Cross-examination of Dennis Fung (morning, part 4)

📄 Cross-examination of Dennis Fung (morning, part 4) — Wednesday, April 5, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\APR\5\CROSS-EXAMINATION-OF-DENNIS-FU.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 52 of 167

◀ Sidebar: question resubmission Cross-examination of Dennis Fung (morning, part 5) ▶

Witness: Dennis Fung
Examiner: Barry Scheck
Called by: Prosecution • Date: Wednesday, April 5, 1995 • Utterances: 623

Barry Scheck cross-examines LAPD criminalist Dennis Fung about evidence collection decisions at the Rockingham crime scene on June 13, 1994. Scheck methodically extracts admissions that Fung's partner Andrea Mazzola was 'entry level' and 'just starting out,' that working with her created a greater risk of mistakes, and that standard protective measures — including yellow crime scene tape around the Bronco — were not used. Fung also reveals that Detective Vannatter's stated rationale for refusing additional criminalist help was preserving chain of custody, a justification Scheck frames as ironic given the defense's contamination theory.

# 1 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT:)

# 2 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, OBVIOUSLY YOU ARE TO DISREGARD ANY DISRUPTIONS IN THE AUDIENCE. I THINK THAT PARTICULAR INCIDENT SPOKE FOR ITSELF. MR. SCHECK.

# 3 MR. SCHECK:

THANK YOU.

# 4 Q:

MR. FUNG WHEN YOU ARRIVED AT THE ROCKINGHAM CRIME SCENE DID DETECTIVE VANNATTER TELL THAT YOU DETECTIVE LANGE WAS WAITING FOR YOU AT BUNDY?

# 5 A:

I DON'T SPECIFICALLY RECALL IF HE MENTIONED IT WAS DETECTIVE LANGE HIMSELF, BUT HE DID MENTION THERE WAS ANOTHER SCENE AT BUNDY.

# 6 Q:

AND DID HE TELL YOU THAT AT THAT SCENE THERE WERE -- IT WAS A DOUBLE HOMICIDE AND THERE WERE TWO VICTIMS' BODIES THERE?

# 7 A:

YES.

# 8 Q:

AND WAS THERE A DISCUSSION OF THE NEED TO ARRIVE AT BUNDY BEFORE THE CORONERS, FOR THE CRIMINALISTS TO GET THERE BEFORE THE CORONERS?

# 9 A:

NO.

# 10 Q:

GENERALLY SPEAKING, ISN'T IT CERTAINLY DESIRABLE FOR THE CRIMINALISTS TO ARRIVE AT A HOMICIDE SCENE BEFORE THE CORONERS?

# 11 A:

FROM MY POINT OF VIEW?

# 12 Q:

YES.

# 13 A:

YES.

# 14 Q:

AND THE REASON THAT YOU WANT TO ARRIVE AT A HOMICIDE SCENE BEFORE THE CORONERS IS YOU WANT AN OPPORTUNITY TO EXAMINE THE SCENE AND THE EVIDENCE AT THE SCENE BEFORE THE BODIES ARE REMOVED?

# 15 A:

YES.

# 16 Q:

AND THAT IS BECAUSE YOU WANT TO BE ABLE TO DOCUMENT THAT SCENE IN ITS ORIGINAL CONDITION AS BEST YOU CAN?

# 17 A:

THAT IS PREFERABLE. THAT IS PREFERABLE THAT THAT IS DONE, YES.

# 18 Q:

SO YOU WANT TO BE ABLE TO TAKE MEASUREMENTS?

# 19 A:

YES.

# 20 Q:

YOU WANT TO BE ABLE TO DIRECT THE FORENSIC PHOTOGRAPHER ABOUT WHERE TO TAKE PICTURES?

# 21 A:

YES.

# 22 Q:

YOU WANT TO BE ABLE TO PRESERVE FRAGILE TRACE EVIDENCE AS BEST YOU CAN?

# 23 A:

YES.

# 24 Q:

COLLECT IT IN SUCH A WAY THAT THE INTEGRITY OF THE EVIDENCE IS PRESERVED?

# 25 A:

IF NECESSARY, YES.

# 26 Q:

GET TO THAT CRIME SCENE BEFORE ANYBODY WALKS THROUGH IT WHO IS NOT REQUIRED TO BE THERE?

# 27 A:

YES.

# 28 Q:

SO WHEN YOU ARRIVED AT ROCKINGHAM NOW, YOU ARE TELLING US YOU DIDN'T KNOW WHEN THE FIRST OFFICER HAD ARRIVED AT THE SCENE AT BUNDY; IS THAT RIGHT?

# 29 A:

YES.

# 30 Q:

BUT DID YOU HAVE AN IDEA OF HOW MANY HOURS IT WAS, WITHOUT KNOWING THE PRECISE TIMES, HOW MANY HOURS THE VICTIMS HAD BEEN AT BUNDY WITHOUT ANY CRIMINALISTS ARRIVING AT THE SCENE?

# 31 MR. GOLDBERG:

YOUR HONOR, THAT CALLS FOR SPECULATION AND HEARSAY.

# 32 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 33 DENNIS FUNG:

I ONLY KNEW THAT THE CRIME SCENE FROM BUNDY WAS FROM THE NIGHT BEFORE, SOME -- IN THE EARLY MORNING HOURS OR THE NIGHT BEFORE.

# 34 Q:

BY MR. SCHECK: SO YOU KNEW IT WAS THE EARLY MORNING HOURS AND NOW YOU WERE ARRIVING AT ROCKINGHAM AT AROUND 7:15, 7:20?

# 35 MR. GOLDBERG:

I OBJECT. THAT MISSTATES THE TESTIMONY.

# 36 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED AGAIN.

# 37 Q:

BY MR. SCHECK: NOW, IN YOUR DISCUSSION WITH DETECTIVE VANNATTER DID HE EXPRESS ANY URGENCY TO YOU THAT YOU SHOULD FINISH YOUR WORK AT ROCKINGHAM QUICKLY TO GET TO BUNDY?

# 38 A:

HE DID INFORM ME THAT I DID HAVE ANOTHER CRIME SCENE AT BUNDY AND HE DIDN'T RUSH ME ALONG, NO.

# 39 Q:

WELL, DID HE TELL YOU THAT -- DID HE INDICATE TO YOU IN ANY WAY THAT IT WOULD NOT BE A GOOD IDEA TO TAKE A VERY LONG TIME AT ROCKINGHAM BECAUSE YOU MIGHT NOT BE ABLE TO GET TO THE BUNDY SCENE BEFORE THE CORONERS? DID HE EXPRESS THAT CONCERN TO YOU?

# 40 A:

I DON'T RECALL THAT.

# 41 Q:

DID YOU HAVE THAT CONCERN?

# 42 A:

YES.

# 43 Q:

DID YOU EXPRESS THAT CONCERN TO HIM?

# 44 A:

I DON'T RECALL IF I DID OR NOT.

# 45 Q:

DID YOU TELL DETECTIVE VANNATTER THAT YOU THOUGHT YOU MIGHT NEED SOME EXTRA HELP BECAUSE YOU HAD THESE TWO CRIME SCENES?

# 46 A:

I BELIEVE I ASKED HIM IF HE WANTED ANOTHER -- ANOTHER TEAM.

# 47 Q:

YOU ASKED HIM THAT?

# 48 A:

I THINK I DID.

# 49 Q:

AND YOU ASKED HIM IF HE WANTED ANOTHER TEAM BECAUSE YOU BELIEVED THAT IT WAS IMPORTANT TO GET CRIMINALISTS TO BUNDY AS SOON AS POSSIBLE?

# 50 A:

IT WAS A RESOURCE AVAILABLE TO HIM IF HE WANTED IT.

# 51 Q:

WELL, YOU THOUGHT IT WAS IMPORTANT TO GET A SET OF CRIMINALISTS TO BUNDY AS SOON AS POSSIBLE, DIDN'T YOU, AS YOU WERE TALKING WITH DETECTIVE VANNATTER WHEN YOU FIRST ARRIVED AT THAT SCENE?

# 52 A:

I LEFT IT UP TO HIS DISCRETION.

# 53 Q:

HE TOLD YOU THAT THAT WASN'T NECESSARY?

# 54 A:

HE NEVER SAID THAT.

# 55 Q:

WELL, DID HE SAY, "NO, WE DON'T NEED THE HELP, THE EXTRA HELP"?

# 56 A:

I DON'T RECALL IF HE EVER SAID THAT.

# 57 Q:

WELL, DO YOU HAVE ANY RECOLLECTION AS TO HOW HE RESPONDED TO YOUR SUGGESTION THAT IT WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA TO GET SOME BACK-UP TO GET ANOTHER TEAM TO BUNDY?

# 58 MR. GOLDBERG:

YOUR HONOR, IT IS IRRELEVANT. IT CALLS FOR HEARSAY.

# 59 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 60 Q:

BY MR. SCHECK: BEFORE YOU SPOKE TO DETECTIVE VANNATTER YOU PLACED A CALL TO SID, DID YOU NOT?

# 61 A:

YES, I DID.

# 62 Q:

TO NOTIFY SUPERVISORS?

# 63 A:

YES.

# 64 Q:

AND THAT IS BECAUSE YOU THOUGHT THAT THIS WAS A CASE THAT REQUIRED IMMEDIATE NOTIFICATION OF SUPERVISORS?

# 65 A:

YES.

# 66 Q:

AND WHEN YOU PLACED THAT CALL AT 7:15 YOU KNEW THAT THERE WERE TWO CRIME SCENES?

# 67 A:

I DON'T KNOW IF IT WAS EXACTLY AT 7:15, BUT I KNEW THERE WERE TWO CRIME SCENES WHEN I MADE THE CALL.

# 68 Q:

ALL RIGHT. WELL, DID YOU CALL SID AND SPEAK TO A WOMAN NAMED LISA SIBETTA, S-I-B-E-T-T-A, SOMEBODY FROM TOXICOLOGY? DO YOU REMEMBER MAKING A FIRST CALL TO HER?

# 69 A:

I BELIEVE MY FIRST CALL WAS TO CRIMINALIST FLAHERTY IN TOXICOLOGY.

# 70 Q:

YOU WERE LOOKING FOR A SUPERVISOR?

# 71 A:

YES, I WAS.

