📄 Direct examination of Mark Roesler — Thursday, February 6, 1997
Address:
C:\DEPT103\CIVIL\1997\FEB\6\DIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-MARK-ROE.DOC
TRIAL
▲ Day 55 of 57

Direct examination of Mark Roesler

Witness: Mark Roesler
Examiner: Robert Baker
Called by: Defense • Date: Thursday, February 6, 1997 • Utterances: 478
Mark Roesler, chairman and CEO of CMG Worldwide — a firm that manages the name and likeness rights of celebrities including Elvis, Marilyn Monroe, and Babe Ruth — testified as a plaintiffs' expert witness on the value of O.J. Simpson's right of publicity. He walked the jury through seven categories of potential earnings (autographs, product licensing, endorsements, media, books/tapes, movies, and owned items), concluding that Simpson could earn $2–3 million per year for the rest of his life, with a present value of approximately $25 million. Key evidence included Simpson's own trademark applications, two lawsuits Simpson filed asserting the value of his name and likeness, and autograph price data showing his signature tripled in value after the murders.
1 THE CLERK:

Counsel, can I get those two exhibits before we move on. (Mr. Gelblum hands exhibits to the clerk.)

MARK ROESLER, called as a witness on behalf of Plaintiffs, was duly sworn and testified as follows:

2 THE CLERK:

You do solemnly swear that the testimony you may give in the cause now pending before this court shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God~?

3 MARK ROESLER:

I do.

4 THE CLERK:

Please be seated. Sir, would you please state and spell your name for the record.

5 MARK ROESLER:

My name is Mark Roesler, R-O-E-S-L-E-R, first name M-A-R-K.

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. GELBLUM:

6 Q:

Morning, Mr. Roesler.

7 A:

Morning.

8 Q:

What's your occupation, sir?

9 A:

I'm chairman and CEO of a company called CMG Worldwide.

10 Q:

And what is the business of CMG Worldwide?

11 A:

We represent various sports and entertainment personalities.

12 Q:

And what do you do for them?

13 A:

We do marketing, licensing, management work for them.

14 Q:

Can you briefly tell the jury about your education since college.

15 A:

I graduated from -- from college in 1974, and then -- I'm sorry, 1978 -- and I went to Indiana University School of Law. And I also went to Indiana University Graduate School of Business, where I received both a masters in business administration and a juris doctorate degree.

16 Q:

What year was that?

17 A:

That was -- I graduated in 1981 from both schools.

18 Q:

And upon graduation, what did you do?

19 A:

Upon graduation, I immediately went to work for a company by the name of Curtis Publishing Company. And they were in the business of -- of publishing a magazine called the Saturday Evening Post. And that magazine owned about 350 copyrighted illustrations of Norman Rockwell. Norman Rockwell had died a few years earlier, and we began working with his estate, and I started representing -- working with his estate in 1981. And shortly thereafter, we started representing outside clients, and I was put in charge of that. And our first client in 1981 was the Elvis Preseley estate.

20 Q:

And did you represent the Elvis Presely estate?

21 A:

I represented the Elvis Presely estate from 1981 through 1987.

22 Q:

And since 1981, have you represented both living celebrities and estates of dead celebrities?

23 A:

Yes, sir I have.

24 Q:

As a general matter, what kinds of things do you do for your clients?

25 A:

Well, like you say, we represent both living and deceased clients. Where we have become the biggest company in the business of representing famous deceased people. And our specialty is really representing the famous personalities of the twentieth century. Obviously, some of those are deceased. In the sports area, we represent mostly Hall-of-Fame-type athletes, and the baseball and some in the football area.

26 Q:

Can you give us some examples?

27 A:

In the baseball area, we represent people like Jim Palmer, Bob Eller (phonetic), Whitey Kilmer (phonetic), all Hall of Famers. Many of the famous deceased baseball players, from Babe Ruth, Lou Gherig, Ty Cobb, people like that. In the football area, we represent people like Vince Lombardi and Jim Thorpe. Other Hall of Fame living clients we represent are people like Johnnie Unitas. And we represent some boxing people, like Floyd Patterson, that are Hall of Fame boxers that are retired; deceased boxers like Jack Dempsey, Joe Lewis, people like that.

28 Q:

Do you also represent celebrities outside the sports field?

29 A:

Yes, yes, we do. We represent a number of entertainment industry clients. We represent James Dean, Marilyn Monroe, Humphrey Bogart, people like that. About probably 40 or 50 entertainment-type clients.

30 Q:

Have you represented the estate of Malcolm X?

31 A:

Yes, sir, I have, and still do.

32 Q:

So, a wide variety of people?

33 A:

Yes.

34 Q:

Is -- the common thread is fame; is that correct?

35 A:

That's correct. Fame in the twentieth century.

36 Q:

What do you do for those clients, as a general matter?

37 A:

As a general matter, we negotiate contracts that utilize their -- their image, their name, or their likeness. And obviously, generally, that's for a fee. And we also secure whatever legal protection is necessary to see that -- to see that that continues into the future.

38 Q:

Okay. And what is the overall goal of the services you render for these clients?

39 A:

Well, typically, the overall goal is to see that the assets are preserved and the asset is made as valuable as possible, and generally, that that value obviously results, in many cases, substantial sums of money. But in order to make it valuable, it's also necessary to do whatever's necessary to protect it, both in terms of --of negotiating specific contracts, narrow parameters, securing trademark production, things of that nature, guarding against unauthorized uses.

40 Q:

Have you negotiated contracts for your clients in the area of appearances and autograph shows?

41 A:

Yes.

42 Q:

Merchandising?

43 A:

Yes, sir.

44 Q:

Book deals?

45 A:

Yes, sir.

46 Q:

Media uses?

47 A:

Yes, sir.

48 Q:

The whole gamut of ways to exploit a celebrity's name and likeness?

49 A:

Yes, sir.

50 Q:

Were you asked oh, do your services just relate to exploiting name and likeness within the United States?

51 A:

No, sir. I mean, typically, the clients we represent typically have international name. Many of our clients -- we do more business outside the United States than we do inside the United States.

52 Q:

Can you give me an example of that?

53 A:

Well, one example in the sports area, we have a very successful chain of Babe Ruth restaurants, and the first one is -- has been opened. It's the largest restaurant in England, seats almost 500 people. That's in London. Another one is scheduled to open in Barcelona, and there's none of those in the United States. Someone like a James Dean or Marilyn Monroe, most of our business is outside the United States.

