Direct examination of Kato Kaelin (part 2)

📄 Direct examination of Kato Kaelin (part 2) — Tuesday, November 19, 1996

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C:\DEPT103\CIVIL\1996\NOV\19\DIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-KATO-KAE.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 18 of 57

◀ Recess and court instructions Exhibit admission and housekeeping ▶

Witness: Brian "Kato" Kaelin
Examiner: Daniel Petrocelli
Called by: Defense • Date: Tuesday, November 19, 1996 • Utterances: 424

Kato Kaelin testifies about the night of June 12, 1994: the thumping noises he heard against his wall, his two trips to investigate behind the garage, his interaction with OJ Simpson upon return from McDonald's, and OJ stopping him from touching a duffel bag he'd never seen before. He also testifies about June 13 — seeing blood seeping through tissue on OJ's finger, and OJ's attempt to tell Kato that he had seen OJ enter the house after McDonald's, which Kato flatly denies.

# 1 (Break.)

# 2 (Jurors resume their respective seats.)

# 3 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) Let me back up a second.

When you heard the noises against the wall --

# 4 MR. BAKER:

I'm going to object to this exhibit because there's some inaccuracy on that exhibit.

# 5 MR. PETROCELLI:

I'm only using it for the location of the rooms, Mr. Baker, not the --

# 6 MR. BAKER:

Everybody can see everything.

# 7 MR. PETROCELLI:

I don't think --

# 8 MR. BAKER:

The first floor protection plan is inaccurate.

# 9 MR. PETROCELLI:

It was used in the other case.

# 10 MR. BAKER:

That doesn't make it any more accurate.

# 11 MR. PETROCELLI:

I'm going to be using it to refer to locations of particular rooms, okay?

# 12 THE COURT:

You may.

# 13 MR. PETROCELLI:

Thank you, Your Honor.

By the way, that number is Exhibit 199, Mr. Baker.

# 14 MR. BAKER:

Thank you.

# 15 (The instrument herein described as a diagram entitled "360 North Rockingham Avenue," with a legend at the bottom, was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 199.)

# 16 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) Was this the first time you had ever heard noises against the room of your wall (sic)?

# 17 A:

Yes.

# 18 Q:

Was this the first time you had ever gone to investigate sounds behind your wall?

# 19 A:

Yes.

# 20 Q:

Now, when you were walking around from the back -- I want to make sure we understand your testimony -- I asked you if you saw any lights on in the downstairs of the house.

You remember those questions?

# 21 A:

Yes, I do.

# 22 Q:

Okay. So when you left your room -- and I'm referring to this exhibit.

# 23 MR. FOSTER:

199.

# 24 MR. PETROCELLI:

199.

# 25 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) To be more specific, did you see any lights in the family room?

# 26 A:

No, I don't believe I did.

# 27 Q:

If lights were on in the family room, would you have seen them?

# 28 A:

Yes.

# 29 Q:

Did you see any lights in the living room?

# 30 A:

No.

# 31 Q:

If lights were on in the living room, would you have seen them?

# 32 A:

Yes.

# 33 Q:

Now, we come around, and you have this den here. Did you see lights on in the den?

# 34 A:

No.

# 35 Q:

Would you have seen lights if they were on?

# 36 A:

I believe so, yes.

# 37 Q:

And what about in the kitchen breakfast area, see lights on there?

# 38 A:

No.

# 39 Q:

Would you be able to see lights on?

# 40 A:

I believe so, yes.

# 41 Q:

When the limousine driver pulled in, did the dog, Chachi, run out of the gate?

# 42 A:

No.

# 43 Q:

And what happened now, picking up the story, when the limousine driver pulled in, what did you then do?

# 44 A:

Okay, I was making sure that Chachi was safe. He was crossing in front of the limo, then he, Chachi, laid down in the grass, and the limo driver -- limo driver pulled up to the front door entrance.

# 45 Q:

Did he get out?

# 46 A:

Yes.

# 47 Q:

This is the first time you actually saw him?

# 48 A:

Yes, it is.

# 49 Q:

Okay. Continue; what happened next?

# 50 A:

So he got out of the car, and I introduced myself and he introduced himself, and I had some conversation with him about the -- I told him about the noises I had heard. Then I told him that I had this light and I was going to go back there. And I ended up going back there. I also asked him in other parts of the conversation where -- I was asking him if O.J. overslept.

