All right. Thank you, counsel. Proceed.

All right. Dr. Rieders, when I questioned you when you were last here on July 24th, I asked you whether testing had been done to determine whether--what the level--average level of EDTA might be in the average healthy person and you agreed there had not been such a test. Do you recall that testimony, sir?

I recall the testimony that there had not been a population study as one generally is, ATSDR and other agencies do, that I know of.

That would determine what the average level, if there is one, of EDTA in the average healthy person, correct?

Except for the small Foreman and Trujillo sample.

Sir--

That is a sample--

--I had asked you was that test was not conducted to determine what the average level might be in a healthy person of EDTA; isn't that correct, sir?

I don't know what it was conducted to do, but it gave you that information and the small number of people.

Sir, do you recall testifying on cross-examination back on July 24th that that was not the purpose of that testing back in the 1950's?

I'm sure that wasn't the purpose of the testing to determine the world population, but it was to measure the normal in those people, among other things.

Sir, do you recall testifying that with respect to that paper they were attempting to inject EDTA for the purpose of going into studies about how it would chelate with lead poisoning and tracing it through the body? Isn't that correct?

No, that--that paper--that particular paper is to study the pharmacokinetics of what the body does to EDTA. That is what the purpose of that paper was. And that includes determining that it is not detectable when you don't give it or that after you give it, after a period of time it disappears, it doesn't stay in the body. That is what the Foreman and Trujillo paper was and they repeated that in some additions in a book that came out a couple of years later from a symposium.

As a matter of fact, sir, isn't it true actually that that study found that it would pass through the body with the exception of about five percent, correct?

Objection, your Honor. After "No" it is nonresponsive.

Yes. Next question.

It shows--

Dr. Rieders, isn't it true that that study made no effort to determine whether average healthy people had a certain trace amount of EDTA in their blood at any given time? Isn't that true, sir?

No, I don't think so.

You think that that was the purpose of their study? Is that your testimony?

One of the purposes, that the baseline was something or zero. That is what the--part of it, yes, in those people.

They took a few people and they injected them with EDTA; isn't that correct?

Among other things that is what they did.

What tests do you know of, sir, that took average people who had not been injected with anything to determine whether some form of EDTA was present in their blood? What tests can you tell us about?

That particular one, because it took zero time. That is when they hadn't been injected.

Objection, your Honor, nonresponsive.

Overruled.

What test do you know of, sir, that went out, took people off the street and took people and took their blood to see if there was EDTA in it?

I told you before I don't know of any.

I object to the comments of counsel.

Overruled.

If a scientist is trying to prove that a substance is a particular compound, it is incumbent upon that scientist to do any test available to establish that, correct?

Would you repeat that, question, please.

If as a scientist you are trying to prove the presence of a particular compound, wouldn't you agree, sir, that it could be incumbent on you to do whatever tests are available and appropriate to do that?

Or else take someone else's data and review them.

All right. But then in that case that person would have done the testing, correct?

Beg pardon?

In that case someone else would have done the testing, correct?

Yes.

But the testing would have been done, do you agree?

If it is available, yes. I review the testing method and the result.

And testing is the cornerstone of science, isn't it, sir?

And the application of the scientific method, sir, requires that testing be done to test hypothesis and determine whether you can determine if a theory is correct or incorrect; isn't that true?

That is one of the cornerstones. The other cornerstone is to formulate hypotheses.

Okay. Once you formulate the hypotheses you have to determine, through testing, where the hypotheses is, correct or incorrect?

Or you let somebody else do that.

One way or another the hypotheses is tested, agreed?

Again and again, yes. That is what research means.

And hypotheses may prove to be correct and they may prove to be incorrect, wouldn't you agree, doctor?

Well, in--I mean, in a genuine scientific approach you never say that a hypotheses is correct, but I say that all tests do not--have failed, so it still stands until the next person comes along with a better test and perhaps knocks it over. That is why it is a hypotheses. But for the present it has been--everybody has failed to disprove it, let's put it that way.

And theories are disproven, though, are they not?

What is?

It does occur that hypotheses are disproven by testing; isn't that correct?

This happens all the time.

All the time. I'm sorry. Is that what you said?

That is the purpose of science is to set up hypothesis and then make tests to knock them down and more commonly that is successful rather than the failure to knock it down.