54 Q:

All right. Now, take this down. (Indicating to blow-up entitled Summary of Orenthal Simpson's Financial Condition as of December 31, 1996, Revised 1-31-97. Were you asked to perform some services in this litigation, sir?

55 A:

Yes, sir, I was.

56 Q:

What were you asked to do?

57 A:

I was asked to value the name and likeness of Mr. Simpson once a liability verdict was rendered in the civil action.

58 Q:

Okay. Did you perform an analysis of that?

59 A:

Yes, I did.

60 Q:

Did you reach a conclusion?

61 A:

Yes, I did.

62 Q:

What was your conclusion?

63 A:

Well, my conclusion was that Mr. Simpson had -- had value; that that could vary from year to year; but in general, the average value would be in the two- to three-million-dollar-per-year range.

64 Q:

And that would be -- would that be for the rest of his life?

65 A:

Yes, sir, it would be.

66 Q:

And you've told us that you represent a number of estates of deceased clients. Would Mr. Simpson's name and likeness also have some value after his death?

67 A:

Yes, it would. The State of California has a special statute called Section 990, and Section 990 specifically provides for the right of publicity as -- as this area's called, the right of someone to protect their name and likeness. It provides for that to extend for 50 years. I might say it -- at this point. That it doesn't necessarily end after 50 years, because we do have clients -- for example, Babe Ruth, who's been dead for 50 years this year, I believe, but because we secured a trademark protection for his name or his likeness, it's able to continue beyond that 50 years.

68 Q:

What kind of sums were you able to obtain for somebody like Babe Ruth, who's been dead for 50 years?

69 MR. BAKER:

Objection. Relevancy.

70 THE COURT:

Overruled.

71 A:

Someone like Babe Ruth brings in over a million dollars a year.

72 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) Now, I think you were sitting here when Mr. Freeman testified?

73 A:

Yes, I was.

74 Q:

He testified that, based on your opinion and reducing your numbers down to the present value, that a reasonable business person or investor today would pay approximately $25 million for the exclusive right to exploit Mr. Simpson's name and likeness for the rest of his life. Do you agree with that?

75 MR. BAKER:

I object to that, Your Honor. It calls for speculation. There's no foundation.

76 THE COURT:

Overruled.

77 A:

It was -- it was my understanding that he said that someone would pay $25 million for the -- for the entire right of publicity, which would include both during his lifetime and after his lifetime.

78 Q:

In fact, I believe you testified just during his lifetime.

79 A:

Okay.

80 Q:

Do you consider that a reasonable number?

81 A:

I consider that a reasonable number.

82 Q:

Okay. And we'll get into a little more detail later, but do you have experience where somebody, in fact, sells on a current basis, the right to use some celebrity's name and likeness in a limited area for a certain time in the future?

83 A:

Yes, I do.

84 Q:

Okay. Did you prepare a report in connection with your services here?

85 A:

Yes, sir, I did.

86 Q:

Do you have a copy of it handy?

87 A:

Yes, in my briefcase.

88 Q:

All right. If you'll get that out.

89 (The witness complies.)
90 MR. GELBLUM:

This is Exhibit 752.

91 (The instrument herein referred to as Report by Mark Roesler with Exhibits regarding value of defendant's name and likeness was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 752.)
92 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) In preparing that report, Mr. Roesler, did you review any documents?

93 A:

Yes, I did.

94 Q:

What did you review?

95 A:

I reviewed basically five different categories of items. The first category was a trademark search of the various trademarks that Mr. Simpson has tried -- is trying to secure for both his name and his likeness. The second segment were the two lawsuits that Mr. Simpson filed against several dozen companies that were using his name or likeness without his authorization. The third area was various current market information on the value of Mr. Simpson's -- both his autograph and his product. The fourth area were 20 contracts that Mr. Simpson has entered into for his name and likeness. Nineteen of them were after June of 1994. And the fifth area was the financial documents that were supplied to us by Mr. Simpson.

96 Q:

Now, in reaching your conclusion that Mr. Simpson's name and likeness, as you described it -- and we'll go through the individual categories that make up that total -- come to about two to three million dollars a year, did you make any assumptions as to how that name and likeness would be exploited?

97 A:

Yes, I did.

98 Q:

What assumptions did you make?

99 A:

Well, I made -- I made assumptions Mr. Simpson would use his reasonable or best efforts to -- to exploit his name and likeness.

100 Q:

Okay. Did you assume anything about whether he would seek to protect his name and likeness?

101 A:

Well, I reviewed the facts that Mr. Simpson had secured --was in the process of securing trademark protection for his name and likeness, and also reviewed the facts that he had filed several lawsuits against various people that were using his -- his name and likeness. So I reached the conclusion that he would continue to -- to proceed in that manner.

102 Q:

Okay. Now, did you -- did you search the public records for information regarding Mr. Simpson's trademarks?

103 A:

Yes, sir, I did.

104 Q:

And do you have a summary of what that search revealed?

105 A:

Yes, I do.

106 MR. GELBLUM:

Mark that next in order as 2416.

107 (The instrument herein referred to as Roesler Summary of Search was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 2416.)
108 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) And what did that search reveal?

109 MR. BAKER:

I object, Your Honor, because that assumes that they were granted.

110 MR. GELBLUM:

He's applying for it; he's seeking to protect it.

111 THE COURT:

It's his application. This is the basis of this witness's opinion. Overruled for that purpose.

112 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) How many different trademarks did Mr. Simpson apply for, according to the public record you found?

113 A:

Well, Mr. Simpson has applied for six different trademarks that involve his name or his likeness. And some of them involve a combination of that. And those six different trademarks were filed in 20 different classes; and those were all filed since 1994 and since -- after June of 1994. Typically, it takes anywhere from two to four years for a trademark application to mature to an actual registration. But the -- in each application, Mr. Simpson -- either there's two different -- there's two different forms that you can use, either what's called an intent to use or an actual use, when you file these applications. For three of the applications, he filed what's called an actual use, saying he's already had use in those categories, and he listed 90 different goods that he had -- that he had actual use on. And on the intent-to-use applications, on the remaining ones, he listed his intention to -- to do as many over 500 different -- 500 goods. Some of those goods were the same. In the different classes, there were over 100 different types of goods that he indicated that he intended to use on that. And those applications are filed under penalty of perjury.

114 Q:

And what are the six -- I think you said there are six different marks applied for?

115 A:

Yes, sir.

116 Q:

What are those marks?

117 A:

The first mark is Team O.J. Justice For All. The second mark is The Juice. The third mark is O.J. Simpson with an image of Mr. Simpson.

