Now, Mr. Kaelin, after you made your first inspection, if you will, to the south side of the garage, do you have a recollection of when you saw Mr. Simpson?

I can't be exact.

In fact, sir, as you sit here today, you don't know if you saw him at all on the first inspection or the second inspection, isn't that true?

Correct.

You could have walked right past him and you don't have a recollection of it when you were going around the garage to the south side for the first time, true?

One of those times I saw him, correct.

And when you then went around the garage, put the gate back to where it was, you went back towards Ashford and let the limo driver in, correct?

Yes.

And the limo driver then drove up and the vehicle was parked in an area in front of the driveway.

In front he was facing in a southeasterly direction?

True.

And then you -- there's a golf bag sitting there between -- there's a couple benches, are there not?

Benches here, golf bag was here, laying that way.

And the benches run parallel to the -- well, to the entrance I guess. They run the same direction as my pen?

Right.

Okay. And there was -- Mr. Simpson's golf bag was there?

Yes.

You picked it up and put it in the limo?

At one point I did, yes.

And now then, as I understand it, you then had a conversation with Mr. Simpson about the noises, right?

One of those times, I did.

And as I understand your testimony, sir, you testified presently that you did not go into the kitchen?

I did, I made it to the entranceway of the kitchen.

You may resume the stand.

Page 58, interview with Mark Elliott, lines 9 through 13.

You got that?

I don't have it, but proceed.

(BY MR. BAKER) (Reading.) Then I went in the house with him, I said, quote, 'I need a flashlight,' unquote, so we go into the kitchen area and I walk right behind him, kind of behind him, and he goes whoa, what's the time.

Now, that's what you told Mark Elliott when you were trying to sell your story, correct?

Correct.

You didn't lie to Mr. Elliott when you gave this interview on December 7 of 1994?

Well, let me show you what I'll represent to you is an official transcript of that taped interview and represent to you that the "K" is your words and the "E" is Mr. Elliott's words.

And does that not indicate that you told him on a tape, quote, so we go into the kitchen and I -- I walk right behind him, kind of behind him, and then he goes whoa, what's the time.

That's what you said, is it not, sir?

I didn't say areas. It says kitchen area, go into the kitchen area.

I didn't go into the kitchen.

There's an area where the doorway is.

Mr. Kaelin --

Um-hum.

There is -- when you go into the kitchen, there is a foyer and there is a kitchen and there's a line of demarcation because there's a hall there, isn't there, sir?

Yes, there is.

And if you go into the kitchen area, that means the area where the kitchen is and the kitchen nook, isn't that true, sir?

Yes, it is.

And you told Mark Elliott on December 27, 1994 you went into the kitchen area with Mr. Simpson, right behind him or a little bit behind him, true?

Right, never fully into the kitchen though. I wasn't in the kitchen.

If you're in the kitchen area, you're in the kitchen, fair enough, can we agree at least on that?

Okay.

Thanks.

Now, then, is it your testimony in this courtroom today, that after you left the kitchen, you then went out and then there was some deal about who picks up a duffel bag around the Bentley?

Yes.

And how many times have you testified, Mr. Kaelin, before today, that when Mr. Simpson left the kitchen area, he stopped, talked to you and said "It's late, you set the alarm," and got right into the limo? How many times?

I don't know.

I don't think those are the exact words.

Well, you certainly testified that from the kitchen area Mr. Simpson talked to you about the alarm. You didn't testify to that this morning either, did you?

Objection, misstates the testimony.

Let me go back and lay a foundation.

Okay.

(BY MR. BAKER) When you testified here today, sir, you testified that after you, quote, didn't go into the kitchen and Mr. Simpson did go into the kitchen, you then walked out, there was a duffel bag or some bag behind the Bentley, you went to go get it. You of course didn't know whether he even wanted that bag when you attempted to go get it.

Objection, argumentative, it misstates the record, it's a speech. I think if Mr. Baker goes back and reviews the testimony --

I don't need a speech from you, Mr. Petrocelli.

