📄 Direct examination of Dr. Henry Lee (part 1) — Friday, August 25, 1995
Address:
C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\AUG\25\DIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-DR-HENRY.DOC
TRIAL
▲ Day 142 of 167

Direct examination of Dr. Henry Lee (part 1)

Witness: Dr. Henry Lee
Examiner: Barry Scheck
Called by: Defense • Date: Friday, August 25, 1995 • Utterances: 730
Defense forensic expert Dr. Henry Lee continued his direct examination by Barry Scheck, presenting photographic evidence from his June 25, 1994 visit to the Rockingham residence showing negative presumptive blood tests throughout the foyer, staircase, and hallway. The bulk of the session focused on Lee's painstaking chain-of-custody analysis of Item 47 (a Bundy walkway blood drop), in which he demonstrated wet blood transfer patterns on the evidence bindle, arguing that blood swatches were packaged while still wet — a practice Lee said could cause cross-contamination and false DNA readings. Lee also testified that Bronco bloodstains were consistent with light smears producible with less than 1cc of blood, and that blood at Rockingham was consistent with a superficial cut rather than a major wound.
1 MR. SCHECK:

Yes. Thank you, your Honor. And I hope to conclude the direct examination. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen of the jury.

THE JURY: Good morning.

DIRECT EXAMINATION (RESUMED) BY MR. SCHECK

2 MR. SCHECK:

Dr. Lee--

3 THE COURT:

Excuse me, Mr. Scheck. Miss Moxham, our court reporter, indicates that she's probably able to go through to the noon hour.

4 MR. SCHECK:

Great. Your Honor, with permission of the court, I'd like to take out a board.

5 THE COURT:

You may. Mr. Harris.

6 MR. SCHECK:

This would be Defense next in order, 1356, and this board is entitled Rockingham residence, front foyer.

7 THE COURT:

1356, eight photographs.

8 (Deft's 1356 for id = board)
9 THE COURT:

All right. Dr. Lee, you may step down to see that.

10 DR. LEE:

Thank you, your Honor.

11 MR. SCHECK:

Dr. Lee, were these photographs taken on the June 25th visit that you previously have described to us at Mr. Simpson's home?

12 DR. LEE:

Yes.

13 MR. SCHECK:

All right. And could you please, starting with the photograph on the upper left-hand corner of 1356, entitled "Front entrance," describe for us what is shown on this board?

14 DR. LEE:

In June 25th, 1994, afternoon, approximately 4:00 o'clock, I took this photograph (Indicating). Shows a overall view of this front entrance door, enter the residence.

15 MR. SCHECK:

Dr. Lee, at that time, did you perform any presumptive tests on the doorknobs and lock mechanisms and light switches in this area?

16 DR. LEE:

Yes, sir.

17 MR. SCHECK:

What did you do and what were the results?

18 DR. LEE:

I did that chemical presumptive test, generally refer o-tolidine test, which will react with heme or any peroxidase, a colorless reagent will turn to a blue color. If that turn to blue, indicates certain result. If no reaction, did not turn blue, means absence of blood.

19 MR. SCHECK:

What were the results of your test--did you test anything on the doorknobs here?

20 DR. LEE:

I test both outside, inside doorknob, door hinge, other area, the light switches and all this area, metal surface, the door side (Indicating).

21 MR. SCHECK:

Were the results negative?

22 DR. LEE:

The result--

23 MR. GOLDBERG:

Objection, your Honor, to presumptive blood testing.

24 THE COURT:

Overruled.

25 DR. LEE:

All my test result were negative.

KEY QUOTE
26 MR. SCHECK:

Did you perform--did you examine the staircase going upstairs?

27 DR. LEE:

Yes, sir, I did.

28 MR. SCHECK:

And what did you do and what did you find?

29 DR. LEE:

I use a magnify glass, look through every steps. Any step have a discoloration or brownish color or any other indication, I will perform a test.

30 MR. SCHECK:

What results?

31 DR. LEE:

All negative.

32 MR. SCHECK:

Would that be an indication that there was no blood of any kind that you could detect in your examination of the stairs leading up to Mr. Simpson's bedroom?

33 DR. LEE:

The area I tested, I did not find any blood.

34 MR. SCHECK:

Did you do something--did you perform a--the same examination of the hallway that leads into Mr. Simpson's bedroom?

35 DR. LEE:

Yes.

36 MR. GOLDBERG:

Objection as to date, your Honor.

37 MR. SCHECK:

This is all on June 25th I take it?

38 DR. LEE:

Yes.

39 MR. SCHECK:

And what were the results there?

40 DR. LEE:

Negative.

41 MR. SCHECK:

Now, call your attention to the foyer floor photograph. Could you tell us what that is?

42 DR. LEE:

Foyer floor photograph is depict a center portion of the front enter foyer--foyer. I have to point it out. This is not an imperfection of the floorboard. It's a photograph provide to me by Mr. Shapiro. That's a original photograph was taken by LAPD. I use that photograph to locate the floorboard. Floorboard have different number of some type of--like nail-type of object so I can identify this area (Indicating). So I was subsequently able to locate the area LAPD tested.

43 MR. SCHECK:

Now, this is--if one gets close to this photograph, one can detect that this is an evidence card indicating item no. 12, and it shows three blood drops in that area; is that correct?

44 DR. LEE:

Yes, sir.

45 MR. SCHECK:

And so this photograph then I guess you're saying is your effort to locate exactly where that was on the floor as you saw it on June 25th?

46 DR. LEE:

Yes.

47 MR. SCHECK:

Is that right?

48 DR. LEE:

Yes.

49 MR. SCHECK:

Okay. Please proceed.

50 DR. LEE:

Upon checking the area, I was able to identify the three locations. The three location apparently been swabbed and created a swab pattern. I was able to recognize that. Compare with the photograph, I was able to identify the location.

51 MR. SCHECK:

Did you locate any other reddish stains that were consistent with bloodstains in that area?

52 DR. LEE:

Yes, sir.

53 MR. SCHECK:

Are those depicted on the remaining photographs?

54 DR. LEE:

Yes.

55 MR. SCHECK:

Could you please describe that?

56 DR. LEE:

Subsequently, I noticed there are three additional stain, this stain 1, stain no. 2, stain no. 3. This is a close-up view. The last column top picture shows this close-up view of this particular stain (Indicating).

57 MR. SCHECK:

So altogether, if one counts the three stains identified by LAPD as item no. 12 and the stains that you found, how many bloodstains were in this area altogether?

58 DR. LEE:

Six.

59 MR. SCHECK:

Were there any differences that you could detect between the--in terms of size with respect to these stains?

60 DR. LEE:

The three which are already swabbed, one I was able positively determine the size because the periphery cross still remain. Two other, as you can see depict in this photo, been swabbed around, swabbed around. The diameter of this swabbed-around area is approximately half inch. The original blood drop size is going to be much smaller than what been swabbed because when you drop a drop of stain, if you try to swipe it, you going to create bigger area. The three I examed, I was use a scale was able to determine two smaller one, is one 15, one of 15 in diameter. Other one is one of the 10 inches, one of 10 inches, 10th of an inch, 15th of an inch. So it is relative small bloodstain (Indicating).

61 MR. SCHECK:

Now, are some of these bloodstains consistent with vertical droplets?

62 DR. LEE:

They're all consistent with droplets. It's not a regular blood drop. It's a droplet, smaller drops.

63 MR. SCHECK:

So some are bigger, some are smaller?

64 DR. LEE:

Yes.

65 MR. SCHECK:

Would the smaller stains--would any of these be consistent with what is known as a cast-off pattern?

66 DR. LEE:

Yes.

67 MR. SCHECK:

And so if one had a superficial cut on the side of a finger and shook it in the fashion that I'm doing--

68 MR. SCHECK:

Let the record reflect that I'm shaking my hand down.

69 MR. SCHECK:

--does that create cast-off pattern?

70 DR. LEE:

Yes.

71 MR. SCHECK:

And would that be consistent with what you found here?

72 DR. LEE:

Yes.

73 MR. SCHECK:

Could the pattern that you found here be consistent with a superficial cut on the side of the finger?

74 DR. LEE:

It consistent with a small volume of blood.

75 MR. SCHECK:

Is the pattern that you see here consistent with a major cut?

76 DR. LEE:

No.