# 51 Q:

Why did you ask the limousine driver if Mr. Simpson had overslept?

# 52 MR. BAKER:

Objection, state of mind is irrelevant.

# 53 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 54 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) What did the limousine driver say in response to that?

# 55 MR. BAKER:

Hearsay.

# 56 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 57 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

I don't remember offhand.

# 58 MR. PETROCELLI:

Objection has been sustained.

# 59 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) After you had some conversation with the limousine driver, you said you went to look again behind the garage?

# 60 A:

Yes, I did.

# 61 Q:

Now, up to that point in time, had you seen Mr. Simpson since the Bentley?

# 62 A:

I don't believe so, no.

# 63 Q:

Since your trip to McDonald's?

# 64 A:

Correct.

# 65 Q:

And what did you then do when you went behind the house again?

Let me put up the exhibit.

# 66 (Exhibit 116 displayed.)

# 67 Q:

You can tell us, though.

# 68 A:

This is my second trip. What I did is I went a little further this time.

# 69 Q:

And why?

# 70 A:

I felt a little safer. The limo driver was there. I also had said to Chachi, come on, Chachi, come with me, and he just laid there. I just said to the limo driver, I said great watch dog, huh, and I think he laughed.

Then I went back there.

# 71 Q:

Why did you want Chachi to come with you?

# 72 A:

You know, a dog, if there's a prowler, it would frighten him I believe. I thought it was safer to have a dog.

# 73 Q:

You ended up going alone?

# 74 A:

Yes.

# 75 Q:

With the same light?

# 76 A:

Correct.

# 77 Q:

Okay. And can you -- by going to Exhibit 116, can you point out to the ladies and gentlemen of the jury how far you went?

# 78 (Exhibit 116 displayed.)

# 79 A:

This time I went down the pathway, I moved the gate again and I picked it up, put it down. There's another gate there, here, about here, and I went about three to five feet in front of it, the gate.

# 80 Q:

And where on Exhibit 116 did you hear the noises?

# 81 A:

Down here.

# 82 Q:

And as far as you went was where?

# 83 A:

Right about here.

# 84 Q:

And you're pointing to the end of the garage?

# 85 A:

Correct.

# 86 Q:

Okay. Now, on your return trip, the second time, what did you do? You turned around and did what?

# 87 A:

Turned around and I put back that gate.

# 88 Q:

Yeah?

# 89 A:

And I went to the limo driver.

# 90 Q:

Okay. And when you went back to the limo driver, what was he doing?

# 91 A:

I don't remember.

# 92 Q:

Did you see anything at all on your way back from the back of the garage?

# 93 A:

I believe I saw O.J.

# 94 Q:

Okay?

# 95 A:

And he was outside -- I don't know if he was coming in from the door or not but he was just outside.

# 96 Q:

And do you know what he was doing?

# 97 A:

No.

# 98 Q:

Did you notice any luggage anywhere?

# 99 A:

Yes, there was a golf bag right here at this doorway.

# 100 Q:

Yeah?

# 101 A:

And on my second trip I noticed there was a duffel bag right here.

# 102 Q:

You're pointing to . . .

# 103 A:

Where the Bentley would be -- in the back of the Bentley.

# 104 Q:

Back of the Bentley. And you noticed that bag when?

# 105 A:

On my second trip.

# 106 Q:

When you say on your second --

# 107 A:

Second trip.

# 108 Q:

To or from the back of the house?

# 109 A:

This is coming back from the house.

# 110 Q:

The second time?

# 111 A:

Correct.

# 112 Q:

Okay.

# 113 MR. PETROCELLI:

Can you put on the next picture, Steve. What exhibit number is that, 2197?

# 114 (The instrument herein described as a Photograph of the Bentley automobile belonging to O.J. Simpson was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 2197.)

# 115 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) This is a photograph taken later on. Do you recognize what's in the photo?

# 116 A:

Yes.

# 117 Q:

What is it?

# 118 A:

It's the Bentley.

# 119 Q:

I'm not sure if you can tell from this photo, let us know if you can, point out to the jury the area where you saw this bag.

# 120 A:

The bag would have been under this taillight, about here.

# 121 (Indicating to exhibit.)

# 122 Q:

And, if you could, sort of transpose that onto Exhibit 116. And I know these things may not be to scale, just do your best.

