Your Honor, the Defense calls Larry Ragle.

All right. Mr. Ragle.

John Larry Ragle, called as a witness by the Defendant, was sworn and testified as follows:

Please raise your right hand. You do solemnly swear that the testimony you may give in the cause now pending before this court, shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God.

I do.

Please have a seat on the witness stand and state and spell your first and last names for the record.

My name is John Larry Ragle. It is J-O-H-N, Larry, L-A-R-R-Y, Ragle, R-A-G-L-E.

Thank you.

Mr. Blasier.

Ladies and gentlemen, good morning.

THE JURY: Good morning.

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. BLASIER

Mr. Ragle, you are here to testify as an expert in crime scene processing techniques, are you not?

That's correct.

Now, could you give us a brief description of your undergraduate training, educational background.

I attended the University of California at Berkeley and I received a bachelor's of science degree in criminalistics, which is now called forensic science, at Berkeley, in 1959.

And do you have any specific training as a police officer?

Yes.

And what does that training consist of?

I'm a graduate of the California peace Officer's Association academy.

And what year did you graduate from the academy?

1957.

Now, could you describe your employment between 1956 and 1960.

In 1956 I became a member of the Berkeley Police Department. I was a patrol--patrolman and an investigator until 1960.

And in 1960 where did you go?

In 1960 I became an employee of the Orange County Sheriff's Department here in California.

And in your capacity with the Orange County Sheriff's Department from--now, that was from 1960 to what year?

1989.

And from 1960 to 1976 did you have a particular area that you worked in?

Yes.

What was that?

My assignment was as a general criminalist.

And what was the nature of your responsibilities as a general criminalist?

As a generalist I investigated all types of crimes, either at the crime scene or analyzing evidence in court and testifying to my findings in court.

During that period of time did you conduct any investigation into homicides?

Yes.

Any investigations into double homicides?

Yes.

Did you--was your primary responsibility investigating crime scenes themselves?

No.

What was your primary responsibility?

My primary responsibility was analyzing evidence.

That would be after evidence was collected at a crime scene it would be your job to analyze it?

Yes.

Now from 1976 to 1989 what was your position?

In 1976 I was promoted to at that time what was called a chief criminalist and that was the manager of the crime laboratory, the tox--and the toxicology laboratory.

That is basically the person that is in charge of the whole crime lab?

Yes.

And you held that position until what date?

What year?

Technically in 1977 that position was changed and it became--the title became the director of forensic science, so actually I held the position of chief criminalist for one year. In 1977 the crime laboratory and the toxicology laboratory was combined with the identification bureau, which is the--all the crime scene investigators, and the Coroner's office.

Would it be fair to say that your job was similar to Michele Kestler's job in Los Angeles County, your job in Orange County was similar?

You could say that. There was additional responsibilities.

Additional responsibilities that you had?

Yes.

And what did those consist of?

The Coroner's office, for one, was an organization investigates all types of deaths, not just deaths that are suspected crimes, the crime scene identification bureau and the Cal I.D. Bureau, which is the automated fingerprint system, and then the Coroner's toxicology section, and those are not part of the Los Angeles Police Department SID.

Now, in your capacity as the director of the Orange County crime lab, approximately how many people did you supervise?

At any given time?

Well, the lab grew during that period of time and by the time I retired there were between 100 and 110 employees.

And how many of those people were criminalists or toxicologists?

Approximately sixty.

What types of cases would you respond to or your people would respond to from the Orange County crime lab?

In the criminalistics section, which would be the--similar to the Los Angeles Police Department's SID, the types of crime scenes that we responded to would be questioned deaths, drug laboratories, post bomb detonation scenes, arsons.

Now, did you go to crime scenes that were being processed just by the Orange County Sheriff's Department or other police agencies in Orange County?

Both.

Now, the--I think you indicated that the Coroner's office was also under your direction at some point in time. What period of time was that?

From 1977 until 1986 or `85, right in that time range, nine years.

Now, at the time that you retired from the Orange County crime lab, is it accurate to say that that was considered to be one of the best crime labs in the country?

It--it was and I believe it still is.