# 72 Q:

YOU WERE LOOKING FOR MICHELE KESTLER?

# 73 A:

YES, I WAS.

# 74 Q:

SHE IS THE HEAD OF THE LABORATORY OR WAS THE ACTING HEAD AT THAT TIME?

# 75 A:

SHE WAS A CO-ACTING.

# 76 Q:

CO-ACTING HEAD? ALL RIGHT. BUT YOU WERE LOOKING TO TALK WITH HER, WERE YOU NOT?

# 77 A:

I WAS LOOKING TO SPEAK WITH A SUPERVISOR.

# 78 Q:

RIGHT. BECAUSE YOU -- AND THAT IS BECAUSE -- WELL, YOU TELL US. WHAT WAS IT THAT WAS GOING ON IN YOUR MIND THAT LED YOU TO CALL FOR A SUPERVISOR BEFORE YOU EVEN ARRIVED AT THE ROCKINGHAM SCENE?

# 79 A:

THERE ARE GUIDELINES WITHIN OUR LABORATORY THAT IF THERE IS A HIGH-PROFILE CASE OR A DOUBLE OR TRIPLE HOMICIDE, SOMETHING LIKE THAT, THAT SUPERVISORS BE NOTIFIED.

Q THOSE WERE THE POLICIES YOU AND I DISCUSSED YESTERDAY?

# 80 (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.)

# 81 Q:

PRESS, UNUSUAL CASE? DO YOU REMEMBER DISCUSSING THOSE?

# 82 A:

YES.

# 83 Q:

ALL RIGHT. HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A WRITTEN HANDOUT IN THE MANUAL WITH RESPECT TO THOSE POLICIES?

# 84 A:

NO, I HAVEN'T.

# 85 Q:

WELL, MOVING ON, SO YOU -- YOU FELT THE NEED TO CALL FOR THE SUPERVISOR AT 7:15 BEFORE YOU SPOKE TO DETECTIVE VANNATTER, RIGHT?

# 86 A:

BEFORE I SPOKE TO HIM?

# 87 Q:

YES, BEFORE YOU SPOKE TO DETECTIVE VANNATTER, YOU MADE THIS FIRST CALL TO SID LOOKING FOR MICHELE KESTLER?

# 88 A:

NO.

# 89 Q:

THAT FIRST NOTIFICATION CALL WAS NOT BEFORE YOU SPOKE TO DETECTIVE VANNATTER?

# 90 A:

IT WAS AFTER.

# 91 Q:

IT WAS AFTER?

# 92 A:

YES.

# 93 Q:

UMM, DIDN'T YOU ALSO THEN HAVE A CONVERSATION AT 7:50 WITH GREG MATHESON?

# 94 A:

I -- IN THAT TIME FRAME, YES.

# 95 Q:

AND AT THAT TIME -- AND HE WAS A SUPERVISOR, WAS HE NOT?

# 96 A:

YES, HE WAS.

# 97 Q:

AND YOU HAD THIS CONVERSATION WITH --

# 98 A:

OR HE IS.

# 99 Q:

-- WITH GREG MATHESON AFTER YOU SPOKE WITH DETECTIVE VANNATTER?

# 100 A:

YES.

# 101 Q:

WE WILL GET TO THAT CONVERSATION IN A MINUTE, BUT GOING BACK TO YOUR INITIAL CONVERSATION WITH DETECTIVE VANNATTER, DID HE TELL YOU THAT YOU WOULD HAVE TO BE DOING SOME PROCESSING OF THE BRONCO?

# 102 A:

YES.

# 103 Q:

AND THAT THE BRONCO WAS PART OF THE CRIME SCENE?

# 104 A:

YES.

# 105 Q:

AND AFTER THIS -- AND THAT WAS AFTER -- YOU REALIZED THAT AFTER THIS INITIAL CONVERSATION YOU HAD WITH DETECTIVE VANNATTER, RIGHT, THAT YOU WOULD HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE BRONCO?

# 106 A:

YES.

# 107 Q:

ALL RIGHT. AND YOU DIDN'T KNOW THAT BEFORE YOU ARRIVED AT THE SCENE, DID YOU?

# 108 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

# 109 Q:

AND, UMM, IT WAS AFTER YOUR CONVERSATION, YOUR INITIAL CONVERSATION WITH DETECTIVE VANNATTER, UMM, THAT YOU REALIZED THAT, UMM, ANDREA MAZZOLA COULD NOT ACT AS THE, QUOTE, OFFICER IN CHARGE, OF THIS CASE?

# 110 A:

I THOUGHT IT MORE PRUDENT THAT I BE THE OFFICER IN CHARGE.

# 111 Q:

I THINK YOUR PHRASE ON DIRECT EXAMINATION IS THAT AFTER YOUR CONVERSATION WITH DETECTIVE VANNATTER YOU REALIZED THAT MISS MAZZOLA SHOULD TAKE SOMETHING OF A BACKSEAT? ARE THOSE YOUR WORDS?

# 112 MR. GOLDBERG:

YOUR HONOR -- I WILL WITHDRAW THE OBJECTION.

# 113 DENNIS FUNG:

YES.

# 114 Q:

BY MR. SCHECK: AND YOU GAVE THAT EXPLANATION ON DIRECT EXAMINATION, THAT PRIOR TO GOING TO THE SCENE, WHEN YOU WERE FILLING OUT YOUR CRIME SCENE CHECKLIST, ANDREA MAZZOLA'S NAME WAS WRITTEN IN AS OFFICER IN CHARGE BEFORE YOU GOT THERE? REMEMBER THAT?

# 115 A:

YES.

# 116 Q:

AND THAT WAS BECAUSE YOU THOUGHT THAT SHE WAS GOING TO BE THE OFFICER IN CHARGE ON THIS HOMICIDE CASE UNTIL YOU ARRIVED AT THE SCENE AND SPOKE WITH DETECTIVE VANNATTER, RIGHT?

# 117 A:

YES.

# 118 Q:

ALL RIGHT. BUT IT WAS AFTER YOUR CONVERSATION WITH DETECTIVE VANNATTER THAT YOU FIRST REALIZED THAT YOU WOULD HAVE TO BE DOING A VEHICLE SEARCH OF THE BRONCO, CORRECT?

# 119 A:

YES.

# 120 Q:

SIR, WOULD YOU PLEASE TURN TO YOUR -- YOU HAVE A FORM THAT IS KNOWN AS A VEHICLE CHECKLIST, CORRECT?

# 121 A:

YES.

# 122 Q:

AND YOU FILLED ONE OUT WITH RESPECT TO THE SEARCH OF THE BRONCO, DID YOU NOT?

# 123 A:

ONE WAS FILLED OUT, YES.

# 124 Q:

DO YOU HAVE THAT BEFORE YOU?

# 125 A:

YES, I DO.

# 126 Q:

COULD YOU TURN TO THE FIRST PAGE OF IT.

# 127 A:

YES.

# 128 MR. GOLDBERG:

COULD I JUST HAVE ONE MOMENT, YOUR HONOR?

# 129 THE COURT:

CERTAINLY.

# 130 (BRIEF PAUSE.)

# 131 MR. GOLDBERG:

I APOLOGIZE, COUNSEL.

# 132 Q:

BY MR. SCHECK: NOW, THIS VEHICLE CHECKLIST FORM, WAS THAT -- WITHDRAWN. ON THIS VEHICLE CHECKLIST FORM THERE IS ALSO A BOX THAT INDICATES WHO IS THE OFFICER IN CHARGE OF THE VEHICLE SEARCH, CORRECT?

# 133 A:

YES.

# 134 Q:

AND ON THAT BOX IT IS LISTED AS ANDREA MAZZOLA AS BEING IN CHARGE -- THE OFFICER IN CHARGE OF THE VEHICLE SEARCH, CORRECT?

# 135 A:

YES.

# 136 Q:

SO ARE YOU SURE THAT YOU HADN'T GIVEN UP THE IDEA THAT MAYBE MISS MAZZOLA WOULD STILL BE SORT OF ACTING AS THE OFFICER IN CHARGE WHEN YOU GOT TO ROCKINGHAM?

# 137 A:

I DON'T UNDERSTAND YOUR QUESTION.

# 138 Q:

ALL RIGHT. YOU TOLD US THE ONLY REASON THAT ANDREA MAZZOLA'S NAME WAS WRITTEN IN AS THE OFFICER IN CHARGE ON THE ROCKINGHAM CHECKLIST IS THAT IT WAS FILLED OUT BEFORE YOU GOT TO THE SCENE, RIGHT?

# 139 (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.)

# 140 Q:

THAT IS WHAT YOU SAID ON DIRECT.

# 141 A:

THAT WAS THE REASON WHY SHE WAS PUT IN THE "OFFICER IN CHARGE" SPACE, YES.

# 142 Q:

ALL RIGHT. AND -- BUT AFTER YOU HAD GOTTEN TO THE SCENE AND AFTER YOU FIRST LEARNED THAT YOU WOULD HAVE TO BE SEARCHING THE BRONCO, ANDREA MAZZOLA WAS STILL LISTED ON THE VEHICLE CHECKLIST FORM AS THE OFFICER IN CHARGE, RIGHT?

# 143 A:

YES.

# 144 Q:

NOW, WE HAD SOME DISCUSSION YESTERDAY ABOUT THE USE OF THIS WORD "TRAINEE" WITH RESPECT TO MISS MAZZOLA. DO YOU RECALL THAT?

# 145 A:

YES.

# 146 Q:

AND UMM, YOU DON'T LIKE THE DESCRIPTION OF MISS MAZZOLA AS A TRAINEE? YOU DON'T THINK THAT IT IS FAIR TO DESCRIBE HER ON JUNE 13TH AS A TRAINEE; IS THAT RIGHT?

# 147 MR. GOLDBERG:

I OBJECT. THAT IS ARGUMENTATIVE.

# 148 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 149 DENNIS FUNG:

I THINK A BETTER DESCRIPTION OF HER IS CRIMINALIST 1.

# 150 Q:

BY MR. SCHECK: CRIMINALIST 1, BUT IN TERMS OF HER LEVEL OF EXPERIENCE, YOU DON'T FEEL THAT IT IS -- WHAT WORD WOULD YOU LIKE TO USE, IF NOT TRAINEE? WOULD YOU FEEL MORE COMFORTABLE WITH THE WORD "NOVICE," THAT SHE WAS A NOVICE IN PROCESSING CRIME SCENES?

