(BY MR. MEDVENE) When you say, Agent Deedrick, in discussing with us the matching between Nicole Brown Simpson known hairs and the question hairs, you've described Mr. Goldman's known hairs and question hairs, what is it that you're determining when you say there's a match or whatever word you feel is appropriate to use?

Well, when a question hair is matched to a known hair sample, we say it exhibits the same microscopic characteristics and is consistent with having originated from that person.

Hair examinations are not to the point where you can say absolutely that this hair came from the person. The known hairs, we know that. That's why we call them "K" or knowns.

But with question hairs, we don't say absolutely. We never have. And we also qualify that in our reports that they're not an absolute form of identification.

And even though you say, as you've just told us, that it's not an absolute form of identification, then what, in your opinion, is the significance of the findings that you make when you use the term "match."

Objection. Vague.

Overruled.

Well, with regards to hairs, what I found, through my experience of looking at hairs through 19 years now, is it's unusual to find two people that have hairs that exhibit the same microscopic characteristics. I have reasonable doubt, no difficulty in distinguishing one hair sample from the next hair sample because of the variety that's out there. It makes -- it's very significant, in my opinion, when you can associate or match a hair, a questioned hair with a known hair sample. 'Cause it's just not going to match just anybody chosen at random out of the population.

(BY MR. MEDVENE) How many known hair samples have you examined over your career?

Well, at least.

Irrelevant.

Overruled.

At least 10,000, probably more.

(BY MR. MEDVENE) And has there ever been a case where you haven't been able to differentiate between the known sample from the victim and the sample from the suspect?

Your Honor, that is vague and it's irrelevant.

Sustained.

(BY MR. MEDVENE) We had started talking about Negroid limb hair. You told us earlier that you found certain Negroid limb hair on Mr. Goldman's shirt; is that correct?

That's right.

Going back to the chart, did you find Negroid limb hairs on any other items of evidence that are listed on the chart?

On the Rockingham glove.

Would you mind writing that on the chart?

Can you describe for us, the type of examination that you conducted to reach your conclusion that there were Negroid limb hairs on Mr. Goldman's shirt and on the Rockingham glove?

Well, it's simply a microscopic identification. Once the hairs are on the slide, it's just a matter of looking at it and drawing from your own experience. As I mentioned before, it's possible to distinguish different hairs in different body areas.

Is it possible to associate these hairs with a specific individual?

No.

Why is that?

Well, limb hairs are not as good as head hairs and pubic hairs for association purposes. What we're saying is that these limb hairs, arm hairs or leg hairs originated from a Negroid individual. I didn't compare these two hairs together. And if I did, it would not mean as much as a head hair or pubic hair.

And again, it wouldn't mean as much because?

It wouldn't mean as much simply because they don't suppose enough individual characteristics like head hairs and pubic hairs do for individualization.

Now, you told us earlier that you found certain Negroid head hairs on Mr. Goldman's shirt; is that correct?

Right. There was one Negroid head hair.

Did you compare that head hair with the known head hair of Mr. Simpson?

I did, yes.

And what type of comparison did you make?

Same type comparison, with a comparison microscope.

And based on your examination, what did you conclude?

Well, that one hair matched the known hairs of O.J. O.J. Simpson, four head hairs.

And when you -- when you say it matched, what do you base that on?

No significant differences. They looked the same microscopically.

Would you put that on the chart, please?

Excuse me, Agent Deedrick, under the Rockingham glove its says COHH. What did that stand for?

That's Caucasian origin. It's kind of a short hand.

And the HH?

Head hair. Negroid would be NO and Mongoloid, MO just for expediency.

Now, with respect to the other items of evidence listed on the chart, did you find any Negroid head hair that matched Mr. Simpson's?

I did.

And on which item?

It would have been the Bundy hat.

Would you mind putting that down, please?

Now, using the primary and secondary methods of transfer that you've talked to us about before, based on your expertise, can you give us an opinion as to how those head hairs were deposited on Mr. Goldman's shirt, first off.

Objection. Lack of foundation. Calls for speculation.

Overruled.

There was only one, and again, one head hair that was found on Ron Goldman's shirt. And again, that could have been the result of actual physical contact with a body that had a hair on the surface of the clothes or it could have been directly as the head making contact with -- With the clothing; with the shirt. It could have been either.

(BY MR. MEDVENE) And how about your finding that -- How many head hairs on the Bundy hat that matched Mr. Simpson?

There were 12.

And then, your opinion of how those head hairs might have been deposited on the Bundy hat --

Same objection.

Overruled.

