📄 Direct examination of Dr. Henry Lee (part 1) — Wednesday, August 23, 1995
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▲ Day 141 of 167

Direct examination of Dr. Henry Lee (part 1)

Witness: Dr. Henry Lee
Examiner: Barry Scheck
Called by: Defense • Date: Wednesday, August 23, 1995 • Utterances: 425
Barry Scheck continues his direct examination of Dr. Henry Lee, focusing on imprint evidence found on Ron Goldman's jeans and at the Bundy crime scene. Dr. Lee identifies parallel line imprint patterns (PLPs) on the jeans and walkway surfaces that he says are inconsistent with the Bruno Magli shoe associated with the case, suggesting a second person may have been present. The second half of the proceeding involves Dr. Lee using red ink and paper to demonstrate various bloodstain pattern types for the jury, resulting in several comedic moments.
1 MR. SCHECK:

Thank you, your Honor. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

THE JURY: Good morning.

DIRECT EXAMINATION (RESUMED) BY MR. SCHECK

2 MR. SCHECK:

Dr. Lee, we were talking yesterday about imprint evidence at Bundy and we had discussed first the board concerning the walkway; second, the board concerning the pieces of paper. And now I would like to turn our attention to a third board dealing with Mr. Goldman's jeans.

3 (Brief pause.)
4 THE COURT:

All right. Mr. Scheck, have we marked this board yet?

5 MR. SCHECK:

We have not, your Honor. I think this would be, if my memory serves, 1339.

6 THE COURT:

All right. 1339.

7 (Deft's 1339 for id = posterboard)
8 THE COURT:

Are there any remains on this matter?

9 MR. SCHECK:

Any remains? No, no.

10 THE COURT:

All right. Mr. Bancroft, may I see this, please.

11 (Brief pause.)
12 THE COURT:

Thank you. Mr. Scheck.

13 MR. SCHECK:

Dr. Lee, if you could come down from the witness stand.

14 DR. LEE:

Your Honor, may I step down? (Witness complies.)

15 MR. SCHECK:

And Dr. Lee, on February 19th, I believe a little over a month or so into this trial, did you have an opportunity to examine Mr. Goldman's jeans?

16 DR. LEE:

Yes, sir.

17 MR. SCHECK:

And could you describe, using the photograph on the far left-hand side, the blood spatter patterns that you found.

18 DR. LEE:

The first picture on the left-hand side appears to depict an overhead view of the front portion of the blue jean of Mr. Goldman. What we viewing now is flat, the blue jean put on--appear to be on the piece of paper. By no means that I try to say this is a three-dimensional setting where somebody wear a blue jean like this, (Indicating). That only shows a two-dimensional side. On the left-hand side we see large amount of bloodstain, covers from the top and downwards. In between there are some area we see the involved area. In addition we see blood spatter, like pattern. Other could be bloody imprint; however, when the large amount of blood cover the surface, those difficult to see and very difficult to determine what type of imprint evidence. However, on the right-hand side the amount of blood is much less than the left-hand side. On the waistband area we have a large blood pattern. In the lower leg area we do see large amount of blood pattern, (Indicating). In addition, some blood drops, blood spatters, but this middle portion, (Indicating), appear to have a lot of imprint type of pattern. This is a black and white picture. It is not a color picture. The real color picture of this, the blue--the jeans supposed to look like blue jean. By the way, it is a Levi type of blue jean. The black area is consistent with reddish color bloodstain.

19 MR. SCHECK:

Dr. Lee, the reason that you have put these up in black and white is what?

20 DR. LEE:

I'm not sure this is my picture or the picture state provide to me. It is a black and white picture that shows the pattern, (Indicating).

21 MR. SCHECK:

Now, Dr. Lee, have you been able to identify three areas of imprints that are of interest here that are depicted on the board?

22 DR. LEE:

Yes, sir.

23 MR. GOLDBERG:

Calls for a conclusion as to whether they are of interest.

24 THE COURT:

Foundation.

25 MR. SCHECK:

All right.

26 MR. SCHECK:

Do you have a red tape with you?

27 DR. LEE:

No, I don't have a red tape. I have a red marker.

28 MR. SCHECK:

Well, I'm talking about the red line tape?

29 DR. LEE:

I don't have that. Used to be on the table somewhere.

30 THE COURT:

What are you looking for, Mr. Scheck?

31 MR. SCHECK:

I have a sort of red twine.

32 THE COURT:

Twine?

33 MR. SCHECK:

We will find it.

34 MR. SCHECK:

Well, let me turn your attention first to imprint--what is labeled "Imprint 1." Could you please indicate for us, perhaps on the photograph--the larger photograph, where imprint 1 is? And your Honor, the record should reflect that we have created plastic overlays around each of these pictures so that Dr. Lee can draw on the plastic overlays.

35 THE COURT:

All right. The record should will reflect that this exhibit 1339 is comprised of four photographs. One photograph is marked "Blue jeans," and the remaining three are imprint 1, 2 and 3. Proceed.

36 DR. LEE:

Yes, sir. Imprint no. 1 is located in this area, (Indicating).

37 MR. SCHECK:

Could you just put a "1" to the left of that arrow.

38 (Witness complies.)
39 MR. SCHECK:

Thank you.

40 DR. LEE:

The landmark of this we see three consecutive drop--drops. Here is the three consecutive drops, (Indicating). That is the only area on this side of blue jean shows this landmark pattern. 1, 2, 3, (Indicating). 1, 2, 3, (Indicating). We see an imprint like pattern on the top right corner which is here, (Indicating). We see an imprint pattern consistent with a linear type of pattern in the middle portion, which in this location, (Indicating). Then we see additional pattern like two V's which located in here, (Indicating). So imprint no. 1 is the lower right side of the length area of this blue jean.