# 151 MR. GOLDBERG:

YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT. IT IS ARGUMENTATIVE.

# 152 THE COURT:

IT IS VAGUE, TOO.

# 153 MR. SCHECK:

ALL RIGHT.

# 154 Q:

YOU UNDERSTAND THAT HER -- WHEN YOU HIRE ON AT SID YOU AUTOMATICALLY DAY ONE ON THE JOB YOU ARE A CRIMINALIST 1, RIGHT?

# 155 A:

IF YOU ARE HIRED IN THAT CAPACITY, YES.

# 156 Q:

RIGHT. SO WHEN YOU GET ON THE JOB YOU ARE IMMEDIATELY A CRIMINALIST 1, FAIR TO SAY?

# 157 A:

YES.

# 158 Q:

BUT BEING A CRIMINALIST 1 DOESN'T TELL ONE MUCH ABOUT THE LEVEL OF EXPERIENCE THAT YOU HAVE, CORRECT?

# 159 A:

IN REGARD TO?

# 160 Q:

HOW MANY CRIME SCENES YOU HAVE PROCESSED, WHAT YOU KNOW?

# 161 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

# 162 Q:

AND SO IT IS A PERIOD -- WOULD YOU SAY THAT THE COURSE OF -- THERE IS A COURSE OF TRAINING AS A CRIMINALIST 1 THAT ONE GOES THROUGH IN TERMS OF EXPERIENCE?

# 163 A:

YES.

# 164 Q:

YOU LEARN BY EXPERIENCE?

# 165 A:

YES.

# 166 Q:

AND IN TERMS OF LEARNING BY EXPERIENCE, MISS MAZZOLA WAS AT THE VERY BEGINNING OF THIS PROCESS? FAIR ENOUGH?

# 167 A:

SHE WAS AT THE BEGINNING, YES.

# 168 Q:

WOULD IT BE FAIR TO CALL HER A ROOKIE IN PROCESSING CRIME SCENES?

# 169 MR. GOLDBERG:

ARGUMENTATIVE.

# 170 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED. WHY DON'T YOU JUST TRY "ENTRY LEVEL."

# 171 MR. SCHECK:

I AM LOOKING FOR A WORD THAT THE WITNESS IS COMFORTABLE WITH.

# 172 THE COURT:

THERE HAVE BEEN ROOKIES OF THE YEAR WHO HAVE BEEN MVP'S.

KEY QUOTE

# 173 MR. SCHECK:

SURE THING.

# 174 Q:

WELL, WOULD YOU CALL HER A NOVICE?

# 175 MR. GOLDBERG:

YOUR HONOR, IT IS ARGUMENTATIVE.

# 176 Q:

BY MR. SCHECK: ENTRY LEVEL? HOW ABOUT THAT?

# 177 A:

YES.

# 178 Q:

SHE IS AN ENTRY LEVEL PERSON AT THE BEGINNING OF HER LEARNING BY EXPERIENCE PROCESS, AT THE BEGINNING OF IT?

# 179 A:

SHE IS STARTING IT, YES.

# 180 Q:

SHE WAS STARTING OUT?

# 181 A:

YES.

# 182 Q:

NOW, DID YOU TELL DETECTIVE VANNATTER, WHEN YOU WERE HAVING THIS DISCUSSION WITH HIM ABOUT WHETHER HELP WAS NEEDED, THAT MISS MAZZOLA WAS THIS ENTRY LEVEL PERSON WHO WAS STARTING OUT?

# 183 MR. GOLDBERG:

YOUR HONOR, IT IS IRRELEVANT.

# 184 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 185 DENNIS FUNG:

I DON'T RECALL THAT, NO.

# 186 Q:

BY MR. SCHECK: YOU DIDN'T TELL HIM?

# 187 A:

I DON'T RECALL IF I DID OR NOT.

# 188 Q:

MEANING YOU ARE NOT SURE?

# 189 A:

I'M NOT SURE.

# 190 Q:

DID YOU FEEL THAT YOU HAD A RESPONSIBILITY TO TELL HIM THAT THE PERSON THAT YOU ARRIVED WITH AT THE CRIME SCENE WAS AN ENTRY LEVEL PERSON THAT WAS STARTING OUT?

# 191 A:

NO.

# 192 Q:

WELL, WHEN YOU WERE MAKING YOUR SUGGESTION TO DETECTIVE VANNATTER THAT YOU MIGHT NEED SOME HELP IN THIS CASE, DIDN'T YOU THINK IT APPROPRIATE TO TELL HIM THAT ONE OF THE REASONS YOU NEEDED HELP IS THAT YOU WERE WITH A PERSON THAT WAS ENTRY LEVEL AND JUST STARTING OUT?

# 193 A:

NO.

# 194 Q:

WERE YOU RELUCTANT TO TELL THAT TO DETECTIVE VANNATTER?

# 195 A:

NO.

# 196 Q:

WERE YOU AT ALL INTIMIDATED BY DETECTIVE VANNATTER?

# 197 A:

NO.

# 198 Q:

WERE YOU AT ALL RELUCTANT TO QUESTION HIS JUDGMENTS?

# 199 A:

NO.

# 200 Q:

WHEN HE TURNED DOWN YOUR SUGGESTION THAT YOU OUGHT TO GET SOME EXTRA HELP IN THIS CASE, WERE YOU RELUCTANT TO QUESTION THAT DECISION?

# 201 MR. GOLDBERG:

ASSUMES A FACT NOT IN EVIDENCE.

# 202 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 203 Q:

BY MR. SCHECK: WELL, YOU MADE THE SUGGESTION THAT EXTRA HELP MIGHT BE NECESSARY?

# 204 A:

I ASKED HIM IF ANOTHER TEAM -- IF HE WANTED ANOTHER TEAM.

# 205 Q:

ALL RIGHT. AND YOU -- AS I THINK YOU JUST TOLD US, AND ONE OF THE REASONS WAS YOU KNEW THERE WERE TWO CRIME SCENES?

# 206 A:

YES.

# 207 Q:

AND YOU WERE CONCERNED ABOUT GETTING THE CRIMINALISTS TO BUNDY BEFORE THE CORONERS?

# 208 A:

NOT -- THAT WASN'T THE SPECIFIC REASON, NO.

# 209 Q:

WELL, THAT WAS ONE REASON? DIDN'T YOU JUST TELL US THAT, THAT WAS ONE REASON?

# 210 A:

I DON'T THINK I SAID THAT, NO.

# 211 Q:

NO? WELL, WHEN YOU MADE THIS SUGGESTION THAT MORE HELP MIGHT BE NECESSARY TO DETECTIVE VANNATTER, DID HE JUST IGNORE THAT SUGGESTION, NOT RESPOND TO YOU AT ALL?

# 212 A:

NO.

# 213 Q:

HE DIDN'T IGNORE IT?

# 214 A:

NO, HE DIDN'T.

# 215 Q:

HE SAID NO, WE DON'T NEED ANY EXTRA HELP?

# 216 A:

I BELIEVE HE SAID SOMETHING TO THE EFFECT THAT HE PREFERRED THAT ONE TEAM HANDLE BOTH CRIME SCENES SO THAT THE CHAIN OF CUSTODY WOULD NOT BE MESSED UP.

KEY QUOTE

# 217 Q:

THAT IS WHAT HE SAID?

# 218 A:

SOMETHING TO THAT EFFECT.

# 219 Q:

ALL RIGHT. AND WHEN HE SAID THAT, DID YOU THEN RESPOND TO HIM, "WELL, UMM, WE HAVE A SITUATION HERE WHERE ONE OF THE PEOPLE I'M WORKING WITH IS ENTRY LEVEL, JUST STARTING OUT"? DID YOU SAY THAT TO HIM AT THAT POINT?

# 220 A:

NO.

# 221 Q:

DID YOU EXPRESS ANY CONCERN TO HIM THAT WHATEVER WORRIES HE HAD ABOUT CHAIN OF CUSTODY, UMM, IT WAS STILL MORE IMPORTANT TO GET ANOTHER TEAM OF CRIMINALISTS TO BUNDY BEFORE THE CORONERS ARRIVED?

# 222 A:

I DID NOT SAY THAT TO HIM.

# 223 Q:

DID YOU HAVE THAT CONCERN WHEN HE SAID TO YOU, NO, I JUST WANT TO CONTINUE WITH ONE TEAM? DID YOU HAVE THAT CONCERN?

# 224 MR. GOLDBERG:

YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT THAT IT ASSUMES A FACT NOT IN EVIDENCE. MAYBE I COULD BE HEARD ABOUT THAT TO EXPLAIN IT.

# 225 THE COURT:

OVERRULED. YOU CAN ANSWER THE QUESTION.

# 226 DENNIS FUNG:

COULD YOU REPEAT THE QUESTION AGAIN?

# 227 Q:

BY MR. SCHECK: WHEN DETECTIVE VANNATTER -- MAYBE WE BETTER HAVE THE COURT REPORTER REPEAT THE QUESTION.

# 228 THE COURT:

WERE YOU CONCERNED AT THAT TIME THAT IT WAS IMPORTANT FOR A CRIMINALIST TO ARRIVE AT THE BUNDY SCENE BEFORE THE CORONERS MOVED THE BODY?

# 229 DENNIS FUNG:

NOT AT THAT TIME.

# 230 Q:

BY MR. SCHECK: UMM, NOW, WERE YOU WORRIED WHEN DETECTIVE VANNATTER TURNED DOWN YOUR SUGGESTION THAT OTHER CRIMINALISTS BE CALLED IN TO HELP? WERE YOU WORRIED ABOUT THE FACT THAT YOU WERE WORKING WITH THIS PERSON WHO WAS ENTRY LEVEL AND STARTING OUT?

# 231 A:

NO.

# 232 Q:

WERE YOU WORRIED THAT WHEN YOU WERE WORKING WITH THE PERSON WHO IS ENTRY LEVEL AND STARTING OUT THAT PROCESSING THE CRIME SCENE WOULD BE SLOWER?

# 233 MR. GOLDBERG:

IT IS VAGUE, YOUR HONOR.

# 234 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 235 DENNIS FUNG:

THAT IS NOT NECESSARILY THE CASE.