Anyway, misstates the testimony.

(BY MR. BAKER) When you walked out of the kitchen, you didn't know if he wanted any bag because you had no conversation about any bag behind the Bentley, isn't that true, sir?

True.

And you testified that after you -- both of you left the house, you started to walk over to the Bentley to pick up a bag, right, and he said, oh no, don't do that?

He said that, yes.

And you have heretofore testified --

Can you bring that up.

Page and line, please.

MR. P. BAKER: 19912.

Is this the trial testimony?

It is.

One second, please.

199 what?

MR. P. BAKER: 19912, line 15.

Okay.

Pull it up.

(BY MR. BAKER) Question by Ms. Clark in the criminal trial was -- (Reading.)

After you had the conversation about the alarm control panel, what happened next? Your answer: Hum, he got into the limo to catch the flight.

That's what you testified to, was it not, sir?

Right.

And you didn't testify to any attempt to get a duffel bag or anything else, did you?

I thought I did. Somewhere in the trial it came up.

I see.

And you didn't testify that the first time you knew the alarm wasn't set is when you got a telephone call from O.J. Simpson while you were on the phone to Rachel Ferrara, isn't that true?

Correct, called me to set the alarm.

You testified here in the courtroom today that the first time you knew that you had the duty to set the alarm is when you got a phone call from Mr. Simpson, after you'd gone back to your room, isn't that true?

Yes.

Question is vague as to duty. He testified as to --

A request.

-- two conversations about the alarm.

Well, I'm going to object.

Sustained. There's no testimony that -- regarding beauty -- duty.

I don't know what that means.

Request. Let me -- I apologize.

(BY MR. BAKER) You testified, sir, in this courtroom today, that the first time Mr. Simpson made a request of you to set the alarm was after he had left in the limousine and you had walked back around the property and gone back to your room and you were on the phone with Rachel Ferrara and you got beeped in on your call waiting service, correct?

Objection, misstates the testimony.

Overruled.

No.

That's not correct. You may tell him it's not correct.

That's not correct.

(BY MR. BAKER) And you testified in the criminal trial that as you were going out the front door, Mr. Simpson had requested of you to set the alarm, that he would call you on the telephone and tell you the alarm code number, got into the limo and left, true?

Not true.

Now, you were awoken at approximately 6 a.m. on the morning of the 13th, somewhere around there.

All beyond the scope of direct. Object. All new area.

Assuming you're going to finish today, Mr. Baker, I'll let you proceed. But if you're going to have him come back, then I will sustain it.

Okay.

(BY MR. BAKER) We're going to finish today, Mr. Kaelin, okay?

Okay.

Got it. Those are our marching orders.

Now, 6 o'clock, you're awakened by banging on the door, correct?

Approximately, right.

And when you gained consciousness, you go to the door, open the door, and there is Mark Fuhrman, true?

Four officers. Mark Fuhrman was one of them.

Mark Fuhrman is the one that comes into your room, is he not?

Yes.

And Mark Fuhrman is the one who interrogates you in your room, is he not?

Yes.

Now, when that door opens and there are four police officers, they identify themselves, do they not, as police officers, correct?

They did.

And your -- the very next words out of your mouth is, what's wrong, did O.J.'s plane go down, isn't that true, sir?

I think I said that right away, yes.

And so you informed the officers that you knew the whereabouts of Mr. Simpson, at least in the initial phases, and that he had been on an airplane, correct?

Correct.

Now, Mark Fuhrman then started to interrogate you about your whereabouts, did he not?

Yes.

He also interrogated you about what you had on the night before, did he not?

Correct.

And he asked you if you had been taking drugs or alcohol, didn't he?

Correct.

And he then gave you a stigmas test, or something like that, where he takes his flashlight and looks in your eyes?

It was either a pen light or flashlight, one of them.

That was a test, he explained to you, to see if you ingested any drugs?

Something like that, yes.