41 MR. SCHECK:

Now, when you talk about the v patterns, what kind of patterns are those?

42 DR. LEE:

When I talk about v pattern--

43 MR. SCHECK:

Could you put "V's" at the top of those arrows?

44 DR. LEE:

(Witness complies.) This v pattern is caused by so-called accordion effect. When the blue jean crunch up, the pant or shirt crunched up, some blood transfer onto this crunched area. Later, when you smooth it out, the exposed area going to have blood transfer. Unexposed area, exposed area, have now looks like a V, actually like an accordion when folding transfer. When you stretched out, you see this pattern, so which indicative, this portion of blue jean probably crunched up a little bit and we see two V's, yet we see a multiple V's, that is crunched up a lot.

45 MR. SCHECK:

Is there blood dripping patterns here?

46 DR. LEE:

In this location, (Indicating), we see blood dripping.

47 MR. SCHECK:

Could you please mark that "Bd."

48 (Witness complies.)
49 MR. SCHECK:

Okay. Now, do you see, Dr. Lee, in imprint area no. 1, parallel line imprint patterns?

50 DR. LEE:

I see some parallel line consistent with imprint.

51 MR. SCHECK:

Could you please indicate where that is?

52 (Witness complies.)
53 MR. SCHECK:

And could you mark below the arrow, why don't we call it "PLP," parallel imprint line pattern, what you think is appropriate.

54 DR. LEE:

You are the lawyer; I'm a scientist. "PLP."

KEY QUOTE
55 MR. SCHECK:

All right. Is there anything else that we should discuss about imprint no. 1?

56 DR. LEE:

Here have another imprint which I cannot tell, but it is not a parallel line pattern, (Indicating).

57 MR. SCHECK:

Do you want to--how would you like to label that? Question mark or--

58 DR. LEE:

You are attorney. Tell me--

59 MR. SCHECK:

What do you think is the most scientifically appropriate term?

60 DR. LEE:

Imprint with a question mark.

61 MR. SCHECK:

All right. Moving now to imprint no. 2.

62 DR. LEE:

Imprint no. 2, again we see some accordion effect. In addition, we see a pretty clear imprint on the--if I'm the board, on my right hand lower corner, this location, (Indicating), in the center of this location. It appears to have some parallel line.

63 MR. SCHECK:

So could you label that circle pattern "PLP again."

64 (Witness complies.)
65 MR. SCHECK:

And could you show us where on Mr. Goldman's jeans on the right pant leg that would be?

66 (Witness complies.)
67 MR. SCHECK:

Could you put a "2" near that arrow.

68 (Witness complies.)
69 MR. SCHECK:

Okay. Now, Dr. Lee, with respect to imprint area no. 2, is the parallel line pattern that you've circled there consistent with a partial shoeprint?

70 DR. LEE:

I cannot definitively say that is definite a shoeprint; it could be.

71 MR. SCHECK:

Now, let's--is there anything else we should note about this area before turning to imprint no. 3?

72 DR. LEE:

No.

73 MR. SCHECK:

Now, I would ask you to turn to imprint area no. 3.

74 DR. LEE:

Imprint pattern no. 3. Here appear to have a pattern. Again looks like a block, a group of blocks, but very difficult to say whether or not this is a shoeprint or not. Just like any other imprint pattern, I know this is an imprint pattern. At this point in time I examine the blue jean flat, a two-dimensional examination, which not really represent three-dimensional setting. Very difficult for any scientist to go back, mentally reconstruct that blue jean in a three-dimensional setting. All I'm coming here today to report to you, they are imprint evidence on the blue jean. There are other imprint evidence in this location, (Indicating), appear to be--have some parallel line.

75 MR. SCHECK:

Marking those "PLP"?

76 DR. LEE:

(Witness complies.) And this group of parallel lines appear to be applied on top of each other, a multiple applications, (Indicating). How that happened, the simple explanation--

77 MR. GOLDBERG:

No question pending, your Honor.

78 THE COURT:

Sustained. Ask another question.

79 MR. SCHECK:

All right.

80 MR. SCHECK:

So you are indicating here that this parallel line pattern on imprint no. 3, that there are a series of them on top of each other?

81 DR. LEE:

It appears to be.

82 MR. SCHECK:

All right. Can you--what mechanism--well, let me ask this: Is this consistent with multiple contacts from whatever it is that is making the parallel line pattern impression, a parallel line imprint?

83 DR. LEE:

An imprint is created by an object with a certain design. It is sort of like a replicate. If this is a stamp, if I step on it, you are going to call an imprint, yet a multiple imprint on top of each other which could suggest have a multiple contact.

84 MR. SCHECK:

If the mechanism that caused this imprint was a shoe, is this consistent with partial shoe impressions kicking multiple times in that area?

85 DR. LEE:

If it is a shoe, which suggest it could be a multiple contact by the same type of a design, parallel design.

86 MR. SCHECK:

If this were--if this parallel line imprint comes from a shoe, could it be the Bruno Magli shoe?

87 DR. LEE:

No.

88 MR. SCHECK:

It would be some other shoe?

89 DR. LEE:

If this is a shoeprint, this is a different type of design than Bruno Magli.

KEY QUOTE
90 MR. SCHECK:

Now, these are partial imprint patterns?

91 DR. LEE:

Yes, sir.

92 MR. SCHECK:

Are they all consistent with being in blood?

93 DR. LEE:

Yes, sir.

94 MR. SCHECK:

Are they against the grain of the fabric?

95 DR. LEE:

Yes.

96 MR. SCHECK:

Do these parallel line imprint patterns, they are not caused by folding of the fabric?

97 DR. LEE:

No.

98 MR. SCHECK:

In other words, the accordion effect comes from the folding of the fabric but these parallel line imprints do not?