77 MR. SCHECK:

All right. Your Honor, we're finished with this board.

78 THE COURT:

All right.

79 MR. SCHECK:

Dr. Lee, before I move on to the next series of boards, I'd like to ask you briefly some questions about the Bronco. Did you have an opportunity to personally examine and look at the Bronco?

80 DR. LEE:

No.

81 MR. SCHECK:

Could you do a reconstruction of the Bronco?

82 DR. LEE:

I cannot do a reconstruction because I did not have a direct examination, observation of original condition.

83 MR. SCHECK:

Did you have an opportunity to look at some pictures of the blood in the Bronco?

84 DR. LEE:

Yes, I did. I look some of the photographs sent to me.

85 MR. SCHECK:

What is the pattern of the bloodstains you saw in those photographs?

86 THE COURT:

It's vague.

87 MR. GOLDBERG:

No foundation.

88 THE COURT:

It's vague.

89 MR. SCHECK:

Could you, from looking at those pictures, characterize what kind of bloodstain you saw?

90 MR. GOLDBERG:

Still vague, overly broad, no foundation.

91 THE COURT:

Date and time, which photos, which part of the Bronco.

92 MR. SCHECK:

Which photos did you look at?

93 DR. LEE:

How do I know?

94 MR. SCHECK:

Well--

95 DR. LEE:

I don't know.

96 MR. SCHECK:

Did you look at photos of the door, the--

97 MR. GOLDBERG:

Leading.

98 MR. SCHECK:

--driver's door--

99 THE COURT:

Overruled.

100 MR. SCHECK:

--of the Bronco?

101 DR. LEE:

Yes. I look at some photo appears to depict a door.

102 MR. SCHECK:

All right. Did you look at photos of the console?

103 DR. LEE:

Yes. I did look at picture depict portion of the console.

104 MR. SCHECK:

Dr. Lee, what is a smear?

105 DR. LEE:

A smear is a contacts with a movement.

106 MR. SCHECK:

All right. Were the pattern of bloodstains that you saw depicted in the photographs on the door and the console, were they smears?

107 DR. LEE:

Appear to be consistent with smear.

108 MR. SCHECK:

To the extent you could tell from the photographs, what kinds of smears are they in terms of the saturation?

109 DR. LEE:

I only--

110 MR. GOLDBERG:

Vague, your Honor, no foundation.

111 THE COURT:

Sustained.

112 MR. SCHECK:

From the photographs, could you make a judgment as to whether these were heavily saturated smears or slight smears?

113 MR. GOLDBERG:

Still vague. No foundation.

114 THE COURT:

Overruled.

115 DR. LEE:

It consistent with light smear.

116 MR. SCHECK:

Now, take, for example, the console. What kind of surface is that?

117 DR. LEE:

I don't know.

118 MR. SCHECK:

Well, what is a nonabsorbent surface?

119 MR. GOLDBERG:

Your Honor, this is leading.

120 THE COURT:

Sustained.

121 MR. SCHECK:

What is a nonabsorbent surface?

122 THE COURT:

In this context, it is.

123 MR. SCHECK:

Is a plastic--could you describe--in terms of absorbencies, can you characterize categories of surfaces?

124 DR. LEE:

Yes.

125 MR. SCHECK:

What are they?

126 DR. LEE:

Well, you can put in two general category. Some are absorbent, some not absorbent. Of course, there are some in-between. A surface like plastic generally refer nonabsorbent surface. A surface with a tissue, cotton, those clothes is referred as an absorbent surface.

127 MR. SCHECK:

I ask you to assume that the console that you saw in that photograph is a plastic surface, nonabsorbent surface. Based on the photographs, can you make an estimate as to the volume of blood that it would take to create the smears, the light smears you saw on that surface?

128 MR. GOLDBERG:

No foundation, speculation.

129 THE COURT:

I think it's vague because there are separate smears on--appear to be on the console.

130 MR. SCHECK:

Well, you saw a series of smears on the console?

131 MR. GOLDBERG:

Your Honor, also no foundation as to which photos.

132 THE COURT:

Sustained.

133 MR. SCHECK:

All right. Have you seen photographs of the console with--

134 MR. GOLDBERG:

Leading.

135 MR. SCHECK:

I haven't led him.

136 THE COURT:

Proceed.

137 MR. SCHECK:

--with evidence tags on them provided to you from the LAPD?

138 DR. LEE:

Appear to be some photographs provide to me by the Defense counsel.

139 MR. SCHECK:

All right. Now, from those photographs, what can you--can you tell precisely what the volume of blood is on those surfaces?

140 MR. GOLDBERG:

Still vague, no foundation.

141 THE COURT:

Sustained.

142 MR. SCHECK:

Were these photographs of the console?

143 DR. LEE:

Yes.

144 MR. SCHECK:

Series of smears on the console?

145 DR. LEE:

Yes.

146 MR. SCHECK:

From those photographs, can you tell us precisely how much blood there was on that console?

147 MR. GOLDBERG:

Vague. No foundation, speculation.

148 THE COURT:

Sustained. Foundation, counsel.

149 MR. SCHECK:

From the photographs you saw--

150 THE COURT:

Counsel, as soon you say--we're not getting past the photographs. What photographs?

151 MR. SCHECK:

All right. Did you see photographs with evidence markers labeled 30, 31?

152 MR. GOLDBERG:

Leading.

153 THE COURT:

Overruled.

154 DR. LEE:

Uh, I think I saw a photograph in that nature.

155 MR. GOLDBERG:

Motion to strike. Speculation.

156 THE COURT:

Overruled.

157 MR. SCHECK:

Did you see additional photographs taken on August 26th that had numbers 303, 304, 305?

158 THE COURT:

Counsel, these photographs are in evidence on boards. Why don't we just show them to Dr. Lee and say, "Are these the photographs you saw? Based upon what you saw there as to this area, can you tell us how much blood is there?" Otherwise, the jury has no idea what we're talking about.

159 MR. SCHECK:

Well, I'm trying to be expeditious, your Honor. I think we've all seen these photographs.

160 THE COURT:

Well, maybe Mr. Blasier can find it for you.

161 MR. SCHECK:

We will move on to something else, your Honor. I thought this was self-evident, but in my desire to be expeditious--

162 MR. GOLDBERG:

Your Honor, I make a motion to strike counsel's comment.

163 THE COURT:

Yes. Yes. Thank you.

164 (Brief pause.)
165 MR. SCHECK:

Your Honor, I would ask that this board be marked as Defendant's 1357 entitled, "Bloodstains on evidence bag."

166 THE COURT:

So marked.

167 (Deft's 1357 for id = board)
168 MR. SCHECK:

Well, better yet, before we do that, your Honor, with the court's permission, I'd like to display 1167 and 1087. 11--1087 is photograph of the console with tags 30 and 31 and 1167 is the August 26th photographs of the stains on the console.

169 (Brief pause.)
170 MR. SCHECK:

Dr. Lee, I show you first 1087. Is that the photograph we were referring to before with the evidence tags 30 and 31 taken on June 14?

171 DR. LEE:

Yes.

172 MR. SCHECK:

I'd like to show you the next photograph, which is 1167. Is that the console picture from the August 26th search with the numbers 303, 304, 305 and 306 on it, the ones we were talking about before?

173 DR. LEE:

Yes.

174 MR. SCHECK:

All right. Now, Dr. Lee, with respect to these photographs, going back to the question I was asking you before, I'm asking you to assume--you did not actually inspect the physical--the console itself?

175 DR. LEE:

No, I did not.

176 MR. SCHECK:

Couldn't get to see the Bronco itself?

177 DR. LEE:

No.

178 MR. GOLDBERG:

Wait a minute. Couldn't--motion to strike that.

179 MR. SCHECK:

Did not see the Bronco itself.

180 THE COURT:

He's rephrased the question. Proceed.

181 MR. SCHECK:

Did not see the Bronco itself?

182 DR. LEE:

No, I did not.

183 MR. SCHECK:

All right. So you can only base this on the pictures?

184 DR. LEE:

Yes.

185 MR. SCHECK:

And the assumption that this is a nonabsorbent plastic surface that I'm asking you to make?

186 DR. LEE:

Also assume the color is a true representation of the original color.

187 MR. SCHECK:

In the photographs?

188 DR. LEE:

Photograph.

189 MR. SCHECK:

Based--given those limitations, based on what you see, can you tell precisely how much blood is on the console?

