Cross-examination of Kato Kaelin

📄 Cross-examination of Kato Kaelin — Tuesday, November 19, 1996

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CIVIL\1996\NOV\19\CROSS-EXAMINATION-OF-KATO-KAEL.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 18 of 57

◀ Redirect examination timing Recross approval ▶

Witness: Brian "Kato" Kaelin
Examiner: Daniel Petrocelli
Called by: Defense • Date: Tuesday, November 19, 1996 • Utterances: 234

Petrocelli conducts a brisk redirect to rehabilitate Kaelin after Baker's cross-examination, focusing on three things: correcting the timeline (Kaelin's estimate of 9:40-9:45 return from McDonald's was close to the 9:37 cell record; the thumps-to-phone-hangup interval was consistently 2-5 minutes across all prior proceedings), discrediting the police notes Baker relied on (Kaelin never saw or approved them), and revealing that Kaelin turned down $500,000 to $1,000,000 in offers for his story while Baker's team never once contacted him. A minor courtroom flare-up erupts over a typewritten police interview Petrocelli tries to introduce, with Baker refusing to accept Petrocelli's characterization of the document.

# 1 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) Has Mr. Baker ever invited you to his hotel?

# 2 A:

No.

# 3 MR. BAKER:

I don't have a hotel.

# 4 Q:

Has he ever invited you to his office?

# 5 A:

No.

# 6 Q:

Has he ever called you?

# 7 A:

No.

# 8 Q:

Has any member of the defense team ever talked to you?

# 9 A:

No.

# 10 Q:

Have they ever called you to say we want to interview you to get to the truth?

# 11 A:

No.

# 12 Q:

Not once?

# 13 A:

No.

# 14 Q:

This bathroom window Mr. Baker just asked you about, does it have a screen on it?

# 15 A:

I believe so, yes.

# 16 Q:

Did you ever remove the screen?

# 17 A:

No.

# 18 Q:

You ever see it removed?

# 19 A:

No, I don't think so.

# 20 Q:

Was the screen on there June 12 and June 13, 1994?

# 21 A:

I believe so.

# 22 Q:

Now, Mr. Baker asked you questions about --

# 23 MR. PETROCELLI:

Steve, put this on the Elmo.

# 24 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) He asked you questions about what you told Mr. Shapiro when you were first interviewed about when you came back from McDonald's, and he said you told Mr. Shapiro you got back at 10 o'clock, remember that?

# 25 A:

Yes.

# 26 MR. BAKER:

Could we have an exhibit, please.

# 27 MR. PETROCELLI:

It's the Shapiro interview, Mr. Baker.

# 28 MR. BAKER:

Can we have an exhibit.

# 29 MR. PETROCELLI:

Next in order, it's page 20, it's line 17.

# 30 THE CLERK:

2200.

# 31 MR. PETROCELLI:

2200, Mr. Baker.

# 32 MR. BAKER:

Thank you.

# 33 MR. PETROCELLI:

Can you put that on the Elmo. See if you can blow up that paragraph.

# 34 (The instrument herein described as a page from a transcript was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 2200.)

# 35 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) And you read what it says there. (Reading.)

And I imagine the time that we got home was about 9:40, 9:45.

Do you see that?

# 36 A:

Yes, I do.

# 37 Q:

Is that what you told Mr. Shapiro?

# 38 A:

Yes.

# 39 Q:

And how did you come up with those times?

# 40 A:

I was just going approximately.

# 41 Q:

Okay. And that was the next day, wasn't it, or two days later?

# 42 A:

Yes.

# 43 Q:

You gave the interview on the 14th of June?

# 44 A:

Yes.

# 45 Q:

Now, in fact, when we looked at your cell phone records, what was the time that you got back?

# 46 A:

The regular phone record, it was 9:37.

# 47 Q:

Okay. You were off five, ten minutes?

# 48 A:

Correct.

# 49 Q:

Now, let's go to the next page.

You were asked what time you heard these noises, these infamous noises against the wall, right?

# 50 A:

Yes.

# 51 MR. PETROCELLI:

I think it's too tight, Steve. Can you back that up.

