📄 Direct examination of Dr. Werner Spitz (part 2) — Friday, November 8, 1996
Address:
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TRIAL
▲ Day 12 of 57

Direct examination of Dr. Werner Spitz (part 2)

Witness: Dr. Werner Spitz
Examiner: Edward Medvene
Called by: Defense • Date: Friday, November 8, 1996 • Utterances: 121
Dr. Werner Spitz, a forensic pathologist, provides detailed direct examination testimony about the injuries and cause of death of both Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman. For Nicole, he explains how her forward-bent position caused blood to flow downward. For Goldman, he systematically catalogs four wound categories and identifies the small left-flank stab wound penetrating the aorta as the devastating, death-causing injury, with aortic hemorrhage causing internal blood loss that killed Goldman before the lung wounds would have.
1 Q:

Dr. Spitz, when we concluded, you made a reference to the arteries and blood spurting from arteries.

Were you making a specific reference to this case or arteries in general?

2 A:

No, I was answering your question about pressure in the arteries. And this is -- this was a general statement about how much pressure there is in an artery, as opposed to some other blood vessels which don't have this kind of pressure.

This is not applicable to this case at all. In other words, yes, there is a lot of pressure in this case, but it didn't go to any ceiling. There was no ceiling in this case.

3 Q:

Now, in this case, in your opinion, from what you've seen and viewed, where did the blood go?

4 A:

She was -- maybe you can help me.

She was bent forward; I think she was (demonstrating). She was even closer, I think, a foot above the ground, because the blood comes out, gushes out under great pressure. There is no blood in the vast area around; there is blood down below, running down from the bottom step, down on the ground.

This is where the blood went. The blood shot downward because she was down like so, and she was down like so. That's how the blood the got there. Otherwise, the blood would have been all over the place.

5 Q:

And her head was pulled out?

6 A:

And her head was pulled back.

7 Q:

How?

8 (Witness demonstrates.)
9 MR. BAKER:

With the left hand underneath his nose?

10 DR. WERNER SPITZ:

Either that way or by the hair.

Somehow, the neck was taut; otherwise, you wouldn't get this kind of a gaping wound.

11 Q:

Okay. Thank you.

12 (Witness assists Mr. Medvene to stand up.)
13 Q:

Let's move, if we might, to Mr. Goldman.

Based on your review of the -- of the material you previously described, do you have an opinion as to the cause of death of Mr. Goldman?

14 A:

Mr. Goldman died as a result of blood loss. The cause of death is the same in Mr. Goldman as it was in Nicole Brown.

15 Q:

You say the cause of death is the same. What do you mean by that?

16 A:

Blood loss.

17 Q:

Could you describe for us his injuries and put them in groups, if you could.

18 A:

Ron -- Ron Goldman has injuries that can be grouped into four categories. He had superficial wounds, superficial injuries, superficial cuts and bruises, and various defensive-type wounds in various parts of the body, including a cut on the left -- on the front of the left thigh.

I know it looks wide and gaping.

This was also not a very devastating wound, because the there are no major blood vessels in the thigh. There is skin and fat and muscle, and they bleed, but they don't bleed very, very heavily, not anywhere near what some of the other areas of the body bleed.

Then there is a set of wounds in the neck area, and one of them is a stab wound that enters into the internal carotid or -- internal jugular vein.

Thirdly, there is there are two wounds in the right side of the chest with a penetrate into the -- through the chest wall into the chest cavity and into the lung.

Lastly, there is a wound in the left flank, (witness indicates) here, somewhere like in this area, 45 inches above the heels in this area, (indicating) in the back side of the flank.

19 Q:

Left side above your belt, approximately five inches?

20 A:

Well, I wear my pants -- down in where like I'm showing.

21 Q:

Yes, sir.

22 A:

It's a short way above the hip bone in the back.

23 Q:

Yes.

24 A:

That's the last wound.

This wound is not very large in the skin, but it is the devastating wound that caused the death before any of the other wounds. Even though some of them may have been fatal or would have been fatal, this wound would have killed Ronald Goldman in short order.

When I mention these wounds, I would like to emphasize that my listing of these injuries does not correspond to the order in with a they were inflicted.

25 Q:

Were there wounds on both sides of the body?