190 MR. GOLDBERG:

No foundation, calls for opinion, speculation.

191 THE COURT:

Overruled.

192 MR. GOLDBERG:

May we approach?

193 THE COURT:

No.

194 DR. LEE:

I cannot tell you exactly volume just by looking these two pictures. There are methods. If I have the console, I can determine the volume.

195 MR. SCHECK:

Can you give us from the pictures an estimate as to terms of small or large the kind of volume that would be required to make those kinds of smears that you observed in the photograph given the limitations that have been described?

196 MR. GOLDBERG:

Vague, no foundation, speculation, conjecture.

197 THE COURT:

Vague, small or large.

198 MR. SCHECK:

Well, could those smears be made with less than 1 cc of blood?

199 MR. SCHECK:

Same objection, your Honor.

200 THE COURT:

Overruled.

201 DR. LEE:

Yes. Could be made much less than 1 cc.

KEY QUOTE
202 MR. SCHECK:

Thank you. Now, turning to what is 1357, the board "Entitled bloodstain on evidence bag." Doctor, I would ask you to come off the witness stand and describe for us--could you first tell us what are these pictures and where were they taken?

203 DR. LEE:

This board consist of four pictures which was taken February 18, 1995, while I was in Albany medical center, exam some evidence sent to me by LAPD.

204 MR. SCHECK:

The picture on the upper left-hand corner of this board entitled "Bloodstains on outside of paper bag, item 78, boots," what does that show?

205 DR. LEE:

This is a view of a portion of the brown paper bag which have a labeling, numbering outside of the initial "CY," and some lettering. It describe to me this bag--

206 MR. GOLDBERG:

Seems to call for hearsay.

207 THE COURT:

Sustained. Ask a question.

208 MR. SCHECK:

All right. Based on the numbers there and the property report records you had, what item did this bag correlate with?

209 MR. GOLDBERG:

No foundation.

210 THE COURT:

Overruled.

211 DR. LEE:

Item 78, boot.

212 MR. SCHECK:

Ron Goldman's boots?

213 DR. LEE:

Yes.

214 MR. SCHECK:

What are the--what observations can you make based on this photograph?

215 DR. LEE:

This photograph at the opening of this paper bag near the lettering A-774, here I see a contact smear approximately four inches long. The ruler where indicates shows the length of this contact smear (Indicating).

216 MR. SCHECK:

What is the photograph on the bottom left-hand side here?

217 DR. LEE:

Bottom left-hand side shows a close-up view of this contact smear area.

218 MR. SCHECK:

The photograph--I'm sorry. Is there anything else that we should observe about the close-up of this what you have called--why do you call this "Wet blood transfers"?

219 MR. GOLDBERG:

No foundation for that.

220 THE COURT:

Sustained.

221 MR. SCHECK:

All right. The board contains the phrase "Wet blood transfers" in relation to this picture. Could you please explain that?

222 DR. LEE:

When I exam this stain carefully, it's a contact smear made of blood. This blood has to be in wet stage to get transfer. Once it dry, you cannot transfer anymore. So that's why I refer a close-up view of a wet blood transfer.

223 MR. SCHECK:

And let me see if I understand this. You're saying that what has to be wet in order to cause this kind of transfer stain?

224 DR. LEE:

Yes, sir.

225 MR. SCHECK:

The object that is making--

226 DR. LEE:

The object, the surface of items on either a glove or any object have some wet blood touch this brown paper bag cause this transfer with the motion.

227 MR. SCHECK:

And what is the photograph on the upper right-hand corner of this board entitled, "Bloodstains inside paper bag, item 78?" What does that represent?

228 DR. LEE:

The paper bag when I look at the inside, I see wet transfer inside of the bag. The mechanism of this transfer remains the same. Has to be a wet surface, wet object with some wet blood--I'm sorry--a surface object with some wet blood contact this brown paper bag cause such transfer.

229 MR. SCHECK:

And what is the picture, the lower right hand that says close-up wet blood transfers?

230 DR. LEE:

The close-up shows some of the blood has soaked through other side to the exterior surface.

231 MR. SCHECK:

All right. Now, is it a good procedure to put an object such as a boot that is still wet with blood inside a paper bag?

232 MR. SCHECK:

Assumes facts not in evidence.

233 THE COURT:

Overruled.

234 DR. LEE:

I cannot say what LAPD procedure. I did not review it. I've not come here to criticize anybody. My own procedure, if I collect, I don't put an object wet.

KEY QUOTE
235 MR. SCHECK:

And why wouldn't you put a wet object into such a paper bag?

236 DR. LEE:

Because a transfer, you change the pattern. If an object have two or three different type of blood grouping, because this transfer, now you may resolve some false reading.

KEY QUOTE
237 MR. SCHECK:

Is that--could create mixtures?

238 DR. LEE:

Yes.

239 MR. SCHECK:

Where there weren't originally mixtures?

240 DR. LEE:

Yes.

241 MR. SCHECK:

Is that what's sometimes known as cross-contamination?

242 DR. LEE:

Yes.

243 MR. SCHECK:

I think we're finished with this board.

244 MR. SCHECK:

Doctor--

245 THE COURT:

Mr. Scheck, you put up another board?

246 MR. SCHECK:

Yes. This would be 13--

247 THE COURT:

58.

248 MR. SCHECK:

--58, and this board is entitled, "History of item 47 blood drop on Bundy walkway."

249 (Deft's 1358 for id = board)
250 MR. SCHECK:

Now, Dr. Lee, could you please describe for us this board starting with the picture on the upper left-hand side entitled, "Item 47 overall view." What is that photograph? What does it show?

251 DR. LEE:

Items 47, overall view, is a crime scene photograph taken by LAPD photographer subsequently provide to me by Defense team which depicts overall view of walkway with some number plate indicate certain locations.

252 MR. SCHECK:

The photograph immediately to the right, what is that?

253 DR. LEE:

This photograph also provide by the Defense team. It shows a close-up view of this 112, photo plate no. 112. That's a blood-like drop on the walkway, the Bundy walkway.

254 MR. SCHECK:

Now, on the bottom left-hand side of the board, there is a work sheet entitled, "Collection note, June 13th, 1994." Could you please describe for us what this is?

255 DR. LEE:

This is a document which provide by you, indicates a collection note.

256 MR. GOLDBERG:

Well, no foundation for personal knowledge, your Honor.

257 THE COURT:

Sustained.

258 MR. SCHECK:

All right. Were you provided the collection notes made out by Dennis Fung and Andrea Mazzola as well as serology notes made by Collin Yamauchi as part of the discovery process in this case?

259 MR. GOLDBERG:

Hearsay, calls for conclusion, no personal knowledge.

260 THE COURT:

Overruled. Were you provided with such documents?

261 DR. LEE:

Yes, sir.

262 THE COURT:

Next question.

263 MR. SCHECK:

Calling your attention to this collection note of June 13th--

264 MR. GOLDBERG:

No foundation through this witness.

265 MR. SCHECK:

I think we've already had testimony on this, your Honor.

266 THE COURT:

Overruled.

267 MR. SCHECK:

What is this note?

268 DR. LEE:

It appear to be a documentation which shows the collection, the location of each stain, where they collected and item number, property item number and photograph.

269 MR. SCHECK:

Your Honor, with permission, I would like to take one of yellow marker to just highlight item 47 on this particular note.

270 THE COURT:

You may.

271 MR. SCHECK:

(Indicating).

272 MR. SCHECK:

Dr. Lee, does this indicate--well, this photograph of, referring now to item 47, close-up photo 112, this does not contain an id photo with scale and id?

273 DR. LEE:

No.

274 MR. GOLDBERG:

Your Honor, this has been gone over.

275 THE COURT:

Sustained. The picture pretty much speaks for itself too, counsel.

276 MR. SCHECK:

Yes.

277 MR. SCHECK:

Were the number of swatches used to collect the stain counted or recorded on this note?

278 DR. LEE:

No.

279 MR. GOLDBERG:

Your Honor, no foundation.

280 THE COURT:

Overruled. It's not there, but we went over this on cross-examination of Mr. Fung.

281 MR. SCHECK:

I understand. Just moving along and refreshing--

282 THE COURT:

No. We don't need to refresh, counsel.

283 MR. SCHECK:

No.