118 Q:

An image meaning a picture?

119 A:

A likeness of Mr. Simpson. A fourth mark is just O.J. Simpson. The fifth mark is the -- just Juice. And the sixth mark is O.J.

120 Q:

Okay. And what are some of the categories of goods Mr. Simpson is seeking trademarks on under those names?

121 A:

Well, some of those -- some of those products are -- some of those classes of goods, rather, are metal goods, jewelry, paper goods, and printed matter.

122 Q:

Back up a little from the microphone, Mr. Roesler.

123 A:

Metal goods, jewelry, paper goods and printed matter, clothing, and toys, and sporting goods were the classes in the first mark that he filed for. And within those goods or services, it -- you can list various items. For example, in class 25, his clothing, and it lists various types of clothing items that you can specify.

124 Q:

Okay. How does the scope of these trademark applications compare to the clients that you represent?

125 A:

It's very extensive.

126 Q:

And is 24 -- is this a typical procedure for somebody seeking to exploit their name and likeness, applying for trademarks?

127 A:

Somewhat typical. A trademark -- a trademark will give you additional legal protection. Someone that's famous has a protectable right of publicity.

128 MR. PETROCELLI:

Move back, Mr. Roesler; push the mike down a little. There you go.

129 A:

(Continuing.) So there is a protectable right of publicity that an individual has. A trademark can give you additional protection that allows you to sometimes more easily enforce those rights. The trademarks can be expensive to -- to secure, so often, it's balanced against how much you want to spend to protect your name or your likeness with these trademarks, which is really just additional protection and gives you additional scope. So typically, the clients of ours that secure trademark protection are the ones that generate more significant sums of money on an annual basis.

130 Q:

And how many classes of goods did you say Mr. Simpson had applied for protection on?

131 A:

Twenty different classes of goods.

132 Q:

Covering how many different goods, how many different items?

133 A:

Well, collectively, there were -- he had listed over 500 items, 500 types of goods.

134 Q:

Okay. Now, I think another thing you mentioned that you do for your clients is to seek to protect the value and protect the value of the name and likeness out there by policing the market; is that right?

135 A:

That's correct.

136 Q:

And have you seen evidence that Mr. Simpson has attempted to do that?

137 A:

Yes, I have.

138 Q:

And you mentioned two lawsuits he had filed?

139 A:

Yes.

140 Q:

All right. I'm going to put in front of you what I'll mark as 2417 and 2418.

141 MR. GELBLUM:

2417 is a lawsuit in the Superior Court of the State of California for the County of Los Angeles: O.J. Simpson, Orenthal Productions, Inc. versus Choi, C-H-O-I and a couple other pages of caption, defendants. And the second is a another lawsuit filed also in the Superior Court of Los Angeles County, O.J. Simpson and Orenthal Productions -- and I apologize, Your Honor: I picked up two copies of the same lawsuit. Do you have the other lawsuit with you, sir?

142 MARK ROESLER:

No, no, I don't.

143 MR. GELBLUM:

All right. I'll have to get that after the break. I'll just put the one in front of you, 2417.

144 (The instrument herein referred to as Copy of complaint in Simpson V. Choi was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 2417.)
145 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) Have you reviewed that complaint, as well as the other complaint?

146 A:

Yes, I did.

147 Q:

As a general matter, what -- First of all, when was that complaint filed? You see a file date stamp?

148 A:

The complaint was filed -- it appears to have been filed on September 20 of 1995.

149 Q:

Okay. And you reviewed that complaint?

150 A:

Yes, sir, I did.

151 Q:

And as a general matter, what does it seek? What relief does it seek?

152 A:

Well, it's a complaint for six different causes of action, first being a commercial misappropriation of his likeness; the second being invasion of privacy; the third being false light; the fourth being trademark infringement; the fifth being unfair competition; and the sixth, both interference with prospective economic advantage.

153 Q:

And are there any statements in that complaint, sir, regarding the plaintiff's characterization of the value of his name and likeness?

154 MR. BAKER:

Objection. Irrelevant, Your Honor.

155 THE COURT:

Overruled.

156 A:

Well, in this particular complaint, I have it in my opinion, here -- probably be easier to read it out of my opinion -- but basically, he makes the comments that the statements that he's used, the marks in connection with the variety of goods and services continually for many years, and has exclusively licensed and registered the marks to Orenthal Productions Inc. from any types of goods or services over his career consumers have come to.

157 THE REPORTER:

Can you repeat that please, over his . . .

158 MARK ROESLER:

Over his career consumers have come to recognize and identify goods associated with the marks as meaning that these goods and services either originated with O.J. Simpson or were endorsed or sponsored by him.

159 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) Would you read paragraph 46. This is a complaint filed on behalf of Mr. Simpson.

160 MR. BAKER:

I'd object to reading that.

161 THE COURT:

Overruled.

162 A:

Number 46 says that Plaintiff O.J. Simpson is perhaps one of the most famous people in the world today. Mr. Simpson's name and notoriety have created huge, lucrative markets to people such as the defendants herein to sell unauthorized and unlicensed merchandise carrying his name, photograph, and/or likeness, including clothing, posters, cards, toys, souvenirs and other paraphernalia.

KEY QUOTE
163 MR. GELBLUM:

Okay. And I have located the other complaint, which we'll mark as 2418. And that's captioned O.J. Simpson, Orenthal Productions, versus John Doe, et cetera, numerous other defendants.

164 (The instrument herein referred to as Copy of Complaint filed in State of California, Superior Court for the County of Los Angeles, captioned O.J. Simpson, Orenthal Productions, versus John Doe, et cetera, numerous other defendants, was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 2418.)
165 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) Is Exhibit 2418 the other complaint that you reviewed, sir?

166 A:

Yes, sir, it is.

167 Q:

Is that complaint seeking similar relief?

168 A:

Yes, sir, it does.

169 Q:

All right. Now, from the documents that you've reviewed, sir, can you tell whether prior to the murders of June 12, 1994, Mr. Simpson made a practice of licensing his name and likeness?

170 A:

Certainly from the documents, he confirms that he has.

171 Q:

Okay. And from the documents reviewed, after the murders, did he license his name and likeness?

172 A:

Yes, he did.

173 Q:

And did you review a number of contracts that reflect that?

174 A:

Yes, I did.

175 Q:

Did you create a summary of the contracts you reviewed?

176 A:

Yes, I did.

177 MR. GELBLUM:

I'd like to mark that next as 2419.

178 THE CLERK:

2419.

