Douglas W. Deedrick.
DOUGLAS W. DEEDRICK, the witness on the stand at the time of the adjournment on Tuesday, November 12, 1996, having been previously duly sworn, was examined and testified further as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. MEDVENE:
Agent Deedrick, yesterday we were speaking about hairs, in particular Mr. Simpson's hairs, that you said you matched between the known sample and hairs found on Mr. Goldman's shirt and on the Bundy hat.
Did you have occasion to examine any head hairs found on a head band and two caps found in Mr. Simpson's bedroom at 360 North Rockingham?
And did you make a determination whether those head hairs matched the known sample of Mr. Simpson's and the head hairs you identified as matching Mr. Simpson's head hairs found on Mr. Goldman's shirt and on the Bundy hat?
All the hairs from known standards, the question hairs, from the caps, from the bedroom, was also a cap from the Bronco, and the hairs from the crime-scene items, all exhibited the same characteristics.
KEY QUOTENow, yesterday we spoke about hairs. And basically today I want to move to fibers, if we can.
Can you tell us generally what a fiber is?
Well, in general, the simplest definition is the smallest portion of a fabric. It's the smallest piece, smallest element that makes up a fabric.
Well, pretty much so. It's a microscopic examination, first to identify a comparison microscope to compare question fibers and known fibers, but there are additional tests that are used with textile fibers to confirm identifications. I mentioned them yesterday.
I believe we use polarized light, microscopic -- little bit different, because we don't use them with hairs; we use FTIR, which is infrared spectroscopy techniques, micro spectrometry.
To detect color, we use fluorescents, another microscope that allows you to look at fibers under fluorescents. There are additional techniques or additional tools that are used with fiber identifications and comparisons that are not used with hair examinations.
Now, yesterday, we were discussing Mr. Goldman's shirt and certain hairs you found on that shirt that matched the known samples of certain individuals.
Did you find any fibers on Mr. Goldman's shirt that you analyzed to see if they matched fibers found on any of the items of the chart 2169 that you started for us yesterday?
Well, the shirt was made of cotton, couple different colors. The pants were blue cotton; they were blue jeans.
These known samples from his question -- his question items, his clothing were compared with items that were recovered from items that are on the board.
And I reached the conclusion regarding those, and that included the Bundy glove, the Bundy hat and the Rockingham glove. All had fibers on them that matched up with the fibers from Ron Goldman's clothing.
(BY MR. MEDVENE) Did you have occasion to prepare a chart depicting the microscopic characteristics of the fibers that you found on the items of evidence that you say matched those on Ron Goldman's clothing?
Well, the photographs at the top are the known cotton fibers from his shirt. I mentioned they were brown, as well as a white.
The bottom six photographs represent fibers that were recovered from the items, as indicated on the board: Right glove, left glove -- the left glove was the Bundy glove -- and the knit hat.
If they're common, could you tell us, as a hair examiner, what significance, if any, is your finding that Mr. Goldman's shirt fibers were found on the three items that you indicated, the Bundy glove the Bundy hat and the Rockingham glove?
Well, it shows a link. It shows an association between these items and the victim by clothing. The presence of the reddish substance or blood, also, I believe is a helpful indicator.
You have to constantly remember that white cotton fibers are common. And I can really say no more than the fact that they do link those items.
Well, there are blue-jean fibers -- I didn't photograph them -- here that were also found on some of the questioned items, as well.
I believe all three of the question items that the white cotton fibers were found -- and blue-jean cotton fibers are also common fibers.
(BY MR. MEDVENE) Did you find any other fibers on Mr. Goldman's shirt that you found matched any of the other items on the board, 2169?
Your Honor, I'm just going to object because I think that misstates his testimony. I don't believe he found -- personally found any fibers on Mr. Goldman.
(BY MR. MEDVENE) Did you examine any other fibers that you understood came from Mr. Goldman's shirt that matched any of the other items identified on Exhibit 2169?
Overruled. Previous foundation having been laid by previous witness Brockbank, I believe.
Yeah. There were a couple other fiber types that were found on the shirt that you're -- that would be represented on the board. A cashmere fiber, as well as some blue-black cotton fibers.