284 MR. SCHECK:

Dr. Lee, in your opinion, would it be your practice, if you were to take swatches in this fashion, to count and record the number?

285 MR. GOLDBERG:

Objection. Not relevant.

286 THE COURT:

Overruled.

287 DR. LEE:

I only can testify our procedure. I'm not here to criticize anybody else procedure. It's a good practice to count the number.

288 MR. SCHECK:

And now call your attention to a serology note of June 19th, 1994 of Collin Yamauchi and call your attention to the item 47. Have you reviewed this, Dr. Lee?

289 DR. LEE:

Yes.

290 MR. SCHECK:

All right. And are you familiar with the--

291 THE COURT:

All right. The record should reflect that counsel is highlighting that portion on that lower right-hand photograph.

292 MR. SCHECK:

Are you familiar with the drawings made by Mr. Yamauchi of the swatches he found in the bindle for item no. 47 on the morning of June 14th?

293 DR. LEE:

Yes.

294 MR. SCHECK:

All right. And with respect to--

295 MR. GOLDBERG:

Your Honor, this has been the subject of previous testimony. I object under 352.

296 THE COURT:

Overruled.

297 MR. GOLDBERG:

And no foundation.

298 THE COURT:

Overruled. I haven't heard the question.

299 MR. SCHECK:

With respect to this diagram on the area indicating "Samples remaining"--

300 THE COURT:

Diagram, counsel?

301 MR. SCHECK:

I'm sorry?

302 THE COURT:

You're talking about Mr. Yamauchi's serology report, correct?

303 MR. SCHECK:

Yes.

304 THE COURT:

You said "Diagram."

305 MR. SCHECK:

I'm sorry.

306 MR. SCHECK:

In the report, there's a box indicating "Sample remaining." All right?

307 DR. LEE:

Yes, sir.

308 MR. SCHECK:

How many swatches are indicated there as remaining?

309 MR. GOLDBERG:

Same objection.

310 THE COURT:

Sustained. The document speaks for itself, counsel.

311 MR. SCHECK:

Well, does the document indicate that seven swatches are remaining?

312 MR. GOLDBERG:

Leading. Same objections.

313 THE COURT:

Overruled.

314 DR. LEE:

Yes.

315 MR. SCHECK:

In terms of the diagram itself, how many boxes do you see there?

316 DR. LEE:

I counted appear to be eight.

317 MR. SCHECK:

Is there a notation here--

318 MR. GOLDBERG:

Your Honor, I'm going to object to any further questions on this document. It speaks for itself.

319 THE COURT:

Speaks for itself, counsel.

320 MR. SCHECK:

Well, your Honor, this is foundation and I'm just moving on.

321 THE COURT:

Counsel, we've seen it. You cross-examined Mr. Yamauchi extensively on it. What this witness happens to see there, the jurors have seen the document, the document is here in front of them.

322 MR. SCHECK:

Yes.

323 THE COURT:

Let's proceed.

324 MR. SCHECK:

Well, I'll move expeditiously.

325 MR. SCHECK:

Is there one section there indicating that one of those swatches was sampled?

326 MR. GOLDBERG:

Your Honor, that's improper.

327 THE COURT:

Sustained.

328 MR. SCHECK:

Next board, please. Your Honor, can we approach for just a second?

329 THE COURT:

Nope. Proceed.

330 MR. SCHECK:

This board would be 1359. It's entitled, "History of item 47, blood drop on Bundy walkway."

331 (Deft's 1359 for id = item 47, blood)
332 MR. SCHECK:

Dr. Lee, on the left-hand side of this board, there's a--something in--there's a report indicating work sheet by Mr. Yamauchi that's entitled "Serology note of July 21st, 1994." Do you recognize this as a summary sheet indicating a transfer of swatches?

333 MR. GOLDBERG:

The document speaks for itself.

334 THE COURT:

Overruled.

335 DR. LEE:

Yes.

336 MR. SCHECK:

What does it indicate?

337 MR. GOLDBERG:

No foundation, calls for hearsay.

338 THE COURT:

Sustained. The document speaks for itself, counsel.

339 MR. SCHECK:

All right. There's a section here indicating--

340 MR. GOLDBERG:

Same objection.

341 THE COURT:

Overruled.

342 MR. SCHECK:

"Daytime sample prepared 7-1994, size, description, prepared sample" and a diagram of five swatches and then the next box indicating date sent July 24th, 1994. Do you see that.

343 MR. GOLDBERG:

Your Honor, same objections. May we approach?

344 THE COURT:

Overruled. No, neither of you. Now, proceed.

345 MR. SCHECK:

And there's another box here indicating "Sample remaining size and description" and that has two swatches, correct?

346 MR. GOLDBERG:

No foundation, calls for hearsay, speculation.

347 THE COURT:

Overruled. Counsel is directing the witness' attention to a particular part of this document. I assume there's a question coming after this.

348 MR. SCHECK:

Yes.

349 MR. SCHECK:

Dr. Lee, now, on the right-hand side of that diagram, there's a picture, indicates five swatches, July 27th, 1994, Cellmark. Did you take that picture?

350 DR. LEE:

Yes.

351 MR. SCHECK:

Could you please explain the facts and circumstances that led you to take that picture?

352 DR. LEE:

On July 27th, 1994, I have a call order, receive that document by the Defense team to appear in Cellmark to observe the testing and to remove 10 percent of the sample from each item.

353 MR. GOLDBERG:

Narrative.

354 THE COURT:

Overruled.

355 MR. SCHECK:

When you arrived at Cellmark, did you have an opportunity to see the samples unpacked?

356 DR. LEE:

This particular sample, yes.

357 MR. SCHECK:

All right. Did you have an opportunity to photograph them?

358 DR. LEE:

Yes.

359 MR. SCHECK:

As they were unpacked?

360 DR. LEE:

Yes.

361 MR. SCHECK:

What is that photograph we see there?

362 DR. LEE:

This photograph depicts on July 27 when this sample, no. Item 47, with the letter H unpacked, inside contents, five swatches. Subsequently, we label together with the Cellmark scientist HA, HB, HC, HE and HD to indicate this H that's from 47 and five separate swatches, A, B, C, D, E.

363 MR. SCHECK:

All right. Did you subsequently receive a photograph that was taken on August 12th, 1994 at the Department of Justice of two swatches from item 47 and the bindle in which it arrived?

364 DR. LEE:

Yes.

365 MR. SCHECK:

Is that depicted at the bottom right-hand side of this photograph?

366 DR. LEE:

This photograph depicts a portion view of a manila envelope with item 47, however, with a letter B as in boy. Inside contents, two swatches.

367 MR. SCHECK:

Have the next board, please. This would be 1360. Your Honor, just for the record, I'm going to highlight the item 47 on the work sheet.

368 THE COURT:

Yes.

369 (Indicating.)
370 THE COURT:

All right. This will be 1360.

371 (Deft's 1360 for id = board)
372 MR. SCHECK:

Now, Dr. Lee, do you have--you're familiar with the kinds of swatches used by the Los Angeles Police Department for creating the swatches in this case?

373 DR. LEE:

Yes.

374 MR. SCHECK:

Have you actually examined samples of swatches provided to you by them?

375 DR. LEE:

Yes.

376 MR. SCHECK:

Are you familiar with the material?

377 DR. LEE:

Yes.

378 MR. SCHECK:

Do you have experience in how long it would take one of these swatches that had distilled water and blood on it in the fashion described by Miss Mazzola in terms of swatching blood? Do you have some experience in assessing the time it takes such a swatch to dry?

379 MR. GOLDBERG:

Your Honor, I object. May we approach?

380 THE COURT:

Overruled.

381 DR. LEE:

I have experience swatch, use similar kind of cotton swatch myself. My people or my student, we determine the time required for a swatch to dry. I don't know what Miss Mazzola--I did not observe her to swatch it. So I cannot say I have experience with her.

382 MR. SCHECK:

Uh-huh. Now--

383 MR. GOLDBERG:

Nonresponsive, your Honor. Motion to strike.

384 THE COURT:

Overruled.

385 MR. SCHECK:

Now, in your opinion, how long would it take one of these swatches to dry if it were put into a test tube in a wet state and the test tube was open and the test tube--and the environment was a cabinet at room temperature?

386 MR. GOLDBERG:

Your Honor, no--

387 THE COURT:

Sustained. Counsel--counsel, counsel, be careful here.