# 123 A:

Right. If it would be parked right here, it would be out on this side here, the bag.

# 124 Q:

So you're pointing to the area above the A in driveway?

# 125 A:

Yes.

# 126 (Indicating to Exhibit 116.)

# 127 A:

In back of the Bentley where it would be parked, correct.

# 128 Q:

Had you ever seen that bag before?

# 129 A:

Never.

# 130 Q:

When you saw the bag, did you go up to it?

# 131 A:

At one point I was going towards it.

# 132 Q:

On your trip back from the garage?

# 133 A:

No, I just walked right by it.

# 134 Q:

You just observed it?

# 135 A:

Yes.

# 136 Q:

Did you do anything to it?

# 137 A:

No.

# 138 Q:

When you saw Mr. Simpson, did you have any conversation with him, did he -- you can answer yes or no.

# 139 A:

Yes.

# 140 Q:

What did he say and what did you say?

# 141 A:

I had told him about the noises I had heard.

# 142 Q:

Tell me what you said?

# 143 A:

I said, hey, you know, I heard these noises behind my room, I thought it was an earthquake but it wasn't an earthquake, my picture moved, I think something was back there.

# 144 Q:

And what did he say?

# 145 A:

At one point he had said well, I'll go one way, you go one way to check on the noise.

# 146 Q:

Okay.

# 147 A:

I had said, I've got this lousy flashlight here and it could only go so far. And the limo driver had already checked 'cause I asked him in a previous conversation, and he didn't have one, but he kept looking in his glove box, I believe, for a better flashlight, the limo driver, and we didn't find one.

# 148 Q:

Then in this conversation with Mr. Simpson you said something to him about a flashlight?

# 149 A:

Correct.

# 150 Q:

What did you say and what did he say?

# 151 A:

I said, this is the only flashlight I have, I hope we have a better one, if we have a better one and he said he'd go and check if there was a better flashlight in the house.

# 152 Q:

And then what happened?

# 153 A:

Well, at one point he was motioning to which side he was going to go and cover and which side I would go around, and then I mentioned again that this is a lousy flashlight, so that he went into the house to check -- to find --

# 154 Q:

Did you go with him?

# 155 A:

Yes.

# 156 Q:

And tell me what happened once you were inside the house?

# 157 A:

Once I'm inside the house, there's an opening to the kitchen, and I would stand right here, and he'd be in the kitchen there.

# 158 MR. PETROCELLI:

Watch out.

# 159 (Indicating to Mr. Kaelin's use of the pointer in the path of the jury box.)

# 160 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

Lawsuit.

# 161 Q:

You might want to step back.

# 162 A:

So I -- and I walked into the kitchen area so I could see him in the kitchen, and then he went and he looked at the clock and said, it's that late, I got to go.

# 163 Q:

Did you get into the kitchen?

# 164 A:

I was at the doorway of the kitchen. I could see into the kitchen.

# 165 Q:

Let me get this straight. You followed him into the house?

# 166 A:

Into the house.

# 167 Q:

And then he went into the kitchen?

# 168 A:

Correct.

# 169 Q:

And you got to the threshold?

# 170 A:

Yes.

# 171 Q:

And what did you see him do inside the kitchen?

# 172 A:

Kind of hurried, and walked -- and he looked up at the clock and said, oh, my God, it's that time, I got to go.

# 173 Q:

And then what happened?

# 174 A:

Then he came outside to the foyer area.

# 175 Q:

And what happened?

# 176 A:

And then he was getting ready to leave.

# 177 Q:

Did the two of you then leave the house?

# 178 A:

Well, we were in the -- by the doorway.

# 179 Q:

Inside or outside?

# 180 A:

Inside, yes.

# 181 Q:

Did you walk out?

# 182 A:

Yes.

# 183 Q:

From the time he said, oh, I got to go, did you -- did you then immediately go out with him?

# 184 A:

No, because he had mentioned to me in the foyer to set the alarm.

# 185 Q:

Oh? Tell us about that.

# 186 A:

So I was still sort of in the foyer area, and he said, well, set the alarm. I said, I don't know the alarm code. I said, you do. And that was the last --

# 187 Q:

Had he ever asked you to set the alarm before?

# 188 A:

No.

# 189 Q:

Did you ever have anything to do with the alarm?

# 190 A:

No.

# 191 Q:

After he asked you to set the alarm and you said you didn't know how, what happened then?