99 DR. LEE:

Does not.

100 MR. SCHECK:

The ones you've located you have indicated are on the right leg?

101 DR. LEE:

Right.

102 MR. SCHECK:

All right. Now, as I understand your testimony, the left leg in the area that is covered more with blood, one cannot see such patterns?

103 DR. LEE:

I cannot tell any pattern, just cover saturated with blood. I don't see anybody can come here, say they can see pattern through the blood.

104 MR. SCHECK:

Are these parallel line imprint patterns that you've identified for us, they are on different locations and come from different directions?

105 DR. LEE:

Yes, sir.

106 MR. SCHECK:

Your Honor, may I request at this time--could we put in--

107 MR. SCHECK:

Could you please identify where imprint pattern no. 3 is?

108 DR. LEE:

In this area, (Indicating).

109 MR. SCHECK:

Your Honor, since this board is such that I think one requires study, may I request that the jury be allowed to come up and look at each of these markings now?

110 THE COURT:

All right. Let me have counsel take a seat. All right. Deputy Jex, I think we need to open the door here, side door. All right. And we will start with 1386 as soon as Deputy Jex will come down around.

111 (Brief pause.)
112 THE COURT:

All right. You can come down.

113 (The jurors view the exhibit.)
114 THE COURT:

All right. Let the record reflect that every one of our jury members has had the opportunity to carefully examine Defense exhibit 1339. Mr. Scheck.

115 MR. SCHECK:

Thank you very much, your Honor. Dr. Lee, I would like to go back for a moment to what I believe is 1337.

116 (Brief pause.)
117 MR. SCHECK:

Your Honor, this is the first board entitled "Imprint evidence at Bundy."

118 (Brief pause.)
119 MR. SCHECK:

Now, first of all, Dr. Lee, I think that trying to complete yesterday's testimony we neglected to draw circles around the imprints that you described yesterday on the piece of paper and the envelope, the piece of paper being marked 1338-A, and the envelope being marked 1338-B. Could you please do so.

120 (Witness complies.)
121 MR. SCHECK:

And maybe could we mark that--would it be accurate to mark that as "PLP," parallel line pattern?

122 (Witness complies.)
123 THE COURT:

All right. Dr. Lee has placed a blue semicircle on 1338.

124 MR. HARRIS:

A.

125 THE COURT:

A.

126 MR. SCHECK:

Ask you to do the same thing with respect to 1338-B.

127 (Witness complies.)
128 THE COURT:

All right. And the witness has complied.

129 MR. SCHECK:

Now, Dr. Lee, with respect to both 1338-A and 1338-B, and I would ask--first 1338-A, is this parallel line imprint pattern consistent with having been made in blue?

130 DR. LEE:

Yes.

131 MR. SCHECK:

So that means whatever caused this imprint had blood on it or stepped on blood? How does that work.

132 MR. GOLDBERG:

Speculation, your Honor.

133 THE COURT:

Overruled.

134 DR. LEE:

The parallel line, as I explained a minute ago, represent an object. An object have certain structure, pattern. This just a replicate when this object surface design have some blood transfer, have a physical contact, a direct contact with this portion of the paper, (Indicating), a stationary contact. If a movement, we are going to see smear, a contact. Cause this transfer. However, subsequently some other bloodstain got on top of this, so covers a portion of this pattern; therefore, difficult to see it.

135 MR. SCHECK:

Your Honor, I would just like to take 1338-A and I will walk from the right of the jury box to the left to slowly display that, with the court's permission.

136 THE COURT:

Proceed.

137 (The exhibit was displayed to the jury.)
138 THE COURT:

Mr. Douglas, would you give Dr. Lee our short pointer there since it is a little more visible.

139 DR. LEE:

Thank you.

140 THE COURT:

Sure.

141 (Brief pause.)
142 THE COURT:

All right. Thank you, Mr. Scheck.

143 MR. SCHECK:

And may I do the same thing briefly with 1338-B?

144 THE COURT:

Yes, you may.

145 (The exhibit was displayed to the jury.)
146 MR. SCHECK:

Now, yesterday you drew circles around patterns on 1337-A and 1337-B?

147 DR. LEE:

Yes, sir.

148 MR. SCHECK:

Perhaps for consistency sake first on 1337-B, would it be accurate to mark this one as a PLP as well?

149 DR. LEE:

Yes. (Witness complies.)

150 MR. SCHECK:

And 1337-A, would it be accurate to mark that as PLP, and would you say that that is in fact a shoeprint?

151 DR. LEE:

Yes, sir.

152 MR. SCHECK:

So let's mark that "PLP" and then underneath it write "Shoeprint."

153 (Witness complies.)
154 MR. SCHECK:

Now, with respect to 1337-A and 1337-B, are the parallel line patterns here consistent with having been made in blood?

155 DR. LEE:

Yes.

156 MR. SCHECK:

All right. Your Honor, may I again slowly display these?

157 THE COURT:

Although I seem to recollect we did that yesterday with those, but go ahead.

158 MR. SCHECK:

We just held them up but I don't think we--

159 THE COURT:

Go ahead.

160 (The exhibit was displayed to the jury.)
161 MR. SCHECK:

Dr. Lee, could--on 1337 there are--there is a diagram of the Bundy area and some dots on it. Could you draw lines between these pictures indicating where all of them are located with respect to those dots?

162 DR. LEE:

Yes. The extremely left corner one is located on no. 10 tile. The middle one located between fifth and sixth tile. The envelope is approximately in this location, (Indicating). The piece of paper that is on the lower level walkway, (Indicating). The blue jean located approximately this location, (Indicating). This the limit pattern here, (Indicating), is somewhere long the walkway.