388 MR. SCHECK:

Okay.

389 MR. GOLDBERG:

Your Honor, may we approach?

390 THE COURT:

No.

391 MR. SCHECK:

In your opinion, how long would it take--

392 THE COURT:

Try again. Move on. Move on. Move on.

393 MR. SCHECK:

Ask you to assume that a swatch, a wet blood swatch was put into a test tube and left there for 12 hours, 10 to 12 hours--I'll withdraw that question for the time being. Dr. Lee, I call your attention now to what has been marked as Defense 1360, a board entitled, "History of item 47, blood drop on Bundy walkway, blood swatches and bloodstain patterns of wet transfers." Dr. Lee, could you describe what the first photograph in the middle of this board is?

394 DR. LEE:

The first photograph depicts on the board upper row is Cellmark. At that time, we photograph the five swatches.

395 MR. SCHECK:

And what is the photograph in the lower left-hand side here?

396 DR. LEE:

Second photograph is a close-up view of the DOJ photograph, shows the two swatches. In addition, there are some reddish color imprint on this so-called bindle, paper. Actually it's a piece of paper.

397 (Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)
398 MR. SCHECK:

Incidentally, Dr. Lee, what procedures do you use to dry swatches with blood and how long in your experience does it generally take?

399 MR. GOLDBERG:

Not relevant under Kourish and also, your Honor--

400 THE COURT:

Sustained. Sustained.

401 MR. SCHECK:

Now, Dr. Lee--

402 THE COURT:

You can ask him what's indicated by this photograph.

403 MR. SCHECK:

I'm going to get to that, your Honor, but I think--well, we'll discuss this later.

404 THE COURT:

Proceed.

405 MR. SCHECK:

Now, Dr. Lee, in the course of reviewing discovery in this matter, did you have occasion to review notes made by Gary Sims at the Department of Justice with--with respect to his observations of item no. 47, the bindle and the swatches that he received on August 18th, 1994?

406 MR. GOLDBERG:

Calls for hearsay, no foundation.

407 THE COURT:

Overruled. The fact he observed something doesn't call for hearsay. Want an answer to that question, Mr. Scheck?

408 MR. SCHECK:

Yes. I thought he said yes.

409 DR. LEE:

Yes. Thank you, your Honor.

410 THE COURT:

You are welcome.

411 MR. SCHECK:

And are the notes that Mr. Sims made with respect to his observations the kinds of materials that an expert in your field ordinarily relies upon in forming scientific opinions?

412 DR. LEE:

Yes.

413 MR. SCHECK:

And I'd like to--

414 (Brief pause.)
415 MR. SCHECK:

Your Honor, for the record, I'll ask to mark these two pages 1360-A, document of two pages.

416 THE COURT:

All right. 1360-A.

417 (Deft's 1360-A for id = two-page document)
418 MR. GOLDBERG:

May I take a look at that, your Honor?

419 THE COURT:

Sure.

420 MR. GOLDBERG:

I think I've seen it. There's some markings on this, your Honor.

421 MR. SCHECK:

I'll get a redacted copy form.

422 THE COURT:

All right. Thank you.

423 MR. SCHECK:

Dr. Lee, I show you this note. Now, are you familiar with it?

424 DR. LEE:

Yes.

425 MR. SCHECK:

All right. Your Honor, with your permission, I'd like to read the note and ask Dr. Lee if the observations here are consistent with what he sees in the photograph.

426 MR. GOLDBERG:

Calls for hearsay.

427 THE COURT:

Sustained.

428 MR. SCHECK:

Well, does--do these notes reflect observations by Mr. Sims that are consistent with what you see in this photograph?

429 MR. GOLDBERG:

Calls for conclusion. Same objection.

430 THE COURT:

Overruled.

431 DR. LEE:

Yes.

432 MR. SCHECK:

All right. Is there a record here of the wet transfer that you just pointed out to the jury and a description of it?

433 THE COURT:

Sustained. Sustained. That's hearsay.

434 MR. SCHECK:

On the second page of this document, does Mr. Sims indicate with respect to item 49--

435 MR. GOLDBERG:

Your Honor, same objection.

436 THE COURT:

Sustained. Mr. Cochran.

437 MR. SCHECK:

I call your attention now to the photograph entitled, "New haven," on this board. Could you please describe what that is?

438 DR. LEE:

This is a photograph which I took at new haven on April 2nd, 1995 when finally the original bindle, so-called bindle--actually it's a paper packet--sent to me. I photograph that. Shows one swatch left.

439 MR. SCHECK:

Now, I ask you to examine this photograph which I'd like to mark 13--

440 THE COURT:

60.

441 MR. SCHECK:

60-C. Small photograph.

442 THE COURT:

What was B?

443 MR. SCHECK:

I think a were the two pieces of paper for Mr. Sims, and I'd ask that this photograph be marked as B.

444 THE COURT:

B.

445 (Deft's 1360-B for id = photograph)
446 THE COURT:

Madam reporter, how's your paper supply?

447 THE COURT REPORTER:

Fine.

448 THE COURT:

All right.

449 MR. SCHECK:

Dr. Lee, what is 1360-B?

450 DR. LEE:

1360-B is a photograph which I took, shows the interior surface of this paper packet or bindle which, with my ruler, indicates the presence of some wet transfer imprints.

451 MR. SCHECK:

With the court's permission, I'd like to put this up for a minute on the elmo.

452 THE COURT:

Yes.

453 (Brief pause.)
454 THE COURT:

I think we're slightly out of focus there, Mr. Harris. Thank you.

455 MR. SCHECK:

Your Honor, I'd ask that the witness be allowed to use the telestrator and focus on the two on the top.

456 THE COURT:

Put an arrow on the items he notes.

457 MR. SCHECK:

Dr. Lee, using the telestrator, could you point out the stains of interest and please direct Mr. Harris on--

458 DR. LEE:

Basically shows the four transfer imprint.

459 MR. SCHECK:

All right. Could we print this out as 1360--

460 THE COURT:

C.

461 MR. SCHECK:

C.

462 (Deft's 1360-C for id = printout)
463 THE COURT:

All right. Let's clear the telestrator. Mr. Scheck.

464 MR. SCHECK:

Dr. Lee, you've now focused in on two of these transfers. Could you please identify them and describe them?

465 DR. LEE:

The first one appears to be a parallelogram, a pattern of transfer. The second one is consistent with a square shape transfer.

466 MR. SCHECK:

Can we print this out as 1360-D?

467 THE COURT:

As in David.

468 MR. SCHECK:

As in David.

469 (Deft's 1360-D for id = printout)
470 THE COURT:

Go ahead, Mr. Scheck.

471 MR. SCHECK:

All right.

472 THE COURT:

It doesn't take long to capture it. It just takes longer to print it out.

473 MR. SCHECK:

No. I understand.

474 THE COURT:

All right.

475 MR. SCHECK:

He says I can't move it yet.

476 (Brief pause.)
477 MR. SCHECK:

Move to the other side, please.

478 MR. SCHECK:

Dr. Lee, what is this?

479 DR. LEE:

Here is another parallelogram transfer imprint. Here appears to be a double triangle transfer imprint (Indicating).

480 MR. SCHECK:

All right. Can we print that out as 1360-E.

481 THE COURT:

E as in Edward.

482 (Deft's 1360-E for id = printout)
483 MR. SCHECK:

Now, Dr. Lee--now, Dr. Lee, I take it that the picture in 1360 that you made of swatches at Cellmark from the picture that you took in new haven as is reflected by 1360-A, the one that we had up on the elmo, both have rulers?

484 DR. LEE:

Yes.

485 MR. SCHECK:

All right. And by means of that as a scale, were you able to do enlargements of--and I should--withdraw--and also the picture from the Department of Justice I see has a ruler.

486 DR. LEE:

Yes.

487 MR. SCHECK:

And by means of using those rulers as scales, were you able to do enlargements of the swatches depicted in this board and also the bindle that you saw in new haven?

488 DR. LEE:

Yes.

489 MR. SCHECK:

Your Honor, I would like to now move to the next board.

490 (Brief pause.)
491 MR. SCHECK:

This will be 1361.

492 THE COURT:

So marked.

493 (Deft's 1361 for id = board)
494 MR. SCHECK:

"History of item 47, blood drop on Bundy walkway." Dr. Lee, what is this?