# 52 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) These are O.J. Simpson's lawyers asking you, right?

# 53 A:

Correct.

# 54 Q:

The first lawyers really to ask you these questions, right?

# 55 A:

Yes.

# 56 Q:

Okay. And you said the time now was about 10:40, 10:50. Did you tell them that?

# 57 A:

Yes, I did.

# 58 Q:

How did you come up with that time?

# 59 A:

I estimated again.

# 60 Q:

So you said 10:40, 10:50. Why did you give two numbers?

# 61 A:

Because I couldn't -- I had no watch on, I couldn't give an exact time.

# 62 Q:

Now, you were asked at the criminal trial about the length of time after you got -- after -- You were on the phone with Rachel Ferrara, correct?

# 63 A:

Correct.

# 64 Q:

And you hear the noises, right?

# 65 A:

Yes.

# 66 Q:

And you get off the phone and you testified today that -- How long a period of time was it from when you got off the phone -- from when you heard the noises until you got off the phone?

# 67 A:

About two to three minutes.

# 68 Q:

At the criminal trial, do you recall giving the following testimony?

Page 19, 876, line 3. (Reading.) And what -- how long did you speak to her --

# 69 MS. BLUESTEIN:

Can I have a moment to get the reference name?

# 70 MR. PETROCELLI:

Absolutely. Right here. 19876 criminal trial testimony. You got it?

# 71 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) (Reading.)

And how long did you speak to her after you heard the thumps on the wall?

Answer: You know, two to three minutes.

Is that the testimony you gave?

# 72 A:

Yes, it is.

# 73 Q:

Okay. What is this -- let's look at the preliminary hearing page 106.

# 74 MR. PETROCELLI:

Mr. Baker, line 25.

# 75 MR. BAKER:

Got it.

# 76 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) (Reading.)

Question: Now, you hung up the phone how long after you heard the thumps?

Answer: About two to three minutes. Pretty -- Pretty fast I hung up the phone.

Is that your testimony?

# 77 A:

Yes, it is.

# 78 Q:

Is that accurate?

# 79 A:

Yes.

# 80 Q:

Okay. Let's try one more. Grand jury, page 87.

# 81 (Page displayed on Elmo.)

# 82 MR. PETROCELLI:

Can you fix that, Steven?

# 83 MR. FOSTER:

Yes.

# 84 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) (Reading.)

Question: How long after hearing the thumps did you --

# 85 MR. PETROCELLI:

I can't read it. Got to back up a little bit.

# 86 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) (Reading.)

Did you hang up the phone?

Answer: Five minutes after I heard the thumps. It was pretty fast. I mean, within one to five minutes.

Is that an estimate you gave at that time?

# 87 A:

Yes, it is.

# 88 Q:

Is there any doubt in your mind that there was just a few minutes that elapsed from the time that you heard those noises until the time that you hung up the phone?

# 89 A:

No.

# 90 Q:

Is there any doubt in your mind that it was under a minute from the time that you got off the phone until the time that you saw that limousine driver?

# 91 A:

No.

# 92 Q:

When you were speaking with the officers on the morning of June 13, Detective Phillips, Vannatter, Lange and Fuhrman; do you recall Mr. Baker asking you some questions about that?

# 93 A:

Yes.

# 94 Q:

Did you tell them everything about Mr. Simpson's whereabouts between 9:30 and 11?

# 95 A:

I don't think so, no.

# 96 Q:

Did they ask you questions about Mr. Simpson's whereabouts between 9:30 and 11?

# 97 A:

It might have been with Vannatter. I'm not positive

# 98 Q:

But did you -- Did you tell them that you went and investigated the -- the area behind the south wall?

# 99 A:

No.

# 100 Q:

Did you tell Mark Fuhrman that you had investigated the area behind the south wall?

# 101 A:

No.

# 102 Q:

Did you tell anybody that you had gone back there to investigate?

# 103 A:

No.

# 104 Q:

When you were with Mr. Simpson on the evening of June 12, before he left to go to the airport, did you examine his hands?

# 105 A:

No.

# 106 Q:

Did you touch his hands?

