# 232 Q:

DID SHE RESPOND TO THE LOCATION?

# 233 A:

NO.

# 234 Q:

YOU CALLED HER, YOU REACHED HER, SHE DIDN'T RESPOND?

# 235 A:

WELL, LET ME EXPLAIN WHY WE WERE CALLING THESE INDIVIDUALS UP. WE HAD A PROGRAM IN WEST L.A. AT THAT TIME THAT IF WE HAD A HOMICIDE, WE WOULD TAKE PEOPLE THAT HAD NO HOMICIDE EXPERIENCE AT ALL OUT TO A HOMICIDE SCENE AND HAVE THEM JUST VISUALLY WALK WITH US AND SEE WHAT WE WERE DOING AS A TRAINING EXERCISE SO THEY WOULD GET HOMICIDE EXPERIENCE. SO THESE PEOPLE THAT I WERE CALLING AT THIS TIME WERE THESE PEOPLE THAT WERE ON THIS LIST. THEY HAVE NO OBLIGATION TO COME IN WHATSOEVER BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT ON CALL. IF IT TURNS OUT TO BE OKAY FOR THEM AND THEY HAVEN'T BEEN DOING ANYTHING THE NIGHT BEFORE AND THEY'VE GOTTEN PLENTY OF SLEEP, THEY WANT TO COME IN, THEY CAN COME IN. IF THEY DON'T WANT TO COME IN, I CAN'T MAKE THEM COME IN. THEY DON'T WORK MY UNIT.

# 236 Q:

LET ME SEE IF I UNDERSTAND THIS. SO PAMELA HARRIS GETS A CALL AT 1:38 OR 1:40 TO GO OUT ON A HOMICIDE SCENE, SHE CAN EITHER SAY, "I'M GOING BACK TO SLEEP OR I CAN GO WITH YOU." IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING?

# 237 A:

WELL, HER REASONING THAT NIGHT THAT SHE COULDN'T COME IN WAS GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME AND I TOLD HER SHE DIDN'T HAVE TO.

# 238 Q:

OKAY. SO SHE DIDN'T COME.

# 239 A:

RIGHT.

# 240 Q:

OKAY. WHO ELSE DID YOU CALL?

# 241 A:

I BELIEVE I CALLED DETECTIVE NOLAN.

# 242 Q:

OKAY. DETECTIVE NOLAN, IS THAT A MALE OR FEMALE?

# 243 A:

THAT'S A MALE.

# 244 Q:

DID DETECTIVE NOLAN RESPOND?

# 245 A:

YES.

# 246 Q:

WAS HE AT THE SCENE AT SOME POINT?

# 247 A:

YES.

# 248 Q:

OKAY. WHAT'S HIS FIRST NAME?

# 249 A:

TOM.

# 250 Q:

AND WHO ELSE DID YOU CALL?

# 251 A:

AND I DON'T RECALL WHO THE OTHER DETECTIVE WAS THAT I CALLED THAT DAY.

# 252 Q:

DO YOU KNOW WHO THE FOURTH ONE WAS?

# 253 A:

NO, BECAUSE THERE WAS A LIST -- THERE WAS --- LIKE I SAY, DETECTIVE I'S AND TRAINEES THAT WERE ON A LIST, AND I JUST CALLED THE FIRST THREE THAT WERE THERE.

# 254 Q:

AND SO THE FOURTH ONE -- DID THE FOURTH ONE RESPOND AT ALL?

# 255 A:

NO.

# 256 Q:

SO OF THE ONES YOU CALLED, THE ONLY ONE WHO RESPONDED WAS NOLAN; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 257 A:

WELL, MARK FUHRMAN RESPONDED.

# 258 Q:

WELL, OF THIS BUNCH OF CALLS THAT YOU MADE --

# 259 A:

YES. TOM NOLAN RESPONDED.

# 260 Q:

OF THE FIVE, ONLY TOM NOLAN, CORRECT?

# 261 A:

RIGHT. AGAIN, SIR, ONE OF THOSE WAS A BAD PHONE NUMBER, A MISTAKEN PHONE NUMBER. SO THERE WAS ONLY FOUR.