495 DR. LEE:

Uh, before we--

496 DR. LEE:

Your Honor, I have--I made a mistake.

497 THE COURT:

All right. Why don't you talk to Mr. Scheck briefly.

498 DR. LEE:

March 9th--

499 THE COURT:

Wait. Excuse me, counsel. Mr. Scheck, why don't you confer with your witness for a moment.

500 (Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel and the witness.)
501 MR. SCHECK:

Dr. Lee, you just indicated that you made an error in your discussion. Could you please describe what that is?

502 DR. LEE:

Just now, I appear say April 6th, 1995. If my memory serve me correctly, that's incorrect. Should be March 9, 1995 in new haven.

503 MR. SCHECK:

What does this board represent, the photographs here?

504 DR. LEE:

This shows the date which when the bindle shipped to me by Johnnie Cochran's office. I open up the bindle, paper packet. Inside have a small paper packet, contents, one swatch. Wet transfer was noticed. So I took a series of photograph to show this wet transfer.

505 MR. SCHECK:

And one of those photographs was the one we put up on the elmo before?

506 DR. LEE:

Yes. This is the top one.

507 THE COURT:

I'm sorry, counsel. Which photograph?

508 MR. SCHECK:

He's indicating that 1360--

509 THE COURT:

No, I understand. Is one of the photographs we put up on the elmo?

510 MR. SCHECK:

I'm about to say.

511 MR. SCHECK:

1360-C is a close-up of blood patterns of wet transfer that is reflected on this exhibit in the upper right-hand corner and is so labeled?

512 DR. LEE:

Yes, sir.

513 MR. SCHECK:

And that is the photograph with the ruler?

514 DR. LEE:

Yes.

515 MR. SCHECK:

Now--

516 MR. SCHECK:

I think we can move to the next board.

517 MR. GOLDBERG:

Your Honor, on this board, I'm going to object subject to a motion to strike for accurately blowing up the photograph.

518 THE COURT:

All right.

519 MR. SCHECK:

Now, I would like this board marked as 13--

520 THE COURT:

62.

521 MR. SCHECK:

62.

522 (Deft's 1362 for id = board)
523 MR. SCHECK:

And, Dr. Lee, what is that--this?

524 DR. LEE:

This is a further enlargement of the photograph just depicts in the previous exhibit, the top one of the second column.

525 MR. SCHECK:

All right. And, Dr. Lee, I'm going to mark a series of--have seven brown photographs, each separate, and ask you to tell us what these are, and first just generally, and then we'll mark them individually. What are these in general?

526 DR. LEE:

This in general stains, seven pieces of enlargement of blood swatches, one set label HA through E, five of them, HA, HB, HC, HD, HE.

527 MR. SCHECK:

Are those blow-ups of pictures that we saw in the tray that had the same markings, the one picture you took at Cellmark?

528 DR. LEE:

Cellmark, yes.

529 MR. GOLDBERG:

Also object, subject to motion to strike, same ground as to the blow-ups.

530 THE COURT:

Overruled. Proceed.

531 MR. SCHECK:

Wasn't that supposed to be done at another time?

532 THE COURT:

Proceed.

533 MR. SCHECK:

What are the other two?

534 DR. LEE:

The other two is the enlargement, same scale, same proportion, the two swatches from DOJ, Department of Justice photo.

535 MR. SCHECK:

Your Honor, these I would ask then to mark--

536 MR. SCHECK:

Is this board a magnified board, Dr. Lee?

537 DR. LEE:

Yes.

538 MR. SCHECK:

Are those blow-ups of the swatches also magnified?

539 DR. LEE:

Yes.

540 MR. SCHECK:

Your Honor, the--on the back of the magnified swatches are labels HA, HB, HC, HD and he that correspond with the Cellmark swatches. So I'd ask that those be labeled--

541 THE COURT:

We'll do 1362-HA, HB, HC, et cetera.

542 MR. SCHECK:

Okay.

543 THE COURT:

So that we'll know what they are.

544 MR. SCHECK:

Thank you. And then the remaining two swatches--

545 THE COURT:

Are these DOJ?

546 MR. SCHECK:

The DOJ swatches.

547 THE COURT:

DOJ 1 and DOJ 2.

548 MR. SCHECK:

Okay. Just get a--

549 THE COURT:

1362 DOJ 1 and DOJ 2.

550 (Deft's 1362-HA through HE, DOJ 1 and DOJ 2 for id = blow-up photographs)
551 MR. SCHECK:

And the record should reflect I'm--I'm just going to lay them out for a second, your Honor, if I might on the jury box so that the jury can see the labels on the back.

552 THE COURT:

The labels on the back? No. The labels aren't relevant for the jurors.

553 MR. SCHECK:

Well, the HA, B, C. All right.

554 THE COURT:

We'll need some foundation as to scale and correlation, counsel.

555 MR. SCHECK:

Dr. Lee, could you describe the process by which the swatches and this board were enlarged?

556 DR. LEE:

You all have a ruler. The red ruler is my ruler. That take so-called 16-inch ruler. So basically you can look at this. This is a metric system, and one millimeter is equivalent now to 18 millimeter. That's the ruler enlargement. So the rest of a pattern is enlarged with that.

557 MR. GOLDBERG:

Your Honor, for the record, Dr. Lee produced one of his rulers. Could we mark that as an exhibit?

558 THE COURT:

Yes. We'll make that 1362, ruler.

559 (Deft's 1362 ruler for id = ruler)
560 THE COURT:

I take it this is one of your souvenir rulers?

561 DR. LEE:

Yes.

562 THE COURT:

Thank you.

563 MR. GOLDBERG:

And also for the record--I don't know if this was reflected--he was using this ruler to measure the enlargement.

564 THE COURT:

Yes.

565 MR. SCHECK:

And were the swatches enlarged in the same fashion?

566 DR. LEE:

I did not enlarge those myself.

567 MR. SCHECK:

Did you direct that they be enlarged on a one to one?

568 DR. LEE:

Yes.

569 MR. SCHECK:

Now--

570 DR. LEE:

What your question? One to one?

571 MR. SCHECK:

What was your direction with respect to these?

572 DR. LEE:

I say enlarged with the same scale, same proportion.

573 MR. SCHECK:

Now, Dr. Lee, what can you tell us about the nature of these wet transfer patterns that are depicted on 1362?

574 DR. LEE:

Those--the mechanism of this transfer is relative straightforward and simple. A wet swatch have to contact this surface cause such a transfer. It's no alternative. That's scientific fact. We see some transfer. That's called mechanism. As far as manners, they may have different explanation.

575 MR. GOLDBERG:

At this point, no question pending.

576 THE COURT:

Next question.

577 MR. SCHECK:

All right. Dr. Lee, have you made an effort using these swatches and looking at the transfer patterns to see if you can match up the swatches to the patterns? And could you please explain your analysis.

578 DR. LEE:

We have seven swatches, appear to be four patterns. However, we do see some of the pattern appear to either have a movement or some addition. But we don't have all seven.

KEY QUOTE
579 MR. SCHECK:

Excuse me. When you say, "All seven," you mean you don't have seven--

580 DR. LEE:

I don't have seven perfect pattern, transfer pattern. I have seven swatches. One of those pattern appear to be a mirror image of each other. That's consistent with a parallelogram which almost fit of one of these swatches.

581 MR. SCHECK:

One second, please. The record will reflect that Dr. Lee has pointed to the pattern on the upper left-hand side of 1362, a pattern on the upper right-hand side of 1362 and he is handling a swatch that is labeled "He."

582 DR. LEE:

He.

583 THE COURT:

And because it's magnified, he's placed it over that pattern. Yes.

584 DR. LEE:

You can fit here. If this portion of the paper touch this one, because this side going to fit on this side. So that's why we refer a copy or mirror image. The next one I can see copy fit is this one, only portion fit this corner, but the other side may be some reason did not have a direct contact so that this one is a copy (Indicating).

585 MR. SCHECK:

Let the record reflect that Dr. Lee has been referring here to the swatch labeled "HD" and is referring to the transfer pattern on the left side of 1362, but is lower than the other one we previously referred to.

586 THE COURT:

Why don't we mark these 1 through 4 going left to right. That will be easier if we do that for the record.

587 MR. SCHECK:

Okay.

588 THE COURT:

Why don't you take a marker and just have Dr. Lee number them 1 through 4 starting at the left.