# 192 A:

Well, I assume that he was setting the alarm, and I started to walk and I saw that the duffel bag was still there.

# 193 Q:

You're now outside the house?

# 194 A:

Now I'm outside the house.

# 195 Q:

Is he outside the house?

# 196 A:

Yes.

# 197 Q:

Let me stop you right there.

When Mr. Simpson was in the kitchen and you were at the threshold of the kitchen, did you see him bleed?

# 198 A:

No.

# 199 Q:

Did you see him dab blood onto a paper towel or tissue?

# 200 A:

No.

# 201 Q:

Did you see bleeding onto a counter?

# 202 A:

No.

# 203 Q:

Had you seen any blood?

# 204 A:

No.

# 205 Q:

When you got outside with Mr. Simpson, then what happened?

# 206 A:

Okay. Now that I thought that he was setting the alarm, I came out this way and I noticed that the bag was still there, and I thought that's part of the luggage, and I started to walk towards the bag, to get the duffel bag, to pack it.

# 207 Q:

And then what happened?

# 208 A:

And then he said to me, no, Kato, I'll get that, I'll get that.

# 209 Q:

Who said that?

# 210 A:

O.J.

# 211 Q:

What did he say?

# 212 A:

No, Kato, I'll get that, I'll get that.

KEY QUOTE

# 213 Q:

Then what did he do?

# 214 A:

Then I turned around, and he came that way and I -- then I never saw what happened.

# 215 MR. PETROCELLI:

And you may resume the witness stand.

Let me get an exhibit. This has been previously marked as Exhibit 899?

# 216 MR. FOSTER:

Yes.

# 217 (Displaying Exhibit 899.)

# 218 Q:

Let me show you what has been marked as Exhibit 899.

Do you see this bag?

# 219 A:

Yes.

# 220 Q:

Is this the bag that you saw behind the Bentley?

# 221 A:

No.

# 222 Q:

Okay. Have you ever seen this bag before?

# 223 A:

No.

# 224 Q:

When you had the -- withdrawn.

When you came out of the house, Mr. Simpson went to get the bag, then what happened?

# 225 A:

Then he got into the limousine.

# 226 Q:

Okay.

# 227 A:

And they were off.

# 228 Q:

Now, how did they get out of the property?

# 229 A:

There's another gate box.

# 230 Q:

Yeah. You want to point it out?

# 231 (Witness indicates to Exhibit 116.)

# 232 A:

So they got into the limousine, and it's in the driveway, and I went over here to the gate control box, and I opened it up.

# 233 Q:

Then what happened?

# 234 A:

They drove off.

# 235 Q:

They went out the Rockingham gate?

# 236 A:

Correct.

# 237 Q:

Which direction did the car turn, if you know?

# 238 A:

They were going to the airport, so I imagine left.

# 239 Q:

You did see them turn?

# 240 A:

I waited for the gate to close so I believe I did.

# 241 Q:

Did the dog run out?

# 242 A:

No.

# 243 MR. PETROCELLI:

You may resume the witness stand.

# 244 (Witness complies.)

# 245 Q:

Now, couple of questions about what you just testified to.

From the time that you last saw Mr. Simpson at the Bentley, after McDonald's, until the time that you next saw him in this area backing up the car -- are you with me?

# 246 A:

Yes.

# 247 Q:

During that period of time.

# 248 A:

Um-hum.

# 249 Q:

Did you have any contact with him at all?

# 250 A:

No.

# 251 Q:

Did you talk to him?

# 252 A:

No.

# 253 Q:

Did you hear his voice?

# 254 A:

No.

# 255 Q:

Did you hear any activity coming from the house?

# 256 A:

No.

# 257 Q:

Did you hear the chipping of golf balls?

# 258 A:

No.

# 259 Q:

Did you hear any golf balls scalding play equipment or hitting anything?

# 260 A:

No.

# 261 Q:

Did you hear doors open and close?

# 262 MR. BAKER:

Your Honor, there's no foundation.

# 263 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 264 A:

No.

# 265 Q:

Did you hear any sound at all indicating his presence on the property?

# 266 MR. BAKER:

No foundation, he heard any sound from where he ever was.

# 267 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 268 A:

No.

# 269 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) You were in your room this entire time that we've been talking about, right?

# 270 A:

Yes.