# 262 Q:

I UNDERSTAND. BUT OF THE FOUR, THE ONE INDIVIDUAL WHO RESPONDED WAS TOM NOLAN?

# 263 A:

THAT'S RIGHT.

# 264 Q:

ALL RIGHT. NOW, YOU MENTIONED A COUPLE OF TIMES THAT THIS PARTICULAR UNIT THAT YOU HANDLED IN WEST LOS ANGELES WAS CALLED M-A-C OR --

# 265 A:

M-A-C, YES.

# 266 Q:

M-A-C?

# 267 A:

MAC UNIT.

# 268 Q:

MAC UNIT? AND IN THAT CONNECTION, WERE YOU AWARE THAT MISS NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON HAD FILED AN ANNOYING PHONE CALL CRIME REPORT FOR THE PERIOD MARCH 2ND, 1992 TO DECEMBER 4TH, 1992?

# 269 A:

I -- EXCUSE ME.

# 270 Q:

ARE YOU AWARE OF THAT?

# 271 A:

I DIDN'T HAVE THAT UNIT AT THAT TIME, SIR.

# 272 Q:

WERE YOU AWARE OF IT AT THAT POINT?

# 273 A:

NO.

# 274 Q:

YOU DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THAT AT ALL?

# 275 A:

NO.

# 276 Q:

DID YOU KNOW ABOUT A SUSPECT IN THAT REGARD?

# 277 A:

NO, SIR.

# 278 Q:

WHO WAS IN CHARGE OF THAT UNIT AT THAT TIME, IF YOU KNOW? WHO PRECEDED YOU?

# 279 A:

WE DIDN'T HAVE A MAC UNIT AT THAT TIME, SIR. IT WAS A DIFFERENT UNIT CALLED A CAPS UNIT, CRIMES AGAINST PERSON UNIT, AND IT WAS ALL REORGANIZED IN 1994. SO IT WAS HANDLED BY THE CAPS UNIT IF THAT WAS THE KIND OF CALL OR REPORT IT WAS AND I DON'T KNOW WHO WAS RUNNING THE CAP UNIT IN WHATEVER YEAR -- 1992 YOU JUST SAID?

# 280 Q:

YEAH. 1992.

# 281 A:

I DON'T KNOW WHO WAS RUNNING THAT CAP UNIT AT THAT TIME.

# 282 Q:

ALL RIGHT. NOW, DID YOU HAVE MORE THAN ONE CELL PHONE WITH YOU THAT NIGHT?

# 283 A:

I ONLY HAD ONE PERSONAL CELL PHONE, MY OWN.

# 284 Q:

SO WHEN YOU GOT TO THE SCENE, THE CELL PHONE THAT YOU MADE THESE CALLS ON THERE ON PEOPLE'S 60 FOR IDENTIFICATION, DID YOU GIVE THAT CELL PHONE TO SOMEONE?

# 285 A:

NO.

# 286 Q:

DID YOU GIVE RISKE A CELL PHONE AT SOME POINT? STRIKE THAT. DID YOU GIVE ROSSI -- RISKE, ROSSI -- DID YOU GIVE ROSSI A CELL PHONE AT SOME POINT?

# 287 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

# 288 MR. COCHRAN:

I'M GETTING SOME HELP TO THE LEFT, YOUR HONOR. MAY I REPHRASE THAT QUESTION?

# 289 THE COURT:

YES.

# 290 Q:

BY MR. COCHRAN: DID YOU GIVE RISKE A CELL PHONE THAT NIGHT WHEN YOU LEFT TO GO OVER TO ROCKINGHAM?

# 291 A:

IF I GAVE HIM A PHONE, WHICH I DON'T --

# 292 Q:

CAN YOU ANSWER THAT YES OR NO?

# 293 A:

WELL, I MAY HAVE GIVEN HIM A PATROL OFFICER'S CELL PHONE THAT'S ASSIGNED TO WEST L.A. DETECTIVE -- I MEAN WEST L.A. PATROL. I DID NOT GIVE HIM MY CELL PHONE.