589 DR. LEE:

Further left-hand side one, we mark with 1, 2, 3, 4 (Indicating).

590 THE COURT:

Mr. Scheck.

591 MR. SCHECK:

All right. Dr. Lee, you were about to, before I interrupted you, move on to the next swatch and pattern.

592 DR. LEE:

I think we lost one swatch.

593 MR. SCHECK:

This was HD, the one you were just referring to.

594 DR. LEE:

As I explain earlier, 1 and 4 could be a mirror image. 2 may be explainable. 3, if you look carefully, may be--the view is not too good, but you look carefully, appear to be a double image with a triangle shape. So the only triangle I have is this HB. However, this triangle is much bigger than this triangle unless this triangle folded in certain condition, which I have no knowledge of it. The rest of 4, I can't find anyplace to fit by looking at pattern, looking at the shape and the number unless have other type of explanation (Indicating).

595 THE COURT:

All right. Mr. Scheck, I'm sorry. Forgive me for interrupting you at this time. We have a request for a comfort break. So we'll stay in place, and any jurors who need to take a quick comfort break, go ahead right now.

596 MR. SCHECK:

Your Honor, could we take that opportunity to approach quickly.

597 THE COURT:

No.

598 (Brief pause.)
599 (A conference was held at the bench, not reported.)
600 THE COURT:

All right. Miss Long, do we have everybody back?

601 THE BAILIFF:

Yes, we do.

602 THE COURT:

All right. All right. The record will reflect we're all comfortable. Mr. Scheck.

603 MR. SCHECK:

Now, Dr. Lee, have you had experience over the years dealing with swatches of this nature?

604 DR. LEE:

Yes.

605 MR. SCHECK:

Do you have an opinion as to whether or not swatches of this size, moistened with blood and distilled water, would be dry if left in a test tube for more than five hours?

606 MR. GOLDBERG:

Inadequate foundation.

607 THE COURT:

Sustained.

608 MR. SCHECK:

All right. Dr. Lee, what is your experience with drying of swatches of this nature?

609 DR. LEE:

Eventually swatch going to dry.

610 THE COURT:

Next question.

611 MR. GOLDBERG:

Nonresponsive.

612 MR. SCHECK:

Specifically, what experience, personal experience do you have in observing and noting the drying of swatches of this nature? Could you describe that experience for us?

613 MR. GOLDBERG:

Vague as to "Experience."

614 THE COURT:

Overruled.

615 DR. LEE:

A drop of stain, bloodstain found on a surface, if the stain already dry, if you try to transfer it to a swatch, you have to wet the swatch.

616 MR. GOLDBERG:

This is nonresponsive, your Honor. I don't think the witness understands.

617 MR. SCHECK:

I think he's--

618 THE COURT:

State another question. The issue is this witness' personal experience with blood swatching using swatches of this technique, this particular size and type, handling, packaging, et cetera.

619 MR. SCHECK:

Dr. Lee, do you have experience with the use of wetting swatches of this nature, swatching bloodstains and then observing how long it takes them to dry?

620 DR. LEE:

Yes.

621 MR. SCHECK:

Could you describe for us your experience in that regard?

622 DR. LEE:

Generally approximately three hours should be dry.

623 MR. GOLDBERG:

Your Honor, nonresponsive.

624 THE COURT:

The answer is stricken. The jury is to disregard.

625 MR. SCHECK:

Have you done that? Have you observed others do that?

626 MR. GOLDBERG:

Vague.

627 DR. LEE:

Yes.

628 THE COURT:

Answer will stand. Next question.

629 MR. SCHECK:

All right. And when you have done that and observed others do that, how long does it take swatches of this nature to dry?

630 MR. GOLDBERG:

Your Honor, same objection.

631 THE COURT:

Sustained. Inadequate foundation.

632 MR. SCHECK:

All right. When I say "Do that"--

633 THE COURT:

Mr. Scheck, what I'm interested in, personal experience swatching, personal experience in the drying process, personal experience then having dried them, then packaging them, personal experience, number of years, et cetera, et cetera.

634 MR. GOLDBERG:

May I take the witness on voir dire very briefly, your Honor, on this issue?

635 THE COURT:

Yes, you may.

636 MR. SCHECK:

Well, can I ask some questions before he does that?

637 THE COURT:

I'll overrule myself. Mr. Scheck, proceed. But that's my area of interest at this point.

638 MR. SCHECK:

I understand.

639 MR. SCHECK:

Dr. Lee, have you had experience using swatches of this kind to collect bloodstains?

640 DR. LEE:

Yes.

641 MR. SCHECK:

What is it?

642 DR. LEE:

Over the year, I collect numerous stain, especially early days, we don't--we have to do electrophoresis of blood grouping. We generally use a swatch method. Nowaday, we don't use that anymore.

643 MR. SCHECK:

All right. And in those days when you used the swatch method, what would you do and what is your experience in collecting the swatch, drying it and putting it in paper material?

644 DR. LEE:

We have to let the swatch dry and transfer to a paper packet and preserve it.

645 MR. SCHECK:

All right. Have you had experience in putting swatches that were not dry on top of paper surfaces such as this?

646 DR. LEE:

Yes.

647 MR. SCHECK:

And what results when the swatches are not dry?

648 MR. GOLDBERG:

Your Honor, no foundation.

649 THE COURT:

Overruled.

650 MR. GOLDBERG:

May I take the witness briefly on voir dire?

651 THE COURT:

No. Proceed.

652 MR. GOLDBERG:

Just for a few moments?

653 THE COURT:

He's in the process of laying the foundation, counsel. He's not giving an opinion yet.

654 MR. GOLDBERG:

He just asked for one.

655 MR. SCHECK:

No. I just said what happens--

656 THE COURT:

Counsel, please listen to me. Lay the foundation.

657 MR. SCHECK:

In your experience, what happens when a wet swatch is laid on a piece of paper such as this?

658 DR. LEE:

Going to cause a transfer.

659 MR. SCHECK:

All right. Do you have experience with how long it takes a swatch such as the kind used here and such as the kind you've used before to dry?

660 MR. GOLDBERG:

Vague as to what circumstances.

661 THE COURT:

Overruled.

662 DR. LEE:

Yes.

663 MR. SCHECK:

What is that experience and what are those circumstances?

664 MR. GOLDBERG:

Well, it's compound.

665 THE COURT:

Sustained. Rephrase the question.

666 MR. SCHECK:

What is your experience?

667 DR. LEE:

My experience--

668 MR. GOLDBERG:

Calls for conclusion.

669 THE COURT:

Overruled.

670 MR. GOLDBERG:

No foundation.

671 THE COURT:

No foundation to explain his experience? Overruled. Dr. Lee, what's your experience handling swatches, drying them, packaging them?

672 DR. LEE:

Okay. I have a lot of experience handling, drying and packaging. If a wet swatch did not dry, if you put the paper packet, going to have a transfer. Swatch will take a while to dry.

673 MR. GOLDBERG:

Your Honor, this is nonresponsive.

674 THE COURT:

How do you dry them, doctor?

675 DR. LEE:

I dried in the open air. I also dried in the test tube or dry in a open blood bench with a cover or cabinet.

676 MR. SCHECK:

What is the range of time it takes in your experience for such swatches to dry?

677 MR. GOLDBERG:

No foundation.

678 THE COURT:

Doctor, after you put a swatch in a test tube to dry, I take it you leave it for a period of time?

679 DR. LEE:

Yes, sir.

680 THE COURT:

In your experience, how long in your procedure do you leave those swatches in test tubes to dry?

681 DR. LEE:

We generally leave overnight.

682 THE COURT:

Next question.

683 MR. SCHECK:

And when you leave overnight, what is the result in the morning?

684 MR. GOLDBERG:

No foundation.

685 THE COURT:

Overruled.

686 DR. LEE:

It dry.

687 MR. SCHECK:

And when we're talking overnight, what range of hours?

688 DR. LEE:

Usually between eight to 10, 12 hours.

689 MR. SCHECK:

All right. Now, Dr. Lee, given your experience with how long it takes swatches to dry, let me ask you to assume that the swatches in question here were put into test tube at around 6:30 on the evening of June 13th and then removed and placed in a bindle, at the earliest, 7:30 A.M. the next morning.

690 MR. GOLDBERG:

Misstates the testimony.