# 271 Q:

Did you hear or see any activity in the backyard?

# 272 A:

No.

# 273 Q:

And you could see up into Mr. Simpson's room and the light was on?

# 274 A:

Yes.

# 275 Q:

Did you see or hear anything up there?

# 276 A:

No.

# 277 Q:

Any TV flashing?

# 278 A:

No.

# 279 Q:

Mr. Simpson had been to your room how many times that evening?

# 280 MR. BAKER:

Asked and answered, Your Honor.

# 281 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 282 A:

Twice.

# 283 Q:

Had he -- Did he come to your room again?

# 284 A:

No.

# 285 Q:

Now, when you had the conversation with Mr. Simpson about, you know, the sounds that you heard, did Mr. Simpson tell you to call the police?

# 286 A:

No.

# 287 Q:

Did he tell you to call Westec?

# 288 A:

No.

# 289 Q:

Did he tell you to talk to Arnelle when she came home, Arnelle, his daughter, to make sure that she was safe?

# 290 A:

No.

# 291 Q:

Did he say anything to you about what you should do in regard to those noises?

# 292 A:

No.

# 293 Q:

When you came back from McDonald's with Mr. Simpson, do you recall what he was wearing?

# 294 A:

I believe it was the same outfit, the dark sweat suit.

# 295 Q:

After Mr. Simpson and the limousine driver left the property, what did you do?

# 296 A:

I went right to my room.

# 297 Q:

What did you do?

# 298 A:

I called up Rachel.

# 299 Q:

And you talked to her for awhile?

# 300 A:

Yes, I did.

# 301 Q:

And then what happened?

# 302 A:

Then there's a period during our conversation where I have call waiting, and the call waiting beep happened, and the call waiting -- I said, Rachel, I've got another call. So I got the call and it was O.J. and he said, I didn't alarm the house, did --

THE COURT REPORTER: Excuse me. Didn't alarm the house?

# 303 Q:

What did you say?

# 304 A:

I went, oh, I didn't know the alarm code.

# 305 Q:

What did he say?

# 306 A:

He said, well, here's the alarm code, this is what you do, and he gave me the code and said, then the light will go, I believe red, that means it's set.

# 307 Q:

Did you write the code down?

# 308 A:

Yes.

# 309 Q:

And then what happened?

# 310 A:

And then I got back on my other call and told Rachel, I'll call you right back again.

# 311 Q:

Okay. Now, has Mr. Simpson ever beeped you on your line before?

# 312 A:

No.

# 313 Q:

And other than what he did in the foyer minutes before when he left the property, had he ever asked you to set the alarm?

# 314 A:

No.

# 315 Q:

What did you then do?

# 316 A:

After I set the alarm?

# 317 Q:

Yes.

# 318 A:

Okay. So I set the alarm, I came back to the room, and I called Rachel.

# 319 Q:

Set the alarm. Where did you set the alarm?

# 320 A:

I made the same exact -- shall I go up?

# 321 Q:

Yes. Show the jury where the alarm pad was located.

# 322 A:

Now, after I told Rachel, I went back up this way, came this way, and I went right here, and it's right there by the door.

# 323 (Indicating to Exhibit 116.)

# 324 Q:

Is it on the outside?

# 325 A:

Yes.

# 326 Q:

You did not have to enter the house?

# 327 A:

No.

# 328 Q:

And then you went back to your room?

# 329 A:

Yes.

# 330 Q:

And then ultimately you went to sleep?

# 331 A:

Well, I talked for quite a bit yet.

# 332 Q:

Okay. You may resume the witness stand.

Now, I want to turn to the next evening, Monday, June 13.

Were you at a friend's house?

# 333 A:

Yes.

# 334 Q:

Okay. And who is that friend, by the way?

# 335 A:

Grant Cramer.

# 336 Q:

At some point while you're at Grant Cramer's house, did you get a phone call?

# 337 A:

Yes, I did.

# 338 Q:

Who was it from?

# 339 A:

I believe it was Howard Weitzman.

# 340 Q:

Was anyone else on that call?

# 341 A:

O.J.

# 342 Q:

Mr. Simpson?

# 343 A:

Correct.

# 344 Q:

And tell us what Mr. Simpson and Mr. Weitzman said to you in that call.

# 345 MR. BAKER:

Objection, hearsay.

# 346 MR. PETROCELLI:

These are admissions, Your Honor.