# 294 Q:

I'M JUST ASKING YOU NOW, THINK IN YOUR MIND. DID YOU GIVE RISKE A CELL PHONE THAT NIGHT WHEN YOU LEFT BUNDY AND WENT OVER TO ROCKINGHAM, SAID, "I'LL CALL YOU IF I WANT TO REACH YOU," OR WHATEVER?

# 295 A:

I DON'T RECALL GIVING HIM A TELEPHONE.

# 296 Q:

YOU DON'T RECALL THAT? ALL RIGHT. NOW, DID YOU HAVE TWO CELL PHONES OR JUST ONE?

# 297 A:

I HAD ONE.

# 298 Q:

IF HE SAID YOU GAVE HIM A CELL PHONE, WOULD HE BE MISTAKEN?

# 299 A:

NO. BECAUSE AS I SAID, THERE ARE OTHER CELL PHONES THAT WERE OUT THERE AT THAT CRIME SCENE THAT BELONGED TO WEST L.A. PATROL. THE SERGEANTS HAD THEM. SO IF HE PICKED UP A CELL PHONE, HE MAY HAVE PICKED IT UP FROM ME WHICH I HAD TAKEN AWAY FROM SOME SERGEANT THAT WAS OUT THERE AND GIVEN TO HIM. I DID NOT GIVE HIM MY PERSONAL CELL PHONE.

# 300 Q:

WHAT ABOUT ROSSI? DO YOU RECALL GIVING ROSSI A CELL PHONE?

# 301 A:

NO, SIR.

# 302 Q:

YOU HAVE NO RECOLLECTION OF THIS AT ALL; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 303 A:

I DID NOT GIVE ROSSI OR RISKE MY CELLULAR TELEPHONE.

# 304 Q:

YOU KEPT IT WITH YOU; IS THAT RIGHT?

# 305 A:

YES, SIR.

# 306 Q:

AND THE REASON THOSE NUMBERS ON THERE, THE LINES ARE REDACTED, BECAUSE THEY HAVE THE PHONE NUMBERS OF PEOPLE THAT YOU CALL THAT YOU LIKE TO KEEP PRIVATE; IS THAT RIGHT?

# 307 A:

ALL THOSE NUMBERS THAT ARE CROSSED OUT ARE PERSONAL PHONE NUMBERS OF DETECTIVE OR POLICE OFFICERS' HOME RESIDENTIAL PHONE NUMBERS.

# 308 Q:

ALL RIGHT. NOW, DID DETECTIVES LANGE AND VANNATTER ARTICULATE FOR YOU WHY THEY WERE GOING TO GO OVER TO ROCKINGHAM? WHY WERE THEY GOING OVER TO ROCKINGHAM?

# 309 A:

WELL, I THINK IT WAS JUST A CONVERSATION THAT CAME ABOUT THAT WE -- I TOLD THEM I HAD TO MAKE A NOTIFICATION. THEY STATED THAT THEY WOULD PROBABLY WANT TO GO ALONG WITH US. THEY WERE THE LEAD INVESTIGATING OFFICERS ON THE CRIME. THEY MIGHT WANT TO TALK TO HIM. THEY MAY HAVE A STATEMENT. IT WAS JUST A -- IT WAS FOUR DETECTIVES MAKING A -- YOU KNOW, A DECISION TO GO UP THERE BASED ON A COUPLE OF FACTS AND WE WENT.

# 310 Q:

LET ME SEE IF I UNDERSTAND THIS. ALL FOUR DETECTIVES, ALL HOMICIDE DETECTIVES LEAVE THE BODIES OUT THERE, THE CORONER HAS NOT BEEN NOTIFIED, YOU ALL GO OVER TO ANOTHER LOCATION TO GIVE NOTIFICATION TO A MAN THAT YOU DON'T KNOW WHETHER HE'S HOME OR NOT. IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING TO US?

# 311 A:

WELL, THE FOUR OF US WENT UP THERE TO DO THAT AND TWO OF US WERE GOING TO STAY AND TWO OF THEM SHOULD COME RIGHT BACK.