Now, you told -- you were kind of frightened to see four police officers, weren't you?

Yes.

And you told the police officers, in particular Mark Fuhrman, everything you knew about the whereabouts of Mr. Simpson, didn't you?

Going to object, it's irrelevant, irrelevant to any issue in the case.

You may answer yes or no.

I didn't -- I don't think I said everything, but I did say that I was very scared and talking rapidly.

And you told Mark Fuhrman that Mr. Simpson was on -- had caught the plane the night before, the redeye, to go to Chicago, didn't you?

I might have said that to everybody, all four of them.

Then you also indicated to them that O.J. Simpson was scheduled to be in Chicago at an event for Hertz the following morning, did you not?

I think I said he was at a Hertz event. I don't think I said what time it was scheduled.

Sure.

Then you indicated that he had in fact, that is, Mr. Simpson, had an 11:45 flight out of LAX to Chicago O'Hare, or at least to Chicago, correct?

Redeye, I think I said.

And you told them the time because you knew the time of 11:45 before anybody ever started banging on your door at 6 o'clock in the morning, correct?

I don't remember that.

You did know the time because you had been concerned about Mr. Simpson's running a little late when you were talking to the limo driver, correct?

I think I just said redeye. I'm not -- I think I just said a redeye flight.

Okay. And you indicated to -- well, strike that.

After you -- the door is banged on, and the person that comes in your room is Mark Fuhrman, correct?

I believe Phillips first, then Fuhrman. Then Fuhrman stayed with me while the rest were outside.

What happened was they asked you if anybody else was on the property to your knowledge, didn't they?

They asked me first who I was and who lived here.

I understand.

And if anybody else was on the property.

And you told them that Arnelle was on the property and she was in the guest room to the immediate east of you, correct?

Right, I thought -- I said I thought Arnelle was there. So they knocked on her door.

You knew Arnelle was there, you heard her come in at 1:30 in the morning?

I heard steps.

You thought it was Arnelle?

Right, I thought it was Arnelle.

In fact you testified in one proceeding that you felt more comfortable, less frightened, after you heard the steps at 1:30 because at least now you knew Arnelle was on the property, right?

Correct.

Okay. So then what happened, sir, is that all the police officers, with the exception of Mark Fuhrman, leave your room, isn't that true? And go to Arnelle's?

I believe when Fuhrman was doing that, Phillips wasn't in the room but he was by that -- the ledge way on the cement.

And Phillips left too and went to Arnelle's area, did he not?

I don't remember that for sure.

In any event, sir, the only person that interrogated you in your area -- area of your room was Mark Fuhrman, correct?

Yes, when Fuhrman was in my room and I believe everyone was outside.

And he made you go get your shows to show him what kind of shoes you had on the night before?

Shoes, pants, shirt, I believe.

Then he went in and -- he went into the bathroom area and looked into the bathroom area, did he not?

I don't think so. I don't remember that.

You don't have a recollection of testifying to that before?

I don't think so.

How long was Fuhrman in your room?

Hum, between approximately minute to two minutes.

Two minutes to ask you the questions and to give the test?

To do -- I was at the doorway while this was all happening.

He got into your room?

He's in my room.

He inspected your clothes, did he not, true?

I showed him, right.

And he looked around your room, did he not?

I don't know for sure if he was walking around. But he definitely stood with me and gave me that test and talked to me.

And he definitely required you to get your boots that you had been wearing the night before so he could look at them, he definitely required you to get your pants?

Um-hum.

And he definitely required you to get your shirt, isn't that true?

Right. It was on that chair and then, photo, everything was laying right there.

And when he was asking about whether or not you used any drugs, he went into the bathroom, did he not?

I don't think he did, no.

Now, in terms of your -- after you had been interrogated by Fuhrman, then there was a period of time that elapsed and the other officers came back down the concrete walkway with Arnelle, correct?

Correct.

And they came down from Arnelle's room and walked -- I guess it's west, down here, picked you up and you all went into the house, true?

