Okay. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BAKER:

Have you ever represented any athlete or retired athlete who has been found guilty by a jury of murdering his ex-wife and another human being and had a damage assessment of 8.5 million against them?

No, sir.

Do you know of anybody in the world that has that experience?

That particular experience?

Sure. That's what we're talking about. Mr. Simpson has been found liable by this jury of murdering two people and assessed damages of $8.5 million. You're aware of that?

Yes, sir.

Do you know of anybody in the world who has the experience of representing such a person?

No, I do not.

Now, in terms of your analysis, you just told us about the top -- the 20 top endorsers, did you not?

Yes, I did.

And you are of the opinion that Mr. Simpson's value as an endorser is severely limited, correct, minimal amount, 100,000 to 500,000, right?

Yes, sir.

Now, when were you retained in this case, Mr. Roesler?

I was retained in -- sometime in early 1996.

And you're from Indianapolis, right?

Yes, sir.

And the Indianapolis Star, Indianapolis News is the paper there in Indianapolis, right?

Yes, sir.

And just after the verdict came down in the criminal case, you told that newspaper that his viability as a commercial endorser will be diminished to virtually zero, didn't you?

I believe I said something to that effect.

Put that up on the Elmo. Excuse me. I'm sorry. (Document is displayed on Elmo.)

(BY MR. BAKER) You said in an interview before you were retained on this case, talking about Mr. Simpson's ability as a commercial endorser, "There's a segment of the public that remain Simpson fans. However, the majority of those who don't support him have such strong feelings that his viability as a commercial endorser will be diminished to virtually zero." That's what you told the paper before you were retained in this case, right?

That's what you told the paper before you were retained in this case; virtually zero?

Can I ask you to clarify your question. Are you talking about my whole opinion or are you talking about one of the seven areas?

Did you tell the Indianapolis Star that his commercial endorse -- his ability or viability as a commercial endorser will be diminished to virtually zero?

I believe I told the Indianapolis Star what I stated there.

All right. And that was your opinion before you were retained in this matter, correct?

That's correct.

And as I understand it, you believe that Mr. Simpson will have the ability to sell 20 to 50,000 autographs per year for the rest of his entire life, right?

I believe in the area of about 25,000 autographs a year is what I estimated.

You just testified, did you not, that he could sell 20 to 50,000 autographs per year, right?

I believe -- I believe my testimony was that there are individuals out there, sports celebrities out there that -- that sell that many autographs a year.

Mr. Roesler, let's stick to Mr. Simpson.

Okay.

In your opinion, relative to Mr. Simpson --

Is there a question?

Excuse me?

I'm wondering if there's a question or just a speech.

Just be patient. Just be patient.

I think he's gearing up to ask a question.

I'm gearing up.

(BY MR. BAKER) Now, your testimony is that Mr. Simpson -- that there is a market out there for the next 25 years to sell autographs with O.J. Simpson's name on it, right?

Yes, sir.

And you believe that that is not going to diminish as a result of the verdict that the jury rendered on Tuesday, right?

That's correct.

And you think it's exceedingly viable, right?

Will you define exceedingly viable.

Well, 25 years, that's what I mean. That's a pretty viable marketplace, to sell 20 to 30,000 autographs a year for 25 years. There's got to be a lot of demand out there to sell that many autographs. You would agree with that?

A lot of demand is a relative term. I stated that I believe he could sell 25,000 autographs a year for the rest of his life.

Now, let me show you --

What's the next in order?

2423.

(BY MR. BAKER) That's an autographed phone calling card, right? Has Mr. Simpson in a Buffalo Bills uniform and has got his autograph, and it's got a picture of him in the corner there, right?

Yes, sir.

Now, what's that worth, Mr. Roesler? What can you sell that card for?

Well, I can't tell you exactly what you could sell this card for. I'd need more information. I mean, how much -- how much calling time is on the card?

There's none. There's no calling time on the card. It's a prepaid phone card. What you do is, you call in, you get the prepaid amount, and use it as a phone card. And it's got written rights on it, how collectible it is, right?

Okay.

So forget the fact that it's a phone card, or -- doesn't matter to me, but it's his picture, his autograph; it's got him in uniform. He's a Hall of Famer. Tell the jury what it's worth.

Well, it has his actual signature on it, I'd have to know how many of these were produced, but I'd say it's worth -- it's worth -- I don't know. I'd have to study it.

Come on, tell us what it's worth. You told us what an autograph is worth. Tell us what that's worth.

There's a myriad -- there are countless products out there. I can't -- I can't give you an opinion exactly on what it's worth, but it's worth something.

Give us a range.

It's worth anywhere from -- since it has his signature on it, from -- anywhere from $20 to $100.

Okay. So minimum is 20, and if you couldn't even give those away, would you agree that your opinion is basically valueless, correct?

