Thank you, Your Honor.

(BY MR. BAKER) Now, Mr. Kaelin, even after the pause that you say you observed when you asked Mr. Simpson to go to get a hamburger, there was nothing in his demeanor or his behavior that was unusual at all except that he was tired, correct?

Correct.

In other words, during the drive to get food, he was not upset, was he?

No.

Now, he was not depressed?

Well, he was tired. "Depressed," it's kind of a fine line. I thought just not talkative. So I could say, yeah, it was maybe depressed and tired, just quiet.

Now, let me read what you told the grand jury on page 64, lines 7 through 15?

Okay.

One second Mr. Baker.

Thank you.

(BY MR. BAKER) (Reading:)

"Q. During the drive to get food, can you describe how Mr. Simpson was behaving?

"A. Quiet. I asked him about -- a question about what airline he was going to fly out and what time the flight was, but he was, you know, he seemed very tired.

"Q. Did he seem upset?

"A. No.

"Q. Or depressed?

"A. No, tired.

And likewise, Mr. Kaelin, on the way back, you didn't notice anything unusual other than he was tired, correct?

Correct.

Now, so, by the time that you were back from the McDonald's, you knew that he was on American Airlines and his flight was at 11:45, right?

I think I knew it was American Airlines; I knew it was a red eye, and I think he said American.

Now, can we put up that photograph of the Bentley, please.

MR. P. BAKER: 2197.

2197.

Thanks. I never get them right.

(BY MR. BAKER) That's where the Bentley was parked when you came back on the 12th of June 1994 from McDonald's, correct?

Yeah, pretty much.

I don't know if it's wider on that shot.

Is that the widest it goes?

I think it is.

I think we can see all the borders of that.

Yeah. Because I could see it better, but basically it's how it would park, yeah.

And now, we can see that there is some space behind Mr. Simpson's Bentley; that is still in this cut-out area, correct?

Say it again?

Well, in other words, the driveway is over here, is it not?

Um-hum.

And this cut-out area is so that there's an ability to park cars in the circular driveway and still get through, is it not?

Yeah.

And behind Mr. Simpson's Bentley is a space where we can see that there is, you know, some tile or whatever it is, and that is in an area, as I'm pointing in this cut-out area, on 191.

Is it 191?

MR. P. BAKER: 116.

116.

The jurors know better. (Indicating to exhibit.)

(BY MR. BAKER) There are bushes that go right along here that we can see in this photograph; isn't that true?

Um-hum. Yes.

And those bushes come up about what, two feet?

Yeah. Looks like about two feet.

And that vehicle, you cannot -- well, maybe it's three feet, whatever it is. But you cannot open the right-hand passenger door with that vehicle in that position, can you?

It goes right into the bushes; isn't that true, sir?

If it's parked like that, that close, yeah.

And what happened on the night of June 12, 1994, as it always happens, when Mr. Simpson -- if somebody is a passenger in his Bentley and drives into that cut-out area, he is -- he lets the person out before he pulls next to the bushes because you can't get out when you get close to the bushes; isn't that correct?

I'm going to object to what Mr. Simpson always does.

Sustained as to what he always does.

(BY MR. BAKER) On the night of June 12, 1994, Mr. Simpson let you out of the vehicle before he pulled it into the cut-out area, where the vehicle is pictured on the photograph on the monitor; isn't that true, sir?

I don't think so. I think I got out and that was it, and he got out.

Is it your recollection, sir, as you sit here -- you know, I want you to assume that that picture is a picture taken of the Bentley on June 13, 1994, parked in the position it was parked and left on June 12, 1994.

Is it your recollection, sir, that you got out, fought the bushes and struggled back through the bushes before you went out of the vehicle and towards the breakfast nook?

I'm going to object. There's no basis for that assumption, Your Honor. There's no testimony.

Sustained. There does not appear to be any foundation as to when.

That's why I asked it in a hypothetical.

That's a compound question. Sustained.

(BY MR. BAKER) Now--

And you sustained it on the grounds of compound?