You have been working on this case for the Defense since September or October of 1994?

I have upon working on these cases. I have answered, various questions, and then I started working on these--on these papers after I got them, sure.

You--

I think September--I think September is when they first asked me some questions and asked me to look at something.

So were you retained by the Defense in September of 1994?

September or October, I think.

And since that time how many hours have you spent on the case total?

Objection, asked and answered.

Overruled.

I have no idea. I only write it down and send it in and then that gets billed, but I don't personally keep count of it. A lot of time, I can tell you that.

You don't personally keep count of your hours?

I don't keep them with me.

Objection. That misstates what he said.

Overruled.

You don't keep--

I told you I send in the sheet with hours and that is it. I don't keep adding up how many I worked, no.

You send the sheet to the Defense for billing?

I send the sheet to our billing department. They take care of those things.

And if could you, over the lunch hour, sir, I would ask, could you have your lab fax you the billing sheet that you have submitted in this case? Could you do that, sir?

I can call up and ask them to send you a copy of the billing, yes, although I think probably they have it right here.

Okay. We will determine that, sir. Could you also?

I beg your pardon?

We will determine that. I will speak with the Defense.

All right. Sure.

Could you also, sir, request that your lab fax you those articles--excuse me, the manufacturers--the manufacturers articles that you referred to, Hewlett Packard and Finnegan, in which you state that they say it is appropriate to identify a compound based on the detection of a single parent and single daughter ion?

Objection. That misstates his testimony.

Overruled.

I don't know what to ask them. I would have to look and ask Hewlett Packard whether they have a copy of such an article or whether I have it in my file. We would have to search for it. I can't ask them to send it. I would have to look for it.

You couldn't ask someone in your lab to look for it for you?

No, I don't think so. I don't think that they would have much luck looking through my file.

Could you make an effort in that regard, sir, over the lunch hour, to have someone at your lab look through your file for such an article?

I don't know who to ask honestly because my secretary won't be able to do that, and to ask a colleague I think is pretty onerous pulling him away from work he is doing. It is my job to do that. When I get back, I will be glad to look.

Would you also tell us, sir, whether you know of any article published by any scientists that would agree and state that the appropriate standard for the identification of a compound is the observation or detection of a single parent and single daughter ion? Are there such articles, sir?

I believe, yes, I think there are, and I think I could locate them.

And if you would, please, try to locate them over the lunch hour?

No, I can't do it over the lunch hour because I would have to go back and do a literature search.

Then you will forward it to us when you get back to your lab?

If I find it, I will. If not, I will send you a note that I haven't found it. Is that satisfactory?

That's fine. Thank you, sir. Now, would you say that the number of hours total that you spent on this case was over a hundred?

Objection, asked and answered.

Overruled.

Including the time I have spent here? I would say probably.

What experiments have you conducted since September or October when you were retained in this case in 1994, to prove that EDTA will degrade in sunlight?

Objection, asked and answered.

We asked that question on the 24th.

What experiments have you conducted since September of 1994 to prove that EDTA will degrade if it is left on metal?

Objection, asked and answered.

Sustained.

What experiments have you conducted to determine whether EDTA will degrade when it is on paint?

Your Honor, objection, asked and answered and counsel is arguing now.

Sustained. Why don't you just ask him the omnibus question, did you conduct any experiments regarding degradation?

All right. Did you conduct any experiments, sir, with respect to the degradation of EDTA when exposed to any kind of compound or element?

And is there any literature that you are aware of that determines that--that is based on experiments to show that EDTA will degrade in the presence of paint, or metal or fertilizer or rust?

There is lots in the literature about the breakdown of EDTA--

Objection, nonresponsive.

And as far as--

Overruled.

In sludge which contains all those things, yes.

Dr. Rieders, is it your testimony that there are articles, based on experiments, that show that EDTA degrades when exposed to paint, or metal or fertilizer or rust?

Would this be a good spot?

Yes, that's fine.

All right. Ladies and gentlemen, I'm going to take our recess for the noon hour. Dr. Rieders, you can step down.

Thank you.

Please remember all of my admonitions to you. Don't discuss the case amongst yourselves, don't form any opinions about the case, don't conduct any deliberations until the matter has been submitted to you, don't allow anybody to communicate with you with regard to the case. We will stand in recess until 1:30. All right.