If you couldn't give those away, yes, I would agree with your statement, if you couldn't give them away.

Okay. Now, in terms of coming up with the numbers that you come up with, you have suggested that these items -- for example, you talked about an 8-by-10 being worth $60, right?

Yes, sir.

And that's retail price, huh?

Yes, sir.

And you're not suggesting to this jury that the personality would get $60 for an 8-by-10 picture, are you?

Not on an 8-by-10 picture -- Mr. Simpson you're talking of -- correct.

And you don't know, as you sit here now, if you can even give away 8-by-10s of Mr. Simpson, even if they're autographed; you don't know there's a market out there or there isn't a market, do you?

That's absolutely incorrect.

Well, let me ask you this question: You said that he's going to earn all this money for all these years. We'll make you a deal right now. You want to buy his exclusive rights for the rest of his life, $25 million? You got it; done.

I --

Objection. Argumentative and irrelevant.

Sustained.

(BY MR. BAKER) Twenty million.

Same objection.

Sustained.

(BY MR. BAKER) You wouldn't buy it at all, would you?

Same objection.

Sustained.

I --

Well, you wouldn't even have him as a client, would you, Mr. Roesler?

Well, I think if someone could buy Mr. Simpson's complete package of name and likeness and his trademark rights for the type of numbers you're talking about, that would be a bargain.

Okay. Thank you. (Laughter.)

I guarantee you, you'll never collect. You wouldn't even take him as a client because you're worried about what your other clients would think if you had Mr. Simpson as a client; isn't that true, sir?

That would be a consideration; yes, it would.

And let's go back to one thing. In terms of this autograph, when you talk about the selling of autographs -- do you go to any sports memorabilia shows in the last six months?

Yes, sir.

Did you go to the Heismann show?

Well, was that -- no. I'm trying to -- I'm trying to remember if someone from my staff went to that show. If you give me a little more information -- where was it?

Have you ever heard of the Heismann Memorabilia Show, Mr. Roesler?

The name seems --

The Heismann Trophy, you know, you kind -- do we kind of assimilate one with the other?

Yes, sir, I can.

And do you know whether or not the promoters of the Heismann Memorabilia Show would even let O.J. Simpson exhibit anything?

Is that the show that he had the $100,000 contract for that --

He was absolutely excluded from being present at the show.

Objection. Is Mr. Baker testifying?

Sure. If he is, I am.

Move to strike.

Mr. Baker, you wish to testify, take the stand?

I'll be happy to.

You're not testifying now. I'll sustain the objection.

(BY MR. BAKER) The show was in the Meadowlands in New Jersey. Are you familiar with it, the Heismann show?

The -- yes, I'm familiar with what we're discussing.

And do you know how much memorabilia Mr. Simpson usually markets at the Super Bowl through his agent every year?

Do I know? I don't know the exact amount.

Do you know that they excluded him this year; he sold nothing at the Super Bowl?

Objection. Mr. Baker is testifying. Assumes facts not in evidence.

You may answer yes or no.

(BY MR. BAKER) Do you know whether that's true, he sold absolutely not one nickel of sports memorabilia at the Super Bowl?

I don't know that that's true.

Do you know whether or not he sold even $10,000 worth of memorabilia in the last six months?

In the last six months, I don't -- I don't know that he sold $10,000.

Do you think that there's really a market out there, Mr. Roesler, for the name O.J. Simpson on coffee cups and sweatshirts? You think that's out there?

Absolutely.

You think that because you trademark something, that that means there's income?

That -- I would assume that someone that took out 20 applications for 550 different goods assumed that there was a market out there. And those applications were in '95 and '96. That would be my assumption.

Taking out a trademark does not put one nickel in anybody's pocket until an item is sold. You would agree with that?

Until the -- there's a value to the trademark, in and of itself.

Doesn't put one nickel in Mr. Simpson pocket or into his net worth, otherwise, his financial statement, until something can be sold. You would agree with that?

Until something could -- till a product could be sold or till you could sell the trademarks, I'd agree with that.

You got to sell something, right?

That's true.

If there is no market out there for it because Mr. Simpson has been black-balled, nothing is going to get sold; you would agree with that?

I would agree with your statement that if there's no market, that you couldn't sell anything.

And in terms of product licensing, you seen any contracts in the last 12 months for Mr. Simpson to license any product?

Well, I testified a few moments ago, that in --

Can you answer my question? It was pure and simple. Have you seen any contracts for Mr. Simpson to license anything in the last 12 months?

I haven't seen any contracts that commenced in the last 12 months.

Do you know, sir, whether Mr. Simpson, when his image was untainted, earned two to three million dollars a year for marketing his likeness and image?

I wasn't supplied with any information prior to the murders.