26 A:

There were wounds on both sides of the body. The wound that I named the devastating wound on the left flank on the left side of the body, and then there were the stab wounds to the lung on the right side of the body. And there are wounds on both sides.

27 Q:

What accounts for wounds on both sides of the body?

28 A:

Well, there's movement. There is movement. There is an attempt to get away from this situation. Sometimes the victim presents the right side and sometimes presents the left side. And there's movement on the part of the assailant, as well, but very fast movement.

29 Q:

You said that you weren't putting the wounds in any sequence when you listed the groups.

Do you have any opinion on the nature of the struggle, in some general sense, when the thigh wound was inflicted and the wound to the aorta or the left flank was inflicted?

30 A:

The wound of the thigh and many of the superficial, or maybe most of the superficial cuts and bruises were inflicted at the outset.

In other words, that's how it started. That's during the active portion of the altercation -- of the -- of the encounter.

The wound to the left flank, I cannot say exactly when it happened, but it occurred early on. And the reason I'm saying that is because this wound entered through the skin, through a muscle adjacent to the vertebral column, and into the aorta.

The aorta is a garden-hose-diameter pipe, tube. The aorta comes directly out of the heart, makes a curve called the arch, runs to the left of the vertebral column, and then comes down into the lower abdominal area and bifurcates into each leg.

31 Q:

When you use the words vertebral column --

32 A:

The vertebral column is the backbone.

And within the aorta, with a is the large-caliber artery, there's very large pressure, so that when there's a hole in the aorta, the blood gushes out at fantastic speed.

And so, there are two holes in the aorta. There is one that is described in the report as half an inch, and then the knife went through the aorta a second time as it came out of the aorta, and caused another half-an-inch opening.

I measured it on a picture and I found that it is indeed five-eighths of an inch, but it's as close as half an inch as can be.

And the reason I'm saying that this wound was inflicted early on, is because there is very little blood in the chest from two wounds that injure the lung.

And the reason that there is so little blood in the chest is because the blood had already been running out of the aorta, however little time there was.

But as soon as there is a hole in the aorta, the pressure drops, just as -- exactly the same as would happen if you make two half-an-inch or two five-eighths-inch holes in your garden hose, you could not expect that the sprinkler at the end of the garden hose is going to generate a lot of water, because the water is running out before it gets to the sprinkler.

33 Q:

We'll talk about the aorta a little more in a moment.

But you mentioned a lot of blood coming out. Is that blood going out externally or is it internal, within the body?

34 A:

No. Most -- most of Mr. Goldman's blood was internal bleeding. And the bleeding, in the case of Mr. Goldman, was from the aorta; all other wounds combined caused little bleeding. But the bleeding from the aorta was overwhelming, and is, in fact, is what killed him. And this wound was bled internally.

KEY QUOTE
35 Q:

We'll talk more about it in a moment.

Let me go on to talk first in terms of the struggle about blunt-force trauma, and put on the board Exhibit 383.

And if you would, look at all the pictures, please.

36 (Witness complies.)
37 MR. MEDVENE:

Excuse me; I'm not going to put a board up.

I wonder if you can look at exhibits 1991, 93, -- excuse me -- 1991, 1993, 384, 1995, 1998, 1992, 1994, 385, 1996, and 1997 that I place before you, and just generally describe the nature of what those pictures depict. But we can do it in a general way?

38 A:

Mr. Goldman had, I believe, two stab wounds in the head. Again, small; again, penetrated through the scalp -- through the skin, the scalp, but did not go into the bone or through the bone.

I do not have the same numbers that you have indicated.

