📄 Redirect examination of Werner Spitz (part 1) — Tuesday, November 12, 1996
Address:
C:\DEPT103\CIVIL\1996\NOV\12\REDIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-WERNER.DOC
TRIAL
▲ Day 13 of 57

Redirect examination of Werner Spitz (part 1)

Witness: Dr. Werner Spitz
Examiner: Robert Baker
Called by: Defense • Date: Tuesday, November 12, 1996 • Utterances: 103
Plaintiffs' attorney Medvene conducts redirect of Dr. Werner Spitz, allowing him to explain his opinions on wound mechanics, blood distribution, and the rapid sequence of Nicole Brown's neck wounds. The examination culminates in Dr. Spitz physically demonstrating the stabbing motions on himself — triggering a dispute between counsel over how to preserve the nonverbal testimony for the record.
1 Q:

Would you explain your last answer?

2 A:

The --

3 MR. BAKER:

Please ask a question, Your Honor.

4 THE COURT:

Overruled. Go ahead.

5 DR. WERNER SPITZ:

The injuries on Nicole Simpson's hands are superficial scratches. They are not through the skin. They are not even far into the skin. They are abrasion type injuries which scuff off the upper most layer of the skin, the epidermis and then dry and become dark, dark brown or black. These kind of injuries do not bleed.

The blood vessels in the skin are deeper down. So --

6 Q:

How do you -- deep?

7 A:

In the case of fingernail marks, if you look at the picture of the fingernail marks, you see that the depth of a fingernail mark is entirely different. All you need to do is display it on the camera, on the -- on the television.

There is a depth to the fingernail mark, the fingernail markings into the skin. The fingernail digs into the skin and there is a crater, in the case of Nicole Simpson's abrasions, on the fingers, those don't bleed.

8 Q:

Now, you gave an opinion about whether or not you believe there would be blood or much blood on the assailant who slashed the throat of Nicole Brown Simpson by cutting the carotid arteries?

9 A:

Please understand, first of all, the victim shields the assailant. Her body shields him.

Secondly, I'm not sure that necessarily the hand was held across the face, it probably was at one time or another. The same affect would be from holding the hair back. She's got fairly long hair and it's easiest and most available to be grabbed and pulled back.

The further -- when you hold a person over down like so (indicating).

10 MR. BAKER:

I'm going to object to this. I'm going to object to his demonstrating that. He should be required to answer a question.

11 THE COURT:

What is the question?

12 MR. BAKER:

I don't know.

13 Q:

(BY MR. MEDVENE) We were -- we were discussing, Your Honor, blood. The likelihood that blood would not be on the assailant if the assailant slashed Ms. Brown's throat. And the witness was answering the question and attempting to explain why, and attempting to explain the position and shielding by the -- by the assailant of the blood.

14 THE COURT:

All right.

Finish your demonstration.

15 DR. WERNER SPITZ:

If the victim is held like this over the ground, and the throat is slashed or stabbed, I can't -- I don't -- I can't see why there should be blood on the assailant. The assailant is behind her, either holding her head like so or holding the hair back.

All I can say is that the neck was taut, otherwise the knife would never have gone into the vertebral column. She bled. She bled out tremendous amounts, but downward and forward not upward and sideways and certainly not through her body.

16 Q:

Now, with respect to Mr. Goldman, what is the basis for your opinion that there would not necessarily be much blood on the assailant as a result of the assailant's --

17 A:

Goldman was held in a grip, too. The same way, only the slashing of the throat did not materialize and remained superficial because at that time, there was no more resistance.

When Goldman was killed, he was held and all the assailant had to do was leave go. That's when Goldman collapsed.

He's unconscious, unresponsive. Goldman was not dead at this time. Goldman was left dying. He was not expired. He was expiring. He was -- he still had a heart beat, a mild heart beat. Not a good heart beat because he had lost a lot of blood. But he died with time. He didn't die at that moment.

18 MR. MEDVENE:

Can you put up 2051 on the board, please.

19 Q:

(BY MR. MEDVENE) You wanted to give an explanation with respect to 2051 and the wounds and what appears to be blood shown. Could you give that explanation now?

20 (Exhibit No. 2051 is displayed.)
21 A:

This is blood that I think was transferred from the clothing. My opinion is that somebody moved the clothing to the side to take the picture. This is a very unimpressive wound.

But it's a fatal wound. Because this wounds goes into the aorta. This is not a very big wound at all. This is what, three-quarter of an inch or maybe an inch or half an inch, but it goes into the aorta. That's the problem. This wound in the skin looks like nothing.

22 Q:

By the way, does the autopsy report refer to this wound as a fatal wound?