(BY MR. MEDVENE) Let's talk first about the cashmere fiber.
Did you compare the cashmere fiber on Mr. Goldman's shirt with any of the other fibers that you found on items on the chart 2169?
Well, the comparison is microscopic. They were natural cashmere fibers of brownish coloration to it because of the pigmentation. And they were alike microscopically, and they -- I compared those with the known standard, essentially.
Can you put on the board, then, for us the cashmere fiber from Mr. Goldman's shirt and the fiber you found that matched on the Bundy hat.
(BY MR. MEDVENE) Now, the cashmere fiber you found, did you examine any fibers from any items on 2169 to see whether or not the cashmere fiber you identified as being on Ronald Goldman's shirt and the Bundy hat was also on any other item at the crime scene?
Well, they were the linings from the gloves. The linings from both the Rockingham glove and the Bundy glove had cashmere fibers inside. And these question fibers matched up with the linings of the gloves.
Now, you mentioned that also on Mr. Goldman's shirt, you found certain blue-black fibers; is that correct?
Object to lack of foundation as far as "found." I think that misstates his testimony; same basis as before. I think it should be clear to the jury who found what.
Sustained.
Lay some foundation as to whether or not this was the one submitted by LAPD.
(BY MR. MEDVENE) Can you tell us where the blue-black -- where you received the blue-black cotton fibers from?
Well, all the fibers he's referring to were received in debris packets. They had been processed and supplied to me by the LAPD crime lab, so they came in actual debris packets.
Did you, yourself, do some of the scraping on Mr. Goldman's shirt while you were at the LAPD?
And did you also tell us yesterday that you personally found, at the FBI laboratory in Washington, certain hairs that were on the Bundy hat of Mr. Simpson?
Now, let's go back to the blue-black cotton fiber.
Did you find blue-black cotton fibers that, in your opinion, matched the blue-black cotton fibers found on Mr. Goldman's shirt?
Your Honor, I object again. I assume that he did find them in the debris packet. I object.
I'm tempted to overrule it because we're just going to make that question longer. But to satisfy you this one instance, make the question longer and lay a groundwork question to ascertain whether or not the comparisons were made from fibers that were removed from whatever source they were removed from, and in whatever form, whether it was this the debris packet or what.
(BY MR. MEDVENE) Can you describe for us the blue-black cotton fibers that you examined and where you received them from.
The blue-black cotton fibers were, again, as I said, taken from the debris packets from specific items: One, Ron Goldman's shirt; there was a debris packet.
The Rockingham glove, there was a debris packet and also socks from Rockingham.
Those are, again, all debris packets that I received.
From those packets, I removed blue-black cotton fibers and I did a comparison.
And did you find a blue-black cotton fiber in the debris packet of material from Ronald Goldman's shirt?
Did you find blue-black cotton fiber or fibers from the debris packet you examined containing material from the Rockingham glove?
Did you find blue-black cotton fibers from the debris packet you examined containing material from the Rockingham socks?
Now, did you then perform an examination to determine whether or not there was a match between the blue-black cotton fibers you found on Mr. Goldman's shirt, the Bundy hat -- excuse me -- blue-black cotton fibers you found on Mr. Goldman's shirt, the Rockingham glove, and the Rockingham socks?
Right. I did compare the fibers, as I said, that were taken from debris packets from the Rockingham glove, the Rockingham socks and Ronald Goldman's shirt. And I saw no differences between them. They could have originated from the same source.
Well, they were compared visually with comparison microscopes, just like -- similar to what I had told you before about comparing hairs, observing the visible microscopic characteristics as to color, shape and so forth.
They were then compared using fluorescents, as well as the color was compared instrumentally.
Would you put on the board, please, where you found blue-black cotton fibers with the same microscopic characteristics as those found on Mr. Goldman's shirt.
(BY MR. MEDVENE) Incidentally, did you find anything unusual about the blue-black cotton fibers that you've told us about when you examined them?
Just where the bluish coloration was found; it was only found in a band! On the fiber itself.
(BY MR. MEDVENE) And was that found on the band of the particular fibers that you examined that, in your opinion, had the same microscopic characteristics?