39 (The instrument herein referred to as a document with six photographs, collectively was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 383.)
40 (Counsel approaches witness stand.)
41 (Continuing.) Then, there is -- there are some cuts and bruises and scrapings. There is a scraping and a bruise in the area of the left lower chest. Maybe -- in fact, there are two there. It's a superficial scraping, where you can see that the uppermost layer of the skin, called the epidermis, is rubbed off. The epidermis is what a snake has. We are covered with a very thin membrane called the epidermis, and a snake is covered with this; and once a year, it sheds this. And we don't shed it, but we're covered with it, and it prevents -- its function is to prevent fluid loss. And if it's rubbed off, then there will be some fluid loss. But if the death follows in rapid succession, very quickly, then there is no fluid loss, but there's drying of the area, and it becomes brown. That's why these scrapings appear brown on the picture. It's the same thing as what you sustain when you fall and scuff your knee, and there is this little, white tissue membrane that you will rip off and throw away. This is called a scraping. And then with time, of course, if you are alive, then that will ooze and make a scab. In a dead person, it will just dry and become brown. So having said this, there is a scraping like this on the back of Mr. Goldman on the left side. There are two like that, actually, and they're not very large; they're a bit larger -- one them is a little larger than a silver dollar; then there is one that is quite small; then there is another one, a little bit higher, also not very large. And that's a superficial scraping on the left side of the back, roughly in the level of the elbow, so about where my finger is showing (indicating.)
42 Q:

Beyond the -- on the left of the back, looking --

43 A:

On the left.

44 Q:

-- looking forward, about 9 o'clock?

45 A:

Yes.

Then, there are scrapings on the left wrist and hand over the fingers. And over the left wrist, there is evidence that the epidermis is just the same as what you have on the knee when you fall.

The epidermis, as seen on the picture, IS hanging from one end, and that is due to grabbing and moving at the same time and pushing the epidermis up from the skin. And the epidermis, the upper layer of the skin, is still hanging on. And you can see it depicted on the picture.

There are some other scrapes on the wrist, in total, about two; and then one looks like it could be a fingernail mark, and on the back of the fingers, from grabbing and from holding and moving at the same time. So it would be severe moving, causing the upper layer of the skin to be scuffed off.

On the area between the right index finger and middle finger, there's a cut. And it's fairly large cut; I would say it is a little less than an inch, and it's a obviously a penetrating injury. And the fingers are spread like I'm showing, and you can see the cut.

There is on the front -- on the front, I mean this area that I'm showing -- the palm side of the right hand, on the index finger, in the -- just below or at the level of the first joint, there is what could be a fingernail mark, and what is possibly a fingernail mark on Ron Goldman's right index finger.

46 Q:

Let me -- you have one more?

47 A:

On the left hand, first on the thumb, there is a scraping, again, with some loose epidermis.

On the web of the thumb, there is a cut, and on the side of the palm, in extension of the little finger, where my right finger is, showing on the left palm there is a semicircular cut.

All the cuts in here are defensive wounds. "Defensive wound" means that the hand was used to ward off a blade that was coming towards him.

48 Q:

Let's move -- let's move, if we can, to what we've marked as a board -- as 382.

I want you to look at two photos and describe them. One is 2001 and one is 2002.

Could you tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury and the Court, what that indicates in terms of blows or what happened to Mr. Goldman?

Do you have 2001 and 2002 before you?

49 A:

I don't know with a ones those are.

50 (The instrument herein referred to as a document entitled "Sharp Force Injuries and Blunt Force Trauma to Head of Mr. Goldman," was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 382.)
51 (Counsel approaches witness stand.)
52 Q:

Um-hum, um-hum; yes. Those two.

53 A:

These are two superficial, small stab wounds in the head with a do not penetrate. That means they don't go into the -- through the skull; they just go into the skin, into the scalp.

54 Q:

And I'm going to ask you now about certain sharp-force injuries, and I'm going to put up a board. (Counsel displays board entitled "Sharp Force Injuries, blunt-force trauma to Face, Neck, and Right Shoulder of Mr. Goldman.)

55 Q:

(BY MR. MEDVENE) You have certain photos in front of you, Dr. Spitz. I wonder if you could -- this is Exhibit 378 -- if you might take the photos you have in front of you that are part of 378, and approach the board and describe for the jury the sharp-force injuries.

56 (The instrument herein referred to as A board containing six photographs, collectively, was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 378.)
57 DR. WERNER SPITZ:

You are talking about the ones that are on the board?

58 Q:

(BY MR. MEDVENE) Yeah, the ones on the board and the others that are part of that series.

59 A:

The left lower picture.

60 Q:

It's all right -- I think it's okay with the Court if you come up.

61 MR. PETROCELLI:

Take the pointer, Doctor.

62 DR. WERNER SPITZ:

The left lower picture shows a large gaping cut, stab wound, penetrating on the left side of the neck.