179 (The instrument herein referred to as Summary was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 2419.)
180 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) Do you have a copy of that with you?

181 A:

Yes, sir, I do.

182 Q:

Let me just put the first page up on the Elmo, just so the jury can see what you're talking about. (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 2419 displayed on the Elmo screen.)

183 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) Briefly describe what that document is.

184 A:

Well, the entire -- the entire document is a summary of the contracts that were provided to us since June of 1994. All 20 of them, with the exception of the first one right there, which was entered into on June 1 of '94, happened after the -- the date of the murders.

185 Q:

Okay. And you have briefly summarized each contract; is that right?

186 A:

Yes, I have.

187 Q:

Okay. Do you know for a fact whether the sums paid -- called for in the contracts were actually paid to Mr. Simpson?

188 A:

I don't know, no. I don't know for certain.

189 Q:

When the jury reviews that, what they're looking at is your summary of the contract terms; is that right?

190 A:

That's correct.

191 Q:

Okay.

192 MR. GELBLUM:

This would be a good time.

193 THE COURT:

Okay, 1:30, ladies and gentlemen. Don't talk about the case. Don't form or express an opinion.

194 (At 12:00 noon, a luncheon recess was taken until 1:30 p.m. of the same day.)
195 (REGINA D. CHAVEZ, OFFICIAL REPORTER)
196 (Jurors resume their respective seats.)
197 THE COURT:

You may resume.

198 MR. GELBLUM:

Thank you, Your Honor.

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. GELBLUM: (continued)

199 Q:

The last exhibit we marked and had up on the Elmo before the break was 2419 which was a summary of contracts. I'm not going to mark these because they're voluminous. Are these the contracts that you looked at that you summarized on 2419?

200 A:

Yes, they are.

201 Q:

Okay. Now, let's get into the specific categories that make up your opinion about the total value of Mr. Simpson's name and likeness. How many different areas were there that you looked at?

202 A:

I basically divided them up into seven different areas.

203 Q:

You tell us what those seven areas were, then we'll go through them one at a time.

204 A:

Yes. The first area -- the first area was the autograph area. The second area was the product or merchandise memorabilia area. The third area was the endorsement or advertising area. The fourth were media type uses. The fifth area was book or audiotapes. The sixth area was the movie area. And then last, was items -- actual items that were owned by Mr. Simpson.

205 Q:

Okay. Let's start with the autographs. Is there information that is generally available in the autograph industry as to the value of different celebrities' autographs?

206 A:

Yes, there is.

207 Q:

And are there publications that publish that information on a regular basis?

208 A:

Yes, there is.

209 Q:

Is there a magazine called Tuff Stuff, T-u-f-f S-t-u-f-f, that's one of the leading standard publications?

210 A:

Yes.

211 Q:

How often is that published?

212 A:

That's published on a monthly basis.

213 Q:

You have the most rent edition?

214 A:

Yes, I do.

215 Q:

Can we take a look at it.

216 MR. BAKER:

Objection, 2034.

217 THE COURT:

Overruled. I don't understand that objection.

218 MR. BAKER:

I took his deposition and any information that came in that --

219 THE COURT:

Is that a reference source?

220 MARK ROESLER:

Yes, sir, it is.

221 THE COURT:

Overruled.

222 (BY MR. GELBLUM) All right. If you could display that for the jury so we can see what it is we're talking about. (Witness complies.)
223 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) Is that something available in book stores and news stands?

224 A:

Yes. This was purchased at a news stand here in Santa Monica.

225 Q:

Is that used and relied upon by people in your business?

226 A:

Yes, sir, it is.

227 Q:

Okay. Does that display in a chart form and a monthly basis the going price for different celebrities' autographs?

228 A:

Yes, it does.

229 Q:

Okay. Is Mr. Simpson listed in there?

230 A:

Yes. Basically every sports celebrity of the -- basically of the 20th Century is listed on here, that has some fame.

231 Q:

Is there just one price for each celebrity?

232 A:

No. There's seven, generally, different prices depending upon what the autograph is affixed to.

233 Q:

Is there a standard format for an autograph that's used for comparison purposes for different sports and different celebrities?

234 A:

Basically, an 8 by 10 photograph is kind of the standard of comparing between the different sports, whether it's basketball, baseball, football, boxing, golf, whatever.

235 Q:

Is that because it's easier to compare that than compare a signed football, versus signed basketball, versus a signed baseball?

236 A:

Yes. Because, obviously, in the baseball area a lot of baseball players signed baseballs, and football players would sign footballs.

237 Q:

And they cite different amounts?

238 A:

That's correct.

239 Q:

What does the current edition of Tuff Stuff reflect as the going price for Mr. Simpson's 8 by 10 autograph, 8 by 10 photograph?

240 MR. BAKER:

I object on foundational grounds.

241 THE COURT:

Overruled.

242 A:

It values his current signed photo at $60.

243 Q:

How does that compare with all of the other athletes listed?

244 MR. BAKER:

Object, Your Honor, it's irrelevant.

245 THE COURT:

Overruled.

246 A:

Well, of the several thousand that are listed, there's basically two different categories of autographs. Those are autographs of athletes that are deceased and autographs of athletes that are still alive. The ones that are deceased are -- can be more because they aren't available anymore. As far as the living athletes, several thousand living athletes that are listed -- listed here, there are only five -- five athletes with a higher value on their autograph than Mr. Simpson.

247 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) Who are those five?

248 A:

In the baseball area, Joe DiMaggio and Ted Williams. In the basketball area, Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell. In boxing, Mike Tyson.

249 Q:

And what does Mike Tyson's autograph go for?

250 MR. BAKER:

Objection, relevancy.

251 THE COURT:

Overruled.

252 A:

$100.

253 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) And Mike Tyson, of course, was convicted of rape some time ago and served some time in jail?

254 A:

Yes, sir.

255 Q:

Did his autograph -- by the way, do you know whether the value of Mike Tyson's autograph increased or decreased or stayed the same from the time before he was convicted of rape and then after he was convicted of rape?

256 MR. BAKER:

Relevancy.

257 THE COURT:

Overruled.

258 A:

It increased.

259 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) Okay. And did you do a comparison of what happened with Mr. Simpson's autograph from the time before he was charged with the murders and after he was charged with the murders?

260 A:

Yes, I did.

261 Q:

Did you prepare a chart reflecting that?

262 A:

Yes. Yes, sir, I did.

263 MR. BAKER:

You got some documents for me.

264 MR. GELBLUM:

This is part of his deposition exhibits.

265 MR. BAKER:

Oh.