You have no knowledge whatsoever, do you?

That's correct.

You're aware, of course, that his Hertz contract was revoked?

Yes, sir.

You're aware that his NBC contract was revoked?

Yes, sir.

You're aware that he does not get $50 per autograph?

No, I'm not aware of that.

Well, is it your opinion that Mr. Simpson, after all sales, fees and everything else, can now generate 20 to 30,000 autographs a year, that he will net $50 on?

I could say on an average, Mr. Simpson might get a hundred dollars a signature on an 8-by-10. He might get less than that. So there's a range of prices on what's paid for different items.

So we're clear, forgetting the value of whatever the autograph is signed upon, is it your testimony in this courtroom, that you believe Mr. Simpson, after commissions and costs after sales, can net $50 every time he signs his name? There's a market for 20,000 to 30,000 autographs per year for the next 25 years for Mr. Simpson?

That's correct.

You don't believe that his -- the decision in this civil case will affect his value at all, correct?

That's correct.

You believe that his popularity is high and will stay at a very high level, correct?

I believe it's high with a certain segment of the population.

You testified in your deposition that his popularity was high and would remain high, correct, regardless of the segment?

Yes. Yes, Mr. Simpson has a very high level of recognition throughout the world. There are people that --

Forget recognition.

Can he finish his answer?

No. His answer is nonresponsive.

Overruled. You may finish your answer; it's responsive.

I was testifying that he has a very high level of recognition throughout the world, and there are people that want a part of that, whether a product or an autograph.

The recognition and popularity are two different things, aren't they?

They're a little different.

There are people readily recognized that are not popular, correct?

Sure. Sure.

And Mr. Simpson is -- in your view, is very, very popular, right?

I wouldn't necessarily -- I wouldn't necessarily make that statement. I think he's very popular with a certain segment of the world's population, and that --

Did you see the poll today in U.S.A. Today?

I saw the poll yesterday.

Seventy-four percent of white persons, he's not very popular with at all. The sports memorabilia market is driven by white America, is it not, sir?

Well, I don't -- I wouldn't agree with that.

Now, you -- in determining Mr. Simpson's movie roles, you were speculating whether he could earn between $500,000 and $3 million over the next 25 years, correct?

I don't believe so. I testified that my opinion stated that he could make $500,000 to a million dollars over the rest of his life.

Okay. Page 276 of your deposition -- well, page 28, lines 2 through 5, speaking about -- you're talking about Mr. Simpson's earnings of $500,000 to $3 million in movie-type roles. (Reading:)

And basically, and you're basically, I take it, speculating that over the next 25 years, he could earn between $500,000 and $3 million; is that correct?

That's correct. That's what you testified to in your deposition, was it not, sir?

If that's what's in my deposition, that's probably what I said.

And you said you speculate and form an opinion -- is that how you -- well, let me read you the entire testimony.

So, for the two to three million that you have asserted Mr. Simpson can earn on the sale of his name and likeness, we can put zero for the limited movie-type roles, correct?

Well, I don't know if zero is -- it's difficult to speculate and form an opinion on what someone's future values is. It is difficult to place specific numbers. And in some categories, I thought it was very reasonable to place specific annual amounts, but this is something I don't feel comfortable with, putting an annual amount. I also put -- I also don't put an annual amount of zero on there. So what you do, sir, and what you came here to do before this jury, is to speculate and then form an opinion and put numbers on what's going to happen 25 years from now, when you don't even, of course, know if Mr. Simpson is going to be alive 25 years from now. Isn't that correct?

Well, it's correct that I don't know if Mr. Simpson going to be alive in 25 years. But I guess my answer was meant to be that I -- because I wasn't attributing an exact amount for each year, that I had to look at it a different way, and I came up with --with one lump sum that he could -- that he would receive over the rest of his useful life. And there were, like I said, a number of factors that went into that, the residual revenue that he could receive, and I arrived at what I thought was a fairly conservative number. And that's what my opinion was.

Well, if the actual people who are trying to market O.J. Simpson memorabilia can't market it at all, you would agree that your opinions are flawed, correct?

Objection. Assumes facts not in evidence.

Overruled.

Would you please repeat the question.

Sure.

(BY MR. BAKER) Let's assume hypothetically, there are people out there that have produced that card; there are people out there trying to sell Mr. Simpson's signature on football cards, et cetera, and there is no market. You would agree that if that's the case, your opinions relative to any of this $25 million, $50 million or whatever million dollars is flawed, correct?

And you would also agree that it is speculative to assert what is going to happen after this jury has returned its verdict, because this case is like no other case in the world; true?

False.

You think that this case is -- well, strike that. In your view, the best approach to determine what Mr. Simpson's future sales would be, would be to put on the stand the people who are attempting to sell his memorabilia and see if there is a market. You would agree with that?