23 A:

The autopsy report refers to it as a fatal wound. The autopsy report describes that this is a wound that goes into the aorta. By necessity, it would be a fatal wound and it refers to it. It says so in the report.

24 Q:

Exhibit 2053 not 2051. Why would there be no protuberance in the retroperitoneal space if there was one to two quarts of blood?

25 A:

May I have the chart back that we used on Friday?

26 Q:

Yes.

27 A:

With --

28 Q:

Yes, sir. May I go get it, Your Honor?

29 (Nods in the affirmative.)
30 (Diagram displayed with section of human and aorta and knife cut through it.)
31 Q:

Can you explain, sir?

32 A:

When the aorta is injured like it is here, this is the stab wounds in the skin. This is the back. This is the front. This is the abdominal cavity. There is the retroperitoneal cavity.

This is the area where the bleeding occurred, up and down. This is a cupped section through the middle of the body. This is the stab wounds. This is the aorta.

When there is bleeding into this area, you have the back, and there is a vertebral body and there are lower ribs. So you don't -- there's no protuberance here that back the muscles, shield it.

We all know that when you eat a heavy meal you have all this food in the stomach, your abdomen protrudes because there's nothing in the front here except skin and a little fat or sometimes more fat. But in the back, there is heavy muscle that precludes swelling. People who die from a ruptured aneurysm. An aneurysm is a bubble of the aorta that suddenly busts and they bleed into the area in question here.

And I go and do an autopsy on a person like that. I don't know what they died from. All I know is that they were found dead and I open the body and I don't find any protuberance.

It would be wonderful if I looked, opened the body and I looked at a protuberance. I wouldn't have to do an autopsy. This bleeding here never protubes (sic). There is no such thing. That's a strange type of medicine.

33 Q:

Do we have 1977?

THE COURT REPORTER: Excuse me, what number is that diagram, please?

34 MR. GELBLUM:

2025.

35 (Referring to exhibit 2025, a diagram.)
36 A:

Yes.

37 Q:

And I want to put that up if I might.

38 MR. FOSTER:

You want it up?

39 MR. MEDVENE:

Yes.

40 MR. GELBLUM:

1977.

41 (Exhibit No. 1977 displayed.)
42 Q:

(BY MR. MEDVENE) Can you -- would you tell us what that photo taken by the coroner shows?

43 MR. BAKER:

Asked and answered Your Honor. That was all gone into on Friday.

44 THE COURT:

Overruled.

45 DR. WERNER SPITZ:

This area here.

46 Q:

(BY MR. MEDVENE) The area in the front?

47 A:

The yellow area, this area is the area of the aorta which is a pipe opened up.

In other words, the aorta was slit across the side and opened up like so. And it shows a nearly through and through cut nearly severed.

This tissue here, by the way, these two holes are origins of other arteries. The aorta is the main artery of the body and from it, all the other arteries emanate and these two are origins of two other arteries.

This dark tissue, all around that the aorta is resting on -- is totally infiltrated with blood tar.

This should be yellow, like chicken fat or like you can see in the wounds of the thigh where you can see. Because of the slicing, you can see the cut and then the yellow fat underneath.

If you want to put this on, then I can show this. There is --

48 MR. BAKER:

Your Honor, who's directing the examination?

(BY MR. MEDVENE) While that's being put on --

49 THE COURT:

Overruled.

50 Q:

(BY MR. MEDVENE) Can you draw the significance of the homogeneity of the fat and what that has to do with blood pressure?

Steve, you want to put the aorta picture back up?

51 MR. BAKER:

Outside the scope, Your Honor.

52 THE COURT:

Overruled. But I may sustain it for relevance.

53 (Referring to previous photo.)
54 MR. MEDVENE:

We're going to tie it in in one second.

55 DR. WERNER SPITZ:

The fact that the entire area, every where that this picture shows is infiltrated with blood indicates that there was a blood pressure at the time, because otherwise the bleeding would not have homogeneity infiltrated all this tissue with the same extent of bleeding.

56 Q:

What's the significance of there being a blood pressure in terms of the sequencing of the aorta wound and any other wounds?

57 A:

What the significance is, is that the heart was pumping with vigor like at the outset of the altercation.

58 Q:

And does that indicate anything to you in terms of the timing of the wounds to the aorta and the timing of the cutting of the jugular vein?

59 A:

This supports that this occurred early on. Early on in the course of this struggle and certainly before the jugular vein, because the jugular vein is in the -- in the neck is covered by muscle, by skin, and other soft tissues. And when that bled, it would bleed into these tissues.

There is some bleeding described along the wound track, but there's no bleeding anywhere else here because this was opened up and there is no bleeding in this area under the skin.

The bleeding outward would have occurred to some extent. But most of the bleeding from a semi severed jugular vein would have been inside. There is no such bleeding.