163 MR. SCHECK:

And incidentally, Dr. Lee, with respect to the parallel line imprint pattern that you identified for us on this June 12/june 13 walkway photograph, in theory is it possible that that imprint pattern could arise from an imperfection in the tile?

164 DR. LEE:

It could be, because I only look at a picture. I myself did not have an opportunity to go there, identify the tile. It could be anything. What--I don't want to misled people, and ladies and gentlemen, say that is a shoeprint. By no means I did not say that is a shoeprint; just a partial imprint with some parallel line.

165 MR. SCHECK:

You say that--so with respect to I guess all the imprint patterns other than what I think we've marked as the lower right-hand photograph on 1337 and a larger photograph that we've called 1337-A, you cannot definitively call these parallel line imprint patterns, with that exception, a shoeprint; is that correct?

166 DR. LEE:

That's correct.

167 MR. SCHECK:

However, are these parallel line imprint patterns consistent with coming from the Bruno Magli?

168 DR. LEE:

No.

169 MR. SCHECK:

Mr. Goldman's boot?

170 DR. LEE:

No.

171 MR. SCHECK:

Could they come from Mr. Goldman's jeans?

172 DR. LEE:

No.

173 MR. SCHECK:

Could they come from Mr. Goldman's shirt?

174 DR. LEE:

Inconsistent with it.

175 MR. SCHECK:

All right. Could it come from a lip print?

176 DR. LEE:

No. That is not a lip print.

177 MR. SCHECK:

An ear print?

178 DR. LEE:

Your ear, no.

179 MR. SCHECK:

All right. I'm loathe to say it, nose print?

180 MR. GOLDBERG:

Argumentative.

181 THE COURT:

Overruled.

182 DR. LEE:

No, not be--this is inconsistent with a nose print either.

183 MR. SCHECK:

However, these parallel line imprint patterns are consistent with having come from a shoe?

184 DR. LEE:

Could have.

185 MR. SCHECK:

Now, Dr. Lee, if we assume that these parallel line imprint patterns come from a shoe, I think you've told us they are not consistent with the Bruno Magli or Mr. Goldman's shoe, correct?

186 DR. LEE:

Yes.

187 MR. SCHECK:

Would that mean that it--assuming it is a shoeprint, it came from another person?

188 MR. GOLDBERG:

Calls for speculation, your Honor, improper hypothetical.

189 THE COURT:

Sustained.

190 MR. SCHECK:

Dr. Lee, in your experience at crime scenes have you ever seen a single assailant wear two pairs of shoes?

KEY QUOTE
191 MR. GOLDBERG:

Argumentative, your Honor.

192 THE COURT:

Overruled.

193 DR. LEE:

No.

194 (Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)
195 MR. SCHECK:

I think we are finished with these boards now.

196 THE COURT:

All right. Mr. Harris. Let me ask counsel to have a seat, please.

197 (Brief pause.)
198 MR. SCHECK:

Now, Dr. Lee, you were discussing with us, in the course of your description of the imprint pattern evidence, different kinds of bloodstain patterns; is that correct?

199 DR. LEE:

I'm confused by question. Can you--

200 MR. SCHECK:

Sure.

201 DR. LEE:

--rephrase that, please?

202 MR. SCHECK:

There is a discipline of analysis known as bloodstain spatter or splatter interpretation?

203 DR. LEE:

Bloodstain pattern analysis, yes.

204 MR. SCHECK:

All right. And you were making reference in your testimony so far to certain kind of bloodstain patterns?

205 DR. LEE:

Yes, sir.

206 MR. SCHECK:

All right. And are there different kind of patterns that an expert in this area can identify?

207 DR. LEE:

You mean bloodstain pattern?

208 MR. SCHECK:

That's correct.

209 DR. LEE:

Yes.

210 MR. SCHECK:

All right. Is there a way that you can demonstrate for us, by the use of paper and ink, the different kind of bloodstain patterns that you've already discussed, and you would discuss in our examination of further evidence in this case?

211 DR. LEE:

Yes.

212 MR. SCHECK:

Your Honor, at this time I would ask permission to, with a bottle of red ink and paper, have Dr. Lee demonstrate different kind of bloodstain patterns.

213 MR. GOLDBERG:

It is not relevant, your Honor.

214 THE COURT:

Overruled. Overruled.

215 (Brief pause.)
216 MR. SCHECK:

What I would suggest, your Honor, is that we have some paper--may I consult with Dr. Lee as to which is the best one--some red ink, and what I would suggest is that--ask that Dr. Lee be given permission to take the ink, the paper, and using this--

217 THE COURT:

All right. We need to have Dr. Lee examine the papers to see which ones he feels is appropriate first.

218 MR. SCHECK:

Right.

219 (Brief pause.)
220 THE COURT:

Mr. Scheck. And Dr. Lee, you can step down, but if you would, because you will have your back to the court reporter, if you could keep your voice up, please.

221 DR. LEE:

Yes, sir.

222 THE COURT:

All right. Thank you. All right. It appears that Dr. Lee has a stack of what appears to be white cotton fiber paper and various inks.

223 MR. SCHECK:

What kind of paper is this, Dr. Lee, just for the record?

224 DR. LEE:

25 percent cotton.

225 MR. SCHECK:

Dr. Lee, with the use of the red ink and the paper can you demonstrate for us bloodstain patterns?

226 DR. LEE:

Yes. Blood circulating in our body system in a constant speed depends on capillary, vein or artery. With a different speed, artery circulating faster than the vein and the vein circulating faster than the capillary. This circulation system--

227 MR. GOLDBERG:

At this time I would object that Dr. Lee's answer is narrative and it is also nonresponsive.

228 THE COURT:

It is nonresponsive to the question. Do you want to have him explain the blood system and how it impacts blood patterns?

229 MR. SCHECK:

Yes.