# 236 Q:

BY MR. SCHECK: WELL -- I'M SORRY, GO AHEAD. ARE YOU FINISHED?

# 237 A:

WHEN TWO PEOPLE ARE WORKING, SOMETIMES IT GOES FASTER.

# 238 Q:

BUT WHEN YOU ARE WORKING WITH -- HAD YOU EVER WORKED WITH ANDREA MAZZOLA BEFORE THIS DAY?

# 239 A:

YES, I HAD.

# 240 Q:

HOW MANY CRIME SCENES HAD YOU DONE WITH HER?

# 241 A:

ONE.

# 242 Q:

HOW LONG AGO WAS THAT?

# 243 A:

THAT WAS THE -- THAT WAS TWO DAYS BEFORE.

# 244 Q:

TWO DAYS BEFORE DID YOU A CRIME SCENE WITH ANDREA MAZZOLA?

# 245 A:

YES.

# 246 Q:

WHERE SHE COLLECTED EVIDENCE?

# 247 A:

WHERE SHE -- WE WERE WORKING AS A TEAM, YES.

# 248 Q:

WHERE SHE COLLECTED EVIDENCE? YOU DID A CRIME SCENE TWO DAYS BEFORE WITH ANDREA MAZZOLA? ARE YOU SURE OF THAT?

# 249 A:

YES.

# 250 Q:

NOW, YOU HAD NO CONCERN -- WERE YOU WORRIED -- WITHDRAWN. WHEN YOU ARE WORKING WITH A PERSON WHO IS ENTRY LEVEL AND STARTING OUT, DON'T YOU FEEL IT IS REQUIRED FOR YOU TO OBSERVE WHAT SHE IS DOING MORE THAN YOU WOULD IF IT WERE SOME OTHER CRIMINALIST 2 OR 3?

# 251 A:

YES.

# 252 Q:

SO WOULDN'T THE NEED TO OBSERVE WHAT THIS ENTRY LEVEL PERSON WAS DOING MAKE PROCESSING THE CRIME SCENE SLOWER?

# 253 A:

NOT NECESSARILY.

# 254 Q:

WELL, IF YOU HAVE TO OBSERVE HER, YOU CAN'T BE OFF DOING SOMETHING ELSE?

# 255 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

# 256 Q:

AND YOU DON'T THINK THAT WOULD MAKE IT SLOWER?

# 257 A:

WHERE I WOULD LOSE TIME IN ONE AREA, I COULD MAKE UP TIME IN ANOTHER AREA, BECAUSE THERE ARE TWO PEOPLE THERE.

# 258 Q:

WELL, IF THERE WERE TWO PEOPLE THERE, BOTH OF WHOM WERE TRAINED, IT WOULD GO FASTER, RIGHT?

# 259 A:

NOT NECESSARILY.

# 260 Q:

NO? WERE YOU WORRIED THAT WORKING WITH AN ENTRY LEVEL PERSON IN A HIGH-PROFILE CASE WOULD PUT A LOT OF PRESSURE ON HER?

# 261 A:

WAS I WORRIED ABOUT IT?

# 262 Q:

YEAH.

# 263 A:

I WAS AWARE OF IT.

# 264 Q:

WERE YOU WORRIED ABOUT IT?

# 265 MR. GOLDBERG:

YOUR HONOR, I WILL OBJECT. IT IS IRRELEVANT WHETHER HE WAS WORRIED ABOUT IT.

# 266 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 267 Q:

BY MR. SCHECK: WERE YOU WORRIED THAT WORKING WITH AN ENTRY LEVEL PERSON IN THIS KIND OF A HIGH-PROFILE CASE WHEN YOU WERE AT ROCKINGHAM WOULD PUT MORE PRESSURE ON YOU?

# 268 MR. GOLDBERG:

OBJECTION, IRRELEVANT.

# 269 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 270 DENNIS FUNG:

THAT WAS NOT A CONCERN TO ME AT THAT TIME.

# 271 Q:

BY MR. SCHECK: DIDN'T CROSS YOUR MIND?

# 272 A:

I DIDN'T THINK ABOUT IT, NO.

# 273 Q:

WERE YOU CONCERNED THAT WORKING WITH AN ENTRY LEVEL PERSON IN THIS KIND OF CASE WOULD PRODUCE A GREATER CHANCE OF MISTAKES? WAS THAT A CONCERN OF YOURS THAT MORNING AT ROCKINGHAM?

# 274 A:

THAT WOULD BE FOR ANY CASE, NOT JUST FOR ANY -- FOR A HIGH-PROFILE CASE. IF THERE IS AN ENTRY LEVEL PERSON OR A PERSON JUST STARTING OUT, I WOULD WATCH THEM MORE CLOSELY THAN SOMEONE WHO IS EXPERIENCED.

# 275 Q:

SO IN YOUR MIND THAT MORNING AT ROCKINGHAM YOU REALIZED THAT WORKING WITH AN ENTRY LEVEL PERSON THERE WAS A GREATER CHANCE OF MISTAKES, RIGHT? THAT IS WHAT YOU JUST SAID?

# 276 A:

YES.

# 277 Q:

ALL RIGHT. AND WEREN'T YOU CONCERNED, WHEN DETECTIVE VANNATTER TURNED DOWN YOUR REQUEST FOR HELP, THAT THERE WAS A GREATER CHANCE OF MISTAKES BECAUSE YOU WERE WORKING WITH AN ENTRY LEVEL PERSON AND THIS WAS A HIGH-PROFILE CASE?

# 278 A:

YOU HAVE GOT A LOT OF FACTORS IN THERE. COULD WE GO THROUGH THEM ONE AT A TIME?

# 279 Q:

SURE. I'M ASKING YOU, YOU HAVE -- WE AGREED THAT YOU KNEW, WHEN DETECTIVE VANNATTER TURNED DOWN YOUR SUGGESTION FOR EXTRA HELP, THAT THIS WAS A HIGH-PROFILE CASE, RIGHT?

# 280 (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.)

# 281 Q:

YOU KNEW THAT?

# 282 A:

YES.

# 283 Q:

YOU KNEW THAT YOU HAD TO GO TO ANOTHER CRIME SCENE WHERE THERE WAS A DOUBLE HOMICIDE?

# 284 A:

YES.

# 285 Q:

YOU KNEW THAT THERE WOULD BE PRESS PEOPLE AT THESE CRIME SCENES?

# 286 A:

I DIDN'T KNOW THAT. I WOULD -- I ASSUMED THERE WOULD BE.

# 287 Q:

YOU ANTICIPATED IT, DIDN'T YOU?

# 288 A:

YES.

# 289 Q:

YOU ANTICIPATED THAT THERE WOULD BE POLICE BRASS AT THESE SCENES WATCHING YOUR EVERY MOVEMENT?

# 290 A:

NOT NECESSARILY, NO.

# 291 Q:

DIDN'T ANTICIPATE THAT?

# 292 A:

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY "BRASS"?

# 293 Q:

HIGHER-UPS IN THE POLICE DEPARTMENT AT THE SCENE WATCHING?

# 294 MR. GOLDBERG:

THAT IS VAGUE AS TO "HIGHER-UPS."

# 295 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 296 MR. SCHECK:

ALL RIGHT.

# 297 Q:

UMM, HIGH LEVEL OFFICERS IN THE POLICE DEPARTMENT, PEOPLE OF HIGH RANK? DID YOU ANTICIPATE THAT THEY MAY COME TO THE SCENES?

# 298 MR. GOLDBERG:

STILL VAGUE.

# 299 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 300 DENNIS FUNG:

PEOPLE OF HIGH RANK CAN ALWAYS COME TO A SCENE.

# 301 Q:

BY MR. SCHECK: WELL, DIDN'T YOU ANTICIPATE THAT THEY WOULD BE COMING TO THESE TWO SCENES?

# 302 A:

THEY COULD HAVE COME, YES.

# 303 Q:

I'M ASKING YOU WHAT YOUR STATE OF MIND WAS. DIDN'T YOU ANTICIPATE THAT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN HERE?

# 304 A:

I KNEW IT WAS A POSSIBILITY.

# 305 Q:

ALL RIGHT. SO PUTTING THESE FACTORS TOGETHER, SHE IS AN ENTRY LEVEL PERSON, IT IS A HIGH-PROFILE CASE, THERE WILL BE PRESS AT THE SCENES, THERE WILL BE HIGH-RANKING PEOPLE AT THE SCENES, DIDN'T YOU BECOME CONCERNED, WHEN DETECTIVE VANNATTER REFUSED YOUR REQUEST FOR EXTRA HELP, THAT THERE WOULD BE A GREATER POSSIBILITY OF MISTAKES HERE BECAUSE YOU WERE USING AN ENTRY LEVEL PERSON?

# 306 MR. GOLDBERG:

ARGUMENTATIVE AND UNINTELLIGIBLE.

# 307 THE COURT:

IT ASSUMES ONE FACT THAT IS NOT IN EVIDENCE AS WELL, ALSO MISSTATES ONE PIECE OF THE EVIDENCE.

# 308 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

# 309 Q:

BY MR. SCHECK: DID -- MAYBE THE WORD "REFUSED" IS A PROBLEM HERE. DETECTIVE VANNATTER DID NOT TAKE YOUR SUGGESTION FOR EXTRA HELP, RIGHT?

# 310 A:

I DID NOT SUGGEST TO HIM --

# 311 MR. GOLDBERG:

THE SAME OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.

# 312 Q:

BY MR. SCHECK: YOU MADE A SUGGESTION TO DETECTIVE VANNATTER THAT EXTRA HELP WAS NEEDED, RIGHT?

# 313 A:

NO, I ASKED HIM.

# 314 Q:

YOU ASKED HIM IF HE WANTED EXTRA HELP?

# 315 A:

YES.

# 316 Q:

AND HE TOLD YOU NO?

# 317 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

# 318 Q:

WE ARE FOCUSING ON THAT MOMENT. NOW, AT THAT MOMENT, REVIEWING THE FACTORS AGAIN, ENTRY LEVEL PERSON, PRESS CASE, HIGH-RANKING OFFICERS AT THE SCENE, DIDN'T YOU THINK AT THAT MOMENT THAT THERE WAS GOING TO BE A GREATER CHANCE OF MISTAKES BEING MADE UNLESS YOU GOT EXTRA HELP?