# 312 Q:

BUT YOU SAY -- THE QUESTION IS, YOU ALL WENT OVER THERE?

# 313 A:

YES, WE DID.

# 314 Q:

AT THAT POINT, NO ONE HAD CALLED THE CORONER REGARDING THESE BODIES; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 315 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

# 316 Q:

NO ONE HAD CALLED A CRIMINALIST TO COME OUT AND START COLLECTING EVIDENCE; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 317 A:

I DON'T KNOW THAT.

# 318 Q:

WELL, AS FAR AS YOU KNOW.

# 319 A:

AS FAR AS I KNOW, NO CRIMINALIST WAS CALLED.

# 320 Q:

YOU KNOW FUNG WASN'T THERE, RIGHT?

# 321 A:

I DON'T KNOW THAT HE WASN'T CALLED ALREADY.

# 322 Q:

YOU KNOW HE WASN'T THERE THOUGH, DON'T YOU?

# 323 A:

HE WAS NOT THERE.

# 324 Q:

EVEN WHEN YOU CAME BACK, HE WASN'T THERE, WAS HE?

# 325 A:

WHEN I CAME BACK, I WALKED UP AND TALKED TO THE LIEUTENANT. I DID NOT GO BACK OVER TO BUNDY. SO I DON'T KNOW IF HE WAS THERE.

# 326 Q:

WELL, YOU NEVER SAW FUNG AT ANY TIME THAT MORNING WHILE YOU WERE THERE, DID YOU, SIR?

# 327 A:

NO, SIR.

# 328 Q:

ALL RIGHT. YOU WERE THERE AT 10 O'CLOCK THAT MORNING, RIGHT? RIGHT?

# 329 A:

OFF AND ON.

# 330 Q:

SO ALL FOUR OF YOU DECIDE TO GO OVER TO ROCKINGHAM AND YOU GO IN TWO SEPARATE CARS, RIGHT?

# 331 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

# 332 Q:

HAD -- BY THE WAY, BEFORE YOU LEFT THE LOCATION THERE AT BUNDY, HAD ANYONE ASCERTAINED WHETHER OR NOT MR. GOLDMAN HAD DRIVEN A CAR TO THAT LOCATION?

# 333 A:

NO, SIR.

# 334 Q:

DID YOU EVER FIND THAT OUT THAT MORNING, THAT HE HAD IN FACT DRIVEN A VEHICLE THERE PARKED SOMEWHERE?

# 335 A:

I DIDN'T FIND THAT OUT UNTIL LATE THAT AFTERNOON.

# 336 Q:

OKAY. WHEN DID YOU FIND THAT OUT?

# 337 A:

RIGHT AROUND 3:00, 3:30 IN THE AFTERNOON I BELIEVE.

# 338 Q:

AND HOW DID YOU FIND THAT OUT? SOMEBODY TOLD YOU?

# 339 A:

I RECEIVED A PHONE CALL AT WEST L.A. DETECTIVES.

# 340 Q:

ALL RIGHT. DID YOU -- WHEN YOU WERE OUT THERE THAT MORNING, WAS ANYBODY CHECKING ON THE VEHICLES THAT WERE PARKED IN AND AROUND BUNDY AND THE DOROTHY LOCATION?

# 341 A:

I THINK THE OFFICERS WROTE THE LICENSE NUMBERS DOWN. I DON'T KNOW THAT ANYBODY DID ANY INVESTIGATING INTO THOSE CARS, NO.

# 342 Q:

DID YOU FIND OUT THAT MR. GOLDMAN HAD IN FACT DRIVEN A VEHICLE THERE AT SOME POINT?

# 343 A:

AS I SAID, 3:00, 3:30 IN THE AFTERNOON, I WAS TOLD THAT BY A PHONE CALL.

# 344 Q:

OKAY. AND DID YOU FIND OUT WHERE THAT VEHICLE WAS PARKED, SIR?