230 MR. SCHECK:

As a predicate for explaining bloodstain patterns, could you explain for us briefing something about the circulatory system as it relates to how blood comes out of the body?

231 DR. LEE:

Yes, sir. In this closed circulation system carry the oxygen nutrient through the body and that is why we can function. Once this system interrupt, the blood will come up. Depends which part of the body. If an artery, the blood will gush out, so-called arterial spurting, arterial gushing. If a vein was cut, the blood will rush out. If just a capillary cut, the blood dripping out. Once it has come out of our body, we cannot take back any more, we cannot control any more. The environment and the physics takes over. It is no longer--can be controlled by an individual. Once the blood come out, would deposit to a surface. The surface usually is the lowest surface, whatever lowest surface. For example, here, that is--if I dripping the blood or ink onto this surface, that is the lowest surface. If I drip here, (Indicating), the carpet going to be lowest surface. It stop on the surface according to the physics, the gravity.

232 MR. SCHECK:

Could you demonstrate for the jury, for example, you mentioned a drop, what is known as a low velocity drop?

233 DR. LEE:

Yes. If the blood come out without any force, just dripping, going to form certain patterns. This pattern, (Indicating), generally we consider a low velocity blood drop.

234 MR. SCHECK:

All right. The record should reflect that Dr. Lee has taken a bottle of--out of a bottle of red ink a dropper.

235 THE COURT:

Eyedropper.

236 MR. SCHECK:

I'm sorry, an eyedropper, and dropped it directly down onto a piece of paper.

237 MR. SCHECK:

And how would you like to label this one, Dr. Lee? Maybe we should use a--

238 THE COURT:

Low velocity drops?

239 DR. LEE:

Yes, sir, just low velocity.

240 THE COURT:

All right.

241 DR. LEE:

You just create some blood smear.

242 MR. SCHECK:

I smeared the paper and I created blood smear on one piece of paper.

243 (Brief pause.)
244 THE COURT:

Dr. Lee, is this actually ink that you are using?

245 DR. LEE:

Ink, actually ink.

246 THE COURT:

Thank you.

247 DR. LEE:

Regular writing ink. Maybe I should put some paper underneath here.

248 (Brief pause.)
249 MR. SCHECK:

Now, on this low velocity drop, the way you did it, it was vertical?

250 DR. LEE:

It is directly perpendicular to the surface, ninety-degree drop.

251 MR. SCHECK:

Now, if one were to measure the diameter of those drops, could this be correlated with the source of it to the target?

252 DR. LEE:

In general we can do an estimation. We have to know the substrata. Is this paper, carpet, pavement or wood? Each substrata surface will have different effect. You cannot use the paper to compare a carpet or use the carpet to compare the pavement; therefore, you have to know the drop size, how big a drop, and have to know the substrata. Sometime we can make some correlation. We cannot make, say, an exact determination how high.

253 MR. SCHECK:

But can one make a reasonable approximation, in certain instances, by measuring the diameter of a vertical drop such as this with respect to where the source was?

254 DR. LEE:

If we know every parameters, then we can make a reasonable interpretation.

255 MR. SCHECK:

Is it therefore important, when documenting, preserving evidence at a crime scene, to make an effort to document the size of drops?

256 DR. LEE:

Yes. We generally conduct such documentation.

257 MR. SCHECK:

And the photographs taken in this case of the bloodstain evidence at the Bundy and Rockingham scenes, did they contain rulers in them so that such measurements could be made?

258 DR. LEE:

I did not have opportunity to see every photograph. I cannot tell you. The photograph what I examined I did not see rulers.

259 MR. SCHECK:

Uh-huh. Now, on these--

260 MR. GOLDBERG:

Motion to strike, your Honor.

261 THE COURT:

Overruled.

262 MR. SCHECK:

Now, with respect to this low velocity drop, are there something known as jagged edges and satellite spatter?

263 DR. LEE:

Yes. If you look the periphery area, you see this jagged edge and small spatter around this main group. Those called satellite pattern.

264 MR. SCHECK:

Now, is there something known as angular deposits at low velocity?

265 DR. LEE:

Well, before we go--

266 MR. SCHECK:

Before we discuss angular deposits, is there another point you think should be made?

267 DR. LEE:

Yes.

268 MR. GOLDBERG:

Well, that calls for a narrative.

269 THE COURT:

Overruled. Ask a question.

270 DR. LEE:

Counsel just asking me--

271 THE COURT:

Wait, wait, wait. Ask a question, Mr. Scheck.

272 MR. SCHECK:

All right.

273 MR. SCHECK:

Dr. Lee, could you please continue your description of--

274 THE COURT:

That is not a question.

275 MR. SCHECK:

All right. That is a direct--

276 MR. SCHECK:

Before we discussed the issue of angular deposits, is there a principle that we should appreciate?

277 DR. LEE:

Yes.

278 MR. SCHECK:

What is that?

279 DR. LEE:

This diameter sometime give us some information, how big a drop, what the possible estimation of distance by correlation of a known casting. Such as let's say assume everything equal. We use the paper. If I let the drop on--at about three inches, second 16 inches, keep increase the distance, you see the diameter varies. When I increase the distance, but to a limit, doesn't matter how I increase the distance, will not increase the diameter that reach the terminal velocity.

280 MR. SCHECK:

So this piece--

281 DR. LEE:

Otherwise--

282 MR. SCHECK:

Excuse me.

283 DR. LEE:

--if I climb up a tall building, such as empire state building, drop a drop of ink, it will cover the whole manhattan, because this relationship. It is not. It is not going to happen this way, only to a certain distance. That is why this correlation--you just changed the pattern.