# 319 MR. GOLDBERG:

YOUR HONOR, SAME OBJECTIONS.

# 320 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 321 DENNIS FUNG:

I DON'T RECALL THINKING ABOUT THAT WHEN I WAS AT THE SCENE.

# 322 THE COURT:

MADAM COURT REPORTER, WHAT IS YOUR STATUS?

# 323 REPORTER OLSON:

I'M FINE.

# 324 THE COURT:

CAN YOU FINISH THE HOUR?

# 325 REPORTER OLSON:

YES.

# 326 Q:

BY MR. SCHECK: DO YOU THINK IT WAS A MISTAKE NOT TO FOLLOW UP WITH DETECTIVE VANNATTER AND SAY, "DETECTIVE VANNATTER, I THINK THAT WE REALLY OUGHT TO GET MORE HELP IN THIS CASE"?

# 327 MR. GOLDBERG:

YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT. ARGUMENTATIVE, ASKED AND ANSWERED.

# 328 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 329 Q:

BY MR. SCHECK: HAVE YOU DISCUSSED THIS CASE WITH DETECTIVE VANNATTER SINCE JUNE 13TH?

# 330 A:

YES.

# 331 Q:

HAVE YOU DISCUSSED WITH DETECTIVE VANNATTER THIS ISSUE OF TELLING HIM THAT YOU WERE AT THE SCENE WITH AN ENTRY LEVEL PERSON?

# 332 A:

NO.

# 333 Q:

THAT HASN'T ARISEN?

# 334 A:

I DON'T RECALL DISCUSSING THAT WITH HIM.

# 335 Q:

HAS DETECTIVE VANNATTER EVER CRITICIZED YOU FOR NOT TELLING HIM THAT YOU WERE THERE AT THE SCENE WITH AN ENTRY LEVEL PERSON?

# 336 MR. GOLDBERG:

I OBJECT. THAT MISSTATES THE EVIDENCE.

# 337 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 338 Q:

BY MR. SCHECK: DID DETECTIVE VANNATTER EVER TELL YOU THAT HE DIDN'T THINK AN ENTRY LEVEL PERSON WAS THE KIND OF PERSON HE WOULD LIKE WORKING ON THIS CASE?

# 339 A:

DID HE EVER STATE THAT?

# 340 Q:

YES. DID HE EVER STATE THAT TO YOU?

# 341 A:

NO.

# 342 Q:

NOW, DETECTIVE VANNATTER ASKED YOU TO PROCESS A RED STAIN ON THE BRONCO?

# 343 A:

YES.

# 344 Q:

AND HE TOLD YOU THAT THE BRONCO WAS PART OF THE CRIME SCENE?

# 345 A:

YES.

# 346 Q:

BUT THERE WAS NO YELLOW TAPE AROUND THAT BRONCO, WAS THERE?

# 347 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

# 348 Q:

AND THERE SHOULD HAVE BEEN?

# 349 A:

NOT NECESSARILY.

# 350 Q:

WASN'T IT PROPER TO HAVE A YELLOW TAPE SURROUNDING THAT BRONCO SO THAT NOBODY COULD GET TO IT, SECURE IT AS BEING WITHIN THE CRIME SCENE?

# 351 A:

IT IS NOT ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY TO PUT UP YELLOW TAPE TO DENOTE A CRIME SCENE.

# 352 Q:

WELL, ISN'T IT APPROPRIATE TO PUT UP YELLOW TAPE TO SURROUND IMPORTANT ITEMS OF EVIDENCE TO MAKE SURE PEOPLE DON'T APPROACH IT AND TOUCH IT?

# 353 A:

IF THE CIRCUMSTANCES REQUIRE IT, YES.

# 354 Q:

WELL, IN YOUR JUDGMENT DIDN'T THE CIRCUMSTANCES REQUIRE PUTTING A YELLOW TAPE AROUND THAT BRONCO TO PRESERVE THE INTEGRITY OF THAT IMPORTANT PIECE OF EVIDENCE?

# 355 A:

IN THE MORNING?

# 356 Q:

THAT MORNING.

# 357 A:

NO.

# 358 Q:

YOU DIDN'T THINK SO?

# 359 A:

NO.

# 360 Q:

WELL, WEREN'T THEY ASKING YOU TO TAKE A RED STAIN OFF THE DOOR HANDLE OF THAT BRONCO?

# 361 A:

YES.

# 362 Q:

DIDN'T YOU TELL US ON DIRECT EXAMINATION THAT YOU LOOKED INTO THAT BRONCO AND YOU SAW WHAT YOU THOUGHT WERE BLOOD STAINS IN THE BRONCO?

# 363 A:

YES.

# 364 Q:

AND DID ANYBODY EXPRESS CONCERN TO YOU THAT LATER THAT BRONCO WAS GOING TO HAVE TO BE PROCESSED FOR FINGERPRINTS?

# 365 A:

YES.

# 366 Q:

AND YOU DIDN'T THINK IT WAS APPROPRIATE AT THAT TIME TO PUT A YELLOW TAPE AROUND THAT BRONCO TO MAKE SURE PEOPLE DIDN'T WALK OVER AND TOUCH THAT CAR?

# 367 MR. GOLDBERG:

MISSTATES THE TESTIMONY AS TO THE WORD "APPROPRIATE."

# 368 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 369 DENNIS FUNG:

AT THAT TIME IN THE MORNING THERE WAS VIRTUALLY NOBODY OUT IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD AND IT WAS VERY QUIET AND YELLOW TAPE MAY HAVE ATTRACTED EVEN MORE PEOPLE, SO THAT -- THE USE OF IT WASN'T NECESSARY. THERE WAS NOBODY AROUND.

KEY QUOTE

# 370 Q:

BY MR. SCHECK: ISN'T IT TRUE THAT INVESTIGATORS ARE SUPPOSED TO ADHERE TO THE CRIMINALIST'S ADVICE AND DIRECTION RELATING TO THE GATHERING OF EVIDENCE?

# 371 A:

YES.

# 372 Q:

THAT HAS BEEN A LONG-STANDING POLICY IN THE LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT, HASN'T IT?

# 373 A:

YES.

# 374 Q:

YOU ARE AWARE OF A MEMO FROM A PERSON NAMED DARRYL GATES? HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A MEMO BY DARRYL GATES ABOUT THIS ISSUE?

# 375 A:

I DON'T RECALL THE EXACT MEMO, BUT I -- I AM AWARE OF ONE THAT TOUCHES THAT TOPIC.

# 376 Q:

YOU HAVE THAT MANUAL -- WHO IS DARRYL GATES, INCIDENTALLY? I AM NOT FROM AROUND HERE.

# 377 A:

DARRYL GATES IS THE PREVIOUS POLICE CHIEF.

# 378 Q:

HE WAS A POLICE CHIEF HERE FOR A LONG TIME, WASN'T HE?

# 379 A:

YES.

# 380 Q:

AND WERE -- TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE IN YOUR EIGHT YEARS AT SID HAS THERE EVER BEEN ANY CONFLICT BETWEEN CRIMINALISTS WHO GO TO INVESTIGATE THE SCENES AND THE DETECTIVES WHO ARE IN CHARGE OF THE SCENES IN TERMS OF PROPER PROCEDURES FOR COLLECTING EVIDENCE?

# 381 MR. GOLDBERG:

IRRELEVANT.

# 382 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 383 DENNIS FUNG:

I HAVE BEEN WITH SID FOR TEN YEARS.

# 384 Q:

BY MR. SCHECK: I'M SORRY?

# 385 A:

AND I AM NOT AWARE OF CONFLICTS AS YOU HAVE STATED.

# 386 Q:

IN YOUR TEN YEARS AT SID YOU HAVE NEVER HAD A DISAGREEMENT WITH A DETECTIVE AT A CRIME SCENE AS TO HOW EVIDENCE SHOULD BE GATHERED?

# 387 MR. GOLDBERG:

THAT IS IRRELEVANT, YOUR HONOR.

# 388 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 389 DENNIS FUNG:

IN MY EXPERIENCE?

# 390 Q:

BY MR. SCHECK: YEAH.

# 391 A:

IN MY EXPERIENCE I WILL MAKE MY SUGGESTIONS --

# 392 THE COURT:

EXCUSE ME, MR. SCHECK. YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO STAND SOME PLACE WHERE YOU DON'T BLOCK THE JURORS.

# 393 MR. SCHECK:

OH, I'M VERY SORRY.

# 394 THE COURT:

THANK YOU.

# 395 DENNIS FUNG:

IN MY EXPERIENCE I WILL MAKE MY SUGGESTIONS TO THE DETECTIVE AND I HAVE ALWAYS HAD THE DETECTIVES COOPERATE WITH MY SUGGESTIONS.

# 396 Q:

BY MR. SCHECK: WELL, THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN IN THIS CASE, DID IT?

# 397 A:

HOW DO YOU MEAN?

# 398 Q:

WELL, YOU MADE A SUGGESTION TO DETECTIVE VANNATTER THAT YOU WERE GOING TO NEED MORE HELP AND HE DIDN'T TAKE IT?

# 399 MR. GOLDBERG:

I OBJECT. THAT MISSTATES --

# 400 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 401 MR. SCHECK:

MAYBE IT IS EASIER -- GIVE ME A MINUTE, YOUR HONOR. I THINK IT IS EASIER TO FIND IT IN MY BOOK.

# 402 (BRIEF PAUSE.)

# 403 Q:

BY MR. SCHECK: I SHOW YOU THAT DOCUMENT. HAVE YOU EVER SEEN THAT DOCUMENT BEFORE?

# 404 A:

YES.

# 405 Q:

AND THAT IS A DOCUMENT CONCERNING THE RELATIVE RESPONSIBILITIES OF THE INVESTIGATORS AND THE CRIMINALISTS?

# 406 A:

YES.

# 407 Q:

ALL RIGHT. AND IT INDICATES THAT THE INVESTIGATORS ARE SUPPOSED TO ADHERE TO THE CRIMINALIST'S ADVICE?

# 408 MR. GOLDBERG:

YOUR HONOR, MAY I OBJECT FOR A MOMENT? I DON'T THINK IT IS PROPER FOR COUNSEL TO READ FROM THE DOCUMENT.