Well, the big problem is, the primary objection is, there's no foundation for your initial question with regards to how that car was photographed in this position.

(BY MR. BAKER) Now, forget how the car was photographed. I want you to assume that that car was in the area where it is depicted in this photograph.

Do you have a recollection, sir, of opening the passenger door into the bushes and crawling between the bushes and the car going back towards the south, or -- strike that -- the east, towards the house?

No, I don't remember that, going to the bushes.

And were you there enough to know whether or not you could get a car behind where Mr. Simpson generally parked the Bentley?

You mean, could another car go back behind the Bentley right now?

Yes, sir.

In that spot --

Yeah.

-- there?

Yeah. Because there was this driveway. A few cars would park there.

Forget the driveway.

At least in the cut-out area -- that's what we've been calling it, this area cut out -- so that the driveway can still be used to go in one gate and out the other, is it your recollection that the Bentley would usually be parked in the -- toward most -- area closest to Rockingham, and that Arnelle Simpson would park her Saab behind that vehicle?

I couldn't tell.

Two cars could fit there, but I didn't know which would be in front or behind.

And Mr. Simpson generally, to your recollection, drove his Bronco, as contrasted to his Bentley?

Yeah, I think -- I think more the Bronco.

Now, you say that you walked after -- wherever you got out of the Bentley, you walked towards the house, correct?

Correct.

And you were walking towards the kitchen nook?

Yes.

And you never told any LA Police Officers, not named Tippin or Carr or anyone else, that Mr. Simpson went into the front of the house, did you?

No.

And you don't know how that appeared in their police report on the statement taken by you at 1:30 in the afternoon of June 13, 1994, correct?

Objection, Your Honor. It's not a police report; it's handwritten notes; and it's not in the subsequent reports.

Overruled.

You may answer if you know.

Say the question again.

(BY MR. BAKER) You don't have any idea how it appeared in the police interview of you at 1:30 in the afternoon of June 13, 1994, that you walked into the house the prior evening, towards the house, and that Mr. Simpson entered the front of the house?

I have no idea how that appeared.

Now, and you've testified to this jury that you believe you were going into the kitchen nook to have -- to finish your meal with Mr. Simpson, right?

Um-hum. Yes, I did.

You knew because you'd already been, of course, in the vehicle with him, that he had a flight to catch later that evening, correct?

Correct.

And you knew, because you saw him, that he had eaten his hamburger in the car, correct?

Correct.

And nonetheless, it is your testimony that you thought you were going to go into the kitchen nook and eat it, right?

Correct.

Okay.

Now, you then went around through the driveway, around the path, across the deck area, and down into your room, correct?

Correct.

And you went and you were on your bed, as I understand it, talking on the telephone and eating whatever, your chicken sandwich that you had gotten?

Yes, sir.

And you stayed basically in that position; that is, lying on the bed, talking first to Tom O'Brien and then to Rachel, correct, until such a time as you got up after you heard these thumps that you have testified to on many occasions, correct?

No. After Tom, I got up to get the typewriter.

Okay.

And I was moving around.

By the way, you talked about that typewriter. That was another thing you talked about with Mr. Simpson on the way to get your hamburger, wasn't it?

Right, yeah.

And you just asked if you could use the typewriter. And he said, sure, it's Nicole's; go ahead and use it; it's fine, right?

Right.

Okay.

Now, when -- you then got back and you determined that the typewriter wasn't going to work in what, five minutes or so?

Well, I was plugging it in different outlets and I didn't know if it was the outlet or the typewriter.

And this was in your room, correct?

Right. It's in the office area, too.

And the thing never worked in any outlet, right?

It made a noise but it wasn't working in one of the -- in any of the outlets.

Other than that five minutes, sir, would it be true that the rest of the time, you were basically on your bed and on the telephone?

Yeah.

And when I was on the phone with Rachel, I put the phone down and said to her, look, you know, I'm plugging it in now and it's not working. Had a -- I was joking around, so I was moving and back on the bed with the phone.