60 Q:

Now, Mr. Baker talked in a hypothetical about bleeding for five minutes or more from a cut in the jugular vein. And can you fight, or couldn't you fight? Is there any evidence that you found that that jugular vein was bleeding for five minutes or more before death?

61 A:

No. There's no -- no five minute jugular vein bleeding, not before death. Maybe after, after Goldman was in the -- collapsed in the four by six area that the jugular vein still oozed out some blood. But the jugular vein -- but it's nature is a vein, not an artery.

Veins don't bleed like arteries. The aorta bleeds with great force, very extensive. As I described on Friday, would hit -- a severed artery would hit a 12-foot ceiling. A vein wouldn't do that, whether it's a jugular vein or any other vein.

62 Q:

Is there any indication from an examination of the tissue around the jugular vein of swelling or anything that would support a significant bleeding?

63 A:

No swelling, no evidence of bleeding under the skin to any extent or under the chest because that's where it would percolate downward. In an upright individual, that's where it would go.

64 Q:

In other words, if it was bleeding, it would have to be somewhere.

65 A:

Where is that blood?

KEY QUOTE
66 Q:

Now, reference was made by Mr. Baker to certain stab wounds to Ms. Brown's neck, and your basis for saying that they occurred in rapid succession.

67 MR. MEDVENE:

I want to get the board that shows 2015 and 2013, please.

68 (Mr. Foster complies. Indicating to display board marked "Sharp Force Injuries and Blunt Force Trauma to Head Face and Neck of Ms. Brown." )
69 MR. MEDVENE:

I'm sorry?

THE COURT REPORTER: May I have the number of that, please.

70 MR. MEDVENE:

Yes. Number 2013 and 2015.

71 Q:

(BY MR. MEDVENE) Dr. Spitz, would you come down, if you would, with your pointer and point out what it is about those wounds that leads to your conclusion that they were struck in rapid succession and very quickly.

72 (Witness complies approaches board.)
73 MR. LEONARD:

May I, Your Honor?

74 (Mr. Leonard repositions himself in courtroom.)
75 A:

There are four wounds on the left side of the neck in a vertical line all in one area.

There is the wounds across the front of the neck which starts, as you can see here, right at this point (indicating).

If you make a schematic out of that -- Do you have a felt writer?

76 MR. PETROCELLI:

Felt -- or I have --

77 DR. WERNER SPITZ:

There you go. If you make a schematic out of this, you have four wounds, one, two, three, four, and you have the fifth wound right there. This one is the fifth wound. The first, the second, the third, the fourth.

I do not know whether this is one, two, three and four. I -- or whether this is one, two, three and four.

I don't know whether they go from the top to the bottom or the bottom to the top. But I do know that this is one action. One action in which there is, like I demonstrated on Friday, a very rapid succession before there is possibility of moving.

There is a holding and no movement sideways, because otherwise they wouldn't all be oriented in the one perfect line. And this one, extending from the same area, this is one unit.

78 Q:

And where does the -- where does the slashing movement of the throat start?

79 A:

The slashing movement starts in the extension of the left lower lip, the left angle of the mouth. If you run that, a vertical line right through the bottom, that's where the deep side slash starts. The actual slash starts much further over in proximity -- Right here.

80 Q:

And how long did it take, in your opinion, in your judgment, to deliver those stab wounds to the neck and then the slash cutting her carotid artery?

81 A:

One, two, three, four, angh (witness makes grunt sound) --

KEY QUOTE
82 Q:

Seconds?

83 A:

That is seconds?

84 MR. MEDVENE:

Good time to break.

85 MR. BAKER:

Let me put, for the record, there were four movements straight down by Dr. Spitz and a movement across from right to left. The first four went straight down and his right hand was moving in a vertical position from top to bottom and went down four straight times. Before then, he moved his hand over to the left and moved it across in a horizontal movement from left to right.

86 MR. MEDVENE:

Dr. Spitz, where you made the movements were where the stab wounds appear in the picture on the neck; is that correct?

87 A:

Let me do it again.

88 THE COURT:

Okay. Jurors. Jurors.

89 JUROR:

Yes.

90 THE COURT:

You're a juror. You have to watch the testimony and you have to watch the witness as the witness is testifying. All right.

91 DR. WERNER SPITZ:

Difficult to. Difficult to do it on me, but this is how it went.

92 (Witness demonstrates on himself.)
93 MR. BAKER:

Now --

94 DR. WERNER SPITZ:

I'm sorry.

95 MR. MEDVENE:

Excuse me, Mr. Baker.

96 MR. BAKER:

I'm sorry.

97 DR. WERNER SPITZ:

One, two, three, four.