# 409 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 410 Q:

BY MR. SCHECK: IS IT YOUR UNDERSTANDING THAT INVESTIGATORS ARE SUPPOSED TO ADHERE TO THE CRIMINALIST'S ADVICE AND DIRECTION RELATING TO THE GATHERING OF EVIDENCE?

# 411 A:

SPECIFICALLY RELATING TO THE GATHERING OF EVIDENCE?

# 412 Q:

YES.

# 413 A:

YES, YES.

# 414 Q:

ALL RIGHT. AND YOU ARE FAMILIAR WITH THE LOS ANGELES DEPARTMENT POLICE MANUAL, ARE YOU NOT?

# 415 A:

I HAVEN'T COMMITTED IT TO MEMORY.

# 416 Q:

ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH A -- ANY REQUIREMENT THAT IT IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF PEOPLE FROM SID TO INSTRUCT ALL OFFICERS IN THE DEPARTMENT REGARDING CURRENT METHODS OF COLLECTING, MARKING AND PRESERVING PHYSICAL EVIDENCE?

# 417 A:

I DON'T KNOW WHAT SECTION YOU ARE READING THAT FROM.

# 418 Q:

YES. BUT IT SOUND -- DOES THAT SOUND TO YOU LIKE YOUR RESPONSIBILITY?

# 419 MR. GOLDBERG:

YOUR HONOR --

# 420 Q:

BY MR. SCHECK: YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT YOUR RESPONSIBILITY IS?

# 421 MR. GOLDBERG:

THAT IS NOT RELEVANT.

# 422 THE COURT:

OVERRULED. YOU CAN ANSWER THE QUESTION.

# 423 DENNIS FUNG:

IT -- YES.

# 424 Q:

BY MR. SCHECK: NOW, YOU WERE SAYING TO US THAT YOU DIDN'T THINK IT WAS NECESSARY TO PUT UP YELLOW TAPE TO PROTECT THE BRONCO IN THE MORNING?

# 425 A:

YES.

# 426 Q:

BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T THINK THAT THERE WERE A LOT OF PEOPLE ON THE STREET IN THE MORNING?

# 427 A:

YES.

# 428 Q:

WELL, DIDN'T YOU ANTICIPATE THAT LATER IN THE DAY THERE WOULD BE PEOPLE GOING TO THAT SCENE?

# 429 A:

YES.

# 430 Q:

I MEAN, YOU KNEW AT THIS POINT THAT ONE OF THE VICTIMS IN THIS CASE WAS THE FORMER WIFE OF MR. SIMPSON?

# 431 MR. GOLDBERG:

VAGUE AS TO "THIS POINT."

# 432 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 433 Q:

BY MR. SCHECK: AT 7:15 WHEN YOU ARRIVED AT ROCKINGHAM YOU KNEW THAT ONE OF THE VICTIMS IN THIS CASE WAS MR. SIMPSON'S EX-WIFE?

# 434 A:

NO.

# 435 Q:

DID YOU KNOW THAT YOU WERE AT MR. SIMPSON'S HOUSE?

# 436 A:

I KNEW THAT WAS HIS RESIDENCE.

# 437 Q:

DID YOU KNOW THAT DETECTIVE VANNATTER REGARDED MR. SIMPSON AS A SUSPECT?

# 438 A:

I DON'T RECALL IF HE RELAYED THAT TO ME OR NOT.

# 439 Q:

HE MIGHT HAVE?

# 440 A:

HE MIGHT HAVE.

# 441 Q:

ALL RIGHT. AND IS IT YOUR TESTIMONY THAT YOU DID NOT ANTICIPATE THAT AS THE DAY WENT ON THAT PEOPLE WOULD BE GOING TO THAT ROCKINGHAM RESIDENCE AND WOULD BE AROUND THAT SCENE?

# 442 A:

I ANTICIPATED THAT THE BRONCO WOULD HAVE BEEN TOWED AWAY AND PUT INTO IMPOUND.

# 443 Q:

YOU WERE AT ROCKINGHAM FROM AROUND 7, WAS IT 15 OR 7:20?

# 444 A:

7:10.

# 445 Q:

7:10 IN THE MORNING UNTIL YOU LEFT AT WHAT TIME?

# 446 (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.)

# 447 Q:

AROUND 10:15, TEN O'CLOCK?

# 448 A:

I LEFT ROCKINGHAM AT APPROXIMATELY TEN O'CLOCK.

# 449 Q:

TEN O'CLOCK. SO YOU ARE THERE TWO HOURS AND 50 MINUTES? I THINK I HAVE GOT THAT ONE RIGHT.

# 450 A:

TWO HOURS AND 50 MINUTES, YES.

# 451 Q:

AND DURING THAT TWO HOURS AND 50 MINUTES WERE MORE PEOPLE ARRIVING AT THE SCENE AND WATCHING WHAT WAS GOING ON?

# 452 A:

NO.

# 453 Q:

IN THOSE THREE HOURS YOU STILL -- WHEN YOU LEFT THERE WAS NO YELLOW TAPE ON THAT -- SURROUNDING THAT BRONCO, RIGHT?

# 454 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

# 455 Q:

AND DIDN'T IT OCCUR TO YOU THAT THAT WAS NOT A SOUND PROCEDURE, AS YOU LEFT ROCKINGHAM?

# 456 A:

TWO OFFICERS WERE IN CHARGE OF PROTECTING THAT EVIDENCE AND YELLOW TAPE IS NOT A -- IS NOT AS GOOD A PROTECTION AS AN ACTUAL OFFICER.

# 457 Q:

ISN'T THE BEST POSSIBLE PROTECTION THE STANDARD PROTECTION, TO HAVE YELLOW TAPES AND OFFICERS?

# 458 A:

THAT IS ONE METHOD.

# 459 Q:

ISN'T IT TRUE THAT -- WITHDRAWN. WAS IT YOUR DECISION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT A YELLOW TAPE SHOULD BE PUT AROUND THAT BRONCO?

# 460 A:

NO.

# 461 Q:

WELL, AREN'T YOU THE PERSON THAT IS SUPPOSED TO ESSENTIALLY BE CALLING THE SHOTS WITH RESPECT TO HOW EVIDENCE IS GATHERED?

# 462 A:

WITH RESPECT TO HOW EVIDENCE IS GATHERED, YES.

# 463 Q:

WELL, ISN'T THE PROTECTION OF IMPORTANT ITEMS OF EVIDENCE WITHIN THAT PROVINCE, THE GATHERING OF EVIDENCE, PROTECTING IT WITH YELLOW TAPE?

# 464 A:

THAT -- IN MY OPINION THAT IS THE -- UNDER THE PURVIEW OF THE OFFICER IN CHARGE OF THE SCENE.

# 465 Q:

SO THAT IS NOT YOUR DECISION; THAT IS THE OFFICER'S DECISION?

# 466 A:

YES.

# 467 Q:

AND THAT IS WHY YOU DIDN'T QUESTION IT, BECAUSE IT WAS THEIR DECISION?

# 468 A:

IF I THOUGHT IT WAS NECESSARY, I WOULD HAVE SUGGESTED IT TO THEM.

# 469 Q:

YOU DIDN'T THINK IT WAS NECESSARY?

# 470 A:

NOT AT THAT TIME.

# 471 Q:

YOU DON'T THINK IT WAS A MISTAKE -- WELL, AT WHAT TIME? AT WHAT TIME WOULD IT HAVE BEEN APPROPRIATE TO PUT YELLOW TAPE AROUND THAT BRONCO?

# 472 A:

WHEN THERE WERE MORE PEOPLE AROUND THAN MAY HAVE -- WOULD HAVE BEEN MORE PREFERABLE.

# 473 Q:

ALL RIGHT. WHEN YOU LEFT, DID YOU MAKE THE SUGGESTION TO ANY OFFICERS AT THE SCENE, YOU KNOW, "GUYS, MAYBE YOU SHOULD PUT SOME YELLOW TAPE AROUND THAT BRONCO SOON"?

# 474 THE COURT:

ASSUMES FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE.

# 475 MR. SCHECK:

I'M ASKING, DID YOU?

# 476 THE COURT:

"GUYS."

# 477 MR. SCHECK:

WHAT?

# 478 THE COURT:

"GUYS."

# 479 MR. SCHECK:

I'M SORRY.

# 480 Q:

DID YOU, WHEN YOU LEFT, TELL ANY MALE OR FEMALE OFFICERS AT THE SCENE THAT PERHAPS IT WAS A GOOD IDEA TO PUT SOME YELLOW TAPE AROUND THAT BRONCO?

# 481 A:

I DID NOT STATE THAT, NO.

# 482 Q:

WASN'T THAT A MISTAKE?

# 483 A:

I DON'T -- I DON'T KNOW IF IT WAS A MISTAKE OR NOT.

# 484 Q:

AT 7:50, AFTER YOUR CONVERSATION WITH DETECTIVE VANNATTER, YOU SPOKE TO GREG MATHESON, DID YOU NOT?

# 485 A:

YES.

# 486 Q:

DID YOU -- GREG MATHESON IS A SUPERVISOR AT SID?

# 487 A:

YES.

# 488 Q:

AND YOU -- AT THAT TIME DID YOU EXPRESS CONCERN TO HIM THAT YOU HAD TWO CRIME SCENES?

# 489 A:

YES.

# 490 Q:

DID YOU EXPRESS CONCERN TO HIM THAT THE VICTIMS AT BUNDY, TO THE BEST OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE, HAD BEEN THERE SINCE THE EARLY MORNING HOURS AND YOU WERE NOW TALKING TO HIM AT 7:50 IN THE MORNING?

# 491 A:

I DID SPEAK TO HIM REGARDING THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF THE -- AS I KNEW THEM. I DON'T RECALL THE EXACT CONVERSATION.

# 492 Q:

DID YOU EXPRESS TO HIM A CONCERN THAT THE CRIMINALISTS MAY NOT GET TO THE BUNDY CRIME SCENE BEFORE THE CORONERS?

# 493 A:

I DON'T THINK I EXPRESSED THAT TO HIM, NO.

# 494 Q:

DID YOU EXPRESS TO HIM A CONCERN ABOUT USING AN ENTRY LEVEL PERSON WHO WAS JUST STARTING OUT TO DO THE WORK IN THIS CASE?

# 495 A:

I TOLD HIM WHO WAS WITH ME.