All the fibers that I'm telling you here had that same bluish -- it's a royal bluish coloration that made me believe they looked the same microscopically.
Well, it's just change in color along the length. You're following it microscopically, looking at -- actually's see that it goes from black to a royal-bluish coloration, then it goes back to black.
Did you prepare a chart depicting the microscopic characteristics of the blue-black cotton fibers that you found on Mr. Goldman's shirt, Mr. Simpson's socks, and the Rockingham glove?
I'd ask you if you mind coming over to the board and telling us if 531 is one of the charts that you prepared?
And could you step down and describe for the jury the significance of the pictures and what the pictures show.
Well, all of these pictures relate this bluish-black cotton fiber that -- or fibers that were recovered from the items as they're listed on the chart.
The Rockingham glove, and Goldman shirt, and from the socks over on the right.
I believe it's the same in both the first two rows of photographs.
The bottom one here, that's just another fiber from the Rockingham glove, 323, that was taken from Goldman, Q23, was taken from Goldman's shirt, as well.
There's other debris. When you take a photograph from a slide, you'll pick up background fibers and hairs; and you'll see those on the photographs, as well.
Did you find on Q23 at the bottom, anything else belonging to any of the victims in this case?
(Continuing) This hair -- this would have been one of the hairs that matched up with Nicole Brown. The fibers in the top photographs here -- can't see it too well here -- these are the cashmere fibers. Again the Rockingham glove and the Bundy glove both had cashmere lining; that's what they looked like.
Well, 532 is a chart that gives you an idea of the differences here in cotton fibers.
The blue cotton fibers on the left, they're actually the known fibers from his jeans. Blue jeans are made up of a bluish coloration cotton and a whitish coloration, depending on where you're looking at fibers. Most of them are combination.
This one was around the hair that was from Goldman's shirt.
That was another one of the fibers that matched up with Nicole Brown Simpson.
This is another fiber that was found. I think you can see this bluish coloration in areas. There was blue that showed through.
Did you compare the blue-black cotton fibers that you found on Mr. Goldman's shirt, the Rockingham glove, and the Rockingham socks, with any known sample of blue-black clothing?
If you don't have a known sample to compare the question sample to, as an experienced hair examiner and fiber examiner, what's the significance of the finding that, in your opinion, that the question fiber on the three different items of evidence match or are similar microscopically?
Well, it's significant. It's just another aspect of the work that I do in the laboratory.
The basic comparison would be one where you're comparing a known source of fabric with a questioned source. That's pretty straight forward.
The other type of work that I would do would be to attempt to link individual objects, individual areas, individual items of clothing found at different areas. I do this all the time by just the material that's on the surface, as that may have gotten there as a result of transfer.
And this is something that I do routinely, especially in cases involving serial crime.
Where we're looking at debris from different items, from different victims, trying to determine whether or not there's a commonality to them: Were all these victims in the same vehicle?
Were all these victims in contact with the same suspect?
Did they come in contact with the same types of fibers?
So we do that all the time. So this is no different; it's just that we didn't have a known source, and they're found in different locations. And the question is, can they be linked? Is it possible to link those items by some form of evidence?
In this particular case, I felt that I did with these cotton fibers.
And in your experience, could you tell -- can you tell whether, in your judgment, there had been some recent contact with the same item of clothing that had these blue-black cotton fibers on it that you just described?
The presence of fibers on evidence like this is, it falls in line with what I routinely find in a forensic laboratory; that is, they represent recent physical contact.
The fact that you find something on an item of clothing such as trace evidence, hair evidence, or fiber evidence, it's highly suggestive of more recent contact than something that had occurred at some time in the distant past.
The reason for this is that fibers have been shown not to persist very long, persist or last; they just don't hang around. The fibers that might be transferred onto a glove or to a shirt are then easily lost within a reasonable time, you know, short time span. They don't stay very long; otherwise, we'd be walking around with a lot of lint from a lot of different contacts that we have.
In fact, the washing machine is a good example. Routinely, you're picking up fibers, you're losing fibers as you go through life. And if you stop time at one particular point, the material that's found on that item -- and it's excellent from -- clothing that's from dead people because they don't move, they stop. That relates their most recent contacts; that's why you look at it.