There is another stab wound -- also a stab wound, and they come together, see, because of the movement of both parties.

When a stab wound is made, the opening is much larger, often, than the knife -- of the blade itself, because as the stabbing occurs, the victim moves away, the hand of the assailant follows, and there is cutting, as well as stabbing.

63 Q:

(BY MR. MEDVENE) The doctor was speaking about Exhibit 2004.

64 A:

That's the reason why these wounds look as large as they are. They are stab wounds, but they are stab wounds with a cut with it.

And there are different superficial cuts around the -- or below and behind the left ear, indicating an attempt to cut. Because of the movement, the attempt was futile and ended up in a superficial cut. Eventually, a stab did occur behind the ear and on the left side of the neck.

65 Q:

You're going now to exhibit 1999?

66 A:

The Exhibit 99?

67 Q:

1999.

68 A:

1999 shows, again, the same stab wound as I've indicated on the left side of the neck, but primarily it shows the front of the neck with two horizontal superficial injuries that did not succeed in penetrating as deep slashes because of the movement.

69 Q:

Direct your attention now to Exhibit 2000.

70 A:

Exhibit 2000 shows one of the superficial stab wounds of the skull -- of the scalp in the area where the head is shaved, and a stab wound of the left back of the neck behind -- I'm sorry -- right back of the neck, behind or below, and behind the right ear and a cut of the ear itself of the back portion of the ear.

The stab/cut, stab, stab/cut, because there is stabbing and movement and cutting behind and below the right ear is associated with superficial extensions on both sides.

"Superficial" means just involving the skin.

71 Q:

If you'll remain there for a moment, Doctor, I'm going to put another board up.

72 (Counsel displays board entitled Sharp-Force Injuries to Left Flank, Left Thigh and Right Chest of Mr.` Goldman Blunt-Force Trauma.)
73 Q:

This is board is entitled Sharp-force Injuries to Left Flank, Left Thigh and Right Chest of Mr. Goldman Blunt-Force Trauma.

I direct your attention to that board, Doctor, which is Exhibit 386, and ask if you would start with the picture to the left, which is Exhibit 1988.

74 (The instrument herein referred to as Board entitled Sharp-Force Injuries to Left Flank, Left Thigh and Right Chest of Mr. Goldman Blunt-Force Trauma was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 386.)
75 (The instrument herein referred to as a side view photograph of a man's body was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 1988.)
76 DR. WERNER SPITZ:

This is Ron Goldman's flank area and lower chest area on the left side. The picture is confusing.

Here, this is a table he is on. This is his arm. So you are seeing this area (witness indicating to his own body.)

77 Q:

(BY MR. MEDVENE) Excuse me, Doctor. You said this is the table. He saw -- he was pointing to what appeared to be --

78 A:

This.

79 Q:

-- metal from the right of the picture, over about four, five inches, and then you were pointing to the flesh on the right of that?

80 A:

Yes.

This is his armpit up here. This is his pubic area down here. This is his left arm. And his left arm is next to the body, and the picture actually shows this area (witness indicating to his own body). The left arm shows all kinds of scrapes, superficial -- here you can see pieces on the top one -- you can see pieces of epidermis hanging loose.

These are all -- they all look like blunt injury. Here's a scraping, like a linear scraping.

This is not a stab wound.

Here is a black-and-blue mark, a superficial bruise.

81 Q:

That's to the right, about --

82 A:

On the back of the hand.

83 Q:

Yeah.

84 A:

On the back of the left hand and over the back of the forearm -- I say back of the forearm because normally this is the front of the body and this is the back of the body -- this is the back of the hand; this is the front of the hand. (Indicating.)

And the reason that this picture is important is because this is the devastating stab wound. It is not very impressive; it's not a very big stab wound; it is situated on the back of the left flank, and it is just above -- here is the hip -- and it is just above, and it is about (witness indicating to his own body) in this area.

85 Q:

On the diagram, it's about a quarter of an inch, a half an inch above the blue marker.

86 A:

It is about, yeah, three-quarters of an inch above the blue marker, the scale.

This is the stab wound that went into the aorta, the picture next and below it.

87 Q:

Excuse me. That's Exhibit 1990?