Well, it depends on where you get hairs on hats. To reach that conclusion in this case, most of the hairs came from inside the hat which suggests primary transfer.

(BY MR. MEDVENE) What does that mean in that case, say, primary transfer.

Objection. Vague.

Overruled.

(BY MR. MEDVENE) Now, have you ever found a case in the 10,000 you examined, where party A had the same microscopic characteristics of head hair as party B?

Your Honor, lack of foundation. Irrelevant and vague.

Sustained as to the last.

Sustained.

Sustained as to vagueness "party A and -- A and party B."

(BY MR. MEDVENE) Have you ever encountered a situation in the 10,000 odd that you've examined, where the head hairs from one individual matched microscopically with the head hairs of another individual?

Objection. Same objections, Your Honor.

Overruled.

(BY MR. MEDVENE) Now, you said on the Bundy hat you found 12 head hairs that matched Mr. Simpson's. Do you recall where you found them?

Well, I mentioned -- I mentioned about, I think there were about nine inside -- inside the hat. The others were found on the outside of the hat. Two of the hairs I removed myself.

And where did you remove them from?

I -- they were removed from the inside -- they actually had entwined themselves into the fabric yarn of the hat.

Your Honor, I'm going to object and move to strike on the basis that he just testified he only removed two himself. He can't know where the other ones were removed from. There's a lack of foundation.

Lay a foundation as to the other seven.

(BY MR. MEDVENE) With respect to the head hairs, other than the two that you found embedded inside the hat, where were they found?

Same objection.

Foundation. Overruled.

I would have to base that on the information provided to me by the police department, debris packets. And on the debris packets, they indicate --

Your Honor, calls for hearsay. Move to strike.

Overruled.

Look at the debris packet. In the debris packet it was listed as to exactly where that hair was removed that was in the packet and I used that as a basis of my statement.

(BY MR. MEDVENE) And where was it removed from?

Well, the other 7 --

I'm going to object. I'm sorry.

Same Objection, Your Honor. Hearsay.

Overruled. The witness said he read it from the debris packet.

As I said, those other hairs were identified as coming from the inside of the hat.

(BY MR. MEDVENE) Now, is there any significance, as an expert in this area, in the fact that two of the hairs matching Mr. Simpson's were found embedded in the fabric?

Well, hairs, from my experience, that are in -- actually embedded in fabric, are -- it's often the case that they had been there a while; they just work their way into the fabric. We see that on blankets, sometimes, as well as other items, knit items.

Is there any greater significance for matching 12 head hairs, as you did in this case, to a known head hair of Mr. Simpson's, than there is to matching one questionable head hair to a known sample?

Yeah. I think I went into this before a little bit as to independent individual variables. You have 12 hairs; each one has -- it falls within a range of characteristics of the known standards. You have 12 independent associations. Obviously, that has more significance than a single association.

Did you prepare a chart depicting the microscopic characteristics of the head hairs you found on the Bundy knit hat that you say matched the known four head hairs of Mr. Simpson?

Right. I prepared two charts.

I'm going place on the board, 524.

(BY MR. MEDVENE) Agent Deedrick, would you be good enough to tell me if you caused that board to be prepared?

I did.

And what does it indicate?

Well, the top row are photographs of known head hairs that were taken from the head of O.J. Simpson. And the bottom row are hairs that are questioned hairs taken from, I believe, different areas of the knit hat.

And I can't see all the way down. If I could step down and take a look.

Could you?

Yeah.

Right. These are all from from the knit hat, different hairs that, again, that I photographed the same way that I photographed the top hairs. I have them lined up as best I could as to give you an idea of the range of characteristics and how some of the associations that I was looking at would be represented, as to the pigmentation, the distribution of the pigment, coloration, the fineness of the hair, the thickness of the hair, things of that nature.

Could you take us through the chart, if you would, and explain to the jury why you feel the particular K numbers are known Mr. Simpson hair matches, the particular Q numbers that you have on the chart.

Okay. Again, it would be just from describing some of the characteristics that I was looking at, the hair samples, most of the hairs that I -- that I -- in fact, almost all of the hair samples I got from Mr. Simpson, I had a brownish coloration they're a little bit different than what I typically find in hairs of Negroid origin. They tend to be a little darker. And little heavier clumping pigmentation often makes the hair almost opaque they're very easy to see, very distinctive, one-sided pigmentation. Some of the pictures show that patches in the pigmentation that you see.

Again, you see it here on this side; this hair is a little more gray-brown. And again, it ranges in thicknesses from some of the finer hairs and some of the thicker hairs, just gives you an idea of what I compared.