98 MR. BAKER:

So now the record reflects that in this demonstration he --

99 MR. MEDVENE:

If the Court please, I wonder if Mr.` Baker has an opportunity --

100 MR. BAKER:

No. I want the record to show, this is -- this is visual testimony. I want the record to be complete with the visual demonstration he just gave because it was nonverbal communication.

And now, instead of having four vertical up and down motions with his hand, he had four straight in movements underneath the left ear and then a movement across, from left to right across the neck area.

101 THE COURT:

The record will indicate that the witness had a pencil or a pen in his hand, made four movements into the neck area and then across the neck.

102 MR. MEDVENE:

Thank you.

103 THE COURT:

Okay. 1:30, ladies and gentlemen. Don't talk about the case, don't discuss the case.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (5)

Dr. Spitz
One, two, three, four, angh (witness makes grunt sound) -- Seconds?
Dr. Spitz physically re-enacts the stab sequence and slash, conveying the lethal speed of the attack in a visceral, non-verbal moment.
Dr. Spitz
The assailant is behind her, either holding her head like so or holding the hair back... I can't see why there should be blood on the assailant.
Core opinion exonerating the killer from expected blood transfer — directly relevant to absence of blood evidence on Simpson.
Dr. Spitz
Goldman was left dying. He was not expired. He was expiring... He still had a heart beat, a mild heart beat.
Establishes that Goldman was incapacitated but not yet dead when the assailant released him, bearing on timeline and manner of death.
Dr. Spitz
Where is that blood?
Rhetorical challenge to Baker's five-minute jugular vein bleeding hypothesis — no tissue swelling or pooling found to support it.
Dr. Spitz
These kind of injuries do not bleed. The blood vessels in the skin are deeper down.
Explains why Nicole's hand abrasions would not produce blood, countering any inference that she caused cuts on the assailant's hands.

Evidence (5)

Exhibit 2051
Photo of a wound — Dr. Spitz identifies it as a small but fatal aorta wound, blood possibly transferred from clothing
displayed, discussed
Exhibit 2053
Photo referenced in connection with retroperitoneal bleeding and absence of protuberance
discussed
Exhibit 2025
Diagram of human body section showing aorta and knife cut path
displayed, used for anatomical explanation
Exhibit 1977
Coroner's photo showing the aorta opened up, nearly severed, with blood-infiltrated surrounding tissue
displayed, discussed for blood pressure and wound sequencing
Exhibits 2013 and 2015
Display board: 'Sharp Force Injuries and Blunt Force Trauma to Head Face and Neck of Ms. Brown' — showing four vertical neck wounds and throat slash
displayed, Dr. Spitz approached board with pointer to demonstrate wound pattern

Notable Exchanges (3)

Robert BakerEdward MedveneHiroshi Fujisaki
After Dr. Spitz physically demonstrates the stabbing motions on himself, Baker and Medvene argue over how to make the nonverbal demonstration part of the record. Baker insists on describing the movements precisely; Fujisaki ultimately narrates a neutral description for the record.
heated/procedural
Robert BakerHiroshi Fujisaki
Baker objects to Dr. Spitz demonstrating without a pending question; Fujisaki asks 'What is the question?' Baker admits 'I don't know,' and Fujisaki overrules and tells the witness to finish his demonstration.
revealing — Baker caught without a viable objection
Hiroshi FujisakiJuror
Fujisaki interrupts the demonstration to admonish a juror to watch the witness instead of looking away.
procedural

Light Moments (2)

Dr. Spitz
Dr. Spitz attempts to demonstrate stab motions on himself, says 'Difficult to do it on me' — then proceeds anyway.
Edward Medvene
Medvene says 'Good time to break' immediately after Dr. Spitz grunts and mimes the killing sequence in seconds.

Credibility Attacks (1)

⚔ Robert Baker's hypothesis
evidentiary rebuttal
Dr. Spitz directly refutes Baker's five-minutes-of-jugular-vein-bleeding hypothetical by noting no tissue swelling, no sub-skin bleeding track, and no blood accumulation consistent with that duration — asking 'Where is that blood?'

Witness Demeanor

(Witness demonstrates holding victim and slashing position in the witness stand)
(Witness approaches display board with pointer)
(Witness draws schematic on board with felt marker)
(Witness makes grunt sound — 'angh' — while demonstrating stabbing motions)
(Witness demonstrates stab sequence on himself — four movements into neck area, then slash across neck)

Objections

7 objections (0 sustained, 5 overruled)
Proceeding 8226 • 103 utterances • Defense witness
Civil Trial
Department 103
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📂 NOV 12, 1996 📄 Redirect examination of Werner
NOV 12, 1996 KRT DvH TD