88 A:

1990 shows the cut in the front of the left thigh.

For orientation sake, here is the hand.

89 Q:

You were pointing over to the upper right-hand corner?

90 A:

Yes; the upper right-hand corner shows the -- some fingers, and below it -- so, in other words, if I were Mr. Brown, [sic] the stab wound would be about on my thigh, in the front, about where I'm showing.

91 Q:

You said Mr. Brown; you meant Mr. Goldman?

92 A:

Mr. Goldman. (Witness indicates to his own body.)

And it's a gaping wound, but it doesn't bleed very much. You can see the skin, the top layer; then the yellow underneath is fat; and then the red in the depth is muscle. And the cut goes into the muscle, but obviously not through the muscle. It's a slash more than a stab.

93 Q:

What's 1990?

94 A:

1990 shows --

95 Q:

Excuse me. That picture is 1987.

96 (The instrument herein referred to as a photograph of a man's body was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 1987.)
97 A:

1987 shows the back of Mr. Goldman's body, undressed. The head is shaved in the back because of the stab wound that was previously discussed.

And there is the slash of the back of the right side of the neck, which is seen there. And there is a scraping on the back of the left shoulder, a small one, with a I think is a scraping from some wall, the ground, or something.

And then there are two bruises over the middle of the back, of the middle of the lower back, with a are two black-and-blue marks, each about the size of a dime.

And because of the vertebral bodies having a little knob in the back, this is an area that was hit against some flat object, like a wall or the ground.

And then, more significantly is the exact location of the stab wound that caused the death.

And that is a stab wound of the back of the left flank. And it is not a very impressive wound, but this is the wound that went into the aorta.

98 Q:

All right. Direct your attention to 1989.

99 A:

1989 is a picture of the right side of Mr. Goldman, showing the lower portion of the chest and the two stab wounds, 1 and 2.

100 Q:

That's -- I'm sorry sir. That's at the top of the picture?

101 A:

That's at the top of the picture. Of what number?

102 Q:

1989.

103 A:

1989.

Two stab wounds in the lower chest, roughly about where my hand is showing (witness indicating to his own body); and these are the two that went into the right lung.

The rest of this only shows some scrapings, superficial scrapings, with a, as we discussed before, once they dried, they become brown, brown and firm, and little bit like leather.

104 (The instrument herein referred to as an autopsy photograph of a man's body with ruler was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 1989)
105 Q:

Directing your attention to 1986.

106 A:

1986 shows Mr. Goldman dressed with shirt, blue jeans and shoes, sneakers, and blood on the left pant leg from the slash with a I have shown earlier.

Mr. Goldman was upright when this happened, as is evident by the distribution of the blood.

107 Q:

And the exhibit I showed you earlier, was that Exhibit 1990?

108 A:

Yes. I was pointing to this. This is a slash and this is the bleeding from it.

109 (Indicating.)
110 Q:

Go to the picture on the far right; that's 1977. And can you tell us what that is?

111 A:

1977 is -- shows the cut or the stab wound in the aorta. And the aorta has been opened and is now not a tube, but flat, because it's been cut open to show one of the cuts. There were two.

I measured it and found it to be five-eighths of an inch. The other report describes it as half an inch, for what that's worth.

The aorta shows two little blood vessels down below the cut with a are the origins of two arteries that come out of the aorta, because the aorta gives rise to the entire blood system, the entire arterial system in the body, and the blood vessels come out of the aorta and they look just like that.

And what is significant is that the soft tissues, the fat and other soft tissues behind the aorta, is totally infiltrated with blood.

112 (The instrument herein referred to as a photograph of flesh was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 1977.)
113 Q:

How do you know that?

114 A:

Well, because this is all brown and -- or brownish-blue from blood. The normal color of this is yellow.

115 Q:

And this -- this photo was taken by the coroner's office?

116 A:

This photograph was taken by the coroner's office. All these photographs were taken by the coroner's office.

117 Q:

You mentioned infiltrated. What was infiltrated?

118 A:

Because of the cut in the aorta, the blood came out and spilled into this whole area. The picture was meant to show the cut in the aorta, but when the picture was photographed, the tissue around the aorta shows the blood and filtration.