(BY MR. MEDVENE) If a person was wearing two different articles of clothing, would you expect, in your experience, to find, in your experience, from one article of clothing deposited on the other article of clothing?
(BY MR. MEDVENE) In your experience -- you told us yesterday about primary and secondary transfers.
If a person is wearing two different articles of clothing, for example pants, socks, is it in your experience it's common for fiber to be transferred from one article of clothing pants, to the socks?
(BY MR. MEDVENE) Is the finding of a blue-black cotton fiber on the socks found in Mr. Simpson's bedroom consistent with him having worn an item of clothing made of such blue-black cotton fiber at the time he wore the socks?
As a hypothetical, if those were his socks, it would be consistent with that, yes.
(BY MR. MEDVENE) Incidentally, could the blue-black cotton fiber found on Mr. Simpson's socks have originated in the socks themselves?
In other words, would the socks contain, themselves, a blue-black cotton fiber?
No, they didn't come from the socks. I analyzed the socks; they're different fibers altogether.
Let me move, if I might, to get back to some other fibers that we're talking about.
Focusing now on the fibers again, did you find any other fibers than you have described on the Bundy knit hat?
Initially, I called them a rose-beige, appeared to have sort of a pinkish cast to them; they're Trilobal nylon, T-R-I-L-O-B-A-L carpet fibers. And it was found on the -- on the Bundy hat in my processing of the hat.
Carpet fibers are three-dimensional structures. They come in different shapes. This particular fiber has three lobes. And these three lobes may -- again, they may come in different shapes and different forms, depending on who made the fiber, what company made the fiber.
I think I had a picture of it, I believe.
Can you put up 530 (sic), please. (The instrument herein referred to as Photo of 92-94 Bronco - 1405 Nylon fiber was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 516.)
Yeah, that's the shape of it. That's the scanning electronic micrograph of the fiber -- of a fiber of that type, shows you the three-dimensional orientation of it. And it has three lobes, and they extend around from a central core. And the particular lobe, as you can see, they expand out. I called it the jack cross-section, initially looked like -- thinking back, when you're playing with jacks.
I didn't play with jacks; the girls played with jacks.
That's why I called it a jack cross-section. I remember seeing them.
That's Exhibit 516.
Incidentally, it's on the -- that's on the board. And what is that picture of?
What does it say on the board?
'92 through '94 Bronco, 1405 nylon.
1405 is just the type of nylon that was produced. It's a DuPont fiber, made by DuPont Company.
(BY MR. MEDVENE) Now, going back to where we were before we started describing what the trilobal was on your early examination.
Where did you find this kind of beige carpet fiber? On what items that are on the chart?
That would have been on the Bundy hat and the Rockingham glove. I removed the fiber from the Bundy hat, from the Rockingham glove. It came in one of the debris packets. From the glove.
And did you do an examination to determine whether or not the fiber -- the carpet fiber that you removed from the Bundy knit hat and the carpet fiber that you removed from the Rockingham glove, matched or had the same microscopic characteristics?
The fiber from the Bundy hat and the fiber from the debris packets from the Rockingham glove matched each other. Initially, I didn't have a source.
And tell us what kind of examination you did to determine whether or not they matched each other.
Well, these are compared again, visually, microscopically. I compared them using scanning electron microscopy, but the basic analysis would be comparison microscope, fluorescents, color comparison, infrared spectroscopy. Those are the main comparison techniques that were used for the fibers in question.
Can you just go through a little bit, because I don't think we picked it up yesterday, what each of those examinations when you're examining the carpet permits you to do.
Each -- each stage is just one point in the analysis. You're trying to determine who -- whether the fibers looked the same or looked different.
You kind of have checkpoints that you use. One is comparison visually, using white light, transmitted light. If they look the same as to shape, as to color, as -- as to size, as to internal microscopic characteristics, if there are no differences between them, then you go on to the next stage.
And then it might be fluorescents. You may use fluorescents; you may use polarized light, microscopy. Just -- you're examining the fiber under all polarized light.
A polarizing microscope allows you to look at fibers in a different environment, by passing polarized light through the fiber and blocking out extraneous light, you can see what are called interference colors; and these interference colors then will allow you to compare -- compare question and known fiber by interference colors.