# 107 A:

No.

# 108 Q:

Did you look at his fingers?

# 109 A:

No.

# 110 Q:

At any time did you see him take a tissue or a napkin or a towel and dab blood and throw it away?

# 111 A:

No.

# 112 Q:

Now, Mr. Baker showed you some testimony from prior proceedings where you said that you heard the thumps, quote, near -- end of quotes, near the air conditioner. Do you recall that?

# 113 A:

Yes.

# 114 Q:

Do you believe that where you heard the thumps behind your head on the wall is near the air conditioner?

# 115 A:

Yes, I do.

# 116 Q:

By the way, Mr. Baker didn't ask you about this, but when you were in the Rockingham house in the morning with the police officers, after they spoke to you, they then exited out of the house, right?

# 117 A:

Correct.

# 118 Q:

Okay. And did they point out anything to you, that you should not step on as you were walking out the foyer?

# 119 A:

Yes.

# 120 Q:

What did they point out to you?

# 121 A:

There were blood drops.

KEY QUOTE

# 122 Q:

Where were those blood drops?

# 123 A:

On the foyer floor.

# 124 Q:

What time was this?

# 125 A:

About approximately 7:30 I believe.

# 126 Q:

In the morning?

# 127 A:

Yes.

# 128 Q:

Baker showed you that exhibit that he didn't like where you went in the back of the house -- I'm not going to bother putting it up to save time.

You know the one we're talking about?

# 129 A:

Right, the big one.

# 130 Q:

Where you and the officers and Arnelle went in that back door; you know what I'm talking about?

# 131 A:

Yes.

# 132 Q:

Do you know if there's a delay on that door such that when you open the door, the alarm doesn't go off because there's a delay, and you have to go to a keypad and deactivate the alarm?

# 133 A:

I don't know for sure.

# 134 Q:

Mr. Baker asked you some questions about the first time that Mr. Simpson had a conversation with you about setting the alarm.

Do you recall that?

# 135 A:

Yes.

# 136 Q:

Now, just to clarify this one point, when was the first time you had that conversation?

# 137 A:

It was when he was ready to leave for the airport.

# 138 Q:

And where did take conversation occur?

# 139 A:

By the doorway, outside.

# 140 Q:

Okay. So it was not on the telephone later on?

# 141 A:

No.

# 142 Q:

Okay. Now, when you were first interviewed, by the way, by the police, I mean you were pretty frightened?

# 143 A:

Yes.

# 144 MR. BAKER:

Objection, leading Your Honor.

# 145 MR. PETROCELLI:

I think this is foundation.

# 146 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) Mr. Baker elicited that you were scared, you were frightened, right?

# 147 A:

Yes.

# 148 Q:

Now, the police asked you very detailed questions like you were asked later on in depositions and -- I mean court proceedings?

# 149 MR. BAKER:

Leading.

# 150 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 151 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) Did you answer the questions that were put to you?

# 152 A:

Yes, I did.

# 153 Q:

Did you withhold anything that they wanted to know, that they asked you about?

# 154 A:

No.

# 155 Q:

Okay. Mr. Baker showed you some notes that an officer took when he first interviewed you, and then he asked you questions about those notes.

I'd I like to go over that.

Now, you were interviewed by Tippin and Carr, right?

# 156 A:

Correct.

# 157 Q:

And this was in the police station?

# 158 A:

Yes.

# 159 Q:

And the detectives were asking you questions and taking notes, right?

# 160 A:

Yes.

# 161 Q:

Did they show you their notes at the end of their interview?

# 162 A:

No, I never saw those.

# 163 Q:

Did he say here, Mr. Kaelin, look at these, read them over, and swear by these --

# 164 MR. BAKER:

I'm going to object. That's leading and argumentative.

# 165 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 166 Q:

Did they show you the notes?

# 167 A:

No.

# 168 Q:

Did they ask you to review and approve the notes?

# 169 A:

No.

# 170 Q:

Did they ask you -- what did they -- Did you know what they wrote down in their notes?

# 171 A:

No.