284 MR. SCHECK:

I understand. Let the record reflect first that Dr. Lee took the eyedropper and dropped a series of drops, as he indicated, at different heights on this piece of paper and causing circles of different size, as he went upwards, increasingly larger, and when I took the paper to move it and show it to the other jurors, I turned it a little and it caused some of those drops to move, but--

285 THE COURT:

If you asked for my permission I would have encouraged you to wait until it dried a little.

286 MR. SCHECK:

Thank you, your Honor. And I should have done that and you are right.

287 MR. SCHECK:

Dr. Lee, how would we mark this piece of paper?

288 DR. LEE:

Drop size.

289 MR. SCHECK:

Drop size?

290 DR. LEE:

Low velocity.

291 MR. SCHECK:

Drop size, low velocity?

292 DR. LEE:

Yes.

293 MR. SCHECK:

Are we now ready to discuss angular deposits?

294 DR. LEE:

Yes.

295 MR. SCHECK:

Could you please describe for us what an angular deposit is, low velocity.

296 DR. LEE:

What so far we talking about, the receiving surface, is flat, horizontal, but in a three-dimensional setting, a room or scene, you have vertical surface, for example, the wall. You have climbing surface at an angle. A drop of blood deposit on a vertical surface, a wall or in climbing surface, will have a different pattern than what I have--just have a minute ago demonstrated. Those called angular deposit. If the source of this liquid almost parallel to the receiving surface, when I drop, it form a specific pattern. If I vary this surface angle a little bit, it change the shape. Finally become ninety degree receiving surface, it will become a circular pattern.

297 THE COURT:

Any juror in the back row who thinks they need to stand up to view any of these things, feel free to do so. All right. 165, can you see that?

298 JUROR NO. 165:

Yes, sir.

299 THE COURT:

All right. Thank you.

300 MR. SCHECK:

How shall we label this one?

301 DR. LEE:

Angular deposit.

302 MR. SCHECK:

Low velocity?

303 DR. LEE:

Yes.

304 MR. SCHECK:

Your Honor, when we finish with these, we will put numbers on all of them.

305 THE COURT:

Mr. Scheck, 10:30.

306 MR. SCHECK:

I'm sorry?

307 THE COURT:

10:30.

308 MR. SCHECK:

10:30.

309 MR. SCHECK:

So would it be fair to say that the impact angle can be determined to some extent by the width and length of the bloodstain pattern?

310 DR. LEE:

Yes.

311 MR. SCHECK:

If one were to measure the width and length of the bloodstain pattern--

312 DR. LEE:

Yes.

313 MR. SCHECK:

--can that give useful information to do a reconstruction as to the source?

314 DR. LEE:

Yes. We can determine the possible angle of deposit.

315 MR. SCHECK:

And is that something that ought to be done when properly processing a crime scene?

316 DR. LEE:

I usually--if a blood pattern become crucial, we document that.

317 MR. SCHECK:

Now, is there something known as medium velocity?

318 DR. LEE:

Yes.

319 MR. SCHECK:

All right. And could you describe that for us?

320 DR. LEE:

A medium velocity involving certain force. It could be an internal force, the blood pressure, or an external force, for example, a person swinging a hand, swinging a bat or a weapon. Those encompass a large group of bloodstain pattern we call medium velocity bloodstain pattern.

321 MR. SCHECK:

And can one determine direction or position from this?

322 DR. LEE:

Sometime, yes, we can go back, reconstruct the possible direction of impact, can project back, say, the possible source, the location of the blood source.

323 MR. SCHECK:

Can you demonstrate for us, for example--what is impact spatter?

324 (No audible response.)
325 MR. SCHECK:

Well, first let's move--can you demonstrate for us medium velocity--

326 DR. LEE:

Yes.

327 MR. SCHECK:

--drops.

328 DR. LEE:

A medium velocity, I indicate quite a few different type. The simplest type we usually see at the scene, that is a medium velocity pattern. A medium velocity pattern give you a direction. It usually consist several, a trail. When this force increase, the spot getting smaller, (Indicating). Now, this also consistent with a medium velocity cast-off pattern. Sometime we can look at how many trails at the scene, determine how many blow or possibly weapon was lift up and down by looking at ceiling, looking at wall.

329 MR. GOLDBERG:

At this time it is narrative, your Honor.

330 THE COURT:

Ask another question.

331 MR. SCHECK:

Perhaps we could take this first piece of paper and we will mark it medium velocity 1, and the second medium velocity 2. And would it be fair to say that increased velocity, smaller--

332 DR. LEE:

Yes.

333 MR. SCHECK:

--pattern?

334 DR. LEE:

Yes.

335 THE COURT:

All right. Mr. Scheck, I'm going to direct that we mark all of these blood spatter or drop demonstration papers as Defense exhibit 1340-A through whatever. And what I would like for you to do at the conclusion of the court day, present to Mrs. Robertson a key, 1340-A through B and then the key as to what it is.

336 MR. SCHECK:

Yes.

337 THE COURT:

For the record, with a copy to the Prosecution.

338 (Deft's 1340 for id = blood spatter patterns)
339 MR. SCHECK:

Is there any other pattern, with respect to medium velocity, that you think we should demonstrate to understand bloodstain patterns?

340 DR. LEE:

Impact spatter.

341 MR. SCHECK:

What is some impact?

342 DR. LEE:

Impact spatter have some force on the surface. A force direct apply to the surface can cause a splash pattern or project a pattern and all those pattern are considered medium velocity spatter pattern.

343 MR. SCHECK:

Uh-huh. Can you demonstrate one for us?

344 THE COURT:

You are making juror 63 awfully nervous?

345 DR. LEE:

That is why I feel very reluctant to do that. You have to hold it. Can you see it? Maybe like this, (Indicating).

346 THE COURT:

Mr. Goldberg, if you want to stand up and move away, you are welcome to do so.