# 345 A:

YES, I DO, BUT I DON'T REMEMBER WHERE IT WAS PARKED. SOMEWHERE AROUND DOROTHY AND BUNDY OR SOMETHING.

# 346 Q:

AROUND DOROTHY AND BUNDY, THIS INTERSECTION WE'VE SEEN SO MANY TIMES?

# 347 A:

I DON'T REMEMBER WHERE EXACTLY ON THAT CORNER, HOW FAR FROM THAT CORNER.

# 348 Q:

WHAT KIND OF CAR WAS IT?

# 349 A:

I NEVER SAW THE CAR. UMM, I BELIEVE I WAS TOLD IT WAS A TOYOTA, BUT I NEVER SAW THE VEHICLE.

# 350 Q:

BUT YOU NEVER SAW THE VEHICLE. YOU DON'T RECALL IT WHEN YOU WERE OUT THERE, RIGHT?

# 351 A:

NO, SIR.

# 352 Q:

ALL RIGHT. SO WHO WAS DRIVING THE VEHICLE WHEN YOU AND FUHRMAN LEFT? WHICH VEHICLE WERE YOU DRIVING?

# 353 A:

I WAS DRIVING MY VEHICLE.

# 354 Q:

OKAY. AND FUHRMAN AND YOU HAD COME TO THE SCENE IN THAT SAME VEHICLE?

# 355 A:

YES, SIR.

# 356 Q:

ALL RIGHT. AND THEN YOU -- WHEN YOU WENT OVER TO THE ROCKINGHAM LOCATION, DO YOU RECALL WHETHER OR NOT YOU INVITED A PHOTOGRAPHER TO COME WITH YOU?

# 357 A:

NO, SIR, WE DID NOT.

# 358 Q:

WERE THERE ANY UNIFORMED POLICE OFFICERS WHO ACCOMPANIED YOU FROM BUNDY OVER TO ROCKINGHAM?

# 359 A:

NO. WE REQUESTED ONE AFTER WE HAD GOTTEN THERE.

# 360 Q:

SO AT FIRST, IT WAS JUST THE FOUR OF YOU DETECTIVES; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 361 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

# 362 Q:

IN TWO SEPARATE CARS; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 363 A:

YES, SIR.

# 364 Q:

AND BECAUSE ALL FOUR OF YOU LEFT THE SCENE LEAVING THE BODIES THERE; THAT'S WHEN LIEUTENANT ROGERS WAS LEFT THERE?

# 365 A:

LIEUTENANT ROGERS WAS LEFT IN CHARGE. HE WAS VANNATTER'S -- EXCUSE ME -- VANNATTER AND LANGE'S SUPERVISOR. SO I WOULD IMAGINE THEY LEFT HIM IN CHARGE.

# 366 Q:

DO YOU KNOW WHETHER OR NOT HE CALLED FOR THE CORONER?

# 367 A:

NO, SIR.

# 368 Q:

DO YOU KNOW WHETHER OR NOT HE CALLED FOR A CRIMINALIST?

# 369 A:

NO, SIR.

# 370 Q:

ALL RIGHT. SO YOU THEN DROVE OVER TO THE ROCKINGHAM RESIDENCE; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 371 A:

YES, SIR.

# 372 Q:

AND YOU DESCRIBED FOR US GETTING -- YOUR GETTING TO THE LOCATION; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 373 A:

YES.

# 374 Q:

AND AGAIN, YOUR PURPOSE WAS TO GO THERE JUST TO BREAK THE NEWS TO MR. SIMPSON; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 375 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

# 376 Q:

AND VANNATTER AND LANGE JUST DECIDED THEY'D JUST COME ALONG TO FIND OUT WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN; IS THAT RIGHT?

# 377 A:

NO, I DON'T THINK THEY JUST DECIDED TO COME ALONG. IT WAS THEIR CASE. THEY HAD A RIGHT TO COME ALONG. THEY WERE THE INVESTIGATING OFFICERS ON THE CASE.

# 378 Q:

ALL RIGHT. THEY HAD A RIGHT TO COME ALONG -- BY THE WAY, THEY DIDN'T HAVE A SEARCH WARRANT, DID THEY, AT THAT POINT?