# 172 Q:

Baker pointed in their notes that you did not see -- the officers wrote O.J. entered through the front.

Now, they were talking about when you guys came back from McDonald's; do you recall that?

# 173 A:

Yes.

# 174 Q:

Now, Mr. Baker did not show you this document, which is a typewritten --

# 175 MR. BAKER:

I'm going to object.

# 176 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 177 MR. PETROCELLI:

Let me show you this document which you've not seen before this. Mr. Baker, this a typewritten transcript.

# 178 MR. BAKER:

I'm not going to take your representation for that for five seconds.

KEY QUOTE

# 179 MR. PETROCELLI:

Your Honor, I'd like to mark this as exhibit next in order.

# 180 THE COURT:

Okay. I take it you're not going to finish today?

# 181 MR. PETROCELLI:

I'm actually just a few questions away unless there's going to be recross.

# 182 THE COURT:

All right. Show them where you're going to --

# 183 MR. PETROCELLI:

201.

# 184 MR. BAKER:

There's no foundation for this document with this witness.

# 185 MR. PETROCELLI:

Business record.

# 186 MR. BAKER:

Business record?

# 187 MR. PETROCELLI:

I seem to have heard that one before, Your Honor.

# 188 MR. PETROCELLI:

Let the record reflect this is a typewritten interview of Mr. Kaelin's interview, time, 6/13/94, at West LA Police Station, Officers Tippin and Carr.

# 189 (The instrument herein described as A Typewritten Interview of Brian Kaelin on June 13, 1994 was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 2201.)

# 190 Q:

Let me show you this interview that was typed up.

Does that interview that was typed up say anything in there about your telling the officers that Mr. Simpson went into the house after McDonald's?

# 191 A:

I'm going to need time to read it.

# 192 Q:

Want to just look it over.

# 193 MR. BAKER:

If it doesn't, we'll take your representation of that, Mr. Petrocelli, to speed things up.

# 194 A:

No, I don't see it.

# 195 Q:

Okay. You won't see it if you read it carefully.

KEY QUOTE

# 196 MR. BAKER:

We don't need your argument, Mr. Petrocelli.

# 197 THE COURT:

That's stricken.

# 198 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) Have you ever received any money for information about this case?

# 199 A:

No.

# 200 Q:

Have you ever been paid a dime for information about the facts of this case?

# 201 A:

No.

# 202 Q:

Have you ever been offered any money?

# 203 A:

Yes.

# 204 Q:

How much money have you been offered to talk about the facts of this case?

# 205 MR. BAKER:

Objection, relevance, Your Honor.

# 206 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 207 A:

Between 500 to a million dollars.

KEY QUOTE

# 208 Q:

And you turned it down?

# 209 A:

Yes.

# 210 Q:

Okay. Now, this book -- and by the way, was one of them an offer from "The National Enquirer" for $300,000?

# 211 MR. BAKER:

Objection, leading.

# 212 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 213 A:

Yes.

# 214 Q:

Did you turn it down?

# 215 A:

Yes.

# 216 Q:

Now, this book that Mr. Baker was talking about, you sat for interviews for a book?

# 217 A:

Yes.

# 218 Q:

And you were going to write a book with a guy named Mark Elliott?

# 219 A:

Correct.

# 220 Q:

Did you go through with the book?

# 221 A:

No.

# 222 Q:

Did Elliott publish the book without your permission?

# 223 A:

Yes.

# 224 Q:

Are you suing him now?

# 225 A:

Yes.

# 226 Q:

And why didn't you go forward with this book?

# 227 MR. BAKER:

Objection, relevancy.

# 228 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 229 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) Does that book that is out have your endorsement or sponsorship or authority in any way?

# 230 A:

No.

# 231 Q:

Did you have the opinion that that book was too sensationalized?

# 232 MR. BAKER:

I object.

# 233 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 234 MR. PETROCELLI:

That's it, Your Honor.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (5)

Brian 'Kato' Kaelin

Between 500 to a million dollars.

Kaelin reveals the staggering sums he was offered for his story — and turned down — undercutting any inference of financial motive to fabricate or sensationalize.