691 THE COURT:

Overruled.

692 MR. SCHECK:

Would you expect those swatches to be dry?

693 MR. GOLDBERG:

No foundation.

694 THE COURT:

Overruled.

695 DR. LEE:

Yes.

696 MR. SCHECK:

Given that, Dr. Lee, how can you explain the wet transfer patterns you have identified on the bindle from item 47?

697 MR. SCHECK:

Calls for speculation.

698 THE COURT:

Sustained.

699 MR. SCHECK:

What is your opinion as to the mechanism of transfer that you--

700 THE COURT:

That created these bloodstains.

701 MR. SCHECK:

--that created these bloodstains? Thank you.

702 DR. LEE:

The mechanism of creation of those bloodstain has to have a wet swatch touch the surface of the paper and with certain pressure cause such a transfer.

703 MR. SCHECK:

Can you tell us anything about the manner of transfer?

704 MR. GOLDBERG:

Calls for speculation.

705 THE COURT:

Sustained.

706 MR. SCHECK:

All right. Based on this bloodstain pattern, what is your opinion with respect to the method of transfer--manner of transfer?

707 DR. LEE:

I don't know. I only can report a scientific fact. As far as manner--

708 MR. GOLDBERG:

No question pending.

709 THE COURT:

Overruled. He's not finished his answer.

710 DR. LEE:

As a manner, something, somebody has to put the swatch in the bindle, cause such a transfer. Who did it, what happened, I don't know.

711 THE COURT:

Next question.

712 MR. SCHECK:

All right. On the face of it, are the existence of these wet transfer patterns, based on your experience, inconsistent with the swatches having been put in the test tube 6:30 P.M. on June 13th and then removed at 7:30 A.M. on June 14th?

713 MR. GOLDBERG:

Speculation, conjecture, no foundation.

714 THE COURT:

Overruled.

715 MR. SCHECK:

Would you--let's put it--start it this way. You told us that one would expect that these swatches, having been put in a test tube at 6:30 P.M. on June 13th and removed at 7:30 A.M. on June 14th, to be dry.

716 DR. LEE:

Yes.

717 MR. SCHECK:

Given that fact--

718 THE COURT:

Given that opinion.

719 MR. SCHECK:

Given that opinion, what is your opinion about the existence of these transfer stains?

720 MR. GOLDBERG:

Overly broad, no foundation, calls for conclusion.

721 THE COURT:

Overruled.

722 DR. LEE:

Only opinion I can giving under this circumstance, something wrong.

723 MR. SCHECK:

No further questions, your Honor.

724 MR. GOLDBERG:

Motion to strike the phrase "Something wrong."

725 THE COURT:

Overruled. All right. Let me see counsel--

726 MR. SCHECK:

One second. I want to talk to my counsel. But I think that's the end of the examination.

727 THE COURT:

All right.

728 (Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)
729 THE COURT:

All right. Folks, there's a request by the lawyers for about a five- or 10-minute break. Let's take that break, and we'll come back and see if we can do some more business today. All right. Let's take 10. All right. Dr. Lee, you can step down.

730 (Recess.)

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (5)

Dr. Henry Lee
All my test result were negative.
Lee's conclusion from o-tolidine presumptive blood tests on doorknobs, hinges, light switches, stairs, and hallway at Rockingham — undermining prosecution's theory of a bloody killer returning home
Dr. Henry Lee
I cannot say what LAPD procedure. I did not review it. I've not come here to criticize anybody. My own procedure, if I collect, I don't put an object wet.
Lee's diplomatic but pointed criticism of LAPD's packaging of wet evidence — the foundation of the contamination/cross-contamination argument
Dr. Henry Lee
Because a transfer, you change the pattern. If an object have two or three different type of blood grouping, because this transfer, now you may resolve some false reading.
Core defense theory: wet swatches cross-contaminating each other in bags could create mixed DNA profiles that never originally existed together
Dr. Henry Lee
We have seven swatches, appear to be four patterns. However, we do see some of the pattern appear to either have a movement or some addition. But we don't have all seven.
Lee's swatch-matching analysis suggesting missing or unaccounted-for swatches from Item 47, supporting the defense narrative of evidence mishandling
Dr. Henry Lee
Yes. Could be made much less than 1 cc.
Minimizing the blood volume in the Bronco — consistent with a minor cut rather than evidence of a murder

Evidence (15)

Defense 1356
Board of 8 photographs, Rockingham residence front foyer, taken June 25, 1994
introduced and discussed by Lee
Defense 1087
Photograph of Bronco console with LAPD evidence tags 30 and 31, taken June 14
displayed for foundation
Defense 1167
Photographs of Bronco console stains from August 26 search, items 303-306
displayed and discussed
Defense 1357
Board entitled 'Bloodstains on evidence bag' — photographs of Item 78 (Ron Goldman's boots), showing wet blood contact smears on outside and inside of paper bag
introduced and discussed
Defense 1358
Board 'History of item 47 blood drop on Bundy walkway' — crime scene photos and Fung/Mazzola collection notes
introduced and discussed
Defense 1359
Board continuing Item 47 history — Yamauchi serology notes July 21 and photograph of 5 swatches Lee took at Cellmark July 27, 1994
introduced and discussed
+ 9 more

Notable Exchanges (4)

Barry ScheckHank GoldbergJudge Ito
Extended battle over Bronco console blood volume testimony — Goldberg objected repeatedly as vague and lacking foundation; Ito ultimately suggested Scheck just show the photographs already in evidence, leading to a testy exchange where Scheck said 'I thought this was self-evident' and Goldberg moved to strike the comment.
heated
Dr. Henry LeeBarry Scheck
Lee interrupted his own testimony to correct an error — he had said 'April 6th, 1995' for his New Haven visit but corrected it to 'March 9, 1995.' Ito called a recess for counsel to confer with the witness before Lee explained the correction on the record.
procedural
Barry ScheckJudge Ito
Scheck repeatedly attempted to elicit testimony about swatch drying times and Yamauchi's serology notes; Ito repeatedly cut him off — 'Move on. Move on. Move on.' and 'We don't need to refresh, counsel' — and the court sustained numerous objections that the documents spoke for themselves.
tense
Dr. Henry LeeJudge Ito
Lee placed an enlarged swatch (HE) over the transfer pattern on board 1362, demonstrating a possible match in open court. Ito clarified for the record: 'And because it's magnified, he's placed it over that pattern. Yes.'
revealing

Light Moments (4)

Judge Ito
After Lee's ruler was marked as an exhibit, Ito remarked: 'I take it this is one of your souvenir rulers?' Lee confirmed: 'Yes.'
Judge Ito
After a comfort break, Ito announced: 'All right. The record will reflect we're all comfortable. Mr. Scheck.'
Judge Ito
Ito checked in with the court reporter: 'Madam reporter, how's your paper supply?' She replied: 'Fine.'
Dr. Henry Lee
When Scheck asked Lee which photos he reviewed for Bronco analysis, Lee replied: 'How do I know? I don't know.' — a candid moment that briefly derailed the examination.

Credibility Attacks (2)

⚔ LAPD (Dennis Fung / Andrea Mazzola)
expert opinion on improper procedure
Lee testified that placing a wet blood-soaked object into a paper bag is contrary to proper forensic practice because it creates wet transfers and can cause cross-contamination, potentially generating false DNA mixtures. He was careful to phrase this as 'my own procedure' rather than direct criticism.
⚔ LAPD (Andrea Mazzola / Collin Yamauchi)
documentary inconsistency
Through Yamauchi's serology notes, Scheck established a discrepancy in the swatch count for Item 47: Yamauchi indicated 7 swatches remaining in the bindle, but his diagram showed 8 boxes, and Lee photographed only 5 swatches at Cellmark and 2 at DOJ — raising questions about missing or unaccounted evidence.

Witness Demeanor

(Indicating) — used extensively throughout as Lee pointed to photographs and boards
(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel and the witness) — Lee corrected date error
(Brief pause) — multiple pauses for equipment setup, telestrator printing
(A conference was held at the bench, not reported)

Objections

42 objections (16 sustained, 24 overruled)
Proceeding 7437 • 730 utterances • Defense witness
Criminal Trial
Department 103
⚖️ Start
📂 AUG 25, 1995 📄 Direct examination of Dr. Henr
AUG 25, 1995 KRT DvH TD