So for a period from approximately 9:37 until sometime close to 11 o'clock, you were on that bed, correct?

Pretty much, yes.

And by the way, you can't see the upstairs of Mr. Simpson's house from the bed in your room, can you?

If my slits are open -- I can't remember if you can see him or not from the bed -- the slits in the door -- I don't know if you can see the reflection coming out.

I had the office door open because the typewriter was there, so there's this big window there, and I --

Sir, just answer my question. And my question to you is --

Excuse me. He was answering it, Your Honor.

I don't think it was responsive.

(BY MR. BAKER) My question to you was: And when you're lying back on the bed, you cannot see whether or not a light is on in the upstairs of Mr. Simpson's house from your room, or the room you were using in June of 1994; isn't that true, sir?

It could be the way you're laying, yes.

And it is also true that you can't see whether or not a television is on from the position of lying in that bed, looking at -- in through the office or looking out the window from the room that you were using, correct?

From the office, you could see through the window -- if you went outside, you could, yes, but not laying in the bed, probably not.

In -- So, you didn't have the ability from 9:40 -- 9:37, when you got back, to the time that you went out in front of that house, to the driveway, to see whether or not the lights were on, whether or not the television was on, with the exception of when you left your room and went out on the decking area and walked around, correct?

Object. It's vague. What does he mean, "the ability?"

Overruled.

Partially, yes.

(BY MR. BAKER) Now, in terms of your then situation, you have testified on many occasions about these thumps that you say you heard, right?

Yes.

And you have each time, with the exception of your deposition in February of 1996, indicated that the thumps were rhythmic and hit the witness stand where you were testifying, right?

Correct.

(BY MR. BAKER) And after you spent eight and a half hours or so with Mr. Petrocelli, when you were taking your deposition in February of 1996, you felt compelled to roll along the wall, didn't you?

Objection. It's argumentative.

Sustained.

It's also vague and ambiguous.

As to form.

(BY MR. BAKER) You didn't use your general thump, thump, thump (Mr. Baker hits the podium, demonstrating) in your deposition; you made a movement along the wall in the room when we were taking your deposition.

After you had spent hours with Mr. Petrocelli --

Compound.

Compound. Sustained.

Lack of foundation about what he was asked to do.

(BY MR. BAKER) Now, you testified in terms of that, the time that you heard these thumps were -- at the preliminary hearing, you said 10:40, 10:45, correct?

Excuse me. Can we have a page and line reference?

And that misstates the testimony, Your Honor.

It's on page 104 --

It's on page 1047, to 28.

Also line 14.

(BY MR. BAKER) You said 10:45 --

Line 14.

(BY MR. BAKER) -- true?

Approximately, right.

And you testified in the trial, it was 10:40 to 10:45.

Page 19,873. You got that?

Yes, Mr. Baker.

(BY MR. BAKER) And you testified at the criminal trial, 10:40 to 10:45, correct?

True, with an explanation.

And you had -- during that period of time, you had a conversation with Rachel, true?

Correct.

And at approximately 9 -- 10:30, rather, you and Rachel -- you said to her -- she said to you something -- you both indicated that it was 10:30, or you had a conversation that it was approximately 10:30 at that time, did you not?

I think it was all approximate.

You testified it was approximately 10 minutes later that you heard the thumps, at 10:40, correct?

If -- you have to show me if it's on there.

Trial testimony, page 19,873.

What line, Mr. Baker?

I'm sorry, I don't have a line in front of me.

Let me get it for you. I'm sorry.

Mr. Baker, I was never aware of time, so it was always approximate.

(BY MR. BAKER) Let me read from 19,873.

Now, by the time you testified on March 22, 1995, there was at least what, 50 people that asked you what time it was that you heard the thumps?

I have no idea.

Well, you certainly had been asked by Marcia Clark, hadn't you?

That's one person.

You certainly had been asked by Mr. Cochran hadn't you?

Probably, yes.