# 347 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 348 MR. BAKER:

It can't be an admission to Mr. Weitzman, he cannot make that admission.

# 349 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 350 Q:

You may answer.

# 351 A:

I believe, to the best of my recollection, there was going to be a meeting they wanted me to go to, to talk to lawyers.

# 352 Q:

Did they ask you any questions?

# 353 A:

I think they asked me about the events of everything that happened.

# 354 Q:

And you answered their questions?

# 355 A:

Yes.

# 356 Q:

Now, did you then leave Mr. Cramer's house?

# 357 A:

At some time, yes, I did.

# 358 Q:

Where did you go?

# 359 A:

I went back to Simpson's house.

# 360 Q:

By the way, did you know who Howard Weitzman was in that telephone call?

# 361 A:

I knew he was a lawyer. I didn't know what he looked like.

# 362 Q:

Now, after you left Mr. Cramer's house, where did you go?

# 363 A:

Back to the house, to Rockingham.

# 364 Q:

Was this evening now?

# 365 A:

Yes.

# 366 Q:

Monday, June 13?

# 367 A:

Correct.

# 368 Q:

Okay. And when you entered the house, what did you see?

# 369 A:

It was full of media everywhere, and then I went into the house and there was groups of people sitting in the living room area in front of the TV.

# 370 Q:

Inside the house?

# 371 A:

Inside the house.

# 372 Q:

There weren't media in the house?

# 373 A:

No.

# 374 Q:

You meant outside?

# 375 A:

There was media outside, parked outside.

# 376 Q:

Now, in the house what did you see?

# 377 A:

Inside the house everybody was watching TV and shouting to the events of the day of saying, oh -- making comment to the reporter's.

# 378 Q:

You mean on television?

# 379 A:

Television.

# 380 Q:

They were shouting at the television.

Was Mr. Simpson there?

# 381 A:

Yes.

# 382 Q:

And what was he doing?

# 383 A:

He was sitting in a chair watching it also.

# 384 Q:

And did you notice anything about him?

# 385 A:

Yes.

# 386 Q:

What did you notice?

# 387 A:

I noticed on his finger he had a tissue paper and there was blood dripping -- blood seeping through.

KEY QUOTE

# 388 Q:

Now, did there come a time that evening that you had a conversation with Mr. Simpson?

# 389 A:

Yes.

# 390 Q:

And how long after you got there did you have that conversation?

# 391 A:

The time frame -- I don't know exactly how long. I'd -- you know, I'm guessing 10 or so minutes.

# 392 Q:

Where did that conversation occur?

# 393 A:

In the kitchen.

# 394 Q:

Who was present in the kitchen during that conversation?

# 395 A:

I believe it was just us.

# 396 Q:

Who is us?

# 397 A:

O.J. and Kato.

# 398 Q:

And tell me what was said.

# 399 A:

He had said, you saw me go into the house after McDonald's, and I had said, no, I didn't. He had said that I saw him walk into the house from McDonald's.

# 400 Q:

O.J.?

# 401 A:

O.J. said that to me. He said, Kato, you saw me go into the house from McDonald's.

KEY QUOTE

# 402 Q:

And what did you say?

# 403 A:

I said, no, I didn't.

# 404 Q:

Why did you say that?

# 405 A:

Because I didn't.

# 406 Q:

Now, the next day, on June 14, Tuesday, were you interviewed by any lawyers?

# 407 A:

Yes, I was.

# 408 Q:

And who were the lawyers who interviewed you?

# 409 A:

I was interviewed by Skip Taft and Robert Shapiro.

# 410 Q:

Mr. Shapiro here in the courtroom today?

# 411 A:

Right there.

# 412 Q:

And did Mr. Shapiro ask you what time you heard the noises?

# 413 A:

Yes, he did.

# 414 Q:

And what did you tell Mr. Shapiro?

# 415 A:

In my interview I said, I heard it between 10:40 and 10:50.

KEY QUOTE

# 416 Q:

Was that based on looking at a watch or a clock?

# 417 A:

No.

# 418 Q:

Was it an estimate?

# 419 A:

Yes, it was.

# 420 Q:

Was that the first time you'd been interviewed by lawyers?

# 421 A:

Yes, it was.

# 422 Q:

And did you understand Mr. Shapiro was the lawyer for Mr. Simpson?