But you can also identify the fiber using the colors. That's the nylon or polyester or acrylic or rayon or acetates. There's many different types. So the polarized light allows you to come up with some information to identify the type of fiber as a group, as a class of fiber.
The infrared spectrometer will allow a further analysis as to the specific type of nylon or type of polyester or type of acrylic. And that's another stage.
If you reached the polarized light, I say they appear to be nylon microscopically, the infrared spectrometer will then determine the type of nylon, and if results are the same as to the results of the instrumentation.
Microscopic spectrometry is another microscope, and the microscope is connected to some optical equipment that measures the light as it passes through the fiber, and we measure the physical light spectrum.
What I see and what we all see is a reflection of light off an object. The color -- for instance, the suit, some may see it as black, some may see it as blue. It's what we perceive it to be.
But the color of what you see is not necessarily -- and is often not just one color that went into making it, just like when you go buy paint, the paint on your wall is blue, but when they make it, they start with white and they squirt in a bunch of different things into it, and they make it blue the way you like it.
The same thing goes with fibers. They add a lot of different things. What the micro spectrometer does, it breaks it down through the microspec. It gives you peaks with the color absorbing light as it passes through it. So it's another point of comparison. So each point along the path are confirmations of the initial microscopic observations under white light.
Now, you said you looked at the fibers on the hat and glove and described that analysis for us.
Did you find any other fibers on any other items of evidence that you examined in this case?
Well, yes, there were other carpet fibers taken from debris packets, from three other items that were submitted to me, that had been removed from the cargo area of Mr. Simpson's Bronco.
There would have been a shovel; there was one fiber on a shovel debris; there was one fiber off a piece of plastic debris; and there was one fiber off a towel debris. And these were identified to me as coming from the cargo area of the Bronco.
Now, did you compare the carpet fibers that you told us about found on the Bundy knit hat and the Rockingham glove to the fibers you found on the towels, shovel, and plastic were indicated to you came from the cargo area of Mr. Simpson's Bronco?
Well, in -- all of the fibers could have originated from the same source; they all matched each other; they could have originated from the same source of fabric, same carpet.
Now, at the time you compared carpet fibers, what you thought were carpet fibers found on the Bundy knit hat, the Rockingham glove, and the three items you described in the back of Mr. Simpson's Bronco -- did you yet have a fiber sample from Mr. Simpson's Bronco?
Well, because I found it, first of all, and I wanted to determine a possible source. I had not seen the fiber before. I felt that fiber was rather unusual, from my experience.
I then asked for a carpet sample to be obtained from the Bronco, just to verify whether or not it was or could have been the source of those fibers.
Now, you said in looking at the fibers -- I think you said a moment ago, something -- it appeared they -- appeared to be unusual. Why -- what was it?
Well, the cross-section -- the color, I mean, there's a lot of colors. But the main thing to me, that struck me, was the cross-sectional shape, I had not seen that little jack cross-section.
And did there come a time when you received a carpet sample or samples from Mr. Simpson's Bronco delivered to you by the representatives of the LAPD?
And when you received it, what did you do with it? That is, the carpet sample or samples from Mr. Simpson's Bronco?
Well, the fibers were mounted to -- on glass microscope slides, and the comparison process was the same. That I used for the questioned fibers to determine whether or not these question fibers matched up with the known source of fibers.
I mean, again, I started with comparison microscope, polarized light, fluorescents, micro spectrometry, infrared spectroscopy.
And did you reach a conclusion whether the carpet fiber you found on the Bundy hat, the carpet fiber you found on the Rockingham glove, the carpet fiber you found on the three items that were found and sent to you in the cargo area of Mr. Simpson's Bronco, had any relationship to the carpet fiber from Mr. Simpson's Bronco?
Well, they all matched. They all matched the known sample of carpet from Mr. Simpson's Bronco.
KEY QUOTECould you put on the board for us, then -- we don't have the items for Mr. Simpson's car, but could you put one -- 2169 where you found the carpet that you believe was carpet from Mr. Simpson's Bronco.
Did you prepare a chart depicting the microscopic characteristics of the fiber that you found on the Rockingham glove and knit hat, as well as the three items from Mr. Simpson Bronco?