266 MR. GELBLUM:

Your Honor, do you mind if we mark that magazine as an exhibit and use that? Is that acceptable?

267 THE COURT:

It's your exhibit.

268 MR. GELBLUM:

That will be 2420. And we'll mark this, O.J. Simpson's valuation chart, next in order as 2421.

269 (The instrument herein referred to as Magazine entitled Tuff Stuff was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 2420.)
270 (The instrument herein referred to as O.J. Simpson's valuation chart was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 2421.)
271 MR. BAKER:

That isn't in his deposition.

272 MR. GELBLUM:

It was. Let me see if I can find you a copy.

273 MR. BAKER:

I have a book of all of his exhibits.

274 MR. GELBLUM:

I don't have another copy now. It's up on the chart.

275 MR. BAKER:

I'm going to object on 2034 grounds.

276 MR. GELBLUM:

It was a deposition exhibit.

277 THE COURT:

Excuse me.

278 MR. BAKER:

It was not a deposition exhibit. It's not here.

279 THE COURT:

There's an objection. I'm sustaining it unless you show me otherwise.

280 MR. BAKER:

If you'll show it to me, I'll look and see if it's here.

281 MR. FOSTER:

Here. (Document is handed to Mr. Baker.)

282 MR. BAKER:

I don't think so, Peter. I don't think I've ever seen it before.

283 MR. GELBLUM:

I don't have the deposition transcript with me, Your Honor.

284 MR. BAKER:

Let me see it again.

285 MR. GELBLUM:

It's Exhibit 8 -- I'm sorry, Exhibit 11 to the deposition, called a valuation chart. (Mr. Baker and Mr. Gelblum converse sotto voce.)

286 MR. BAKER:

It's not here.

287 MR. GELBLUM:

It's the same -- it's Exhibit 7 to the deposition. (Counsel converse sotto voce.)

288 MR. BAKER:

Take this one and use the whole thing then. (Counsel takes two pages out of deposition.)

289 MR. GELBLUM:

Would you come in a little closer on the top, Steve.

290 THE COURT:

Are my eyes going bad or?

291 MR. FOSTER:

It's the documents.

292 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) All right. Can you read across the top. What are the columns listed that you have there? Mr. Roesler, you can look at it on the screen.

293 A:

Okay. The columns across the top are prior to June of 1994, and in the period between June and October -- June of '94 and October of '95.

294 Q:

That's another period that Mr. Simpson was incarcerated?

295 A:

That's correct. Then November of '95 through May of '96. And then June of '96 through the present time. So I tried to see if there was any fluctuation in terms of the value of his autograph during these periods of time.

296 Q:

Okay.

297 MR. GELBLUM:

Now, could you back that up and show the description on the left side, please. Indicating to Elmo)

298 A:

On the left side are some different items, and as I testified to a few moments ago, we were really focusing in on a signed photo which -- a signed 8 by 10 which is really the standard in the industry.

299 Q:

There's No. 3?

300 A:

That's No. 3, yes, sir.

301 Q:

Before the murders how much was a signed photo of Mr. Simpson going for?

302 A:

$25.

303 Q:

And immediately after the murders and during his incarceration?

304 A:

It went up to $60.

305 Q:

Has it remained there since?

306 A:

It has remained there very consistently at $60.

307 Q:

Okay.

THE COURT REPORTER: Does this have a number?

308 MR. GELBLUM:

Yeah, 2421.

309 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) And have other items signed by Mr. Simpson, related to Mr. Simpson, experienced similar increases in value since the murders, and have retained their valve since then --since his acquittal?

310 A:

Yes. It seems that most of Mr. Simpson's value has almost tripled since -- since the murders in terms of the autograph memorabilia.

KEY QUOTE
311 Q:

Okay.

312 MR. GELBLUM:

Steve, can you pull it over to the left so the jury can see the other numbers. (Elmo adjusted.)

313 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) Perhaps while that's up there, Mr. Roesler, you could read down what the first line is for the one from $7 to $20. What's that for?

314 A:

That's for what they call a cut signature which is just a signature, not -- not on a photo, or just a plain signature.

315 Q:

On a piece of paper?

316 A:

On a piece of paper.

317 Q:

And the second line?

318 A:

Is a 3 by 5 card which normally -- that's like a little post card.

319 Q:

And the third line, that's the 8 by 10?

320 A:

That's the 8 by 10 signed photo.

321 Q:

And the fourth line?

322 A:

Is called a gold line card. Of all the various -- it's of the Hall of Fame football players.

323 Q:

And there's another page to this exhibit. These are just --these are additional items related to Mr. Simpson and they showed the valuation at different points in time?

324 A:

Shows a value of some of his -- some of the cards and some of the actual -- cards that aren't actually signed by Mr. Simpson.

325 Q:

Okay. Okay. The jury can take a look at that in detail. Thanks. Based on -- by the way, is Tuff Stuff the only publication that reflects this increase in Mr. Simpson's -- the value of Mr. Simpson's signature?

326 A:

No. Most any publication would have consistent values.

327 Q:

Okay. Are you familiar through your work, sir, with the number of autographs that various sports celebrities sign in a year?

328 A:

Yes, I am.

329 Q:

And can you give us a range.

330 MR. BAKER:

I object. It's irrelevant, immaterial.

331 THE COURT:

Overruled.

332 A:

Well, it's not uncommon for famous sports stars to sign anywhere from 20 to 50,000 autographs or more.

333 Q:

That sounds like a lot of autographs. At autograph shows is there some kind of average number of autographs these guys can sign in an hour?

334 A:

Typically, it's expected anywhere from 250 to 300 or 350 autographs per hour that a sports celebrity is expected to sign.

335 Q:

So to sign 25,000 autographs in a year, that would be about 500 a week with two weeks off; is that right?

336 A:

That's correct.

337 Q:

And that would take how many hours per week to do that?

338 A:

Probably less than two hours a week.

339 Q:

Okay. And are there a number of sports stars out there who sell that many autographs year in and year out?

340 A:

Yes, there are.

341 Q:

And are there other athletes who earn a million to a million and a half dollars per year just from autographs?

342 A:

Yes.

343 MR. BAKER:

I object to the leading, Your Honor. This whole examination has been leading.

344 THE COURT:

Okay. Sustained.

345 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) I don't think I ever asked you, what is your bottom line opinion on how much you think Mr. Simpson could earn from signing autographs on an annual basis for the rest of his life?

346 MR. BAKER:

Speculation.

347 THE COURT:

Overruled.