You certainly had been asked by Mark Elliott, hadn't you, in your interview with him?

Possibly.

You certainly were asked at the grand jury and the preliminary hearing, weren't you?

Um-hum.

You were asked by news reporters, weren't you?

I don't think so.

You had, before you testified at the criminal trial, spent hours with the District Attorney relative to your testimony, had you not sir?

Yes, I did.

How many hours did you actually spend with the D.A.s before you got on the witness stand in March of '95?

I don't know how many hours. It was a few -- quite a few.

Was it over 15?

I think so.

And you knew in those interviews, they had asked you on numerous occasions how you judged the time at 10:40; isn't that correct, sir?

I think I've always said "approximately."

Okay.

And how you judged the time at approximately 10:40, you were asked that on numerous occasions before you testified at the trial, were you not, sir?

I believe so.

And you testified at page 19873, that page, lines 7 through 16:

"Q. At that point, sir, that you heard the thumps on the walls, sir, about how long had you been on the phone with Rachel Ferraro?

"A. About a half an hour.

"Q. So approximately what time was it when you heard the thumps on the wall?

"A. It was about 10:40.

"Q. Is that exactly 10:40?

"A. Well, I don't remember I didn't look at a clock, but around 10:40."

That's what you said, is it not, sir?

Yes, it is.

And you didn't say 10:50, did you?

No; I said "around."

And you then testified that -- and you'd previously testified 10:40 to 10:45, correct --

If --

-- at the criminal trial?

If it's on there, I probably said that, around that time, yes.

And you didn't testify to in the neighborhood of 10:50, did you, sir?

Well, it's like the explanation; again, I didn't have -- I didn't have a clock or a watch.

You didn't talk about 10:50 at any time after you had given a statement to Mr. Shapiro, when you thought you got back from McDonald's at 10 o'clock, until -- until you spent hours with Mr. Petrocelli; isn't that true?

Excuse me, Your Honor. This is an absolute misstatement of the Shapiro interview. Got home at 9:40 to 9:45. It's right here, line 17, page 20.

He keeps saying 10 o'clock. I object.

Sustained.

Objection. Lack of foundation; misstates his testimony.

Overruled.

You may answer.

(BY MR. BAKER) You can answer.

Say it again.

This is the last time.

Never mind. I'll withdraw it. Never mind.

Now, you demonstrated the thumps in a rhythmic fashion every time you testified about those thumps; that is, equal distance, spaced apart, every time you've testified about them, right?

Yes.

And you never mentioned a vibration on the wall that you felt until today, did you?

Lack of foundation Your Honor.

It's a question.

Overruled.

Well, that the picture moved, I guess it's obvious that there had to be vibration.

(BY MR. BAKER) Now, let's talk about the picture.

Can you put that up?

That's not --

That's okay. We'll get to the other picture in a minute. That's looking from, basically, the entrance to your room to the east, correct?

As if this was the office, looking in, right.

Right?

Correct.

And this room, besides having the walls that it has on it, has a paneling that's about a half an inch thick of wood, is it not?

Right; there's wood on it.

And the air conditioner is in the area where my finger is, by the latch. That would be on the -- on the east side of the room, correct?

Correct.

And then there's a bathroom that adjoins that, you can enter, that adjoins the room here, correct?

Correct.

And the other bathroom is a bathroom for people who are using the pool. To use it, it is only accessible from the outside; is that correct?

Right.

Now -- and then there's a window in the bathroom that is a couple of feet east of the air conditioner, correct?

Right.

True.

Now -- and that window, you can open and --

It's --

-- you wanted to throw something out, you could throw something out?

Right. It's a wind-up window.

Now, in terms, sir, of your --

Did you get the other view to the --

MR. P. BAKER: 194.

Thank you.

(BY MR. BAKER) That is then looking to the west, correct?

Correct.

At an angle, obviously.

And this is the double doors that open into the office, true?

True.

And the light in the picture, you say, moved, right?

The picture moved, yeah, not the light.

Correct. The picture, you say?

The picture.