(BY MR. MEDVENE) I direct your attention to Exhibit 530, that has been placed on the easel.
Could you, if you wouldn't mind, go over to the chart and describe for the ladies and gentlemen of the jury and the Court what the chart depicts.
This chart represents photographs of the fibers under white light, by the four corner photographs, through the microscope.
And the center one here, center two photographs, both the K9, which would be known sample number 9 that came from the Bronco carpet, and this is a SEM or scanning electronic micrographic magnification is here, is about 480, as you can see. These other ones are about 250.
This would be from the Rockingham glove debris packet.
K14 that I just -- another one of the carpet samples that we got -- we had several carpet samples from the vehicle from different locations.
Q47 is the fiber from the knit cap debris, that's from what I removed.
Q3c is from the debris. If you look close, you can see a lot in the microscope. You train yourself to see a lot of things without having this particular help.
The first thing that I saw was this little shadowy area right on the end. You can see it goes right along here, see it down here, as well. See a little bit up here. As you follow the fiber microscopically, you move and you follow it along. You trail it on the microscope. You can actually see how this fiber is training orientations and you can get an idea as to what this fiber's cross-section is.
So I had an idea that it had little lobed ends on each one of these trilobal peaks, but I was able to verify that using scanning electron microscopy, which is a little different microscopic technique.
Can you point out if it shows on any of those what we're talking about when they we say "trilobal," what we're talking about when we say jack cross-section?
Okay.
Trilobal, again, the configuration -- there's three lobes coming off a central core, and there's a lot of different shapes and fibers, man-made fibers. They do a lot of neat things to them; there are a lot of reasons.
Carpet fibers, they make a lot of them trilobal because they hide dirt very well. You can see particles down into that in here, which I think is from the floor area of the vehicle.
But this trilobal shape matched up with this trilobal shape as to configuration here. You can see these lobes are squeezed together a little bit, but you're kind of catching it as it is on the slide and actually how it came out.
And I didn't really go into the production and all and how unique it may be, but this particular shape I hadn't seen in my experience. I felt it was unique.
That's it. I mean, that's why you have to use your imagination a little bit, but jacks have more than three lobes.
Here, we have this little knobby end. I thought that was unusual because I hadn't seen it before; that's a unique fiber as the shape.
The carpet fibers from the Bronco found on the Bundy hat and Rockingham glove, again, yesterday and today, we've talked some about primary transfer and secondary transfer.
In your opinion, as an expert doing this work for some 19 years, do you have an opinion as to the -- in what manner the carpet fibers from Mr. Simpson's Bronco could have been transferred to the Bundy knit hat and the Rockingham glove?
Well, it could have been -- again, it could have been either, could have been a primary transfer that these items actually were in contact with the carpeted surface at one point.
(BY MR. MEDVENE) In other words, the glove and the hat, one point, were sitting on the carpet in Mr. Simpson's Bronco?
(BY MR. MEDVENE) Could you indicate now on the board, because previously we had carpet fiber up before you identified it -- could you indicate the Bronco carpet fiber and the items where it was found?
Is it reasonable to conclude, as a fiber expert with your years of experience, with a reasonable degree of scientific certainty, that the Bronco carpet fiber found on the three items in the cargo area of Mr. Simpson's Bronco, on the Bundy hat, and the Rockingham glove, all originated from a Bronco with carpet identical to the one driven by Mr. Simpson?
Well, it's reasonable. It could have originated from a Bronco like his, yes.
Let's take a ten-minute recess.
Ladies and gentlemen, don't talk about the case; don't form or express any opinion.
Well, they all matched. They all matched the known sample of carpet from Mr. Simpson's Bronco.
The fact that you find something on an item of clothing such as trace evidence, hair evidence, or fiber evidence, it's highly suggestive of more recent contact than something that had occurred at some time in the distant past.
All the hairs from known standards, the question hairs, from the caps, from the bedroom, was also a cap from the Bronco, and the hairs from the crime-scene items, all exhibited the same characteristics.
In this particular case, I felt that I did with these cotton fibers... because of the matching characteristics of the blue-black cotton fibers.