Can you give me a rough estimate of the total number of crime scenes that--well, let me ask you this about homicides: How many homicides per year are there in Orange County?

The average would be around 150. It can--it has been--starting when I first was an employee of the department, somewhere around fifty to sixty, and by the end of my career there were--homicides were somewhere in the number of 200.

And approximately how many of those homicides would your office be involved in processing the crime scene?

Approximately half.

Now, the other half would be processed by who?

By some of the cities who had--two cities had crime laboratories, small crime laboratories, or by their field evidence technicians.

For all of the homicides handled by the Orange County Sheriff's Department, would it be your responsibility, or the people working for you, to process those scenes?

Yes.

Since your retirement in 1989 what have you been doing?

Primarily I've been acting as a consultant in the management areas of forensic science.

And do you have a company that has a name?

Yes.

What is that?

The center of forensic science.

Now, when you say "Consulting," what sorts of consulting do you do?

The--really falls into a couple different categories. One would be the needs assessment, that is, what type of response should a crime laboratory be able to offer to the criminal justice system, to all levels of the criminal justice system, and then also in the area of laboratory design, space allocations, relative to staffing and case load.

Have you been involved over your career with designing crime labs or redesigning crime labs?

Both.

Can you give us just a couple of examples?

Well, the laboratory in Orange County is the one I'm most familiar with because that laboratory was redesigned on several occasions unsuccessfully. That is, we made a design but nothing ever happened with that design. But ultimately, at the conclusion of my employment, the county agreed to build a new forensic science facility.

And have you worked for other counties as a consultant--

I also wanted to say that I was also involved in the design of what is called the forensic center in Orange County, which is the morgue, and then I have worked for other counties.

What other counties have you worked for?

As a consultant, after I retired, San Diego County and Contra Costa County. Before I retired, Ventura County, Santa Clara County and San Diego County.

And does that involve law enforcement officials from those counties contacting you and retaining you to help them with their crime labs?

Yes.

Now, do you have any teaching experience?

Yes.

Are you currently teaching classes?

Yes, I am.

And what is the subject matter of the classes that you teach now?

The class that I am teaching for the University of California at Los Angeles is a class called crime scene investigation or field evidence technician class.

And just generally what does that encompass?

It encompasses the process of processing a crime scene, the entire scope of processing a crime scene.

And how long have you been teaching either that course or other courses that have the same topic?

That course started in 1968 and it is essentially unchanged in its nature, although there have been technical improvements in crime scene process.

Now, how long does that class take, the way it is now?

The class is a two-week class, a two-week class involving the students being at the classroom eight hours a day.

And what is the--the students that take your class, who are they primarily made up of?

The--right now it is about a 50-50 split. That is, about half of the students are police officers, sworn police officers, and the other half are civilian employees of law enforcement agencies. Occasionally there is a student who would--is seeking employment in some sort of law enforcement agency that takes a class.

Now, did you want to add something about the length of time that your classes take?

Well, I didn't want to imply that I was involved in the class for the entire two weeks. My part of the class is two days of each session.

Now, do you have any FBI agents in your class?

There have been, yes.

Did you--did any--has the FBI been sending people to your class partly as a result of your involvement in this case?

Well, that calls for speculation and irrelevant.

Sustained. Rephrase the question.

Well, during your work on this case for the Defense, have you had contact with FBI agents?

Yes.

And since that--

Not relevant, your Honor.

Sustained.

Approximately how many people have attended your class since it started in 1968?

In the neighborhood of 4000.

Have any people from the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department attended your classes?

Yes.

Do you know how many?

I don't know how many. It would be the total number of the people assigned to their Crime Scene Investigation Bureau.

No.

Have you been an lecturer at any law school?

Yes.

And where is that?

In Orange County.

Have you ever testified as an expert in court?

Yes, I have.

Approximately how many times?

And is that primarily when you were working with the Orange County crime lab?

Exclusively.

During that period of time were you ever--

I was going to say I have testified a few times in Berkeley, but on rare occasion.

But most of your experience testifying has been in your capacity with the Orange County crime lab?

That's correct.