Now, you said -- you previously testified that it almost moved off the wall, didn't you?

That it moved and it was very noticeable movement to it.

Okay. Let me read from your preliminary hearing testimony, page 105, lines 22 to 27.

Have you looked at that, Mr. Petrocelli?

Yes.

Will you give me some sort of signal?

Well, I'm sorry.

(BY MR. BAKER) (Reading:)

"Q. So there was a picture on that wall, also?

"A. (No audible response.)

"Q. Is that yes?

"A. Yes, it was a picture.

"Q. And that picture moved when you heard the noises?

"A. Yes. It almost moved off the wall."

Was that your testimony on July 5, 1994, sir?

Correct.

And then you also testified that through this wall and this paneling -- the next time you testified, you testified that the picture moved six inches, did you not?

I don't remember, but if it's on there, I possibly said it.

And you say that the picture moved six inches. And that would be towards -- towards the west, wouldn't it?

Six inches -- the lower portion -- picture moved six inches towards the west?

It was a tilt like that (indicating).

That occurred after the first thump?

I don't know exactly.

Second thump?

I don't know.

Third thump?

After the thumps.

So you then heard all three thumps and then the picture moved, right?

Correct.

So the thumping had quit. And after you had completed the thumping, then the picture moved six inches, or almost off the wall, and the bottom portion of that picture moves towards the west. And that wall -- what looks like maybe there's a thermostat . . .

It could have happened during the thumps. I wasn't positive, but it happened because of thumps and it could have gone --

Which is it?

I would think it happened during the thumps.

You testified here this morning that it happened after the thumps. And you testified now that it happened during the thumps.

Is it your testimony that it happened during or after, or do you really not have a clear recollection of those events at all?

And, sir, in terms of location of these purported thumps, were they right behind the picture?

No.

Were they right behind the headboard?

Behind the headboard, yes.

Directly behind the headboard?

Would you put the other picture on, Phil the later one.

MR. P. BAKER: 143.

Please tell us the number.

MR. P. BAKER: 143.

We have one other picture that looks at the headboard, do we not?

No? Okay.

MR. P. BAKER: 194.

(BY MR. BAKER) The headboard is approximately how wide?

It's the same length as the bed -- the width of the bed, I should say. I would imagine about five feet.

You were over on the right side of that bed as you face it, correct?

Right there, correct (indicating).

And the thumps -- the air conditioner is at least six feet away from you?

About that, yeah.

And you then heard thumps, what, behind?

Behind me.

And it was some two to three minutes later, then, that you decided to investigate?

Correct.

And when you investigated, you were kind of concerned about these thumps and the possibility of an intruder, correct?

Correct.

And that was foremost on your mind at that time, was it not?

Pretty much, yes.

And you were kind of, well, a little bit frightened, weren't you?

Yes.

And you wanted to see if there was anything visible that you could associate with the noises you just heard, true?

True.

And so your attention, as you left your room, went up the stairs and walked past the pool and through the path, was to determine whether or not there was any cause for the noises that you believed you heard at approximately 10:40, 10:45, right?

I'm sorry. Can you say it one more time?

When you left your room and went up the stairs to -- about three steps, isn't it, something like that?

Right.

An then you're on the deck area of the pool; pool's to your right; as you're traversing, as you're walking this way, the pool's on your right; you're going in a northerly direction. Around these are -- this is a wall here, and then these are glass doors, right?

Correct.

And you were --

By the way, just this back door, back here (indicating to 116)

To the bar area.

Yeah?

Yeah.

This one, where you go up onto the little -- this is a couple of steps, too, is it not?

Yes.

There's no alarm pad on that door, is there?

I don't remember.

There's no lock on that door that can be opened from the outside, either, is there?

I don't remember.

Now, you went to the north, got on the path, went around to the driveway area, correct?

Correct.

Okay.

And as say, your concern was the noise and the possible threat, that whatever caused those noises, could be to you or to the property, true?

Yes.