119 Q:

You say this whole area. What do you mean "this whole area?" The whole area that's depicted?

120 A:

The whole area that is shown, yes, that is shown on the picture.

In fact, you can look through the cut and see the other side of the aorta, and even see that's infiltrated.

121 MR. MEDVENE:

Okay. Thank you, Doctor.

Temperature

procedural

Key Quotes (4)

Dr. Spitz
This wound is not very large in the skin, but it is the devastating wound that caused the death before any of the other wounds. Even though some of them may have been fatal or would have been fatal, this wound would have killed Ronald Goldman in short order.
Identifies the aortic stab wound as the definitive cause of death, establishing sequence and severity among multiple wounds.
Dr. Spitz
you could not expect that the sprinkler at the end of the garden hose is going to generate a lot of water, because the water is running out before it gets to the sprinkler.
Memorable analogy explaining why the aortic wound caused rapid blood pressure collapse, supporting the conclusion that the aorta wound preceded the lung wounds.
Dr. Spitz
She was bent forward; I think she was (demonstrating). She was even closer, I think, a foot above the ground, because the blood comes out, gushes out under great pressure. There is no blood in the vast area around; there is blood down below.
Reconstructs Nicole's body position at time of death, explaining the blood distribution evidence at the crime scene.
Dr. Spitz
Most -- most of Mr. Goldman's blood was internal bleeding. And the bleeding, in the case of Mr. Goldman, was from the aorta; all other wounds combined caused little bleeding.
Clarifies that Goldman's death was from internal hemorrhage, not visible external blood loss — an important forensic distinction.

Evidence (11)

Plaintiffs' 383
Document with six photographs of Goldman wounds
introduced and discussed
Plaintiffs' 382
Board entitled 'Sharp Force Injuries and Blunt Force Trauma to Head of Mr. Goldman'
introduced and discussed
Plaintiffs' 378
Board containing six photographs of sharp-force injuries to face, neck, and right shoulder of Goldman
introduced and discussed
Plaintiffs' 386
Board entitled 'Sharp-Force Injuries to Left Flank, Left Thigh and Right Chest of Mr. Goldman Blunt-Force Trauma'
introduced and discussed
Plaintiffs' 1977
Photograph of Goldman's aorta cut open by coroner showing two incision wounds and blood infiltration of surrounding tissue
introduced and discussed in detail
Plaintiffs' 1986
Photograph of Goldman fully dressed with blood on left pant leg from thigh slash
discussed
+ 5 more

Notable Exchanges (3)

Edward MedveneDr. Spitz
Spitz physically demonstrates Goldman's wounds on his own body repeatedly throughout testimony, and assists Medvene in standing up at one point, suggesting a collaborative, professor-student dynamic between expert and examining attorney.
collaborative
Robert BakerDr. Spitz
Baker interjects during demonstration of Nicole's head position ('With the left hand underneath his nose?'), prompting Spitz to clarify the assailant used either the hand or hair to pull the neck taut for the killing wound.
clarifying
Edward MedveneDr. Spitz
Spitz accidentally refers to Goldman as 'Mr. Brown' while demonstrating the thigh wound location on his own body; Medvene gently corrects him.
light

Light Moments (2)

Dr. Spitz
Spitz accidentally calls Ron Goldman 'Mr. Brown' — a slip likely mixing up the victims' names — and Medvene quietly corrects him.
Dr. Spitz
Spitz compares human epidermis to snakeskin, explaining 'a snake is covered with this; and once a year, it sheds this. And we don't shed it' — a colorful digression during wound description.

Witness Demeanor

(Witness demonstrates.) — showing Nicole's bent-forward position
(Witness assists Mr. Medvene to stand up.)
(Witness complies.) — reviewing photographs
(Counsel approaches witness stand.) — repeated throughout
(Witness indicating to his own body.) — repeated throughout testimony as Spitz uses himself as anatomical reference
(Witness indicating to his own body.) — pointing to location of devastating aortic stab wound

Objections

None recorded
Proceeding 8208 • 121 utterances • Defense witness
Civil Trial
Department 103
⚖️ Start
📂 NOV 8, 1996 📄 Direct examination of Dr. Wern
NOV 8, 1996 KRT DvH TD