348 A:

I believe Mr. Simpson can earn at least 1 million to 1 million and a half dollars a year in autographs.

349 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) Are there any athletes who make that much money from autographs?

350 MR. BAKER:

That's irrelevant, Your Honor.

351 THE COURT:

Overruled.

352 A:

There -- yes, there are a number of athletes that make that kind of money.

353 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) Can you give some examples?

354 A:

Mickey Mantle used to make between 2 and $3 million a year signing autographs. Joe DiMaggio had contracts where he's made over $2 million a year signing autographs. Those are just two of many. Reggie Jackson has had contracts where he's made over a million dollars a year signing autographs.

355 Q:

Now, when you say contracts to sign, what are you talking about?

356 A:

Well, that's a good question, because sometimes the -- sometimes the athletes just signs autographs on their own. Other times they have contracts with companies where they have an exclusive contract with that company to sign autographs just for them. And the arrangement I was talking about with Mickey Mantle and Joe DiMaggio, those were contracts that they had with the specific company where they were paid to exclusively sign autographs for those -- for that particular company.

357 Q:

Were they paid in advance for --

358 A:

Yeah.

359 Q:

-- a period of time, going out to the future?

360 A:

Yes, they were.

361 Q:

They were paid up front by some company millions of dollars --

362 MR. BAKER:

I object.

363 Q:

-- To sign their autographs?

364 MR. BAKER:

Irrelevant, immaterial, unless he says Mr. Simpson -- he can say Mr. Simpson has that kind of contract, when he cannot.

365 THE COURT:

Overruled.

366 A:

Yes, they were.

367 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) Any reason why Mr. Simpson can't have such a contract?

368 A:

No reason.

369 MR. BAKER:

Then give it to him.

KEY QUOTE
370 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) People who make those -- who give those contracts to those athletes, is their business making money?

371 A:

Yes, I believe so.

372 Q:

And you believe that Mr. Simpson could make a million to a million and a half dollars per year signing autographs?

373 MR. BAKER:

Leading, asked and answered.

374 THE COURT:

Sustained as to leading.

375 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) We've got your opinion on that. Let's go to the next category, product licensing, I think you said. Do you have an opinion as to how much money Mr. Simpson could make in an annual basis for product licensing?

376 A:

It was my opinion that Mr. Simpson would make anywhere from three-quarters of a million dollars to a million and a half dollars a year by licensing his name and likeness for various products.

377 Q:

Is there any, in your experience, correlation between the value of somebody's autograph as accepted in the market and the amount of money they can make from product licensing?

378 A:

Yes, there is a positive correlation, generally, of somebody's autograph is worth more, so is the memorabilia that's associated with their name or likeness.

379 Q:

Okay. When we're talking about product licensing or memorabilia, what are we talking about exactly?

380 A:

Well, you're talking about any product or piece of merchandise that would have the name or likeness of Mr. Simpson associated with it. Primarily, this would be in the sports area. And where there's a sports memorabilia market place as a -- is a very large market place that many, many famous athletes had a lot of product licensing.

381 Q:

Are you aware of any other athletes who make in the range of three-quarters of a million to a million and a half dollars per year between product licensing --

382 A:

There may have been name-type athletes that make that kind of money.

383 Q:

Can you name any?

384 A:

One of our clients, Babe Ruth, makes that kind of money. Mickey Mantle. Joe DiMaggio. People like that in terms of retired players. Obviously, some of the current players, you know, a Michael Jordan or someone like a Joe Montana, who recently retired, can make -- makes that kind of money.

385 Q:

On an annual basis?

386 A:

On an annual basis.

387 Q:

Have you seen, in the material that you've reviewed, any indication that there is interest, since Mr. Simpson was released from jail, that there's been any interest from third parties in engaging in product licensing deals with him?

388 A:

Yes, I have.

389 Q:

What indication have you seen?

390 A:

Well, I reviewed Mr. Taft's, his business manager's deposition, and one of the lawsuits that we spoke about this morning when they sued a number of infringers that were using Mr. Simpson's name and likeness. In that deposition, Mr. Taft stated that there were -- there were anywhere from 20 to 50 discussions with companies after October of '95. And I believe the deposition was February 15, 1996.

391 Q:

That's about four and a half months?

392 A:

Yes, it is.

393 Q:

Okay. In your experience, is that a considerable number of discussions to be having with potential licensors -- licensees?

394 A:

Well, it would depend on who it is, but it's 20 to 50 discussions in a four and a half month period. That's a fairly significant number. But considering Mr. Simpson's fame that would consist -- that is consistent with what I would expect.

395 Q:

Now, so that's three quarters of a million for -- one and a half million for product licensing?

396 A:

Yes, it is.

397 Q:

All right. Now, the next category you mentioned is endorsements and advertisements. Again, can you briefly explain what you mean by that, what's included within that category?

398 A:

Well, an endorsement would be where a celebrity actually supports or promotes a particular product or service. Advertisement would be perhaps a couple steps below in the sense that you could be using an advertisement and not necessarily support or endorse the particular product, you could just -- your name could be an area photo or -- you wouldn't necessarily endorse a particular product.

399 Q:

Okay. And at the present time, do you believe Mr. Simpson has much of a future as a commercial endorser on a national basis for national products?

400 A:

No, I don't believe Mr. Simpson has much viability as a --as a commercial endorser, at least in the mass market area. I believe that there are several different markets where it's possible he could make certain money. He certainly has international notoriety so there might be some limited advertising and endorsement opportunities internationally, some perhaps in the -- in certain ethnic marketing type area. There could be some -- some limited possibilities maybe in the -- maybe down the road in the -- in the sports area, in the Hall of Fame area, in football, but very limited in that area.

401 Q:

Okay. And what is your estimate for the amount of money that Mr. Simpson could make in these limited areas on an annual basis going forward for the rest of his life?

402 A:

It was my opinion that Mr. Simpson might make anywhere from 100,000 to $500,000 in this area.

403 Q:

And is that a large amount for somebody with his name and notoriety?

404 A:

No, that's -- I consider that a fairly minimal amount.

405 Q:

Your next category you mentioned was media type uses. And could you explain what you mean by that?

406 A:

Well, media type uses would be where -- where either photos or interviews of Mr. Simpson were used. Could be in either --in terms of documentaries, books, magazines, similar uses like that. And then in that area, Mr. Simpson has demonstrated that he's made money in that area in the past, primarily by giving exclusive interviews. I believe they were -- there were two interviews in the past number of months that he gave, one for 20 or $25,000 and another for $50,000 I believe. So that would also include photos of Mr. Simpson that -- perhaps recent photos from his recent -- the matter surrounding this trial and previous trial or could be sports images of Mr. Simpson from his career as a -- as an athlete, and all of those are areas where Mr. Simpson would be compensated for the use, whether it's in, you know, could be in a documentary form, could be interview form or whatever.