And you weren't, I take it, looking to see whether Mr. Simpson's lights were on upstairs and looking to see whether Mr. Simpson's lights were on downstairs, were you?

No, I don't think I was looking. But I think from the bedroom, it illuminates, so I could see more on the pathway in back if they were on, and I think I remember that.

All right. When you walk around the house, for example, when you get to the -- to the front den area, those lights are never on, are they?

The front? You mean those coach lights or the --

No.

The actual den itself?

It's a poor question. I apologize.

I'm delighted.

Your Honor, he's going to use the exhibit to which he previously objected. I assume his objection is withdrawn.

It is not, Your Honor. But what I would like to do is to take this and just cut off the bottom portion of it, which is the only inaccuracy that I have complaints about.

There is nothing inaccurate about it, Your Honor.

But I will give you one touche.

I was serious about getting that exhibit put into evidence if he's now going to use it.

I'm not going to allow it without sufficient foundation.

Sorry about this.

Can we put it on that one?

Maybe not. Okay. Sorry.

MR. P. BAKER: That is 199.

199.

(BY MR. BAKER) Now, this den area is virtually never used, to your knowledge, is it?

Right.

So there's -- you wouldn't expect any lights to be on in that room, would you?

No.

If Mr. Simpson is home alone, you wouldn't expect there to be any lights on in the living room, would you?

To be on in the living room?

Yeah. If he's upstairs, there would be no reason to have lights on in the living room?

Possibly not.

No reason to have lights on in the family room or dining room if he's upstairs.

This calls for speculation.

Sustained.

Now, when you went around to the driveway area, you then said in your testimony this morning that you saw the limousine parked at the Ashford gate, correct?

Correct.

And you're clear, are you not, as is your testimony today, that you did not let that vehicle into the driveway until you had gone and made your first inspection, if you will, on the south side of the house by the garage?

Correct.

So you walked out of that pathway, took a left turn, and then headed basically due south towards the garage area, correct?

Correct.

And you walked down the garage area and there was a gate there, true?

Yeah, right up here there's a gate.

All right. And that gate, it's a little chain link gate, is it not?

Yeah, it's -- it would be like me moving this picture, same thing, you can move it.

All right. But --

It's chain link.

And it has obviously a metal frame around the chain link fence, does it not?

Yes.

And that particular gate didn't work, did it or didn't then?

No, you just lean it against this tree.

And so that gate was in place and you took it out, leaned it against the tree, and walked back a few more feet, correct?

Correct.

And it was dark back there, you felt uncomfortable, so you walked back out. You put the gate back to where you had originally taken it from?

Pretty positive, yes.

Now -- and the gate wasn't lying down, it wasn't askew, it was upright and you had to move it to get there both times, right?

Correct.

Now, in -- in the house, how many entrances, if you know, are there to get into the house from anyplace on the south side?

I believe that at the time I knew, there was right by the maid's -- the laundry room.

Also, a door goes into the garage?

Right.

That goes, then, into the house?

Correct.

And so if anybody was coming over the fence, they could -- and wanted to get into the house, they could enter through the maid's room or they could enter through the garage, and then into the garage, and then through the door that goes from the garage into the main living quarters?

Assumes facts not in evidence, incomplete hypothetical, Your Honor, in terms of keys and locks and so forth.

Overruled.

I imagine they could, yes.

(BY MR. BAKER) All right. And you knew about both of those doors, did you not, in June of 1994?

No, I only knew of that maid's door.

You had gone past the door to get into the garage and you had never seen it?

Didn't know it was there.

Now, in terms of the garage itself, you had been in and out of that particular room, I guess it's called, garage, had you not?

Been in the garage?

Yeah.

About three or four times, yes.

That's where Mr. Simpson kept a car parked in there that he virtually never used, correct?

Correct.

And there were some weights and a multitude of golf clubs in there, right?

Golf clubs, yes, bikes.

Bikes, weights, and basically difficult to navigate through there because of all the junk in there?

Correct.

So if you were going to --

Can we put that picture up, the garage.