# 496 Q:

DID HE TELL -- DID YOU TELL HIM ANYTHING ABOUT THE LEVEL OF EXPERIENCE OF MISS MAZZOLA?

# 497 A:

I DON'T THINK I HAD TO.

# 498 Q:

AND THAT IS BECAUSE YOU THOUGHT HE HAD KNOWLEDGE OF MISS MAZZOLA'S EXPERIENCE LEVEL?

# 499 A:

YES.

# 500 Q:

DID YOU DISCUSS WITH HIM THE FACT THAT YOU HAD SUGGESTED TO DETECTIVE VANNATTER THAT MORE HELP WAS NEEDED?

# 501 A:

I DON'T KNOW IF I DISCUSSED THAT WITH HIM OR NOT.

# 502 Q:

DID YOU --

# 503 MR. GOLDBERG:

YOUR HONOR, I WILL -- I'M SORRY, COUNSEL. I WILL MAKE AN OBJECTION THAT THAT ASSUMES A FACT NOT IN EVIDENCE AND MOTION TO STRIKE THE WITNESS' TESTIMONY.

# 504 THE COURT:

MISSTATES THE TESTIMONY, BUT THE ANSWER WAS SUCH THAT -- THE ANSWER WILL STAND. PROCEED.

# 505 Q:

BY MR. SCHECK: DID YOU -- DID YOU SUGGEST TO GREG MATHESON THAT MORE HELP WAS NEEDED?

# 506 A:

I DON'T KNOW IF I SAID THAT OR NOT. I DON'T THINK I DID.

# 507 Q:

DID HE ASK YOU IF YOU NEEDED MORE HELP?

# 508 A:

HE MAY HAVE.

# 509 Q:

AND DID YOU SAY NO?

# 510 A:

AT THE TIME I DIDN'T -- I DIDN'T THINK I DID.

# 511 Q:

NOW --

# 512 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

# 513 Q:

BY MR. SCHECK: MAYBE WE COULD TURN NOW TO THE EVIDENCE THAT YOU COLLECTED AT ROCKINGHAM FOR A MINUTE. YOU INDICATED THAT THERE WERE A NUMBER OF RED BLOOD DROPS; IS THAT CORRECT, THAT YOU OBSERVED?

# 514 A:

YES.

# 515 Q:

NOW, DID YOU -- IN TERMS OF HOW YOU AND MISS MAZZOLA APPROACHED THIS, DID YOU PERFORM ANY WHAT IS KNOWN AS PHENOLPHTALEIN TESTS ON THOSE BLOOD DROPS?

# 516 MR. GOLDBERG:

I WILL OBJECT BASED UPON THE EARLIER RULINGS.

# 517 THE COURT:

OVERRULED. PROCEED.

# 518 Q:

BY MR. SCHECK: DID YOU?

# 519 A:

YES.

# 520 Q:

AND WAS THAT ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS YOU DID?

# 521 A:

IT WAS ONE OF THE THINGS WE DID.

# 522 Q:

ALL RIGHT. THEN IN TERMS OF APPROACHING THESE RED STAINS, THERE IS ONE THAT I THINK IS ITEM NO. 1, THE ONE ON THE DOOR; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 523 A:

YES.

# 524 Q:

AND BEFORE YOU SWATCHED THAT STAIN YOU DID A PRESUMPTIVE TEST ON IT?

# 525 A:

YES.

# 526 Q:

ALL RIGHT. AND BEFORE YOU TOOK A PICTURE OF THAT STAIN YOU DID A PRESUMPTIVE TEST ON IT?

# 527 A:

I'M NOT SURE WHICH ORDER THAT OCCURRED IN.

# 528 Q:

WELL, WITH RESPECT TO, UMM, THE NEXT -- THIS IS ITEM NO. 4, CORRECT, THAT IS A RED STAIN THAT YOU FOUND?

# 529 A:

YES.

# 530 Q:

ALL RIGHT. DID YOU FIRST GO OUT AND MEASURE THAT BEFORE YOU TOOK A PICTURE OF IT?

# 531 (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.)

# 532 Q:

MEASURE ITS LOCATION?

# 533 A:

I'M NOT SURE IF THE PICTURE WAS TAKEN FIRST OR THE MEASUREMENT WAS TAKEN FIRST.

# 534 Q:

DID YOU DO THE PRESUMPTIVE TEST ON NO. 4 BEFORE YOU TOOK THE PICTURE?

# 535 A:

TO THE BEST OF MY RECOLLECTION, YES.

# 536 Q:

ALL RIGHT. AND YOU DID THAT WITH ITEM NO. 5 AS WELL, FIRST THE PRESUMPTIVE TEST AND THEN THE PICTURE?

# 537 A:

YES.

# 538 Q:

AND ITEM NO. 6, I BELIEVE?

# 539 A:

YES.

# 540 Q:

AND ITEM NO. 7?

# 541 A:

TO THE BEST OF MY RECOLLECTION.

# 542 Q:

AND ITEM NO. 8?

# 543 A:

TO THE BEST OF MY RECOLLECTION, YES.

# 544 Q:

AND INCIDENTALLY, ON THE -- WHEN YOU WENT TO BUNDY AND YOU -- YOU AND MISS MAZZOLA WERE DEALING WITH ITEMS 47, 48, 49, 50 AND 52, DID YOU FOLLOW ESSENTIALLY THE SAME PROCESS?

# 545 A:

ESSENTIALLY, YES.

# 546 Q:

SO YOU DID THE PRESUMPTIVE TESTS ON THOSE ITEMS FIRST AND THEN THE PICTURES WERE TAKEN?

# 547 A:

I DON'T KNOW THE EXACT ORDER.

# 548 Q:

IT COULD HAVE HAPPENED THAT WAY?

# 549 A:

YES.

# 550 Q:

NOW, IN TERMS OF THESE RED STAINS THAT YOU FOUND, WOULD YOU AGREE THAT THE PATTERN OF RED STAINS THAT YOU FOUND WAS LEADING FROM THE RESIDENCE TO THE BRONCO OR THE BRONCO TO THE FRONT DOOR OF THE RESIDENCE?

# 551 A:

YES.

# 552 Q:

AND THERE IS -- WHY DON'T WE TRY USING THIS -- ONE OF THESE DIAGRAMS FIRST. LET ME START WITH -- LET ME START WITH ONE OF THE PROSECUTION'S BOARDS, IF I MIGHT.

# 553 THE COURT:

CERTAINLY.

# 554 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

# 555 (BRIEF PAUSE.)

# 556 MR. GOLDBERG:

YOUR HONOR, MAYBE I COULD HELP.

# 557 (BRIEF PAUSE.)

# 558 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. MR. SCHECK, THIS IS PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT WHICH?

# 559 MR. SCHECK:

YES. IT IS PEOPLE'S EXHIBIT NO. 169, YOUR HONOR.

# 560 THE COURT:

THANK YOU. PROCEED.

# 561 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

# 562 Q:

BY MR. SCHECK: OKAY. SORRY FOR THE DELAY. MR. FUNG, COULD YOU STEP DOWN HERE WITH ME FOR ONE MINUTE.

# 563 (WITNESS COMPLIES.)

# 564 Q:

NOW, YOU FOUND ITEM NO. 4, A RED STAIN, SOMEWHERE, UMM --

# 565 MR. GOLDBERG:

YOUR HONOR, COULD I JUST HAVE A CHANCE TO TALK TO COUNSEL FOR A SECOND?

# 566 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

# 567 MR. COCHRAN:

YOUR HONOR, THE JURORS ARE HAVING TROUBLE SEEING. IT IS TOO LOW. IT HAS BEEN CHANGED. HE NEEDS TO MOVE IT UP.

# 568 MR. GOLDBERG:

I'M SORRY, YOUR HONOR.

# 569 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT.

# 570 (BRIEF PAUSE.)

# 571 THE COURT:

MUCH BETTER. THANK YOU, MR. DOUGLAS.

# 572 Q:

BY MR. SCHECK: MR. FUNG, NOW YOU FOUND DROP NO. 4 ON ROCKINGHAM; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 573 A:

YES, I DID.

# 574 Q:

ALL RIGHT. UMM, AND YOU MEASURED THAT TO BE I GUESS 83 NINE (SIC) INCHES SOUTH OF THE SOUTH CURB, TWO FEET WEST OF THE SOUTH CURB?

# 575 A:

YES.

# 576 Q:

APPROXIMATELY WHERE I'M POINTING HERE ON THE DIAGRAM; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 577 A:

APPROXIMATELY HERE, (INDICATING).

# 578 Q:

THEN YOU FOUND A RED STAIN THAT YOU IDENTIFIED AS NO. 5. COULD YOU POINT APPROXIMATELY TO WHERE THAT IS ON THE DIAGRAM. IF IT HELPS --

# 579 A:

I'M REFERRING TO A SKETCH.

# 580 Q:

ALL RIGHT. IN FACT, IS IT THIS SKETCH THAT YOU HAVE RIGHT HERE, (INDICATING)?

# 581 A:

YES.

# 582 Q:

OKAY. THAT IS THE SKETCH THAT YOU FILLED OUT -- THIS WAS FILLED OUT AT THE TIME THIS WAS RECOVERED, CORRECT?

# 583 A:

YES.

# 584 Q:

ALL RIGHT. IF YOU WANT TO COME OVER YOU CAN LOOK AT MY SKETCH AND I WILL JUST HOLD IT OUT FOR YOU.

# 585 A:

APPROXIMATELY HERE, (INDICATING).

# 586 Q:

APPROXIMATELY HERE? THAT IS IN FRONT OF THE GATE, RIGHT?

# 587 A:

YES.

# 588 Q:

ALL RIGHT. THEN YOU FOUND DROP NO. 6. COULD YOU SHOW US WHERE THAT IS?

# 589 A:

(INDICATING).

# 590 Q:

WHICH IS --

# 591 A:

APPROXIMATE.

# 592 Q:

APPROXIMATELY. NOW, WOULD YOU NOT AGREE THAT THERE WERE ABOUT FOUR OR FIVE FEET BETWEEN DROPS NO. 4 AND 5?

# 593 A:

APPROXIMATELY.

# 594 Q:

ALL RIGHT. AND IF ONE WERE TO START ON A LINE TO THE PLACE THAT I'M POINTING HERE, WHAT WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THAT IN TERMS OF THE GATE? WHAT DIRECTION WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THAT AS BEING ON THIS DIAGRAM? THE NORTHWEST SIDE OF THE GATE?