407 Q:

Do you have other clients who make money from these kinds of uses?

408 A:

Yes, we do. Most of our clients make -- make money in this area.

409 Q:

This is a typical area for people, celebrities to exploit?

410 A:

Yes, it is.

411 Q:

The next category you listed was books and audio tapes. I'm sorry, I'm not sure you gave the bottom line number for the media type uses in the last category. What was your estimate for how much Mr. Simpson could make in that category on an annual basis?

412 A:

I estimated that Mr. Simpson should make anywhere from 100,000 to $250,000 each year in this area.

413 Q:

Okay. Back to the books and audio tapes. Start with this, so I don't forget it, in the beginning. What's your estimate about how much Mr. Simpson might make in the future from books and audio tapes?

414 A:

I'd put a conservative estimate of anywhere from -- from 4 to $5 million as a -- as a one time or 4 to $5 million over the rest of his life in this area.

415 Q:

That's something on an annual basis, or you're talking about a book or two?

416 A:

I'm talking about a book or two, and that -- again, that would be because it wouldn't be something that would necessarily be on a recurring basis, it was hard to slot it into particular years, but I estimated the total of that would be 4 to $5 million.

417 Q:

What's the basis for that estimate?

418 A:

Well, the basis for that estimate is Mr. Simpson's recently published one book or -- authored one book, the "I Want To Tell You" book, and he's also done an audio tape, and there's been no book on either the criminal trial or -- or the civil trial, and I placed what I think is a very conservative estimate of 4 to $5 million in this area, which is -- which is actually less than -- than some of the other principal figures received for the books that they've done.

419 Q:

What figures are you talking about?

420 MR. BAKER:

I'll object. This is relevance and --

421 THE REPORTER:

Can you repeat your objection, please.

422 THE COURT:

Overruled.

423 MR. BAKER:

Doesn't matter what my objection is.

424 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) Go ahead, Mr. Roesler. What are the figures you're referring to when comparing what you estimate Mr. Simpson could get to what others have gotten?

425 A:

Both Marcia Clark and Johnny Cochran have received advances in excess of $4 million for their books on the -- on the criminal trial, and I believe it's -- it's reasonable that Mr. Simpson could receive certainly more than either of those two.

KEY QUOTE
426 Q:

Okay. Let's go to the next category you had, which was movies. Obviously, I think you've discussed the course of the trial, Mr. Simpson has had a career as an actor. Is it your opinion that he can continue that career at the same level and in the same types of movies that he has in the past?

427 A:

No, it's not.

428 Q:

Okay. Did you assign a number for what you think Mr. Simpson could obtain from movie roles the balance of his life?

429 A:

Yes, I did. And I did it the same way I did the books and audio tapes. I assigned just one value to that area over the rest of his life.

430 Q:

What's that value?

431 A:

I assigned a value of between 500,000 and $3 million during the rest of his life.

432 Q:

Now, does that -- is that number just for movie roles that he would perform in the future from here on in?

433 A:

Well, that's -- that includes several different areas. It includes any movie roles that he might be in. It includes residual revenues. I took into consideration that in the -- in the last time period that I analyzed, the Screen Actors Guild residuals for Mr. Simpson were over $10,000 just for 1996. So I assume that he could make at least $250,000 just from the residuals on the existing movies that he's done. Also, there's -- he would receive revenue if any clips from his existing movies were used in various movies, and often clips from -- from a movie that you're in are used in another movie or in some other form of media use, and you're paid what's referred to in the industry a clip licensing fee.

434 Q:

Is there some range -- standard range for clip licensing fees?

435 A:

Typically, depending upon the use, it's anywhere from several thousand dollars to $25,000 or more, depending upon how extensive the use of something like that is. But I guess the other area was I think it's reasonable that at some period down the line Mr. Simpson might play some small part in a movie, either here or -- domestically or abroad, and he could receive revenue for that. Again, not the kind of revenue he's been accustomed to from his previous movie roles, but it is -- it is possible that he could receive revenue from that source too.

436 Q:

So your estimate on this category of movies is based on the assumption that there could -- would be a substantial decrease from what he received in the past for this kind of activity?

437 A:

Yes, very substantial decrease.

438 Q:

Another category was items owned by Mr. Simpson. What do you mean by that?

439 A:

Well, these would -- are items that are owned by Mr. Simpson that he could sell off as something that he owned, and there's a value to these items that were once owned by Mr. Simpson, there's a premium associated with that.

440 Q:

How do you know that?

441 A:

Well, I know that from some of the -- some of the things that have surfaced and been sold that Mr. Simpson owned. I believe one of his trophies sold for $5,500. A pair of tennis shoes that he owned brought in $805 in an auction. There was a premium associated with the sale of his Ferrari. So all -- all of these items that were owned by Mr. Simpson, there are people out there that are willing to pay a premium to say that they have an item that was owned by him.

442 Q:

And what -- what value did you assign to this category?

443 A:

Well, I looked at the value in his financial statements, where he said he had $500,000 worth of personal furnishings, and I attached a one time value of anywhere from a half million dollars to a million dollars in this area.

444 Q:

Is that half million to a million just the premium that you're estimating could be obtained based on the sale of goods that he owns?

445 A:

Yes.

446 Q:

It's not the value of the goods themselves?

447 A:

That's correct.

448 Q:

Adding all these numbers up together, all the figures, I think you had a low end and a high end, what did you come up with again for the total that you think Mr. Simpson ought to be able to earn from all these various sources, on an annual basis, for the rest of his life?

449 A:

On an annual basis, I estimated that figure to be in the range of 2 million to $3 million per year.

450 Q:

And is that an extraordinarily high amount for athletes of his name and notoriety?

451 A:

No, it is not.

452 Q:

I want to show you what -- this was Deposition Exhibit 8, I believe, or part of 8, something from Mark McCormick's Guide for Sports Marketing. We'll mark this next in order.

453 THE CLERK:

2422.

454 MR. GELBLUM:

2422.

455 (The instrument herein described as Exhibit 8 from Deposition was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 2422.)
456 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) Can you describe what 2422 is?

457 MR. BAKER:

I'll object under Evidence Code 721, Your Honor. (Pause.)