# 379 A:

NO, SIR.

# 380 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION.

# 381 THE COURT:

OVERRULED. EXCUSE ME. SUSTAINED. THAT'S IRRELEVANT.

# 382 Q:

BY MR. COCHRAN: AT ANY RATE, YOU RODE TO THE LOCATION; IS THAT RIGHT? AND WHAT TIME DID YOU GET TO ROCKINGHAM?

# 383 A:

I BELIEVE IT WAS SHORTLY AFTER 5:00.

# 384 Q:

AND YOU DESCRIBED FOR US HOW YOU TRIED TO -- YOU RANG THE BELL TO TRY TO GET INSIDE; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 385 A:

RANG THE BELL TO TRY GET SOMEONE INSIDE TO ANSWER IT.

# 386 Q:

TO ANSWER? AND AT SOME POINT, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN ON HIS OWN CLIMBED OVER THE FENCE AND OPENED THE FENCE AND LET THE OTHERS OF YOU IN; IS THAT RIGHT?

# 387 A:

WHEN YOU SAY ON HIS OWN, HE WENT UNASSISTED OVER THE FENCE, BUT HE WENT OVER THE WALL BECAUSE VANNATTER OR LANGE HAD TOLD HIM TO DO THAT.

# 388 Q:

ALL RIGHT. I UNDERSTAND THAT THE TWO WHO WERE IN CHARGE APPARENTLY TOLD HIM TO DO THAT, BUT HE WENT -- NOBODY INVITED HIM OVER THERE. HE DID IT ON HIS OWN, RIGHT?

# 389 A:

IT DID IT ON THE DIRECTION OF THE SUPERVISOR.

# 390 Q:

HE CLIMBED OVER THE FENCE?

# 391 A:

YES.

# 392 Q:

AND HE OPENED THE GATE; IS THAT RIGHT?

# 393 A:

HE UNLATCHED SOMETHING ON THE GATE THAT CAUSED IT TO OPEN. I DON'T KNOW WHAT HE DID.

# 394 Q:

AND AT THE TIME THAT -- WHAT TIME WAS THAT WHEN HE WENT OVER THE FENCE, CLIMBED OVER THIS FENCE?

# 395 A:

WELL, IT WAS SHORTLY BEFORE 5:00 O'CLOCK, 10 MINUTES BEFORE. I AM SORRY. 10 MINUTES BEFORE 6:00 O'CLOCK.

# 396 Q:

WELL, LET'S SEE. YOU LEFT BUNDY ABOUT 5:00 OR SO?

# 397 A:

UH-HUH. YES. I AM SORRY.

# 398 Q:

YES? ALL RIGHT. YOU GOT OVER THERE AND HOW LONG WERE YOU OUTSIDE BEFORE FUHRMAN CLIMBED OVER THIS FENCE?

# 399 A:

30, 35 MINUTES PROBABLY.

# 400 Q:

DID THE WESTEC PEOPLE COME DURING THAT PERIOD OF TIME?

# 401 A:

TWO OF THEM DID.

# 402 Q:

OKAY. WAS THERE A SERGEANT?

# 403 A:

EVENTUALLY, YES.

# 404 Q:

DO YOU REMEMBER EITHER OF THE WESTEC INDIVIDUALS' NAMES?

# 405 A:

NO, SIR.

# 406 Q:

YOU HAD CONVERSATIONS WITH THEM?

# 407 A:

JUST THE ONE.

# 408 Q:

IS THAT WHEN YOU WENT INTO ALL THIS EFFORT TO TRY TO GET THE PHONE NUMBER OF MR. SIMPSON?

# 409 A:

YES, SIR.

# 410 Q:

IS THAT RIGHT?

# 411 A:

YES, SIR.

# 412 Q:

WAS THERE A BLACK AND WHITE POLICE VEHICLE THERE PRESENT BEFORE MARK FUHRMAN CLIMBED OVER THAT FENCE?

# 413 A:

YES, SIR.

# 414 Q:

WHAT TIME DID THE BLACK AND WHITE ARRIVE, IF YOU RECALL?