True (indicating to Exhibit 116.)

And what door did you go into?

We all went into this door.

Okay. And that's the door that you all went into, right?

Correct.

And actually there was four officers and two of you, right?

Correct.

Now, in terms of your particular conversation with Mark Fuhrman, you told him about the thumps, didn't you?

I think I might have said that to him and -- I was saying everything so I imagine that must have been part of it too, yes.

Mr. Kaelin, you in fact told him exactly where they came from, did you not, where you thought they had come from?

I think I told them I heard thumps behind my bed.

In fact, you testified in this courtroom today when I asked you questions, that they came right behind your bed, didn't you?

Um-hum. Yes.

In fact, you testified on two other occasions they came behind, right near the air conditioner, which is a good five to six feet away, isn't that true?

Just behind my bed.

Let me read from your grand jury testimony, page 69, line 5 through 8.

Hold on, Mr. Baker.

May I?

What's the page number?

69. And then we'll go to the preliminary hearing at 105.

Okay.

(BY MR. BAKER) (Reading.)

Question: The area on the wall where you heard that thump -- those thumps, was that near to the air conditioning unit? Answer: Yes.

Could you read the whole answer.

(BY MR. BAKER) (Reading.) Also, the picture moved.

Preliminary hearing, 105, line 11.

(BY MR. BAKER) (Reading.)

Question: Was it near the air conditioning unit that the thumps seemed to come from? Answer: Yes.

Now, that was your testimony on June 20, 1994 and July 5, 1994, correct, sir?

Correct.

And now it's five to six feet away behind where you were on the bed so that you could feel the vibration, right?

Correct.

Now, Mr. Fuhrman was told about what you then believed the location of the thumps were and the fact that you felt that the thumps had occurred on the night -- early morning hours, rather, of June 13, 1994, true?

If I told them that, I possibly had said it to them during the interview, yes.

You were trying to tell him everything that you thought would assist in any way, shape or form, the police, in what they were attempting to do, correct?

Correct. I think I talked to Vannatter more in the bar area.

Now, you did of course -- now, the alarm -- you had actually gone around and set the alarm, right, when Mr. Simpson had called the prior evening?

From the call waiting?

Yes, sir.

Yes.

And you had dutifully set the alarm and watched the alarm indicator light change, right?

Correct.

And your recollection is you just walked right in that back entrance, where there's no alarm pad and there's no lock?

Arnelle was leading, and I think they -- she had a lot of keys on her. That's what I remember, her leading and all the officers following in with me.

Do you recall going out around the driveway and going in the front door on the morning of June 13 so that the alarm could be disalarmed?

Objection.

No.

Assumes facts not in evidence that that's the only way it could be disalarmed.

Overruled. That's not the question.

(BY MR. BAKER) Now, then, you're in the house in that bar area, and although you've been talking to Detective Fuhrman for a period of time in your room, you then were interrogated by Mr. Vannatter, correct?

Correct.

And you remained in the bar area, which is that little semicircular in my rather archaic drawing on that exhibit, true?

True.

And Arnelle and the other detectives, with the exception of Mark Fuhrman, were in the kitchen, correct?

I was there with Vannatter. I didn't know everybody who was in the other room, but at periods I would go into the other one because I asked if I knew where keys were, but everybody was there together.

Your interrogation took place out here in the den area, and there's a dining room area that separates that den area from the kitchen area, correct?

Correct.

And in that kitchen area is where -- when you were transported or moved from the den that's where you went to see the other detectives, correct?

At that bar area.

From the bar area to the nook area?

Yeah. I stayed -- when he interviewed me I sat at the bar stool facing him. I didn't -- I couldn't see into the kitchen.

And do you -- you don't know where Mark Fuhrman went when you entered the house, do you?

I don't know. I can't answer that, no.

And when you went in and were looking for keys and that sort of thing, you saw a Detective Lange and Detective Phillips in the kitchen area, but you never saw Mark Fuhrman, did you?