347 MR. SCHECK:

I'm the one that is going to pay for this suit.

348 DR. LEE:

If, say, a couple drop of blood on the surface, if a force apply to this surface, you going to have certain so-called medium velocity pattern. May I have some tissue?

349 MR. SCHECK:

Yeah, I've got them right here.

350 DR. LEE:

You just ruined the pattern.

351 MR. SCHECK:

I know. I'm sorry.

352 DR. LEE:

That is a medium velocity pattern. It is a projected pattern.

353 MR. SCHECK:

I'm going to write on this exhibit.

354 THE COURT:

Is that still a viable pattern, given Dr. Lee's comment?

355 MR. SCHECK:

Let me ask him.

356 MR. SCHECK:

Dr. Lee, would you examine that. Is that--

357 DR. LEE:

In general still.

358 MR. SCHECK:

Okay. Actually medium velocity impact pattern?

359 DR. LEE:

Project.

360 MR. SCHECK:

Medium velocity and what do you want to say?

361 DR. LEE:

Projected pattern.

362 MR. SCHECK:

Projected pattern?

363 THE COURT:

Mr. Scheck, are we going to go much further in this demonstration?

364 DR. LEE:

I should be finished soon.

365 MR. SCHECK:

I think we will finish at exactly the break.

366 THE COURT:

No. Have you ever been to a Gallagher show?

367 MR. SCHECK:

I have. Doesn't he use more props?

368 THE COURT:

We are getting close.

369 MR. SCHECK:

Okay.

370 THE COURT:

I'm just concerned about the proximity.

371 MR. SCHECK:

Yes.

372 DR. LEE:

This is a medium velocity impact.

373 MR. SCHECK:

This one as well?

374 DR. LEE:

This have some medium velocity also imprint.

375 MR. SCHECK:

Okay.

376 MR. GOLDBERG:

Your Honor, at this time I'm going to object to any further demonstrations as being irrelevant.

377 THE COURT:

Overruled.

378 MR. SCHECK:

Now, you've handed me this piece of paper you put your fingers on, after you slammed the table?

379 DR. LEE:

Yes.

380 MR. SCHECK:

Could you please--and you are characterizing this as a medium velocity pattern and imprint. Could you please explain that to the jury?

381 DR. LEE:

Those are direct contact imprint; however, on the paper some small spatter also deposit on this piece of paper so here, (Indicating), you have a combination of two patterns. An experienced examiner can look at this pattern, determine the sequence, which one applied first, the imprint or a spatter.

382 MR. SCHECK:

So we'll label this combination imprint spatter?

383 DR. LEE:

Right.

384 MR. SCHECK:

Now, would it be fair to say that--what is a compression?

385 DR. LEE:

A compression, which I just demonstrate, have some blood-like material directly contact the surface with the energy of force result lateral movement. That is a compression.

386 MR. SCHECK:

All right. Is the paper up there a compression?

387 DR. LEE:

Yes. If this compression with a movement, now become a smear. This is a compression, this is a smear, (Indicating). Both have to have surface contact.

388 MR. SCHECK:

I'm going to label the pattern that--as compression and the other one as smear.

389 MR. SCHECK:

Is that accurate?

390 DR. LEE:

Yes.

391 MR. SCHECK:

Now, is there something known as a mirror image?

392 DR. LEE:

Yes.

393 MR. SCHECK:

Could you please demonstrate what that is.

394 DR. LEE:

If you have one surface have some wet blood, the next surface have a contact, you have a mirror image. If this surface against another surface, now we have a wet transfer.

395 MR. SCHECK:

Let's mark--the paper that I have marked mirror image. The record should reflect is the paper that Dr. Lee dropped blood on and then folded creating the mirror image.

396 MR. SCHECK:

And then the piece of paper where he then took the mirror image pattern and placed it on another piece of paper, that one should be called wet transfer?

397 DR. LEE:

Wet transfer.

398 THE COURT:

Thank you.

399 MR. SCHECK:

Dr. Lee, what is a wipe and what is a swipe?

400 DR. LEE:

If a surface have some liquid, blood, ketchup or anything, if a person use a kitchen towel or a person's clothes contact and wipe it, that is called wipe. Now, this surface have some transfer, if touch a clean surface, now this become a swipe. Wipe and swipe, (Indicating). Both are transfer pattern, but different, which experienced examiner can tell at the scene which one is which.

401 MR. SCHECK:

All right. Let's mark--

402 DR. LEE:

Whip and swipe. Wipe.

403 MR. SCHECK:

The wipe is when the blood is there?

404 DR. LEE:

A surface touch that, brushed over, and that is called wipe.

405 MR. SCHECK:

And the swipe?

406 DR. LEE:

Swipe is another surface. For example, my clothing have some blood, touch a clean surface and that is a swipe.

407 MR. SCHECK:

Could you describe for us what are known as contact patterns?

408 DR. LEE:

Which we already indicate a contact pattern can be any surface with some amount of liquid; finger, shoes, ear, nose, body, touch a surface and cause a direct transfer, that is called a contact pattern. If this bottle touch surface, leave a pattern, that is a contact transfer pattern.

409 MR. SCHECK:

Would you call that a stationary contact?

410 DR. LEE:

Yes.

411 MR. SCHECK:

So how would you suggest we label this?

412 DR. LEE:

Stationary contact.

413 MR. SCHECK:

Stationary contact. Is there such a thing as dynamic contact?

414 DR. LEE:

A dynamic contact is with a movement. Contact with a movement. Now, you have a pattern with a movement pattern. This movement can cause the deposit surface, the receiving surface can be both moved or one surface moved and then we can tell the direction of this movement.

415 MR. SCHECK:

Label this?

416 DR. LEE:

Dynamic--

417 MR. SCHECK:

Dynamic contact?