# 423 A:

Yes, I did.

# 424 MR. PETROCELLI:

No further questions, Your Honor.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (5)

Brian Kaelin

No, Kato, I'll get that, I'll get that.

Kaelin is quoting Simpson stopping him from picking up an unfamiliar duffel bag behind the Bentley — widely understood as the bag possibly containing bloody clothes or the murder weapon.

Brian Kaelin

I noticed on his finger he had a tissue paper and there was blood dripping -- blood seeping through.

Kaelin's observation of OJ bleeding on June 13, the day after the murders, corroborating the cut finger evidence.

Brian Kaelin

O.J. said that to me. He said, Kato, you saw me go into the house from McDonald's. And I said, no, I didn't. Because I didn't.

OJ's attempt to coach Kaelin's memory about his whereabouts — suggesting consciousness of guilt and an effort to establish an alibi.

Brian Kaelin

Lawsuit.

Kaelin's spontaneous joke after nearly hitting the jury box with a pointer — a rare moment of levity that also reveals his self-aware, performative personality.

Brian Kaelin

I said, I heard it between 10:40 and 10:50.

The timeline estimate Kaelin gave to Shapiro places the thumping noises squarely in the window of the murders — this is one of the most critical data points in the entire case.

Evidence (4)

Plaintiffs' 199

Diagram of 360 North Rockingham Avenue, used to orient rooms and locations

introduced, used for spatial testimony

Plaintiffs' 116

Photograph/diagram of the Rockingham property showing driveway, garage, and pathways

displayed repeatedly, witness points to locations of bag, noises, and gate

Plaintiffs' 2197

Photograph of OJ Simpson's Bentley automobile

introduced, used to identify where the duffel bag was located

Plaintiffs' 899

Photograph of a bag — Kaelin says this is NOT the bag he saw behind the Bentley

shown to witness, denied as match

Notable Exchanges (4)

Daniel Petrocelli•Brian Kaelin

Kaelin describes OJ stopping him from touching the unfamiliar duffel bag, saying 'No, Kato, I'll get that' — Petrocelli methodically extracts that Kaelin had never seen the bag before and did not touch it.

strategic

Brian Kaelin•O.J. Simpson

On June 13, OJ tells Kaelin 'you saw me go into the house after McDonald's' — Kaelin denies it three times, stating plainly 'because I didn't.'

revealing

Daniel Petrocelli•Brian Kaelin

Petrocelli walks through a complete negative inventory — did you hear doors? Golf balls? Any sound? Activity in the yard? — and Kaelin answers no to every item, underscoring the gap in OJ's whereabouts.

strategic

Robert Baker•Hiroshi Fujisaki

Baker objects to using the floor plan exhibit claiming inaccuracy; Petrocelli argues he's only using it for room locations; Fujisaki allows it.

procedural

Light Moments (2)

Brian Kaelin

Kaelin nearly hits the jury box with a pointer while demonstrating on Exhibit 116, then quips 'Lawsuit.'

Brian Kaelin

Kaelin tells the limo driver, gesturing toward the unresponsive dog Chachi: 'great watch dog, huh' — and the limo driver laughed.

Credibility Attacks (2)

⚔ Brian Kaelin

prior inconsistent statement / estimate vs. certainty

Petrocelli elicits that Kaelin's 10:40-10:50 noise estimate given to Shapiro was not based on a clock or watch but was a guess — potentially undermining its precision, though Petrocelli appears to be preemptively neutralizing this rather than attacking it.

⚔ Brian Kaelin

witness coaching by OJ Simpson

OJ's June 13 statement ('Kato, you saw me go into the house from McDonald's') functions as an implicit attempt to alter Kaelin's account — Kaelin's denial of it reflects well on his credibility while highlighting OJ's consciousness of guilt.

Witness Demeanor

Spontaneously jokes ('Lawsuit') when nearly hitting the jury with a pointer — comfortable, slightly performative

Answers the negative inventory questions (did you hear any sound?) in short, unequivocal monosyllables

Uses informal, conversational phrasing throughout ('lousy flashlight,' 'great watch dog, huh')

When recounting OJ's coaching attempt, Kaelin is flat and direct: 'I said, no, I didn't. Because I didn't.'

Objections

8 objections (2 sustained, 5 overruled)

Proceeding 8344 • 424 utterances • Defense witness

Civil Trial

Department 103