I don't know for sure.

Now, the interview -- that interview with Vannatter lasted about 20 minutes, did it not?

I can't give you an exact time. I know there was an interview. I can't put a time on it.

And from 6 to 6 -- oh, well, strike that.

You never saw Mark Fuhrman after he left you when you entered the house, the main house in Rockingham, isn't that true?

I don't know for sure.

Now, I want to ask you a couple questions. After the interview that you had in the house with Vannatter and after the interview you had in your room with Fuhrman, you then gave a subsequent interview at 1:30 to Officers Carr and Tippin, that we've alluded to earlier today, correct?

Correct.

And you went to the police station to give that one?

Yes.

And that was a pretty formal proceeding, and you were aware that this was a serious matter because you had been transported from the house to the police station, correct?

I knew something was up. I had never been in something like this before when I was in the room.

You indicated to Mr. Petrocelli when he was talking to you about being in the -- in the foyer/kitchen, when you were looking for a better flashlight, that you didn't see Mr. Simpson cut, right?

Correct.

And I take it that in order to answer that question and not to mislead this jury you then had in fact looked at Mr. Simpson's hand or hands, true?

I'm going to object to the preamble of that question.

Sustained.

Argumentative and improper.

(BY MR. BAKER) Did you look at his hands?

I don't believe so.

You mean you answered the question that you didn't know whether or not Mr. Simpson was cut, and you never looked at either of his hands?

Objection. I didn't ask if he was cut, I asked if he saw blood.

You may answer.

That I did not see blood.

(BY MR. BAKER) Did you see any evidence of cuts on Mr. Simpson's hands?

Lack of foundation.

Overruled.

Not that I was aware of.

(BY MR. BAKER) And it was approximately 11 o'clock on the night of June 12, correct?

Approximately, yes.

Now, also, when you were asked by Mr. Petrocelli about this inspection that you and O.J. Simpson were going to do, he was going to go one way and you were going to go another way?

Yes.

Remember that?

Mr. Simpson had suggested to you if you were going to circle the house that you go to the south side and down the south side of the garage, right?

I was going to go that way, he was going to go the other way.

Well, he was just directing me to go one way and him the other way. We were going to end up in the back.

He directed you to go around this way to the area where the glove was purportedly found by Mark Fuhrman on June 13, 1994, true?

Right around that way.

Now, the issue of the time period of the thumps, you had a conversation with Rachel Ferrara about that, did you not?

Yes.

She testified that the time period of the thumps, when you told it to her, was 10:40, didn't she?

Objection, hearsay.

Sustained.

(BY MR. BAKER) Did you have any conversations with her about whether she was going to be called?

I move that that be stricken from the record.

Stricken.

(BY MR. BAKER) Did you have any conversation with Rachel Ferrara that she was going to be called by the plaintiffs in this case?

Objection, irrelevant.

Sustained.

(BY MR. BAKER) You have any conversation with Mr. Petrocelli whether or not he was going to call Rachel Ferrara to testify as to what time you told her on the telephone the thumps were?

Also irrelevant.

Strike it as calling for hearsay.

With Mr. Petrocelli, Your Honor?

Yep.

I think it goes to bias.

Sustained.

(BY MR. BAKER) Now, did you review the testimony of Rachel Ferrara in terms of what time she said the thumps occurred at the criminal trial?

No.

Have you had any conversation with her, you can answer this yes or no, since the criminal trial as to what time she believes you told her those thumps occurred?

No.

And you've had numerous, numerous conversations with Mr. Petrocelli and members of his firm about what time those thumps occurred, right?

Not numerous, no.

Well, how many, 20?

No.

You talked --

The meetings I told you about in the beginning, that's the only time we had talks.

Yes.

And you consider yourself part of the plaintiffs' team, don't you?

You had lunch and breakfast with them, you've been over at their hotel, have you not?

Yes.

You've been up in the suite, have you not?

Yes.

No.

Thank you.