418 DR. LEE:

With movement.

419 MR. SCHECK:

Dr. Lee, are there any other bloodstain patterns that we should--you believe we should demonstrate to understand your testimony about--that we are going to be discussing about bloodstain evidence at the crime scenes?

420 DR. LEE:

There are many other patterns; however, some pattern not totally relevant, such as high velocity blood spatter pattern, that is due to gunshot wound. Some pattern which difficult to demonstrate; arterial spurt, arterial gushing, which I really don't want to do here.

421 MR. SCHECK:

Don't want to do here?

422 DR. LEE:

Reluctant to do here.

423 MR. SCHECK:

Your Honor, I think this would be--

424 THE COURT:

All right. Ladies and gentlemen, we are going to take our mid-morning recess. Remember all my admonitions to you. We will stand in recess for fifteen. Dr. Lee, you can step down.

425 (Recess.)

Temperature

procedural

Key Quotes (5)

Dr. Henry Lee
If this is a shoeprint, this is a different type of design than Bruno Magli.
Core defense argument: a shoeprint at the crime scene does not match OJ Simpson's shoes, implying another person was present.
Dr. Henry Lee
I don't see anybody can come here, say they can see pattern through the blood.
Undercuts the prosecution's ability to claim definitive interpretation of the heavily saturated left leg of Goldman's jeans.
Dr. Henry Lee
You are the lawyer; I'm a scientist.
Light moment establishing Lee's persona and pushing back on Scheck's attempts to label evidence — became a memorable exchange.
Barry Scheck
Dr. Lee, in your experience at crime scenes have you ever seen a single assailant wear two pairs of shoes?
Rhetorical question designed to lead the jury to conclude the unidentified shoeprint belongs to a second person at the scene.
Lance A. Ito
Have you ever been to a Gallagher show? We are getting close.
Judge's humorous warning as Dr. Lee's ink demonstration threatened to spray the courtroom, lightening the mood.

Evidence (9)

Defense 1339
Posterboard with photographs of Ron Goldman's Levi jeans showing bloodstain and imprint patterns, divided into four photos: overview and Imprints 1, 2, and 3
introduced, marked, displayed to jury, annotated by Dr. Lee with plastic overlays
Defense 1337
Board entitled 'Imprint Evidence at Bundy' including diagram of walkway tiles with photographs of shoeprint/imprint evidence
discussed, annotated with PLP labels and 'Shoeprint' designation on 1337-A
Defense 1337-A
Photograph of walkway tile imprint definitively labeled as a shoeprint by Dr. Lee
annotated, displayed to jury
Defense 1337-B
Second walkway imprint photograph labeled as parallel line pattern
annotated, displayed to jury
Defense 1338-A
Piece of paper found at Bundy showing parallel line imprint pattern in blood
annotated, displayed to jury by Scheck walking the jury box
Defense 1338-B
Envelope found at Bundy showing parallel line imprint pattern in blood
annotated, displayed to jury
+ 3 more

Notable Exchanges (4)

Barry ScheckDr. Henry Lee
Scheck asks whether the parallel line imprints could be a Bruno Magli shoeprint; Lee says no. Scheck then asks about Goldman's boot, Goldman's jeans, Goldman's shirt, a lip print, an ear print, and a nose print — each excluded — before establishing the PLPs are consistent with 'a shoe,' just not OJ's shoe.
strategic
Barry ScheckHank GoldbergLance A. Ito
Scheck asks whether a single assailant ever wears two pairs of shoes; Goldberg objects as argumentative; Ito overrules; Lee answers 'No.' The rhetorical structure forces the jury to draw the second-person inference without Lee saying it directly.
strategic
Dr. Henry LeeBarry Scheck
During the bloodstain demonstration, Scheck accidentally smeared a fresh ink drop pattern by tilting the paper. Lee: 'You just ruined the pattern.' Scheck: 'I know. I'm sorry.' Ito noted he would have encouraged waiting for the ink to dry.
light
Dr. Henry LeeBarry Scheck
On labeling ambiguous imprint evidence: Scheck asks 'How would you like to label that?' Lee responds 'You are the attorney. Tell me—' then when pressed says 'Imprint with a question mark.' Later repeats 'You are the lawyer; I'm a scientist' when Scheck defers label decisions to him.
light

Light Moments (5)

Lance A. Ito
Ito asks 'Have you ever been to a Gallagher show? We are getting close.' as Dr. Lee's ink-slamming demonstration threatened to spray the courtroom, comparing Lee to the prop-comedy watermelon-smashing comedian.
Barry Scheck
Scheck says 'I'm the one that is going to pay for this suit' as Dr. Lee prepares to slam ink-soaked paper near him.
Barry Scheck
Scheck asks if the imprint could be a lip print, then an ear print, then 'I'm loathe to say it, nose print?' Goldberg objects as argumentative; overruled; Lee methodically excludes each.
Lance A. Ito
Ito checks in on a juror in the back row: 'Juror 165, can you see that?' — juror confirms yes.
Lance A. Ito
Goldberg is warned by Ito he is 'welcome to stand up and move away' as Dr. Lee prepares the impact spatter demonstration.

Witness Demeanor

(Witness steps down from stand to demonstrate at boards — repeated throughout)
(Witness complies.) — used approximately 15 times as Dr. Lee annotates exhibits on command
(Brief pause.) — multiple instances during board transitions and ink demonstration setup
(The jurors view the exhibit.) — jury walks up to examine Defense 1339
(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)
(Recess.)

Objections

11 objections (3 sustained, 7 overruled)
Proceeding 7416 • 425 utterances • Defense witness
Criminal Trial
Department 103
⚖️ Start
📂 AUG 23, 1995 📄 Direct examination of Dr. Henr
AUG 23, 1995 KRT DvH TD