And why did you pick these particular known hairs?

It's just a selection based on what I was looking at to demonstrate similarities of the characteristics.

Can you go through or pick any of the pictures and talk about some of the particular areas or microscopic characteristics that were significant to you.

Yeah. I think you've already done that pretty much.

The main point of comparison would have been the coloration. And what you can't see is the shape of the hair. I mean, you kind of see a little arc to it, but you really don't see the shape of the overall hair.

That's another key point of comparison, because some hairs of black-headed individuals are very tightly coiled; others are relatively separate.

This one, he had more of an S-curve to it, and the same -- both question hairs and known hairs.

The coloration: I mentioned the pigmentation distribution. Dark hairs illustrate this very well. There were a number of these, as you can see, dark pigmentation of the lower portion of the hair; and just happens, the pigment tends to group itself on one side.

Medullation -- not a lot of medullation. I mean the medulla in the central canal, that wasn't that obvious.

The thickness of the cuticle, actually, it was relatively fine. It wasn't real thick.

Protrusion, how the scales protruded away from the cuticle, didn't really protrude away too much.

Again, that's a another variable used for comparison, protrusion of cuticle, thickness of cuticle, the delineation or how easy to see the inner border of the cuticle, which is this outside clear layer, the size of the pigment granules, and I'll find a medium in size. The presence or absence of clumping, patching, distribution of the pigment, ovoid bodies, and fusi, cortical fusi, they were not present to any significant degree.

Now, another point of comparison I had was the root. Again it doesn't show it here. I compared the root, as well as the tip of the hair.

Again, two-dimensional. Keep that in mind.

You say two-dimensional as compared with what?

Three.

And?

The real world.

And the real world is what you're actually seeing and not the photograph?

That's right.

Now, again, the pictures on this chart, did you take them?

I did.

Did you prepare another chart of Mr. Simpson's hairs?

I did.

The known hairs and also the questioned hairs?

Same idea.

Put on the board 525.

(BY MR. MEDVENE) Could you go through for us what 525 is.

525. Again, here we have, again, six known hairs that are photographed on the top portion of the chart. The bottom six are question hairs. Most of them came from the cap. One of the hairs originated -- identified as coming from Ron Goldman's shirt. And the same characteristics and descriptions apply. I don't need to go into all of those again because distribution of the pigment, the coloration, the range in characteristics, everything I mentioned before.

I tried to line them up so they correspond top to bottom. There might be some variations in some of the thickness in the orientation, and also again how the photograph was taken. If it looks like it's on the right side or the left side of that distribution, just how the hair is laying on the stage when I -- when I took the picture.

Now, you said you found the -- you compared the known hairs of Mr. Simpson with the questioned hairs from the knit cap and you found those matched. And certain of the slides relate to that; is that correct?

That's right. Five of the six.

And could you go -- because you've spoken about the other chart, 524, also matched the number of the questioned hairs from the Bundy cap with the known hairs, right?

That's right. That's right.

Now this one also deals with Mr. Goldman's shirt?

That's right. So we have 11 and one -- essentially, 11 from the cap, one from the shirt.

Could you -- we've talked about the match between Mr. Simpson's hair and the hairs found on knit cap.

Could you go through a little bit of detail for us with respect to the shirt.

Why did you feel that the -- why was it your expert opinion that Mr. Simpson's known hair matched the hair on Mr. Goldman's shirt.

Well, when I say the hair matched the known hairs, the exhibit, the same microscopic characteristics, I put them side by side, they appeared the same in all respects. If I saw something significantly different, even the slightest difference; they were right on with the actual known hairs from Mr. Simpson.

Did you compare the Negroid hair found on Mr. Goldman's shirt and the hair found on the Bundy hat with any other hair samples from other people that were submitted to you by the police department?

I did.

And what was the purpose of doing that?

Well, elimination standards. It's not an uncommon practice for a police department to submit elimination standards from individuals who may have been at the crime scene, who may have handled the evidence, who may have had old -- removed the body or bodies, and who may have actually processed, maybe, some of the evidence in the laboratories.

So I received a lot of elimination standards, hair standards from Caucasian individuals, Mongoloid individuals, and Negroid individuals.

And from what institutions?

The LAPD.

Where else?

Coroner's office. There were detectives, a number of the detectives that were there, and the crime -- crime lab people. I believe that's pretty much all.

And based on the comparisons you did, were there any hair matches by any of those individuals with the hair that you say was Mr. Simpson's found on the Bundy cap and the Rockingham glove?

Only one that it could?

Why, in this case, yes.

Is Mr. Simpson?

The only one I matched it to.