458 THE COURT:

Lay a foundation.

459 MR. BAKER:

Your Honor, I would just object on the grounds that neither this article or magazine can be introduced through direct testimony. That's my understanding of 721A and 721B. That's what he's attempting to accomplish here.

460 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) Did you rely on -- without telling us what's on the pages quite yet, did you rely on Exhibit 2422, was it --

461 MR. BAKER:

It's irrelevant, Your Honor.

462 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) -- in rendering the opinion you just gave that 2 to $3 million a year is not an exorbitant amount for somebody in Mr. Simpson's position?

463 A:

Yes, I did.

464 THE COURT:

Just a minute. (Pause for the Court to review code section.)

465 THE COURT:

Overruled.

466 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) And what is that exhibit, sir?

467 A:

Well, this is a recent publication that was published this year and it was from the book entitled Mark McCormick's Guide to Sports Marketing.

468 Q:

Who is Mark McCormick?

469 A:

Mark McCormick has published a number of books in the sports -- in the sports marketing area and he is the founder of a company called International Management Group, but he's considered one of the foremost authorities in the -- in the sports business and he's also an author and he published this book, and one part of the book was who the top endorsers were, the current top endorsers on an annual basis in the sports marketplace.

470 Q:

And did Mr. McCormick list various -- is it just sports figures?

471 A:

Yes, it is.

472 Q:

Sports figures and the amounts that they make from off the field activities, that is activities other than performing in their sport?

473 A:

That's correct.

474 Q:

And are there a number of people who make on an annual basis more than 2 to $3 million a year that Mr. McCormick listed?

475 A:

Well, of the top 20 -- the top 20 were in a range of 40 million as a high to Michael Jordan each year to -- number 20 was Steve Young, quarterback for San Francisco 49'ers, and he was listed at $3 million a year.

476 Q:

Okay. And based on that, does that support your opinion that it's reasonable to assume Mr. Simpson could make 2 to $3 million a year through the various uses you described?

477 A:

Yes, it is.

478 MR. GELBLUM:

Nothing further, Your Honor.

Temperature

procedural

Key Quotes (5)

Mark Roesler
Plaintiff O.J. Simpson is perhaps one of the most famous people in the world today. Mr. Simpson's name and notoriety have created huge, lucrative markets to people such as the defendants herein to sell unauthorized and unlicensed merchandise carrying his name, photograph, and/or likeness, including clothing, posters, cards, toys, souvenirs and other paraphernalia.
Roesler read this directly from a complaint filed by Simpson himself, turning Simpson's own legal filings into evidence of the value of his name and likeness.
Mark Roesler
It seems that most of Mr. Simpson's value has almost tripled since -- since the murders in terms of the autograph memorabilia.
Central to the damages theory: the murders did not destroy Simpson's commercial value — they increased it.
Mark Roesler
It increased.
Roesler's answer when asked whether Mike Tyson's autograph value went up or down after Tyson's rape conviction — directly analogizing Simpson's situation.
Robert Baker
Then give it to him.
Sardonic outburst from the defense attorney when Gelblum asked whether there was 'any reason' Simpson couldn't obtain a lucrative autograph contract — a rare moment of dark humor that was not struck.
Mark Roesler
Both Marcia Clark and Johnny Cochran have received advances in excess of $4 million for their books on the -- on the criminal trial, and I believe it's -- it's reasonable that Mr. Simpson could receive certainly more than either of those two.
Supports the $4–5 million book estimate and implicitly argues Simpson's story is worth more than those of the lawyers who tried him.

Evidence (9)

Plaintiffs' 752
Report by Mark Roesler with exhibits regarding valuation of defendant's name and likeness
introduced
Plaintiffs' 2416
Roesler summary of trademark search results for Simpson's six pending trademark applications
introduced and discussed
Plaintiffs' 2417
Copy of complaint in Simpson v. Choi (filed September 20, 1995), asserting commercial misappropriation of likeness and trademark infringement
introduced and read from
Plaintiffs' 2418
Copy of complaint in Simpson/Orenthal Productions v. John Doe et al., similar misappropriation suit
introduced
Plaintiffs' 2419
Summary of 20 contracts for Simpson's name and likeness, 19 of them post-June 1994
introduced and displayed on Elmo
Plaintiffs' 2420
Current edition of Tuff Stuff magazine, listing autograph values for sports celebrities
introduced and displayed to jury
+ 3 more

Notable Exchanges (3)

Peter GelblumRobert Baker
Dispute over whether Roesler's autograph valuation chart (2421) was a deposition exhibit. Baker insisted it was not in his deposition exhibit book; Gelblum cited it variously as Exhibit 8, 11, and 7 before the parties resolved it by removing pages from the deposition binder.
contentious and disorganized
Peter GelblumMark Roesler
Gelblum walked Roesler through the Mike Tyson analogy — Tyson convicted of rape, served time, autograph value increased — to lay a predicate that criminal notoriety does not necessarily destroy commercial value.
strategic
Peter GelblumMark Roesler
Gelblum had Roesler read paragraph 46 of Simpson's own lawsuit aloud to the jury — Simpson's attorney had filed papers calling him 'perhaps one of the most famous people in the world today' — undermining any defense argument that his name had no exploitable value.
revealing

Light Moments (3)

Robert Baker
After Gelblum asked 'Any reason why Mr. Simpson can't have such a contract?' regarding lucrative autograph deals, Baker interjected: 'Then give it to him.'
Hiroshi Fujisaki
When Gelblum tried to mark the autograph valuation chart, Fujisaki squinted at the Elmo screen and said 'Are my eyes going bad or?' — prompting the court's tech assistant to admit the document itself was hard to read.
Peter Gelblum
Gelblum produced two copies of the same lawsuit instead of the two different complaints he intended to introduce, apologizing to the court mid-examination.

Credibility Attacks (1)

⚔ Mark Roesler
foundation challenge / prior disclosure
Baker repeatedly objected that documents Roesler relied on (the valuation chart, the McCormick guide) were not produced or identified as deposition exhibits under Evidence Code 2034, attempting to exclude his opinion or its supporting materials on disclosure grounds.

Witness Demeanor

(The witness complies.) — retrieving report from briefcase when asked
(Continuing.) — after being asked to move back from microphone mid-answer

Objections

24 objections (3 sustained, 18 overruled)
Proceeding 8899 • 478 utterances • Defense witness
Civil Trial
Department 103
⚖️ Start
📂 FEB 6, 1997 📄 Direct examination of Mark Roe
FEB 6, 1997 KRT DvH TD