# 595 A:

THIS IS NORTHWEST -- I DON'T UNDERSTAND.

# 596 Q:

NORTHWEST IS AS IT IS DEPICTED ON THIS DIAGRAM, I GUESS?

# 597 A:

AND YOU ARE REFERRING TO THE FENCE OR THE GATE?

# 598 Q:

JUST THE GATE?

# 599 A:

THE GATE ITSELF?

# 600 Q:

ON THIS LINE, YEAH. IF ONE WERE TO BASICALLY --

# 601 A:

RIGHT HERE -- RIGHT HERE WOULD BE THE NORTH END OF THE GATE, (INDICATING).

# 602 Q:

OKAY. FROM THE NORTH END OF THE GATE, IF ONE WERE TO WALK IN A LINE TO THE AREA WHERE THERE IS -- THE GARAGE IS DEPICTED, OKAY, YOU SEE WHAT I'M SAYING?

# 603 A:

YOU ARE SAYING FROM HERE, (INDICATING), TO HERE, (INDICATING)?

# 604 Q:

NO, FROM HERE TO THE PATHWAY, (INDICATING).

# 605 A:

FROM HERE TO HERE, (INDICATING)?

# 606 Q:

THAT'S RIGHT. IF YOU WERE TO DRAW A LINE, WALK ON A LINE FROM THAT ENTRYWAY TO THE GATE DIRECTLY TO THE PATHWAY, OKAY, HOW MANY FEET WOULD YOU ESTIMATE THAT ROUGHLY TO BE?

# 607 A:

I DON'T RECALL THE DIMENSIONS. I WOULD HAVE TO SEE SOMETHING.

# 608 Q:

HAS DETECTIVE VANNATTER EVER DISCUSSED A THEORY WITH YOU THAT MR. SIMPSON CAME HOME IN THIS CASE AND WENT -- OPENED THE GATE, ALL RIGHT, AND THEN WALKED ALONG THE SOUTH PATHWAY TO THE AREA WHERE THE GLOVE WAS RECOVERED?

# 609 MR. GOLDBERG:

YOUR HONOR, IT IS IRRELEVANT AND IT IS ALSO HEARSAY.

# 610 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 611 Q:

BY MR. SCHECK: WELL, JUST GOING ON A LINE, ALL RIGHT, FROM WHERE YOU FOUND DROP NO. 6, OKAY, TO THE SOUTH PATHWAY, RIGHT --

# 612 A:

YES.

# 613 Q:

-- YOU DIDN'T FIND -- THAT IS ABOUT HOW MANY FEET WOULD YOU ESTIMATE?

# 614 A:

I TOLD YOU I DON'T -- I COULDN'T GIVE YOU AN ESTIMATE.

# 615 Q:

WELL, THE DISTANCE FROM THE GATE TO WHERE THE GLOVE WAS RECOVERED WAS APPROXIMATELY 250 FEET?

# 616 A:

FROM THE GATE TO THE GLOVE?

# 617 Q:

YEAH.

# 618 A:

I -- I WILL HAVE TO TAKE YOUR WORD FOR IT.

# 619 THE COURT:

ARE YOU TESTIFYING, MR. SCHECK?

# 620 MR. SCHECK:

I ASKED HIM THAT QUESTION.

# 621 THE COURT:

HE SAID I WILL HAVE TO TAKE WHAT YOU SAY.

# 622 Q:

BY MR. SCHECK: TELL YOU WHAT, LET'S TRY IT THIS WAY: I WOULD LIKE TO MARK THIS DOCUMENT AS PEOPLE'S -- PEOPLE'S -- AS DEFENSE NEXT IN ORDER.

# 623 THE COURT:

1072.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (5)

Dennis Fung

I BELIEVE HE SAID SOMETHING TO THE EFFECT THAT HE PREFERRED THAT ONE TEAM HANDLE BOTH CRIME SCENES SO THAT THE CHAIN OF CUSTODY WOULD NOT BE MESSED UP.

Vannatter's stated reason for denying extra help was protecting chain of custody — the very thing the defense argued was compromised. The irony is the centerpiece of Scheck's cross.

Dennis Fung

IF THERE IS AN ENTRY LEVEL PERSON OR A PERSON JUST STARTING OUT, I WOULD WATCH THEM MORE CLOSELY THAN SOMEONE WHO IS EXPERIENCED.

Fung concedes that working with Mazzola inherently created a greater risk of mistakes — a key admission undermining the integrity of evidence collection in the case.

Dennis Fung

AT THAT TIME IN THE MORNING THERE WAS VIRTUALLY NOBODY OUT IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD AND IT WAS VERY QUIET AND YELLOW TAPE MAY HAVE ATTRACTED EVEN MORE PEOPLE, SO THAT -- THE USE OF IT WASN'T NECESSARY.

Fung's justification that yellow tape would have drawn more attention to the Bronco was a weak defense that Scheck immediately turned against him.

Lance A. Ito

THERE HAVE BEEN ROOKIES OF THE YEAR WHO HAVE BEEN MVP'S.

Judicial interjection cutting off Scheck's persistent effort to label Mazzola a 'rookie,' illustrating the friction over characterizing her experience and briefly breaking tension.

Barry Scheck

WHO IS DARRYL GATES, INCIDENTALLY? I AM NOT FROM AROUND HERE.

Rare self-deprecating aside from Scheck while establishing that even LAPD's own chief had issued directives confirming criminalists' authority over evidence gathering procedures.

Evidence (9)

People's 169

Diagram of the Rockingham crime scene showing driveway, gate, Bronco position, and blood drop locations

Used by Scheck to have Fung identify approximate locations of blood drops 4, 5, and 6; Cochran noted jurors couldn't see it until it was repositioned

Defense 1072

Document marked at end of session; contents not established in transcript excerpt

Marked as next defense exhibit in order

Informal

Vehicle checklist form for the Bronco search, listing Andrea Mazzola as officer in charge

Discussed to challenge Fung's claim that Mazzola's OIC designation was only a pre-scene artifact — she was still listed after Fung decided to take lead

Informal

Rockingham crime scene checklist with Mazzola listed as officer in charge, filled out before arrival

Discussed

Informal

Memo by former LAPD Chief Darryl Gates regarding criminalists' authority over evidence gathering at scenes

Referenced verbally; Fung acknowledged awareness of such a document

Informal

LAPD Manual provision on SID responsibility to instruct officers on evidence collection methods

Referenced verbally; Fung confirmed it reflected his understanding of his duties

+ 3 more

Notable Exchanges (5)

Barry Scheck•Dennis Fung

Scheck spent extended time forcing Fung to characterize Mazzola's experience level, after Fung rejected 'trainee,' 'novice,' and 'rookie.' The judge suggested 'entry level' as acceptable, which Fung finally accepted. The semantic fight itself illustrated the stakes.

strategic

Barry Scheck•Dennis Fung

Fung revealed that Vannatter's justification for keeping one team at both scenes was chain of custody. Scheck had spent the entire cross arguing that the chain of custody was compromised — making Vannatter's stated rationale doubly damaging.

revealing

Barry Scheck•Dennis Fung

Scheck pressed Fung on why no yellow tape was placed around the Bronco. Fung's answer — that tape might attract more people — was turned against him when Scheck pointed out Fung made no suggestion to officers when he left.

revealing

Lance A. Ito•Barry Scheck

After Scheck asked whether Fung told 'guys' to put up yellow tape, Ito interrupted simply saying 'Guys.' Scheck apologized and rephrased to 'male or female officers.'

light

Johnnie Cochran•Lance A. Ito

During the diagram display, Cochran interjected that jurors couldn't see People's 169 because it was too low. It was repositioned before Fung's testimony on blood drop locations could continue.

procedural

Light Moments (4)

Lance A. Ito

When Scheck tried to get Fung to call Mazzola a 'rookie,' Ito interjected: 'THERE HAVE BEEN ROOKIES OF THE YEAR WHO HAVE BEEN MVP'S.'

Barry Scheck

Scheck asked who Darryl Gates was and added 'I AM NOT FROM AROUND HERE,' a wry acknowledgment of his New York outsider status while discussing an LAPD institutional matter.

Lance A. Ito

Mid-session, Ito paused to check in on the court reporter: 'MADAM COURT REPORTER, WHAT IS YOUR STATUS? CAN YOU FINISH THE HOUR?' She confirmed she was fine.

Lance A. Ito

Ito objected to Scheck's use of 'guys' in a question, saying only the word 'Guys.' Scheck said 'What?' before understanding and rephrasing.

Credibility Attacks (3)

⚔ Dennis Fung

competence and procedure challenge

Scheck systematically challenged Fung's judgment in not requesting additional criminalist help, not disclosing Mazzola's inexperience to Vannatter, and not securing the Bronco with yellow tape — arguing these failures elevated the risk of evidence contamination or mishandling in a double-homicide case.

⚔ Dennis Fung

internal contradiction

Fung claimed Mazzola's OIC designation on the Rockingham checklist was only because it was filled out pre-scene. Scheck showed she was also listed as OIC on the vehicle checklist — which was prepared after Fung had already decided to take the lead role himself.

⚔ Dennis Fung

admission against interest

Fung admitted that working with an entry-level person created 'a greater chance of mistakes' and that he would supervise her more closely than an experienced criminalist — directly conceding the risk Scheck argued pervaded the entire evidence collection process.

Witness Demeanor

Fung was guarded and word-precise throughout, frequently qualifying answers with 'I don't recall,' 'something to that effect,' or 'to the best of my recollection'

He resisted all characterizations of Mazzola as 'trainee,' 'novice,' or 'rookie' before accepting 'entry level' only after the judge suggested the term

When Scheck's questions became compound, Fung asked to slow down: 'YOU HAVE GOT A LOT OF FACTORS IN THERE. COULD WE GO THROUGH THEM ONE AT A TIME?'

Fung quietly corrected Scheck's timeline error — '7:10' not '7:15 or 7:20' — showing careful attention to detail under sustained pressure

Fung corrected himself mid-answer about Matheson's tense: 'YES, HE WAS. OR HE IS.' — a small sign of nerves

Objections

25 objections (10 sustained, 12 overruled)

Proceeding 5604 • 623 utterances • Prosecution witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103