# 415 A:

I WOULD SAY IN THE AREA OF 20 MINUTES TO 6:00.

# 416 Q:

ALL RIGHT. DO YOU KNOW THE NAMES OF THE OFFICERS WHO WERE THERE AT THAT POINT? WAS THERE MORE THAN ONE?

# 417 A:

YES. I BELIEVE IT WAS OFFICER ASHTON, A-S-H-T-O-N, AND I BELIEVE HIS PARTNER WAS GONZALES.

# 418 Q:

OFFICER GONZALES?

# 419 A:

YES.

# 420 Q:

AND THEY WERE THERE YOU THINK BY 20 OF 6:00; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 421 A:

I DON'T KNOW ACTUALLY WHAT TIME THEY WERE THERE. THEY WERE THERE BEFORE THEY WENT OVER THE WALL BECAUSE I REQUESTED THEM.

# 422 Q:

ALL RIGHT. AND THEN YOU DIDN'T GO OVER THE WALL. FUHRMAN WENT OVER THE WALL; IS THAT RIGHT?

# 423 A:

YES, SIR.

# 424 Q:

AND AFTER HE WENT OVER THE WALL, HE THEN LET THE REST OF YOU IN; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 425 A:

YES.

# 426 Q:

AND YOU DESCRIBED FOR US THAT AFTER GAINING ENTRANCE AND GOING OVER THIS WALL -- BY THE WAY, YOU ULTIMATELY PASSED BY OR SAW A MAN BY THE NAME OF KATO KAELIN; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 427 A:

YES, SIR.

# 428 Q:

AND HE WAS TALKED TO FAIRLY EARLY THAT MORNING; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

# 429 A:

HE WAS TALKED TO, YES.

# 430 Q:

DID YOU TELL US IN YOUR DIRECT EXAMINATION THAT KATO KAELIN TOLD YOU HE DIDN'T KNOW WHETHER OR NOT O.J. SIMPSON HAD LEFT TOWN?

# 431 A:

HE SAID SOMETHING TO THAT EFFECT. I DON'T RECALL EXACTLY WHAT HE SAID, MR. COCHRAN.

# 432 Q:

ALL RIGHT. YOU SO TESTIFIED YESTERDAY --

# 433 MR. COCHRAN:

WELL, MAY I APPROACH, YOUR HONOR? I WOULD LIKE TO MARK DEFENDANT'S NEXT IN ORDER D-1024.

# 434 (DEFT'S D-1024 FOR ID = DOC DTD 6-13-94)

# 435 MS. CLARK:

YOUR HONOR, MAY WE APPROACH?

# 436 THE COURT:

YES, WITH THE COURT REPORTER, PLEASE.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (4)

Ron Phillips

FUHRMAN IS NOT MY PARTNER. I SUPERVISE MARK FUHRMAN'S WORK. SO HE'S AN INDIVIDUAL THAT WORKS FOR ME OR HE'S NOT MY PARTNER AT THIS TIME.

Phillips distances himself from Fuhrman by asserting a supervisory rather than peer relationship — a distinction Cochran immediately turns against him by noting Fuhrman acted 'on the direction of the supervisor.'

Johnnie Cochran

ALL FOUR DETECTIVES, ALL HOMICIDE DETECTIVES LEAVE THE BODIES OUT THERE, THE CORONER HAS NOT BEEN NOTIFIED, YOU ALL GO OVER TO ANOTHER LOCATION TO GIVE NOTIFICATION TO A MAN THAT YOU DON'T KNOW WHETHER HE'S HOME OR NOT. IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING TO US?

Core defense argument: the abandonment of the crime scene to go to Rockingham was procedurally indefensible and suggests an ulterior motive beyond mere notification.

Ron Phillips

HE SAID THAT, 'MAKE SURE THAT YOU NOTIFY MR. SIMPSON IF POSSIBLE IN PERSON PRIOR TO THE NEWS MEDIA FINDING OUT BECAUSE IT WOULD BE INSENSITIVE FOR HIM TO FIND OUT THROUGH THE NEWS MEDIA ABOUT WHAT'S TAKING PLACE AT THIS HOUSE ON BUNDY.'