Have you ever been called as a witness by the Defense?

Yes.

Approximately how many times?

Let me limit that to when you were with the Orange County crime lab.

Five or six times.

And was that result of the Defense retaining you or for some other reason?

That was--some other reason.

And what would that be?

Could you describe the professional organizations that you belong to?

I'm a member and the past president of the California Association of Criminalists, CAC. I'm a member emeritus of the California society of crime laboratory directors. I'm a fellow of the American Academy of Forensic Science. And I'm a member emeritus of the American Society of Crime Laboratory Directors.

And have you received any appointments during your career in your area of expertise?

Yes.

What sorts of appointments?

I've been a member of the California Department of Justice DNA advisory committee. This was part of the attorney general study on DNA. I was a member of the California Department of Justice, what they call CCI, which is the criminalist--California Criminalistics Institute, which is a training organization, and that role included recommending types of classes and training that would benefit crime laboratory employees. I was a member of the California Department of Justice's Cal I.D. User committee. The user committee was a group of people like myself who were managers of laboratories that were in the process of installing the California computerized fingerprint identification system called Cal i.d. and I've been a member of the state of California epidemiology study group and I was a member and the chairperson of the FBI committee on what was called forensic science operations and procedures committee, which was a committee that recommended to the FBI training section the types of research and the types of classes that would be most beneficial to law enforcement agencies.

Who appointed you to that FBI committee?

The president of the American Society of Crime Laboratory Directors, or the board, I'm not sure which. I think as a group they make those appointments.

Do you hold any licenses or certificates in your area of expertise?

Technically no longer.

Have you held licenses?

Yes.

And why don't you tell us what those are.

At one time I was licensed as a supervisor of the forensic alcohol analysis, a state license. I also was certified as a generalist in the field of criminalistics by the California Association of Criminalists, and that particular certification is now defunct, it expired after five years--actually, it didn't really expire after five years; it was changed to a different organization and I have to take a new examination this year if I'm going to be certified again.

Is that the organization that provides accreditation to crime labs as well or is that the American association?

It is not the same, no; it is a different--a different board.

Does--do you know whether the California Association of Criminalists still certifies criminalists?

No, they don't.

Who does that now?

The American Board of Criminalistics.

Have you published any articles or made any presentations concerning your field of expertise?

Yes.

Could you describe briefly what some of those publications and presentations are?

Early on I did some presentations on toxicology tests that I had developed in the laboratory on determining amphetamines and amphetamine type compounds in body fluids. I published an article--not an article, but a chapter on forensic science in a textbook that was generally called "Principles of investigation," something like that. I don't remember the exact title. I made presentations at the American Academy of Forensic Sciences on two particular cases that I felt were something that the scientific community should be aware of.

Yes, it did.

Tell us briefly what that was about.

Not relevant.

Sustained.

Do you currently have a book that is in the process of being published?

Yes, I do.

And what is the name of that book?

"Crime scenes."

Is that a textbook or is that a general interest book?

It is a general interest book.

Was that book completed prior to the time that you were hired to work on this case?

Yes, it was.

But it hasn't yet been published?

It has been published. It will be released this year some time.

Now, during your tenure with the Orange County crime lab did you ever have any experiences with outbreaks of contamination?

Yes.

And what--what was the response to the outbreak of contamination that you had experience with?

Well, there is no foundation for qualifications on PCR.

Sustained. Also vague.

Prior to being retained by the Defense in the Simpson case, had you been hired by the Defense in any other criminal cases?

Yes.

And approximately how many?

Two.

Were those large cases like this one or were they relatively minor cases?

Well, they were--I don't know if you could call them relatively minor. My aspect in the case was relatively minor.

Have there been other instances where you have been asked to work on the Defense side of criminal cases where you have refused?

Yes.

Does that happen fairly frequently?

No.

Now, you have received compensation for your services during this case, have you not?

Yes, I have.

When did you first become involved with the Simpson case?

In the latter part of June of 1994.

And that was at whose behest?

Dr. Henry Lee asked if I could be of some assistance.

And have you been involved working with the Defense on a somewhat continuous basis since this time?

Yes.