No, I would not agree with that.

In other words, you don't think that the people who are actually out there trying to make a living as a commission salesperson for O.J. Simpson memorabilia -- do you think you have better information than those people about what's in the market? Correct?

Well, I don't know exactly whether you're talking about his people that are actually selling product or you're talking about his business representatives or --

I'm talking about people that are -- that are.

People that are?

Sports memorabilia business, who are trying to make money off the name of O.J. Simpson. You would agree with me that they're in a better position to determine what the market than you, correct?

Objection. incomplete hypothetical. Depends who the people are, what heir abilities are, what their backgrounds are.

Maybe it would help you --

Excuse me. There's an objection.

Sorry.

Objection overruled. Go ahead and answer.

You're question is, for example, this person selling this phone card?

(BY MR. BAKER) No. My question to you is that the people who let -- just take the last six months, for example.

Okay.

Who are out there trying to sell O.J. Simpson sports memorabilia to make a living themselves, regardless of what happened to Mr. Simpson, would be in a better position than you to determine what the market is and if there is a market for any name or likeness for Mr. Simpson, correct?

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that. I mean --

Okay.

-- memorabilia would be one aspect of it. There are many different facets of the portfolio of assets that Mr. Simpson has.

And you have never tried to market one item, not a single item of Mr. Simpson's before you concluded that after this jury's verdict, he can make two to three million dollars a year. Is that true, sir?

It would be impossible for me to do. That's correct. I haven't, but I don't know how I could.

That's incorrect.

You have no knowledge of whether or not there really is a market, do you?

That's not correct.

You -- well, just one other area quickly. And that, sir, is the area where you have indicated that these -- some of these personalities -- well, strike that. Let's go to the items owned by Mr. Simpson. You say that has an increased market because he's owned it, right?

Yes, sir.

And you -- you talked about the Ferrari that he owned?

Yes, sir.

And that Ferrari had a value, you said, of $92,000?

Something like that. I don't remember the exact numbers.

Well, that's what you said in your deposition.

Okay. I'm sure. That was pretty close.

That Ferrari sold for $102,000, right?

I think $102,000 is what Mr. Simpson netted. I think there was some -- some --

Sales price of that Ferrari at auction was $102,500; is that not right, sir?

I don't know exactly what it was, without the facts. That could be correct.

So part of all of this two to three million a year that Mr. Simpson can sell his personal property at some sort of, in your view, bonus or premium, right?

Not exactly correct. Because again, what I did on a couple of those areas, I assigned one number, one lump-sum number for the whole period of 25 years, as opposed to an annual fee. So, in the case of actual items owned by Mr. Simpson, I just placed a figure of a half a million dollars to one million dollars, one-time fee. Now that's -- I think that's a conservative -- conservative number, because Mr. Simpson can buy stuff and then sell it. So even though he only has $500,000, that assumes that he could get twice that much for it. But he can also buy things and sell it.

You don't, of course, have a clue what the $500,000 -- whether it's sofas or tennis shoes, right?

I assume it's both, and many other things.

And you think that all of this has a premium and there's a real market out there for Mr. Simpson's apparel, as well as his sofas and his lamps and china and everything else?

I think clothing items would be much more valuable than a sofa -- sofa or a -- a lamp. But I'm certain there's a value to the other items, too.

And you're, of course -- of course, speculating when you put this $500,000 to a million, because you don't know if anybody would come to an auction of Mr. Simpson's personal property, do you?

No, I'm not speculating. This happens all the time with celebrities that were involved with -- there are various auctions and various sales of items that are so owned by these people. There's a value associated with it. And often, it's a premium. How much of a premium? It obviously significantly varies. And sometimes you're surprised by it. And in the Kennedy Onassis auction, I know they anticipated one figure, and several times that much came from that. And those were items such as drapes and lamps and things like that, that were sold there.

And that was sold with somebody with an untainted image, correct, Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis?

I would consider it untainted.

And you certainly, in your business, are well aware of the concepts of good will versus ill will, correct?

Well, I'm familiar that there's a difference between good will and ill will.

And a personality only has the ability to sell items as long as they have good will and not ill will; isn't that true, sir?

I would say that's false.

So ill will is just fine; and you don't think that Mr. Simpson is going to have any problems in marketing because of this jury finding him responsible for killing two people, right?

I think that Mr. Simpson --

You can answer that yes or no.

Please repeat the question.

You don't believe that Mr. Simpson will have any problem marketing anything as a result of this jury finding that he is responsible for killing two people, correct?

Well, you --

Yes or no?

-- your --

Yes or no?

-- blanket statements make it impossible for me to answer that yes or no.

Well, never mind.

Ten-minute recess, ladies and gentlemen. Don't talk about the case. Don't form or express any opinions.