Reveals the origin of the 'VIP notification' order — Commander Bushey — which Cochran uses to argue Simpson received special treatment that drove irregular police behavior.

Ron Phillips

I HAVE IT ALL LAID OUT FOR ME THE NIGHT BEFORE... I'VE GOTTEN IT DOWN TO A SCIENCE.

A rare light moment; Phillips explaining how he dressed and was driving within 18 minutes of a 1 a.m. call.

Evidence (3)

Defense 1022

Four-page handwritten notes by Detective Fuhrman from the night of the murders

Shown to Phillips to confirm Fuhrman's handwriting and to introduce the dog-bite theory and pizza menu notation; Phillips admits he never read them before passing them to Vannatter and Lange

Defense 1023

Three-page document (exact contents not specified in transcript)

Marked for identification

People's 60

Phillips's personal cellular telephone call records for June 12–13, 1994

Discussed in detail; Cochran walks through each call to identify who was contacted and why, noting most were off-duty detectives with no obligation to respond

Notable Exchanges (4)

Johnnie Cochran•Ron Phillips

Cochran presses Phillips on whether anyone checked the Akita's mouth for bite evidence or notified hospitals about dog-bite victims. Phillips concedes none of this was done and he gave no instructions to do so.

strategic

Johnnie Cochran•Ron Phillips

Cochran challenges the 'VIP notification' directive from Commander Bushey, noting LAPD policy covers next of kin — not an ex-husband — and that Nicole Brown Simpson's parents received no comparable notification effort.

pointed

Johnnie Cochran•Ron Phillips

Cochran establishes that all four detectives left Bundy while bodies were still present, no coroner had been called, no criminalist (Fung) was on scene, and Lieutenant Rogers was left nominally in charge. Phillips cannot confirm Rogers called the coroner or criminalist.

revealing

Johnnie Cochran•Ron Phillips

Cochran asks whether Fuhrman climbed the Rockingham wall 'on his own.' Phillips insists it was on Vannatter/Lange's direction — but Cochran's framing ('nobody invited him over there') echoes the defense's warrantless-entry argument.

strategic

Light Moments (2)

Johnnie Cochran / Ron Phillips

Cochran: 'YOU'RE A FAST DRESSER, AREN'T YOU?' Phillips: 'I HAVE IT ALL LAID OUT FOR ME THE NIGHT BEFORE... I'VE GOTTEN IT DOWN TO A SCIENCE.' Phillips got dressed and was driving within 18 minutes of a 1 a.m. call.

Johnnie Cochran

Cochran momentarily asks about giving Rossi a cell phone, then catches himself mid-sentence confusing Riske and Rossi, saying 'I'M GETTING SOME HELP TO THE LEFT, YOUR HONOR' before rephrasing.

Credibility Attacks (3)

⚔ Ron Phillips

Omission / investigative failure

Cochran establishes that Phillips took no notes at either Bundy or Rockingham, never read Fuhrman's notes, never checked whether the Akita bit anyone, never verified Ron Goldman's car, and left the crime scene before the coroner or criminalist arrived.

⚔ Ron Phillips

Policy violation / selective enforcement

Cochran uses LAPD's own next-of-kin notification policy to show Simpson — as ex-husband, not next of kin — received special treatment at the direction of a commander, while Nicole's parents did not receive equivalent effort.

⚔ Mark Fuhrman (indirectly)

Prior statement / notes

Fuhrman's own field notes reference the dog-bite theory and the pizza menu — neither of which was followed up. Phillips admits he never heard the theory from anyone, highlighting a disconnect between what Fuhrman wrote and what was investigated.

Witness Demeanor

(BRIEF PAUSE.) — noted during exhibit handling

(DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL.) — Cochran confers with co-counsel before rephrasing the Riske/Rossi cell phone question

Objections

2 objections (2 sustained, 0 overruled)

Proceeding 5042 • 436 utterances • Prosecution witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103