Brian 'Kato' Kaelin

There were blood drops... On the foyer floor.

Kaelin testifies he personally saw blood drops on the Rockingham foyer floor at approximately 7:30am on June 13, corroborating police observations before any alleged contamination.

Brian 'Kato' Kaelin

No. No. No. No.

Four consecutive denials that any member of the defense team ever invited him to meet, called him, or tried to interview him — a pointed contrast Petrocelli is drawing to imply Baker is not interested in the truth.

Daniel Petrocelli

You won't see it if you read it carefully.

Petrocelli's editorial aside about the typewritten interview — immediately stricken by Judge Fujisaki — captures the combative atmosphere between counsel.

Robert Baker

I'm not going to take your representation for that for five seconds.

Baker's sharp refusal to accept Petrocelli's characterization of the newly marked exhibit illustrates the deep mutual distrust between lead counsel.

Evidence (6)

Plaintiffs' 2200

Page from Robert Shapiro's June 14, 1994 interview of Kaelin, showing Kaelin estimated returning from McDonald's at 9:40-9:45pm

introduced and displayed on Elmo to correct Baker's implication that Kaelin said 10:00pm

Plaintiffs' 2201

Typewritten transcript of Kaelin's police interview, June 13, 1994, West LA Police Station, Officers Tippin and Carr

marked and introduced over Baker's foundation objection; used to show the typed record does not reflect Kaelin saying Simpson entered through the front after McDonald's

Informal

Kaelin's criminal trial testimony (page 19,876, line 3) regarding time on phone with Rachel Ferrara after hearing thumps

read into record to establish consistency

Informal

Kaelin's preliminary hearing testimony (page 106, line 25) on same subject

read into record to establish consistency

Informal

Kaelin's grand jury testimony (page 87) on time elapsed between thumps and hanging up phone

read into record; slight variation (1-5 minutes) addressed

Informal

Handwritten police notes by Officers Tippin and Carr from initial Kaelin interview

discussed; Kaelin confirms he never saw, reviewed, or approved these notes

Notable Exchanges (3)

Daniel Petrocelli•Robert Baker

Dispute over introducing Exhibit 2201, the typewritten Kaelin interview. Baker refuses to accept Petrocelli's representation of what the document is, challenges foundation, and offers a backhanded deal ('If it doesn't [say that], we'll take your representation... to speed things up'). Petrocelli then makes the stricken 'You won't see it if you read it carefully' comment.

heated

Daniel Petrocelli•Robert Baker•Hiroshi Fujisaki

Judge checks whether Petrocelli will finish today; Petrocelli says he's 'just a few questions away unless there's going to be recross,' suggesting efficient pacing and judicial management of time.

procedural

Daniel Petrocelli•Brian 'Kato' Kaelin

Petrocelli walks through four prior proceedings (Shapiro interview, criminal trial, preliminary hearing, grand jury) to establish that Kaelin consistently said he hung up with Rachel Ferrara within 2-5 minutes of hearing the thumps — neutralizing any suggestion of timeline inconsistency.

strategic

Light Moments (2)

Robert Baker

Baker sarcastically offers to accept Petrocelli's representation about the document content 'to speed things up' — a rare moment of tactical humor disguising a foundation challenge.

Daniel Petrocelli

Petrocelli tells Kaelin 'You won't see it if you read it carefully' about the typewritten interview — a zinger immediately stricken by Fujisaki.

Credibility Attacks (2)

⚔ Officers Tippin and Carr (police notes)

reliability challenge via foundation

Petrocelli establishes that Kaelin never saw, reviewed, or approved the handwritten notes Baker relied on in cross — undercutting the notes as an accurate record of what Kaelin actually said.

⚔ Mark Elliott / unauthorized book

context rehabilitation

Petrocelli elicits that the book Baker referenced was published without Kaelin's permission, that Kaelin is suing Elliott, and that the book lacks Kaelin's endorsement — neutralizing Baker's implication that Kaelin monetized his story.

Objections

9 objections (4 sustained, 3 overruled)

Proceeding 8340 • 234 utterances • Defense witness

Civil Trial

Department 103